00:13:52.060There's plenty of reasons to kind of dispute the accuracy of that.
00:13:55.080But I went with that because that's the only document that speaks about his origin.
00:13:59.400But yeah, there are certainly there are other people that think that he was probably from Ethiopia or from Sudan. And I think they kind of based that off of the limited descriptions of his appearance or of the kind of activities of slave traders during that time. But yeah, I just went with the document, even though there is reason to dispute it.
00:14:21.740And I think that it's really beautiful the way that you work in the aspects of his African
00:14:25.420heritage in the book, because again, I don't know how much of this you're drawing from the sources,
00:14:29.680but that he grew up until the age of what, about 12, probably in Africa. And then, so he has memory
00:14:35.720of it, but it's been suppressed. But as he's in Japan, in your book, you're showing him
00:14:39.340kind of remembering so much stuff. So it's a way to explain that part of his life as well.
00:14:45.220So is that always part of your plan to write it, to have, to bring in his memories of Africa as
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00:16:48.500The world of Sonic the Hedgehog has been thrust into a not-so-dark, not-so-stormy, hard-boiled detective story
00:17:50.460Actually, in earlier drafts, I wrote it more chronologically,
00:17:54.400where a lot of his childhood was kind of at the front.
00:17:57.360And then working with the editor, she suggested that, you know,
00:18:00.160the book really should start with his arrival in Japan.
00:18:02.400And then you kind of work that in. So we kind of like significantly reworked it to have that come throughout the novel, which I think worked really well. That part of it is so it's based off of the actual customs of the of the Macra tribe. But as far as his childhood and that is all fictionalized, there's nothing really recorded about that. So that's not based off of any sourcing.
00:18:28.860And there's something I just wanted to bring it up because it really stuck with me.
00:18:32.180And I just took a screen capture of this part of your book in the afterward where you're
00:18:35.440talking about the difference between written sources and oral traditions.
00:19:17.700But you have no idea if that's who he is or if he felt that he had to be that way.
00:19:23.120You know, I can't tell you if Yasuke was proud or happy or sad, depressed, bitter.
00:19:30.140We don't know any of his kind of internal world because we don't have any written record from him.
00:19:36.260And so but then like kind of expanding that out further, that's true to some extent about most of the histories of cultures that practice oral history.
00:19:48.280And it made me think that now, again, I it's been a long time since I've been in school, so maybe things have changed.
00:19:54.500But I know when I was in school learning about indigenous history, it was all based off of observations from settlers.
00:20:02.360And so it's it's kind of amazing and a little bit depressing as well to think of how much history is unknown or possibly just lost because we don't have written records from from some cultures.
00:20:17.520Oh, exactly. And that's where I think that historical fiction can really come in and help fill those gaps in a way to take the few things that we know about someone like Yassuke, the observations, and then to develop them into a story. So like returning it to kind of a storytelling, storytelling manner. Yeah.
00:20:32.860Yeah, I always think, you know, a person's story is more powerful than any overwhelming statistics or anything like that. If you can just kind of write one person's story that people connect with, that helps them understand. It can help them understand the entire life and entire culture and etc. So yeah, I mean, I hope that comes through.
00:20:55.020So you mentioned earlier that you were, you know, during the pandemic, etc.
00:20:59.080But then also you're writing this book about Japan from the point of view of a man from Africa.
00:21:04.320And this is, you say this also in your afterward that you weren't able to travel to Japan yourself to see these places.
00:21:10.120Can you talk about how you were able to immerse yourself in the culture and to learn more about it?
00:21:14.380yeah so uh you know initially of course i just started with you know books and uh internet
00:21:20.360sourcing and then kind of expanded out to there to podcast and youtube series there were some
00:21:24.880really good youtube series covering this period of history and so then eventually once i got to
00:21:29.860the point where i was going to write about this by that point the pandemic had started and travel
00:21:34.180was restricted so i hired a guide uh in japan to visit some sites for me and so some sites we were
00:21:41.000able to do live walkthroughs it was kind of like early morning his time and late night my time but
00:21:45.800other other places that that didn't work out and so he would do recorded walkthroughs uh and send
00:21:51.000those to me and provide some context um and then so during the editing process then i was able to
00:21:56.320go to japan uh so earlier this year when so the book we didn't close the book until i think april
00:22:01.840so i was able to travel uh earlier this year and visit uh the ruins at azuchi castle uh and then
00:22:08.280reconstruction in Honoji and a few other sites, and certainly was relieved to find that it was
00:22:13.440the way that I had pictured it. But yeah, definitely being in lockdown presented some
00:22:19.120challenges during the time that I was working on the early drafts.
