Vulgar History - Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire (part one)

00:00:00.000 so hello and welcome to vulgar history feminist women's history comedy podcast my name is anne

00:00:14.560 foster and you know right away i'm going to say we have a special guest it's amanda matta

00:00:18.360 royal commentator my bestie um and we're here talking about so we're in the regency era

00:00:24.940 our season is vulgar history regency era which is like technically it's like 1811 to 1820 was

00:00:30.700 the regency era but everybody uses it to describe kind of the early 1800s really and i'm specifying

00:00:37.000 that because the person we're talking about dies in 1808 um so she didn't actually live

00:00:41.500 it counts oh the way that it counts um some of my my patreon members will know i have a

00:00:49.440 bingo card on my patreon that's like regency era bingo and i was half looking at it myself and i'm

00:00:54.640 You might get a blackout bingo on her for all of the things that come up in this story.

00:00:59.640 And also, I would say the Regency era, technically, it means like the Regency of George, Prince

00:01:05.020 of Wales, when his father, King George III from Hamilton and from Queen Charlotte of

00:01:09.960 Bridgerton story.

00:01:11.060 That's how people know him.

00:01:12.240 When he went mad, Prince George took over and that became the Regency.

00:01:16.080 But Prince George himself is all over this story.

00:01:19.280 So I feel like for this podcast, it's like if he was alive and a woman was interesting,

00:01:23.360 I'm going to talk about it.

00:01:24.640 it counts. Yeah. Yeah. And this is, I'm so excited to talk about this story. I'm so excited you're

00:01:31.220 here for this, Amanda, because I mean, if you probably know you from your Royal commentary

00:01:34.740 and stuff, and we're going to get into that and parallels between her and connections between her

00:01:38.640 and some British Royals you might know about, but also your art history background, because she,

00:01:43.320 there's some really, really interesting portraits of this woman.

00:01:47.180 Yeah. It was funny when you told me the painting you wanted to talk about, I said,

00:01:51.300 bunny you should mention because that's the exact same one that i want to talk about and

00:01:56.520 it's not the one everyone expects with georgiana but it's so good and i was like thank god we're

00:02:03.820 on the same page here yeah well it's it's such an iconic portrait and so i will also mention

00:02:09.160 so georgiana is how we're going to pronounce her name because friends that is how she chose to

00:02:14.160 pronounce her own name um you might some people when you read it you might think georgiana you

00:02:19.540 might think Georgina, but she pronounced it Georgina. And we'll explain why in the episode.

00:02:25.680 I actually saw a pronunciation note from a British writer that was pronounced jaw,

00:02:30.900 like your jaw, Jaw-jana, which I guess it would be.

00:02:34.500 It probably would be. I mean, vague spoilers. She invented an accent

00:02:40.000 and a pronunciation of her own name and other words. So like, I don't even know. Have you seen 0.94

00:02:45.640 a Keira Knightley film about have I seen the Keira Knightley film yes absolutely okay I have not yet

00:02:51.960 and I'm gonna guess they don't use her made-up accent in that film because it would be really

00:02:56.500 strange they don't they use the pronunciation of her name but if they I don't think they affect

00:03:02.660 it to the degree that it sounds like the real life Georgina did but you do have Keira Knightley's

00:03:08.400 like very strong jaw forward pronunciation of some things yeah I think her really was a great

00:03:14.440 casting choice for that, but I will also say, so like listeners, you know, if you're new to this

00:03:18.860 podcast, guess what? There's tangents. There's going to be tangents. It's me and Amanda. There's

00:03:22.700 going to be even more tangents, but I do want to talk about first Georgina's connection to

00:03:27.800 Princess Diana. Yes, ma'am. Can you explain what, what the connection is?

