Vulgar History - Canadian History： Thanadelthur, the Peacemaker

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast. My name is 0.73

00:00:16.440 Anne Foster and this is a special episode. I'm talking to you right now as somebody who

00:00:22.240 lives in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada, which I think given the demographics of who's

00:00:28.960 listening to this podcast, I might be the only person a lot of you know who lives in this part

00:00:34.500 of the world. And so you may or may not have heard that there are currently devastating wildfires

00:00:39.560 happening in this region of Canada. So just some facts and information about what's going on.

00:00:46.100 So as of right now, and I'm recording this on Sunday, June 1st, 2025, more than 25,000 residents

00:00:52.620 in three provinces in Canada have been evacuated as dozens of wildfires remain active and affect

00:00:57.920 air quality in parts of Canada. And I think the air quality is also going down, affecting some

00:01:03.240 people in US nearby. So most of the evacuated residents are from Manitoba, which is the

00:01:09.560 province just next to where I live in Saskatchewan. Manitoba has declared a state of emergency last

00:01:15.600 week. And so just people are being evacuated from there as well as more recently from Saskatchewan

00:01:21.580 as well, where it's been declared a state of emergency. People in Alberta are being evacuated

00:01:25.960 as well and these are mostly from people from the northern parts of all of these provinces

00:01:30.820 and so evacuation centers have opened up in Saskatchewan and also in Manitoba to to make

00:01:39.880 places to make space for these people many of whom have lost their homes have lost their livelihood

00:01:44.400 there's children involved families there's so many people who are living with this terrible

00:01:50.480 situation and including there's some people are taking shelter here where I live in Saskatoon

00:01:55.920 So just so you know, and this is not what all this is about, but just so you know, like, I'm fine. The city where I live in, in Saskatoon, the air is kind of crappy, but like, I'm far away from where the fires are myself. Myself and my cat Hepburn are both fine. But there's so many people who are being affected by this. And a lot of them are currently residing in the city where I am.

00:02:15.240 And so I thought as a person living in this part of the world who has a platform, I wanted to just raise awareness about the situation and to advise some ways that people could help if you have the means to do so and if you are so moved.

00:02:30.520 One organization that I wanted to specifically highlight, and this is, you can donate to them from anywhere in the world, which is why I wanted to mention it because I know that the people listening to this are from around the world.

00:02:41.020 and i do also want to mention one of the reasons why i'm doing this is because it affects me

00:02:45.880 personally this is the city that i live in um but also because the listeners of this podcast

00:02:51.060 are the tits out brigade and i feel like a brigade are people who come to the aid of other people

00:02:56.980 who are in need and this is one of those times so i wanted to highlight the organization the

00:03:02.520 world central kitchen which is was founded by chef jose andres and he this organization it's

00:03:10.620 They're on the front lines of anytime there's a crisis in the world, one of the first, they're

00:03:14.800 like first responders practically, like World Central Kitchen, like they show up and they

00:03:19.640 stay there until things are okay.

00:03:22.160 And what they're providing is they send staff, which includes chefs who come to these communities

00:03:28.180 and they work with local people, including local restaurants, local chefs to provide

00:03:32.920 food to everyone who's being affected by various disasters.

00:03:36.980 So they're in Canada currently helping to feed all these evacuees who are just away from their homes and in need of help and in need of care. World Central Kitchen also, they're on the front lines basically anywhere where you hear about where there's something horrible is happening and people need help. World Central Kitchen is always there.

00:03:59.040 they're in gaza they're in ukraine i remember when there was the devastating shooting in uvaldi

00:04:04.100 in the u.s like they were on the scene there like they show up and they help feed people because

00:04:09.380 so many people like for talking about these the people affected by these fires they need help

00:04:15.460 and long-term solutions to what has happened to them and in the immediacy of right now like they

00:04:22.220 need food like everybody needs to eat and world central kitchen is right there for all of them so

00:04:27.980 if you wanted to donate to World Central Kitchen, you can go to donate.wck.org. That's

00:04:35.680 donate.wck.org. And you can donate to them online. You can send them a check. You can donate via

00:04:43.420 online different ways. And you can donate specifically to them, to the Climate Disaster

00:04:49.040 Fund or any specific fund that they have going on. So the money's earmarked for that. The Climate

00:04:53.360 disaster fund is where the money is going to to help the people who are being hurt by extreme

00:04:59.180 weather conditions like the people near where I live you could also just donate to them generally

00:05:03.960 it's a fantastic organization that I support regularly and so I wanted to mention them as well

00:05:08.800 there's lots of organizations who are helping the people who are affected by these wildfires

00:05:14.300 in Canada right now because I'm in Saskatoon I wanted to give some love to a local organization

00:05:19.740 which is called COMFI which stands for the Central Urban Métis Federation Incorporated

00:05:28.460 and so who they are this is a community-based Métis-owned and operated non-profit charitable

00:05:34.860 organization located in Saskatoon Saskatchewan and all the call-outs I'm seeing about like here's

00:05:41.560 where you can drop off donations like here's who's helping people out like COMFI seems to be really

00:05:46.940 involved in this whole situation so that's why i wanted to shout them out specifically

00:05:50.000 and the connection that they have to the people who are being evacuated right now

00:05:55.220 is that as i said they're a metis organization so just so you know a lot of the people who live

00:06:02.120 up in these northern regions who've been evacuated are indigenous people in canada

00:06:06.160 which includes people of the the metis nation which is a distinct indigenous nation in canada

00:06:12.960 and so a lot of a lot of metis people live in manitoba the province next to saskatchewan

00:06:20.740 and so the metis organization here in saskatoon is really stepping up i think because that's a

00:06:25.900 lot of their family that's a lot of people who they know and so if you want to support comfy

00:06:31.380 the essential urban metis federation incorporated go to comfy.org slash donate that's c-u-m-f-i

00:06:39.040 dot org slash donate and i also wanted to mention as well the united way of saskatoon and area has

00:06:46.620 a fund to support northern saskatchewan fire evacuees the donations that you provide to them

00:06:52.100 are helping to provide tickets to community events movie outings visits to the zoo transportation for

00:07:00.060 for all these people so just meeting the urgent needs of these people as well if you wanted to

00:07:04.060 donate to them. That is unitedwaysaskatoon.ca, unitedwaysaskatoon.ca. And I'm going to put the

00:07:11.800 links to all of these organizations in the show notes of this episode, so you can easily find

00:07:16.380 those links as well. And when I was planning to record this episode, I thought, well, I wanted to

00:07:23.920 give this information. And then I thought, actually, this connects really strongly to

00:07:28.100 an episode that i released this podcast i think it was last year um about uh indigenous women from

00:07:34.720 the dane culture whose name was the nalder who is a heroine of of people of this region of northern

00:07:42.960 saskatchewan northern manitoba that area so when we're talking about where this woman where she

00:07:48.060 lived where her story unfolded that was in some of the areas that are currently being devastated

00:07:53.860 by fires. So I thought I would re-release this episode where I'm talking about the Indigenous

00:07:59.900 Canadian heroine, the Nalder. And actually, since I released this episode in the first place,

00:08:04.920 and this does have to do with the Hudson's Bay Company, which is when I recorded it was a

00:08:11.740 department store in Canada that was quite well known. And it is still quite well known, but it's

00:08:16.000 actually closed since I recorded this. So just think about a business that was around back in

00:08:22.280 Thinalder's time all the way through till now. Just gives you kind of a sense of how long

00:08:28.060 colonization has been happening in this part of the world. Anyway, please consider donating to

00:08:34.620 one of the organizations I mentioned, if you have the means and the ability to do so.

00:08:39.320 And otherwise, here's a re-release of an episode from last year about the DNA heroine, Thinalder.

