Vulgar History - Author Interview： Genevieve Gornichec (The Weaver and the Witch Queen)

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00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to Bulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast.

00:00:35.800 My name is Anne Foster and today I am delighted to share with you this interview with author Genevieve Gornacek.

00:00:42.800 So Genevieve's second book is just coming out. It's just come out this week. It's come out.

00:00:47.380 It's called The Weaver and the Witch Queen.

00:00:49.400 And so this is set in 10th century Norway, a time and a place I did not know anything about until I read this book.

00:00:56.860 but I will say the book does not assume you know anything about 10th century Norway and it really

00:01:00.960 holds your hand throughout it. And it is a historical fantasy book, which we talk about

00:01:07.360 in this interview, kind of what, where that comes from and how and why. And yeah, I hope you enjoy

00:01:13.260 this interview with Genevieve Gornacek. So I'm joined today by Genevieve Gornacek, author of the

00:01:25.140 new historical fantasy novel, The Weaver and the Witch Queen. And we're going to talk about what's

00:01:31.120 his wife. I don't know. I think what's fantasy about it is pretty apparent. There's like magic.

00:01:36.300 People are transforming themselves, but it's really, really, really based in history and

00:01:40.520 welcome Genevieve. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.

00:01:44.040 So what I was thinking of for this, for our conversation is like, we're going to get to

00:01:48.300 the characters and the motivations and the magic and all of that. But first, can you just set the

00:01:52.080 scene because before I read your book, I didn't know anything about early medieval Norway. So

00:01:58.700 can you just like, like there's fantasy stuff that happens, but it's based on stuff that actually

00:02:03.940 did occur. So can you just set the scene? Like what on earth is happening? Like for people like

00:02:08.860 me who don't know anything, like what's going on there in this era? Okay. So the story takes place

00:02:16.100 in early 10th century Norway. At the end of the 9th century, so the late 800s, Norway was made up

00:02:23.900 of petty kingdoms. There was this one king who became later known as Harald Finehair who unified

00:02:30.380 Norway into one country, mimicking what Denmark had done earlier. Denmark became a country first

00:02:36.140 and then Norway became a country in the late 9th century. By the early 10th century, this King

00:02:42.920 Harald Finehair had made his sons because he went around marrying the daughters of important men,

00:02:48.460 like marrying the daughters of these petty kings, right? Basically to consolidate power

00:02:52.340 for himself. He had many wives and he had many, many sons with these many wives. By the time the

00:02:59.180 sons were kind of old enough, they were kind of jostling for power. King Harald made them

00:03:04.200 their own petty kings of like the different regions of Norway. And so around the time the

00:03:09.560 Weaver and the Witch Queen takes place, King Harald has a specific son in mind, Eric Bloodaxe,

00:03:15.040 who he wants to rule all of Norway after him. And Eric's brothers are not happy about this.

00:03:20.840 So the point that the story, my novel begins, really tensions are heating up in terms of like,

00:03:27.600 who is going to succeed King Harald. And can I ask what sorts of sources there are for this

00:03:33.780 information because there's like oh well you tell me it's like these narrative things right

00:03:39.800 these um sagas i'm so glad you asked yeah so uh the main sources that i used were the

00:03:46.720 medieval icelandic family sagas which were written in um from about the 13th century on

00:03:51.900 but they're talking about events that happened uh during like what we would know as the viking age

00:03:56.120 or like the settlement age in iceland a lot of the icelandic sagas um begin in norway um with

00:04:01.540 Norwegians fleeing to Iceland for whatever reason, usually because they didn't want to live under

00:04:05.220 King Harald's rule. So the sources in themselves are problematic because they were written down

00:04:11.140 hundreds of years later. So we don't know how much of what is happening in the sources like

00:04:15.900 are actually like the biases of the writers who have since converted to Christianity, like since

00:04:20.000 the events they're describing have happened. And unfortunately, the same is true for the Norse

00:04:24.820 myths. But that's a whole other can of worms. And there are several other sources that I used

00:04:29.860 to or that I was familiar with but didn't necessarily use um for the story so like

00:04:34.420 there's uh the Norwegian synoptics which were written in Norway not Iceland um as well as

00:04:39.460 Snorri Sturtlesson's Hameskringla which is like the sagas of the Norwegian kings um but it's not

00:04:44.440 like an Icelandic saga it was just written by an Icelander so Hameskringla and the Icelandic

00:04:49.260 sagas were were mostly my main uh sources is that this is how we know about Harold and the wives and

00:04:54.660 the sons and stuff are they sort of like a mixture I'm imagining of here's the actual stuff that

00:04:59.560 happened but making it into an exciting story but it's sort of like mixture of both yeah kind of

00:05:05.320 so Snorri himself the the 13th century Icelander who wrote Hames Kringla like he was a storyteller

00:05:11.380 like he he the problem is that we don't know how much of it he actually made up and that's true

00:05:16.780 for um he wrote half of what we know about Norse pathology too um in the prosetta so yeah uh we

00:05:24.200 don't know how much he embellished how much of any of it is actually true so it's more like quasi

00:05:28.660 historical than actual like what is history anyway right well honestly it's like any source like i

00:05:35.520 was looking a couple weeks ago at some ancient roman stuff and it's like well this guy wrote it

00:05:39.640 but in that time they weren't just honestly what history is like just true and facts but in that

00:05:44.360 time it was very much just like the roman history was being written like using existing tropes and

00:05:49.060 narrative devices to make it be an exciting story that was accessible to people so i'm assuming it's

00:05:53.640 similar thing yeah yes and there were even we have some of like the later icelandic sagas that

00:05:58.640 you can very much tell that the saga writer has read all of the other ones or heard all of the

00:06:02.680 other ones and is using the same sort of like devices and even like there's this one of the

00:06:07.160 really famous sagas uh the saga of gretir the strong um you can literally tell like he's like

00:06:12.240 trying to cram as many saga cameos like in there from people from other sagas just like and then

00:06:16.820 he met this famous guy everybody knows this famous guy right so yeah it's good stuff i love it i'm