00:22:24.060I was also wondering what your personal background is with things like
00:22:27.960martial arts and things like that. Is that something you're involved with in your personal
00:22:31.420life? Not a lot, but I actually did a number of years ago, I did kendo lessons for, I didn't stick
00:22:37.720with it too long i did maybe like six months of kendo lessons but so in the in the um in the book
00:22:42.880when you read about yasuke struggling with the kneeling and how his knees and ankle take that
00:22:47.880unfortunately is based off of a real life experience because uh i loved the training and
00:22:53.620i hated the the kneeling it was uh i'm not a very flexible person so that was very painful for me
00:22:59.700even though just like a couple minutes at the beginning and a couple minutes at the end that
00:23:03.060was by far the worst part of the training for me but that was obviously that was before i heard
00:23:07.000anything about Yasuke. So I did, that was just kind of something I did as a matter of interest,
00:23:11.020but yeah, it proved to be helpful knowing a little bit about sword fighting.
00:23:16.440No, I was just wondering because those parts of the book, I felt like they were written. I'm like,
00:23:20.180oh, this is a person who knows, knows this world. So convincing job.
00:23:25.220Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I have some experience, but I certainly don't think I
00:23:30.420would have lasted long in that, uh, that period. Can you talk about what the role of a samurai
00:23:36.280was like it's a word that is pretty widely known but i don't know if anybody i until i read this
00:23:41.760book i didn't specifically know what a samurai meant can you explain what that role is in in
00:23:46.800japan culture at that time yep so there's a couple things um so the the other term that's used quite
00:23:54.560a bit is the ashigaru so those are the foot soldiers those are like conscripted soldiers
00:23:58.540they're they do other things with their lives and whatever and are called into service when
00:24:03.080they were acquired. Samurai are professional soldiers who were paid to train. And so fighting
00:24:09.320was their job. But it's also like a social class as well. I would say the kind of ranking just
00:24:16.120below the nobility. And so they had different privileges that commoners didn't have. And so
00:24:22.420it's interesting that during Nobunaga's period, there was mobility between classes. And that's
00:24:28.680why you see like Yasuke elevated to the role of samurai and there were a few others uh as well
00:24:33.800and so but Nobunaga's successor uh Toyotomi Hideyoshi he enforced kind of a strict class policy
00:24:40.740and so that mobility went away and and from that point forward it became an inherited position
00:24:46.860but during Nobunaga's reign there was mobility between classes and so there were people were
00:24:53.180basically elevated based off of merit and one of the other things that i learned or that became
00:24:59.960apparent to me while i was researching this is that the idea of a impartially written history
00:25:04.700is a pretty recent concept so you'll see history you'll see stories about nobunaga that present
00:25:10.000him as an actual demon um and then you'll see other stories that talk about him like as a
00:25:15.860progressive nation builder and i'm sure the truth is somewhere in between but um on this note in
00:25:22.420particular, he does seem to be quite progressive in terms of promoting people based off of merit
00:25:26.500rather than their social class or their family and et cetera. Well, and that just, what a time
00:25:32.300for Yesike to have arrived there, like for him to have been given as a gift, you know, as an
00:25:36.880enslaved person, but then he wound up in a place where it was this time when there was social
00:25:42.000mobility was possible. He didn't just go there and then get forced into a similar role. He was
00:25:46.820able to to make a name for himself just how fortunate exactly there are you know probably
00:25:53.300a thousand points along the way where if one thing goes different nobody ever knows who he is
00:25:56.860that's also part of what makes it an incredible story but also makes you think of how many of
00:26:01.360those people were lost that you know if you think about slavery and you think about you know how
00:26:06.760many millions of people never had an opportunity to do anything you know maybe you know they could
00:26:12.500have been doctors it could have been scientists humanitarians etc you know but never had an
00:26:17.260opportunity and so yasuke to me is an example of someone who through these kind of slivers of fate
00:26:23.100did have an opportunity and as a result we still know who he is today it's a very narrow uh kind
00:26:29.300of it's a narrow line between being remembered and forgotten oh exactly and just speaking of
00:26:34.440we know who he is today so you mentioned there was the youtube you saw before there was also
00:26:38.180wasn't there an animated series about Yasuke? There's a, there's an animated Netflix series
00:26:43.840called, called Yasuke. And, uh, but it, it is, um, kind of science fiction based. Yeah. It's
00:26:50.600not, it's not meant to be historically accurate, although it does, you know, bring in some of the
00:26:54.860characters and, uh, and some of the historical elements, uh, but it's written as kind of like
00:26:59.360a science fiction fantasy. Uh, but, but it's a good series. Uh, and, uh, yeah, so that, that was
00:27:05.700anything that kind of helps introduce this character to an audience is appealing. Yeah.
