Vulgar History - July 26, 2023


Mary Queen of Scots： Bonus： Clare Hunter (Embroidering Her Truth： Mary, Queen of Scots and the Language of Power)

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Mary, Queen of Scots： Part Nine： In My End Is My Beginning Author Interview： Genevieve Gornichec (The Weaver and the Witch Queen)

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Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
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00:00:30.000 hello and welcome to vulgar history of feminist women's history comedy podcast my name is ann
00:00:47.320 foster and this episode is part of our ongoing mary queen of scots series last week we we reached
00:00:54.440 the end of Mary's life, but her story lives on, obviously. And this is an interview I recorded
00:01:00.060 before I recorded any of the Mary episodes, because it's an interview with Claire Hunter,
00:01:04.760 and she is the author of a book called Embroidering Her Truth, Mary Queen of Scots and the Language
00:01:10.560 of Power. And if that title sounds familiar to you, it's because I've shouted it out in every
00:01:15.500 single one of these episodes, because it was one of my main sources for researching this entire
00:01:20.240 sees in this book is I read it when I was just starting to do my research, which is why the
00:01:24.560 interview was a while ago. And it really helped shape this whole season of the podcast because
00:01:30.480 of what Claire Hunter has done in this book is to what no one else, no other biographer of Mary
00:01:35.860 Cream Scots has done before, which is to look at her life through the textile she purchased,
00:01:40.180 displayed, gifted, and created. So what Claire says is in an age when textiles proclaimed power,
00:01:46.660 Mary exploited them to advance her personal and political agenda, affirm her royal lineage,
00:01:51.040 and tell her own story. Claire also wrote here, I felt that Mary was there pulling at my sleeve,
00:01:56.520 willing me to appreciate the artistry, wanting me to understand the dazzle of the material world
00:02:00.920 that shaped her. And so this is a biography of Mary Queen of Scots, and it literally goes from
00:02:05.720 her whole life, just looking at through this lens of fabric and the sewing that she did,
00:02:10.520 that other people did. As we talked about in like every episode, because this biography was
00:02:15.800 so influential on my research is that Mary during periods of time where she couldn't safely write
00:02:22.060 a journal, she couldn't keep a diary, but she was able to sew and to stitch. And we really can see
00:02:27.220 both in what she chose to create. And also in just the, the way that her stitches were,
00:02:32.920 were they even or were they uneven? Just what was her state of mind? Like Mary Curtis Scott's
00:02:37.180 embroideries, I think, you know, from the previous episodes of this series are my, they're so
00:02:42.200 important to me. I find them so fascinating. And it's really even more so than seeing letters or
00:02:47.180 something, just evidence that this was a real person who lived. Anyway, I'm so excited to
00:02:53.320 share this interview with you finally with Claire Hunter. Again, her book, Embroidering Her Truth,
00:02:57.640 Mary Queen of Scots and the Language of Power. It's available in the UK and it's going to be
00:03:02.560 available in North America later this month. And it's such a good book. And I really enjoyed
00:03:08.760 talking with Clare about Marie Curie of Scots and the textiles of it all. So enjoy.
00:03:19.800 Okay, so I'm joined today from an idyllic part of Scotland. It's Clare Hunter. Welcome, Clare.
00:03:27.260 Thank you, Anne. Thank you for inviting me.
00:03:29.820 Yeah, I'm really excited. When I first read about your book, I thought, oh, I'm excited to read this
00:03:34.600 book and then when I read it I thought oh I really hope I can I can get a chance to talk to Claire
00:03:39.680 and have her on the podcast because I think it'll be so interesting to the listeners
00:03:43.440 and if you're a Mary Queen of Scots fan I'm a big Mary Queen of Scots fan yeah actually here I'm
00:03:50.620 going to show you something this is a little Mary Queen of Scots doll yeah it's I keep her here
00:03:58.800 well i've been researching her she's sort of my my mascot can you tell me about your connection
00:04:05.720 as a scottish person or just as yourself um to marry queen of scots do you remember when you
00:04:10.540 first felt an interest in her or a connection to her well of course being scottish then
00:04:16.420 she was a scottish queen but i think really when i was when i was very small and we used to play
00:04:22.060 us little girls used to play in the playground and we used to pick dandelions and the game then
00:04:27.940 was that one of you would try and blow off
00:04:30.820 all the petals of the dandelion. 0.89
00:04:32.760 And as you did that, the rest of the little girl gang 0.88
00:04:35.500 would chant, Mary Queen of Scots got her head chopped off. 1.00
00:04:38.800 Mary Queen of Scots got her head chopped off.
00:04:40.320 So we knew the name very early on.
00:04:43.160 And of course, in the times I was growing up,
00:04:45.580 then I used to be in toy shops,
00:04:47.720 the most wonderful historical dolls,
00:04:50.600 which I could never afford,
00:04:51.760 and my parents could never afford to buy me.
00:04:53.520 But Mary Queen of Scots was amongst those, 0.95
00:04:55.440 dressed in her black velvet with a white veil
00:04:57.920 And so I used to yearn longingly through the shop window at the doll of Mary Queen of Scots.
00:05:03.700 And when I was writing the book, then through eBay, I got my Mary Queen of Scots doll.
00:05:08.560 Oh, good.
00:05:09.280 I knew I had her as my mascot on my desk as I wrote.
00:05:13.580 And also I think, you know, we were brought up really being taught the history of men in Scotland.
00:05:19.420 And apart from Flora MacDonald and Mary Queen of Scots, we didn't hear about other women in past times.
00:05:26.120 and so she's always been a feature of our kind of knowledge of Scottish history as a woman.
00:05:35.000 So I've always had a, yes, I've always had an interest and over time, you know, you would have
00:05:39.520 the Four Marys song, you know, last Nick I saw about Four Marys, although actually it's not
00:05:44.400 written about Mary Queen of Scots and her four female companions, the Four Marys. We always
00:05:49.400 believed in Scotland, it was, and that was always sung, you know, at Cayley's and things like that.