00:06:22.160 such a nerd for this subject. I promise we are going to talk about your book, but like, how did

00:06:27.360 you, I'm just fascinated by like all of this. And like, how did you get into this? Like, where did

00:06:31.500 you first hear about the sagas and this history and your interests? Like you're obviously an

00:06:36.240 American person, right? Yes. Yes. So my grandfather was from Sweden. When I was an undergraduate,

00:06:42.300 I started learning the Swedish language. I went to study abroad in Sweden on scholarship. And

00:06:46.800 when I was there, I was like, oh, there's like this history around. I don't really know what it,

00:06:50.780 look, there's a runestone. Oh, there's a museum. I had no awareness at all of the significance of

00:06:58.720 the Viking Age when I was living in Sweden for four months, which is one of my biggest regrets

00:07:04.140 is that I did not know what I was looking at half the time. Because literally, when I got back to

00:07:08.140 the States, I took a course on the Old Norse language. And in this course, we translated

00:07:13.540 a couple of the edict poems from Norse mythology, a couple snippets of the sagas. And just,

00:07:19.920 it it became like a puzzle like this entire like subject and i just the rest was history sorry for

00:07:27.020 the terrible pun but like that class changed my life um i took a course on norse mythology after

00:07:31.700 that and then a course on the icelandic sagas and that kind of just like cemented my interest

00:07:35.980 in this time period i actually got into graduate school for viking medieval norse studies at the

00:07:41.220 university of iceland i wasn't able to go so instead i joined a viking age living history

00:07:45.740 group in my area and now I get to sometimes be a 10th century Scandinavian weaver on the weekends

00:07:51.180 if I feel like it so. So this makes total sense because this is your your second book the first

00:07:56.640 one also taking place in this era and I say era but in the sense of like olden times Norse region

00:08:05.820 not a specific century yeah. Right yeah the mythical past if you will and I actually wrote

00:08:12.920 the witch's heart my first novel that came out in uh february of 2021 which is actually the same

00:08:18.980 day that allison's uh novel came out uh a tip for the hangman we were debut day buddies i i wrote

00:08:24.920 that when i was taking the course on norse mythology too yeah i wrote that a long time ago

00:08:29.420 and so now we i am as i promised we're going to come to your new book the weaver and the witch

00:08:33.800 queen so but actually in a minute so there's a character in your book gunhild and that's based

00:08:41.160 on a real queen can you tell me what you knew what what do we know about that actual figure like

00:08:45.940 from the sagas and or from actual history so she is known from like multiple sources both the

00:08:52.500 islandic and the norwegian sources and even i think some danish sources that i didn't really

00:08:56.520 look at because i already had decided which ones i was going to use because when your sources

00:08:59.920 conflict with each other you kind of have to pick and choose at a certain point but one thing they

00:09:03.900 all kind of agree on is that she was like a woman who was very powerful and um they accused her of

00:09:09.340 being a witch and like using her magic to get her way she was the wife of eric blood axe the

00:09:15.580 second king norway and she did some like very questionable things in the sagas at least she 0.95

00:09:20.920 kind of has uh a reputation as someone that you don't mess with um and someone who is not above

00:09:27.000 being kind of like sneaky underhanded cunning and i just really liked her and i wanted to write about

00:09:32.260 her no and that's like again like for me and i'm gonna imagine for some of the listeners like

00:09:38.000 coming to your story into this history without any knowledge of it I'm just like oh yeah a

00:09:41.500 powerful woman people said she was a witch it's like oh that's like everybody that's like Cleopatra

00:09:46.660 like harem sultan that's like everybody so I'm like yeah I'm also on board I'm like oh a powerful

00:09:51.360 woman whoever in claim was a witch I'm like that must be the most interesting person great I yeah

00:09:55.940 of course you wrote a book 100 yep so was that what was was it her is the first character that

00:10:02.380 made you think you wanted to write this book or like what was your way into figuring out what

00:10:05.700 this book was going to be about so the Icelandic sagas the medieval family sagas are very like

00:10:13.020 they can be summed up according to my professor in two words farmers fight they cover everything

00:10:18.360 from like land disputes like oh like your sheep are grazing in my pasture to like guys fighting

00:10:23.420 and killing each other at like the district assemblies or like doing murders in the middle

00:10:27.500 of the night you put on your murder cloak and you ride over to the next farm you kill this guy

00:10:31.160 and they're overwhelmingly concerned with what the men are doing and women um there are some fierce

00:10:37.360 amazing women in these stories and a lot of the times they get kind of like sidelined sometimes

00:10:43.660 they don't but a lot of the times they they are just kind of there um we don't really hear how

00:10:48.300 they feel about anything we don't hear about their opinions on anything there are certain like saga

00:10:52.740 archetypes of women and one of them is like the sorceress uses magic to get what she wants so 0.96

00:10:59.020 So I just, Gunnhild is such an interesting character because she is active. She participates

00:11:06.600 in the story. She does things. And for this genre of literature, that is pretty extraordinary

00:11:12.000 in itself. And I was just like, you know what? None of the women in the sagas really. The only

00:11:18.520 times you see them talking to each other, it's like, I think I can think of maybe two instances

00:11:23.560 off the top of my head in both times they're about men. So I was like, okay, we have this

00:11:27.600 extremely powerful woman. What does she need? She needs two best friends. I'm gonna give her 1.00

00:11:31.620 two best friends. And we're gonna make this a girl's time. This is what the what the women

00:11:35.580 were doing in the background this whole time. Which I love like when I first saw what your 1.00

00:11:41.320 book was about. And I'm just like, yes, thank you. Because there's not in my experience of

00:11:47.600 reading historical fiction, a lot of books about like, here's some gal pals. Like here's some women 1.00

00:11:51.900 who are friends who are supporting each other, like often just like, here's a woman and she's

00:11:54.940 surrounded by men or like, here's the love story of the woman and the man, or maybe sometimes the

00:11:59.080 love story of the two women, but like, it's never just like, here's some friends who support each

00:12:02.740 other. And I was like, that's great. I love, I love that. Just like as a concept. Thank you.

