00:08:43.180And I definitely feel extremely fortunate and felt like just the right
00:08:49.300timing. It just like everything fell into place, you know,
00:08:52.060like everything was just like, that was the sound of everything falling into
00:08:56.280place. Yeah, no, exactly. And I love that. I love that it did, you know,
00:09:00.020because like when you first got the idea you didn't think it was going to be a book but then
00:09:03.760once it became a book it sounds like yeah this is what it was meant to be here we go that's how I
00:09:09.000feel I feel like oh wow like that's a great lesson again it's like um there's a phrase rejection is
00:09:17.080protection you know what I mean like I sort of am like I need these reminders all the time like
00:09:22.540when we don't get what we want or what we think is best for us like to just sort of like keep
00:09:28.720keep chugging at it and i really do think this is like i i'm like so proud like i have a book
00:09:36.220and i'm really proud of the book and and like it was meant to be a book so here it is well what
00:09:41.780i'm thinking too like from what you're describing about like the tv world which i don't know
00:09:45.400anything about but the way you just described it it's like if you had made it a show and you
00:09:48.880had sold it a show and then it died like then these stories wouldn't have been told either
00:09:52.700so like exactly imagine they put me in development and we did all this development and i made good
00:09:57.680money right so you're making a good living but at the same time it's like it's not just about
00:10:03.480I it's like the older that I get the more you're like I want to do stuff that's like
00:10:08.660really super duper aligned with my values and like the stuff that I want to put out in the world and
00:10:17.220again like my feminist agenda it's been with me for a long time and I don't hide it
00:10:22.560it is it's an agenda and I want to push it and you know and doing it with humor and with like
00:10:30.240passion I think um like it helps I mean I want to like helps the medicine go down like it sounds
00:10:38.660like these stories are medicine they're they're not I had I just had a similar conversation with
00:10:43.980someone the other day where I was describing it as like vegetables it's like Jessica Seinfeld is
00:10:48.780like I'm sneaking the feminism into the fun story. So you don't even notice you're getting your
00:10:54.480spinach. Yeah. Right. You're getting your spinach. But the fact of the matter is, is if it's like,
00:10:59.460if we spin it that way, we're like saying like, you know, stories of women triumphing over the
00:11:04.200patriarchy is spinach when it's not, it's actually like totally dope. And when people, the feedback
00:11:09.860that I'm getting, like when strangers reach out to me, when they're reading the book, like it's
00:11:13.300so fulfilling because people are just like, Oh my God, like, how did I not know about this person
00:11:17.960or that person or how come I didn't know that and I'm like it's exciting I mean it's it's I get like
00:11:23.360a mixed bag sometimes people like I was really I was laughing while I was reading the book but I
00:11:27.780was also upset because I was like why don't I know these stories which is like kind of part of it too
00:11:32.300right yeah we're reliant on what was written down in the history books by like old white dudes
00:11:40.040yeah who often like had a reason for not wanting to write about women who did stuff because then
00:11:44.960it's like other women might hear about it and try and do stuff so yeah yeah and people of color and0.70
00:11:50.280queer people it's like everybody that's been othered because they don't want them
00:11:53.580like stepping on their turf meanwhile what i find interesting i find a lot of things interesting1.00
00:12:02.580that's why i have you on the podcast because i just want to like talk to you but um i was looking
00:12:06.680like just i've got a copy of the book here with me and i'm just like first of all sorry can i just
00:12:11.240say as an object this book is gorgeous like how at what point did the artist get involved in this
00:12:16.420at what point did you figure out it's going to be an illustrated book well I think we knew from the
00:12:21.820very beginning I mean I wanted it to be illustrated and it was a real journey to figuring out like
00:12:30.720how because it could there's a lot of books on the market that are like illustrated you know
00:12:36.460women empowerment and they're illustrated and it's like portrait portrait portrait and like
00:12:41.080no disrespect to anybody else's book but we wanted to do something elevated we wanted to do something
00:12:46.880like my editor from the very beginning was like I want this to be a beautiful object she used those
00:12:51.720exact words and and at first I was like oh okay like but it's a book like I just was like I'm a
00:12:58.460writer you know what I mean that's what I know but then when it came time to start searching for