00:08:47.200 hello and welcome to vulgar history of feminist women's history comedy podcast my name is ann

00:08:56.280 foster and today is such a special episode for me and i hope for you also today we're going to

00:09:02.300 be talking about a figure from canadian history from dene history indigenous history of north

00:09:08.240 america named denelder who i had heard about just you know i spent a lot of time looking up who are 0.93

00:09:15.260 some women from history. And as a podcast host based in Saskatchewan and Canada, I've long wanted

00:09:21.120 to find somebody where there's enough information. And it's, you know, a story that's got enough

00:09:26.600 twists and turns that we can do an hour long podcast about her. And Thinalder was someone

00:09:31.020 I'd always wanted to learn more about. And then I happened upon just in my regular searching for

00:09:36.520 things, I found a paper that was written by today's guest, Rosalie Tassani-Burseth about

00:09:41.540 and elder. And it really had the level of information that I needed to be able to be

00:09:47.700 confident that this can be an episode of the podcast. I'm going to tell you a little bit of

00:09:52.460 Canadian history just to sort of get everybody, because there's a lot of people listening who

00:09:56.840 are not in Canada and you don't know the history of what led to the situation we're going to be

00:10:01.780 looking at so effectively. So for much of the 17th century, there were French colonists in

00:10:09.620 what we now call Canada and there were English colonists and for thousands of years tens of

00:10:15.080 thousands of years before then there were lots and lots and lots of indigenous people and so

00:10:20.600 northern Canada what we would now call northern Canada was one of the in terms of the European

00:10:27.280 colonization of North America it's kind of one of the last places where that happened just because

00:10:32.220 it's one of the more challenging places to live if you don't know how to to live in that sort of

00:10:38.980 climate and that sort of temperature. And so what ended up happening is that a company,

00:10:45.260 like literally a company, the Hudson's Bay company, which is where the current company

00:10:51.020 you might've heard of now, the Bay in Canada, that's where they got their start as the Hudson's

00:10:55.680 Bay company. And so what this was is that during the reign of Charles II, they got funding to come

00:11:03.620 and explore around Northern Canada to find for hunting reasons, for fur trade reasons,

00:11:11.120 the history of much of Canada, what we now call Canada is fur trade based. Whereas in,

00:11:18.980 in Central America, Mexico, South America, a lot of it was looking for, it was Spanish and

00:11:24.860 Portuguese and Dutch people looking for gold in what we now call the United States. The colonization

00:11:30.700 was a mixture of people, corn and tobacco plantations, and then also mixed with some

00:11:37.820 English people who were religious refugees. North of there, it's fur trade-based because

00:11:44.180 there's a lot of furry animals here because it gets cold. So the Hudson's Bay Company established

00:11:49.560 various trading posts. And so they were working with the nearby indigenous people who traditionally

00:11:56.200 had been doing hunting. And so that was who they sort of contracted out to do a lot of the hunting.

00:12:00.700 to get the furs that they would then trade. And so the people who are going to be looking at

00:12:06.800 specifically in this story, so there's the Cree people living in this, the setting of the story

00:12:13.560 is what would now be Northern Manitoba in Canada. Look that up on a map if you're not sure where

00:12:20.100 that is. So there's the Dene people and there's the Cree people. And the Hudson's Bay company was

00:12:25.800 mostly working with the Cree. And we're going to, Rosalie is going to explain sort of the setting

00:12:30.980 of the inter-tribal conflicts between the Cree and the Dene. But this is part of what had happened

00:12:37.400 is because of the Cree trading with the Hudson's Bay Company, they had things like muskets. They

00:12:42.440 had some other tools and things that the Dene did not have because they were not involved 0.98

00:12:46.240 in this trade. And so just kind of setting the scene of what's going on. I know Canadian history 0.83

00:12:52.300 is not well known to people outside of Canada. So just sort of setting the scene. Rosalie,

00:12:57.740 today's guest is such an incredible storyteller. I really, she's going to walk us through the story

00:13:03.580 and to Nelder and how remarkable she really is. And I'm so excited for you to hear today's episode

00:13:09.540 with special guests, very special guest, Rosalie Tassani-Burseth, who I just want to mention also.

00:13:14.940 She is a member of the Hatchet Lake Disilne First Nation in Treaty 10 territory.

00:13:21.200 Treaty 10 Canada, what we call Canada, there's a variety of treaties that were made between

00:13:26.920 the British and the various indigenous groups.

00:13:29.660 Treaty 10 territory comprises much of northern Saskatchewan and northern Manitoba.

00:13:35.580 So I'm based in Saskatoon, and this is the first Saskatchewan-based guest I've had on

00:13:42.880 the podcast. And I'm so excited for you to hear this interview and to hear the storytelling of

00:13:49.320 Rosalie Tzani-Bursas. Okay, so today I'm joined by Rosalie Tzani-Bursas, and we're talking about

00:14:01.820 the Nelder. And I think you've explained to me, I think you are the expert on this story. So I'm so

00:14:08.640 glad to have you here to join me rosalie thank you for coming on the podcast thank you one of

00:14:14.100 my favorite topics as a young girl is about her as i know by all means i'm not the expert i've

00:14:21.240 researched her in many forms in many ways however the elders hold that expert in in their oral

00:14:28.420 stories so i'm just one of the humble people who've picked it up along the way because i really

00:14:34.120 feel that's important for our young generation well and especially we're going to talk about

00:14:39.920 we're going to talk all about her but she was a very young person herself so I think to show

00:14:44.940 the strength and the power of a young woman she's such a an example of that oh that's for sure so

00:14:52.760 my first question for you just to set the scene for everybody so we're talking about 1715 around

00:15:00.260 then and so what was the relationship at that time between the dene the cree the inuit and the

00:15:06.780 hudson's bay company at that time okay well her story began in 1713 however the relationship

00:15:13.960 between the first nations people as we call them now the cree the dene and the inuit the inuit to

00:15:21.700 the north the dene kind of in the middle and the cree in the south so there were tribal wars at one 0.99

00:15:29.560 time, even with the Dene as well, and the Inuit and the Cree, and it's all for territorial 0.90

00:15:36.260 wars, right?

00:15:37.580 Inter-tribal territorial wars, and also vying to trade with Hudson Bay.

00:15:45.200 So people were fighting, pushing each other out of the way.

00:15:49.860 The Dene were more or less sandwiched in the middle.

00:15:53.340 The Cree to the, the Inuit to the north and the Cree to the south.

00:15:56.460 And so Tanelda, she's from the Dene people. Can you explain the various names? We just said before we started recording, you said there's various names that she was known by.

00:16:07.440 Different people from different regions have a say about her.

00:16:12.020 There are many people in different regions who want to take ownership of her.

00:16:15.540 However, just based on the research and the land, the locations and coordinates,

00:16:23.840 took me to near the shores of Hudson Bay, north and west of that.

00:16:29.480 So we call her, well, first of all, the elders.

00:16:33.840 my father called her

00:16:36.200 which means

00:16:38.520 our grandmother

00:16:39.620 elders say it is

00:16:42.400 because of her that they are still around

00:16:44.580 today so we go

00:16:46.200 which is drops of sand

00:16:48.620 some say

00:16:49.900 something to do

00:16:52.980 with the marten

00:16:53.860 the animal

00:16:54.740 there's different names 0.93

00:16:56.660 the slave woman peacemaker 1.00

00:16:59.240 she 0.89

00:16:59.960 became to be known as a slave woman 0.97

00:17:03.280 because she was abducted, right?

00:17:05.920 So those are the different names that people have of her in the North,

00:17:10.120 I think, towards Northwest Territories.

00:17:13.940 Based on some of my books that I've read, they did call her the state woman.

00:17:18.820 The woman in red is also what she's called.

00:17:22.580 So she comes with a lot of names.

00:17:26.080 Can you explain to everyone where you've been able to learn about her from?

00:17:30.340 There's the journals from the HBC, but then there's also the oral storytelling, right?

00:17:35.980 Yes, I began to hear about her when I was quite young, five or six years old.

00:17:41.820 My late parents and my grandparents talked about her, told stories about her.