00:05:54.220 so she's always been there in the background so to speak i wanted to bring her more into my
00:06:00.880 foreground through the prism of textiles obviously there are hundreds of books written about mary
00:06:06.860 queen scott's but they're mostly dealing with her personal and political life through a historical
00:06:12.300 idea and i wanted to use her textiles as the focus to see what that might reveal of her that maybe
00:06:18.960 hadn't been revealed before i really appreciated your book because i've been researching her
00:06:23.720 recently, and I get something different from every book, but yours was presenting. Well, I'm
00:06:29.080 hoping you can explain how you did some of the research, but you were looking at sort of lists
00:06:34.000 of what textiles were bought and when, and then in your book, you relate them to, and this is what
00:06:39.560 was happening in her life at that time. And that shows in a very tangible way, the way that other
00:06:45.240 books sort of imagine what she was thinking. Your book can say, well, here's what she was planning.
00:06:50.360 here's the textile she was ordering so here's what we know here's what we know she was thinking
00:06:54.980 probably it's a whole different way of seeing it and before i actually wrote the book that was my
00:07:00.140 hope you know when i was researching it then i had discovered all the fantastic treasures accounts
00:07:06.880 during her reign now this is like her kind of amazon purchase list yeah so it lists in detail
00:07:13.680 all the thread all the all the fabrics the clothes the fees to tailors it says how much
00:07:21.400 she was buying it says where that was coming from was it you know a Paris black was it a you know
00:07:27.680 a Venetian satin often it says the colour and also it says how much it cost so that was very
00:07:35.120 interesting so I had all those and the other thing that was there were all her infantries so
00:07:39.920 both the inventories of her father, James V of Scotland, and her mother, Mia de Guise,
00:07:44.740 which, of course, Mary inherited when she came back to Scotland. The inventory of what
00:07:49.160 Mary herself bought in France when she went to marry the Dauphin. And when, before she
00:07:55.500 came back to Scotland, she obviously went on a massive spending spree and bought, you
00:08:00.120 know, some fantastic gowns and some extraordinary bed hangings. Interestingly, only one set
00:08:06.240 of church dressings, furnishings,
00:08:09.260 presumably because she was very aware
00:08:11.260 that Scotland was, you know,
00:08:13.220 the Reformation had happened
00:08:14.380 and that Scotland was looking
00:08:15.520 on decoration with askance.
00:08:17.860 So she was very circumspect
00:08:20.280 in what she brought back
00:08:21.560 in ecclesiastical terms.
00:08:23.760 And then there were the inventories
00:08:25.680 of what was in the royal wardrobe store
00:08:28.460 when she was queen.
00:08:30.400 Many of the, not many,
00:08:32.280 but quite a lot of the items
00:08:33.560 then annotated by her
00:08:35.340 Vallée de Chambre, Servais de Pont, and he would say what Mary did with those textiles, either with
00:08:41.120 her own clothes, or with the clothes of Mary de Guise, her mother, or indeed what she did with the
00:08:46.920 textiles that they had in store, because in those days, fabric itself was kind of hoarded as treasure.
00:08:56.380 You know, Henry VIII, the King of England, you know, basically when he died, then there were over,
00:09:01.340 you know 55,000 yards of textiles in his royal wardrobe you know so we're talking
00:09:05.980 large amounts that were kept now she would she would basically distribute these either to 0.99
00:09:11.480 ladies of the Scottish court whose friendship she was wanting to win she gave them to her own
00:09:17.160 four Marys the friends that I've talked about who had been with her since her child and she gave
00:09:22.300 them to them because that because she had actually worn them then they had more potency as in a sense
00:09:28.120 a gift of self. She gave them to some nobleman when she was trying to again win their favour
00:09:33.760 and indeed she took out of the royal wardrobe some of the clothes of her mother and had them
00:09:40.040 adapted for her own use including about five cloaks which of course were symbolic of protection.
00:09:46.100 So all those inventories and latterly then we have the last inventory of what she left behind
00:09:52.580 when she fled to England, what she left behind in Scotland. So those inventories reveal a lot
00:09:58.140 and some of them are those annotations that her valedictus sombre made were dated. So what I then
00:10:04.000 was looking at was correlating what was happening in Mary's life with what she was either purchasing
00:10:09.580 or what she was using, what she was taking out of the store and for what purpose and what did
00:10:14.860 that tell us about either her political intent or indeed her emotions at the time. And can you talk
00:10:21.200 a bit about the fact that she wore black so much of the time when she was in Scotland. I thought
00:10:26.860 that was very interesting. Yes, well, black in the mid-16th century, we're talking about black 0.88
00:10:31.520 was the colour of statesmanship. So Mary wore black in order to emphasise her role as a political
00:10:39.920 queen, as well as a personal queen to Scotland. It was also the colour of constancy. So again,
00:10:47.660 it had an emotional symbolism behind it, which meant that she would be loyal. And I think it's
00:10:54.060 very interesting to look at how, you know, we've got very few portraits of Mary, but the portraits
00:10:58.620 we have wearing her black, as you say, compared to the portraits that Elizabeth I of England at
00:11:04.020 the same time was making of herself, Elizabeth is festooned in, you know, ribbons and lace and
00:11:11.320 pearls and huge ruffs and huge sleeves and farthingales etc and she was trying to show
00:11:18.680 herself as an expansive queen whereas Mary is trying to portray herself as a trustworthy queen
00:11:25.740 who has got political acumen and is going to lead the country in an effective way
00:11:32.420 and that's why black was an important colour to her. Behind the scenes of course at court revelries
00:11:39.460 or masks etc then there is another wardrobe an alternative wardrobe which is in her inventories
00:11:46.960 which isn't black so there must have been times when she changed out of her when she could take
00:11:52.240 on a more social role amongst her own intimate court when she then donned gowns of all sorts 0.91
00:12:00.780 of colours and you know striped with silver braided with gold a whole other wardrobe of finery
00:12:07.580 But we have no portraits to allow us to know what that looked like.
