00:05:34.180I went to a music conservatory for grad work.
00:05:37.820And, you know, I thought I knew, you know, everything, not everything there was to know about classical music, but I thought I knew the greats.
00:05:44.580You know, I could maybe go in jeopardy and do very, very well in that, you know, sphere.
00:05:49.260but um you know trying to merge my interest in music with my you know study of french literature
00:05:55.820was interesting um i really struggled to find true connection between the two you know french
00:06:01.540studies um francophone studies and music and so i was encouraged by you know um a former chair of
00:06:08.200department at a school i was at to you know do some investigation do some you know introspection
00:06:12.940try to find out you know what would interest your students and what would also be your passion and
00:06:17.780you know so i was sort of aimless for a while and happened to look up 18th century french composers
00:06:24.040and this name stuck out to me a name i didn't recognize i clicked on it and what happened next
00:06:31.060was you know a series of me being embarrassed you know which is hard to say but i just thought well
00:06:35.980i didn't ever hear about this man and it's not just like you know he's not just from what i'm
00:06:42.400seeing not just a you know a flash in the pan you know there is so much to know about him and so that
00:06:49.020just led me on this path of discovery trying to undo my ignorance and doing as much as I can to
00:06:54.880you know share his message of his his work with my students my colleagues with you know everyone
00:07:02.180who will listen I guess so that's what led me to Saint-Georges. I wanted to just let you know
00:07:07.940where I first heard about him as well, because it was also fairly random, which was where I live
00:07:15.100in Canada. So I attend the local symphony performances when I can. And just whatever
00:07:23.180they were performing, I go and I hear and I enjoy. And they were doing a concert of St. George's
00:07:28.040Music. And I thought, so just they advertised it. And I thought, oh, well, I've never heard of this
00:07:34.700composer and then i went and in the program there was maybe a page sort of explaining who he was and
00:07:40.080there was the the famous portrait of him and i thought this is such an interesting person why
00:07:46.060exactly and then the concert too um i really like the music like i love the music i thought i really
00:07:52.480i appreciate this man as a composer but his life story was so interesting exactly it's the two
00:07:58.280things you know it's the talent that's out there they you know they has all but but then just you
00:08:03.420know the mystery i would say surrounding his life and just the intrigue there it's you know
00:08:08.220so much to learn and so much to um explore so if uh you're you're here to kind of help us explain
00:08:15.140who he was i mean in a as as much as we can in an hour so what do we know about who his parents were
00:08:22.280and where he grew up he was born in guadeloupe so french uh territory uh colonized by the the french
00:09:39.760He could have been, you know, left on the plantation to, you know,
00:09:42.940follow the fate of his mom, which is to, you know, have a life of servitude
00:09:46.260and then eventually be earned freedom through some sort of benevolence
00:09:51.240on the path of the father or something else.
00:09:53.040But his dad seemed to place a lot of attention, you know, on him.
00:09:56.840Like, he seemed to want him to distinguish himself in different circles.
00:10:02.540So, and this would have been something that Saint-Georges' father learned or maybe saw a pattern for him by his own parents or maybe other men in the family.
00:10:13.560You know, if you were, you know, Boulogne, you're supposed to take care of your children, especially your sons.
00:10:21.260It could have been something, I don't know, spectacular or something sort of, I don't know, distinguishing that was already innate in young Saint-Georges that made his father want to, you know, pay attention to him and maybe invest in his future.
00:10:37.180It's also true that Nanon, his mother, you know, was very beautiful and was actually loved by Saint-Georges' father.
00:10:45.960So it was more than just a casual fling that brought about Saint-Georges. It was true emotion, true love, true affection for his mother, and eventually true affection for the son, Saint-Georges, that I think made the father want to invest in him.
00:11:00.600And so, you know, it's still unclear how he eventually became so talented in composition and music and violin, but we know that his father was a patient of the arts. He's someone who, you know, would have paid to have his son get the best training, right?
00:11:19.680Because if the son is supposed to distinguish himself in courtly circles, then, you know, through music and through maybe the combative arts would be two domains in which Saint-Georges should, you know, have some preparation.
00:11:37.680And so I think his father was very, very active
00:12:38.420You know, he must have been some sort of prodigy before because, you know, in his 20s, if he's already the rage in his 20s, he couldn't have started playing violin as a teenager.
00:12:52.860He would have been exposed to the art, to music, to composition, perhaps to, you know, that instrument at a much earlier age.
00:12:59.840And you're right. Some researchers are saying that he's probably an instructor from a different Caribbean country and that he probably spent time outside of Guadeloupe training before he got to France. Once again, I haven't found any documentation to prove that, but it stands to reason that if in his 20s he was so already established as a musician, he must have had prior training.
00:13:27.060So he was brought to France to attend school primarily, I think, right?
00:15:06.840And, of course, I think a lot of persons would have bet against Saint-Georges,0.95
00:15:10.920meaning that they thought he would lose, and apparently he did not, you know, which, of course, was a huge shock, you know, to have this young, unheard of person of color, who's sort of very mysterious, come to France and actually outdo one of the leading fencers.0.72
00:15:31.760And so because of that, it may be just as a symbolic gesture.