00:03:33.680 So Georgina was born a Spencer. So her parents were, well, actually her dad was the first Earl

00:03:40.880 spencer and diana spencer who becomes princess diana in the modern era her dad and brother are

00:03:47.880 both earl spencer so she's not a direct descendant of georgiana i think it's something like it's

00:03:54.620 like her brothers yeah i think georgiana ends up being diana's four times great aunt or aunt

00:04:01.520 so they're both spencers by birth they both spent time in althorpe yes they both grew up at althorpe

00:04:08.080 they had their childhood there. And then their public lives have a lot of eerie parallels as

00:04:14.900 well, once they're older and married and having children and being influential and iconic and all

00:04:20.200 of it. And I would say also, when we're talking about Georgina and what she looks like, I read,

00:04:25.900 actually, I want to say, so I read the biography Duchess by Amanda Foreman, which is the story

00:04:31.660 of Georgina. It was the biography. And also this book sort of, here's Hepburn. She's my cat.

00:04:36.180 again Hepburn I don't know if there's any cats in this story but if there are I will be sure to 0.96

00:04:41.260 mention them I'm sure there were lots of mousers in Althorpe this is going to happen one million

00:04:45.460 times Patreons this is what you're paying for um so Georgiana is described often as being not 1.00

00:04:52.240 pretty like she's not like cute in that like conventional way but she's very tall like

00:04:57.200 unusually tall for a woman and very striking so I was like oh she's Princess Diana she 0.53

00:05:01.720 is princess diana like she's gorgeous but not in like a cutesy way conventional way 0.95

00:05:07.280 yeah so often the women at the center of these stories are like cleopatra scarlett o'hara to 1.00

00:05:15.240 pull one from literature yeah described as conventionally attractive but they're just

00:05:20.320 there's something about them exactly and i the only person i'm trying to think of who like was 0.84

00:05:24.840 conventionally attractive was the madame du barry who is just like yeah she had this like very cute 0.97

00:05:30.820 Like, I'm thinking like Scarlett Johansson, like if I conventionally prettier, like Hilary Duff, like a very pretty face that like, but Georgina, people say this about her.

00:05:40.500 It's like, there's something about her.

00:05:41.760 She was so magnetic.

00:05:43.280 She was, I mean, just being tall and striking does a lot in your favor.

00:05:47.600 But this is where Amanda Foreman says in the biography, like none of the portraits to her, Amanda Foreman, she's like, none of them really, you don't get that sense from the portraits of the vivaciousness of this woman.

00:05:57.360 I think there's just something about her in-person charisma.

00:05:59.720 Yeah, I was reading that she was really unaffected. So she didn't put on airs. She just kind of was very naturalistic, which was really in at the time, being influenced by philosophers of the Enlightenment. Someone like Marie Antoinette kind of, I think, wanted that personality quirk, but Georgiana had it naturally. She just was very open, very kind, it sounds like. And yeah, she had what is called a charming lack of affectation.

00:06:27.100 which is for somebody with her pedigree is interesting i think so georgiana um can you

00:06:33.740 we talked about like her father was the earl spencer there's so much in her adult life i'm

00:06:38.580 just like i'm trying to strictly have this be a two-part episode like we can't spend an episode

00:06:42.760 talking about her like weird childhood yeah but she had a weird childhood a little weird yeah her

00:06:49.500 her parents so her dad was john he does become the first earl spencer and her mom was margaret

00:06:56.280 Georgina. And they had married for love, which I think is interesting and probably colors

00:07:02.120 Georgina's own expectations of what a marriage will look like. And her dad was one of the richest

00:07:07.680 men in England. So they lived both at Althorpe and Spencer House in St. James's. So she has this

00:07:17.820 lavish upbringing, but still her parents kind of set their sights on somebody even richer for

00:07:25.560 Georgiana's husband, which is crazy to think about. Like her dad's already one of the richest

00:07:29.960 men in England, but spoiler, her future husband, who takes up a lot of time in this story,

00:07:35.980 unfortunately, is like even more fabulously wealthy. So it's a real, like she's in terms

00:07:41.760 of being a catch, like she is so wealthy. She's, but she's also really lovely. She was very much 0.97

00:07:46.560 and for her whole life, her, the favorite, like her mother was just like, Oh my God,

00:07:50.620 my daughter Georgiana is amazing. She has another daughter, Harriet, who like is throughout the

00:07:54.300 story like Georgina and Harriet say very tight oh god but um listeners anyway um but Georgina was

00:08:01.560 always this special like there was some she had a star quality to her even as a child like Harriet

