Vulgar History - Author Interview： June Hur (A Crane Among Wolves)

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00:01:00.000 Hello, and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast.

00:01:14.060 My name is Anne Foster, and today I'm talking about Joseon Dynasty with author June Hur.

00:01:21.400 And I know I've recommended her books before on this podcast, but just to set your mind

00:01:26.140 back just so you know who she is and what she's what she's doing so she's written now four murder

00:01:33.100 mystery books that take place in historical Joseon dynasty era Korea so her first book was the

00:01:40.300 silence of bones which is about a 16 they're all about teenage girls solving murder mysteries in

00:01:45.760 Joseon dynasty era Korea so the first one is about a girl who is an indentured servant within the

00:01:51.640 police bureau who ends up involved in an investigation. That's The Silence of Bones.

00:01:57.140 Her second book, I'm mentioning this because I bring up a lot of her books during the interview

00:02:00.580 and I want you to know all the titles and which is which. Her second book, The Forest of Stolen

00:02:04.980 Girls, is about a girl who is trying to solve the mystery when her father goes missing while

00:02:10.440 investigating the disappearance of 13 young women. Her third book, which won the Edgar Award,

00:02:15.900 is called The Red Palace. And that's about a palace nurse and a royal investigator who team

00:02:20.280 up to look up a pattern of grisly murders and the crown prince is the prime suspect. Her newest book,

00:02:26.080 the one we're talking mostly about today, is A Crane Among Wolves, which I won't tell you the

00:02:30.400 plot of because we're going to talk about that during the chat. But I wanted to tell you the

00:02:33.780 context of all the books because they're all set in actual situations that were actually happening

00:02:38.300 in this era and time and place. And when I say era, this is like a hundreds of years long era,

00:02:44.460 if you remember from the Queen Min episode talking about the Joseon dynasty. And I love

00:02:49.040 talking to June about her process, how she comes across these sort of interesting actual real life

00:02:54.380 true crime situations in history, and then how she finds a way to make a teenage girl be solving a

00:03:01.340 murder in the middle of them. Her books are so good. I was really so delighted to be able to

00:03:05.100 talk to her. So this is my conversation with June Herr about her newest book, A Crane Among Wolves.

00:03:10.560 so i'm joined today by june her who is the author of well i guess let's say like three books and

00:03:20.620 coming up a fourth book like coming up just after this episode comes out like you can pre-order it

00:03:25.820 and then the book comes out very soon so welcome june thank you for having me i'm really excited

00:03:31.580 to talk to you first of all because i read your most recent book and i was like all in a row i

00:03:37.900 was just like I can't stop what's going to happen next it's very um propulsive and you describe the

00:03:43.400 book as um it reads like a historical k-drama and I was like it true I was reading it I'm like

00:03:49.760 truly is it truly is like that like I was just like next episode next episode was the feeling

00:03:55.520 I had but I wanted to talk to you first of all just like big picture so you've written four books

00:04:00.200 all of them about Chosan era Korea and they're all about young women and they're based on

00:04:07.900 real events not like specifically like the girls you invent are created I think but how did you

00:04:13.960 come across these specific settings um how where do you find these ideas from in general I'm drawn

00:04:23.980 to the chosen period mainly because it's it's the resources are most accessible I find personally

00:04:30.420 that the more further back I go in Korean history just the resources become even more and more

00:04:36.000 difficult and the general reason as to why I'm drawn to the Chosun period. But more specifically,

00:04:43.120 you know, regarding the books that I write, I always like to say when I every book that I write

00:04:47.360 is almost like a history class for me. So whenever I'm studying Korean history, I'm like, oh, this is

00:04:52.200 like a really interesting historical event or a really fascinating historical figure. Then I kind

00:04:58.020 of use that interest as an excuse to write a book because then I get paid to spend over a year

00:05:05.080 researching. So yeah, every book is a history lesson for me. So whatever event or figure I'm

00:05:11.760 interested in, I write a book about it. And then because I've always been fascinated by the lives

00:05:18.020 of women, I find that the Chosun period was a really difficult time to be a woman, mainly

00:05:24.460 because they upheld very strict Confucian values, which resulted in extreme gender segregation,

00:05:32.000 kind of like what you see in the Victorian era, the idea of the domestic and public sphere.

00:05:38.240 But it almost feels more severe because, yeah, like women, for example, noble women weren't

00:05:45.120 even expected to leave the house. Like it was like you belong in the house, like stay in the house. 0.69

00:05:49.820 You have to preserve your purity. So they'd even wear a changwoot, which is like a veil. 0.97

00:05:53.940 But this is only for like unmarried girls. It was the strictest for them. So like it outrages me 1.00

00:06:00.880 that women had to endure this kind of restriction.

00:06:04.200 But at the same time, as a writer,

00:06:06.120 it's like we thrive on conflicts, right? 1.00

00:06:08.500 And so the mere act of a unmarried girl 1.00

00:06:13.060 leaving the house to claim justice for herself 0.99

00:06:16.080 or to solve a mystery on her own

00:06:17.460 is an act of subversion and rebellion. 1.00

00:06:21.240 And so while it was hard for women back then,

00:06:24.800 at the same time, I really enjoy trying to figure out ways,

00:06:27.680 how do I give women agency during this period

00:06:29.820 when they were not supposed to have any. 0.76

00:06:32.740 You know, whenever we study history, 1.00

00:06:34.000 always find women have managed to just escape these kind of restrictions.