00:13:02.440the artist I really wanted to be hands-on in that in that process because I like my taste and I
00:13:10.440want it to be aligned with what I love you know and I really love um like stuff like Egon Shile
00:13:18.720and stuff that's like a little bit more like rough or maybe sometimes looks unfinished or just looks
00:13:23.580very like like it's just not like super polished and I didn't want like a digital art look you know
00:13:31.440what I mean like I didn't want anything to be done on the computer and I poured over so many
00:13:38.600websites of artists and illustrators and I would go to websites that have um agencies that
00:13:46.500represented illustrators and they have like hundreds of portfolios and I would just click
00:13:50.980click click click click click I was like really into it and when I saw Tina's work I was like
00:13:58.700wait a second because it was like she's an established artist in Germany you know like
00:14:04.640she's she's got a big following and absolutely anyone that's listening like go to Instagram and
00:14:10.300find Tina burning I think it's Tina underscore burning she's got like 140,000 followers people
00:14:15.920love her and so when I came across her portfolio I was like this is this is stuff I would hang on
00:14:22.340my wall like her work is stuff that I would buy um or go see in a gallery and so I said this is
00:14:28.820the person I'd like to approach and we had a budget right so I was like I was really scared
00:14:34.560that we would not be able to afford her that that that she would pass you know and she loved
00:14:41.060the project you know her agent told her this is like um feminism meets oh my god what did she say
00:14:50.920that her agent told her but like she basically said it was like women and history and humor
00:14:56.960and she was like I'm in and it was again like like the way the book came to be like partnering with
00:15:03.860tina was meant to be like there's just no question and and um working with her was amazing because we
00:15:11.540really collaborated you know she's she's a true like she's an artist who she would read each
00:15:17.580chapter and she would wait till something like till she felt something you know and then she would
00:15:21.380do it and and then she would send it to me and i would look at it and be like oh my god nine times
00:15:28.940out of ten i was like i love it oh my god you're amazing but then occasionally i'd be like you know
00:15:33.580I really feel like like Joan of Arc the Joan of Arc illustration is a perfect example because
00:15:38.820she had done something I don't know if she was on a horse or she was far away you could see her
00:15:44.000body or she was in armor I can't even remember but I know that it was like a full body thing
00:15:47.680and I said you know almost every image that we see of Joan of Arc out in like the culture or
00:15:54.360whatever is like on the horse with the flag you know with the armor or whatever right and I was
00:15:59.100like what if we went super close up what if we just like did and of course I think like cinematically
00:16:04.160I'm like can we do a close-up and you know maybe we could see flames somewhere that's all I said
00:16:11.620and she goes I got it let me do it and then she came back with what she did and I was like
00:16:15.080like I just gasped because it's just like a perfect beautiful breathtaking portrait
00:16:20.300um and that was an example of of us like having this incredible dialogue and sometimes I would
00:16:29.000push back on it on an image I'd go you know what I don't this is maybe it's not my favorite and I
00:16:35.120don't like this or this and she would say you know what though I love it I really feel strongly
00:16:39.620about it and I'd like to keep it and I would go done because I respect her so much that it just
00:16:45.180was like a no-brainer it was like there was no angst in how we worked together on this so i'm
00:16:52.620forever grateful that tina agreed to do the art for this book and and and she really elevated
00:16:58.820just it's just the whole thing it is a beautiful object we achieved our goal well yeah i'm just
00:17:04.320like flipping through it while you're talking and it's like because yeah and i'm familiar with the
00:17:07.940other like really good books you know um where it's like a portrait and then a story of a person
00:17:11.880but you've got these sort of like interstitial like throughout the pages it's like there's one
00:17:16.920page i flip by and there's just kind of like sort of like flowers in the corner or whatever so
00:17:20.180there's kind of like yeah it's not just portrait and then a person it's like throughout you've got
00:17:24.240these things yes as she really illustrated the book like she she it's called spot art so we knew
00:17:30.080we wanted some spot art and she was it was that was all her you know like of course there's a book
00:17:35.820designer but but tina really stepped up she's like i think that we should you know erase the
00:17:41.860margin here and the art should be coming right out of the corner and it's like little things