00:12:12.260 I found it really interesting, too, just the way that you were researching and writing this book.
00:12:16.420 You really get a sense of that she was a very aesthetic person.
00:12:21.240 She really loved fine things.
00:12:23.120 She loved beautiful things.
00:12:24.660 And you talk about how many dresses she had was, I don't want to say disproportionate,
00:12:31.200 but she couldn't possibly have had a chance to wear all of them when she had such a large wardrobe.
00:12:36.960 Yes, but compared to the wardrobe of Elizabeth I,
00:12:39.320 I mean, when Elizabeth I died,
00:12:40.980 she had 2,000 gowns in her inventory.
00:12:43.680 Mary, when she, the final inventory,
00:12:46.220 was basically under 20 gowns that she possessed at that time.
00:12:50.380 Of course, she'd been in captivity
00:12:51.600 for all those years before that.
00:12:54.620 And often, I don't know, because we have no record of it,
00:12:57.920 but a number of Elizabeth's gowns would be given to her as gifts,
00:13:02.380 from busters, from courtiers, from other European rulers,
00:13:05.820 looking to court her favor and it might it may well be that mary herself we have no listing of
00:13:12.080 the gifts given to mary but some of the gowns she possessed were indeed gifts as as barter
00:13:18.560 actually but just speaking of that there was one point at which mary herself sent a gift to
00:13:23.900 elizabeth um that included her own stitching right she did and again that you know this is
00:13:29.360 a time when elite women are taking up embroidery and really to be it's not a form of writing 0.99
00:13:38.020 really a form of different a different kind of agency before that embroidery had mainly been
00:13:43.000 in the hands of convents and monasteries and and also the equipment and materials for embroidery
00:13:50.460 was rougher and readier but in the 16th century we see a major change we see the reformation coming
00:13:56.100 So we see embroidery moving into secular hands more.
00:14:01.080 And we also see, through Spain, finer needles being imported to the rest of Europe.
00:14:07.240 And so suddenly finer embroidery can be done.
00:14:10.120 And I like to think of the ladies of the court sitting, looking very docile,
00:14:14.260 with their heads bowed over their embroidery,
00:14:16.520 but actually listening to every single word that is being said around them
00:14:20.680 and having their own private conversations about what that means politically.
00:14:25.520 So when Mary was in captivity then, as you see,
00:14:28.640 and she then made Elizabeth a number of gifts.
00:14:33.100 She made her little embroidered nightcaps.
00:14:35.400 But the most extraordinary gifts she sent her to,
00:14:38.400 it was a time when Mary had a small window of opportunity.
00:14:42.200 She'd lost Elizabeth's favour because the plots made against Elizabeth,
00:14:46.440 which Mary was implicated, although not guilty at that point.
00:14:50.520 And basically she then decided that she had a small window of opportunity
00:14:54.560 These great letters to the French ambassador asking to be brought back the finest silk fabric, the finest that can be got, to get silver thread, because she has some work to do, but it must be done in haste.
00:15:12.900 And then we get another letter saying, oh, the silver thread you sent is far too thick. Could you send me a thinner version of it, finer version of it?
00:15:21.080 And what she actually made for Elizabeth was a skirt front, which was of entwined thistles and roses.
00:15:28.400 It also had honeysuckles and pinks, which are also symbolic.
00:15:32.980 But as you know, the rose, the Tudor rose, was a symbol of English sovereignty and the thistle, the symbol for Scotland.
00:15:41.300 Red is the colour of blood bonds.
00:15:43.600 and the fact that Mary embroidered it with her own hand,
00:15:48.440 Elizabeth being a needlewoman herself,
00:15:50.300 because we've got evidence of her embroidering it as a girl,
00:15:54.480 we'd have understood exactly how much time
00:15:57.340 Mary had spent in its making.
00:16:00.120 And it was reported back to Mary
00:16:02.080 that the English found it very nice,
00:16:06.740 which maybe wasn't as high enough praise for me at the time,
00:16:10.980 But he also reported that he thought that the English Queen had much softened towards Mary.
00:16:18.420 So the gift had served its political duty.
00:16:21.740 It had done what she hoped it might do, but it didn't win her liberty.
00:16:26.580 And just going back to what you said a moment ago about how stitching became sort of a way for these royal women to express themselves in a way, you know, we don't have their journals,
00:16:37.940 But we can see based on what they chose to stitch or, you know, how even the stitches are, maybe what was going through their mind.
00:16:44.920 Can you talk a bit about, you mentioned this in your book, Catherine de Medici and the stitching that we know that she did and Mary would have seen her doing that.
00:16:53.440 Yes, it's interesting that Catherine de Medici, because we imagine her as this kind of formidable woman who engaged in black magic, etc.
00:17:00.780 But there is a wonderful, again, report of Catherine de Medici every afternoon, sitting with what was called lacus work, which is a kind of open white network in which you can embroider images.
00:17:14.960 And if you imagine that she learned it in the convents in Italy, where she was put there for safety when her life was threatened as the downfall of the Medici was underway.