00:17:47.120 And it's been in the oral history for, I think, 307 years now.

00:17:52.980 And that's where I began to hear about her.

00:17:55.560 and years later in I didn't think I learned about in high school but when I started university then

00:18:02.880 I really began to learn about her through the books but it's really limited and through the

00:18:08.420 years I've been learning a lot about her googling her collecting stories about her so first of all

00:18:15.040 through oral history and then through the university books any books that I can get my

00:18:21.980 hand on about her and that's where i really appreciate you coming on the podcast because

00:18:26.740 a lot of i've been trying to learn about her as well myself and it's it's limited in terms of what

00:18:32.360 i was able to find so much of it and we learned from the hbc records but when i came across your

00:18:38.400 writing about the oral histories that that really answered so many questions i had to understand more

00:18:43.120 about who she was and what her life was like in the archives there's a lot because the company

00:18:48.640 men had to write journals right they talked about her they you know like you and I are people

00:18:53.900 writing in diaries and that's what they did so I always felt that the oral component was never

00:19:01.580 there so I wrote that article to combine both hey there's more than just the archives there's a rich

00:19:07.400 oral history and the oral history is just so unique it's told in a way that sometimes it's

00:19:17.280 comical sometimes, it

00:19:19.180 just kind of makes a

00:19:21.240 young child listening to an elder

00:19:23.140 the mind just starts to race

00:19:25.080 and how they, when elders tell

00:19:27.280 stories, their stories are animated

00:19:29.180 they set the picture

00:19:31.240 for you and you just develop

00:19:33.480 that in your mind and

00:19:35.080 it's just so unique

00:19:36.540 and that's why I wanted to

00:19:39.140 I tell a lot of

00:19:41.360 stories about her too

00:19:42.300 I'm going to go forward and write

00:19:45.220 a book in my words about her

00:19:47.280 And I think it's something that a lot of people, we need to instill in the minds of Canadians as well, like who she was, because she's not really known.

00:19:56.760 That's why I was so happy to find you writing about it.

00:19:58.520 I'm excited to hear you're going to write a book because I do think her story is so important to the history of the Dene, but also to the history of Canadian history.

00:20:08.220 It's a story more people should know about.

00:20:10.140 That's for sure.

00:20:11.640 So if we're looking at what we know about her,

00:20:14.700 so the story that I've encountered really begins when, as a young girl,

00:20:19.640 she was captured by the Cree.

00:20:22.220 Can you explain how that happened or what you know about why she was captured?

00:20:27.040 As I said earlier, they had inter-tribal wars and what they would do when they would raid camps. 0.80

00:20:33.680 When the Dene people raided, for instance, a Cree or Inuit camp, there was no mercy. 0.99

00:20:40.020 They just totally wiped out the whole encampment. 1.00

00:20:45.920 For the Cree, they would do similar, but they abducted young girls, 0.99

00:20:53.060 especially if they were pleased into the eyes. 0.98

00:20:56.580 So you can tell this young woman was beautiful.

00:21:00.580 So she was captured in 1713 up around Hudson Bay Area,

00:21:06.780 a little to northwest called Chesterfield Inlet.

00:21:10.020 in that area. Now it's called Arviet, on the shores of Hudson Bay. So at the time, what was

00:21:18.720 happening, as most Dene families would do, they were hunting, they were on a hunting party.

00:21:25.420 So she was believed to be about 13 or 14 years old when this abduction happened. So since she

00:21:31.860 was abducted she was held in captivity for about a year so just up hunting um doing the usual thing

00:21:41.080 and and then this happened and she wasn't there were other people were captured at the same time

00:21:47.240 there's at least one other young woman who was there as well right yes so i believe the way she

00:21:53.060 said it was her cousin and a friend as well so two at the time that i know of and what do you know

00:22:00.660 about that year or so that she spent in captivity that part is not really documented from the books

00:22:10.480 of the Hudson Bay archives just when she came to York's factory but I know according to James

00:22:18.660 Houston's book who really studied the archives of the Hudson Bay and formulated a photo uh

00:22:26.520 mental snapshot of what her life was like any life is a slave is is is not usually good both

00:22:38.440 her friend and her cousin were sexually abused physically abused and they were just there to

00:22:46.980 work very hard looking after the the tent that they lived in they did a lot of physical work

00:22:55.200 They did a lot of fishing and hunting and gathering.

00:22:58.220 They also made snowshoes. 0.99

00:23:01.020 Dene women and Kui women in which are really, really good at making warm clothing made out of animals first. 1.00

00:23:09.720 So their roles were to do that. 1.00

00:23:11.720 And how he managed to keep them was to tie the girls to his feet.

00:23:18.760 So when they tried to escape, he would know long enough of a little intertwined that he had for them to go outside and relieve themselves.

00:23:29.920 But not very good. They're hungry. Worked very, very hard.

00:23:35.640 And you just mentioned as well, this is kind of, she was first, when she was discovered by the HBC people,

00:23:42.180 was she had escaped from the Cree

00:23:44.080 and then she lived on her,

00:23:46.740 not on her own, I guess her friend is with her

00:23:48.400 for most of it, but just in the wild

00:23:50.140 for a very long time.

00:23:52.160 Was it one year

00:23:53.800 that she lived after the escape?

00:23:57.580 She lived

00:23:58.260 about a year after that,

00:24:00.040 but they know the land,

00:24:02.200 they know the way of the animals,

00:24:03.500 they know just very

00:24:05.320 in tune with their landscape

00:24:07.060 and the environment and their denny land

00:24:09.420 that they have the capability

00:24:11.260 ability to survive in that environment but it was about um a year that they were held in

00:24:18.240 captivity um i think almost a year and then they escaped do you know anything about how

00:24:26.080 they escaped or we can just imagine she was clever she found a way she knew that she wanted

00:24:33.840 to escape for quite a while and they were planning that but again this is where the two versions were

00:24:40.360 according to the archives

00:24:43.760 their capture was at a tribal meeting

00:24:47.520 and that's when they finally escaped

00:24:49.640 according to the Dene oral history

00:24:53.260 their version of it was

00:24:55.760 when the captor and the Cree

00:24:58.980 were going to Hudson Bay to trade

00:25:02.340 she snuck behind them

00:25:05.100 and was following them along

00:25:07.720 And she looked into what she said, which is what we call Churchill today or a stone house.

00:25:17.340 They looked in and they saw some strange people, which is their first encounter of people.

00:25:25.000 And but I'm going to be talking about this part a little later, her first experience with the Europeans.

00:25:31.360 so yeah it took uh it took about a year for for them to formulate their escape so and just to

00:25:39.740 to live in that environment um they were hungry all the time they were near starving they actually

00:25:46.440 most likely went through the ice a few times and i think this is this would have been maybe

00:25:52.440 in the cold of winter towards the spring because it was in the spring when they stumbled upon the

00:25:58.900 goose hunters at 10 trillings near the Nelson River.

00:26:02.440 Her friend perished along the way just to come to their starvation.

00:26:08.500 So she was near death as well.

00:26:11.820 And so it was at this point where she was near death that she first encountered.

00:26:16.820 It was people goose hunting for the HBC.

00:26:19.940 Were those white men or those were Indigenous hunters?

00:26:24.600 They were both.

00:26:25.820 They were Europeans, I think, Totiné or Bonn-Lay.

00:26:29.960 They used the word Bonn-Lay in Dena means French.

00:26:33.840 At that time, too, the French and the English people were fighting as well.

00:26:40.780 So at that time when this happened, it was the English people that were at the fort

00:26:48.220 when she came upon them with the Cree hunters.

00:26:52.640 and she, like I said earlier, she was starving.

00:26:56.700 Her clothing was really, really in rough shape

00:27:00.040 and someone noticed they thought maybe it was an animal

00:27:04.020 or then they realized it was a human.

00:27:07.420 So they picked her up and they took her to York factory now,

00:27:11.980 York Fort, as we know today.