00:08:06.960 her sister looked up to her the mother preferred her to all of her other children like so she was

00:08:12.260 there was something she had the it factor like it's not just like here's a young wealthy heiress 0.98

00:08:16.780 let's marry her to somebody it's like no here's this amazing superstar like she has everything 1.00

00:08:21.940 going for her. Everybody who meets her is just like, Oh my gosh, she's great. And she has this

00:08:25.980 personality trait that Amanda Foreman kind of, she layers throughout the whole book, but it's

00:08:29.800 always there, which is just like, she needs attention in a relatable way to you and I as

00:08:35.320 podcasters and semi-public figures. I think, um, she has this bottomless need for like affection

00:08:42.280 and love. And this puts her at risk of being manipulated and being taken advantage of because 0.97

00:08:48.120 she just she's very needy emotionally dare i say another diana parallel too because something you

00:08:55.800 get from you know biopics and and accounts of princess diana is this need for validation and

00:09:02.660 affection and sometimes she would even like parentify prince william to a degree to get that

00:09:08.140 like emotional feedback that she needed not great no and it's sort of like and well princess diana

00:09:14.920 she lived in an era where there was psychotherapy, but you know,

00:09:19.060 how much of it was she able to access, but Georgiana, that was not around.

00:09:22.500 So she just, we will talk about how she tries to fill this in her life,

00:09:27.140 which is like, she does her best.

00:09:29.180 Yeah. I mean, the whole point of her existence and Harriet, her sister,

00:09:33.280 her whole point was to make a good match.

00:09:35.480 And that's kind of what she was raised to do. 0.99

00:09:37.820 The expectation was she would make this fabulous marriage and improve the 0.97

00:09:41.720 family's prestige, partner the family with another similar family. So that was kind of

00:09:48.120 what her education was geared towards. She and her mother were very close and they wrote letters

00:09:52.520 like, I think almost every day. So I wonder if that's something where Lady Spencer, the elder,

00:09:59.760 is like one of the only people that could really understand what Georgiana or G, as I also refer

00:10:05.520 to her sometimes in my notes, was going through. I do think one of the bingo squares is

00:10:11.020 silly nickname for the regency era and they're good ones in this we've got some great ones coming

00:10:17.100 up i was thinking of like the influencer baby name predictions they would have if they had

00:10:21.320 existed in the 1780s they would have had a field day with georgiana's family

00:10:25.600 they there's a lot of there's a lot of georgiana's in the story and they all get little nicknames

00:10:31.300 so the guy who she's gonna marry the guy who she does end up marrying i wanted to let listeners

00:10:35.560 know long-time listeners who listen to the mary queen of scott series will remember best of hardwick

00:10:40.440 he is a descendant from that family like all of Bess of Hardwick this real estate magnate of like

00:10:46.680 the 1500s like this is his descendant so Lord Cavendish yep yeah her family met him they used

00:10:54.260 to take these trips they were very well traveled so I guess when Georgina was still a young-ish

00:11:00.820 teenager yeah she met him when she would have been 14 and her family was on a trip of Belgium

00:11:05.860 in France and the Netherlands. So they were in the town of Spa when the Spencers met William,

00:11:12.040 who was the fifth Duke of Devonshire. And he had been the Duke from the time he was 16. So he came

00:11:17.700 to the Dukedom pretty early. And by the time he was meeting Georgiana, he would have been 22.

00:11:23.900 So it's an age gap for sure. Not as egregious as I think the Keira Knightley movie makes it seem

00:11:29.660 because it's Ralph Fiennes plays the Duke and Keira Knightley is supposed to be like,

00:11:34.440 i think you can tell 16 or 18 but still an age gap and he i don't know what what is your

00:11:41.460 impression of he agrees to marry her he never likes her so why why should he marry her well

00:11:52.620 okay so i'm trying not to let my opinion be colored by the movie because they i think the

00:11:57.760 characterizations in that movie are done very well but in reality so you have the duke of

00:12:03.300 devonshire he is he's called dull a lot very reserved he doesn't have that like outgoing

00:12:10.400 vivaciousness that georgiana does but what he does have is like a very prestigious position

00:12:15.460 in society so he's insanely wealthy he was um twice as wealthy as lord spencer georgiana's dad

00:12:23.420 who was already like top echelon of society so just buckets of money he also as the head of the

00:12:31.460 Cavendish family kind of inherited this role. And this is sadly where we have to bring in politics.