00:17:26.480 and then at 14 she was sent to France to marry Henri
00:17:31.880 but of course he had this mistress there
00:17:34.240 the intelligent, cultured Diane de Poitiers 1.00
00:17:38.060 who was running the show
00:17:39.340 and so it must have been really demoralising for Catherine 1.00
00:17:42.680 to find a way to manage this menage a trois 0.99
00:17:45.460 between three of them
00:17:47.760 and I imagine her every afternoon just thinking
00:17:51.180 this is my time, I'm just going to sit quietly
00:17:54.100 and embroider forget what has happened in my past forget what is the kind of challenges I have
00:18:00.780 around me at the moment and I'm just going to have an hour or two which is my time and when she died
00:18:07.560 they discovered over a thousand pieces of that lack of work so it just shows you how important
00:18:14.300 it was to her as a kind of therapeutic in my view aid to keeping calm in what were very difficult
00:18:23.420 circumstances she was 10 years with her children you know until she actually became pregnant which
00:18:29.620 for a queen was very dangerous um and because they could be um done away with basically if they
00:18:36.360 didn't produce the the wanted heir to the throne so she had a very very difficult time and we know
00:18:42.340 that mary queen of scots had various health issues obviously there was a lot of uh mental anguish
00:18:50.180 stress from what was going on around her so I thought it was really interesting to bring it 0.93
00:18:54.200 back to to the embroidery that she did and you mentioned that she would be stitching while she
00:18:58.420 was taking meetings with her advisors she was just kind of constantly embroidering yes I don't know
00:19:05.340 much about her embroidery in Scotland and we don't have any evidence of that embroidery but once she
00:19:11.820 moved into captivity in england then it became both a salve and a crusade in a sense because she
00:19:20.340 had her letter censored and some confiscated but her embroidery was unedited she could through her
00:19:27.500 embroidery put down what she wanted and nobody could interfere the other thing about sewing is
00:19:33.220 you know as many people listening will know is that sewing is sociable and mary had lived a very
00:19:39.600 lonely time of it at the Scottish
00:19:41.560 Court. She had no family of her
00:19:43.680 own, apart from half-brothers
00:19:45.740 and sisters who she hadn't been brought up
00:19:47.740 with. She had no, really
00:19:49.800 no close friends apart from 0.96
00:19:51.700 her four Marys who ultimately, apart
00:19:53.740 from one, did marry and moved into
00:19:55.420 their own families. She had nobody
00:19:57.780 she could trust. She had no great
00:19:59.480 advisor, as again Elizabeth did
00:20:01.640 to William Cecil, and so she was very
00:20:03.720 very isolated. So she moved to
00:20:05.720 captivity and one would have thought that
00:20:07.760 was isolating, but actually 1.00
00:20:09.040 in her household she had Bess of Hardwick who was a very redoubtable spirited energetic creative 0.99
00:20:16.480 keen embroiderer keen needle woman she had her own household with her values of Chambra 0.84
00:20:22.400 what were called her chamber children and her ladies-in-waiting etc and you can imagine that
00:20:28.500 scene of a wet afternoon of them all sitting around with their sewing helping one another
00:20:34.940 saying could you finish that off for me you know have you got any more of that brown thread
00:20:38.780 having a laugh as he devised
00:20:40.920 the embroidery that she and Bess did
00:20:42.960 together. There's a lot of mischief
00:20:44.980 in there and I
00:20:46.720 spent many years doing
00:20:48.860 community textile projects and I
00:20:50.920 know if you get a group of women together to 1.00
00:20:52.900 design something, then eventually 1.00
00:20:54.860 then it becomes a bit ribald
00:20:56.600 in its humour as stories are told
00:20:59.080 and shared. It would have been the same in Mary's Day. 0.69
00:21:01.220 It would have been exactly the same.
00:21:02.780 There would have been a lot of laughter. So finally
00:21:04.760 in that, although a captive
00:21:06.820 she had camaraderie
00:21:08.780 And that must have been a great solace to her, never mind the rhythmic solace that embroidery itself brings.
00:21:14.740 Can you describe the large project that it seems she and Bess of Hardwick were working on together?
00:21:22.280 Yes, they worked in a set of bed hangings together.
00:21:26.120 And again, this was very novel at the time, what they decided to do,
00:21:29.520 because they decided to make it through using little parts of embroidery, little patches of embroidery.
00:21:36.140 Well, they're not that small, actually, but they're about 12 inches by 14 inches,
00:21:41.120 different shapes, cruciforms, rectangles, et cetera.
00:21:45.180 Some are larger than others.
00:21:46.460 But basically to do these smaller pieces of embroidery,
00:21:50.200 which then would be appliqued to a large piece of cloth and act as probably bed hangings.
00:21:56.800 And luckily for us, because Bess was such a great curator of textiles,
00:22:03.660 and when she died insisted in her will
00:22:06.340 that the textiles remain within the family
00:22:08.500 we still have a number of both her and Mary's embroideries
00:22:12.020 and they can be seen at Oxford Hall in Norfolk
00:22:14.300 and there's some in the V&A Museum in London
00:22:17.160 and there's two of Mary's and one of Bess's
00:22:20.280 in the Palace of Holyrood House in Edinburgh
00:22:22.060 so it's fantastic to have those actual embroideries
00:22:25.620 that they did together
00:22:27.000 and their idea was that when they were assembled 1.00
00:22:31.120 Now, we don't know what the scheme was, but the two women would have a scheme so that as you read through and along and up and down, the embroideries would have been placed in a relationship to each other to basically amplify the meaning one to the other. 0.99
00:22:49.040 So sometimes that would have been done, as I say, with mischief in mind. 0.97
00:22:52.620 So you saw one image and then looked at the other.
00:22:54.720 And if you could get the connection, then you would understand that there was something clever that they had done with putting those two images together.
00:23:05.380 Sadly, we don't know what that arrangement was.
00:23:08.000 And they used a lot of books coming out at the time of kind of like encyclopedias of flora and fauna, etc.
00:23:15.960 and they used a lot of those as source material but often they particularly Mary would adapt them
00:23:22.140 or add another motto to something to give them another meaning. Can you talk about her
00:23:29.720 her stitchery or her piece that's the cat the ginger cat with the mouse and now we're just
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00:26:26.100 The ginger cat.
00:26:26.760 Well, a ginger cat has to be my favorite piece.
00:26:28.600 So there's an embroidery which originally would have been her source material, would have been a book by Conrad Gesner of the time.
00:26:38.860 And it's his black and white wood cut that she has copied for that embroidery.
00:26:44.280 But of course, she has cut because she's embroidering it.
00:26:47.100 She has coloured it in thread and she chose to make it a tabby cat, i.e. a red brown cat, basically to personify it as Queen Elizabeth the First.