00:27:15.400 And they faced a lot of dangers, rivers and lots of storms

00:27:19.280 and trying to survive in the elements of Northern Canada.

00:27:24.300 I keep thinking about that too,

00:27:26.380 just the Northern Canada in the winter and even in the spring,

00:27:31.060 just the weather and everything

00:27:33.660 and what a challenge that would be to someone in her situation

00:27:36.340 who is starving, whose clothes are falling apart.

00:27:40.440 So it's such luck that she was found when she was

00:27:44.120 and then the people who found her took her in to help her.

00:27:47.780 Yeah, like in today's age, I'm a hunter.

00:27:50.880 I hunt caribou, and we've hunted in the dead cold of winter.

00:27:55.940 And for me, when I'm out on the hunting trail, I often think about her.

00:28:00.800 They had no snowmobiles.

00:28:02.260 They had no tobogans.

00:28:03.380 They had no dogs at the time.

00:28:05.660 And how did she ever survive the elements?

00:28:09.260 Because it is cold out there.

00:28:12.060 You really have to know the land.

00:28:15.060 you have to know the wind you have to know all aspects of elements to to survive and keep in

00:28:22.580 mind that they weren't wearing clothes like you and I wear today they were made from animal furs

00:28:29.500 that they used that's part of where I just there's so much remarkable about her story but just

00:28:36.000 the knowledge like you just said that she would have had to know about the land and the wind

00:28:40.040 just to survive through those months on her own largely without the sorts of winter clothes we

00:28:45.680 would have right now or electricity or yeah and when i think about her when she lost her family

00:28:53.400 of course in the raid and being held captive and her friend who perished with her and a little

00:29:01.880 ceremony she did for her and how she felt but it's the will that she had within her that she had to

00:29:09.640 survive it's just a tremendous awesome story so we've reached the point now so she's been found

00:29:17.720 she's been saved really she's been rescued by people who are able to take her to a structure

00:29:23.320 where she can be indoors she can be fed and so this is her first interaction with with the 0.99

00:29:29.160 Europeans well everything was strange for her keep in mind she knew kree already right she 0.75

00:29:35.040 Kun had to understand Cree. 0.93

00:29:39.920 So when she was taken into York for it,

00:29:44.300 Governor James Knight,

00:29:46.880 she was presented to him

00:29:49.360 and was trying to figure out who she was

00:29:51.600 because she was in a real state at the time.

00:29:55.200 She was starving and she wasn't properly clothed.

00:29:58.000 And when she spoke, she spoke in Cree and also in Dene.

00:30:02.840 So the first thing, the way we know Hudson Bay is, oh good, she's going to be an asset for me.

00:30:09.340 So we're going to bring her back to life and we're going to make good use of her. 1.00

00:30:16.480 But she was a feisty little woman, five foot nothing. 0.94

00:30:20.820 She could stand up to any now and to figure this out. 0.92

00:30:26.440 300 years ago, it was a man's world.

00:30:29.320 and for her to rise above that

00:30:32.020 to stand against any man 0.97

00:30:33.900 a young woman 1.00

00:30:36.160 who was five foot nothing 1.00

00:30:37.180 I mean just imagine that 1.00

00:30:39.260 when she got to the

00:30:42.060 fort there

00:30:42.720 they kind of cleaned her up

00:30:45.340 and told stories

00:30:46.840 and James Knight

00:30:49.700 was more interested in her stories

00:30:51.340 because she talked about gold and copper

00:30:53.220 on her land

00:30:54.300 so all these tales that he was

00:30:57.600 interested in

00:30:59.320 And this is where she began to formulate the idea,

00:31:04.320 my people can have access to this, the Dene people.

00:31:08.540 And then going back to the question about first contact

00:31:12.480 between the French and the English,

00:31:15.460 the English, they were both fighting for the trading territory as well

00:31:19.540 and during competition in Hudson Bay too.

00:31:22.520 And at the time that she came upon Hudson Bay with the English,

00:31:27.580 The French were more or less told to leave at the time.

00:31:32.700 So, and according to my father, I never get tired of my parents telling me the story of her first contact with Europeans, more or less white people.

00:31:46.500 She was so astonished because she said when they were looking,

00:31:54.980 so either James Knight or William Stewart, one of them, must have had blue eyes.

00:32:01.680 Because she said they almost scared her.

00:32:05.680 It looked like there were eagles looking at me, and they were so deathly pale.

00:32:11.240 I thought they lacked blood or they were really hungry. 0.77

00:32:15.600 And so what she did was, because in her worldview at the time, her reality and her space, the Dene people had no guns or ammunition.

00:32:31.460 So she was telling the governor, saying the Cree people are killing my people.

00:32:38.220 You hear these loud icicles break and my people drop dead.

00:32:43.180 And she is describing the musket gun, so the sound of the gunshot is what she was.

00:32:55.520 And it was a whole new world for her.

00:33:00.460 So the goal of the Hudson Bear James Knight was for her to learn English, because she spoke Hebrew already.

00:33:08.800 and they had this plan for her to do this piece of journey. 0.54

00:33:16.960 And so this part of what she saw there was the tools that the Europeans had

00:33:21.120 that they had been sharing with the Cree and she saw,

00:33:23.380 oh, these could be helpful for the Dene.

00:33:25.440 Yeah, well, she was in captivity. 1.00

00:33:27.880 She noticed the Cree women were using pots and knives and utensils 1.00

00:33:31.940 and it seemed, well, when she saw that their lives were easier

00:33:37.620 And their captor also had these tools that they could use.

00:33:42.600 And it was strange for them, but it was easier for them to work with.

00:33:48.580 And what she also wanted for her people was peace and also to live in peace and to make their lives easier.

00:33:56.440 So, you know, this is where I think easier from what may be from escaping or hiding all the time and inter-tribal wars.

00:34:05.380 But her goal was to make their lives easier, to make it easier for the hunters, for the guns, and also for the Dene women.

00:34:16.560 And that's all she started formulating when she was held in captivity, and she saw that at the Hudson Bay as well. 0.92

00:34:24.580 So the Dene people had no guns. They used spears. They were made by wood and carved arrowheads to hunt. 0.89

00:34:35.380 So the Cree talked about how they were deathly afraid of the Dene and likewise the Dene to the Cree because they had this magic thing that cracked and people died. 0.70

00:34:49.220 However, when you think about it, you have to load it up, right? 0.95

00:34:53.020 but the creed people said well i better hurry up because i'll be dead in a minute because they're

00:34:58.420 the way they hunted they were very powerful people and deadly accurate in their target

00:35:04.900 with these spears so i just thought it was such an interesting concept how

00:35:09.900 but they were in an element where they feared each other so much i really appreciate what how

00:35:19.980 you've described it and what i've read about her is that she really wanted to to better the life

00:35:24.800 for all of her people even while she was in captivity she was seeing these things and she

00:35:29.460 thought not just how can i escape but how can i escape and bring this technology back how can i

00:35:35.280 help other people i think that's very admirable too and then just and then when you said that

00:35:42.100 it's the will to live to make sure at some point her people's lives are going to be easier

00:35:48.820 yeah it's that sort of community that sort of sense of selflessness i find that so admirable

00:35:55.540 so she saw that there were these tools here she's at she's at fort york um york factory

00:36:02.160 with hbc they think okay if we teach her english she can help us with these peace talks as a

00:36:08.660 translator and she does she learns english she's clearly very good at picking up languages

00:36:13.540 and you read into the book that she's really feisty right just a very determined young person

00:36:19.720 very smart very smart so so much about her is already so just so impressive and she's such

00:36:27.140 like you said she's five foot tall tiny person at this point she's what 15 16 years old yes

00:36:34.180 about 15 between 15 and 16 with such a strength of character it's so impressive

