00:07:57.260i think we get most of our dialogue from a guy named gregory of tor he's kind of a fun source
00:08:06.780because he really hates women in power but he's brunhild's ally and he's really embarrassed that
00:08:11.920brunhild helped to get him his job as bishop so he actually like never mentions that she gets him
00:08:16.520his job and we only find this out by a mention from one of his friends and you go oh okay
00:08:21.200but he really goes after Fredegun though she basically enrages him and he is very uh we could
00:08:28.440say a very anti-Fredegun source but he is also an eyewitness so particularly for things like
00:08:34.980weather events or what happened in what order we can definitely count on him and he actually
00:08:39.520goes on trial for slandering Fredegun and you know has his life hanging in the balance and has
00:08:46.440to pull in some friends and flatter her. So it is pretty interesting that he's actually involved in
00:08:52.120it. He has this friend named Fortunatus, who's a court poet who makes his living writing poems for
00:08:58.900rich people. So he's friends with basically anyone who's anyone in the Frankish kingdoms on both
00:09:05.100sides. But he writes poems for both Brunhild and for Fredegann. And what's really interesting is
00:09:10.000obviously they're biased, but you get a sense of how these women want to be seen. And one thing I
00:09:15.320found really interesting was even well before Fredegun was regent, the poem he writes about
00:09:21.420her, it talks about her brains, just how smart she is. And that's not really typical for the
00:09:26.340time period. It's just, she's shrewd. She's great at making decisions. And it also says that she
00:09:31.620shares in the rule with the king. It's really interesting that publicly they're going out
00:09:36.900saying the king needs this woman to help him rule. And that's okay. Everyone's all right with0.95
00:09:41.700that so I found that a little surprising and interesting and then there are some oh go ahead
00:09:47.440no no you go ahead there are some letters written by Brunhild and her son that are a lot of fun like
00:09:55.460there's one of these where the Byzantine emperor sends a message to Brunhild's son and she writes
00:09:59.560back really sternly and she basically slaps him down and says I'm the one you need to be dealing
00:10:05.140with and he does deal with her from then on so it is great to get these little glimpses of their
00:10:11.680personalities. And then there's a lot of more boring and bureaucratic things like church records
00:10:16.140and church councils and historical chronicles. But those would probably be my favorite.
00:10:23.340I'm so excited just thinking that you got to read an actual letter Brunhilde wrote. That's
00:10:27.380so exciting. Yeah. She's very imperious and she refers to herself in the royal we.
00:10:32.980So we have counseled war or we have decided this or that. It's kind of fun.
00:10:38.560so I was just gonna ask before um you mentioned in the Gregory of Tours that he talked about
00:10:44.820weather events and things so the weather was wild right yes like there it was just like what like
00:10:53.940describe the like the weather of the like the story it's just like there's all these people
00:10:58.900making you know assassination attempts and like wars and whatever but it's like and also guess
00:11:02.800what? It's like raining for like 10 years or something. Like what was going on? Yeah. Well,
00:11:08.540we have, they're both born right after this horrific climate change and it's two degrees,
00:11:15.760except in our case, we're worried about it becoming two degrees warmer. In their case,
00:11:19.280it went two degrees colder and that disrupts everything. So we have 18 months of darkness,
00:11:25.240there's snow in the summer. This is the entire world, right? And then it seems like it takes
00:11:31.400a while for things to get back up to speed and then there's another volcanic eruption and we
00:11:36.160have more famine and on top of that we have bubonic plague and then it seems like the world
00:11:42.980rebounds by just there's a lot of rain there's just a ton of rain it's a really wet damp period
00:11:49.540and you can imagine that doesn't bode well for everyone's health as in there's just constant
00:11:55.380flooding everybody's getting dysentery from the flood water there's you know just cold and damp
00:12:01.140a lot of mold it's it's really awful mud mud everywhere right yeah so just as that is like the
00:12:09.400the backdrop for everything that's happening like it's just like it feels like a movie honestly
00:12:15.100it's just like everything simultaneous like it's giving me a game of thrones right where it's just
00:12:20.020like well it's been winter for 20 years and everyone's kind of losing their mind yeah so
00:12:27.240just that dysentery you mentioned so that was just like in going through like just reading the book
00:12:33.020um it's just like and then and then this child died of dysentery and then she like managed to
00:12:38.080get pregnant again and then that child died of dysentery and it's just like oh my god it just
00:12:42.060it's like unrelenting like the the debt it seemed to be a lot of children dying
00:12:46.920yes and I think unrelenting is a great adjective for it it's just one thing after another I don't
00:12:55.980know how people managed to endure. It's quite overwhelming. And the thing that's so interesting
00:13:03.120is that there was this knowledge that you should really boil water and you should only drink clean
00:13:08.700water. And there were some aqueducts, Roman aqueducts that were still functioning. So there
00:13:14.620was this knowledge, but somehow it wasn't always translating into practice. There was just so much
00:13:19.160chaos in terms of being able to repair infrastructure that they couldn't keep up.