00:06:37.860 And so I kind of figure out my own way using writing 1.00

00:06:42.100 to figure out ways that women might have just subverted things 0.85

00:06:47.700 to chase after whatever it is they wanted.

00:06:51.060 And in the case of my books, it's solving a mystery and reclaiming justice.

00:06:55.040 Just personally, as a person, mysteries are my favorite kind of books to read.

00:06:58.740 So I'm just excited that that's the sort of books you write as well with all the history in it, too.

00:07:03.220 Because I mean, just speaking of K-dramas, I haven't watched lots, but the ones that I have watched are all like contemporary police procedural sorts of shows.

00:07:12.180 And so I was like, OK, well, and then I was reading your newest book, A Crane Among Wolves, and I was like, oh, this really feels like that, actually.

00:07:18.660 Like it feels like a police procedural crime drama, but set in olden times.

00:07:23.180 So there's that vibe of it as well.

00:07:25.040 yeah so you part of what you just said is part of what i'm so curious to learn from you as well

00:07:30.200 is how you find ways for your teen girl characters to to be involved to be protagonists in the story

00:07:39.380 and like affecting change and doing things and it's often they're in crisis like in a crane

00:07:45.460 among wolves like she's had we'll talk about that book specifically in a bit but i mean like there's

00:07:50.480 some sort of issue like that. Or also in some of your books, they have a job that kind of leads

00:07:55.840 them to this investigation. And I found that really interesting. Can you talk about the Red

00:07:59.680 Palace? So she's got a job as a palace nurse. Can you talk about like, in terms of women being so 1.00

00:08:06.620 tucked away and hidden, but there are these jobs that are required, and that's because of the gender 0.99

00:08:10.920 split, right? Yeah, so the book kind of revolves around the historical figure crowned Prince Hadov,

00:08:17.620 who is one of the most controversial princes in chosen history. And so I didn't want to write

00:08:23.920 from his point of view, but I wanted to somehow touch on that historical event. So instead of

00:08:31.180 doing it through the eyes of like, for example, another princess, I I'm also interested in the

00:08:36.060 lives of marginalized women. So I'm like, okay, how can I create this feeling of me and also

00:08:42.920 readers looking at history through a keyhole. And so I like, you know, I went down the list of all

00:08:48.960 the servants and palace women in the palace. And then I thought of the palace nurse called an

00:08:56.380 mainly because these palace nurses were among the few that actually had the permission to come in

00:09:03.560 and out of the palace. Whereas most palace women, they had to remain in the palace and they rarely 0.99

00:09:09.780 had the opportunity to live. And I felt like if I'm going to write a police procedural in Chosun, 0.99

00:09:14.980 a woman who could go in and out of the palace and also interact with investigators. So that's

00:09:19.620 how I figured out that I wanted to write about a palace nurse. And I find them so fascinating

00:09:24.620 because this profession developed not from being like, yeah, let's empower women, let's involve 0.96

00:09:30.200 them in the workforce of healing people. It was more like, okay, men are not allowed to touch

00:09:37.340 women whom they're not related to or like married to. And so there were cases where female royals

00:09:44.760 would be dying because they'd be like, I don't want a male physician to tend to me. And so this 0.86

00:09:51.080 is when around the 14th to the 15th century, this is when one of the kings were like, okay,

00:09:56.620 we need to develop some kind of system where we allow female servants to be educated to become

00:10:03.420 medical women. And so they went through one of like really intense training. They had to study 0.94

00:10:09.480 things that even like noblemen had to study for tests. And so they were like really educated.

00:10:15.540 And so I found that really interesting. So this is an example where I felt like women were able 0.96

00:10:19.780 to subvert like the system they were existing in. So that's kind of how I came up with the idea to 0.95

00:10:27.840 use a nurse as a heroine. And that I find that so interesting, because I mean, it's just when

00:10:33.940 you have such strict gender division, like the ultimate result of that is turns into like, okay,

00:10:39.460 well, then the only doctors are men and all the women can't get medical care. It's, it's just 0.82

00:10:46.160 interesting how that turns around to suddenly like, yeah, to sort of empower these women, but

00:10:52.340 Yeah, which is just such an interesting thing. And then you have a similar thing in your other book, the Silence of Bones, like where you have the police are investigating. But again, it's like there's corpses and only a woman can deal with a woman corpse.

00:11:08.280 yeah so these palace nurses or nurses in general who don't pass the medical exams they get demoted 1.00

00:11:16.660 to becoming a tamo so that's kind of how i learned of palace nurses early on in my um my research i 0.57

00:11:22.780 was just like oh okay so i'm learning about these female servants in police bureaus and i was like 1.00

00:11:28.100 oh okay so like these women were actually trying to become like enter a different profession and

00:11:33.200 And so that's kind of how the two books are connected in a way.