00:17:45.540like that elevate like elevate the whole experience of being in the book you know what i mean like she
00:17:51.280um she just had suggestions that were so outside of the box like i think there's one she likes to
00:17:59.300also use found paper so you'll see like she the joan of arc is on like a piece of graph paper
00:18:03.900and um or just like found like painting from an accounting book or something you know what I mean
00:18:10.840and I love that she was just like oh yeah and this will go all the way to the top of the page
00:18:14.480like there's not going to be a margin it's just like super dope and so um I lost my train of
00:18:20.320thought I don't know but I just want to say it's like really it's inspiring just to hear about like
00:18:25.500you were so passionate about this then the agent was so passionate the editor was the artist was
00:18:29.440no one was just like okay let's just like do this book everyone was like yes like it matters
00:18:33.080and that energy sounds just like would have been so fun to be engaged with it was very um
00:18:40.920um it was like inspiring like it was and everybody that worked on the book
00:18:47.640um until the designer came on everybody else was a woman so the designer of the book Alex
00:18:54.840Coleman and I'm still like in terms of like what the font is and how the layout is but like Tina
00:19:00.940know tina did some of that as well with the layout you know because she's just a master at like how
00:19:07.740to place her art and like how to lay it out you know what i mean but like 99.9 of the people in
00:19:13.780the book were women which is pretty cool actually can i just before i forget i want to talk to you
00:19:20.340about so i noticed in the acknowledgments you said you had consulted with um somebody at glad
00:19:25.820so and i had been when i was reading the book i was just like this is like you threaded the
00:19:31.680needle really well about the whole like what is gender thing about like these are women who
00:19:37.600disguise themselves as men and you like really clarify very clearly like you're not how did you
00:19:43.840approach that like i assume that's the sort of stuff you talk with glad about like how to like
00:19:47.340not disrespect like the transgender experience and stuff yes i i knew that i wanted to focus on
00:19:55.100women in the book and so nobody in the book could be someone who has been misgendered or had a
00:20:03.140complicated relationship with historically how they've been portrayed and um so the so the goal
00:20:12.360of the book is someone a person who is told you can't do that you can't do that because you're a
00:20:17.340woman and then they went no I'm gonna do it anyway um or authors who they didn't necessarily they
00:20:24.200didn't physically disguise themselves in any way, but they took on a male pseudonym or they wrote
00:20:28.100anonymously. And so I did not include anybody in the book that would have identified as a man and
00:20:39.180then stayed that way for their life, as opposed to temporarily taking on a guise, temporarily
00:20:43.740taking on a name, temporarily identifying as a man to like go to medical school and then afterwards
00:20:49.980return to their woman self. So that meant that we had to take certain people that initially
00:21:00.200were in my proposal out of the book. And so I consulted with someone at GLAAD about
00:21:06.780Dr. James Berry, who's a very controversial figure and who, when you really read about him,
00:21:13.580is someone who would, even though the term transgender and the identity of transgender
00:21:18.300didn't exist in those, in that era, he's, he's a man, you know, so I was like, well, I'm not going
00:21:25.440to include him in the book. But in the early, the early days, I was going to try to include him in
00:21:32.920the book and to sort of address the misgendering that has happened to him in so much writing.
00:21:38.580And then I thought, you know, I can't because it's just not right. Even if you, even if my
00:21:44.540intentions are great and to write about him as a man and his male self it's like the book still is
00:21:51.080identified as a book about women and that would be you know harmful it wouldn't be the right thing
00:21:57.960however I'm glad I had great consultation um and you know um it was a journey and and just like
00:22:06.380every day of my life with my own gender with with the world you know it's it's all a journey and I
00:22:13.220And I love that we're in a time in history where, like, it just feels like fluidity in all ways, sexual, gender, like, just, like, everything just feels the most fluid for everybody than ever before.
00:22:27.860I think that's a great, I'm just, like, personally thrilled about it.
00:22:32.980But in terms of the book, I had to be really clear about this is my intention.
00:22:36.720This is what I want to address. People that were rule breakers, not people that were like, oh, I think I'm a man. And so they're like, you know what I mean? You don't they don't fit in the book. So they I didn't I didn't go there.