00:13:25.560So that's the other frustrating thing of if people weren't completely ignorant as to why this was happening, but they just couldn't stop it from happening. And I think that's even more frustrating must be to live through.
00:13:35.320well yeah if you're just like constantly dealing with like climate-based disasters it's like yeah
00:13:41.540there's not time to really do the like next level city building structuring type stuff there's a part
00:13:48.200now I'm just like I read this like a bit ago but what was this there's part of it and I think it
00:13:53.640was Brunhild or no maybe it's Fred again there was a part where like it was something about there
00:13:59.640was a child was sick and they were like yeah we should like we should all separate everybody and
00:14:04.260they're like, no, let's all go in church altogether and stay awake for like 72 hours
00:14:07.780altogether. What was that? Can you tell that? That's Keith Guntram who, and it's to deal with
00:14:12.480the plague and he decides, so some people are saying having basically rudimentary travel
00:14:18.920restrictions, like we really shouldn't travel. We should stay apart. And they're understanding
00:14:22.780that it's how it spreads. So even Gregory of Tor, who's very superstitious, sort of credulous man
00:14:29.280who believes that like you know stars and comets are comets are causing people to drop dead but he
00:14:35.460understands oh a ship comes into port somebody on the ship has the plague the next thing you know
00:14:40.000the people who did business with that man have the plague and then his family has the plague and then
00:14:45.500their neighbors have the plague so they were understanding how it spread and a lot of people
00:14:49.580are saying we should not have fares we should not get together but king guntram's like i need a win
00:14:56.040so I'm going to make everybody come together for several days and we're all going to be packed in
00:15:01.820and we're just going to pray and have these processions and all these people drop dead
00:15:06.740but not seeing the connection and then there's this great cure where they decide that
00:15:13.320some woman takes a bit of thread or maybe it's embroidery from his cape and puts it
00:15:19.460in some water and has her child drink it and that cures him so people are starting to think
00:15:25.700that if they can just get pieces of royal cloaks and soak them in water that that will cure the
00:15:32.340plague so scary it's so like this story especially but i guess lately anytime i'm reading about
00:15:42.180somebody living through any sort of pandemic i'm just like i relate but it's so yeah because i
00:15:48.360think there's this really and i think this comes across really well in your book um there's a sense
00:15:53.220like you sort of spoke to it that people think like oh people in those like early medieval period1.00
00:15:57.620like well they were just a bunch of dum-dums like they didn't know what they were doing like they0.99
00:16:01.880were just kind of like in this you know the dark ages sort of thing where it's like no like even0.99
00:16:06.880if they didn't know like germ theory like they could figure out like a ship comes and then that's
00:16:11.300where the plague comes from like they were smart I liked reading about how they were making decisions0.96
00:16:16.480that are similar to decisions people would be making today like they're not just like fools0.95
00:16:21.220who are just like everything's witchcraft or whatever it's like they're like I don't know
00:16:27.580did you find like relatable things that people were doing when you were researching it like
00:16:32.820decisions that surprised you that felt like modern yeah I mean I think even Fredegund
00:16:38.380has this one decision where she wants to get rid of one of her her stepson her only surviving
00:16:43.200stepson who's in the way between her her sons and and the throne and so she sends him to an area
00:16:49.520that's having an outbreak comes up with an excuse because she clearly there's some understanding as
00:16:54.440you say maybe not of germ theory but like this area more people are dying I'm going to send him
00:16:59.940here in the hopes that that he will die which is diabolical but also seems like something somebody
00:17:07.260could pull off today right and I think even just some of the decisions that both queens make
00:17:13.900surrounding pregnancy, early childhood of their children, even the degree of their grief seems
00:17:22.680really modern. When you hear of Fredegund being just devastated and she's sobbing publicly,
00:17:31.280particularly given what we know of her sort of imperious temperament, the fact that she's just
00:17:36.680that broken and fortunatus, this court poet has to make these poems to say, please stop crying and
00:17:42.420there's going to be another son and you're going to get to snuggle him. And the fact that they
00:17:45.440would use a word about like, talk about snuggling and cuddling children, even if it's a stretch,
00:17:51.940it still gives you a sense of how close people were or expected to be to their children and how
00:17:59.600devastated they were when they died so much more frequently than what we have to endure.