00:12:07.780 Thank you. So, and then also in your book, you talk, well, here first talk about who the two

00:12:11.680 friends are, because first off, I have to say, I know there is some crossover in my listening

00:12:15.680 audience with a Sweet Valley High podcast. And when I was reading this book, I was like, oh,

00:12:19.740 these two, oh, this is a real Jessica Elizabeth situation. The two friends, because one of them

00:12:23.680 was really like bold and brave. And one of them was like, Oh, I just want to stay home and like

00:12:26.860 be shy and quiet. So that's kind of the vibe. So can you explain the two friends? Yes. So basically

00:12:32.420 like my goal for this book was, and I could also like go on a whole tangent about this, but my

00:12:37.520 whole thing was like shield maidens are cool. Like the concept of Viking warrior women, whether or

00:12:43.500 not they actually existed is very cool. And a lot of women today find it very empowering. And that's

00:12:48.100 awesome. However, comma, if you look back in history, so much of women's work has been ignored 1.00

00:12:53.460 and undervalued um so i wanted to write a book about the viking age in which the women the main

00:13:00.220 characters were not warriors like they were just regular women doing what regular women do and still

00:13:05.540 having a story that was worth telling and a story that was i don't that that putting them in center

00:13:12.180 stage when they've been sidelined for so long so my the way that i conceived of like odny and

00:13:18.040 sygney who are the sisters that you mentioned um odny is like the she's kind of like the bilbo

00:13:22.700 Baggins right she wants to stay home she doesn't want to go on any adventures like please leave 1.00

00:13:26.340 her alone please leave her out of your like grand plans um she just wants to be a housewife or does 1.00

00:13:33.300 she she thinks she's supposed to just want to be a housewife let's put it that way um and then her

00:13:38.020 sister Signe has like these big dreams and like she wants to go off and see the world and have

00:13:42.580 adventures um but she doesn't really have like any examples to follow like she doesn't know how to

00:13:48.280 start so she's just kind of like okay well if I can't get out I guess I'll just like try to marry

00:13:52.120 a rich man and like be taken away from the small sad farm so yeah we do have that like these two

00:13:57.380 sisters are complete opposites actually i just want to say another thing because i was like

00:14:01.820 sorry i just have to tell you this so the book also reminded me of the britney spears movie

00:14:06.020 crossroads which i don't know if you've seen it but it starts off with a long time ago okay well

00:14:10.520 maybe it imprinted on your brain because it starts in the beginning with the three of them as young

00:14:13.740 girls and they like make a pact that they're always going to be there and support each other

00:14:16.940 and then the whole rest of the book and then the host of the book is them going on a quest together

00:14:20.640 so oh my gosh no I like literally I didn't I have no memory of that movie whatsoever except

00:14:27.620 that Britney Spears was in it so that's weird it's weird sometimes the things that you're like

00:14:31.720 you're like wow this came from somewhere and I don't I don't now I have to re-watch that no it

00:14:35.980 was funny I don't know I was reading the book I'm like wow so this well because again because I

00:14:39.680 didn't have any any sources of reference for myself for the like ancient Norway stuff I was

00:14:44.460 like okay this is like sweet fairly high meets crossroads but with vikings yeah that's where i

00:14:51.260 connected with it but um yeah because it does it starts off with the three as girls and you really

00:14:55.720 establish like the strong friendship they have two of their sisters and the other one it's like

00:14:59.180 they see her as their sister gunheld right but yeah but the stuff with audie insignia i thought

00:15:03.440 was so interesting and it's exactly what you're saying is what i also got out of it was just like

00:15:08.900 the importance of things like it's the book is the weaver and the witch queen so it's like

00:15:12.920 the importance of textiles and embroidery and stuff can you talk about that side of things

00:15:18.240 because that's so interesting yes so I would love to talk about that um because textiles are kind of

00:15:24.080 like my living history like specialty that I'm trying to like hone in on because it was such an

00:15:28.220 important part of women's lives in that time period um cloth was currency like it was a way 0.99

00:15:34.220 for them to have power and that that workshop that I set up that probably didn't exist but 1.00

00:15:39.300 mine have existed where the women are just weaving in this workshop like weaving sails for the king's 0.98

00:15:44.160 fleet um women really made the sails for the ships they made the clothes um vikings wouldn't have

00:15:50.000 gotten far without women's work and i really do believe that they didn't see it as like less 0.64

00:15:53.940 valuable like there were there were gender roles but they were they were different like and it

00:15:58.640 wasn't like oh she's just doing the weaving and the child care and the cooking it's like well we

00:16:02.560 need to eat we need somebody to raise our kids and we need sails for our ships and clothing so

00:16:06.220 textiles were very very very important and it also i'm gonna okay listeners can't can't see this but

00:16:13.660 like this is a book called the valkyries loom and on the cover of this book it's a textbook um there

00:16:19.460 is a drawing of um a poem called dar liod which is from uh njal saga which is one of the most

00:16:27.880 famous islantic sagas and it's the valkyries weaving on a loom during a battle and there's

00:16:32.520 men's heads as the loom waits and there's like they're carrying like swords and spears and like

00:16:37.480 so this whole crossover with like textile work and like destiny and weaving fate and spinning fate

00:16:42.840 um I don't know like it's just so magical to me like how how they conceived of it and that's

00:16:48.780 why I worked in into the magic system too like the threads that connect the witches to their bodies

00:16:53.060 so sorry I'll put this book down now sorry that people can't see it but I just had it right here

00:16:58.680 link to it and I'll link so people can click on that and see the cover because that was a very

00:17:02.360 cool cover yeah it is but yeah the stuff about it's just funny that like funny in an interesting

00:17:09.040 coincidental way that your book was so much talking about like how embroidery actually

00:17:12.500 was important and it wasn't like the way that it's portrayed in some other thing I don't know

00:17:18.200 like even like the the Pixar movie Brave or like in Game of Thrones which I hate how much I bring 0.87

00:17:23.300 that up but anyway where it's just like oh I don't want to do embroidery I'm not like other girls 0.73

00:17:28.080 like it's been so much shown as like embroidery is just like boring women's work where actually