00:12:38.000 He was like the leader of the Whig society. So not necessarily political himself.

00:12:46.280 I just need to say to the listener, there are a couple of things that what I encounter them

00:12:52.080 in a historical story, I'm just like, Oh God, here we go. And one of those things,

00:12:56.360 mine. Napoleon is one of mine as well. Um, so is the city of Antwerp and so is, uh, the Whigs and

00:13:04.980 Tories. So I would just like to say as the author of a book that takes place somewhat parallel to

00:13:11.920 Georgina's book, um, life story, uh, the Whigs and Tories were the, the two political parties

00:13:18.520 in england at this time wigs is spelled w-h-i-g and i my brain shuts off when wigs and tory's

00:13:27.680 discussion occurs which it does a lot in this story the poll the poll there's all the politics

00:13:33.180 i didn't put in my book amanda foreman put in her book so if you put them together there you go

00:13:39.700 we can i think impart a little bit just to like set the groundwork but i don't want to go down

00:13:47.080 that road either i was gonna tell you at the beginning of this podcast it's like this is a

00:13:50.600 very important part of her of her legacy jayna becomes really involved in politics and great

00:13:55.360 for her women were not doing this but like amanda and i are not going to be talking about it like 1.00

00:14:00.260 the minimum when i was running my book amanda and i realized i had to actually learn about wigs and

00:14:06.540 tories i was furious i made this little doc of who is prime minister when and which party was he in

00:14:12.460 and for like a week i knew all this stuff and then i immediately made my mom forget it because it's

00:14:16.580 not relevant right i think what's important to know is the georgian era is when we we first get

00:14:22.200 like party politics in the uk you have ministers if you've ever watched the favorite with queen

00:14:27.620 anne you see it there too like nicholas holt is one and then there's an old guy on the other side

00:14:31.760 and they're kind of vying for her political opinions back and forth so this is like not

00:14:37.500 even 100 years on from like the introduction of this political system in the uk now the wigs i

00:14:42.620 think it is important to know that king george the third hated them so in terms of the wigs and

00:14:49.000 tories here's what i still know the wigs were slightly more progressive yes um and the king

00:14:54.800 didn't like them and the tories were more conservative like let's keep everything the

00:14:58.860 same and the king still liked them yeah there's no wigs anymore but um these are the two parties

00:15:05.240 so like the wigs are kind of like the cool up and coming to an extent yeah they still think

00:15:10.860 that you should have your own land in order to vote and women don't get the vote but yeah like

00:15:15.640 it's not bernie sanders is not the wigs but it's like anyway so the wigs are a bit more progressive

00:15:21.080 as much as you can be the tories are very like institutional and in my book rebel of the regency

00:15:27.440 coming out in two weeks or so from when you listen to this episode my editor at one point

00:15:33.280 because i was talking about in my book like there's caroline of brunswick and there's her

00:15:36.300 husband, George IV, AKA Prinny. And they kept switching back and forth who was supporting the

00:15:41.820 Whigs or the Tories. And the editor was like, Oh, before you said that she was supporting the

00:15:45.100 Whigs, but now the Tories. I'm like, people, you didn't register as a party. People were elected

00:15:52.220 to parliament and they, in a couple of days could switch sides. Like it wasn't, it was pretty

00:15:56.440 nebulous. Yeah. Like Georgina's family and her husband's family, like they're like firmly Whigs

00:16:01.780 only ever, but it was kind of like the King, King George III supported the Tories. And because his

00:16:09.060 son, George hated him, he supported the Whigs, but then the, the Tories kind of seduced George,

00:16:14.260 like Prince George, and then he became a Tory. So it's like, it's moving back and forth. So I

00:16:18.460 had to explain this in my book as best as I could, because whoever, whoever the King supported,

00:16:23.100 his son would support the opposite. And whoever the son supported, Carolina Brunswick would