00:22:50.840yeah and you really I think clearly lay that out in the I think it's the foreword of the book just
00:22:56.400explaining your intent and what you're doing with it because I was curious because like
00:23:00.700I have covered for instance there's only two people in your book that I've done on my podcast
00:23:06.560which I've been doing for two years which I think is great just like how many women in history there
00:23:10.380are to talk about and one of them is Catalina de Arauso I've done on the podcast and that0.95
00:23:15.580and with that i struggled too where i was just like she lived as a man but like is this a trans
00:23:22.760person like can i do this on my women's history podcast but like to me ultimately she wrote a
00:23:27.800memoir that was like i catalina a woman and i'm like okay she's like self-defining herself so yeah
00:23:34.420right i think that it's like it's we and like i think i say in the in the introduction it's like
00:23:39.920we can run into dangerous torture when we in the contemporary times try to say or define fully
00:23:47.420what's what was going on in someone else's head and their mind and like it was a different time
00:23:52.560you know it was and so we can sort of like take their word right like if they're written a memoir
00:23:58.360and I think Catalina if I had if I had to say I would and I say this in the in the chapter I would
00:24:06.000say Catalina definitely seems like a gender non-conforming individual I mean I think I'm
00:24:11.100kind of gender non-conforming a lot of the time but I don't identify as gender non-conforming
00:24:15.480do you know what I mean like it's like that's a that's a very broad term but um but Catalina
00:24:23.900sorry I got a little I was looking at my dog and he's so beautiful I literally got distracted
00:24:28.900this is the saturday morning we are in right now people um so catalina i definitely think is the0.97
00:24:36.600most like gender non-conforming like really just did her own thing she wrote using female pronouns0.74
00:24:44.020and male pronouns in that book she went back and forth and um i i decided to use her specifically
00:24:51.760for that reason it's like these were this was her story she went back and forth and she at the end
00:24:57.680of the day she was in a convent they were gonna like make her do her final vows because they
00:25:03.500thought she was a troublemaker and she was she was a lot of trouble you know she just was um
00:25:08.580they were just like we're never gonna marry this one off and I just love that she was like I'm out
00:25:14.560of here and she like escaped the convent like dressed as a boy and was like I'm gonna do what
00:25:19.660I want to do I'm not gonna be in this church like whatever you call a nun what is it called a convent
00:25:25.580convent and like you know hanging out with women and god all day like no thank you so um and she0.84
00:25:33.920used you know dressing as a man to to do that and so i was like i was like she has to be in the book
00:25:41.540yeah and i think also um kylina and then i think there's also in here other people too like i think
00:25:47.880you also do such a good job of like not being like okay so if we look at sort of the development of
00:25:53.680like books that are like women from history like the first books were kind of like look at all
00:25:56.960these people girl boss they're all heroes and then your book introduces kind of like or what
00:26:02.740if they were nuanced people who sometimes were really shitty like you know right not and catalita0.78
00:26:08.660is such a good example of that because she was effectively a serial killer a genocide serial
00:26:13.420killer um yeah exactly so i love that you get into that nuance of not just being like
00:26:18.840that sort of like i guess i can understand like in a book for kids which your book is not
00:26:23.780you want to be like look at this person it's like joan of arc she was brave the end you know but
00:26:28.760writing for adults and especially in the era we're in like i love that you're able to to see
00:26:35.640these people as people like kind of like shitty things they did too right like including people
00:26:42.400like Catalina and Christian Cottle, the witch pricker was important because, you know, equal
00:26:48.440opportunity, man. Like, because there's any number of books about dudes and all their fucked up0.98
00:26:54.640exploits. And like, you know, there's Tony Sopranos in the world. There's Walter White's0.96
00:26:59.040and their beloved. They're horrible people. They do horrible things. These, I know they're0.99
00:27:03.220characters, but I come from the world of TV where they would say, you know, we're really interested
00:27:08.020in anti-heroines bring us like an anti-heroine just like Walter White and Tony Soprano and then
00:27:13.680I would write something amazing and they'd be like whoa that's a bit dark that's a bit dark
00:27:19.240for this woman and they would never say for this woman but it was like it's it's sexist you know
00:27:26.040what I mean what's good for the goose is good for the gander not so much and so um it was important
00:27:31.340to me to be like look not everybody is like just because they're a woman like the story doesn't
00:27:38.080have to be like wrapped up in a tiny bow and perfect and um and pretty and and they're nice
00:27:44.480and they did great things in the world yay heroes and heroines I was like no like people are0.98
00:27:51.720more nuanced than that and there are women who decided that they were going to do whatever the
00:27:58.600that they wanted and sometimes that was like not great but i still want to like talk about them and
00:28:05.260the thing about christian cattle who participated in like you know the witch hunts and contributed
00:28:11.220to people you know being tortured and murdered which is uh bad but the thing that i explore in
00:28:18.880the chapter is also like it's not i don't know the whole story none of us know the whole story
00:28:25.840Like it was, it must've been a terrifying time to be a woman and just maybe there's
00:28:32.780a self-preservation aspect to her story, which is like, I'll become this like witch hunter
00:28:40.100of the skies to myself as a man and I'll be protected.