00:18:05.100And that felt very modern too. Yeah. I think there's sort of this,
00:18:10.340there's a lot of there was so much more child death in history than there is now for various
00:18:16.760reasons so I think there's sort of like a flippancy that not just historians but just like people who
00:18:21.520read it but they're like oh yeah everyone had 12 children because they knew like five of them would
00:18:24.300die and whatever it's like oh another child died like on we go but it's like no like it was it of
00:18:28.680course people were upset when their children died like it's not just like well there goes another
00:18:33.200one I guess we'll just have another baby yeah and I'm even thinking of things like postpartum
00:18:38.020depression, that it seems pretty clear based on the evidence that Fredigan has a really bad
00:18:42.800bout of that. And they describe it, even though they don't use the sort of terms that we would.
00:18:49.100But there are things like that, that seem really moderate. I also think there's this
00:18:53.960great interlude where we get to this rebellion in a convent, but there's that description of both
00:19:02.000surgery, where men are having surgery on their testicles based on some procedure they saw done0.74
00:19:08.740in Byzantium. So you're saying, okay, so people are able to transport medical knowledge across
00:19:15.000these distances and copy. And at least in this case, this person survives. We don't know how
00:19:19.580many people survive, but we have at least a few people where it's successful. So they're
00:19:22.980performing some sort of basic rudimentary successful surgery. But also there are a lot
00:19:27.300of cases of people who are biologically sexed as male, but are living as women. There's the graves0.55
00:19:34.900that have been found. There's this one particular case of this person who was born a man, but lives
00:19:42.400as a woman in a convent. And so that's also, I think their sense of gender surprised me often,
00:19:50.740that it was a little more fluid than we might expect, or we typically think it was black or
00:19:56.100white and that they did have some gray area as well yeah it was um not an era that I've ever
00:20:03.900read about before this like I've read about you know like the Romans and I've read about
00:20:08.080I don't know like my historical knowledge until I read your book was kind of like
00:20:11.620Romans Egyptians and it jumps forward to like the renaissance like what happened in Europe in the
00:20:18.160middle and I guess it's is it because there's just less sources that people know not as much
00:20:23.080about this time period? Or was it just because they were wiped out? And then, well, I guess I
00:20:28.520know like Charlemagne came in and then like, you know, about that, but the stuff that happened
00:20:32.120before did they, was it suppressed? I think it's twofold. So there's been this estimate that of
00:20:39.400the sources that survive, there are probably less than 1% of what was produced, but because so little1.00
00:20:45.640survived, it became really easy for the next dynasty to say, these people were idiots. They1.00
00:20:50.780didn't produce a lot of information and look how smart we are in comparison to them. So there was
00:20:55.260a bit of a public relations campaign on the part of Charlemagne and his dynasty. But also the
00:21:00.660Merovingians made a bad decision, they didn't know it at the time, to use papyrus for a lot of their
00:21:07.440records. And papyrus can survive for, you know, thousands and thousands of years in the dry
00:21:13.140climate of Egypt. But once you get it into the damp and the cold of Europe, it does not last nearly as
00:21:20.000long. So a lot of what has survived just happened to be on parchment. And there was a shortage,
00:21:25.700a papyrus shortage. And there were these issues with trade. So people switched to parchment. And
00:21:30.660so it just happened that everybody who wrote on parchment, those records survived and all the
00:21:36.000records that have been written on papyrus didn't. And that's just kind of the luck of the draw. So