00:15:36.140The king, you know, granted him the title of chevalier, and it meant that he would be
00:15:41.240a part of the entourage to protect the king.
00:15:43.740So a part of the cavalry, those who are riding horses or who have weapons, can be called
00:15:49.000upon to protect the king and to protect the court.
00:15:53.000And so I think that was eventually what his father would have wanted for him.
00:15:56.760I'm like, this is, you know, exactly why I invested in Saint-Georges.
00:16:00.980My son was for him to distinguish himself this way.
00:16:03.620So his father must have been very proud.
00:16:06.040But that was only the beginning, as we know.
00:16:10.140He would eventually become, you know, well, they call him the Hercules, the French Hercules, pretty much,
00:16:16.380because of his fencing and his talent in other sports as well.
00:16:20.380It's just, you know, athleticism in general, he just dominated all those spheres and earned the title of Chevalier.
00:16:28.580It wasn't given to him because of, you know, his blood or the inheritance or sort of, you know, lineage that he had, but through his talent for fencing and other athletic feats.
00:16:39.720I was doing the research for this and reading just while the Paris Olympics were on, which was interesting because some of the places that they were having exhibitions were very ancient, you know, Versailles and things.
00:16:54.080But I was also thinking about when, in terms of St. George and his talent and his skill level, I was, so that made me think like, okay, he's like Simone Biles. He is so impressive beyond anything anyone has ever seen. And that just sort of framed it for me to, because I don't know about a fencing celebrity, but I know about Simone Biles. I know how people are.
00:17:17.340You're so right. You're so right. Because, I mean, I think it's hard for us to fathom how great he was, you know, because we think, OK, you know, in today's world, we have athletes, we have the Olympics, as you've said, we have, you know, different stars in different countries who are very popular, especially in tennis as well.
00:17:38.400You know, a lot of tennis stars who made millions of dollars just for showing up.
00:18:04.180He was, you know, exceptionally tremendous.
00:18:06.900And it's almost hard for us to understand that. But you're completely right. If you think of him as one of the first Simone Biles of France, I think that's starting to help us understand how great of a legacy he had.
00:18:20.940Well, and that's where it's interesting because he just in me reading kind of the biography, he sort of pivots to to turn more to his skill at music. And there was in the one book I read, it was imagining what what would the audience think if they show up to this symphony concert? And you see, wait, why is Simone Biles playing first violin? And then and then it turns out she is Yo-Yo Ma. She's also.
00:18:46.600i know right right exactly in this one being you have such such talent you know and it's true i
00:18:55.140mean something else to think about is that today we sort of separate um skill we say okay you have
00:19:01.700to choose either you're going to be in the performing arts or you're going to be an athlete
00:19:05.280you have to choose between i don't know um the sciences or the arts or humanities or whatever
00:19:10.440it is you know but at the time you know excellence had no bounds you know um it wasn't a sort of
00:19:18.320decision whether or not you'd excel in one thing and not the other but why not excel at everything
00:19:23.320that you everything that you touch everything that's maybe given to you and for saint george
00:19:27.740i don't think he had the option to not excel you know um which you can talk about later but um
00:19:32.560moving from fencing and adding the violin adding music seemed for him i think was you know um what
00:19:40.020he needed to do to survive, what he needed to do to continue his social climb in society.
00:19:46.500Actually, can we talk about that for a minute? So how he was accepted, his social climb,
00:19:50.840because he was accepted everywhere. Yeah, you know, yeah, this is true. And I think,
00:19:58.300I hope this doesn't sound as if I'm, you know, being reductive or I'm trying to
00:20:01.780injure or damage his legacy, but he was someone to bet on, as I said before,
00:20:06.340when you have Saint-Georges on your roster, on the program, if he's involved in your performance,
00:20:13.320if he's involved in whatever you're doing, you have bodies in the seats, you have people
00:20:17.780paying to see him, right? So he was someone who would guarantee success, financial success,
00:20:25.600right? And so, you know, people were clamoring to see him, clamoring to have him on their stage.
00:20:31.740And so it's true that that fame that he probably first earned as a fencer carried over to the domain of music and it opened many doors for him.
00:20:43.780He was invited into, you know, different spaces dominated by men, by women.
00:20:48.700You know, he was invited to, you know, take part in various concerts.
00:20:54.780He was a sort of, I don't know, maybe not pawn, but he was usually set to secure alliances between different courts, you know.
00:21:02.960So once again, he was so talented and, you know, he had his finger on the, he understood taste as well.
