Vulgar History - Author Interview： Sarah Horowitz (Red Widow： The Scandal That Shook Paris and the Woman Behind It)

00:00:00.000 Hi, I'm Serial. And I'm Umberto. And we're the hosts of So You Think You Can Rule Persia.

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00:00:11.160 If you've been enjoying Anne's look into the cool women of history,

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00:00:31.700 hello and welcome to vulgar history a feminist women's history comedy podcast my name is ann

00:00:49.540 foster and our international season which seems to be never ending and i don't i don't mind i

00:00:56.520 just keep finding stories to talk about and this story actually kind of found me so today we're

00:01:01.440 going to be talking about marguerite steinheil who was a french woman and accused murderer and

00:01:08.140 the subject of a new book that's just come out called the red widow the scandal that shook paris

00:01:12.660 and the woman behind it all it was written by sarah horowitz who is joining me for this podcast

00:01:18.980 so sarah is a professor of history at w and l university in virginia where she is also head of

00:01:25.360 the Women's Gender and Sexuality Studies program. She has a PhD in history from the University of

00:01:30.220 California, Berkeley, and has published in scholarly journals, as well as the Washington

00:01:34.240 Post. The Red Widow is her second book. And it's very readable. It's kind of like right at the

00:01:40.820 intersection of like scandalous women's history and true crime. And we talk a bit in this

00:01:45.820 conversation, like she's very much leading the story. She is telling me the story of Marguerite

00:01:51.140 Steinheil and all of the twists and turns. But we get into sort of how I found out about her

00:01:56.680 and her book. And I super recommend the book. And I hope you enjoy this conversation of a

00:02:01.860 historical figure that of all the historical figures we've talked about in vulgar history

00:02:05.900 is definitely one that I had never heard of before. And I'm so grateful to Sarah Horowitz

00:02:11.600 for joining me to talk about this. Okay, so welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's 1.00

00:02:17.540 History Comedy Podcast. My name is Anne Foster, and I'm joined today by Sarah Horowitz.

00:02:23.560 Hi, I'm so thrilled to be on your show. I want to tell you first, I should have told you this

00:02:29.140 before I started recording, but I came across like a few months ago, just like a thing saying,

00:02:34.360 like, oh, this book is coming out. And I had written it down. I'm like, oh, when this book

00:02:37.000 is published, you'll read this because this might be a good podcast episode for me. And then your

00:02:41.840 publicist contacted me to be like, hey, do you want to talk about this book? I'm like, even better,

00:02:46.280 like instead of me like reading the book and like recapping it like what about the book's author

00:02:50.640 well I'm so thrilled to be on your show she does seem to like fit with the sort of you know

00:02:57.880 scandalous ladies of your theme and also I really really the like lesser known you know yes yes but

00:03:07.200 people who were like a big splash in their era and then just like five minutes later no one knew

00:03:13.320 about them anymore right exactly yeah yeah so my first question like we're going to talk about the

00:03:18.940 story of this woman but first like how on earth did you come across her yeah so about 10 years

00:03:26.020 ago I was on a tour of Père Lachaise Cemetery in Paris with some friends and as we were going past

00:03:33.600 the tomb of Félix Faure who was president of France in the 1890s our tour guide kind of had

00:03:40.280 to mention that Faure had died of a stroke he had while he was having an assignation with his

00:03:47.820 mistress, and then said that about a batch of years later, the mistress's husband and mother

00:03:55.000 had ended up murdered. And the tour guide strongly implied that she had had something to do with the

00:04:00.140 murders. And I was like, this is not true. This is so improbable. This is an urban legend. It's

00:04:06.960 kind of the thing that like the french people like to talk about you know their politicians

00:04:10.520 and their politicians love lives and then i started reading about the mistress whose name

00:04:15.620 is marguerite senile and it was like oh no he's right and the story is so much more bananas um

00:04:22.660 than he had been able to say in you know the two minute description then i just got kept getting

00:04:29.500 more and more invested in the story and i went into the archives and it was just it felt like

00:04:35.900 falling into a gold mine because even what's been published about her, and there have been a few

00:04:40.560 books about her, primarily in France, but also some written in English, they, you know, didn't

00:04:48.180 really look into the archives and just missed this wild treasure trove of information about her and

00:04:54.840 about the murders. I want to say now just fully, so the title of your book, so the title is The

00:05:00.160 red widow and then the subtitle says it all so the scandal that shook Paris and the woman behind it

00:05:06.160 all yep that's her very scandalous so Marguerite so you like you got access do you read French

00:05:14.780 I'm assuming I do yes and 19 late 19th early 20th century handwriting is not that

00:05:21.700 hard to figure out and also some of the archival sources are typewritten right I think like early

00:05:28.820 uses of typewriter which is wonderful they're so easy to read that's perfect yeah so like put us

00:05:34.500 in a place in time like what when was she born like I'm just assuming you know all these facts

00:05:38.720 off the top of your head but like if you don't that's fine no no it's great she was born in 1869

00:05:43.980 in Beaucourt which is a town in eastern France it's an industrial town that was at the time

00:05:51.900 dominated by the firm Jappie Brothers, which they were kind of, it was a metalworking firm.

00:05:59.500 And she was from that family. She was from the Jappie family. But her father was sort of the

00:06:06.860 black sheep of the family and got kicked out of the family business for all his wild shenanigans,

00:06:13.660 including marrying a woman of a much humbler background. And so she lives there for her 0.98

00:06:20.800 adolescence. She marries a Parisian artist named Adolf Steinelle in 1890. Yes, sorry,

00:06:33.560 and she goes to live with him. And she lives in Paris basically from 1890 to 1909. And this sort

00:06:41.640 of almost two decades where she just has this wildly scandalous life in Paris, you know, 1.00

00:06:47.480 making her way into parisian high society through sex work and she is when she arrives in paris

00:06:56.260 she figures out that her husband adolf is a huge disappointment for many reasons he's not very

00:07:02.400 ambitious uh he's very kind of resigned to beating being essentially a mediocre artist and he also

00:07:11.760 has affairs with both men and women, which she's not super fond of. And he's much older than her

00:07:17.140 too. And so she decides that she's going to stay married with him because divorce was very

00:07:23.380 scandalous. But what she's going to do to make some money and find a place for herself is to 0.99

00:07:30.940 start having affairs with prominent men. That was less scandalous than divorce. 1.00

00:07:35.720 Yes. Isn't that wild?