00:36:40.920 she's a nurse back to health

00:36:43.560 by the company

00:36:44.960 and there's a pretty woman 1.00

00:36:46.080 she kind of looked after her 0.99

00:36:48.840 and the governor

00:36:50.160 and this is the story that my

00:36:52.380 my late parents and elders told me

00:36:55.000 was okay 0.98

00:36:55.620 tell her to go find herself something 1.00

00:36:58.820 a cloth so we can make 1.00

00:37:01.020 garments for her

00:37:02.020 so she chose red

00:37:04.160 because she thought

00:37:07.040 okay red

00:37:08.780 looks like blood right

00:37:10.740 she said when i start looking for my people i'm going to say to them i'm wearing red i am

00:37:17.880 i'm here looking for you and she said i want my people to to see me from a long distance

00:37:25.280 you know that mirage you see on the cold day or on the hot day over the lake and it looks like the

00:37:32.300 even the islands are lifting up right and she explained that to when i'm running across the

00:37:39.040 big lake i want them to see this blob of red going and maybe they'll understand that it's me

00:37:46.260 but at the same time i'm going to call out to them and this is the part of the history that's

00:37:51.480 not written down and they were hard to find and she was in dene country so she knew and and this

00:37:59.340 is in between the the war the wars inter-tribal wars so the dene were really in constant hiding

00:38:07.080 Well, and this brings us to the peace mission.

00:38:11.600 When she had picked up some more English, then she was brought with them to try and find the Dene. 0.74

00:38:18.500 Is that correct? 0.93

00:38:19.620 To try and explain, to try and find peace so they could work together with the HBC.

00:38:25.400 And now we're just going to take a break for a word from our sponsors.

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00:39:03.680 Kingdoms were reduced to cinders, and armies scattered like bones in the dust.

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00:40:00.400 Welcome to the Realms of Peril and Glory.

00:40:05.640 Explore the mechanically magical vistas of Vale,

00:40:09.800 the paranormal mysteries of liminal London,

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00:40:26.780 Search Realms of Peril and Glory to find out more.

00:40:30.400 I'm Anne Foster, and I have never watched the show Spartacus, Blood, and Sand.

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00:40:46.560 This season, we are discussing Spartacus, Blood, and Sand.

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00:40:58.800 And we're back.

00:40:59.860 Yes, Governor James Knight delegated William Stewart to lead this expedition, but she just took over.

00:41:08.200 According to the archives, this is when the expedition was brueling.

00:41:14.340 It's a walk-in. They walked about 600 miles.

00:41:18.440 So this paced journey started early morning of June 27th, and it was almost a year when they came back, May 5th, 1716.

00:41:29.180 But along the journey, they were faced with many challenges, again, starvation, again, the elements, and the reluctance of the Cree to move any further when they knew they were in Dene territory.

00:41:45.660 So as they were going along in today, it would be around the mountain. 0.78

00:41:53.280 So when they came to that area, they came upon a camp of nine Dene that were massacred, and William Stewart thought, and this is according to all the books that I've read, okay, this is the end of the peace journey.

00:42:11.360 This is the end of it because the group of Cree that were ahead massacred this camp, and she relayed the grips, part of her family as well.

00:42:22.580 So there was lots of fear at that time.

00:42:27.880 So they thought, okay, this is the end.

00:42:30.120 We're not going to go any further.

00:42:34.040 So William Stewart was willing to turn back. 1.00

00:42:40.120 And the Kree said, we're not going anywhere. 1.00

00:42:42.580 He will not talk us to go any further because we're going to be killed for sure. 1.00

00:42:46.920 so this is when this feisty little woman girl said can you give me 10 days just 10 days

00:42:57.020 i'll go by myself and i'm going to go find my people by 10 days i will be back did you hear

00:43:04.040 that i will be back she didn't say i may be back but they doubted her that this wasn't going to

00:43:10.440 happen so um just give me that time and she was so persuasive and and and they they agreed and

00:43:17.680 they relented and said okay we're going to give you 10 days no more after 10 days we're leaving

00:43:22.900 we're heading south because we were in territory that we're really uncomfortable with so so and

00:43:30.540 this is where the danae oral history kicks in because that part is not documented remember

00:43:37.660 she's journeyed by herself so and she puts on her red her garment and she she goes out and she

00:43:46.380 knows her area because then people know the landscape they know the stars the cosmology

00:43:52.440 they know all that the the wind and the direction and or navigation um they've done that for

00:44:00.480 hundreds of years, so she knew the people in the area.

00:44:05.720 And as she's going along, she had her garment on.

00:44:10.120 She's by herself on snowshoes, just her.

00:44:13.100 So she didn't stop and pretend like we would today.

00:44:18.600 She was totally on her own in the winter.

00:44:23.100 And as she's going along, she said,

00:44:25.140 If anybody can hear me, can you hear me?

00:44:31.120 I am looking for you.

00:44:34.580 I have some gifts for you.

00:44:36.980 It'll make your life easier if you could hear me, please.

00:44:42.360 We're negotiating peace so we don't have to live in fear.

00:44:46.120 And she kept saying that over and over and over again.

00:44:49.360 So at some point, someone heard them.

00:44:52.500 And again, this is stories from the elders, heard them.

00:44:55.140 And they said, we keep hearing someone calling out.

00:44:59.480 It was two young men.

00:45:00.880 There were runners to go ahead or to go back.

00:45:04.800 Strong young men were really fast.

00:45:06.980 They would run ahead if they were first in danger.

00:45:10.660 So, and these two runners came back to the camp and said,

00:45:15.420 we keep hearing this woman and saying she's, I know her, and we don't.

00:45:20.800 She doesn't see us, but we've seen her.

00:45:23.240 and she's calling out saying i'm looking for my people if you could hear me what do we do

00:45:27.600 um the elder said oh my god that's i know we lost her a few years ago and she's still alive

00:45:35.040 so this cat knew her as well and so the young guys were instructed to go back where they may

00:45:46.060 have heard her because there would be a certain trail i mean trails aren't everywhere and that's

00:45:51.520 certain trail that they travel but mind you at the time of war you'd have to hide your tracks

00:45:57.140 because you don't you don't want other people to find your tracks because they can

00:46:01.000 source each other out the creed and then enter the english so they were instructed okay go back

00:46:06.620 sit under a drift so when the snow drifts it's huge right in some areas so they were told to

00:46:15.520 sit there and wait for her do not say anything so they did that and they were waiting and finally

00:46:21.600 they heard her again i'm looking for you i have some stuff to make your life easier

00:46:29.920 please don't be afraid i'm here to help you so as she got closer these two young men just kind of

00:46:39.260 jumped up in front of her because they were told who she was already so and it really frightened

00:46:45.480 her because you know your own people don't jump up in front of you and just out of nowhere so she

00:46:52.900 kind of uh fainted and when she came to when she came to she felt better she told him what she was

00:47:03.400 doing i'm here looking for my people i'm looking for peace i'm looking to make your life easier

00:47:08.460 I don't want no more people, my people dying.

00:47:12.520 Can we live in peace?

00:47:13.940 That's all I want.

00:47:14.820 So they took her back to the camp.

00:47:17.380 So because she's been walking by now maybe five days

00:47:21.860 and calling out her people, she lost her voice.

00:47:26.260 It was really hoarse.

00:47:27.860 And they asked, why is your voice hoarse?

00:47:30.380 Well, because I've been calling to my people

00:47:32.180 and I want my people to hear me.

00:47:34.280 She was so happy beside herself

00:47:36.180 that she was reunited with her family and friends.

00:47:40.200 She just cried and said, you know, I'm here to help you.

00:47:47.460 Please don't be afraid. Don't run.

00:47:50.100 So they were afraid, of course.