00:22:16.960you know um he was i've seen it mentioned maybe in three separate places in the archives that he
00:22:23.460had a certain uh maybe not violent but um violent vibrant temperament you know he was a lively
00:22:31.060person he wasn't a dog from the beginning of it you know and so not that he was he would serve
00:22:36.580drama or he would be you know um thrown to maybe temper tantrums not that but he was someone who
00:22:43.900maybe had a very active mind who take parts in different different discussions he would always
00:22:48.840have an opinion you know but to conquer that he was someone who really believed in friendship
00:22:54.800he had close friends and you know and a poem that was written um about him you know um when his
00:23:01.540i think you mentioned his famous portrait that you saw at this um this um concert you went to
00:23:07.440recently you know and that portrait um also had a poem you know written um um to actually um be
00:23:15.840published at the same time and the poem speaks about his love of his friends you know and that
00:23:21.720the love for his friend actually you know gave him a source of comfort and helped him to navigate
00:23:28.220you know what was a very you know i guess a difficult life for him right so um we have a
00:23:33.120very sweet kind loyal person and someone who is also extremely animated who you know sure from
00:23:42.260time to time would get into it maybe different scraps maybe he would say too much or maybe get
00:23:48.520involved in maybe the wrong company but his friends would always have to forgive him for that
00:23:53.560because he made up for it by being such a loyal and you know kind and loving person yeah so can
00:23:59.760Can you talk about, just in terms of, from what I was reading, sort of his first major musical group, I guess I'll call it, is the Concert des Amateurs.
00:24:13.740This is one of the groups, I think, that, you know, actually helped us climb in French society.
00:24:19.680And so the concert des amateurs was created by Gossack, who's a French, a well-established French composer, violinist, you know, someone who had tried before in the past to create his own orchestra.
00:24:36.180and you know he had you know to some success but you know nothing really long lasting and then what
00:24:42.600he did was that he knew about san george's talent he knew about san george's pull you know that he
00:24:50.520was able to attract crowds attract a different um audience goers he um dedicated um some music
00:24:58.740it was six violin concertos i think it was to san george to say these are written for you meaning
00:25:05.120that, you know, it would be an honor for you to perform
00:25:34.760So it was a mixture of people of different talents, you know, different levels of, I say, maybe skill.
00:25:43.800So there is Saint-Georges, who is probably one of the most skilled violinists, who's playing pieces that were written for him, right, by Gossack.
00:25:51.900And if he's on the stage, as we've said before, then you know you're in for, you know, something that is truly spectacular, truly exciting and passionate music.
00:26:02.820And so Gosset was thrilled to have Saint-Georges on the stage because you have, you know, at once a thriving orchestra with people coming to your performances, people paying to be there.
00:26:17.560Also, if you have music that is written for Saint-Georges, right, and music that's performed by Saint-Georges, it's true that different orchestras would pay to rent this music, rent the score, right?
00:26:29.640So it's a lot of income, a lot of, you know, revenue coming into this orchestra, thanks to Saint-Georges.
00:26:37.920So I believe, you know, it makes sense for him not just to be a visitor, maybe playing the first violin, being the chair, but eventually to become the leader of the concert, his amateur.
00:26:52.040If he's linked to your orchestra, your orchestra will be successful, which it was.
00:26:56.220And I think also, I just want to clarify for people that St. George was a working musician. He needed this income for himself as well. He wasn't independently wealthy.
00:27:08.720No, exactly. So, you know, he was also benefiting from this too. That's completely true. I mean, we say he couldn't drop any catches. I'll try to explain that.
00:27:19.780But I think it's a sports reference in baseball, maybe cricket.
00:27:25.140If you're in the outfield and there's a fly ball or something,
00:27:28.420if you catch it, it means that you get the personnel who's batting
00:27:31.980and your team moves closer to winning.
00:27:36.040So that was Saint-Georges in the outfield.
00:34:39.280You know, it seems, you know, clear as a no-brainer that Saint-Georges would become the new director.
00:34:45.980As it turns out, not everyone was, you know, happy with that, including three actresses.
00:34:52.620Yes, I think, well, a singer, a dancer, and, you know, someone else, you know, linked to the French opera,
00:34:58.760who wrote a letter to Marie Antoinette, and they're complaining, they're saying, you know,1.00
00:35:02.700we just don't see how we can be expected to take directions from a mulatto you know it's for them0.97
00:35:10.520it would be unheard of and i'm not there's an apology for what they said but you know in that1.00
00:35:16.100at that time you know in this 18th century how could the son of an enslaved african woman
00:35:22.980a mulatto a person of color be in a position of power to be superior to you know these three0.88
00:35:32.900women these three french women and so for them it was like well you know clearly this cannot happen0.99
00:35:38.640yeah and apparently because of that letter it did you know um cause a stir um in the in the court
00:35:46.980And Saint-Georges was not, well, his candidacy was not put through for the directorship of the opera.
00:35:54.680Other scholars will say that, you know, these actresses were acting out of fear, yes, that they thought that if Saint-Georges came in with his, you know, his spirit to break tradition, someone who did not really honor tradition as well.
00:36:09.480You know, he was known for breaking tradition, for being, to innovate in all parts of his life.
00:36:15.760They thought, well, if this new man comes in with his new ideas and his, you know, unorthodox ways of being, he's going to fire us.
00:36:26.080He's going to, we won't, we'll be out of work, you know?
00:36:28.980And so some are saying it's not just racism, but, you know, just their egos and their fear of not having, you know, a career.