00:07:38.600 Yes. 0.87

00:07:39.740 The problem with divorce is that there's no no-fault divorce at the time. 0.76

00:07:45.720 So that means that the family would have had to air its dirty laundry in public, 1.00

00:07:52.540 which would have essentially meant to air her husband's affairs with men.

00:07:59.160 And she has evidence for it and she considers it.

00:08:02.360 But affairs are something you can keep quiet.

00:08:05.720 right or you can keep it sort of confined within the world of like a Parisian elite in her case

00:08:13.500 and so what I was really interested in is there's this Parisian elite they have enormous amounts of

00:08:21.400 political power economic power prestige and one of the their sort of you know reasons why they

00:08:29.660 say like we have all this you know right to be at the top of society is we're much better behaved 0.92

00:08:35.320 than those poor people right but in practice they're all sleeping with one another yeah 0.97

00:08:41.760 right and so um the to negotiate that tension they have to always like maintain this facade

00:08:48.820 of propriety and kind of keep their sexual shenanigans somewhat hidden um and so she fits 0.88

00:08:56.940 into this world because divorce is public so that's super right that's super scandalous

00:09:02.740 but like just having affairs with tons and tons of prominent men you can keep that quiet and so

00:09:10.440 she starts having affairs with these prominent men um her first lover is actually her husband's

00:09:15.720 best friend which is a great way to get back at him yeah um and he's a prominent uh sort of he

00:09:22.680 was a very prominent jurist he was essentially like attorney general and uh then she starts

00:09:28.140 having other affairs particularly with like important officials politicians industrialist

00:09:34.220 financiers we think some like kind of you know members of various european royal families who

00:09:41.200 are visiting paris to enjoy its many pleasures um and what she does is she um doesn't want to 0.99

00:09:49.360 directly engage in exchanges of sex for money because that would be to be sort of like like 1.00

00:09:55.580 one of the poor people and so she basically makes a deal with her lovers that if they buy

00:10:01.720 one of her husband's paintings she will have an affair with them that's perfect so i was just 0.94

00:10:07.300 gonna ask him like what's in this for her besides just like the fun of like having affairs but yeah 0.89

00:10:11.740 so it's like there's a financial benefit to this she's not just like i'm just like gonna have sex 1.00

00:10:15.600 with people because i like to yeah okay and that way too she gets to boost her husband's prestige 1.00

00:10:20.180 she's trying to kind of make him into a society artist right if these important people have the

00:10:26.020 paintings by your husband then he becomes okay yeah right no one actually wants his paintings

00:10:30.600 they're not great paintings but she's like super charming super charismatic very seductive so they

00:10:39.060 all end up buying his paintings um to have an affair with her i'm just like sorry i'm just 0.78

00:10:45.160 picking up my copy of your book because i'm just like what did she look like like she was very 0.89

00:10:49.640 beautiful as well i think so what's really interesting to me is she's beautiful but she's

00:10:55.300 not sort of conventionally attractive by the standards of her day um she's a somewhat fuller

00:11:01.200 figure than the kind of wasp wasted sort of beauties who are like on postcards but i think

00:11:07.940 that's part of the attraction is that you i think it's like a milf thing um right that you're sort 0.55

00:11:14.500 of getting this like bourgeois grand dame um who sort of you know dresses more respectably than

00:11:24.960 other sex workers but underneath it all is this like roiling current of sexuality yeah okay and 1.00

00:11:33.440 that's also an interesting level to it as well like that she it speaks to her charisma and her 1.00

00:11:38.680 seductiveness that she wasn't like the typical yes yes yes and she apparently her voice was the 1.00

00:11:45.100 thing that drew people in i think is really interesting yeah yeah this is a super seductive 1.00

00:11:51.380 voice she's also very good at reading a room and so um her kind of biggest conquest is uh the 0.88

00:11:59.560 president of france was he the president at the time yes okay so it's not like she's like hooked

00:12:05.400 up with him and then he became oh no okay okay yeah he's president they meet while she's on

00:12:09.820 vacation in the alps um in 1897 he falls in love with her she's sort of like me i don't really

00:12:18.420 care yeah but i love the prestige yeah and she becomes this kind of political broker like you

00:12:26.460 know if you want a better position in the french government if you want a promotion you go through 0.93

00:12:31.500 her she gets a lot of relatives better positions wait so she's like the mistress but it's like

00:12:38.040 a la the mistress of louis the 14th like it becomes it's not just like she's the person

00:12:42.460 he's sleeping with she like gets like this political power because he cares for her so

00:12:47.360 much she's able to like yeah okay okay yeah i actually think a lot of people at the time

00:12:52.680 really compare to one of the kind of royal mistresses of the old regime right they're

00:12:58.100 kind of like Madame de Pompadour's these like very important kind of political brokers you

00:13:03.280 wouldn't necessarily approach the king directly but you would go through the mistress because

00:13:07.340 she's more accessible and you go through the mistress rather than through the wife because

00:13:10.640 the mistress is probably more amenable to that sort of thing yeah yes yes and is presumed to 1.00

00:13:15.960 have more sway because she can always tell her lover like I won't have sex with you yeah yeah

00:13:21.280 um so then uh he dies of he has a stroke in 1899 and basically he has the stroke while they're

00:13:33.860 you know doing their thing in the elize palace which is like the french equivalent of the white 0.95

00:13:38.980 house uh and then like the legend is that she is performing oral sex on him i don't know if that's 0.99

00:13:48.200 true. That's just the kind of rumor that circulates around in Paris. And the legend also is that he 0.95

00:13:56.160 was gripping her hair so tightly that his aides had to come in and cut her hair, which sounds

00:14:03.460 awful if that's true. Yeah. I just saw, sorry, total sidebar. I don't know how widespread this

00:14:11.560 is, but the algorithm showed me this like video of a show. I don't know what it is. It's like a

00:14:15.980 judge judy type show where it was like a mistress and then the wife and they were talking it was 0.99

00:14:22.600 literally like that the mistress was having like a modern day person yeah he's having sex with 0.83

00:14:27.360 the husband and when the husband had a heart attack and died um but the i'm oh i won't get

00:14:32.540 all the details anyway i was just like i read that at the same time i was reading like your book and

00:14:36.280 i'm just like oh this is just a thing it's like if someone's gonna die during sex like it's gonna

00:14:40.800 to be not with your wife exactly what happens yeah yeah and then I think she goes on to blackmail

00:14:47.980 his widow I'm sure okay this is the thing like just everything you've said like we're it's gonna

00:14:54.180 get wilder listeners just know but like she is like an ambitious person who takes like every

00:15:00.820 opportunity to like find an angle for herself like she's just like a top-notch grifter opportunist 0.99

00:15:08.220 Yes. 1.00

00:15:08.760 I have no doubt that she tried to blackmail somebody.