00:17:32.120 it's this cool badass thing and i love that your book got it like i was in the episodes that i'm

00:17:37.760 doing right now that this is going to come out in the middle of about mary queen of scotts we

00:17:40.940 talk a lot about her embroidery and how she was embroidering trees and patterns and like the power

00:17:46.380 of it and like that's how she was able to express her emotions and i really learned a lot researching

00:17:50.260 her about the power of embroideries and then i read your book and i'm just like yeah embroidery

00:17:53.960 yeah yeah like it was it was important and like yeah I know what you mean about like that's kind 1.00

00:18:00.340 of like Cygni's character right like I don't want to do like that women's stuff like I want to go 1.00

00:18:04.540 like go go on adventures and stuff and I mean she has a terrible adventure no spoilers but like 0.99

00:18:10.320 just this whole idea that I think fiber work is magic like I really do like any sort of I'm a

00:18:16.080 knitter like I I do tablet weaving for my Viking age craft in my group um and I just think it's

00:18:22.720 really cool that like people are women are starting to like kind of reclaim this um a little

00:18:28.760 bit and i and my words have gotten twisted before i do not mean like we should return to traditional

00:18:34.700 values like women doing all the textile blah blah blah like i think it's 2023 and anybody of any

00:18:39.560 gender should be able to do whatever they want um but i'm like speaking strictly historically like

00:18:45.340 i'm tired of the contributions of women being ignored and i just want to be like here's some

00:18:51.940 cool stuff that they also did that had nothing to do with going off to battle yeah no exactly

00:18:56.120 like you're saying it's like they were the ones who made the sales and when you what i think of

00:18:59.540 like again as a person who knows very little about any of this like the viking ships it's like um

00:19:04.800 yeah the sale was kind of like 90 of what they needed so yes exactly exactly so without the

00:19:14.500 women doing that okay so we've got we've talked about the three main characters like a gun held

00:19:18.820 who's based on the real figure from the sagas we've got odny we've got sydney and also actually

00:19:23.220 let's return to what you were saying about sydney because that also really resonated with me

00:19:26.400 in the story where she like she wants again like i'm bringing in my own references but

00:19:31.760 like in disney's beauty and the beast she wants much more than this provincial life

00:19:36.040 she wants something but like you were saying it's like she doesn't she she doesn't have a role model

00:19:41.140 to show her that that's possible and i thought that really hit me hard because i was like yeah

00:19:45.220 like what do you do in an era and a culture and like we still see this today like not just with

00:19:50.300 women but with everybody where you see like oh this is the first like trans person to win the

00:19:53.720 golden globe award or like this is the first black person to get whatever it's like if you

00:19:58.180 don't see someone like you doing something then you don't know that you can aspire to that and

00:20:03.420 that signi wants so much but there's no role model there's no person she can follow their path yeah

00:20:09.580 I thought that was interesting.

00:20:11.460 Exactly.

00:20:12.300 Like, and the only role model she really had were like,

00:20:15.120 you know, we have these legendary figures

00:20:16.740 from the earlier, earlier sagas

00:20:18.440 that are supposed to take place

00:20:19.620 in like kind of a fantastical past.

00:20:21.660 So Signy would have heard those stories, 0.99

00:20:23.980 but it's like these women 0.91

00:20:26.000 who were like the shield maiden or maiden kings,

00:20:29.140 and that's also a whole nother like subject. 1.00

00:20:31.240 They were like these highborn women 1.00

00:20:32.600 who had the resources, right? 1.00

00:20:34.340 Who went to their rich mothers

00:20:35.680 and were like, outfit me like you would a son.

00:20:37.680 and i'm going to go raiding with the men you know signi didn't have any of that so she's kind of

00:20:43.640 just adrift and odny is kind of judging her for being like well make up your minds like what do

00:20:48.660 you want to do with your life take steps to to do what you want to do and their mother like doesn't

00:20:54.300 disparage signi from going off on the raids because she's a woman she does it because like

00:20:58.400 she says like you're you can't stick to anything like you can't pick a hobby right like if you 0.91

00:21:05.020 would commit to fighting you could totally go on the raids but you don't so yeah poor signi

00:21:10.180 i love her so much oh i do too like spoiler she was my favorite character in this book yeah but

00:21:16.520 um i am also a jessica wakefield stan yeah so you've got these three like girls who become

00:21:22.540 women and they're friends and they're all connected to each other can you talk about

00:21:25.500 the magic element of it like the book very early on is like oh magic is real this isn't an allegory

00:21:32.360 like this is people are transforming into animals like that's just happening so how did you was that

00:21:38.100 based on some of the stuff in the sagas like how did you develop this magic system

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00:23:36.460 yes so it was inspired by by the sagas because the sagas some of them are more realistic than

00:23:44.240 others they do a really good job of making us think that they're like real history but then

00:23:48.280 you've got like ghost seals and like ghosts showing up to haunt a farmstead and then the

00:23:51.940 icelanders sue them so they'll go away there's a lot of lawsuits the icelandic sagas too like

00:23:56.360 it's just it's a whole thing they sued the ghosts that is i believe arabica saga which like that is

00:24:01.880 like one of the less realistic sagas there's just all kinds of like ghosts and crazy stuff happening

00:24:06.800 yeah so like the magic was i really think that like the magic was part of their landscape right

00:24:12.920 it existed they didn't even be like oh like that's that's a weird thing that happened like

00:24:17.900 it just happened because magic was part of their world part of their understanding of the world

00:24:22.280 and how the world worked so it was a very it wasn't a very short leap to be like yes this is

00:24:27.620 like actual magic that i am portraying in this book you know only some of the people can like

00:24:32.800 see the threads that connect like the witches uh shapes to their bodies like other magic 0.98

00:24:38.300 practitioners so like to ordinary people it would just look like these women are just standing 0.86

00:24:42.300 around like singing and like pretending to mime spinning or whatever but they their understanding

00:24:46.660 is that there was something magical happening here gunhild when she sends her her mind out

00:24:52.880 uh it takes the form of a swallow and that is actually also from the sagas from ael saga which