00:36:37.180And so, again, it's not an apology for their behavior, but it is true that Saint-Georges was made aware of his race, I do think, in a very striking way, that in 1777, in the year when he lost one of his best friends, this happened, you know, he was, you know, must have been devastated.
00:36:56.420I mean, I'm sure that every day of his life, his race and his skin color would have affected what he was doing.
00:37:01.400But that was the first, it halted what was to seem like an inevitable progression of success for him.1.00
00:37:11.400I mean, and, you know, what would have happened?
00:37:13.900You know, had he become director of the Paris Opera, can you imagine to have the first person of color at that time to become, to occupy that huge position?
00:37:22.260And what would have become of the French opera, what would have become of, you know, French music, you know, it's, you know, he could have been much more of a, I don't know, his legacy, his prominence would have been much greater had he been allowed to occupy that space.
00:37:40.720But it's true that he didn't just go home and try, you know, he did eventually go on to write, you know, other operas that were, you know, that were well received, you know.
00:37:50.560Well, the first one wasn't, but others were. So it didn't completely thwart his progress and it didn't completely kill his spirit.
00:37:59.800But, you know, one has to wonder what would have happened had he been allowed to, you know, that language you use.
00:38:06.620It's maybe not helpful because, you know, it's still hypotheticals, but you're completely right.
00:38:13.700It was he was it was a no brainer. He should have been the director of the Paris Opera.
00:38:18.560And so he continued doing everything about his life surprised me what he did next. So like he, the music was always there with him. He was always composing or playing. But then at this point in his life, he was called upon to travel to London, to spend time with George, the Prince of Wales, and to do some fencing exhibitions. Can you talk about that?
00:38:43.560interesting um i think this goes back to his friendship with um philippe egalite the duke
00:38:53.040of orleans you know so um the philippe le gros this is um philippe egalite's dad
00:39:00.420was saint george's greatest benefactor i would say he invited saint george to you know live in
00:39:06.300the um courtly residences he was you know very protective of saint george and so you know saint
00:39:12.720Saint-Georges had a loyalty to this family.
00:39:15.420Now, Philippe de Gros, his son, Philippe d'Egalité, was around the same age as Saint-Georges.
00:39:21.520So they kind of grew up together in the same entourage, of course.
00:39:25.840But it's true that Philippe d'Egalité, he sort of wanted to become, he saw himself as becoming someone great,
00:39:34.960someone who's going to become the next king of France, if need be, because he was, you know, the first prince of blood.
00:39:40.640So he was linked through blood to the monarchy, linked through blood to the French throne.
00:39:50.060And so he did eventually want to see himself becoming the new king.
00:39:54.800Now, he went to Saint-Georges, sort of a friendship.
00:39:58.540I wouldn't say they were the best of friends.
00:40:00.420I think, as I said, just loyalty and the fact they were the same age and that Saint-Georges had been on the family for a while.
00:40:10.140It's also true that in England, the Prince of Wales, George, or maybe Prinny as they
00:40:19.340called him, you know, he was also in line to become the king of England because his
00:40:26.440father had a sort of mental illness that made it difficult for him to be an efficient ruler.
00:40:32.600So in 1788, you know, you have both men who are thinking, okay, we are going to be the
00:40:37.560future kings, you know, of our countries, we should form this alliance, we should start, you know,
00:40:41.520maybe solidifying our bond, you know, as we head into, you know, bigger things. And there you have
00:40:48.480Saint-Georges in the middle, right? And if it's true that Philippe Egalité knew that the Prince
00:40:54.360of Wales loved boxing, loved fencing. And so I think he used Saint-Georges as a way of maybe
00:41:00.020solidifying that deal, you know, maybe flexing his part by saying, at my disposal, in my entourage,
00:41:05.720I have the greatest fencer of Europe and I will send him to England.
00:41:11.000He'll do, he'll have an exhibition there.
00:41:14.080And, you know, I know that you are fencing.
00:41:15.760So, you know, I do you a favor and eventually you'll do one for me, you know.
00:41:19.640So it's a sort of bargaining chip, I think, you know.
00:41:22.640But for Saint-Georges, he was not, you know, a simpleton.
00:41:26.640He knew that if he went to England and he, you know, fenced, you know, for the prince,
00:41:33.560He would get, he would be paid, he would receive, you know, lavish gifts, which he did receive, but also he would earn for himself a new audience, you know. He'd not only have, you know, audiences in France, but also now in England. A country that was much more progressive in terms of tolerance, you know, than France was.
00:41:54.120So, you know, he went, sure, on the bidding of Philippe Egalité, but also for his own interest. I'm pretty sure he went knowing that I will come back with, you know, maybe enough in terms of money and, you know, maybe potential money and maybe income from my new audience if I go to England. So I think that's a part of what happened there.
00:42:18.640I just wanted to mention to the listeners, because I have done an episode before about the Chevalier Day On, and there was this big exhibition match, and there's a painting of it, and St. George was fencing against the Chevalier Day On, and I've seen that painting a hundred times, and I just didn't realize that that was the context of it, and I didn't realize that St. George is the opponent in that painting, yeah.