00:11:37.140 So actually explain that a bit more for people who haven't read that book yet.

00:11:41.680 So the people who they take, they get the training and they become the palace nurses,

00:11:45.260 but people who don't pass those tests, what happens to them?

00:11:49.560 So there's like different levels of nurses. 1.00

00:11:52.060 So there's like the average medical woman who works on common people and they belong 1.00

00:11:59.360 which is like a public medical office and then the cream of the crop the the girls who are like 1.00

00:12:08.300 super smart and ace their tests they're they're handpicked to join the palace so usually it's like 1.00

00:12:14.300 the more the average nurses who work in the common public offices if they fail there they become a

00:12:20.320 and it's almost like a temporary punishment period until they do better in their tests and then they

00:12:27.540 can become a nurse again. Structures like that, part of what I remember when I was reading about

00:12:33.140 the Choson period, which is like a massively long period, like it's like hundreds and hundreds and

00:12:38.320 hundreds of years, because there was this, in that sense, there was stability. And I found that

00:12:43.140 really interesting because if you look at England, for instance, it's just like dynasty after dynasty

00:12:48.520 and people are usurping and taking over. And that brings a sort of chaos to society because

00:12:52.880 you're switching but what I found when I was researching Queen Min is that the the Chosun

00:12:58.700 dynasty was so stable for so long and that allowed the country to develop in a way that's different

00:13:04.680 from a lot of other places because they had this I mean as your book show you know there's not

00:13:10.320 always amazing emperors in charge but there wasn't the constant sort of like invasion and stuff that

00:13:16.620 would that kind of forces the society to change they could really develop and I find that so 0.99

00:13:20.800 interesting that uh even practices like that like okay like what if someone we need to have women

00:13:26.760 who are nurses well what if they fail their tests like the fact that even that structure is there

00:13:30.720 it's just like it's so like that can only happen in a society that's been kind of consistent for

00:13:36.020 a long time I would think yeah there's like a lot of it was definitely a society that um put

00:13:44.080 education on a pedestal and and though there weren't there were like there were invasions 0.75

00:13:50.180 But like Korea always managed to somehow defend themselves, which is surprising because it's like Korea and then you have massive China and like this, like in Japan trying to like eat Korea. 0.76

00:14:03.500 But yeah, like they've, Korea has always, I think because there's that constant fear of invasion, they, Korea ended up becoming very focused on like, how do we survive? 0.77

00:14:15.000 How do we defend ourselves? So maybe that kind of translated into a very long dynastic period.

00:14:22.740 And part of that too, I just found interesting as well, because again, I just, I do a lot of

00:14:26.920 research on England, for instance, and there's these constant crisis there where it's like,

00:14:30.540 oh no, the King didn't have a son, like Henry VIII or something. It's like, I need to get a

00:14:34.800 new wife so I can get a son. But meanwhile, in Joseon era, they're like, well, I didn't have

00:14:38.340 a son. I'll just adopt someone. And then we'll just continue on that way. And it's like, that's

00:14:42.960 sensible that's convenient that all works really well um can you talk about the concept of like

00:14:50.060 just how the palace works and how extreme the power of the emperor would be in this era like

00:14:57.940 how protected and how how much is that like to me just like living today i'm just like how much is

00:15:04.360 that like a dictator and how much is that just like yeah yeah can you talk about that so in the

00:15:09.500 case of a crane among wolves that was a different situation where uh the king became a tyrant but in

00:15:16.760 most cases the king has factions and so you see it kind of like shift from reign to reign but in

00:15:26.520 some cases like the reign of king young joe that was like the 16th 17th century i'm really bad

00:15:34.300 of dates um but yeah in the case of king young joe um and other kings their their power is kind of

00:15:41.160 balanced out by factions and so it's not it's not really like a democracy but it's like the voices

00:15:48.340 of government officials really matter and so there were cases where the opinions of government

00:15:55.840 officials would actually outweigh the opinions of a king and kings would be very like careful like

00:16:03.600 trying to play the political game of like trying to like get government officials on their side

00:16:08.260 because that was the only way for them to make decisions. And it was around the time of King

00:16:14.880 Cheongjo, which is like the 18th, 19th century. That's when King Cheongjo was like, okay, like

00:16:20.580 I've seen like his own father die because of the factional power outweighing the power of royals. 0.55

00:16:28.340 And so that's when King Cheung-joo tries to shift the system and create new systems so that the word of a king outweighs the word of aristocrats and faction leaders.

00:16:41.180 And so there's always been factions to put kings in check.

00:16:45.100 And now for a quick advertising break.

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00:19:44.720 And we're back. Well, I mean, and that does lead us into the setting of a crane among wolves,

00:19:50.740 because this is what happens when the king becomes a tyrant and what sort of checks and

00:19:57.860 balances are there. And it seems like not much at that time. But can you explain the history

00:20:04.300 of the setting and who is the king at the beginning of a crane among wolves?

00:20:09.500 So the king is King Yeon-san, and his deposed name is Yeon-san-gun.