00:28:54.980So I just, I like to look at, I like to look at like different angles of a, of a story just because, yeah, like you said, this isn't a picture book. This isn't like, this is the story. It's pretty. And that's it. We're done.
00:29:10.480yeah and so looking at exactly i think there's sometimes um god i mean like i think you and i
00:29:19.260could have a whole other conversation about like feminism in the in this you know era but like um
00:29:25.260sometimes feminism can be misinterpreted as like all women are good and we should all
00:29:31.260applaud all of them where it's like no like a complete understanding of feminism includes the
00:29:37.100fact that like there are terrible women and there are good women and like it's in the same proportion
00:29:43.280as men like the whole point is like there's not women should neither be put on the pedestal but0.85
00:29:48.820also not the expectations that they're perfect but also like not assuming they're all shitty it's
00:29:53.060like what about nuance and i think your book does such a good job of that thank you um i want to ask
00:30:00.320you like as a tv writer comedian like not a historian um had you had like an interest in
00:30:07.440history like from when you were a kid were you like reading a books about like ancient egypt
00:30:11.400like was this has this always been something that interests you you know i i definitely loved history
00:30:19.480class but i wouldn't necessarily identify myself as someone that's like i love history i'm a history
00:30:25.100nerd however I love women you know what I mean I love women I love the stories of women I love
00:30:31.640the underdog which is often you know in history it's like you know who got left off the page
00:30:37.300like I'm just you know my my next book idea is like it's not about women disguising themselves
00:30:45.120but it's also like it's it it's like a companion piece for sure to this book in terms of like
00:30:50.240similar themes and I'm really into it. And the other thing I'm into is research. So it was like
00:30:58.260sort of hit these two favorite things, which is I love women slash underdogs and like revealing
00:31:05.180these things that, you know, more people should know about injustice, definitely consumed with
00:31:10.740injustice. Um, and I love researching and uncovering things. Like I really discovered
00:31:17.540while researching and writing this book.
00:31:20.560And I was like, oh, I am into research.
00:32:17.120And I was like, oh, I learned that about myself. Like, that was really cool. And for sure, before I write any TV script, I do a lot of reading. I do a lot of research. I just didn't really, I didn't really clock it as much before because, yeah, I just realized, oh, that's part of my process. Like, I like to read about just like dive in and go as deep as possible.
00:32:41.960mm-hmm and is that how like how who was the first person that you thought of when you're
00:32:49.720doing this project i'm sure the research led you to some of the more lesser known people but like
00:32:54.500who who were the first ones that you knew about oh i think rena rusty kanakogi because0.81
00:33:05.760her story was so linked to an injustice like she wanted to compete in judo and it was the 50s
00:33:18.480and she disguised herself as a boy to join the rest of her YMCA team in um I believe it was in
00:33:28.120Brooklyn and she won and then they said wait a second are you a girl and she said yes and they
00:33:35.620stripped her of her metal and then that injustice that moment in her life literally set her off
00:33:43.320on a lifetime of advocacy and like hard all dedication not only did she become like
00:33:50.680a seventh level black belt I don't know what the term the exact terminology is I don't have
00:33:56.620the book in front of me right now not only did she become like an incredible judo master
00:34:03.120but she also it's because of her that women's judo even got to the olympics it's like her0.98
00:34:10.560it's her and her work and she said in the new york times late in her life if they hadn't stripped
00:34:16.880me of that medal at that ymca tournament women's judo wouldn't have been in the olympics like she
00:34:22.960drew the line she drew that thread line and so when i heard her story i was like here's someone
00:34:28.220that was told no you can't do this she was like yes I can and I'm gonna and then like it was a
00:34:34.440short period in her life it was like maybe an afternoon right that she was disguised as a boy
00:34:40.120but it was like it affected her entire life and then it like and not only her life how many0.54
00:34:46.460people's lives did did her work in which she did affect and the and the and the sport of women's
00:34:53.220judo itself. So I was like, oh my gosh, this is incredibly inspiring. I believe she was definitely
00:34:59.920one of the first people I read about. And I thought, I wonder, because early on, I didn't
00:35:04.680know if I was going to uncover enough people that really fit that category. And of course,
00:35:12.000as I did my research, I really started to want to stretch the premise a bit, i.e. Catherine
00:35:17.920Switzer did not disguise herself as a man to run the Boston Marathon however she signed up for the
00:35:24.720Boston Marathon using her initials as opposed to her full very female sounding name she got the
00:35:30.800numbers and then she was able to run the marathon and it was a huge deal it was a huge uproar and
00:35:37.140it really inspired change after that you know and so I wanted to be able to stretch the premise a
00:35:44.960little bit, but it wasn't just, it wasn't just disguise. There was like many different aspects
00:35:51.080of like Mary Edwards Walker, the, uh, the sole female recipient of the medal of honor.