00:16:27.300 support the opposite. So they kept pivoting. That's fun. Not really. I hate that for you,

00:16:33.740 actually. I'm so sorry. That's why I had a Google Doc. Well, what you need to know for the purposes

00:16:39.600 of talking about the Duke is the Cavendish family, the Spencer family, and the Portland family,

00:16:44.080 they were like the head of Whig society. So they were seen as like the hot young radicals, 0.67

00:16:50.860 even though they weren't all hot or young, presumably. I will say, so there's a third

00:16:55.380 party, there's a party called the radicals and that, and they're the people that is the Bernie

00:16:59.920 Sanders of the region Sierra, but they're not involved in this story at all. Nope. Nope. Small

00:17:05.060 R radicals. So, okay. Back to why this guy needed a Georgiana for his wife. Right. So he's like the 1.00

00:17:12.060 head of this Whig society and that involves throwing parties. And he's also the financial 0.90

00:17:17.100 patron of the Whigs. So, you know, he's choosing who to bankroll, who to support, get people

00:17:22.780 elected to parliament. And he himself, he's offered, I think, a position in the King's

00:17:30.820 cabinet like three times throughout his life, but he declines every time. So to me, that tells me

00:17:35.980 like he himself is not comfortable in the spotlight. He just wants to kind of pull the

00:17:40.500 strings from backstage. And in marrying someone like Georgiana, not only do you get the family

00:17:47.040 connection kind of strengthening this head of Whig society position as it was, but you also get a

00:17:54.640 hostess and somebody who can throw these parties and mingle on your behalf. And that would have

00:17:59.980 been something expected of a wife in addition to having an heir, having babies. And where I want 0.81

00:18:05.840 to also just like, we've, there's so many Princess Diana parallels, but one that there is not

00:18:10.600 is Georgiana is not shy Georgiana is so outgoing and so extroverted she loves being around people

00:18:18.040 this is part of the like attention yeah isolation is not good for her no so like throwing parties

00:18:23.680 she is never happier than when she's in a room full of people at a party planning a party doing 0.98

00:18:28.520 a party like she thrives in this environment so this is actually so in that sense she's just the

00:18:34.660 that he needs yeah yeah position's good for her um what is not good is that you get quotes from

00:18:41.540 he hates her he's the only man in england not charmed by his wife basically that's like an

00:18:47.500 actual contemporaneous quote from people just observing their marriage because they're at the

00:18:52.380 head of society they're gonna be talked about there's gonna be gossip about this marriage

00:18:56.160 but at the same time georgiana is the most interesting thing about the duke of devonshire

00:19:01.500 so that sucks for him no and this is big charles and diana energy right yeah because that was where

00:19:08.780 he started treating her they went on a tour of i think australia um and she was so beloved just

00:19:13.740 after they got married and he was like wait a minute people like her and not me the best

00:19:17.860 anecdote is when they would get out of a car to do like the walkabout depending on which you know

00:19:23.480 side they got like the crowd was divided on either side of the car and if diana started walking

00:19:30.840 towards like the right side instead of the left you would hear like audible groans because the

00:19:36.340 left side of this crowd knew that they were getting Charles and like yeah I get why as

00:19:41.220 as the prince as the man in this relationship you would hate that but your wife's so beautiful and

00:19:48.020 everyone loves her like what's your deal dude and Georgina this is so she marries him and she's

00:19:54.580 entered into society and she becomes and she remains for the whole rest of her life

00:19:58.780 the number one celebrity in the world like she like so I'm trying to think of I don't even know

00:20:06.620 who that would that person is now who's just like universally she's like the Beyonce she's like the

00:20:11.200 she's the Taylor Swift like people are just like setting trends like they see her she steps I just 1.00

00:20:17.820 picture her stepping into the carriage for the first time she's like whatever five foot ten

00:20:21.480 striking and everyone's just like and she's so lovely and this is where I talk about in my book

00:20:26.980 also the tabloid press is just starting. Um, and people, so like celebrity, like our modern concept

00:20:33.260 of like a famous, like, uh, just a debutante, like a rich woman being famous. Like this is

00:20:37.860 just starting and people are obsessed with her. Like when they write about her, they sell more