00:21:40.540some of that accounts for the lack of sources. And then also there was a lot of purposeful
00:21:44.800suppression as well which leads me to something that I still find it very I wouldn't say enraging
00:21:52.440but just like so annoying which is that after the death of both women that it was kind of like she
00:21:58.260was the king's mother at the end like the fact that it's Fredigan's tomb right that's just like
00:22:02.940wife mother and it's like oh my god she did so much like it was her like immediately like upon
00:22:10.880the death of both women like what they did was kind of hidden away like sort of like we don't0.84
00:22:16.140we kind of don't want people to know that like women did stuff so let's just like not let anyone
00:22:21.580know what happened absolutely and you know something that really surprised me is i assume
00:22:28.700that brunhild and fredigan were exceptions to the rule and i was really surprised to find out that
00:22:33.560there were actually quite a few female political leaders in the sixth century so if your listeners
00:22:38.260are interested, we have a queen in Lombard, Italy. There's a regent, Sophia, for the Byzantine Empire.
00:22:46.680Japan's being ruled by an empress, Suiko. There's a Mayan queen, I think her name's Yal-Iknol.
00:22:54.500And so we have all these women that happen to be ruling at the same time. And then we also have
00:22:59.640women that are powerful abbesses and business owners and women who are entangled in political
00:23:05.920plots, and we have nuns in armed rebellions. So given how few sources survive, I think we only
00:23:12.220know the half of it. But it's really surprising that there were so many women in such a chaotic0.82
00:23:17.960era that were thriving, not just surviving and getting by, but actually thriving and ruling.
00:23:24.720And then that sort of stuff is so interesting to me, too, because there's such a sort of like,
00:23:31.200i don't know the common way that history is taught in general it's kind of like you know
00:23:38.220women weren't able to do anything and then suddenly like the 1960s birth control pill
00:23:42.880women could have jobs now where it's like no it's not been like an upward trajectory and like women
00:23:47.460get more and more rights it's like there were places like this where that was not so much of
00:23:52.080an issue and then that was suppressed and then this other place like it's i love reading with
00:23:57.920these little pockets of time to learn that like it's not history is not a straight line of just0.98
00:24:03.420like things are just always getting better which is so false but especially in terms of women's
00:24:09.340rights that's so fascinating I've just been reading about a woman in um 10th century Kashmir0.96
00:24:15.740and how she was like anyway which was really interesting like she ruled it was chaotic there1.00
00:24:22.920and then she came in with like very ruthless successful style and then she like brought
00:24:28.960stability for 40 years to this region fascinating wow yeah no I know so it's like it's not new0.91
00:24:35.800the idea of like women could be leaders but you just don't hear about it yeah yeah I wanted to0.84
00:24:42.800ask you just one final question which is what influence do you think the Fredigan and Brunhild
00:24:52.120had on history or just like, well, I guess more on a micro level, like the development of Western
00:24:59.460Europe? Like what do you think their era, what's the significance of it? So I think there probably
00:25:08.000are three key ways that they influence Western Europe. So the first and probably the most obvious
00:25:16.580is one provides the air and the other the land that shapes Europe for the next few centuries.
00:25:20.620So Fredagon is the one through who, you know, her blood flows through all the subsequent Merovingian kings. And I say that just because there were some questions about her son's legitimacy. These might have been the usual slurs, but because we have no DNA, we can't prove paternity. So she's the only one we can really be certain of.