00:20:14.420 So Yeon-san-gun actually means Prince Yeon-san.

00:20:16.980 So once King Yeon-san was stripped of his power, they demoted him to a prince.

00:20:21.100 So that's why people refer to him as Yeon-san-gun.

00:20:23.660 But I'll just say King Yeon-san to avoid confusion.

00:20:26.660 So King Yeon-san, he grew up in a very, like, in, you know, air quotes, a tragic,

00:20:34.180 he had a tragic life in the sense that his so moving back moving back a bit what happened to

00:20:42.080 his mom was his mom got jealous that her husband the king had concubines and so there was this

00:20:49.060 case where she got really jealous and then she left a scratch on the king's face and the palace

00:20:54.760 was outraged because you're not supposed to scratch the face of a royal body so this was

00:21:01.020 considered really scandalous, really outrageous. And so the court politics kind of shifted in

00:21:10.140 disfavor of the queen. And so she ended up being deposed. And then later she ended up being poisoned

00:21:15.500 to death. And so that was what happened. And apparently the palace tried to cover it up so

00:21:21.880 that the next in line for the throne, which was Yeon San, wouldn't find out about this tragedy.

00:21:28.580 And so apparently they covered it up.

00:21:31.160 But there's this theory that Yeon-san always knew what happened to his mom,

00:21:35.620 but he kind of played along with like, yeah, I don't know what happened.

00:21:38.700 And when he became king, he actually ruled decently,

00:21:44.400 allegedly decently for the first 10 years.

00:21:47.340 And one of the theories is that during this time,

00:21:49.920 he was actually amassing his power in order to exact revenge.

00:21:52.860 So he kept quiet, acted like he was a good guy,

00:21:56.100 but he was actually planning revenge. That's one theory. And I think that theory is possible

00:22:02.420 because in 1504, he just suddenly snaps. And it's because one of the government officials is like,

00:22:09.660 oh, like, you know what, your mother-in-law, the mother of the deposed queen is actually still

00:22:15.500 alive. And he had no idea that his mother, no, not mother-in-law, grandmother was still alive.

00:22:21.280 Yeah, that his grandmother was still alive. And so he goes to meet his grandmother, maternal grandmother, and he finds out that that grandmother was still holding on to his executed mom's bloody robe.

00:22:35.160 And so he snaps and that's when he goes on this huge revenge spree. He kills all the officials that were involved in deciding to execute his mom, along with the concubines who might have influenced his father to kill his mom.

00:22:49.760 And he apparently killed other government officials who just existed in the palace.

00:22:54.540 But he was like, why didn't you stop my mom from being executed? 0.98

00:22:57.520 So he kills them all. 0.98

00:22:59.040 He even like exhumes the corpses of officials who were involved and like smashes their skeletons. 0.98

00:23:05.560 So he was like, so it's like, it's like 10 years of anger, like explodes.

00:23:12.100 And I feel like he realizes that he has so much power at this point.

00:23:16.280 that's when he becomes like super messed up. And he turns the Sunggyunkwan University,

00:23:23.280 which was back then the Royal Sunggyunkwan Academy into a brothel. He sets up a bureau to 0.97

00:23:30.180 go around the kingdom kidnapping women because his goal is to have 10,000 female entertainers

00:23:37.060 by the end of his reign. And he manages to kidnap and capture around a thousand or more.

00:23:42.760 and he also takes land from the people to turn into his hunting ground.

00:23:47.900 So he takes a huge part of Gyeonggi province, which is like a huge land,

00:23:52.240 and he just like makes it forbidden from anyone from entering.

00:23:56.060 What I found really fascinating was he actually puts a plaque on the,

00:24:00.060 he makes his officials wear a plaque that basically says, 0.99

00:24:03.180 don't criticize me or I'm going to cut off your tongue and cut off your head. 0.97

00:24:06.620 And so the question is like, why didn't the people rebel sooner? 1.00

00:24:10.080 But yeah.

00:24:10.540 And also he forbade what is reading and writing or just language.

00:24:15.760 He's like, he, he started, he once got this letter that was slandering him and he's like,

00:24:20.300 okay, I'm going to ban writing and I'm going to ban anyone from learning how to write.

00:24:25.100 So no one slanders me.

00:24:27.440 And he also brought in, I was just, I think this is mentioned in your book, but also after

00:24:31.500 I read the book, I was just like, I need to learn more about this.

00:24:33.680 So I also saw he, he did, he brought in like samples of everybody's writing.

00:24:38.040 So he could be like, who wrote this letter?

00:24:40.400 Let me compare everyone's handwriting in the whole kingdom.

00:24:43.900 Yeah, he was so paranoid.

00:24:45.840 He had everyone who was literate submit four pieces of document so that it would work as a fingerprint.

00:24:52.240 And if there was anyone caught teaching someone else how to read and write, they would also be punished.

00:24:59.300 I think even executed.

00:25:00.800 So it was pretty intense.

00:25:02.580 Yeah, so this is the setting of your new book.