00:20:42.300 issues of their magazine or whatever. Like, and it's because she's great and everyone loves her

00:20:48.480 and she wears these outfits and that's where I have some notes actually. Um, yes. Yeah. So,

00:20:53.860 I mean when she so she marries the duke she's 16 he's 24 she only five people attended the wedding

00:21:00.980 which I thought was interesting it was Georgina's parents the duke's mother the duke's brother and

00:21:06.280 his sister the Duchess Portland so I found that interesting um it wasn't used as a chance to do

00:21:12.460 a big society affair but maybe that wasn't like what you did in the Georgian era yeah I don't know

00:21:18.140 I don't know I just I found that interesting like in a different era we would have had the

00:21:22.260 charles and diana like fairy tale wedding for these two like for sure actually what i want to 0.80

00:21:26.720 say too and this is where it's giving me a bit of marie antoinette as well they get married and her

00:21:30.300 job is to like host these parties and also to give birth to children and she does not right away so 0.83

00:21:37.700 in a similar way to marie antoinette like she distracts herself with fashion that's like 0.97

00:21:44.220 increasingly outrageous so um and i mean also similar to marie antoinette she steps into a

00:21:50.700 system she hadn't really been prepared for. Like as much as her parents prepared her for marrying

00:21:56.080 well, they didn't really set her up for success in running household. And she took over, it was

00:22:02.140 Chatsworth House, Hardwick Hall, Chiswick House, and Lismore Castle, as well as the estates of

00:22:07.720 Lonsborough and Bolton Abbey in Yorkshire. So that's like a huge amount of responsibility

00:22:13.480 to make sure these houses are well run, taken care of, overseeing the staff,

00:22:17.920 as well as throwing lavish parties. 0.94

00:22:20.920 And normally, I guess she would have gotten her...

00:22:24.720 I'm sorry.

00:22:25.520 I said earlier, the Duke's mother was at the wedding.

00:22:27.780 I guess it was his grandmother.

00:22:29.660 My bad.

00:22:30.380 Because the Duke's mother had died 20 years ago,

00:22:33.520 meaning that Georgina had nobody to learn from

00:22:36.020 on running these estates.

00:22:38.060 So she kind of has to learn on the job, 0.96

00:22:40.440 which is a handicap as well. 1.00

00:22:42.120 And I'm going to imagine that the fact

00:22:43.400 that she didn't take to it immediately as a teenager

00:22:45.340 made him hate her even more.

00:22:46.920 Probably. 0.97

00:22:47.920 yeah he listeners he sucks so but here here's some fashion information please and this is she's 0.98

00:22:56.240 living in parallel to marie antoinette so like a lot of the fashions marie antoinette was up to 0.97

00:23:00.160 similar things are happening in england and eventually the two of them do become friends

00:23:04.260 there's sort of a like which came first marie antoinette or georgiana like in terms of

00:23:09.660 popularizing the poof is one here we go um georgiana took the fashion this is from amanda

00:23:15.500 Foreman's book. She took the fashion a step further by creating the three foot hair tower. 0.98

00:23:20.440 She stuck pads of horse hair to her own hair using scented pomade and decorated the top with 0.59

00:23:25.460 miniature ornaments. Sometimes she carried a ship in full sail or an exotic arrangement of stuffed

00:23:30.940 birds and waxed fruit, or even a pastoral tableau with little wooden trees and sheep.

00:23:36.200 I love it. It reminds me of like a Kate Spade bag now shaped like a croissant. Like I think

00:23:40.520 that's our equivalent, like something very cutesy and like kitschy. I wish we could do fruit in the

00:23:47.660 hair though and not look like the Chiquita banana woman. Well, and this is where we get into like 1.00

00:23:52.940 the Bridgerton of it all. Like when people today think of it, I think they think of like the

00:23:56.360 previous season of Bridgerton where Queen Charlotte had a moving carousel in her wig.

00:23:59.880 Yeah. Like, and Bridgerton takes place a bit later from when Georgina was living,

00:24:04.700 but Queen Charlotte still dresses like this earlier era. And this is what.