00:25:40.000and anyone who follows is her descendant and there are even people alive today they call
00:25:48.540themselves the order of the Merovingian dynasty who claim to be descended from Fredegund so they
00:25:52.720trace their lineage back through a woman named Bertha Broadfoot who is Charlemagne's mother
00:25:57.460who may have been part of the Merovingian royal family kind of tangentially so there is that sort
00:26:04.900of intriguing bit that if it's not for Fredegund we don't have the rest of the dynasty and then
00:26:11.720obviously Brunhild and Fredegund to an extent provide the land so when Fredegund's son Clothar
00:26:17.780II deposes her he's getting a ready-made empire he's moving in she's already united the bulk of
00:26:23.480Western Europe you know for him we know that they have an outside influence on future queens so
00:26:31.820there are women who try to follow in their footsteps or take lessons from them and we know
00:26:36.400are aware of their example so there's women who try to become regents themselves or they adopt
00:26:41.700some of their survival tactics and there's even a great case this queen adelaide of morienne who
00:26:47.860has a matching sarcophagus made like her so her and fredigan have matching or matchy matchy even
00:26:54.640after death. So we know that a lot of royal French women read their stories, are aware of
00:27:03.140their legacy, and we can assume there's some influence there. But I think the most important
00:27:08.400is that the backlash to their reigns reverberates, and it really impacts Europe for centuries.
00:27:15.420I would argue that it sets the world back in a lot of ways. Both of these women seem to foresee
00:27:22.200the wisdom of there being a single heir model they're both trying to consolidate it behind a0.73
00:27:28.340single male heir as opposed to keep dividing it up as we know that that probably would have worked
00:27:34.800out a little bit better and prevented you know some wars if that had worked but we also know
00:27:41.900that like when Brunhild is betrayed by the people who work for her and Clothar II Fredegund's son
00:27:49.300moves in he basically dooms the whole dynasty because he makes has to make some concessions
00:27:53.920so in order to get what he wants and part of that is he limits the king's power and he agrees to
00:28:00.320split the frankish empires into three so it basically does away with the dream of like a
00:28:05.600unified empire like rome and it leads to the fragmented nation states that we see then for the
00:28:11.840next you know thousand years so there's that there's kind of two models of government where
00:28:17.380we could have this sort of Roman empire with these sort of semi-autonomous provinces, or we could have
00:28:24.400these sort of fragmented kingdoms that are always going to be jockeying for position and a lot of
00:28:29.780infighting. So they also, both of them stand up to the church at a time when the church is
00:28:36.000consolidating power and it's growing increasingly misogynistic and more fundamentalist. So
00:28:42.760they're on the losing side of that. But unfortunately, the way the church reacts to
00:28:47.800both of them influences women for centuries. So we have to keep in mind that about a generation
00:28:54.960before them, women are still serving as deacons. So they're actually participating in mass. That
00:28:59.000has to be outlawed. Priests are still getting married. Things are a lot more in flux, and
00:29:04.020there's two denominations of Christianity, and it's kind of not clear which one's going to win
00:29:08.240out, whether it's going to be the more tolerant branch, or if it's going to be what eventually
00:29:13.420becomes Catholicism. We know Fredigan seems to be what I'd say a flexible Christian. There's some
00:29:20.560potentially some pagan influences there. And Brunhild is certainly was raised in a more
00:29:26.500tolerant Christian background. She's very tolerant of Jews in her kingdom. And she is like
00:29:32.020smacked down by the Pope for that. So we know that they have this more cosmopolitan worldview,
00:29:37.440maybe not because they're nice people, but just out of sheer necessity that they have to work with
00:29:41.480whoever will have them. But we also see like Fredegun clearly assassinating bishops and
00:29:46.680Brunhilde brings a rape case against another bishop and sticks up to some particularly
00:29:54.040fundamentalist monks and kicks them out of her kingdom. So they unfortunately don't win out,0.90
00:30:00.520but I think they're part of that struggle where it could have gone either way. And the fact that
00:30:04.860it goes against them we essentially pay the price so i actually have a question for you if that's
00:30:12.180okay please yes um or maybe two so you are clearly team fredigan by the way i love your um that's so
00:30:21.020fredigan merch oh thank you i just ordered a tote no oh uh i love it okay but i also i'm like really
00:30:27.660curious what caught your imagination other than maybe the red hair okay that is a factor but um
00:30:36.120so I think it was honestly because I had asked my listeners I was just like what are some
00:30:40.980interesting stories like what are some lessons and one of the listeners said Fred again and I'm
00:30:44.680like well who's that and I googled it so I honestly I read about Fred again first so that's I came to
00:30:50.200this all from a Fred again lens so I was just like who's Fred again and then excuse me Brunhild