00:15:11.940 As soon as he died, she's just like,

00:15:13.440 how can I turn this to my advantage?

00:15:15.200 Like, this is who we're talking about.

00:15:16.900 Like, she's just like, let's do it.

00:15:19.020 Yes.

00:15:19.860 I think she's sort of like a modern day Anna Delvey

00:15:23.220 or Elizabeth Holmes,

00:15:24.920 and that she's had so much ambition. 0.69

00:15:27.180 She has so much hustle.

00:15:29.140 She can't really stop lying. 1.00

00:15:31.900 And she's not really using her talents

00:15:33.800 for the best purposes.

00:15:35.180 um but yeah she's really like she's always trying to figure out the angle but also like them too

00:15:41.660 those are two great examples because like both of them like you're so persuasive that you're able to

00:15:46.940 get very wealthy people to trust you and believe you while you are this like like james bond level

00:15:53.820 like scheming person yes yeah yes but you're also a woman so they're like oh well we wouldn't think

00:15:59.300 the worst of you right exactly um so she after four dies i think she maybe blackmails um his

00:16:07.600 widow at some point she has a an affair with one of her cousins to get back at her family who she

00:16:15.680 hates um yeah so that's a thing that happens and she is also like notoriously a bad friend 0.85

00:16:25.200 friend um and all her female friends really hate her and one of them becomes convinced that marguerite

00:16:31.440 tried to poison her it's not actually the case but if you could imagine that you have a fight

00:16:37.300 with one of your friends um and then you're like well she must be trying to poison me

00:16:41.520 like that says a lot about who you are and who your friend is yeah if if your mind leaps right

00:16:47.600 to that like that even if that's not true the fact that you could think that just kind of speaks to

00:16:51.640 exactly what you said it's like what is this relationship okay yeah yeah so um by 1908

00:16:58.660 she's really searching for an exit from her marriage she's strongly considering divorcing 0.64

00:17:05.360 her husband he doesn't want to get a divorce though she's sort of in search of a lover who 0.99

00:17:11.680 will marry her but she wants to like square that away before she divorces him like she wants to 0.99

00:17:16.660 have that like rebound prepared i think so i think she kind of wants to know where she's going

00:17:23.760 yeah it's like it's like you don't leave your job till you have the new job lined up

00:17:27.360 exactly exactly and on may 31st 1908 um the valet of the household like he wakes up early in the

00:17:38.740 morning he goes downstairs and he finds Adolf the husband and also Marguerite's mother murdered

00:17:48.220 dead of apparent strangulation and Marguerite tied to a bed crying out for help and she

00:18:00.260 you know he the valet like opens the door calls for the police the police rush in

00:18:07.640 they start investigating these murders and marguerite is the only witness and so she says

00:18:16.340 that um the a red-headed women and three robed men broke into the house intended to rob it

00:18:26.760 they had thought that the house would be empty but once they find that the owners are there

00:18:33.720 They decide to murder the husband and mother, but spare her because they think that she's the Adolf and Marguerite's adolescent daughter.

00:18:47.080 Oh, and she's how old?

00:18:49.680 Marguerite is, let's see, she is 39.

00:18:53.880 Okay, so that's just like I see some issues with this narrative.

00:18:58.480 Yes, there are some issues with this narrative.

00:19:00.560 it's also there are no signs of a break-in there are no signs of struggle on anyone's bodies um

00:19:07.780 there are valuables left in plain sight um the house is like more or less in order like there's

00:19:15.340 some kind of cabinets um and drawers that have been rifled through um and it there's a cord

00:19:23.440 around her husband's neck to make it seem like he'd been strangled with a rope but in fact

00:19:28.600 the autopsy shows he was strangled with someone's bare hands right yeah okay and there's a cane by

00:19:35.640 his side to make it seem like he had tried to fight off an attacker but um like again there

00:19:45.180 are no signs of struggle on his body other than these two very light bruises on his arms okay

00:19:51.940 I'm going to stop you here just to ask a quick question, which is like, how good are detectives

00:19:58.840 in France at this time? Because I read a lot of murder mystery novels. I watch Law and Order. I'm

00:20:03.360 just like, here's some issues. But I'm like, but would they have thought of those things then?

00:20:06.900 Or was it so badly staged? Even like the 1900s police are like, this is clearly suspicious.

00:20:14.320 So that is a great question. The public and the press are like, this is suspicious.

00:20:19.380 this does not make any sense she has to be lying but the police and the authorities are like oh

00:20:27.900 uh she was more or less telling the truth and we're gonna try and catch these desperately

00:20:33.900 right like this is red-haired woman and the robed men like right the robed men very

00:20:40.240 inconspicuous people yeah yes also wearing like hats like sombreros so that does not make sense 0.56

00:20:47.140 um and you know so i think it's not that the police are incredibly dumb it's that she had a 0.78

00:20:55.180 lot of sway oh all of her lovers all of her lovers including perhaps the chief investigator

00:21:03.140 into the double murders okay that's you know it's i was like why wouldn't she think ahead

00:21:08.420 these details and i'm like she didn't have to yeah so there are two theories there's like one

00:21:14.380 theory that she did it um and there's another theory that it was actually one of her extremely

00:21:20.040 powerful lovers um who goes over the house for an assignation and um he and marguerite end up

00:21:27.500 fighting um and then like this sort of in the midst of this the husband is murdered and what

00:21:34.400 and the mother was also strangled with hands uh this is so this is like totally weird yeah um

00:21:40.440 Like, the presents, like, why was the mother there?

00:21:42.740 Did she live with them, just in general?

00:21:44.860 No, she was visiting.