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00:48:39.980But then again, he's excelling in so many ways.
00:48:42.920but my next question is about his romantic relationships but again it comes back to
00:48:49.920his race which is that he was not able to marry he could not marry a woman of his choice he could0.98
00:48:56.800not marry a white woman and if he was going to marry a black woman he would probably lose0.78
00:49:01.660his prestige and his status he was he was known to have I think everybody in his entourage
00:49:08.480they all had many romantic entanglements this was a libertine group of people but then specifically
00:49:17.720so he had a relationship allegedly with a woman marie josephine de montalembert and that led to
00:49:25.000some drama can you talk about what happened with that so you're completely right you know in his
00:49:30.700entourage he had many people including many women you know and um because he was a person in the
00:49:36.760theater you know he was linked to different patronesses of the arts people who had their
00:49:41.680own private theaters and two of these women happened to be madame de montessant as who
00:49:46.360was you know one of the leading um patronesses of the arts she had the leading um private theater0.97
00:49:54.960and she happened to to on top of that be able to secure saint george as one of the directors
00:50:00.680so she was winning in every sense of the way another person and another um woman in this0.68
00:50:06.220entourage was Madame de Montalbert, who was younger than Madame de Montessant, was not as
00:50:13.200experienced and whose theater wasn't really thriving. So she went to Madame de Montessant0.93
00:50:20.020to ask for help, to say, well, I mean, could you allow me to, willing to lend, pretty much,
00:50:27.920lend me Saint-Georges so that he can help my theater and, you know, maybe get some seats into
00:50:32.940the chairs, sorry, some bodies into the chairs. And surprisingly, this was allowed, this happened.
00:50:42.000And I think, again, that Saint-Georges did this because he also had interest in working with
00:50:47.100Madame de Montalbert. I think so. So, you know, we have these two people who are working together
00:50:52.180to, you know, you know, create this thriving theater. And the rumors have it, you know,
00:50:59.540the columnist different gossip columns and everything picked upon maybe a sort of fondness
00:51:04.160between the two they're thinking it was more than just friendship that there was actually an actual
00:51:08.680affair going on and this led to they're saying as well um the birth of a child which was you know
00:51:15.320extremely extremely controversial because you know first of all it's a child another body that's
00:51:20.080there that has to be explained and most likely to be a person and the child would maybe bear
00:51:25.940resemblance of the father in some way, saying that, okay, you know, in the color of the
00:51:30.180skin, perhaps, you know, it would be obvious who the father was.
00:51:34.200And so even if these were only rumors, the general de Montalbert would have been, you
00:51:41.440know, completely upset, completely thrown off by, you know, rumors about his wife having
00:51:46.900an affair with Europe's greatest fencer, this huge celebrity that everyone was talking
00:51:52.200about the famous Saint-Georges, you know, to be, you know, rumored about having a relationship
00:51:58.100with, you know, his wife, it would have been too much, right? So as the story goes, this
00:52:04.180general, he saw to it that the son, this child, was not cared for, and the child died, and
00:52:11.680was, you know, disposed of. And supposedly, in order to maybe seal the deal, to completely
00:52:18.460maybe save his honor, he arranged for six men to assassinate, well, to attempt an assassination
00:52:27.520on Saint-Georges. This, you know, was not successful. Saint-Georges managed to defend
00:52:33.500himself, you know, you know, guns were involved and, you know, shots were fired, but he was not
00:52:39.560fatally injured, just maybe, you know, scratched up and, you know, sort of beaten up, but he
00:52:45.320he survived so according to the you know the stories according to um what's written allegedly
00:52:50.320this uh general de montalbert was the one who um actually orchestrated that um um attack
00:52:58.680i'm just thinking everything we know well you mentioned guns were involved too but i was
00:53:03.060thinking well if they came with swords like of course he's going to defeat them because he's
00:53:06.640right right this great answer yeah but i just feel like they came to attack him it's it's like
00:53:13.380going after a superhero or something like i'm glad that he escaped but also of course he did
00:53:19.160he's so athletic so clever right and then i mean we're getting closer and closer so the french
00:53:26.680revolution occurs right right that that little thing yeah he was talking about things that sort
00:53:35.240of altered the trajectory of his life so this everybody every so he had been in you know he
00:53:40.260was spending time playing music with Marie Antoinette and staying with all these aristocrats
00:53:45.400who are now under threat. And so what was his point of view about the French Revolution?
00:53:51.920How did he become involved? Yeah, you know, as you said, I don't think he had a choice,
00:53:58.340to be honest, because if his life thus far, you know, was really heavily influenced by the court,
00:54:05.020you know even in his name the chevalier de saint george you know this like this idea of him being
00:54:10.940so close to the nobility you know and then you have a time when the nobility is enemy number one
00:54:16.380you know this hatred and this this this this idea that you know um all of um the 900 years
00:54:23.760of servitude you know has been you know is no link to the nobility and you know they're trying
00:54:28.760to be, I don't know, they're being killed, you know, exterminated, then Saint-Georges
00:54:35.460had no other choice but to, you know, distance himself from the court, you know, as, you
00:54:41.220know, as much as possible as he could.