00:30:55.580I'm like oh that's Fredigan's enemy like that was how I didn't make the choice after seeing
00:31:02.340them both and assessing it was just kind of like I came to it from a Fredigan point of view
00:31:06.860and from her point of view Brunhild is the enemy and that was just kind of where I came to it from
00:31:12.120but Brunhild I think I do think one day I might do a Brunhild episode just like flip it around to
00:31:17.620be like from her point of view what was happening but I don't know also Fredigan feels kind of like
00:31:22.040the underdog to me a bit and the way that she kept trying to assassinate Brunhild and it kept
00:31:27.740not working was like made me like her more it was like charming and then the fact like her
00:31:34.620the fact that her military victories were so stylish like the the the walking forest it's like
00:31:41.700that was her it's just I don't know so it's Fred again has a sort of I think because she wasn't as
00:31:49.480my sense is not as powerful as Brunhild so she was like scrappier and also the fact that she came
00:31:56.080from being like an enslaved person to being so powerful where Brunhild kind of had the she was
00:32:02.260like more groomed for it so yeah so I think it's the underdog quality I appreciate and also just
00:32:07.300her her flair her flair do you have a favorite Fred again story I love so many things about
00:32:13.740Fred again um when I was getting ready for this interview I was just like remember this remember
00:32:18.200when she did this and I was just like oh she did so many cool things I was like looking at
00:32:21.400my notes from when I was doing the episode I love the walking trees I love um I love that
00:32:27.800she kind of invented putting poison on blades that was iconic but I mean the part where god
00:32:37.080I forgot what it even was but when somebody had said that she had maybe committed adultery and
00:32:41.440then it's like well she could have 12 witnesses speak for her and she brought in 300 and they
00:32:46.860were like all like bishops and like the most important people like I think that's that's the
00:32:53.220most iconic Fredigan moment for me I think the 300 character witnesses yes excellent although I do
00:32:59.760like I like one of her military victories I forget the details exactly but it's where she got all of
00:33:05.920her army to like cut their hair so they would look like the other people yes the Bretons when she's
00:33:10.640uh so she wants to go against Guntram but she doesn't want to be seen to do so so she's like
00:33:16.380yeah these the bretons are fighting against you so we're just going to pretend we're bretons
00:33:21.140yeah well and where hair was so important to the like culturally but she's like what if i just like
00:33:26.560cut off everyone's hair and then yeah so just like i'm not someone who's into reading about like
00:33:32.000battle history but fredigan every time she did one it was something cool like that
00:33:36.180it made me interested in it yeah yeah that's very cool i love hearing that she is quite a character
00:33:44.180and what's so fascinating about both of these women is they never seem to have internalized
00:33:49.440the misogyny that's all around them like there's doesn't seem to be a lot of self-doubt there
00:33:54.080might have been but we don't see it but they were like why not why can't I yeah yeah I'm just as
00:33:59.860good as the rest of you if not better here I go well and I think I appreciate that too I love
00:34:06.080like not just like as a woman reading about women but just like as a person like I love reading
00:34:09.760about somebody who's just like that confident and outside the box and like who sees who's in this
00:34:15.400like pit of vipers environment where like anyone could betray you at any point but the way that
00:34:20.520they're both kind of like always one step ahead of that is like gratifying to read where they're
00:34:25.580sort of they are in ostensibly powerful roles but they could so easily be brought down and the fact
00:34:33.160they weren't was very um not inspirational but just like satisfying to read I think
00:34:41.040I think my favorite Fredigan story has to do with Sigivert's assassination but I just find it
00:34:48.780amazing that first she has this severe postpartum depression she basically seems like she might be
00:34:53.940borderline you know psychotic like she's cobitose and she somehow is able to snap out of that which
00:35:00.700in and of itself right everyone else around her is completely freaking out they're under siege
00:35:07.640they assume they're about ready to die and none of the military advisors or her own husband can
00:35:12.580figure a way out of it and she doesn't just recover she's able to keep a cool head and she's able to
00:35:18.240come up with an innovative idea for an assassination and then convince two boys to go on a suicide
00:35:23.420mission for her. I just can't imagine the, the wherewithal, especially on days when I can't
00:35:30.320get my grocery list together. And she was able to pull all of that off in such a short period of
00:35:35.760time. It's just stunning. I love that. I love that story too. I love just the image of just like
00:35:41.680everyone being chaotic around her. And she's just like pulls herself, even just momentarily to be
00:35:46.520like, okay, like clearly you can't do anything without me. Like, here's what we're going to do.