00:25:06.780 so fun and it's the the setting of your book I'm gonna get you to explain it obviously yourself

00:25:14.300 but I'll just let the listeners know like it starts off he's in this era of being a tyrant

00:25:19.700 and he's been doing so for a while it's not your book is not about the shift from one to the other

00:25:24.900 so it's just people living in this era where he is this terrifying presence so like I'll get you

00:25:32.380 to explain the book but also just how like when you came across him as a figure and you thought

00:25:36.400 oh, I want to write a book about this. Like, what was your process to be like,

00:25:39.200 how am I going to put a mystery and a teenage girl in this era? Like, how did you come up with

00:25:45.000 that? All right. So A Karina Among Wolves is about a girl who's pretty bratty and selfish

00:25:53.960 and privileged. And she doesn't really care about the state of the kingdom until 0.99

00:25:58.880 her sister gets kidnapped by the tyrant king. And so she's on this mission to rescue her sister.

00:26:04.720 And then her path kind of crosses with this morally gray prince who is half-brother to the Tyrant King. And he is basically fed up by his half-brother and is like, he has to plan a coup. But in order to plan a coup, you need to network, you need to have people on your side.

00:26:22.820 and and so while Isu the female character doesn't really like the prince and he doesn't really like

00:26:30.380 her um their hate for each other kind of is transcended by their mutual hate for the king

00:26:35.420 and so they end up working together to rescue his sister and also overthrow the king so yeah like

00:26:41.720 when I was uh just studying about Korean history I read this passage about how there was a king

00:26:49.460 called King Yeon-chan who kidnapped over a thousand girls. And so first of all, my reaction

00:26:55.440 was like, oh, I didn't know this had happened in Korean history. As a Korean myself, I'm always

00:27:01.520 caught off guard by learning about things that I have seen in K-dramas, historical K-dramas.

00:27:06.140 I've seen King Yeon-chan in historical K-dramas, but I never had the historical context. So when

00:27:11.320 I stumbled on it, all these things I grew up watching, I'm like, oh, it connects now. So

00:27:15.620 that was one thing that sparked my interest the other thing was I read the passage about yeah like

00:27:22.620 how he kidnapped over a thousand women and I was just like how do you do that like why would people

00:27:28.680 let you do that because it's one thing for like you know Korean kings were known to have like

00:27:33.400 lots of concubines but it was more like there was like almost like a custom behind it not saying

00:27:41.260 that it's okay but you know it was still like a custom unit in the sense that you know palace

00:27:48.340 women would be promoted into becoming concubines or like the king would fall in love and then

00:27:54.300 promote her into a concubine um so there was a system to the madness but in the case of king

00:28:00.800 he legit just kidnapped women off the street like even married women so there was like

00:28:05.920 there was no it was breaking all the quote-unquote accepted custom of making women concubines and

00:28:14.560 actually they weren't even considered concubines they were just like they were more like he treated

00:28:18.960 them more as prostitutes so they weren't given the same advantage that a concubine might have 0.90

00:28:23.900 where because usually in Korean palaces concubines had authority they had almost some of the 1.00

00:28:31.660 advantages of being a wife. So none of that was given to them. They were just, yeah, they were 1.00

00:28:37.540 just abused and exploited and it was just horrible. And so I was interested in learning more about

00:28:45.920 this. And I think the biggest question that kind of hooked me was like, what happened to these

00:28:51.900 women after the revolution? So that was something I wanted to find out. And so I'm always interested

00:28:59.320 writing about women. And so in this case, I was a teenage girl. And for some reason, I really

00:29:05.000 wanted to write this bratty, privileged teenager who is kind of like, yeah, I don't care about the

00:29:12.120 kingdom. I don't care about politics. I just want a good life. But then what happens when, you know,

00:29:18.400 the political climate actually starts affecting you? I wanted to see a girl who goes from being 0.70

00:29:23.260 indifferent to the state of the country to being a girl who learns to care not just for her

00:29:28.900 immediate family, but for the people in her community as well. I have one specific question

00:29:35.100 about one thing that happens in your book, and I'm not going to spoil who is involved in it,

00:29:39.920 but there's a scene where there's a man and a woman and something happens where the man

00:29:47.600 instinctively offers his hand to the woman and they hold hands and then they're like,

00:29:51.260 oh no. Was that inspired by the Pride and Prejudice movie with the carriage hand scene?

00:29:58.280 it's probably so ingrained in me that it came out subconsciously actually before I wrote Korean

00:30:05.260 historicals I wrote Regency romances um and I think you know both for Joseon and Regency even

00:30:11.820 the Victorian era England there is that kind of forbiddenness that translates into tension where

00:30:18.280 it's like even a graze of two hands it's just like oh my gosh um so I think you know I love

00:30:24.760 that scene in Pride and Prejudice and I think I always try to find ways to add it into my sprinkle

00:30:31.180 it into my books in different ways that that specifically I was just like wait a minute

00:30:35.260 but it's Pride and Prejudice is not the only only thing you're right that that ever did that I was

00:30:41.080 just like I was curious that that was iconic yeah iconic one exactly um and so I do want to ask you

00:30:47.800 because you this book reads like a historical k-drama and I think that's where this is your

00:30:53.620 fourth book. And so I think readers have found you because of, between your first book and now,