00:35:58.900Um, only the second American woman to graduate from medical school. She spent most of her life
00:36:07.200wearing what was considered men's clothing. She adamantly said, I don't wear men's clothing. I
00:36:12.900wear my own clothing this is what I'm wearing and she identified as a woman her whole entire life1.00
00:36:17.840and she was like adamantly wanted to present as female and also wear whatever she wanted
00:36:23.420and so it's like again this isn't someone that was in the disguise but she did you know dress
00:36:30.000as a man to do something she wasn't supposed to do like she was arrested innumerable times in her
00:36:34.980career in her life for what for dis impersonating a man simply because she wanted to wear trousers
00:36:40.820yeah you know so again it's it's not it's it's stretching the premise but it's not it's like
00:36:47.260it's not just that's why i didn't use the word disguise in the title you're right you say women
00:36:52.060who dressed like men so that could be a philosophical dressing yeah yes well and then
00:37:01.060you have a whole i don't is it a chapter or just like where you talk about anonymous was a woman
00:37:05.060And you talk about female authors who use male pseudonyms, like Mary Shelley wasn't wearing men's clothes, but she published as anonymous.
00:37:14.280Right. So I knew that I wanted. So in the beginning, the very, very beginning of thinking about the book, I was just like, well, I want to talk about I want to talk about these authors.
00:37:25.100And, like, I knew about George Sand, who obviously took on the name of George and also famously wore trousers and 100% identified as a woman.
00:37:39.980And I was just like, hmm, there's something here with the authors.
00:37:43.780And then when I started to research, I went, oh, my God, there's so many people.
00:37:47.040This has to be like a like a compilation chapter.
00:37:49.580This has to be like, and, you know, I was like, I'm going to go all in and just write about women who wrote using male pseudonyms, those who wrote anonymously, those who, like George Sand, took on a male name, but pretty early in her career, it was just understood that she was a woman.
00:38:14.040And so, like, it just kind of is, it's all over the place. There's a lot of different reasons why someone would take on a male name or write anonymously. And so I wanted to, like, dive into, like, all of it and to get, like, really juicy. And I couldn't believe I found so many people. And I probably could have included more. But, you know, we didn't want the chapter to be the entire book.
00:38:34.160So that was a really fun chapter to read, to write, because my friends who are like bookworms, you know, have read, they're more well read than I.
00:38:45.940And when I talked to them about Jane Austen, I said, like, did you know that in Jane Austen's lifetime, she never published using her name, like never while she was alive, was her name on one of her books.
00:38:57.840And my friends were like, what? How do I not know that? And I'm like, oh, this makes the chapter even more exciting because I'm telling people like things that they think that they know about these well-known people.
00:39:11.740The Bronte sisters, while they were alive, they only published using male names. Nobody I talked to knew that in terms of my friends, my circle of friends.