00:35:51.220like we're good and then she can just like go back into her coma or whatever like0.72
00:35:55.280like the yeah just the constant really smart things she did and because you're more um
00:36:02.760objective about all of this than I am what's your what's a Brunhilde
00:36:05.720iconic moment that you really like I really I do like when Brunhilde goes after the church
00:36:15.000occasionally. I also love that she cooperates. I didn't know this story, but Pope Gregory the
00:36:21.380Great happens to be somewhat progressive in that he's willing to work with women because nobody
00:36:27.000else seems to really want to work with him. And I love part of this idea that Bede erases from his
00:36:33.400history, but that Pope Gregory the Great thanks her and says, you're the reason that Britain is
00:36:38.780Christianized and that she's the one funding his missionary movement to send the monks over to
00:36:44.620Canterbury in the little kingdom of Kent and essentially convert all of those people so
00:36:52.100that's that was just something that I find really interesting that that's like an outsized influence
00:36:57.020that we don't know about that's kind of been erased I love her letters particularly
00:37:04.480there's a few where she there's one in particular where her grandson is being held hostage by the
00:37:12.140Byzantines and they're trying to get her to go to war in order to get him back and she writes these
00:37:18.180letters to the Byzantine Empress saying essentially part of her plays on her pity like oh feel bad for
00:37:25.080me my I miss my grandson and he's my only link to my dead daughter and I'm just so sad but then a
00:37:31.260minute later there's that steal and like it would be very unfortunate if something were to happen
00:37:35.240to your, you know, to your son, who's about the same age as my grandson. So you might want to
00:37:42.340keep that in mind and how she's able to kind of veer back and forth. So anytime I think that she
00:37:46.080maybe has lost the plot and she's genuinely upset, and then you realize, nope, she's thought this all
00:37:51.700out ahead of time. I also really love about Bernhilde, how she builds these networks with
00:37:59.160other women. So as much as we have the two of them fighting against one another, there was some part0.99
00:38:04.960of it that was kind of charming for me to realize that it wasn't necessarily personal because I
00:38:10.400think it can be really easy to get caught up in the catfight aspect of it as opposed to which I
00:38:16.760like that you focused on them as political rivals of just somebody's got to win and we've got to do
00:38:22.560this but I really like how there's this treaty that she negotiates and she makes sure throughout0.98
00:38:30.060the treaty to basically guard the rights of all these other women. So, you know, she, it's called1.00
00:38:37.100the Treaty of Andalot. And we know there's cooperation between her, another one of her
00:38:40.700daughters, her daughter-in-law, as well as Guntram's own daughter. And a third of that treaty
00:38:45.440just has to do with women. Like Brune Hope gets legal protection for herself. For all these other1.00
00:38:49.740women, it says we're financially independent. You can't force us into a convent. We can keep our
00:38:53.980property. We can dispose of it as we wish. So I really like that about her. And I also love the
00:39:00.040moment where Brunhild and Fredegund have to have this short-lived alliance so there's this time
00:39:04.760when Fredegund basically has to grudgingly symbolically adopt Brunhild's son and I just
00:39:10.680love to imagine the behind the scenes of that for both of them because you know there had to be some
00:39:17.800sort of gritting of the teeth and getting on with it but I also like that that really shows
00:39:22.120their very practical sides and how in some ways they're more similar than they are different.