00:47:52.160 And she said, we have to make peace. 1.00

00:47:54.880 We have to make peace with the Kree. 1.00

00:47:57.140 So that was really uncomfortable for them because they're enemies, right? 1.00

00:48:03.140 so she managed to talk them into going back with them and she took back about a hundred of her

00:48:13.760 people and it took about five days to walk back so in the meantime the campus uh william stewart

00:48:22.080 and the cree were getting a little impatient especially the cree we have to get out of here

00:48:26.320 it's the 10th day she's not here this is in the morning they said we're gonna go and then

00:48:31.080 a steward said no no no just just hang on we'll wait just give me a couple more hours so and then

00:48:38.380 william and according according to the book it says i think he was in love with her and some

00:48:44.700 elders have said that as well but i don't know where that story goes so it was uh 10 days and

00:48:52.180 and right at the very last minute the creed were beginning to were beginning to um

00:48:59.380 sorry i get this way every time i tell a story at the very last minute it's epic

00:49:09.180 very last moment lo and behold over the hill she comes and uh william stewart said i knew it

00:49:17.920 i knew it i trust her i know i know i knew she was going to do this so for me it's a moment in

00:49:24.120 history and history for the dene and history for hits and bane history for powerful woman in the

00:49:30.740 world that this young five foot nothing brave girl brings her people so with the timing of 1.00

00:49:41.760 legendary heroes uh she just made her appearance just like that like in the movies right i know 1.00

00:49:49.420 that's what i was thinking she said 10 days and they thought oh she's not coming and then at the

00:49:53.660 last minute here she is yeah here she is and a few of the books you know in our terrain up north

00:50:01.980 the trees are small the uh down south the trees are taller up north so they knew like cam flosh

00:50:11.040 right she said well we're you said you bring your people they're here with me and uh she called out

00:50:18.560 to them can you guys come out come out of the trees and they were so amazed out of the forest 0.98

00:50:25.520 came the denny people to say you know they know how to hide right and uh and she and that's that's

00:50:34.440 how she got her people there and sure enough the 10 days um i know 307 years ago or or more

00:50:45.100 or, you know, that determination, the will to live, the will for peace,

00:50:51.900 the will, you know, to create, you know, what she did.

00:50:58.580 It's just really astounding for me when I think about it, when the elders tell me.

00:51:04.800 And I get tired of hearing about her, and every time I talk about the epic moments, I get that way.

00:51:13.000 So I have passion for it, yes.

00:51:15.100 Well, and I love that she's such a hero for, and her goal is peace, because often in many cultures, warriors are celebrated, people who are very successful at fighting.

00:51:26.720 But she's a hero for peace. And this story just shows that those stories are just as impressive.

00:51:33.080 I love it when you said hero for peace.

00:51:35.520 So she's got everybody together. And then there's the actual peace talks. And what can you tell us about how that went?

00:51:42.560 Just based on the elders and based on the archives,

00:51:46.440 it's a setup where they're going to do peace talks with the peace pipe.

00:51:51.080 And she was really persuasive.

00:51:52.940 You know, she could overpower anyone,

00:51:55.280 despite her demeanor, whether it's her people or the Cree,

00:51:58.580 whether it's William Stewart.

00:52:00.280 And then the picture is that both groups are really afraid of each other, right?

00:52:04.860 They fear each other. 0.82

00:52:06.840 And there were tense Mormons.

00:52:08.000 and what she does is that they're um they have this peace talk they're sitting down they have

00:52:13.020 peace pipes and then she felt her people were not responding so she just started to get a little

00:52:19.780 angry she started to berate her people and she kept saying i want peace i don't want any of you

00:52:25.860 to die anymore and this is a quote that i really like and i'm just going to repeat it quote do you

00:52:33.080 want to live like hunted rabbits? Do you want the constant threat of war? She was enraged and

00:52:39.520 frustrated because no one was making the first move. She just wanted peace. Penelter stamped

00:52:45.540 her feet in disgust. Whirling around, she ran back, grabbed the woman by the coats and pulled 1.00

00:52:51.600 them out of the trees into the clear. Do you want war or peace? She pleaded. Do you want sharp knives 0.66

00:52:58.140 and guns that mean your children will never go hungry again this is from book so end quote so

00:53:05.380 she she really wanted that and she made it clear that it that was her mission she just because she

00:53:14.880 lived with the trees with help captives she lived with them at the forge the best thing for everyone

00:53:21.200 was for peace not only for commercialism but for peace and she would have been probably the only

00:53:27.580 person there who had lived in all three worlds and who knew all those languages so she had a

00:53:33.640 different perspective as well i think oh she did she knew the ways of her people she knew the ways

00:53:39.780 of her decree because she you know she lived with them for about a year and then she was at the

00:53:46.360 as well she learned the ways of the europeans there as well so she had the different perspectives

00:53:54.440 of each group

00:53:56.120 and she took advantage of her

00:53:58.560 of all that

00:54:00.400 to her benefit and for her people

00:54:03.160 and she must have seen

00:54:05.000 also how she could

00:54:07.000 imagine these groups working in peace

00:54:08.780 she would have seen what was

00:54:09.940 what they had in common, how this could work

00:54:12.640 and that's maybe part of where her

00:54:14.700 determination came from, she knew that this was

00:54:16.940 possible

00:54:17.480 and it was possible

00:54:21.040 she was going to make it work

00:54:22.980 no matter what 0.67

00:54:24.440 could have stood up to the Cree and William Wallace stood up to William Stewart many times

00:54:30.760 and James Knight I think he berated her once but she still stood her ground and then what the end

00:54:37.400 result of this was what she wanted like the the peace talks were successful right it was

00:54:43.060 successful yes as well the goal of Hudson Bay was I know people are going to trade there without

00:54:51.320 fearing for their lives and the Hudson Bay of course you know commercialism capitalism you know

00:54:57.320 they wanted all the first traded at their fort right and then this also for her people for the

00:55:03.940 Dene the having that relationship between them and the HBC this would also mean income and it

00:55:11.980 would improve the way of life of them as well right yeah for sure yes but then I made a statement

00:55:18.660 earlier about from what right it was a way of life for thousands of years for them so um bringing

00:55:25.620 her people out of out of that into commercialism you know that's the beginning the change of life

00:55:34.400 for the uh their lives for the denny and so with the success of this mission and this is where

00:55:42.020 the story gets sad but because she does get sick but what was her next mission going to be

00:55:50.220 now that she had proven herself there was plans for her to do more of this sort of work wasn't

00:55:54.880 there there was plans for her to go further she did talk about gold and copper right she talked

00:56:01.460 about that so James Knight formulated thinking that okay we're gonna create another expedition

00:56:07.900 to go to go further north for further north and west so this would be towards the copper mine so

00:56:16.020 it does what she talked about and samuel hearn if you read his books his third attempt he finally

00:56:22.080 got there so that's like about 80 years later so in between the talking and preparing for this

00:56:30.800 expedition she caught the ship came in and she got she got sick something her body couldn't handle

00:56:38.680 whatever it was European ailment of some kind and she just her body just could not handle

00:56:45.320 handle it so she was sick for about two days and it was a sad day at Fort York with James Knight

00:56:53.920 and William Stewart when she passed away.

00:56:57.040 It was February 5th, 1717.

00:57:00.980 I was just going to say,

00:57:02.300 and they wrote about how devastated they were to lose her.

00:57:05.900 It's still in many quotes, in many books,

00:57:08.260 they were all devastated.

00:57:09.640 Even on her sick bed,

00:57:11.100 she took a young lad and taught him Denny

00:57:17.300 and taught him Norton was the last name.

00:57:20.720 And he was instrumental with Samuel Hearn as well to go further, to go on this expedition, what to expect, what to do on her deathbed.

00:57:31.860 She wanted to make sure this was done.

00:57:34.140 So he was so devastated that he wanted to, in her honor, build a fort in her name where her people can trade without fear.

00:57:46.920 So this is the fort in the York factory up in Churchill.

00:57:53.540 It's a museum now.

00:57:55.320 I've been there, have seen it.

00:57:56.940 So it's just awesome to think and look at that stone structure

00:58:00.980 and how she was instrumental with that.

00:58:04.520 And it was his gift in her name when she passed away

00:58:08.060 that he promised that something would be built in her honor.