00:27:11.480No, exactly. And I think people who watch that could be like, like you were, it's like,
00:27:14.900was this a real person? And then they can do the deep dive to see like, who is this really?
00:27:18.460But speaking of Netflix and series, your book has been optioned, right? It's being turned into a
00:27:24.660series? Yes. And the screenwriter is the screenwriter of the animated series. So he's
00:27:32.060actually um and he's been wanting to do it like a more accurate retelling of it uh so it worked
00:27:37.460it really well he's actually um he's a former marine who was stationed in japan uh for a while
00:27:43.020and so that's how he came across the story so he was already kind of familiar with the story we've
00:27:46.560had a couple of conversations and he's he's got some really great ideas so there was some some
00:27:52.000development work that occurred on it and then with the writers guild strike that's currently in place
00:27:56.680of course, everything's stalled. So we'll kind of see how that strike goes. But yeah, it's exciting
00:28:03.080to know that that's on the horizon. And again, bringing this character to a larger audience.
00:28:10.320Well, and that's what I was really happy when I saw it. I don't know if this is in the published
00:28:14.240version, but in the advanced reader copy I got, there's a foreword that explains that this series
00:28:18.560has been optioned and all that sort of stuff. And whenever I come across a story like this,
00:28:23.960of a person from history who's not widely known especially like a black person or a person from
00:28:28.120a marginalized background I always think I'm like why isn't this a movie this should be a movie
00:28:32.280and then this one I'm like oh it is it's gonna be a tv series good yeah yeah I don't think that'll
00:28:38.000be mentioned in the published version but uh yeah I and it certainly it stood out as like a very
00:28:45.900cinematic story right from the beginning you know as soon as I as soon as I heard about it
00:28:50.480probably the same as your reaction where you feel like this definitely belongs on a screen.
00:28:56.340So yeah, I'm glad that it's kind of found its way into the right hands for that.
00:29:00.780Well, no, it just, again, just really threading the needle, like there wasn't
00:29:04.280really a major English language novel about this. And then you're the person who wrote it. And then
00:29:08.660this screenwriter who's been wanting to turn this, you know, finds it about your book. So it's just,
00:29:13.040you know, a series of really happy, happy, lucky things.
00:29:16.080For sure. Yeah. I think they just ended up with it through word of mouth because obviously, you know, the book's not published yet. So I was quite surprised when they reached out. But I asked them how they got a hold of it. And I think somebody just like read a notice about the publication and contacted somebody said, hey, you might be interested. And it was just kind of like word of mouth that it kind of floated around and ended up in the right people's hands.
00:29:40.360Yeah. And I think, again, it just speaks to the fact that this this man's story is like you said, whenever you mention it to people, even people who maybe don't read historical fiction or whatever, it's like everyone's interested. Like this story is just inherently interesting.
00:29:52.800Yeah. And so it's also been, you know, it's been picked up by some international publishers and it's been picked up in some areas where there's not a significant black population or Japanese population.
00:30:03.300So that's what, you know, I felt like this story had a universal appeal.