00:21:46.420 Okay.

00:21:47.360 Yeah.

00:21:48.380 So she was just, like, visiting at the time.

00:21:50.820 And the daughter was staying at the, basically, Adolph and Margaret's country house.

00:21:55.720 Because they were going to go to the country house.

00:21:58.320 But the mother had, like, come in, I think, the day before.

00:22:03.120 And she had done all these errands with Margaret.

00:22:06.440 and then they decide not to go to the country house

00:22:10.260 because the mother's has arthritis

00:22:12.300 and that's acting up.

00:22:14.120 So they're gonna like basically stay over there overnight

00:22:17.400 and then go and reunite with the daughter

00:22:19.940 in the country house.

00:22:21.160 Okay, I know you're gonna get to this,

00:22:22.660 but just like as the questions occur to me,

00:22:24.160 I wanna ask, which is like, 0.72

00:22:25.600 what would be the motivation to kill the mother

00:22:27.360 just that she saw, she happened to be there

00:22:29.540 because of the arthritis and she saw,

00:22:32.120 like this is the night that Marguerite 0.94

00:22:33.900 was gonna kill the husband allegedly 0.80

00:22:35.440 and the mother was a witness so she just had to kill her like was there any animosity or 0.89

00:22:40.840 no there's well i mean i think so margaret i think is often disappointed with her mother

00:22:46.920 um her mother has a very complicated life wait it's her mother it's her mother oh i thought it

00:22:53.020 was his mother no no no it's her mother her mother oh okay okay yeah it's her mother i think

00:23:00.560 that marguerite really loves her mother and is actually very protective of her mother

00:23:04.580 and her mother has a very complicated life so her father who's from this very wealthy family

00:23:11.320 and the mother was like like not so rich yeah right exactly so at 26 years um when her father

00:23:18.020 is 26 he is staying at an inn um and falls in love quote unquote with the 14 year old daughter

00:23:25.520 of the innkeepers yeah yeah and then two years later um he marries her is he wait but he's not

00:23:34.180 already married no wait that's the mother wait that's the mother that's the mother was the 14

00:23:39.300 year old daughter of the innkeepers okay okay yes yes and i think there's also a lot of evidence

00:23:46.180 that he physically abused her and so you know i think we could kind of understand that she's like

00:23:52.780 really not able in certain ways to like fully be an adult um because her husband doesn't allow that

00:24:00.640 and so marguerite is often disappointed at how kind of childlike her mother is um we could

00:24:08.420 understand like her mother did not have a sort of real childhood in certain respects so the

00:24:15.720 there are a lot of people including myself who don't actually think that marguerite

00:24:20.760 was the perpetrator um there is however some evidence that the mother's death was accidental

00:24:27.720 um and basically what the police say at the time is that um someone stuffed a gag in the mother's

00:24:37.000 mouth and the gag was stuffed in so forcefully that it pushed the mother's dentures back into

00:24:45.320 her throat and suffocated her right horrible horrible way to die yeah and not that there's

00:24:52.840 a good way to die but that sounds like a really but even what you've told me like again from my 0.97

00:24:57.340 knowledge based on like murder she wrote episode law and order like a woman doesn't kill by

00:25:04.460 strangling with her hands yeah and you know adolf was a lot larger yeah she was if there's no signs

00:25:14.140 of struggle than like right unless he was like i don't know whatever drug but then it's like if

00:25:18.840 he's drunk then you just kill him by drugging anyway there's i've got a lot of questions here

00:25:22.620 but like this is again read the book i i also think um you know like there were so many ways

00:25:33.060 that she could have gotten rid of him that did not involve this sort of something that would

00:25:42.580 have been so public right and she could have just like slowly poisoned him no exactly and I feel

00:25:47.820 like she's like you were saying you know like there's the thing where the friend was like is

00:25:50.880 she poisoning me it's like we know that she's like a crafty clever person yes but she's doing

00:25:55.160 all this stuff like the affairs and everything like it's all in the shadows like it's all she's

00:25:59.180 not out there in the public eye doing stuff yes but this is like it well I guess just the inclusion

00:26:06.060 of the the family members it's like giving me like lizzie borden but france yeah yeah but okay

00:26:15.160 so something's off about it the fact that she's still alive weird right she is initially not

00:26:21.820 accused of it right right and the again i think the chief investigator there's some evidence that

00:26:30.840 He's either, like, an admirer who's on his way to becoming a lover or one of her lovers.

00:26:37.760 Well, I would love, sorry, I know that there has been, like, at least a TV show.

00:26:41.480 I just had a vision where it's, like, again, if this is murder she wrote, like, she'd go over and she'd be like, wait, that painting on the wall of your office, is that?

00:26:48.880 Wait a minute.

00:26:49.880 Because anyone with a painting basically is one of her lovers.

00:26:52.580 So that would be how I would do it.

00:26:55.460 Right. And there's also, you know, like, I think she's so well connected within the kind of French government that, you know, I think there are a lot of people who very possibly would have pulled strings for her. And so what the authorities say after the murders is they're like, you know, we were trying to find the perpetrators. They were just common criminals. There's nothing.

00:27:19.240 just like men in robes and sombreros walking down the street like so many people are yeah

00:27:26.660 right exactly and you know we're we're hot on the trail and then i think they essentially try and

00:27:32.140 like bury the case um which you do you just don't give any interviews to the press um you just say

00:27:39.060 there's no news you know unfortunately the investigation has come to a close we haven't 0.99

00:27:43.680 found the perpetrators blah blah blah the problem for marguerite is that she really needs her name 1.00

00:27:49.100 cleared because everyone thinks she did it or was lying about it or something. And, you know, 1.00

00:27:55.680 her lovers won't take her back until she clears her name. And also like her high society friends 1.00

00:28:00.980 are like, we're not super interested in being friends with you until, you know, you can prove

00:28:06.680 that you're actually innocent. So she's like, I need to clear my name. And then she's like, okay,

00:28:13.920 well I'm gonna start talking to the press and she tells the press she tells a journalist like

00:28:20.740 the police are about to arrest some perpetrators it's more or less as I like said um you know

00:28:29.480 there are these robed men and like you know so she's gonna try and like show the world that

00:28:36.680 she's innocent and then the police are like no no that's not the truth sorry um and then she