00:58:13.980 I really appreciate that.

00:58:15.120 I love when people are commemorated in that way that is so appropriate for what their work was and for who they were.

00:58:23.980 So just to commemorate her and her importance to the trade and to the peace with that structure.

00:58:31.280 So I've been to Churchill, Manitoba a few times.

00:58:33.580 I've been to the fort.

00:58:34.740 I've been in the community as well.

00:58:37.460 So what I've done, it was in 2017, I think.

00:58:45.860 I told a little bit about it.

00:58:48.640 It was 300 years of her passing that I just wanted to find out who was commemorating her.

00:58:55.700 So I called Churchill, Manitoba, and they said I should phone Parks Canada there, York Court, or Patrick.

00:59:04.680 and said so I dialed that number it was December 18th about 4 30 4 45 before I was gonna go on

00:59:14.840 Christmas holidays so I phoned there and and I remember Mike with his name picked up and said

00:59:20.560 hi my name is Mike how are you and I had to talk faster explain myself I said I've done a research

00:59:27.580 I'm Denny from northern Saskatchewan I didn't make sure I find out what Churchill is doing to

00:59:33.900 commemorate an altar for 30 years of her memory being there and he said this oh my god oh my god

00:59:45.560 oh my god i said what he said just 10 minutes ago we had a meeting here at parks canada think and i

00:59:52.800 wonder if anybody out there dene would be interested in being a part of 300 year celebration or if

00:59:59.560 there's even any interest.

01:00:01.980 Exactly 10 minutes later, you call, he said.

01:00:05.240 She was guiding me.

01:00:07.880 So as a result, we planned the trip

01:00:11.540 and we brought many people there.

01:00:13.320 We had our drums.

01:00:14.320 We were outfitted in red.

01:00:18.220 And that happened in July.

01:00:20.440 We even had a little,

01:00:22.380 the students did a skit on her.

01:00:26.020 So when I was there in Churchill,

01:00:27.580 there was a little monument

01:00:29.840 or a cairn that's called

01:00:31.660 Way Out of the Way

01:00:33.960 and I thought 1.00

01:00:35.920 she shouldn't be out of the way

01:00:38.140 in trip trail, she should be right

01:00:39.700 in the middle

01:00:40.260 and there's one street

01:00:43.280 that's named after her 0.99

01:00:45.400 way is what it's called

01:00:47.600 so I got to know the people there

01:00:49.820 in the Sayizi Dene who were

01:00:51.440 traditionally from that area and we talked

01:00:53.840 and then

01:00:55.760 and I did

01:00:57.580 of course, said that, you know, she's

01:00:59.640 way up there. I don't think she should be.

01:01:01.480 I think we should bring her a little closer into

01:01:03.480 town. So I have a really good

01:01:05.480 relationship with Churchill.

01:01:07.440 And a couple of years ago,

01:01:09.380 they phoned me again

01:01:11.500 to say, would you like to come

01:01:13.560 to Churchill? We're going to rename

01:01:15.680 our park. It's called Hudson

01:01:17.520 Park, I think.

01:01:22.500 So, yeah,

01:01:23.540 Hudson Park. And we

01:01:25.380 want to change it to a final,

01:01:26.800 we still have that huge plaque when you came here and we want to move it there would you like to

01:01:34.620 come of course I didn't say anything for a couple of minutes I said I would love to

01:01:38.300 so they renamed that park after her so she's right in the center of Churchill yes that's

01:01:45.360 I love that she's being celebrated still today and I love that you've been her her champion

01:01:51.580 in this? There's just a few scholars as well who are working under who are Dene, but we talk back

01:01:58.660 and forth and we build each other up. And if anyone phones me about, can you tell me about

01:02:04.380 Hennels? I say, of course. What do you want to know? Like you did for me very graciously.

01:02:11.540 Yes. Can you explain, in your opinion, her importance to the Dene people? Like you mentioned

01:02:19.260 before one of the ways she's known as as our grandmother how is she how is she seen within

01:02:24.900 the dene community they have pocahontas they have cinderella kind of that concept uh just

01:02:33.360 i don't know whether it should be a hero or should be a legend people kind of debate questions like

01:02:40.800 that but for us we never really debate in our minds it's another you know we just it's someone

01:02:47.040 who just created a good life for us so by doing that we keep our memory alive in our oral

01:02:55.660 storytelling because it's in the minds of me and i pass it on to my children i'm never quiet about

01:03:01.700 her and and of course elders they're willing to talk um what we do february 5th to commemorate

01:03:10.780 her is we wear red we have storytelling take a day aside where we talk about her and it's picking

01:03:18.040 that momentum now um it wasn't really i just feel now it's starting to happen but we need to do we

01:03:24.460 need to do a lot a lot more well and i think what you how you've explained her importance as well

01:03:30.420 throughout the story is she by bringing the piece that really improved the quality of life for so

01:03:36.480 many people but then also introducing the tools like that is what allowed the denny people to 0.98

01:03:41.920 stop just hiding and to find a new way to live so that the community and the culture could continue

01:03:47.720 on the elders and many of the books that i've read one elder he's gone now about to say you know

01:03:55.420 says we we live our lives now because she saved us this little tiny girl

01:04:07.120 Yes, five foot nothing.

01:04:08.360 They even described her. 0.99

01:04:10.400 Yeah.

01:04:11.120 What she looked like.

01:04:12.120 There's no known picture.

01:04:14.220 I was told, I'm still looking into it,

01:04:16.580 that there may be a sketch of her in the Hudson Bay archives in London, England.

01:04:21.600 Okay.

01:04:22.620 There's no photograph.

01:04:23.440 So when they describe her, it's this five foot, long black hair,

01:04:29.620 doe-like eyes, high cheekbones, broad nose, full lips.

01:04:35.160 so i've tried to get little people to draw it for me i just feel it's just gonna get on i'm still

01:04:42.220 gonna do that because there's a description of her yes and beautiful beautiful and smart and

01:04:51.480 just resilient the surviving like she did so many things that being captured and then living on her 0.59

01:04:58.680 own everything yeah and then you're right like the impact she had and she died probably when

01:05:07.520 she was between 16 or 17 in her short life what she accomplished and that's what i think you

01:05:14.020 mentioned i forget if it was before i started recording or not but just sharing her story

01:05:17.940 with the young people and i think showing here's a young person and look what she did

01:05:21.580 yeah and so i think i know how you're going to answer this question but on a scale of zero to

01:05:29.980 10 how significant do you think she was to history okay why 10

01:05:36.280 i feel like exactly i was gonna say 10 plus yeah yeah

01:05:41.900 very significant she made history she was a brave young woman not only

01:05:49.140 against Hudson Bay or the elements that was on the land or the Cree.

01:05:55.600 She was very brave.

01:05:56.840 She just stood her ground.

01:05:57.920 I mean, can you imagine 300 years ago when men, you know, still ruled

01:06:06.020 and she just kind of came out of the oral history and the books of Hudson Bay, 0.51

01:06:12.900 Just this icy little lady who walks out of the realm of our history.

01:06:19.980 Remarkable young woman who exhibited and earned prestige in her role as a negotiator. 0.95

01:06:25.680 Very intelligent woman.

01:06:28.100 She demonstrated knowledge of the land.

01:06:30.820 She spoke linguistic abilities.

01:06:33.180 She spoke different languages.

01:06:36.340 Immense leadership skills by navigating this mission.

01:06:41.200 She's a peacemaker. 0.97

01:06:42.160 She was called a slave. 1.00

01:06:43.960 We changed her to a peacemaker now. 0.99

01:06:45.880 She's a businesswoman, negotiator,

01:06:47.920 Sagnalter, Sagnalter, Sagnalter, Martin Schenk,

01:06:52.600 or she comes from the Martin clan.

01:06:55.460 And we asked the question, why did she pick red?

01:06:59.120 So look at it now in 28, missing and murdered woman.