00:31:00.460 K-dramas have become so much more mainstream and so much more popular. So you're, what's the

00:31:07.340 difference that you see between your first book coming out and now where you can say, this is

00:31:10.880 like a historical K-drama and people are like, great, I love those versus people being like,

00:31:14.860 what's a K-drama? Like, oh my gosh, so huge. You know, I can't say for sure,

00:31:22.880 I haven't like researched into this, but I feel a huge difference. So when my book, my debut came

00:31:30.520 out, like I knew there were fans of historical K-dramas out there, but like, I was just like,

00:31:34.980 oh, if only I could find a way to reach them, like just a way to be like, you like historical

00:31:39.940 K-dramas? Like, here's, here's my book. But, but I always felt like this barrier, like it wasn't

00:31:44.660 really like, they weren't actually finding it. So I was just like, ah, so kind of like frustrated.

00:31:49.540 But then I don't know if it's because I slowly grew a readership or because like we start to see more historical K-dramas on Netflix.

00:31:57.840 So, you know, the audience just expanded and like more people got to know about, you know, Korean history and they got more used to like their traditional outfit and the way stories are told.

00:32:09.080 So I don't know if it's because of Netflix or, you know, the Korean Hallyu wave or because, you know, just time just passed.

00:32:17.920 I feel like it might be a mishmash of both but then now with my book like my upcoming book I do

00:32:24.300 feel like I'm fine I finally found my target audience like I always had an audience before

00:32:30.160 but like I feel like I finally found a way to be like to like reach the historical kdrama fans

00:32:35.720 and so it's been such an amazing experience and and at the same time I'm starting to feel like

00:32:43.540 what a privilege it is because it's like okay people know what history um k dramas are now so

00:32:48.880 i could like use that as a pitch and it's such a privilege to be able to just like use a pitch like

00:32:55.600 that so yeah that's that's how i've been feeling well and because also i want to say this is your

00:33:01.080 fourth book but your other three all came out during a time when there wasn't live events they're

00:33:06.820 all listed on your website on your social media but do you want to just talk about the launch

00:33:10.200 events and things you have coming up. Cause this episode is going to come out, I think like a week

00:33:14.760 before your book launches. So everybody can, we'll hear this and they'll be able to come.

00:33:19.680 Yeah. So I, so I put my books came out during the pandemic. So there were no book, no in-person

00:33:26.480 book launches. Instead I had amazing like virtual events, but it just, I guess, you know, like it

00:33:32.640 feels almost like a rite of passage for an author to have at least one in-person book launch. And so

00:33:38.760 I never had that experience.

00:33:40.100 And so with A Crane Among Wolves, probably if left on my own, I'd be like, no, I'm an

00:33:44.560 introvert, like extreme introvert.

00:33:46.140 I'm just going to do another virtual one on Instagram live.

00:33:50.240 But my husband's like, he loves events and he's always like been so excited to have a

00:33:55.740 book launch for me.

00:33:56.460 So he's like, no, like I'm going to organize it all.

00:33:58.700 And so like he recruited like some of his friends.

00:34:01.060 And so we have, he has like a whole team.

00:34:02.940 um so he's planning the in-person book book launch event at type books in toronto and then

00:34:10.480 i have i can't go to i'm not able to fly over to england so there's a hybrid event in the uk with

00:34:17.200 the korean cultural center um and i'll be video linked into there and yeah another virtual one

00:34:22.540 like i was invited to go in person but i have two young kids so um there's one with the kreya

00:34:28.180 Society in New York. And so, so yeah, I'm like very excited, also nervous, but mostly excited

00:34:35.780 for these events. Now it's, it's, we were talking just before we were recording, but it's such an

00:34:40.920 interesting and strange position for you to be launching your fourth book, but it kind of feels

00:34:45.860 like a debut in that way to actually come face to face with your actual readers. And so I did want

00:34:53.920 to just sort of like conclude things with a question I had to ask you, which is what

00:34:58.300 K-dramas would you recommend to people who maybe are new to them or maybe just want to

00:35:03.400 learn more about, about these kinds of shows?

00:35:06.040 Yes.

00:35:06.960 I believe they're both on Netflix, but I'm not sure if they're there anymore.

00:35:12.960 But I would highly recommend The Red Sleeve.

00:35:15.520 And that was one of the best historical K-dramas I've seen that portrayed the genealogical trauma that came with the incident of Crown Prince Sado.

00:35:29.620 And it's just, you'll have to read into it, but it was like one of the most controversial slash tragic incidents in the Chosun period.

00:35:39.840 And I really loved how the Red Sleeve approached that event.

00:35:44.700 it has a romance, a love story that I really enjoyed. Yeah. Just be warned about the last

00:35:49.880 episode. And there's another drama that I'm still watching, but I'm, but it's like, it's a really

00:35:57.020 powerful and moving Korean drama. And I would highly recommend My Dearest. So those are the

00:36:02.380 two dramas I would recommend. What's My Dearest? What's the, what's that one about?