00:28:44.080 starts freaking out because she's you know now like again headline news after is this where she 0.90

00:28:50.260 becomes known as the red widow like so in a few basically a few weeks after this okay yeah so then 1.00

00:28:58.660 she plants evidence on her valet and then that's discovered and then she's like oh it's actually

00:29:06.440 the cook's son who did it and i know i've known this all along it's just that i really i'm so

00:29:14.380 fond of my cook and i didn't want to make her feel bad that her son was the murderer so that's

00:29:19.040 why i haven't said this which again is absurd yeah yeah right that makes no sense and the

00:29:25.080 cook's son also has a really really strong alibi this is the sort of story though it's like you

00:29:29.800 recounting it to me and like you would have read this in the records you were reading it's like

00:29:33.000 this is absurd but if you've got your like anna delvey level person seeing it and they're like

00:29:38.700 they've got their like magnetic personality like a person could be like okay like where it's like

00:29:43.380 you need to be you have to have that charisma behind you to deliver this to even attempt

00:29:47.840 to make this work for you yeah without her here telling the story i'm just like well of course

00:29:53.820 that didn't work so finally she the the authorities are like we just can't handle you anymore right

00:30:02.240 and like there's this huge public outcry um because you know the police were arrested like

00:30:07.680 these two uh sort of working class men the valet and then the cook's son oh so they arrested so

00:30:12.660 she framed them arrested them and then they were like oh you're clearly not the killer and then

00:30:16.020 they okay yeah yeah so they finally um her lover basically is like i can't handle you anymore

00:30:22.740 and then arrest her and has her thrown into the parisian woman's prison yeah yeah so good time 0.95

00:30:30.640 and that's when she becomes known as the red widow and that's also when like all her secrets

00:30:35.060 come pouring out in the press um and people are like endlessly talking about her last encounter

00:30:41.000 with ford and how he died and you know i'm like reading these newspapers and it's just like i am

00:30:47.860 reading so much about the former president's anatomy like it's just a lot to be reading that

00:30:57.440 much about yeah yeah yeah well and that's the thing like the subtitle of your book like the

00:31:02.200 scandal that shook paris so this was like while this was happening it's just like this is it like

00:31:08.800 yeah yeah yeah it's like headline news it just it's the actually in a lot of newspapers it's like

00:31:14.860 the entire front page um because people and like you know you can imagine it's so exciting like

00:31:22.200 this is this woman you've kind of heard the gossip about her and then suddenly this case breaks open

00:31:28.220 and like everyone's spilling their secrets and like her relatives are like trashing her to the

00:31:35.660 press and her friends are trashing her to the press and it's just like so juicy and suddenly

00:31:41.700 you get to like know all these high society secrets so she she's in prison for a year um and

00:31:48.720 then she's eventually like put on trial for the murders and you know had she actually been 0.98

00:31:56.180 like found guilty and then like she could have been guillotined um guillotine still around

00:32:03.340 because this is like 19 oh something 1909 at this point and there's still like there's literally

00:32:10.020 still guillotines okay yeah yeah it was the parisian method it was sorry french method of

00:32:15.040 execution until they banned corporal uh capital punishment okay um yeah yeah yeah no they're like

00:32:21.120 i think there was like a guillotine that was like last used in the 1970s okay yeah wild yeah right

00:32:27.240 the like bloodiest method of yeah of execution so yeah that's that's basically sort of you know

00:32:36.000 the nutshell the the like short version yeah yeah no that's like

00:32:41.180 certainly enough that we can absolutely score her on our yes in the four categories but also i think

00:32:49.180 this is where it's like if that's that's the like nutshell version of it it's like

00:32:53.520 the book gets into um kind of there's so many questions that i want to ask but of course it's

00:33:01.400 like that's what the book is for yeah there's so many there's so much stuff that you know i had to

00:33:06.940 put in the book couldn't put in here gossip more scandal yeah and now we're just gonna take a break

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00:36:15.740 So, sorry, I'm just bringing up my little document

00:36:19.480 to remind myself of what all the categories are,

00:36:21.820 because I'm just going to leave this to you.

00:36:23.380 Yeah, I love it.

00:36:24.500 As an expert. 1.00

00:36:24.820 it okay so we're gonna score her on our scandalicious scale the fredigan memorial 0.72

00:36:29.040 scandalous scale so the first category i explained this to you before just so you were just like what

00:36:32.860 are you talking about so it's four categories each is like from one till 10 um 10 being the

00:36:39.300 highest and so the first one is scandalousness now i know that this is gonna probably be her

00:36:44.820 highest scoring category yeah but so it's not just like what um what a person did but also like the

00:36:53.240 effect that like how people saw her at the time was she seen as a scandalous you know there's

00:36:59.140 some like people where it's like oh this person had an affair or whatever but it's like yeah but

00:37:02.040 everyone was having affairs so actually that wasn't really scandalous at the time but um yeah

00:37:06.680 so on a scale of zero to ten i feel she's definitely a 10 i mean i think i think she

00:37:14.080 kind of breaks the scale yeah um what i love in particular about her is she's always trying to

00:37:18.820 avoid a scandal and like in doing that she just then creates a bigger scandal like you know in 0.98

00:37:26.000 her early 20s she could have divorced her husband she's like that's too scandalous and so if she 1.00

00:37:32.340 had divorced her husband and like remarried we probably would have never heard of her exactly 0.93

00:37:36.080 but like because she didn't want to divorce her husband to vote that scandal she winds up with

00:37:39.500 the president and then like this whole he dies yeah yeah situation and then like you said with

00:37:45.340 the with the weird murder thing she's like i need to clear my name so i'm just gonna like frame some

00:37:50.820 people give some interviews which leads to her right yeah yes and so even though like you were

00:37:56.820 saying like people at the time it's like it was common to have a mistress it was common to be

00:38:00.920 having these sort of um situations but like you didn't talk about it and so the fact that she

00:38:06.660 brought this all out in the open i know it's a situation where i feel like a 10 could not be

00:38:12.100 more appropriate I I'm higher score yes I think she is like the most scandalous woman of her day

00:38:19.440 and that's like saying something in kind of you know yeah like early 20th century Paris yeah yeah 0.81

00:38:25.940 no exactly because when you're talking about like you know people having the affairs or whatever