00:39:20.840so i just thought that was really juicy because i was like there's a lot to to talk about here
00:39:27.720that's going to surprise some people even about well-known uh people yeah and i think that's also
00:39:34.180a real um strong point well and i'm sure it was canny on your part that this book there are people
00:39:39.400who are very lesser known and then there's joan of arc you know we already mentioned or like mary
00:39:45.360shelley it's like oh people have heard of them but you don't know this angle about their life
00:39:49.680so it's not just like here's a book full of people you've never heard of it's like oh no
00:39:53.540there's like touchstones here yeah um for sure and it wasn't like i i was like oh i'm gonna
00:40:01.240i didn't like plan that it just kind of happened and i was like oh i like this you know like it's
00:40:08.200a it's a mixed bag and there's also someone like mary shelley who like has gotten a raw deal
00:40:13.480right so it's like i want to write from a feminist perspective and say you know there's a lot of
00:40:18.240people still out here in 2022 who believe that her husband wrote that book you know this is still
00:40:23.980a common uh narrative and um she published uh Frankenstein the first edition was uh anonymous
00:40:35.280there was no name given but her husband her poet husband Percy I don't know how to say his middle0.95
00:40:42.620name bish shelly yeah yeah yeah a dumb name he wrote like a forward like he he wrote like an
00:40:51.260introduction or whatever and so people were like oh well obviously he wrote the book because when0.95
00:40:56.580it came out that it was her and i think she was a teenager when she wrote it yeah yeah uh they were
00:41:02.020like this girl wrote this book about this monster i don't think so and i mean that's infuriating0.99
00:41:08.460right so i was like i want to uh put this down on record but this is some bullshit0.90
00:41:14.800yeah there was an article i don't know every time i'm also like big mary shelley stan um but
00:41:20.840every now and then like either i see an article or someone forwards it to me where it's like
00:41:25.360someone says like oh h.g wells invented science fiction it's like i'm sorry no this like 16 year
00:41:31.840old like wrote this novel like whatever a hundred years before that like please put some respect on
00:41:37.920her name yes I love the like two-page spread by the way like again I have the book in front of me0.85
00:41:45.280I'm just like perusing but yeah so this whole section anonymous was a woman there's like two
00:41:49.040page picture can you I don't you don't have it in front of you but it's like can you describe I
00:41:53.340know exactly yeah yeah this was a big deal this this um this image because when I finished that
00:41:58.080chapter I knew that it was longer than all the others and I said this should be right in the
00:42:02.620middle of the book and so I talked to Tina and Tina had done in her work I had seen her do a
00:42:09.520couple of like of these group these big group shots not dissimilar to that image and I said
00:42:16.500I'm having I don't know is there something that we could do that's in that vein and she said to me
00:42:21.620which always thrilled me when she would say this to me that's a great idea Tracy because I was like
00:42:27.720oh my god i just i really talk about holding someone up on a pedestal i definitely uh think
00:42:32.800that of tina so she's like let me let me let me think about it and then she did this big group
00:42:38.020uh image and initially um all the men had faces and the women had faces and and she sent it to
00:42:48.120me and i went oh what's with all these dudes like i was bummed out like i was like ah like it's just
00:42:53.880there's a lot of men and there's so much more of them. And I know that that's the reality, but
00:42:57.800there's something it's, it's not thrilling me. I don't get it. And she said, ah, I have an idea.
00:43:04.960What if I take, what if I make all the men faceless? And then she went and she like got
00:43:10.300rid of all the men's faces. And then the women were highlighted in a different color and their
00:43:14.840faces are clear. And she sent it back to me and I gasped. And whenever I show that image to friends,
00:43:22.320they gasp oh my goodness because when you look you go oh there's Virginia Woolf you go oh there's
00:43:28.620Mary Shelley like you can pick them out even though they're these teeny tiny faces and then
00:43:33.880later in the chapter there's the full-size version of each of those uh images which is great and
00:43:41.060it's like flipping flipping the anonymity thing you know the men are anonymous in that big image
00:43:46.260because we're highlighting the women and it's a beautiful it's a beautiful image it's so stunning
00:43:52.180And that's the thing. I'm really happy to hear about how collaborative the art piece of it was, because I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure if you had just like written this book and then they handed it off to someone who did the pictures. Like, I love knowing that you were so involved in helping or just like with feedback.
00:44:04.260Yeah, it was special. It was truly like it was just a blessed, special process. And also, like, I mean, I quickly fell in love with Tina, you know, like it was like we just happened to have a great rapport.
00:44:19.140and we still talk you know every other day and I can't wait to go to Berlin I was like on one of
00:44:27.180our FaceTimes I was like you have an extra bedroom right because I'm coming and I just think I mean
00:44:33.600my dream my dream is that obviously the book would be published in different languages and I think
00:44:38.280because she's you know a well-known German artist I would love it if some German publisher would
00:44:44.180want to do the German version and use all the same art. And I would come to Germany and we
00:44:51.780would have a big party. That is my dream. And I'm putting it out in the universe.
00:44:55.100Yes. That's perfect. So is it, has it been sold in other countries or is that still like ongoing?
00:45:00.720It's ongoing right now. And it apparently, you know, each book is its own animal. Like sometimes
00:45:05.660obviously certain books, like maybe novels, like sell to multiple markets very easily and fast.