00:24:08.360 that so interesting and that was like a way of holding on to the reins of power in society like

00:24:13.840 forcing people at the British court to dress like they had 20 years ago as like a way of saying

00:24:21.580 we're above all of these trends like I just so interesting psychologically well and also how

00:24:29.360 much of this is Queen Charlotte being like I was happy in this era let's pretend right yeah for 0.76

00:24:34.720 sure yeah georgiana um so she has the poofs she also has the big dresses um another the ostrich 1.00

00:24:42.880 feathers yep i have a quarter of the ostrich feathers oh you go ahead her hair was so tall 1.00

00:24:47.460 with the ostrich feathers and her skirts were so big that she had to sit on the floor of her 0.99

00:24:52.240 carriage whenever she went anywhere uh so it was probably just her in a carriage when she was

00:24:58.040 going from place to place in her georgian era big skirts and it reminded me too of diana getting out

00:25:04.680 of the carriage for her wedding with her skirt all wrinkled because it had been stuffed in that

00:25:09.920 no it's like people you hear about going to the met gala or the oscars it's like they have to 0.97

00:25:14.660 stand sit down yeah she's stuffing herself five foot ten three other poof skirt into a carriage

00:25:21.500 somehow making her way from place to place um but and read the ostrich feathers yeah so please 1.00

00:25:27.520 so in the british ambassador in paris uh maybe she was in paris i don't know she went back and

00:25:34.720 forth to paris a lot but anyway lord stormont the british ambassador in paris presented her

00:25:38.320 with an ostrich feather that was four feet long overnight it became the most important accessory

00:25:42.780 in a lady's wardrobe even though the tall nodding plumes were difficult to find and extremely

00:25:47.060 expensive yeah so you see this a lot when you look at um just pictures or you know fashion 0.98

00:25:55.160 this era, like it's women and they're wearing these huge feathers. So this was, I find it

00:26:00.600 interesting. It's the same way, you know, like Nicole Kidman wearing heels or it's like, you're

00:26:04.440 a tall woman and you're making yourself take up even more space, right? Like you're just becoming

00:26:09.140 this like goddess really. Yeah. And I mean, some people found that like ridiculous, but I think in

00:26:15.640 general, and Amanda Foreman talks about this. Um, I read it on her website. She says Georgina's

00:26:21.660 youth protected her when she started to experiment like this with her clothes society likes fresh

00:26:27.260 young talent with bold ideas georgiana was not only unafraid to challenge the rules of fashion

00:26:31.560 she relished the opportunity to exert her power so she there's a line in the film where georgiana

00:26:38.540 kira knightley says to the duke you have so many ways of expressing yourself whereas we women have

00:26:44.340 to make do with our hats and our dresses and so this is something she kind of learns early on

00:26:48.560 how to express herself through her clothing and it'll come up again later in her life well and

00:26:53.600 it's very much um it's it's similar to marie antoinette except marie antoinette was expressing

00:26:59.360 herself through fashion and then her haters use that yeah it was not well received georgiana was

00:27:05.240 expressing herself with fashion everyone's like this is great she's great she's so smart and

00:27:10.160 pretty and we love her yeah so it's interesting that the two things are kind of going in parallel

00:27:15.060 I'm not sure if he was around at this time or not, but she at some point visits, um,

00:27:19.140 Versailles. She meets Marie Antoinette. They get along amazingly, obviously like they have all

00:27:23.840 this in common. Um, just being sort of married to weird men, weird, boring men. Yeah. I think 0.76

00:27:30.840 they have like psychological things in common, but also I think they have fun together. So she

00:27:34.400 met the Duchess of Polignac and they became friends. Um, and this is, so like they were

00:27:40.240 correspondents, her and Marie Antoinette and the Duchess of Polignac, like they became pen pals.