00:38:29.020 I'm like yeah like I don't know whatever Moulin Rouge the movie or whatever it's just the Gilded

00:38:34.600 Age it's just like people were out there just like doing like it was a wild time and the fact

00:38:38.920 that she was more wild than anyone okay the next category is scheminess and this is not just like

00:38:46.680 did this person have a crafty mind and come up with schemes but like were those good schemes

00:38:51.680 did the schemes did did that help them I would say some of her schemes did yes I think this is

00:39:01.500 like she's very crafty but I think the schemes some of her bigger schemes at least do not work

00:39:06.780 out so well so i feel like this is like a five because like sheer craftiness like 10 but then

00:39:13.200 also like you gotta take a lot off for the the fact that they really backfire on her yeah yeah

00:39:21.100 just she's like she's there like she's quick like whatever happened with like the murder situation

00:39:26.120 if someone did break in or whatever the fact that she's just like okay how can i stage this

00:39:31.100 it's like that's scheming but then like your story was bad like it's too many details it's

00:39:37.300 too many weird details like yeah so i think that tracks for me so five for scheminess so and then

00:39:45.480 the next one is significance which is also like it's really like case by case basis but it's like

00:39:50.640 she was significant at the time certainly um her legacy i would say i'm sure another scandal came

00:39:59.720 a year later and everyone in Paris is like now we're obsessed with that so it's not like yes

00:40:03.580 a long lasting legacy necessarily but she was significant at the time so like how would you

00:40:08.780 balance that so I think she was like really kind of two major like areas of significance one is

00:40:15.680 she's like super significant at the time and then actually um folks death really does change the

00:40:23.060 course of french history that's okay so yeah if she was the one who was like

00:40:27.860 who was stimulating the president at the time that he died of effectively a heart attack

00:40:35.060 then she is personally responsible to some level for like what happened next yeah so yeah yeah

00:40:43.020 and it's um at the time francis uh like embroiled in what's called the dreyfus affair which is this

00:40:50.080 espionage scandal where there's um a jewish army captain who is falsely accused um of espionage

00:40:58.720 he didn't do it and it just whips up all this anti-semitism and um false death essentially

00:41:06.880 allows like kind of france to move on from this and it's what um it's like basically you know

00:41:16.120 Dreyfus is brought back to France from his horrible island prison, is put on trial and

00:41:22.440 pardoned. And that really might not have happened if not for her intervention.

00:41:29.640 We're getting it to the score, but is there a school of thought that she was some sort of

00:41:36.320 paid agent and killed him on purpose? So there were people at the time who thought that,

00:41:43.860 particularly folks on the far right sort of anti-semitic nationalists and were like she was

00:41:50.620 you know being like paid by the jews problem with that is that she herself is super anti-semitic

00:41:57.980 and you know basically would not have wanted the thing that happened so i mean there's no

00:42:07.620 evidence for it i don't think she would is like that's a kind of the idea that she was like 0.89

00:42:12.980 you know uh paid to do this is totally bonkers um it's also would was just like not what she

00:42:20.620 wanted yeah no i think it was in her best interest to continue being the mistress of the president 0.96

00:42:25.080 right yes yes okay yes okay but so accidentally she has the significance yes which is significance

00:42:33.420 nonetheless yes so where would you score that on a zero to ten i feel like that's a seven okay

00:42:39.920 because of the effect on history but also her significance at the time yeah based on all these

00:42:47.260 newspaper articles and everything you were saying like and also i would imagine that the ripple

00:42:52.140 effect of these newspaper articles that are like she did all this so suddenly like the effect of

00:42:56.380 like wait you have one of her painting the paintings you but it's just like wait these

00:42:59.420 are who the lovers were like and how that would affect those people's careers and their lives

00:43:03.840 mm-hmm yeah there's so many people who are embarrassed because of you know they were like

00:43:10.340 friends with her or one of her like lovers or something yeah and then yeah it actually like

00:43:16.560 ends up sort of making the whole like French elite look really bad yeah yeah yeah so certainly

00:43:23.720 significant and then the fourth category I call it the sexism bonus so it's basically

00:43:29.600 if you think about somebody who could have done a lot of stuff but just wasn't able to because of

00:43:34.660 like the patriarchy so this is a place where someone can get points where like maybe someone

00:43:38.560 who didn't have a high significance score but it's like but you know they really could have

00:43:43.500 had not the patriarchy so everyone automatically gets a five because the patriarchy but how much

00:43:48.680 do you think sexism held her back from achieving her goals it's such a great question and it's a

00:43:54.680 have questioned in her case because i think had she lived today i think she would have had

00:44:00.320 professional opportunities that she did not have at the time which she may she might have made use 1.00

00:44:05.580 of instead of engaging in sex work i also think that like she probably would have just gotten 1.00

00:44:12.400 divorced because divorce is not super scandalous yeah if she was just like my husband is kind of 1.00

00:44:16.500 useless moving on right but the fact that she couldn't do that kind of led to this like

00:44:20.880 right string of weird things yes but i think there's sort of like two things that count 1.00

00:44:27.200 against her so one thing i think that comes against her is she was like no feminist heroine

00:44:34.080 um i think she really like accepted a lot of the patriarchal norms of her day and was just like

00:44:39.700 i'm just gonna make use of them like they benefit me and that's like very mediated by like whiteness

00:44:45.740 and her sort of prestige and position in high society and the fact that she's like can appeal 1.00

00:44:52.560 to men in this very like sort of you know she can sort of play on their sexual fantasies

00:44:58.600 the other thing that I think is like really interesting is there were times when the public

00:45:04.340 really came to love her like during her trial and I think that you know had she been alive today

00:45:12.960 I think that sort of women in the public, I often experience tremendous amounts of abuse, but, you know, like on social media.

00:45:23.740 And I think there's this way in which, like, she was like, became the sort of national heroine.