00:24:58.480 is the saga where she is like the lifelong antagonist of the title character who himself

00:25:03.720 antagonizes everybody else but yeah she appears as a swallow in that one uh we think conjecture

00:25:09.940 but i say it's true so exactly so when you were developing the magic for this it wasn't like

00:25:14.940 somebody who's inventing their own whole world with a magic system you're just kind of being

00:25:18.680 like kind of what was going on and let's just like bump that up to be actual magic yes exactly

00:25:24.780 yep and then something else I want to talk to you about and you mentioned like without getting into

00:25:29.640 spoilers but you mentioned this and I think the afterword of the book but there is a queer element

00:25:34.020 to the story as well in terms of I don't know I don't want to reveal who the character is

00:25:38.940 necessarily but can you talk about your inclusion of that character and how that is portrayed

00:25:44.560 and your choice to put that in the book so that was something very important to me because uh well

00:25:50.780 one the representation factor i believe representation is very very important and

00:25:55.980 there really is like like a groundwork in the sagas for you know like uh there being uh queer

00:26:03.920 and transgender characters right so we have at least two of the like maiden kings sagas that i

00:26:10.360 mentioned earlier where like when this maiden princess whatever goes to ask to be outfitted 0.95

00:26:16.420 like a man and go raiding like she actually takes he him pronouns and a man's name and goes out

00:26:24.200 raiding in both instances uh with these with these characters they do return and take back their

00:26:30.760 female name and pronouns but like that's really interesting right like you don't see that in a lot

00:26:36.340 of like fiction from this time period or writings from this time period i should say there's also

00:26:42.240 you might have heard about the birka warrior um this grave that was long thought to be a man's

00:26:48.960 grave because of all the rich grave goods at in at birka in sweden some years ago uh tests were

00:26:56.020 performed on the bones and the bones were revealed to be a belonging to someone who uh was assigned

00:27:02.040 female at birth or you know osteologically female biologically female and so everybody's like oh

00:27:07.200 this is proof that women were warriors and you have some scholars saying well we don't know that

00:27:13.520 for sure we don't know how this person identified right but whenever you try to say that like oh

00:27:18.940 like this could have been someone that we understand as transgender today there's a lot of pushback

00:27:23.800 there's a lot of people saying like oh you can't let women have anything well like you gotta like

00:27:29.100 think of like we can't just put people in these boxes like we do today right like history especially

00:27:34.640 a time period that we have so few like written sources by the people in that time period writing

00:27:39.360 about themselves like it's just so hard to say like definitively like yes this was a woman warrior

00:27:44.280 right because there's so many other like factors that could have fed into that and so like that

00:27:48.860 was one of my frustrations um especially like being someone doing living history where like

00:27:53.140 you know i've had patrons at festivals come up be like where are all the warrior women it's like

00:27:57.080 we're not all lagertha from vikings dude like yeah so that was really important to me to be like hey

00:28:03.120 like guess what like queer people lgbtqia plus people like we've always been here and just

00:28:09.640 because like we've been omitted from history doesn't mean that we were we're not there at all

00:28:13.600 does that make sense i'm sorry that was a really long soapbox and yeah i was trying to like word

00:28:18.220 that very carefully no that was good i love i love how much soapbox talking we're having in this

00:28:23.160 episode. But yeah, I thought that was, that's such an interesting thing. Cause I have heard

00:28:27.660 about that, the like Viking bones. And then it's like, Oh my God, it was a woman. And then that

00:28:31.320 was like, like we were talking about, like, if you don't see someone doing what you want,

00:28:34.560 like you want to find that role model. And so to some women, they're like, Oh my God, 0.98

00:28:37.560 warriors. That's so cool. But I love what you're saying where it's like, but also to like

00:28:41.360 transgender or non-binary people being like, Oh, like a person who had this physiology and lived

00:28:47.580 in this other way. That's a role model. Exactly. And I think that that is why like figures like

00:28:53.540 Loki are so important to people today. We don't have really any evidence that Loki was actually

00:28:59.580 like worshipped back in the Viking age, but Loki sure as heck is worshipped today. And by, by many,

00:29:05.040 many like queer people who are heathens, like Loki is their patron and Loki is very important to them. 0.98

00:29:10.520 And so I think that that is amazing. Like it's, it's just so interesting. Like what we pull from 1.00

00:29:16.320 history and be like, this, this is significant to me. So I'm going to run with it. Like this is

00:29:21.560 going to be my thing. No. And I think that's beautiful. I had an episode that just came out

00:29:25.300 a bit ago at the time that you're hearing this, but where I was interviewing, um, Angela Siney,

00:29:29.840 who wrote a nonfiction book called the patriarchs, the history, it's basically the history of

00:29:33.520 patriarchal culture. And she's kind of myth busting that sort of way, like that I kind of assumed

00:29:39.120 that the world worked where it's like, everything was super patriarchal and only now, you know,

00:29:43.760 starting in the 20th century, women are starting to get rights where it's like, no, cultures were

00:29:47.340 different and weird and interesting and inconsistent. And the way the gender was seen

00:29:51.560 was all different in all different places. And your book really shows that in a really interesting

00:29:55.740 way. And everything you're saying right now about these sagas where it's like, yeah, this person,

00:29:59.360 she went off and fought, then became he, and then was a warrior and everyone accepted. Like,

00:30:04.600 I don't know. There is this kind of like, because you said the sagas were written

00:30:08.020 hundreds of years later by people once it was like a Christian region. So there's that lens on it.