00:54:43.540He wanted to be seen as a patriot, you know, someone who supported the revolution, someone
00:54:49.400who was not a royalist supporting the monarchy, you know, even though his track record kind
00:54:54.620of made it difficult for him to do so.
00:54:56.440But there's a pamphlet that we have that's been attributed to him. And so my work now is to try to prove that this is actually a pamphlet written by St. George. But in this pamphlet, it's this idea that there are true citizens out there. There are true patriots. There are those who are fighting for the good of the nation.
00:55:17.920But there are two other factions. There are those who are the royalists, the monarchy. And then you have a third slippery faction, those people who are there who are working only for self-aggrandizement. They're just there to feed their ego, to see how much they can gain from causing anarchy.
00:55:34.560You know, and one person called out his Robespierre, who was eventually the leader or the instigator of the French terror, which is, you know, this very violent, bloody, gory period of the French Revolution where, you know, as the story goes, there's like just human blood, you know, just washing the streets of Paris.
00:55:51.800And, you know, in that period of time, you know, even if you were suspected of having an idea that went counter to the leading ideas of the time, then you were considered a traitor and be imprisoned and, you know, decapitated.
00:56:07.640And so it's true that Saint-Georges was imprisoned. We don't know why. It's not really clear as to why, but there are many reasons. It could have been his connection to the court, his connection to the Prince of Wales, his connection to Philippe Egalité. It could be because of his involvement in the National Guard that people were saying he was not as invested in the cause of the revolution, but more so interested in his music performances.
00:56:35.780you know um so he was put in prison you know um and it must have been a very uh i don't know um
00:56:42.200frightful time for him because for any reason he could have been decapitated he could have been
00:56:48.060killed but luckily that didn't happen but i do think in terms of the revolution he wanted to be
00:56:54.060seen as someone on the right side now i we don't know his true intentions i'm pretty sure he would
00:56:59.100of wanted to, you know, secure his life in many ways, you know, either to learn the old
00:57:06.540patrons that he had before, you know, in those privileged circles, but also to keep his neck
00:57:12.360on his body, you know, so he was maybe torn. But in the pamphlet, if it's truly written
00:57:17.680by him, he wants to be seen as citizen Saint-Georges, not Chevalier de Saint-Georges, but a
00:57:23.480a citizen who's a true patriot yeah so he winds up in a town called Lille and and this is where
00:57:32.380he his next pivot is to become an army leader so the Légion de Saint-Georges exactly exactly
00:57:42.500yeah so um in Lille in the north of France now he's not in Paris anymore in north of France
00:57:47.540and this is new home you know and it's in newspaper clippings we see that they you know
00:57:53.820the people of Lille love that he was there and he loved you know being in Lille as well he did
00:57:58.180exhibition matches there and eventually there's a call a national call to defend the north of
00:58:04.900France from you know intrusion from Austria and you know other countries other let's say
00:58:10.900monarchies that were trying to affect the French Revolution.
00:58:15.760And so St. George was one of the first people to sign up to become a part of the National
00:58:21.020And then a couple of years later, there's a call to have free men of color join and create
00:58:27.540this regiment of soldiers to continue defending, you know, the border.
00:58:35.500And St. George was once again, you know, just like with the Paris Opera, he was, you know, it was a no-brainer that he would be the director of this new legion or the legion of St. George, which he accepted.
00:58:51.780And I think, you know, it was the first army of men of color of the time.
00:58:58.480And as the story goes, he was not the best leader.
00:59:02.480I'm not sure if it's going to be believed because, you know, once again, you take everything with a grain of salt when it comes to the criticism of him and praise as well.
00:59:11.700But apparently he didn't manage funds really well.
00:59:16.760So mismanagement of funds was an issue and that he, you know, didn't seem interested in the work.
00:59:22.740He was more so interested in, you know, bringing glory to himself, that he's in this position to, you know, gain an audience again.
00:59:34.560So if he's a performer for him to survive, he needs an audience.
00:59:37.300And so he's doing this just to be in the limelight again.
00:59:39.820And he's eventually gone off to Belgium to the concert and he's left us without any director and leadership.
00:59:46.380And, you know, so he was eventually seen.
00:59:49.080And this might have led to him being in prison, but, you know, his true interests lied in, you know, bringing blood to himself and his fame and his celebrity, as opposed to, you know, being a true citizen to protect the French border.
01:00:03.140You know, so I'm not sure where I fall on that.
01:00:07.120I think it was a very difficult position to hold and a very difficult time to be a person in the French Revolution.
01:00:14.540It's impressive to me that he made so many shifts throughout his life, like, okay, now I'm going to do this. Oh, now the world is doing this. Now we're going to do this. Like, even if he didn't, he wasn't the greatest, you know, army general, he'd still survived. So he got to live another day, which is at this point, I mean, during the French Revolution, kind of the best anyone could ask for.