00:45:30.700 again i think that's like very mediated by the fact that she's rich and white and you know like

00:45:39.040 seductive and sort of placed all these fantasies but i think like there are certain ways in which

00:45:45.440 she was treated better um than she might have been treated today which is super depressing

00:45:50.860 yeah no absolutely but that's really interesting that people so the public came to see her as a

00:45:57.080 heroin just because like the way that i see these people because she was so scandalous like they're

00:46:02.460 just like this is a great story we're the we're the people of france and we love it i think so

00:46:06.900 i think they um i think the she she does very well at the trial like she's super funny she's

00:46:12.580 really smart yeah she gets the better of the the like you know like all the lawyers and the judge 0.52

00:46:19.960 um and i think that there's also a lot of like sympathy for her because she's you know imprisoned

00:46:26.960 for a year it's not clear that she actually committed the crime um but there's also like

00:46:32.700 at the time literally people make this argument that like well she's pretty so you know we should

00:46:39.900 find her innocent yeah no that's that's very fascinating to me because i've just just in my

00:46:45.760 research for this podcast like there's so often where it's like people whatever if a woman is

00:46:50.620 accused of something they're just like oh she's terrible she's obviously terrible but but the

00:46:55.200 people i don't know that's interesting because sometimes it's like oh we're sympathetic because

00:46:58.680 she was abused and she like killed her abusive husband like sometimes i've seen that yeah but

00:47:03.200 this is more just like she's just got such like charm like yeah she's cool she's pretty yeah

00:47:08.640 she's rich we super seductive right yeah so that i like i've just been sort of like was so struck

00:47:16.900 by that that like there's a sort of adulation of her that i think is very hard for us to

00:47:25.020 understand because we just assumed she would have been vilified yeah um yeah but people are like no

00:47:30.700 like you know she's she's like an icon i love that for her right what a weird twist yeah it's

00:47:40.960 interesting like okay so i usually say like everyone gets five because just like the patriarchy

00:47:45.560 but but the fact that she sort of like benefited from it it's like i don't know if she even is a

00:47:50.100 five i don't know five might be too much i don't know it's it's really hard like i think there are

00:47:56.680 ways in which her life would have like overall turned out better if she was living now but i

00:48:01.260 also think she kind of does okay for her no she kind of like leaned into it and found a way to

00:48:08.040 work for her so like you can absolutely choose a number lower than five like whatever you think

00:48:12.460 it's appropriate let's do let's say like four okay because it's there but she and there's been

00:48:20.720 other people i've talked about on the podcast before too who are just like you know what it's

00:48:24.180 like the picture kind of didn't get in the way if there's something it's like well her father

00:48:28.900 supported her and then like her husband whatever it's just like it that kind of she was okay

00:48:33.600 because there are all these powerful men yeah in her corner so let me just add this up um so 17

00:48:39.400 the 26 okay it's 26 out of 40 which let me just take a look i keep a list of like who gets what's

00:48:47.620 i'm gonna see if there's anyone like notable who you might have heard of who else is here's here's

00:48:53.140 what i'll say another person who gets a 26 um is a heroine of this podcast and also an accused

00:48:59.300 murderer who is francis howard amazing yeah so i think and i think this story is similar in some

00:49:07.740 ways of just sort of like a very seductive woman who gets sort of caught up in this like murder

00:49:12.060 plot where it's just like did she do it but there's enough doubt about her it's like the fact

00:49:18.180 that you think that she could have sort of what her reputation is but then like utter like such

00:49:23.800 a scandal in her era and then like whatever forgotten yeah yes after that yeah i love that

00:49:31.960 i love that she's like in with like similar women no that's that's perfect and that's where it's like

00:49:37.060 the four categories do try to tie like it's rare that somebody scores high in all four

00:49:42.400 and those tend to be more people who are maybe a bit better known because they're especially

00:49:47.380 high in significance so your book the red widow the scandal that shook paris and the woman behind

00:49:53.960 it all can you just um i'm gonna put a picture of the cover and stuff on instagram but like

00:49:59.820 at the top what's this a picture of these people who's that um that's a picture from

00:50:06.300 the um the trial although now in the like final cover that picture has been taken out so it's

00:50:12.980 just her in red yeah which I really love I think it's like a super beautiful cover yeah so it's

00:50:19.980 like a picture of her just kind of like posing glamorously um so okay so on the advanced reader

00:50:26.220 copy there's a picture of just kind of like some people 40 times people just kind of sitting there

00:50:30.840 at the trial like they're all watching yeah i'm trying to let me um find my copy so the in the 0.67

00:50:40.160 advanced reader copy the there's a woman um who's just to the right of the guards and that's her

00:50:46.320 okay i was wondering yeah because it's a whole bunch of men and then it's a woman okay yeah

00:50:50.060 and then her lawyer is below um yeah i like how just because i'm holding up the book i like it

00:50:58.300 just it caught my eye the phrase a real life femme fatale and it's like yes this is a story

00:51:03.520 I could absolutely see being turned into like a 1940s film noir you know of like a woman who's

00:51:10.500 just like oh she's so charismatic and seductive and the next thing you know you're murdering her 0.98

00:51:14.860 husband for her yes it's amazing I mean I think she would have been like an amazing sort of

00:51:22.620 um film noir right like heroin anti-heroine um yes yeah her life is very cinematic in certain

00:51:31.740 respects definitely and so I think what a gift to you as a biographer that it's got this narrative

00:51:37.200 arc to it like I could see if like all that she was known for was just the death of the president

00:51:42.920 it'd be like wow what a story but it's like but then but then yeah yeah I mean I usually like

00:51:51.400 other things i've written as a historian do not have this narrative arc um but there's so many

00:51:56.800 twists and turns in her life i could only get to like scratch the surface in this podcast

00:52:02.560 you know their costumes there's like weird coincidences um there's corrupt officials

00:52:10.560 there's like the whole all of it um and i think that made it like much easier to write in a way

00:52:18.580 but also like more fun to write because you're like plot twist yeah no and that's what i love

00:52:24.540 the stories i choose for this podcast as well are just like when i'm i find a possibility like for

00:52:30.660 her for instance if i just like look at the wikipedia page just to be like let's just see

00:52:34.040 an overview and when you see something it's called like the affair of the whatever i'm like okay this

00:52:37.860 is gonna be a saga yep yep she's she's a whole thing yeah no there's like her things i forget

00:52:44.560 it's you know like early life like marriage and then it's like the french president then it's like

00:52:48.980 the affair what's it called it's just the steinheil affair steinheil affair i think that's how it's

00:52:54.300 pronounced embarrassingly i don't actually know how i've asked french friends and i'm like we

00:52:58.660 don't know how it would be pronounced um it's an unusual last name for a french person it is so