00:30:13.080 but if we look at it to mention like well what what does this show what was the story before

00:30:16.800 that lens was there like it's showing a society where gender was made perhaps sounds like more

00:30:23.060 fluid and for us to take our own thoughts now being like you have to be either cis or trans

00:30:28.560 or you have to be like a woman or a man and for them they're just kind of like okay this is a

00:30:32.880 fighter cool like your name is like eric great join the army like and your book your book i want

00:30:38.340 to let the listeners know also like that's the vibe in the book it's not like when the like

00:30:43.980 transgender type character identity comes up everyone's like oh okay it's not like what like

00:30:52.060 everyone's just like oh yeah got it yeah that happens sometimes okay like no one so it's not

00:30:56.840 and I like the portrayal of a society where everyone's like oh okay got it yeah because

00:31:00.960 there was societies like that like why do we have to imagine it was this fraught thing you know 0.53

00:31:06.120 right and at least at least in the viking age like it was very hyper masculine very like

00:31:11.960 very patriarchal from what we can gather from our sources and there is some danger for this

00:31:17.120 character too it's not like everybody just accepts him right like there are there are people who

00:31:21.820 challenge him and that also that actually was like at the suggestion of one of my sensitivity

00:31:27.260 readers because i had two two sensitivity readers with this character like completely opposite

00:31:31.500 feedback so i tried to like work in both things because you know like marginalized people aren't

00:31:35.380 monolith. So that's why I had two readers instead of one, just to try to cover all my bases as much

00:31:40.980 as I could. Oh, but yes, it's not like everyone in the book is like, Oh, great. Okay, that's who

00:31:45.740 you are. But but some characters are and this person's life is not defined by this. Right,

00:31:51.820 exactly. I don't know. Sometimes when I read historical fiction, I go to the back and I read

00:31:55.940 the author's like notes first. So I can just be kind of like, what's going to happen in this book?

00:32:01.000 so like i knew that that was coming but i forgot which character it was so i was reading the book

00:32:05.600 and i'm just like there's gonna be this queer character and i'm like but who is it and i didn't

00:32:09.400 until like i'm like oh that character okay but yeah i i thought like whatever is like as a reader

00:32:15.360 who doesn't know about this saga like it all just kind of built this culture to me that i ended it

00:32:21.100 understanding your understanding of what this world is like so well done thank you thank you

00:32:28.280 so much that was kind of like my goal right just to be like hey like you've seen history channels

00:32:32.520 vikings but have you like seen a version of the viking world that was maybe closer to what it

00:32:37.660 might have actually been like because i'm relying on the source material that again in itself is

00:32:41.840 problematic but like and also there's magic yeah like all this stuff is happening another thing

00:32:47.460 that i like really wanted to play around with in the book not play around with but like address is

00:32:51.980 the way in which like these patriarchal norms that keep the men in power also hurt the men

00:32:56.480 like eric blood axe himself like is a really good example of this like that's something that he

00:33:01.120 really struggles with am i supposed to be like the man that i'm but my father made me or am i

00:33:05.380 allowed to have feelings like so yeah just what it what it means to be a man in a hyper-masculine

00:33:13.140 society and like like you have status but do you i don't know do you have freedom is the status and 0.52

00:33:21.340 the rules like the honor code more constraining because the women could get around that women 1.00

00:33:25.480 aren't part of the legal system they don't have to like uphold the honor code they they do it on

00:33:29.840 behalf of like their male relatives but like the men are just as constrained you know in their own

00:33:34.520 way even though they are by all accounts like the ones who are controlling everything if that makes

00:33:38.960 any sense at all no it does it does and that's definitely for the for the listeners when you

00:33:43.240 read this book like i think you'll see that as well that all of the characters like it is

00:33:46.580 since i did this i read this book and i had the interview with angela siney i'm just like there's

00:33:51.520 different kinds of patriarchal societies and this is one in which women did have the right to

00:33:55.240 divorce like they had it's not yes like when I historically have thought of like oh a patriarchal

00:34:01.000 society I picture it all being a monolith where it's just like I don't know like the worst one 0.79

00:34:05.460 of the worst ones is like ancient like Athens I think where it's like women couldn't do anything 0.98

00:34:09.920 they couldn't leave the house they had no whatever but it's like no this is yeah like you said it's 0.75

00:34:13.480 a patriarchal culture comma and women were really important and their contributions were valued and 0.99

00:34:19.760 yeah so just kind of that nuance is interesting right they had like a certain measure of power 0.95

00:34:25.500 within their society even though they didn't have legal representation they couldn't sue somebody

00:34:29.800 they would have to get like their closest male kinsman to sue them they had their own ways of

00:34:33.480 getting what they wanted one of them was magic or the accusation of magic and that's kind of where

00:34:37.560 Gunnhild gets her reputation from we're like you know because when after I mean I guess this isn't

00:34:42.740 a spoiler but like Eric eventually dies like and that is how Gunnhild becomes mother of kings 0.96

00:34:47.500 because she basically tries to get her sons back on the norwegian throne not herself she never tries

00:34:53.120 to seize power for herself it's always like on behalf of her husband or her sons so that's really

00:34:58.400 interesting to me like she's not trying to break the whole system she's at a she's of such a high 1.00

00:35:03.960 status that like she can have the same amount of influence but just work through her men yeah 1.00

00:35:08.820 like no exactly and i've talked about people like that on the podcast before where it's just like

00:35:13.740 yeah they're not here to break this but eventually like someone like i'm just throwing names at you

00:35:17.880 but whatever um but like agrippina in in ancient roman times it's like yeah she was never the

00:35:23.340 empress but she was the power behind like three different emperors yes yeah she didn't have to be

00:35:30.340 emperor in name to be like the most powerful human being in town yes yes which is also interesting 0.79

00:35:37.040 like when we're looking at these sort of like if you look at a list of like well here's who all the

00:35:40.440 Roman emperors were and their names. Or if you look at like, here's the kings of Norway, it's

00:35:43.860 like, yeah, but like, who influenced them? Like, and that's arguably as important. And that name's

00:35:49.540 not on those scrolls. Yes. I hope everyone is coming to this conversation is like excited about

00:35:54.600 this as you are about your book. I love how excited. I love how excited you are into this

00:36:00.240 whole era and this whole thing. Like, and I love that you're bringing that passion into these like

00:36:04.060 really interesting novels. Like, did you ever think that your route was going to be like writing

00:36:08.800 a nonfiction book like here's the by you know like why why did you go to fiction rather than

00:36:14.840 nonfiction with all of your knowledge and your schooling i've just i've just always been a

00:36:21.600 fiction writer like ever since i mean i cut my teeth on fanfiction.net just like most writers