00:39:26.760I love what you said about um like the the rights and stuff that Brunhild was codifying for women
00:39:35.160and stuff because I do one does find in stories where women take power especially in ones where
00:39:41.280they're like the regent but technically the like child boy is the king a lot of times like oh I'm1.00
00:39:46.720just like a lot of times they like separate from their gender I think out of survival but they0.51
00:39:51.720really don't stand up for other women because they know that that wouldn't be popular I'm I1.00
00:39:56.820can't think of a specific example but there's certainly women who have been in power but they0.98
00:40:01.320really rule I would say Elizabeth the first um but they really rule like men frankly right because0.75
00:40:08.220that's kind of what they have to do it's like the way that they can get respect is by being like oh
00:40:12.780I'm not really a woman like I look like a woman but I'm not really a woman I'm not going to like
00:40:16.140give like women rights. So I respect that Brunhilde and Fredegand didn't, well, like you were saying,0.93
00:40:23.640the cultural context of the time, it's like that misogyny of religion was not super influential
00:40:30.520at that point. So they were able to have a bit more leeway, I guess, than what future generations
00:40:36.260had to deal with. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of interesting too, to think about how there's
00:40:43.400this horrific climate change and this pandemic. And those are very bad things, but they also
00:40:49.200open up a lot of opportunities for women. And I think that that's just something that I am trying
00:40:55.180to keep in mind because people are more willing to try something unconventional. I mean, there is
00:41:00.900a shortage a lot of times of able leaders. We know a lot of the men just keep dying,
00:41:06.100but there is this sense of, you know what, things are kind of going to hell in a handbasket. Why not?
00:41:10.480why not try this? And so there is, I think, a little bit of hope to be found in that even just
00:41:16.840in our own time too, that sometimes really extreme circumstances can push us to think out of the box
00:41:23.600and to maybe allow people who've been marginalized to come to the forefront and to contribute to
00:41:29.620greater degree. Your book comes out on February 22nd. It does, yes. And are you going to, well,
00:41:39.220this is just a curious question of my own like you're going to be doing I assume like lots of
00:41:43.220other interviews and like you're going to be I know that as far as it's a mix of things right
00:41:49.440now being virtual and being in person I know that there is a virtual event on the 27th I believe
00:41:57.780it's February 27th DC's Politics and Prose but it's a free virtual event for anyone who would
00:42:03.560like to join. And I know there are some in-person events and a mix of virtual events, but anyone
00:42:09.720who's interested can certainly check out my website. It's shellypuhack.com. And that's
00:42:15.220shelly with an E-Y-P-U-H-A-K.com. And there's an events page and I am updating that as more and
00:42:21.560more things get on the schedule. So thank you. And thank you so much for your support of the book. I
00:42:26.240was so grateful to stumble across this podcast and to hear of your love of all things Fredagon.
00:42:32.120done. And I'm very excited to get my tote. Really? I mean, that's honestly, this is like a beautiful
00:42:37.180first full circle moment. Cause I just like found your book, did this podcast and now you have the
00:42:41.460tote. It's like, I don't know. It's a circle of life. It's beautiful. So good luck with all of
00:42:46.460your promotion. And I'm so excited for when the book comes out. And I know like listeners have
00:42:51.000been telling me like, they're excited to get the book. So you'll get a little vulgar history,
00:42:56.420little bump of purchases, I hope. Well, thank you. That's so gratifying. It's excellent.
00:43:00.660thank you so much thank you for having me i really appreciated chatting with you
00:43:05.760so as we said in the episode you can get a copy of the dark queens all over the place there are
00:43:13.740links in at shelly's website shellypuhak.com and i've got the link in the show notes as well
00:43:18.900and also check out her website to learn about all of the online events she has coming up because
00:43:23.580obviously as you just listen to she's a delightful person to listen to she has so much to say about
00:43:29.200this book and about these queens and i'm so happy that i got to share this interview with all of you
00:43:35.700um regular episodes of vulgar history are going to start next week uh season five is going to start0.96
00:43:42.040on march 2nd so stay tuned for that and until then keep your mask on and your tits out take care0.98
00:43:59.200Chew on this bold question from Dentine Gum.0.99
00:44:07.640Is it ever okay to compliment a millennial