01:00:39.960exactly you know i can't imagine oh my gosh you just never know what's who do you side with
01:00:47.360because tomorrow maybe that's going to be the next enemy it's yeah so he this is the the final
01:00:55.260chapter of his life i guess is the the army stuff but as you mentioned he went to belgium to do a
01:01:00.020concert like he was still doing i think he assembled an orchestra in liel sort of similar
01:08:34.020And he was more successful at that time.
01:08:37.140So I emailed you these kind of categories that I usually...
01:08:43.300It's kind of a fun way to end the episodes,
01:08:45.960which we'll see how St. George does in these various categories.
01:08:50.500I'm very interested to hear what you're going to say for each of them.
01:08:53.180But the first category is the scandalousness. How scandalous was he seen by society at the time? And I'm curious because he was widely, in many ways, because he was making money for so many people, he was widely accepted. He was invited to all of these parties.
01:09:09.880yeah you know listen i think he was a very scandalous person i mean and and the way he
01:09:16.860discarded of tradition like you know when you think of the french academy and you think of
01:09:21.940just you know music theories and different treaties of harmony and he shows up and says
01:09:27.600you know what i'm gonna do it this way and you know luckily it it worked meaning people you know
01:09:35.680were i guess hungry for something new hungry for something you know um that they hadn't seen before
01:09:41.100right and it kind of worked i guess that because that he was so peculiar with the colorist pin
01:09:47.640to his origins to the way you know it well worked that this person would be the one to
01:09:52.320warp french with the french traditions right i think look it was on his side that you know
01:09:58.500it kind of pleased the taste of the um of the concert doors but you know also in um in athletics
01:10:06.560and fencing and you know the way he just like you know did his own thing i would give him a solid
01:10:11.880seven okay for being a scandalous person absolutely i agree and i think we've said so many things
01:10:16.860about him i just was like oh that's right he did do these like new and interesting ways didn't you
01:10:21.500say some of his music required people to hold a violin in a different way like that yeah you know
01:10:28.180these tremendous jumps and you know different um let's say um tonalities and just you know you had
01:10:35.360to as a human first of all say well can i can i can my body do that can my fingers do that you
01:10:43.020know and even and you know if you wanted to have a job you wanted to be a part of his entourage
01:10:47.240you know in his shine of course you'd find a way to to play some music you know um so it he pushed
01:10:55.340human potential as well which i think is you know tremendously interesting yeah and that's part of
01:11:01.760where i just feel like he feels like such a contemporary type figure that so many people
01:11:07.700in his era were just kind of doing what was expected and he was just he was just like that's
01:11:13.980not for me i'm just gonna do my own thing and you know hey it works yeah yeah which is yeah exactly
01:11:22.700he definitely set himself apart in that way as well as how he was already set apart to a lot of
01:11:27.240people because of the color of his skin so the next category is the scheminess um how much and
01:11:34.200i think this is going to be a very high number i think he i agree he was always he could find an
01:11:40.380angle. He knew he had this celebrity. He knew people were going to bet on him and he was able
01:11:45.160to leverage that to really elevate his success. I agree completely. I mean, with everything you've
01:11:51.640said, uh, and you know, it was, that's how he had to survive. You know, as a performer,
01:11:56.500you know, you were working for, you know, you live for the applause as who said that lady Gaga,
01:12:03.260there you go. You know, literally, you know, he needed to, you know,
01:12:10.380He had to understand the taste of the people who were going to concerts.
01:12:17.300He had to appease them at every moment for them to come back, for them to pay, for them to help him to make a living.
01:12:25.240And he moved from fencing to violin, to orchestral composition, to opera composition, to the National Guard, to boxing, all of that.
01:12:40.380And it's true that he did these things deliberately. I don't think he was just pulled along by life and by happenstance. For the French opera, it's true that in 1768, just curiously, randomly, a poem appeared in the Mercugallon, which is this journal that all the powerful people of France read.
01:13:07.140And there's this poem written about Saint-Georges and it says, you know, he's, you know, he's the genius of taste and talent. That's great. But then it ends by saying, how wonderful. Can you imagine if this talent, if he ever married music and words, he would be an Apollo? Just randomly. That's how this, this poem just comes out of nowhere and says, well, he has done so well in orchestral music.
01:13:32.780can you imagine if he became you know an opera composer and i i believe that i was you know
01:13:40.180strategically placed there to you know have the right eyes read it so that you know when saint
01:13:46.160george went up to become the director of paris the opera it wouldn't be a you know it wouldn't
01:13:50.920be a surprise because so it's not just saint george on his own being pulled out no there are
01:13:56.040Other, you know, investors, capitalists, as they call them, who are setting him up to, you know, to, you know, use his celebrity to, you know, be entered to, I don't know, elected to high power and positions for them to, you know, maybe benefit eventually from him.
01:14:15.620So a lot of scheminess, I think, not just for him, but for all the people around him.
01:14:24.980I think he always was thinking 10 steps ahead and knowing and because of like how he needed to keep going, like he was going contract to contract, like he didn't have, he just always had to find a way to, to make money and to keep going.
01:14:40.600And I think it's admirable that he, like you said, he wasn't just sort of floating along as life happened to him.