00:26:56.860 and she's changed the kind of expression of the cat
00:27:02.460 a little bit from Conrad's, Conrad Gessner's original
00:27:06.020 and so this cat's rather smug
00:27:08.020 and its whiskers a little bit more aggressive
00:27:10.040 but the most interesting thing is that she's inserted
00:27:13.120 Mary herself inserted into that picture a little mouse
00:27:16.300 and in Mary's picture of that cat
00:27:19.160 its tail is basically out towards the mouse
00:27:23.320 but the cat's paw is pressing very firmly
00:27:26.700 on the mouse's tail and really therefore it was an expression of mary's own feelings about her
00:27:33.580 her captivity and interestingly the mouse is very lumpen it's very squalid and it's it's
00:27:40.960 really as if mary drew that herself and again if that's the case then it basically captures
00:27:47.500 mary's own sense of lack of self-worth her own emotional and political immobility at that time
00:27:54.220 So there's a tragedy in that picture, although it seems to be of a jolly hat, but really it's about being trapped.
00:28:02.900 And I think that with Maize and Browse, she's added again, that wasn't in Gessler's original,
00:28:09.640 she's added in a kind of trellis carpet that's in blue and gold, quite, you know, patterned carpet.
00:28:16.200 And I think, well, why did Maize spend all those hours doing that?
00:28:19.520 and the the needle in those days was symbolic of kind of an arrow piercing its target and so I like
00:28:27.040 to think that Mary chose to embroider on and on with this particular piece to pierce through it
00:28:34.940 and somehow to try and get through to Elizabeth however vicariously and pull her close.
00:28:43.080 I love I love the way you just described that and it's it's similar in the book because
00:28:48.280 upon first seeing when I first saw a picture of that cat piece I just thought oh that's that's
00:28:55.060 funny that's that's odd looking and I thought is this true is that really something Mary Queen of
00:28:59.560 Scots did because it's it's it's so striking looking and so interesting and then of course
00:29:03.440 it is and then you visited is it at Hardwick Hall is that where you saw it? It's at the Palace of
00:29:07.880 Hollywood House. Oh Hollywood House yeah. In Edinburgh yes and I went to see it there and it
00:29:14.780 was just fantastic to see it close up they took it out of the case for me which was wonderful
00:29:19.260 the creators and what was really interesting to me you know it was the it was the nearest I'd
00:29:23.880 actually come to being in Mary's presence to you know see her I couldn't touch it but I could be
00:29:30.600 inches away from it and her embroidery was very unsettled I mean Mary actually wasn't a fantastic
00:29:36.960 embroiderer she was more interested in the content rather than the technique Beth was a very good
00:29:43.460 embroider and you can tell that from her stitching so mary's embroidery is uneven you can see how it
00:29:49.200 kind of flows along for a while and then it stumbles and there's a bit of kind of a bit of
00:29:54.420 an erratic stitching going on as to until it starts to flow again and so her tenacity
00:30:02.680 in terms of embroidering i mean in that one embroidery i counted there would be over 10 000
00:30:08.320 stitches now mary did both in large numbers of these small pieces for these hangings that she
00:30:15.600 invested together she also did some cushions and when she went for her execution and there was an
00:30:21.700 inventory made of her possessions there were over 300 pieces of embroidery that were mostly
00:30:26.660 unfinished but there's also other embroideries that we do not have but have been described
00:30:32.180 so the amount of work
00:30:34.880 the amount of sewing that she did
00:30:36.740 is extraordinary and that's why
00:30:38.420 I call it a crusade
00:30:39.720 it was through her sewing that she was basically
00:30:42.400 capturing her own testimony
00:30:44.260 for posterity and particularly
00:30:46.600 for her son James I of
00:30:48.760 England and VI of Scotland who of course
00:30:50.560 she'd had to
00:30:52.960 leave behind in Scotland when he was 10 months
00:30:54.720 old and who she never saw again
00:30:56.620 and he'd been brought up by the
00:30:58.700 reformist nobles to believe his
00:31:00.760 mother was an adulteress was a murderer and so she had to get her story her real story through
00:31:08.240 to him and she used embroidery to do that but we don't have the actual embroidery but we do have
00:31:12.600 a written description of it that's so fascinating because there's a lot there's so much has been
00:31:17.500 written including recently about her letters and the way that she wrote them in code and things
00:31:22.080 like that but just knowing that her embroidery was also a way for her to communicate yes and was
00:31:28.760 also coded through its imagery and its relationship of an image to a mortal then it is a form of
00:31:36.180 visual code as well you know i was going to say that only those who knew what she was referring to
00:31:40.860 would be able to really understand what she was saying in that piece of the embroiderers that
00:31:46.580 exist if people want to be able to see them in person so the cat that's at hollywood house and
00:31:51.960 then hardwick hall you write in your book as well there's hardwick hall has two cushions by mary one
00:31:56.720 is usually on display and it's also got a large number of embroideries by Beth of Hardwick but
00:32:02.380 Hardwick Hall itself is the most fabulous place to visit for anybody who's interested in textiles
00:32:08.900 but but just because it's a glorious place to see Beth built it as a as a kind of to basically
00:32:16.300 counter the accusation that she was an ambitious woman which was seen as something terrible in the
00:32:24.020 16th century. And so she then built this extraordinary, most beautiful place in England
00:32:28.600 at the time. And because she was such a creative person, then it's an extraordinary building
00:32:36.020 and filled with tapestries and textiles because she adored them so much. And then Oxford Hall
00:32:42.020 in Norfolk, which again is completely charming in itself, has got a large number of both Mary
00:32:47.120 and Beth's embroideries.
00:32:49.100 They've been assembled onto green velvet
00:32:52.460 at some point in past centuries.
00:32:54.380 We're not sure when.
00:32:56.020 And so you can see a large number of her,
00:32:58.260 30 of them, I think, just over 30 of them
00:33:00.260 are verified as Mary's
00:33:01.900 because they carry her monogram
00:33:04.000 or her cipher or have a thistle
00:33:06.440 or something that's a reference to Scotland.
00:33:09.220 And others were uncertain
00:33:10.840 whether it was her or Beth who made them.