01:07:03.180 It's red.

01:07:04.560 You know, I just, I always get goosebumps when I see that

01:07:08.300 because that was happening.

01:07:09.160 missing and murdered women for many many many years and she just for whatever of her beauty

01:07:17.500 and her skills you know she was made to live i was thinking about that too when when we first

01:07:23.580 spoke and you mentioned her connection to the color red and i thought oh that yeah the connection

01:07:28.480 with the red dress for the missing and murdered indigenous women and the fact that she was

01:07:32.500 captured as well like this she's abducted yeah it's her story is so many connections to

01:07:38.680 to nowadays so it's i love what you've said about how she's getting momentum like the movement to

01:07:45.020 commemorate her and to remember her because i think it is so many parallels to today

01:07:49.940 beautiful story and my next submission is um i'd like to have her in the motion picture

01:07:57.340 I can see how it's going to start 0.96

01:08:00.580 see how it's going to end

01:08:02.280 it's such a

01:08:04.360 it would be such a great movie

01:08:06.120 just even the way you told it 0.90

01:08:07.460 her appearing at the last minute

01:08:09.620 on day 10 in her red coat

01:08:12.100 I mean I can imagine the music swells

01:08:14.860 oh my god

01:08:16.160 I'd get choked up again

01:08:18.260 I honestly

01:08:21.280 and I always get choked up at that point

01:08:24.420 I do

01:08:25.040 it's such a passion for me

01:08:27.340 Do you have any final thoughts you want to share about her or her story?

01:08:33.620 I think regarding her story is that we continue to keep her character going.

01:08:39.820 I know we will. I know we will.

01:08:42.080 But I also believe that more people need to understand

01:08:45.920 that there were people with immense leadership skills.

01:08:50.540 You know, a young woman 300 years ago,

01:08:53.960 the story about Hudson Bay

01:08:56.460 the story about Canada

01:08:57.860 you know

01:08:59.140 people need to know that

01:09:02.200 she had

01:09:03.000 she contributed a lot

01:09:05.760 into well Canada

01:09:08.360 the beginning of Canada

01:09:09.840 and she needs to be appreciated

01:09:11.840 people need to appreciate stories like that 1.00

01:09:14.480 there's women 1.00

01:09:15.300 even a young man from

01:09:18.280 Parks Canada wrote me a letter saying

01:09:20.400 I filled out this application

01:09:21.720 let's get it going 0.74

01:09:22.740 to have to have her name or her photo on a 10 10 dollar bill whatever but there's no photo of her

01:09:32.160 yeah yeah but yeah i think something like that just to commemorate and to celebrate

01:09:38.680 as as the peacemaker i think is such a powerful thing oh it is very powerful every time i talk

01:09:47.320 about it I just feel more empowered I'm really I'm so honored that you came on my podcast to

01:09:53.860 help share this story because there's people who are going to listen to this from there's

01:09:57.980 listeners in Canada but also all around the world and so now a bunch more people are going to know

01:10:02.600 about her story and I'm I could never have told it myself I needed to bring you on to share the

01:10:08.760 story yeah oh I appreciate that and I'm so happy you found that article but there's there'll be

01:10:15.040 more and i'll keep an eye out for those as well thank you so much for joining me well thank you

01:10:21.480 so i mentioned at the beginning that i and i'm so grateful that i just a search one day i came

01:10:32.980 across this paper that rosalie wrote about danelle dirt in i think 2022 as part of her phd program

01:10:41.160 that she was on at that time. And so that paper itself, I was able to see it and you can also

01:10:46.940 because it is available on the internet. You don't need to belong to a university to be able

01:10:52.080 to read it. And the link to that is included in the show notes. In that paper, there's also many

01:10:57.400 of Rosalie's references, which I'm also going to list in our show notes as well, because she's done

01:11:03.100 so much research on this topic and who better to explain further reading that other people can do

01:11:08.620 about the Nelder, this remarkable woman who I'm so glad and happy to be able to share her story

01:11:15.100 with everybody. Now you probably noticed when I was doing the interview that at the end I asked

01:11:20.600 Rosalie for her to help out with scoring the Nelder. If we were going to, I got her to weigh

01:11:26.840 in on the significance scale. For the women who we profile on this podcast, there's four different

01:11:31.980 categories in which we score them on the scandalousness scale. And I just didn't get 0.88

01:11:37.820 around to asking Rosalie for the other, the other category. So I'm going to grade them myself as I

01:11:42.940 think the scores she might've given. So the first category that we score people on is scandalous,

01:11:49.600 scandalousness. How scandalous were they seen in their lifetime? How scandalous are they seen now?

01:11:55.620 And I'm going to say a zero for Zanelder. I think she was a standup, upright, admirable person. 0.93

01:12:03.580 nothing she did was seen as scandalous maybe even if people who thought like oh you're you're

01:12:10.260 working to find peace you're working with the with hbc you work like even if people thought

01:12:16.900 that was scandalous at the time she talked them around to realizing that like no this is actually

01:12:21.140 what's best for everyone so i'm gonna say a zero for scandalous for her for scheminess which in

01:12:25.860 the like in the context of this podcast just means how smart how clever how resilient was this person

01:12:31.880 And I think this is a 10 out of 10 for an elder.

01:12:34.540 I think her ability to survive in a variety of circumstances that she found herself in,

01:12:39.900 like first being captured, being able to successfully escape,

01:12:42.820 then being able to survive on her own in the cold and the wilderness just really shows

01:12:47.920 she had good instincts of what to do and when.

01:12:51.240 And then her scheminess in a positive way really comes into play when she sees, 1.00

01:12:56.820 she noticed the tools that the Kree had. 0.87

01:12:59.060 she knows the tools that were on the HBC and thinking about ways that she, that could be to

01:13:03.480 the benefit of her community. And I mean, everything you just heard this episode, like

01:13:08.320 the way the peace talks that she took over like 10 out of 10 for scheminess. She knew what she 0.99

01:13:13.180 was doing. She was so smart. Her significance, Rosalie gave her 10 if, you know, more than 10

01:13:18.940 if possible. And then the final category on the scale for this podcast is the sexism bonus,

01:13:24.200 which is where we look at how much more could this person have accomplished if not for sexism

01:13:29.120 and I think like so many other people on this podcast the sexism she faced um is so interconnected

01:13:35.740 with other things like being from the Dene community um who were in constant conflict

01:13:42.100 with the Cree and then also the English were there too there is so much men really rule things as

01:13:49.340 rosalie said a couple things in this episode but she stood up to them and was respected

01:13:55.420 so that's sort of like sexism wasn't working against her there but at the same time she was

01:14:00.420 captured and taken into seemingly um sexual slavery which is a young man might not have

01:14:08.320 had that same situation so i'm gonna say for sexism bonus i'm gonna give i'm gonna say seven

01:14:16.340 so this gives her an overall score of 27 out of 40 which we've we've talked about so many people

01:14:24.280 on this podcast but she's she's up there with so many remarkable people and I'm just pleased to

01:14:29.180 have her on this list at all as just a person who's been on this podcast again you can probably

01:14:34.680 tell I'm I'm so happy that I was able to get Rosalie in the podcast to tell this story because

01:14:41.260 no one could have told it like her. And I'm really proud to be able to share the story with

01:14:47.800 all of you so you can all learn a bit about this important lesser known person from Canadian

01:14:53.860 history. And so next week, there's going to be another episode also taking place on technically

01:15:01.780 the North American continent. I guess I'll say like last week, we were talking about Matoka,

01:15:07.840 aka Pocahontas, who lived in what is now the United States. This week, we're talking about

01:15:13.080 the Nelder who lived in what is now Canada. And next week, you're going to be talking about people

01:15:16.940 who lived in what was then and is still known as Mexico. So that's next week's episode. And just to

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Vulgar History - June 03, 2025

Canadian History： Thanadelthur, the Peacemaker

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Transcript