00:36:06.660 So My Dearest is set during the invasion of Korea. And it's, it's like a love story involving

00:36:14.400 uh these two this uh again it's she's kind of like this bratty girl privileged girl and and

00:36:22.640 then you see this amazing story arc of her starting to care for those around her and yeah it's just

00:36:28.060 set in the time of war and so I thought it was it was masterfully done it won so many awards

00:36:34.560 that's wonderful but also I hadn't just mentioning when you said earlier that more kdramas are on

00:36:40.180 Netflix I'm like yes no that's what the ones that I've watched I've been on there so I feel like

00:36:43.460 making it more you don't need to get a special street like people who are into it I know there

00:36:49.420 are like special streaming services you can get to like get even more but just exactly exactly

00:36:54.820 and there's a show that's on I'm like I think I need to get a Vicky subscription that's where I

00:36:58.440 am in my journey but um but people who just want to try it out it's like these are so much more

00:37:03.340 accessible than maybe they were before so you can just kind of find one that works for you

00:37:07.600 but thank you June so much for talking with me today I'm such a fan of yours so it's really

00:37:13.380 exciting to talk to you just in that way I'm really excited for your new book to come out

00:37:17.600 and for all the kdrama fans to read it and and to enjoy it thank you so much for all the wonderful

00:37:25.060 questions I had so much fun chatting with you so June's new book is a crane among wolves there's

00:37:33.300 a link in the show notes. Um, if you want to purchase a copy of that using, um, my partner

00:37:38.700 link from bookshop.org, but I mean, you can find this book wherever you get your books. It's a big

00:37:43.940 deal. I'm sure it's in every bookstore right now. Her other previous books, I also super recommend

00:37:48.080 the silence of bones, the forest of stolen girls, the red palace. And we didn't bring this up in

00:37:53.760 the episode, but coming out in 2026, she's working on a new book. There's going to be a retelling

00:38:00.840 of, or sort of an homage to Pride and Prejudice and Jane Austen, but set in Joseon era, Korean,

00:38:06.860 Korea. So it's going to be called Adoration. So look out for that. If you're listening to

00:38:11.160 this episode far in the future, if you're listening to this in 2026, go buy that book too.

00:38:15.560 Anyway, I was so excited to talk to June and I'm really, again, like her books are so compelling

00:38:20.220 and so good. And everything we talked about with like, like a historical K-drama, I'm so happy that

00:38:25.080 the fans of those historical K-dramas have found her books and I'm really so happy to see her

00:38:30.000 thriving in this career path and that she has her in-person events. You can keep up with her.

00:38:35.420 She has a newsletter and also all of her events are listed at juneher.com. And when you sign up

00:38:41.400 for the newsletter, she does send you a list of recommended historical K-dramas as well.

00:38:46.000 And I have news of my own to tell you, which is that next week we're starting season seven

00:38:51.520 of Vulgar History. So more information about that will be dropping in this week coming up.

00:38:57.420 I'll be posting lots of information about what to expect, what the theme is.

00:39:01.520 That's going to be posted on all the places where you can follow me online, which is basically

00:39:06.000 Instagram at the moment.

00:39:07.700 So we're on Instagram at vulgarhistorypod.

00:39:10.040 And also I'm going to be sharing some information on my Patreon, free on the Patreon as well,

00:39:15.540 which is at patreon.com slash Anne Foster Writer.

00:39:18.160 But I mean, otherwise, just like stay tuned next week.

00:39:20.640 Season seven Vulgar History is kicking off and I'm so excited.

00:39:23.920 I'm working so hard on it.

00:39:25.120 I'm so excited for you to finally hear all the stories that I've been doing.

00:39:29.000 So I also have a newsletter, speaking of newsletters.

00:39:33.220 So it's called Vulgar History a la Carte.

00:39:35.060 It's a weekly newsletter where every week I share my writing, an essay that I've done

00:39:39.920 about a woman from history.

00:39:42.200 At the moment, I'm going through the Tudor era.

00:39:45.440 So we went through the Six Wives of Henry VIII.

00:39:47.980 We talked about the Tudor matriarchs.

00:39:50.020 And now we're talking about some tutors who you know from this podcast, the Gray Sisters,

00:39:53.720 members uh lady jane gray lady katherine gray lady mary gray is where we are at the moment and

00:39:58.980 you can follow me the newsletter is also free if you just go to vulgar history.substack.com

00:40:04.200 that is where you will find that and you can also support the podcast on patreon patreon.com

00:40:10.400 slash ann foster writer so i do post some information there for free like the book club

00:40:15.240 is free the stuff um telling you about the new season is going to be free and also if you become

00:40:20.000 a paid Patreon member. So for as little as $1 a month, you get early ad-free access to all

00:40:25.440 episodes of Vulgar History, including like archived ad-free access to all previous episodes

00:40:31.260 as well. If you pledge $5 or more a month, you get access to bonus episodes that I do.