00:45:13.340and other times it's a real slow rollout I'm told and we are talking to some people but
00:45:19.180it's a real fingers crossed thing because the other thing about this book is it's not a novel
00:45:23.300which has one picture on the cover and then it's all words it's a big undertaking it's it's like
00:45:28.260you can tell I'm sure when you hold the book in your hands like it's a beautiful like they they
00:45:33.140it's it's an expensive you know book and so they would have to really like want to do it or feel
00:45:40.000like it would be a success i personally think it's a no-brainer come on guys i i think i would
00:45:45.540like it to be in french because my mother's french canadian and whole half my family is french so i'm
00:45:52.320like i would love there to be a french version and i would love there to be a german version so
00:45:56.680those are my two uh wishes well also the the people in the book like they're international
00:46:01.480figures so it's like i feel like any yeah country where one of these people lived there should be
00:46:07.380yeah that version i think i i counted quite a few uh french people in the book actually which was
00:46:13.900not like oh i'm i'm one of all these french people it just was some of that's how some of
00:46:18.440the stories you know showed themselves to me but um yeah i mean fingers crossed on the france thing
00:46:26.040because i hear that there's some discussion but it's like you know you don't want to hold your
00:46:30.300breath you just keep on going with your life yes well i'm excited when you said that you like have
00:46:35.040ideas for a follow-up book because i think this would be a great little duology whatever the the
00:46:42.200second book would be what would the second book be tell me what's your idea well i can't i can't
00:46:45.840talk about it is it secret okay but it would be also biographies of people there's gonna be it's
00:46:52.940gonna be i mean the dream you know we're hoping it all gets greenlit but it's like it i will just
00:47:00.120say like it's a sister piece to this while not being about people who dressed as men to break
00:47:07.500rules it's not even really about rule breakers but it is definitely like women and
00:47:14.400it's it's it's like they would fit together I mean that's the only thing that I could say
00:47:20.720and I'm really hoping uh yeah I'm excited to start working on it basically okay okay I don't
00:47:27.660want you to make your vow of secrecy but I'm I'm really happy to hear that just because I know like
00:47:31.480you're a tv writer and you wrote a book and sometimes people like well that's it I wrote
00:47:34.460my book and I'm gonna like do something else but I'm glad that you're like you know into this yeah
00:47:37.800I'm I'm I really am leaning into it because it really is like it's like that thing where they're
00:47:44.820like go where the love is and I'm like feeling so much love and I I just loved the process
00:47:50.060and working with Tina and if we can do the same exact sort of collaboration and do like a companion
00:47:55.360in peace in that, in that way that, you know, it's a, it's like a similar book with Tina. Like
00:48:01.720that's, that would be the dream. And it's like, who doesn't want to, it's like, you know, when
00:48:06.440certain directors like always want to use work with the same cast, they're making different
00:48:10.120movies, but they're like, they're sticking with what they love and the people that they love
00:48:15.020working with. And so my thing is I would love to keep doing that. And, you know, this book and the
00:48:20.420next book like both of them could be could be adapted for screen like there's there's there's
00:48:25.840a lot of options that that could bring me back for sure to the world of tv and film which I'll
00:48:31.880always you know be working on but right now what I'm feeling this call to do is I I mean I just
00:48:38.280loved it I was also really lucky because I sold the book on March 20th 2020 and I don't remember
00:48:43.700what was happening at that time people were buying books that day okay yeah uh it was wild
00:48:51.380yeah it was it was wild I mean I was very fortunate that this editor wanted this book
00:48:57.640so she was not letting uh transitions to working at home and pandemics stop her and um and so
00:49:05.880it was a crazy time to sell a book right when you're like I wonder what's gonna happen in the
00:49:10.880world and there's just like i know what i'm doing for the next two years and i foolishly thought by
00:49:15.920the time we published in may 2022 that the pandemic would be a thing of the past which is
00:49:21.840just so wild it's so wild just to think like nope i was i thought i was being real i didn't think i
00:49:29.180was being pie in the sky in my thinking either i thought i was being a realist no no one did yeah
00:49:33.260yeah we were like we're going home for like two months oh here we go but yeah honestly no but
00:49:39.040Even, even me, I was like a year of like, okay, so a year from now will be 2021.
00:49:43.860And then we're still a year from pub date.
00:49:46.480So I was like, I'm going to be doing book tours.
00:49:49.140I'm going to be doing events in the store.
00:49:51.440I had done one event in person this whole, this whole time, which is totally fine.
00:49:58.280I've actually loved all the events and the, and the things that I've been doing from the