00:36:26.520 of of my age in the early aughts uh so i always knew that fiction was the way that i wanted to go

00:36:33.400 but I still also had to do a ton of research and try to fit my story within the parameters of this

00:36:39.580 universe and having to decide which parameters I was going to stretch or ignore because I don't

00:36:44.820 I don't think I could do a nonfiction book but I have plenty on my shelf that I refer to

00:36:50.620 when writing my own so yeah no it's interesting there's just I've talked to so many authors this

00:36:56.820 year on the podcast and it's interesting I'm just always curious like which people go to fiction

00:37:01.520 which people go to nonfiction and I think there's something about nonfiction or about fiction is

00:37:06.440 just like as a storytelling device like when you're writing a nonfiction you have to like

00:37:10.020 cite every fact and you don't have that freedom to imagine like well how did they get from point

00:37:14.860 a to point b so and which like nonfiction writers are able to sort of be like maybe this or maybe

00:37:20.880 this but in fiction you have kind of the freedom to take to tell the story kind of like it was in

00:37:25.140 the sagas to be like well these things happened but what about if I involve this what if she had

00:37:29.920 two best friends what if this was happening so it's like a way of marrying like especially books

00:37:35.120 like yours which is interesting because there's also like literal magic but it really marries

00:37:39.220 the history with the fiction in a way that feels like I felt like I'm like okay yeah I get it I'm

00:37:44.580 like there I'm in this world in a way that a non-fiction book probably wouldn't have gotten

00:37:50.240 me to feel like so in a time and place and that's part of because you're looking at the women and

00:37:54.520 their work and filling out the world instead of just being like the farmers suing each other or

00:37:58.620 whatever yes yeah and I'm I'm definitely like a character writer too like I connect with the

00:38:05.700 characters and like they're the vehicle that I use to to move through the story and that's why

00:38:09.600 I am what the kids call a pantser I do not know really what is going to happen or where the

00:38:13.640 characters are going to take the story when I sit down and write it like even writing something

00:38:17.760 historical right like I had uh like a whole outline that I just kind of like went okay I

00:38:23.160 guess they're just doing whatever they want it's fine it's fine no it's fine but also i love them

00:38:29.200 and the magic of that right of like a story just taking on a life of its own and where it goes and

00:38:33.760 then you know things like britney spears crossroads it's like in the back of your brain somewhere

00:38:38.220 and then you're like what if i have what if i have a pre a prologue where they're young girls

00:38:42.860 making a pact like yeah i really gotta watch that movie now no i don't remember super a lot about

00:38:50.820 the movie but i do remember that the opening was the girls making the pact and i'm like okay

00:38:54.560 that's what she's doing she's from crossroads anyway sorry i don't mean to keep talking about

00:38:58.540 crossroads so your book is coming out when this podcast comes out this episode is going to air

00:39:04.260 like the week that your book is published so how i'm sure you have events and things so how can

00:39:08.460 people keep track of where you are and how they can come see you and hear you talking i am most

00:39:13.900 active on Instagram at Jen Gornachek. That's Jen with a G. And I just made a thread through

00:39:20.720 Instagram. So, you know, that's the thing. We'll see how that goes. I also have Twitter and

00:39:25.180 Facebook, same handle, but I don't really update them. Instagram's my happy place. So that's where

00:39:33.060 I spend the most time. And I have like my event schedule like pinned in my bio. So because I'm

00:39:38.280 doing quite a lot this summer yeah are you gonna be doing like in person online like a mixture of

00:39:45.700 both kinds of things or what's what's on your schedule um mostly in person which is uh amazing

00:39:52.220 considering for debut uh understandably there was nothing going on in person so yeah I'm gonna be

00:39:58.160 hitting a couple bookstores back in Iowa one in Wisconsin before that I'm going to San Diego

00:40:03.060 Comic-Con which like I still like can't believe I feel like I'm just gonna be sitting in my panel

00:40:08.260 and I'm just gonna be like this isn't real this is this isn't happening uh and then after that

00:40:14.300 I'm going to Norway like are you doing an event in Norway like about your book oh no just uh um

00:40:21.400 and researching I went last summer too uh when I was like wrapping up labor like the the finishing

00:40:28.020 up I was like okay there's this metal festival happening they're having academic lectures like

00:40:32.760 I'm in so I'm just curious what's the topic for your comic-con panel it is a writing craft panel

00:40:41.960 I think it's called the best advice I or the best writing advice I ever got um that's super cool

00:40:48.780 no and that's also so exciting well I mean it's exciting in general that you're doing all these

00:40:53.060 events but also after your first book came out in this very weird time where there were opportunities

00:40:58.540 to doing the online events. I was, I was delighted in that era as a person who lives far away from

00:41:04.500 where all the in-person events are, like how much stuff I could attend. That was really fun. So I

00:41:07.980 think for people like me, that was good. But I think for you to get a new experience of like

00:41:11.500 in-person events will be really. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I like, I would love to do both too,

00:41:17.100 because I'm, I'm a homebody. Like I don't like going out and doing things for the most part.

00:41:21.100 I just want to sit here and like knit with my cats. Like that's, that's my happy place. So like.

00:41:26.120 See, you're you're like an odd knee type person. Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, and that is like, like you said, like a virtual like makes things more accessible, not just for people who live out far away from everything, but also people who are like physically unable to leave their homes. So I think virtual hopefully will be here to stay. And I hope to do more virtual stuff just to have that accessibility and reach out to, you know, more people. Yeah. I feel yeah.

00:41:52.080 Yeah. Well, I mean, it's funny because we're talking now, but this is coming out when the

00:41:56.360 book comes out. So like, best of luck with your book launch and your events and everything.

00:42:01.220 I'm sure. Is it exciting to know that people are going to like read your book soon and get to see

00:42:05.960 what people think about it and what they take from it after it's been living in your head for so long?

00:42:10.140 It is pretty terrifying, though. Yeah.

00:42:13.420 Yeah. Terrifying.