00:40:36.640 So this is like Vulgar Peace Theater, where I talk about costume dramas with Alison Epstein, 0.93

00:40:41.140 Lana Wood Johnson, as well as episodes of So This Asshole, talking about horrible men

00:40:45.720 from history and based on some of the people we're going to encounter in season seven i think 0.97

00:40:51.300 i might have to vent at least one more episode of so this asshole coming up pretty soon if you

00:40:57.000 want to listen to just specific bonus episodes those are available you can just purchase one

00:41:02.040 episode if you just like really want to hear us talking about the road to wellville or talking

00:41:05.980 about brotherhood of the wolf or i claudius which is our next upcoming book of peace theater you can

00:41:11.140 just purchase that for five dollars without becoming a patron member and that's also available

00:41:15.200 to do at patreon.com and foster writer as well. We also have our beautiful brand partner common

00:41:20.580 era jewelry, which is a hundred percent woman owned business that makes beautiful heirloom

00:41:25.900 pieces inspired by women from history. So these pieces are made entirely New York city.

00:41:32.400 So everyone involved has healthcare and good wages. It's a company I'm really proud and happy

00:41:36.880 to be partnered with. The designs are inspired by women from history as well as from classical

00:41:41.960 mythology. So they have their latest collection is all about difficult women. So this is people 0.91

00:41:47.600 we've talked about on the podcast. Boudicca, Cleopatra, Agrippina, who's someone who also

00:41:52.680 appears in I, Claudius, which I've been watching. Anne Boleyn also snuck her way in there as well

00:41:57.460 as mythological women like Medusa and Aphrodite. Sappho is also there. There's also beautiful

00:42:03.400 hair bows and scrunchies and things. And Vulgar History listeners can always get 15% off all

00:42:09.600 items from Common Era by going to commonera.com slash vulgar or using code vulgar at checkout.

00:42:15.420 And actually speaking of brand partners, so I do also have a bookshop at bookshop.org.

00:42:23.020 Bookshop.org is an alternative way to buy books online without using major corporations that you

00:42:30.040 might be thinking of. And so the thing with bookshop.org is that a little bit of money when

00:42:34.100 you use my link is it goes back to support me and the show. But also this is where I just found

00:42:39.500 their interface really helpful. I talk about books on this podcast all the time, like today,

00:42:45.060 June Her's books, but also if you want to look up the books and other author interviews we've done,

00:42:49.660 or just books I've recommended, books that I used as reference for previous seasons.

00:42:55.420 If you go to my bookshop.org page, there's lists for all those. There's a list of authors

00:43:00.660 interviewed in vulgar history, historical fiction I recommend, all the books I used for season six.

00:43:05.660 there's something about Mary Queen of Scots, all the books I used as research for the

00:43:10.040 international season. Like they're all, I try to make it organized as well as I can. I am,

00:43:14.240 you may not know, a librarian. So organizing books is kind of just in my nature.

00:43:20.620 Anyway, and I do have a list that's going on for season seven. So you can get some clues there

00:43:25.640 what that's going to be about. Although I am going to be announcing it super soon as well.

00:43:30.920 And we also have Vulgar History Merge, if you want to represent the Tits Out Brigade.

00:43:35.660 you can get that at vulgarhistory.com slash store. Or if you're outside the US, you can also shop

00:43:40.820 at vulgarhistory.redbubble.com. Just the shipping is a bit better at Redbubble if you're outside the

00:43:47.020 US. You can get in touch with me and I do always like to hear back from you. I'm not able to always

00:43:54.380 respond to everybody, but I do try my best to read every message. And I do like to hear suggestions

00:44:00.360 from you of new people who might be interesting to talk about on the podcast or authors who you

00:44:07.320 think would be good for me to chat with. Or if you live somewhere where I've talked about,

00:44:12.180 or you've visited one of those places, if you want to send me pictures, because I'm not

00:44:15.660 a well-traveled person, I like hearing secondhand from other people who actually are able to visit

00:44:20.080 these places. You can get in touch with me. There's a form at vulgarhistory.com, or you can

00:44:24.700 email me at vulgarhistorypod at gmail.com, or just send me a DM on Instagram as well,

00:44:29.500 where I am at a vulgar history pod transcripts of recent episodes are available at vulgarhistory.com

00:44:35.040 you just click on the episode you're looking for and the transcript should be there if it's one of

00:44:38.600 the ones we've done so far thank you so much to Aveline Malek for providing these transcripts 0.92

00:44:43.180 next week season seven kicks off so I mean you know you got to get your pants on and your tits 0.80

00:44:47.940 out vulgar history is researched written and hosted by ann foster that's me the editor is 0.99

00:44:54.620 Christina Lumagi. Theme music is by the Severn Duo. The Vulgar History Show image is by Debra Wong.

00:45:01.780 Transcripts are written by Aveline Malek. Find transcripts of recent episodes at vulgarhistory.com.

00:45:11.880 Chew on this bold question from Dantine Gum. Is it ever okay to compliment a millennial

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00:46:22.620 to podcasts there are vampires out there they walk among you shoulder to shoulder in the dark

00:46:32.560 Heading to work, heading home, going to the bar.

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00:46:45.480 We are a fading kind, and I am the first one created in so long.

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Vulgar History - May 08, 2024

Author Interview： June Hur (A Crane Among Wolves)

Episode Stats

Transcript