00:30:07.780And so, you know, that's that kind of confirms that to me to know that, you know, publishing professionals are looking at us and saying it's not it's not a niche story by any means.
00:30:17.460This is something that people of of all backgrounds and et cetera are going to be interested in.
00:30:25.940Which is so interesting because it's the story of a man from Africa going to Japan.
00:30:30.940there's not you know the typical like white savior character at all like it's really just
00:30:35.900people of color for the most part yeah and i actually so that was one thing i was conscious
00:30:40.580of when i was writing in is i also didn't want to turn him into a black savior you know i didn't
00:30:45.120want to write a story of like yasuke saves japan yeah so i was very conscious of trying not to
00:30:50.520over inflate uh his importance uh through any of the events but again by by just kind of staying
00:30:55.920focused on his story i was still able to tell an interesting story without you know having him
00:30:59.720save the world. Yeah, no. And again, it was just so interesting to read the book where it's just
00:31:04.460like an African man in Japan. There's so many fictional novels about, I don't know, Henry VIII
00:31:12.020or Napoleon or George Washington. So it's just really great to read this story that's like got
00:31:16.720nothing to do with England or, you know, like kings or anything. It's just like Japan, Africa,
00:31:24.840like that's where the story is set. It was really refreshing to me. Yeah. And I think a lot of people
00:31:29.280when they read it are going to have. So when I started researching it, I thought, I know
00:31:35.800Japanese history not too badly. And then as I started looking into it, I realized like, oh no,
00:31:40.660this is, there's so much more here that I didn't know. And I think that's, you know, from early
00:31:45.580readers that there's kind of been that response as well, that they didn't realize how much of
00:31:51.020Japanese history they didn't know kind of thing. So I'm excited about that element of it as well.
00:31:55.300so I guess my final question for you would just be like the book again like we're recording this
00:32:00.360earlier it's going to come out this episode the same week that your book is published so what do
00:32:03.940you hope what do you hope people get out of your book when they get when they're able to read it
00:32:07.600well I hope they really connect with the character because that's you know what I
00:32:11.160was most focused on is just trying to portray this individual in a realistic way but also
00:32:18.040kind of a very human way of you know someone who's you know one of the things that really
00:32:23.700attracted me about this character is his adaptability because so many times throughout
00:32:28.020his life his circumstances change drastically and and often quite suddenly and like and still every
00:32:33.180time it would be easy for him to just think of himself as a vic uh or kind of give in but instead
00:32:38.300he kind of bounces back and finds a way to make himself more valuable than than what you know
00:32:44.600the original person kind of thought he would be so he kind of proves his value at every step along
00:32:49.280the way shows an incredible amount of adaptability and resiliency. So yeah, I hope that people
00:32:54.300just connect with the character. And I also, even though, you know, there's some dark moments in the
00:33:01.240book, there's, you know, some violence, which I really wanted to portray just to, because it was
00:33:07.260a violent time. So I didn't want to shy away from any of those elements. But ultimately, you know,
00:33:12.160I hope that people find this story to be a positive and a hopeful one.
00:33:15.980no and absolutely that's that's what i found about it as well i mean thank you for joining
00:33:21.180me to talk about your book it was the sort of book that i read it and i just thought i'm so
00:33:24.120glad i get to talk to the author because i want to let you know how much i enjoyed it but i also
00:33:27.220every question i just asked i was just like i really wanted to know more about how this came
00:33:30.420to be how you connected to the story so thank you so much for joining me today and best of luck with
00:33:35.300your book launch oh yes thank you so much uh i i i love the the podcast i'm looking forward to
00:33:40.960hearing it released and it's been it's been a pleasure talking with you and i just wanted to
00:33:45.160ask if people want to keep up with you i assume there's going to be events and things when your
00:33:48.460book comes out do you have a website or social media where people can follow you so my website
00:33:52.940is craigshreve.com uh so c-r-a-i-g-s-h-r-e-v-e.com and probably instagram would be best for social
00:34:03.760media which is cg underscore shreve and so yeah there'll be the launch and then um i have a number
00:34:09.700of uh kind of festival appearances that are booked and and i'm sure there'll be more coming so