00:42:14.280 Yes, it is. It is. It is terrifying. Yeah. Because I mean, with Witch's Heart,

00:42:17.960 I had no idea what to expect and with Weaver I very much I still don't know what to expect but

00:42:23.340 I know more of what to expect so it's very much like yeah it's been in my head for so long and

00:42:29.120 I don't actually know if it's any good so like we'll see yeah yeah no I can imagine but for me

00:42:35.500 a person like at first I was just like oh my gosh like I was I felt I'm gonna not lie I was daunted

00:42:40.360 I was just like okay what is this era who are these people ancient Norway I don't know anything

00:42:45.280 but then it's like you the book doesn't rely on anyone knowing anything going into it it's just

00:42:50.220 like any other book you learn here's it's very character driven you're like here's the world

00:42:53.540 you explain things as you need to know them it was not other listeners don't be afraid

00:42:57.560 if you don't know about the sagas that's really what i tried to do like to make this stuff

00:43:03.700 accessible both in the witch's heart and the weaver and the witch queen like i really tried

00:43:07.520 to make it for like anybody to pick up and just be able to like understand what's going on i so

00:43:12.160 i'm neurodivergent and i have a really hard time with some with some epic fantasy and some like

00:43:17.100 really high concept sci-fi stuff like if i can't visualize what's going on and i don't know what's

00:43:22.020 happening like i'm not gonna finish the book so i try to write in a way that's like very

00:43:27.220 straightforward and like give you something to connect with like hopefully the characters but

00:43:31.500 like you know um but that's just that's just my style even the names like for me like i don't

00:43:37.560 read a lot of fantasy or when I when the names all look the same as each other or they're all

00:43:42.720 confusing and the names in yours or I'm like I'm like god even Odin and Signy being sisters I'm

00:43:47.040 like right I'll remember they're sisters because the names both end with why like it was all just

00:43:50.600 like yeah yes yes and there were there were so many characters like okay so pick up any given

00:43:57.620 Icelandic saga and there's going to be like dozens of characters who the first element of their name

00:44:02.140 is Thor Thor something I can name you like two dozen names that start with Thor like just off

00:44:07.000 the top of my head right so like for the characters that weren't historical I was very deliberate in

00:44:12.080 choosing the names to try to like differentiate them from one another because like I even omitted

00:44:16.320 some of the characters that were like in the saga because they either had the same names as somebody

00:44:20.020 else or like had very similar names to somebody else so like yes this is all very deliberate to

00:44:24.200 be like please don't be scared like I know the names are weird but I promise there are people

00:44:28.020 in Iceland who have those names and who don't think they're weird so please enjoy no thank you

00:44:33.860 thank you thank you for saying that because I thought was at first I'm just like oh my gosh

00:44:37.360 everyone's gonna have these long names I'm gonna confuse them with each other I did not at all so

00:44:40.680 they all like they all start I don't know things like this and I just noticed because I don't know

00:44:44.900 I like I'm glad and there is an appendix yes as well if people get lost or something there's

00:44:49.760 exactly who is this thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me on this podcast about

00:44:55.660 this book I think it really vibes with what we've been talking about this season in so many ways

00:44:59.760 It's just like the embroidery stuff and just like the women, you know, like in history

00:45:04.260 being important, even if they weren't warriors.

00:45:06.660 Like, it's just like, that's so much of what I've been talking about.

00:45:09.240 And so like this book, I think slides in perfectly into this season.

00:45:12.320 That's awesome.

00:45:12.920 Thank you so much for having me on.

00:45:14.200 This has been great.

00:45:15.440 Yeah.

00:45:15.720 Thank you so much.

00:45:16.500 And good luck with the book launch and everything that entails.

00:45:20.200 Thank you.

00:45:21.280 Thank you so much.

00:45:21.940 so again the book is called the weaver and the witch queen by genevieve gornichek and you can

00:45:33.560 as she said you can keep up with her she has a website genevieve gornichek.com if you don't know

00:45:38.020 how to spell that just look in the show notes of this podcast because there'll be a little link

00:45:41.920 there she's also on various social media as she mentioned so you can keep up with her and see

00:45:46.980 where she'll be as her book is released and where she's going on tour and that sort of thing and so

00:45:51.760 if you want to keep up with me, I am also on social media. So I'm on Instagram and threads

00:45:58.840 at vulgarhistorypot. I'm also on TikTok at vulgarhistory. And I have a website,

00:46:04.340 which is vulgarhistory.com, where you can get the transcripts of recent episodes,

00:46:08.140 which are provided by Aveline Malek of The Wordery. Thank you so much, Aveline, for

00:46:12.340 transcribing these. So people who like to read podcasts can do that as well.

00:46:16.840 I also have a Patreon, which is patreon.com slash Anne Foster Writer, where you can,

00:46:20.600 if you give a small monthly donation or a large monthly donation, but whatever monthly donation,

00:46:25.960 you get early ad free access to all episodes of this podcast. And then I also have merch store,

00:46:30.800 vulgarhistory.com slash store, as well as at vulgarhistory.redbubble.com. And I think that's

00:46:38.280 it. Thank you so much for listening. I really recommend you read Genevieve's book. It was

00:46:43.220 a real good time. I hope you had a good time listening to me talking with her as well.

00:46:46.940 And we'll be back next week with another new episode. 1.00

00:46:50.260 So until then, keep your pants on and your tits out. 1.00

00:46:56.100 Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Anne Foster and edited by Christina Lumagi. 0.99

00:47:16.940 monthly fees, and 100 free trades,

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00:48:22.880 Two, one, you win!

00:48:26.700 The war is over and both sides lost.

00:48:31.180 Kingdoms were reduced to cinders

00:48:33.040 and armies scattered like bones in the dust.

00:48:36.640 Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world,

00:48:40.680 praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight but in the shadow dark the darkness always wins

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00:48:54.740 flame dies something else rises to finish the job this is a brutal rules light nightmare with a story

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00:49:05.980 like to play rpgs in the 80s and man it is so good to be back join the glass canon podcast as

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Vulgar History - July 28, 2023

Author Interview： Genevieve Gornichec (The Weaver and the Witch Queen)

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Transcript