01:14:49.200And that's part of what's so notable and important about his life.
01:14:54.240so the next one i can guess what you're going to say but i want to hear your explanation
01:14:57.900um the significance yeah here again i give him high marks you know and it's really because of
01:15:05.960curiously it's because of what we don't know about him you know i feel as if for you know
01:15:12.140scholars you know anyone if there are gaps in our knowledge it usually focuses up it forces us to
01:15:19.180look harder and to try harder to build those gaps in you know and so here we have a person that we
01:15:25.180don't really understand his unique profile as a historical figure you know a person mixed race
01:15:29.920with this talent who is able to you know into these you know high positions of power he's a
01:15:34.780very he's a peculiar case and you know we need to first of all you know figure out his profile like
01:15:41.100as a historical figure how do we you know understand his you know particular profile
01:15:47.200What new connection can we make with existing knowledge? How can we create new points of focus? How can we answer some questions and maybe figure out maybe how we can write his legacy equitably?
01:16:07.320all of that forces us to just, you know, go back to the archives and to, you know, look at this
01:16:14.120entire early modern period differently. And all historians and all scholars of this period benefit
01:16:19.860from that, right? Just want to focus on Saint-Georges. And so for that reason alone, I give
01:16:25.020him like a nine, you know, because he just, he pulls us back into the century and forces us to
01:16:31.240answer questions that we didn't think we were even going to ask, you know? So, yeah, I think it is
01:16:37.180a lot for the academy as well yeah and then i i don't know how to discuss this next category but
01:16:43.120i when i started this podcast we were only talking about women um and i can't retroactively change
01:16:48.700the scale so because then i have to redo everyone's so the final category is sexism but i do think
01:16:54.180of the many things that i mean i think racism was obviously the a major um challenge for him but i
01:17:02.000do think sexism can be seen as part of the story and how i gave you this challenge how can we score
01:17:09.860this but what did you think about this you know i think because of his position again in theater
01:17:16.880you know he was in circles of of men privileged circles of men but circles of women as well so
01:17:23.820he was he understood the life cycle of women i do think you know he understood how sexism
01:17:29.520affected them and you know if we look at you know this idea of women moving between three positions
01:17:35.640or three zones of protection you know so at home in the family either they patriarch the brother0.99
01:17:43.500they father whatever and then from there moving to the protection of the husband and then from
01:17:48.260the husband you know depending on you know how the marriage goes if it's a you know if the woman is
01:17:53.480widowed and you know it doesn't have inheritance or even if there is some sort of inheritance
01:17:59.340the woman might then end up in the convent, you know?
01:18:01.800So it's only certain women who had, you know,0.90
01:18:28.200It's one of convenience, it's one of, you know, status, it's one where you're expected almost, and it's rumored about, and maybe it's real, it's imagined, but you're expected to have these different affairs, you know, you know, clandestine liaison, you're, you know, and you're expected to survive, find a way to, you know, get some sort of happiness before, you know, your husband, who's maybe 36 years older than you are, you know, passes off and you have some freedom.
01:18:57.800So there's Saint-Georges in the middle of this, who is somehow caught up in these, you know, rumors about the goings-on in the private chambers.
01:19:10.640Marie Antoinette, of course, you know, a lot of pornographic literature came out about her.
01:19:14.420I mean, like the scandals, you know, and I'm pretty sure he was caught up in this too.
01:19:18.360It was rumored about what he might have been doing with Marie Antoinette, with all the women, and of course, rumors about his sexuality, sexual appetite, what he liked and how large, how vigorous, all of that.
01:19:33.840And so I do believe indirectly he would have been affected by this discrimination against women for their own sexuality as well and their sexual freedoms.
01:19:46.700you know so i think because of that right i would you know i do think indirectly he was touched by
01:19:52.680sexism um and so i put him at like a lot of five right but you know there could be more too because
01:19:58.700you know the first opera he wrote was called ernestine and it was based on a famous novel by
01:20:04.680a a writer madame um briccavoni so you know a woman author of the of the time bestseller but
01:20:12.920The novel was about entering the psyche of a woman, you know, a young woman coming out into society, and just the grappling that she has to do with, you know, honor, her own honor and virtue and pride and, you know, trying to navigate the very difficult world of courtship and all that.
01:20:30.700And Saint-Georges chose that as his first actor.
01:20:33.480Sure, I mean, Marie Antoinette had a copy of the book in her possession, but why was he so keen on representing this literary figure on stage? Was it solely because of, you know, the popularity of the book? Was it because he actually, you know, knew all too well and he somehow maybe identified with this idea of, you know, non-freedom's identity of maybe restriction imposed upon oneself by the patriarchy, you know?
01:21:02.040So, yeah, I put him at a five, but it could be even higher.
01:21:06.020Five to seven, I believe, with his category.
01:21:09.640So when I add all those scores up, his total score is a 31, which I'll just let you know just of other people who have done on the podcast who have a similar score.
01:21:20.420Do you know Sally Hemings, the American Thomas Jefferson's enslaved mistress?
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