00:53:04.240 her husband's family is from albass originally which is like eastern france so has a lot of

00:53:10.200 like german influences so i think that's where it came from yeah yeah yeah okay right because

00:53:15.140 that's her married last name yeah anyway okay thank you so much so do you want to like like

00:53:21.100 this whole episode has just been like a pitch for like why everybody needs to read your book

00:53:24.800 but like do you have any other things you want to share about the book and why everybody should

00:53:27.640 read your book you know like i will just say it was super fun to write she's a wild woman i love

00:53:35.840 that she breaks all the rules in the book and gets away with it she comes from an absolutely 0.97

00:53:41.280 bananas family who they also were like let's have affairs to get back at our other family members

00:53:48.320 you know that seems to be like some sort of family pattern yeah there's like poison blackmail funny

00:53:54.260 costumes outrageous lies um you know like sort of people coming in and like dramatically shifting

00:54:04.280 the plot sudden revelations and so I really hope people enjoy it and that's the sort of thing where

00:54:11.380 like you know sometimes you hear about people who are like I don't really like history it's like

00:54:16.560 it's just stories and like great stories like this one yeah yeah I mean I look I totally get it

00:54:24.620 the book is not going to be for everyone but I like I think this is if you sort of liked you

00:54:31.900 know bridgerton but like wanted there to be murder and everyone to be terrible and there not to be

00:54:36.320 any happy endings or alternatively liked you know inventing anna and we're like but i want it set in

00:54:43.140 olden times and there to be murder like this is the book do you remember um if you've watched

00:54:48.800 downton abbey if you wish that downton abbey had gone harder on the like lady mary has sex with the

00:54:55.340 turkish guy and then he dies if you wish that the show had just become like lady mary yes and fatale

00:55:00.880 instead of like everyone hushed it up and then they all moved on yes if like if lady mary then

00:55:07.160 went really bad after that yes lady mary breaking bad exactly yes no and it's also like history that

00:55:14.900 reads like a novel like what's it called like popular history so it's not just like you know

00:55:19.320 really esoteric with like whatever you know footnotes and it's just like no here's a story

00:55:24.160 and like yeah and you tell it very like like a novel yeah i love that i mean the other thing is

00:55:29.600 i think it's like also a work of true crime um there are lots of works of true crime i love

00:55:35.080 but like the true crime you know is been like rightfully critiqued as a somewhat problematic

00:55:39.880 genre because it often relies on the idea that the police are telling the truth and we know that

00:55:45.520 that's not true and i think this is a really interesting example where like the police are

00:55:50.820 clearly lying and you can sort of see like that in her day the function of the police will not

00:55:58.420 necessarily solve crimes but to shore up the like a social hierarchy and protect elites and like

00:56:04.780 punish poor people yeah so yeah i know like you've said so many things already they're just like oh

00:56:10.640 it connects so much to like what's going on nowadays but it totally does so yeah yeah yeah

00:56:15.980 well thank you so much for coming on this podcast thank you this has been such a pleasure

00:56:21.520 so again the book that we're talking about here is the red widow the scandal that shook

00:56:27.900 Paris and the Woman Behind It All by Sarah Horowitz. You can learn more about the book,

00:56:33.300 including find some extras and learn more about Sarah herself at sarahehorowitz.com. I'll put the

00:56:39.320 link to that in the show notes as well. If you want to buy a copy of it, there's lots of links

00:56:43.480 all over her website. If you buy a copy of the book, if you click through the link in these

00:56:48.000 show notes to bookshop.org, then a little bit of money goes to support me and the Vulgar History

00:56:52.280 podcast. Speaking of such things, so we have ads on the show now you might have noticed at the

00:56:59.640 beginning at the end. And then in the middle, there's a little ad break. And that is a new

00:57:05.380 thing we're doing because this podcast is taking the big time. And the more income I can make from

00:57:10.820 this show, the more episodes of the show I'll be able to do. So I hope we can all get used to this

00:57:16.180 change pretty quickly. If you prefer an ad free experience, that's part of what you get when you

00:57:21.140 join my patreon which you can join at patreon.com slash ann foster writer so when you join there you

00:57:27.060 get early access to episodes of vulgar history as well as always ad-free experience there on the

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00:57:39.660 a month you get the ad-free experience and also you can help vote in polls and if you pledge at

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00:58:01.680 lowest score we've ever given any film on that um side podcast also uh for the five dollars and up 0.94

00:58:09.160 supporters on patreon you get every month or so I do an episode of so this asshole

00:58:13.460 most recently i did louis the 14th coming up in like a week or two christopher columbus so

00:58:21.160 uh yeah stay tuned for that and then also um you can keep up with me in the podcast at

00:58:27.900 on instagram at vulgar history pod on twitter at vulgar history where apparently i just celebrated

00:58:33.260 three years on twitter with that twitter handle which means about three years ago

00:58:37.500 in September of 2019, I decided to do a podcast. And one of the first things I did was reserve

00:58:43.880 that Twitter account. So happy anniversary to me and Twitter. And if you want to get in touch with

00:58:50.040 me, you can do that at vulgarhistorypod at gmail.com. Or you can also there's a link on the

00:58:55.980 website vulgarhistory.com where you can get in touch. I'm always open to ideas of people who

00:59:04.000 you think would be good episodes of this podcast and i feel like i'm forgetting to say something

00:59:09.360 but maybe oh yes vulgarhistory.store so if you go to our if you want to get some merch

00:59:14.200 you know holidays coming up etc vulgarhistory.store you can use code tits out for free u.s

00:59:20.780 shipping or tits out 10 for 10 off of all the stuff there including most recently added

00:59:26.080 empress cc uh horse girl energy design is available there on various products and so yeah

00:59:34.740 i will talk to you all next time here we are in the fall like how's it september god knows but

00:59:42.400 anyway i'm glad we're all here for the ride these episodes just keep going i honestly had thought i

00:59:46.800 would be finished the season by now but all the episodes keep being you know two three or five

00:59:51.580 parters and I'm happy to keep doing it. So anyway, keep your pants on, keep your tits out, 0.99

00:59:57.020 and I'll talk to you all next time. 0.99

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Vulgar History - September 21, 2022

Author Interview： Sarah Horowitz (Red Widow： The Scandal That Shook Paris and the Woman Behind It)

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