00:33:13.680 But if you look very close at stitching,
00:33:16.000 then you can hazard a guess just based on the technique as you were describing yeah
00:33:23.060 it's the same technique but it's best is the finer it's needle wound actually just while we're
00:33:29.380 speaking about best of hardwick can you describe i thought this was so fascinating the project that
00:33:34.920 she had commissioned that was textile portrayals of famous women from history yes well these are
00:33:41.820 at hardwick hall and it is just amazing to see them because they are as rich obviously the
00:33:49.220 colours will have faded a bit but she used the recycled vestments that had been confiscated
00:33:55.340 during the reformate the english reformation for them they're obviously the work of professional
00:34:00.000 embroiderers but best probably and mary when she came into best's best's husband's care
00:34:06.080 we'd possibly have stitched on them as well
00:34:09.520 and they are life-size images of women through time
00:34:14.200 through mythology, through history
00:34:16.420 as a kind of celebration of women's courage
00:34:20.560 intelligence, vitality and importance
00:34:24.920 and they are absolutely extraordinary
00:34:28.460 and beautifully displayed at Hardwick Hall
00:34:31.600 so another treat for anybody who goes there
00:34:33.940 and just pivoting back from from mary and best and their stitching itself back to the
00:34:40.560 the textiles that she would have acquired something else i was just hoping you could
00:34:44.540 describe was how you write about her execution and her ensemble and what the significance of that
00:34:53.340 can you describe what you found out well of course you have that that image of mary walking
00:34:59.400 to what was her execution she wears her iconic black um robe the gown and a trailing white veil
00:35:08.420 which of course white was the color of innocence as well as the color of spirituality and then
00:35:13.660 she's taken on to what was a black velvet clad platform the um executioners are dressed in black
00:35:20.540 and around her are the great and the good of men of both the court and the locality
00:35:25.740 in black there's a fire blazing in the in the in the fireplace and then it comes to the point
00:35:33.700 when mary has to kneel down in order to have sadly her head chopped off and her lady two of her
00:35:40.180 ladies in waiting prepare her and they take off her outer gown to reveal her her undergown which
00:35:47.460 isn't a petticoat it's just an undergown which was of fiery red which was the liturgical color
00:35:54.040 and the Catholic faith of martyrdom.
00:35:56.760 And then they remove her black sleeves 0.99
00:35:58.520 to again reveal undersleeves of red.
00:36:02.980 And so there is this glow of Mary 0.99
00:36:06.300 in amongst all this black walking to her death 0.97
00:36:09.200 in a moment of sartorial triumph as a martyr, 0.93
00:36:13.580 because this is the colour of martyrdom.
00:36:16.100 And Mary to the very end was using her textiles
00:36:18.620 as statements, as declarations of who she was.
00:36:22.080 I had heard before about that she had the reveal of the red at her execution but just the way that
00:36:29.900 you described it and the meaning of it and in the context of your whole book where you're saying
00:36:33.520 she was silenced in so many ways but through her textile work like she's screaming like you can
00:36:40.260 really see yeah and and and of course it's being heard by us now which is wonderful it did reach
00:36:47.700 audience you know at the time not maybe although I like to think that wearing the red yes the
00:36:54.980 color of Marsden but also Elizabeth I's mother Anne Boleyn when she was executed she'd also
00:37:01.540 worn red and so I like to think that Mary had a double intent there that she was also echoing
00:37:10.240 Anne Boleyn's execution as a reminder to Elizabeth I 0.99
00:37:16.760 that actually women are brought down by the greed of men
00:37:21.780 when often they are innocent.
00:37:24.460 I just, I find it so, you were saying, you know,
00:37:26.520 she was giving up these messages and now today we can understand them.
00:37:30.700 And through your book, you're kind of, with your experience
00:37:32.960 and your knowledge of textiles and stitching,
00:37:34.640 you're kind of the translator.
00:37:36.260 You're saying, here's what she was doing.
00:37:37.880 and then through you can explain
00:37:39.700 and here's what that means.
00:37:40.780 And so I really appreciate that.
00:37:42.660 Yes, and it'd be interesting, Anne,
00:37:44.160 to know, you know,
00:37:44.980 if you took other people,
00:37:46.200 I mean, Katha Dementry, again,
00:37:47.520 her infiltrates are fascinating.
00:37:49.020 There are other people,
00:37:49.680 if you did that same approach, 0.99
00:37:51.740 a woman, 0.94
00:37:52.640 what would be revealed about them
00:37:54.820 that we've never been told
00:37:56.100 by what has largely been male document,
00:37:59.100 documentaries of the time,
00:38:00.680 you know, contemporary to those women
00:38:02.700 or male historians later on
00:38:04.920 who had no interest in textiles.
00:38:07.160 and the interior world that these women were surrounded by. 0.96
00:38:12.980 Because women at court lived mainly interior worlds. 0.97
00:38:16.780 I mean, they did hunt, they did go out, etc. 0.92
00:38:18.440 But the world of their power was mainly interior.
00:38:23.320 And so their interiors were the important background to their presence.
00:38:27.940 How did you first get the idea to look at these inventories?
00:38:32.900 is my first book threads of life was about the social emotional and political significance of
00:38:39.980 sewing and one of the chapters was really about power and i chose mary queen of scots as my kind
00:38:45.940 of central figure for that for that chapter and for my initial research discovered the inventories
00:38:52.280 because she was just part of one chapter there was absolutely no way i could then really go into
00:38:57.600 what those inventories could tell us and that's why i thought actually there might be another book
00:39:02.180 that is just about Mary
00:39:03.400 and then I could really use these inventories
00:39:06.040 and not just the inventories of her
00:39:07.780 but of her father, of her mother
00:39:10.200 and I looked at Catherine de Medici's inventories as well
00:39:14.220 and I looked at inventories made
00:39:15.920 when Mary was a child at the Court of France
00:39:18.560 which lists all the extraordinary child attire
00:39:22.660 she was wearing Venetian satins and short silks
00:39:26.960 and cloths of silver and gold
00:39:29.160 when she was 11 years of age
00:39:32.120 So all of them are really, really fascinating
00:39:35.560 for what they tell us of the kind of importance.
00:39:40.820 You know, Mary in France was a political prize.
00:39:43.780 So she was dressed as such when she comes back to Scotland.
00:39:47.060 And I love the fact for her first parliament,
00:39:50.660 she and her four maids spent quite a large amount of money
00:39:54.720 on dressing her four maids in their ceremonial clothes
00:39:58.440 of purple velvet.
00:39:59.460 and they were young they were all 17 18 year olds so to have them processing down the high
00:40:06.420 street in edinburgh with their long trains fanny out behind them sparkling their jewels
00:40:11.020 was an extraordinary declaration of female power at that time it's a i really everyone who's listened 0.99
00:40:19.940 to this episode i would imagine is going to run away and go read your book right away because
00:40:25.180 everything everything that you've just described is there's so much more of exactly this sort of
00:40:30.860 discussion in your book and so I really encourage everybody to look at it I believe it's been out
00:40:36.820 in Scotland in the UK for a while now it's only just coming out in North America have you had
00:40:42.240 any feedback from from readers yes very very nice feedback I mean luckily for me because you're
00:40:48.980 always when you're writing a book that's based on historical fact then you're terrified that
00:40:53.800 somebody's going to you're going to get lots of emails saying well actually no it was a tuesday
00:40:57.860 not a wednesday that you know rick and scott met darn your husband that kind of thing so luckily a
00:41:03.160 couple of small things but nothing major and um and yes for both when i go and do book events
00:41:09.620 or i get which is always lovely when you get emails from people just telling you i just had
00:41:16.340 to write because actually i really found your book fascinating i really enjoyed it and i learned so
00:41:21.740 much more about Mary and obviously what I was hoping to do with this book was to reveal Mary
00:41:28.400 in a much broader way than she's usually shown through her textiles and gives people a different
00:41:36.800 kind of insight into her both as a woman and a queen and from the feedback I guess it seems that
00:41:43.740 the book has achieved that which makes me very happy. Of the many things I appreciated about
00:41:48.460 your book was it also really presents her as a person because so many of the writings about her
00:41:55.120 are saying she comes across as sort of just a victim of circumstance and you're saying like
00:41:59.800 well here's what John Knox was doing and here's what her brother was doing and she was just kind
00:42:03.180 of flailing around but your book really puts her at the center who is she and what was she doing
00:42:08.500 and what were her actions and I really appreciated that and Mary was a very intelligent very highly
00:42:14.180 educated woman and although in many people's eyes she made some very poor decisions she took her own 0.99
00:42:21.620 political risks she did weigh up what you know people would have her marrying both Darnley her
00:42:27.340 second husband and then Boswell from passion I actually don't think Mary was a passionate person
00:42:33.520 in that sense I think she cared for her position as the the queen of Scotland as a as a basically
00:42:42.940 appointed by god she was a very devout person and she saw this as something that she had to safeguard
00:42:48.760 not for her own aggrandizement but because it was what she was put into the world to do and and her
00:42:55.220 marriages were all expedient in her eyes at that particular time at that specific time and we 0.88
00:43:01.860 haven't got people would have to read the book to go into the detail behind those but um the you
00:43:08.520 You know, there is a lot of evidence there
00:43:11.680 that Mary was choosing carefully
00:43:15.180 how she approached her life and her reign
00:43:19.720 and then it all got out of control
00:43:21.960 as she then became, it became too difficult,
00:43:26.620 too challenging for her to do.
00:43:28.180 And as I say, she had no one advising her,
00:43:30.820 nobody she would trust around her,
00:43:32.660 whereas Elizabeth I always had William Cecil at her back
00:43:35.680 as her protector.
00:43:37.100 Mary did not have a protector.
00:43:39.200 She was having to make her own way.
00:43:41.620 And I would say, and at the point that this episode is coming out,
00:43:45.160 people will have heard six hours of me talking about Mary Queen of Scots.
00:43:50.340 But I think she did the best she could, given the circumstances.
00:43:55.360 Better than a lot of other people in the same role, I would think.
00:43:58.400 Given the circumstances.
00:43:59.500 And if you think of the circumstances, you know, of being, you know,
00:44:02.760 father dead when she was just days old,
00:44:05.840 sent away from her mother at the age of five to the French court,
00:44:08.520 even her four marys taken away from her at that point
00:44:11.380 so she could absorb the culture of the French court
00:44:14.180 and the language without them around her.
00:44:16.960 Losing her first husband on François II
00:44:21.780 in terrible circumstances, you know,
00:44:24.720 with her at his bedside as he died,
00:44:28.040 the real love of her life at that point,
00:44:30.900 and her widow not wanted in France,
00:44:33.500 didn't know where else to go in Europe
00:44:35.420 and came back to Scotland that was not very,
00:44:38.520 enthusiastic about her return. And then married Darnay, her second husband, who of course then
00:44:44.820 was murdered. She was implicated in the crime and then forced to marry Boswell for different
00:44:50.680 reasons, which again I won't go into. And then basically, shortly after they married, being
00:44:57.680 defeated and imprisoned. And she was 24 and miscarried. A son had miscarried, had, you
00:45:08.260 know had her life threatened on numerous occasions and basically then at 24 is imprisoned with
00:45:15.200 nothing around her uh with two two gentle women at the very start of that and um and then eventually
00:45:23.180 she fled into captivity in england so so in that way a tragic tragic life and then the odd glimmer
00:45:33.780 we get of her um when she's you know when everything is the few moments where everything
00:45:40.640 seems to be going well then we have a charismatic queen somebody who's energetic who's as i say is
00:45:46.880 very intelligent and um and who's spirited and courageous but who's brought down by the ambitions
00:45:54.280 of those around her yeah it was just the i don't want to say perfect but just a storm of just so
00:46:02.160 many people things that had been happening long before she was alive the political climate it was
00:46:07.800 just it was just too much for her it was yeah too much for anyone yes yes absolutely well thank you
00:46:15.080 so much thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me about all of this stuff thank you for
00:46:19.180 inviting me as I say I was when I was planning this these episodes I asked my listeners what do
00:46:24.500 you what are you excited to learn about Mary Queen of Scots and somebody said I want to learn more
00:46:28.680 about her embroidery and I said oh oh there's going to be a whole episode just about that just
00:46:34.380 wait yeah but thank you so much again I'll have to listen to the others actually as well please
00:46:40.980 take care Anne
00:46:42.140 so Claire's book is called Embroidering Her Truth Mary Queen of Scots and the Language of Power
00:46:53.460 it's available now in the UK it's going to be available in North America later this month on
00:46:58.120 august 22nd apparently and i wanted to let you know also about what claire is up to and if you
00:47:03.520 want to know more about what she does so she has another book that is called threads of life and
00:47:08.680 there is a chapter in that about mary queen of scots but it's also talking about just other
00:47:13.480 women in history and their their life through sewing so threads of life it explores the power
00:47:19.120 of sewing and why so many of its stories have been forgotten it's so interesting that one's
00:47:23.720 available all over the place. It's already out. And Jo says a website that's called Sewing Matters.
00:47:29.140 And so this website is a place where you can read about, explore, and discover the social,
00:47:33.700 emotional, and political significance of needlework. So she writes that while she was
00:47:38.080 writing her books, she came across many fascinating, forgotten, little-known, and overlooked
00:47:42.280 stories of sewing. It is these that she wants to share, and she also invites us to tell our own.
00:47:47.660 So Claire has been involved for the last 30 years. She's been involved with textiles as a community
00:47:52.420 artist exhibition curator and banner maker in 1986 she set up needleworks in glasgow working
00:47:58.460 with people of all ages and cultures using sewing as a way to celebrate local history
00:48:02.440 document community experiences and share personal concerns through the creation of
00:48:06.940 wall hangings and banners i love her work i love talking with her i encourage you to read
00:48:13.400 her book um and bring her truth and also threads of life links to both of those will be in the
00:48:18.240 show notes and also just go to her website, which is sewingmatters.co.uk. I'll put a link to that in
00:48:23.400 the show notes as well. And next week, we're going to be getting to the final episode of the Mary
00:48:31.800 saga, which is not to say the final episode of this season, but we're going to be looking at
00:48:37.760 Mary's legacy. And also we're going to be talking about her score, the Scandalicious score. It's
00:48:43.840 it's going to be a whole discussion. I have some special guests are going to be coming with their
00:48:48.280 thoughts about how she's going to score and all the various categories. There's also going to be
00:48:52.800 some special awards and things. Anyway, just kind of wrapping up Mary's saga as a whole is going to
00:48:59.020 be next week. So I am looking forward to sharing that with you all. And also note after that,
00:49:04.560 there are going to be more episodes in this season because there's a couple more people
00:49:08.320 from Mary Queen of Scott's life who are worth their own episodes. So stay tuned for that as well.
00:49:13.840 But anyway, so this is Vulgar History. My name is Anne Foster, and you can keep up with me on
00:49:20.740 various social medias. I do want to clarify. I don't mean like join all the social medias and
00:49:25.480 follow me on them. I just mean like if you happen to be on one of these things, look for me there.
00:49:29.680 So I'm on TikTok at Vulgar History. I'm on Instagram at Vulgar History Pod. I'm now,
00:49:34.380 ironically, given the topic of this episode and the title of this book, I'm on Threads
00:49:40.040 at Vulgar History Pod. And I also have a Patreon, which is patreon.com slash Anne Foster Writer.
00:49:46.200 And when you join there by giving a small monthly donation, you get early ad-free access to all
00:49:51.440 episodes of this podcast, as well as depending on what level you donate at, you also get access to
00:49:55.800 our special bonus episodes, including Vulgar Peace Theater, where I talk about costume dramas
00:50:02.080 in episodes. The episodes of Vulgar Peace Theater generally are longer than the movies themselves
00:50:07.660 that we talk about. I think that's, that's all the reminders. Oh, merch, obviously merch store.
00:50:13.680 So speaking of Mary Queen of Scots and her stitching and her cat stitching, there is a new,
00:50:20.100 newish design in the merch store, which is inspired by Mary Queen of Scots cat embroidery,
00:50:25.020 which is a much less depressing image because it was drawn by Jan Juppiter, my, my frequent
00:50:34.580 collaborator from the Netherlands. So it says a cat, but instead of the orange cat representing
00:50:38.980 Elizabeth, it is a tortoiseshell cat representing my cat Hepburn, who is next to me as I say this.
00:50:44.100 And instead of a lump of a mouse representing Mary Queen of Scots being depressed, it's a happy
00:50:49.020 little mouse who's just chilling. So anyway, it's gorgeous. I ordered myself, you can get this
00:50:53.640 design on t-shirts and stickers and mugs and all kinds of things, but you can also get it on a
00:50:58.400 pillow cover and I ordered one for myself and it just arrived and I love it. It's maybe my
00:51:04.460 favorite thing I've ever owned. So I have my own treason cushion and it makes, it brings me great
00:51:08.540 joy. Anyway, so there's two different merch stores. And I did that because if you're in the US,
00:51:14.440 Tee Public seems to work really well for you. And you can get to that one just by going to
00:51:18.280 vulgarhistory.com slash store. If you live not in the US and the shipping is better through a
00:51:24.200 service called red bubble and you can get the merch all the same designs at vulgarhistory.redbubble.com
00:51:30.160 again all those links are in the show notes thank you so much for joining me on this journée
00:51:34.800 this ongoing saga of mary queen of scots and yeah next week we're gonna be
00:51:40.500 looking at her score and all that sort of thing and so until next time keep your pants on and 1.00
00:51:47.580 your tits out. 0.99
00:51:50.160 Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Anne Foster and edited by Christina Lumagi. 0.99
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