00:27:43.940 they're all because there's a lot of like Paris London going back and forth in this pre-revolutionary

00:27:48.440 era which is what we're in yeah which I think is so cute like I'm glad she had a gal pal well I'm

00:27:54.620 sorry I should say a healthy gal pal because she does have gal pals and one very notable one

00:27:59.360 but I'm I want to the next notes I have are about her accent so yes please so this is called the

00:28:07.960 devonshire house drawl so it's been characterized as part baby talk part refined affectation um and

00:28:15.100 they just sort of chose to pronounce words in new ways this reminds me of something you might do if

00:28:21.220 you're in like fourth grade a group of friends are like we're just going to talk like this now

00:28:25.160 and then until the and the teachers are like what are you even saying like it's just a bunch of

00:28:28.600 people just being like let's be silly let's pronounce vowels differently they pronounce i

00:28:33.120 think they like lengthen the vowels um and it's sometimes like overly dramatic and i've read that

00:28:40.420 it was possible that georgiana had that accent that british like there's like a british accent

00:28:45.840 where they can't quite pronounce an r correctly so that it's possible she had that and like just

00:28:52.780 worked with it and made it into something trendy but yeah it's also possible that this was like

00:28:58.840 fashionable and she kind of picked up on it and then because she picked up on it other people did

00:29:03.580 too so i mean talk about trend setting like i have some examples here please yes so cucumber

00:29:11.680 becomes cow cumber and gold becomes gould um and spoil rhymes with mile um stresses fell on

00:29:21.080 unexpected syllables such as balcony instead of balcony and con or contemplate instead of

00:29:29.660 contemplate it's not it reminds me of moira rose from schitt's creek it's exactly moira rose from

00:29:35.280 schitt's creek it's exactly that but she started doing that and because in the real like regina

00:29:40.920 george mean girls way yeah everyone's like i guess we are going to talk like this now too and then

00:29:45.880 everyone does and then to the point that it becomes just like that's just how people talk

00:29:49.000 like she created this accent um they do not do that in the movie sadly that would have i think

00:29:55.660 given it a different tone like that would have made it more of like a dark comedy so by the 0.99

00:30:01.320 middle of this way we're like 17 70s is where we're talking by the mid 1800s all wigs talk

00:30:09.880 like this like this just became the wig accent that's crazy i'd like to think of a trendsetter

00:30:17.140 what if it was just a prank what if she's just being like i bet i can get everyone to talk 0.60

00:30:21.180 differently and then they just know because she was so unaffected she really must have meant it

00:30:26.740 it was yeah it's and this is why she's called georgiana and it was funny when i first started

00:30:32.660 preparing for this i listened to a couple other people's podcasts about her and some of them

00:30:35.900 pronounced it georgiana and i thought why are they saying it that way it was like a woman

00:30:39.420 i forget which podcast it was but she had like a southern american accent and i'm like oh that

00:30:43.000 must just be how you pronounce Georgiana in the south but then it's like oh no it's this is and

00:30:48.480 helpfully the woman um who recorded my audiobook um she just as I had learned that it's Georgiana

00:30:56.900 um she sent a list of like how do you pronounce these words like to make sure she's and one of

00:31:01.900 them was this and I was like well actually it's Georgiana a week earlier in this context I wouldn't

00:31:08.320 have known that a week before she asked that question so the timing of it was perfect because

00:31:12.240 Georgina does show up briefly in my book just because she's well actually let's talk about her

00:31:16.900 friends her friend circle she is friends with everybody influential all these I'm good the 1.00

00:31:22.420 bitches you sort of hinted at this there are women in her life they are bitches um she's like the 1.00

00:31:28.240 queen bee but she's nice which is an interesting thing like she's kind and I was trying to think 1.00

00:31:34.620 if she was in Mean Girls she would be like the Lacey Chabert character like she just wants

00:31:40.160 everyone to like her yeah is her energy i think yeah in a way she's she's very it seems like she's 0.72

00:31:47.820 always looking for the best in other people she's not jaded by society which props to her like she

00:31:54.060 could have been she had every right to be but this makes people sometimes take advantage of her or

00:32:00.040 manipulate her but one of her friends becomes george the prince of wales um yeah they become

00:32:07.420 very close, which is interesting. She was never his lover. She's a bit older than him, but all

00:32:13.160 of his lovers were always a bit older than him. But at this point in her life, Georgina, she's

00:32:17.440 married to what's his face who sucks Cavendish. She can't take a lover until she has a son. Like 0.99

00:32:23.720 she can not have any question with the paternity of her children. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like

00:32:31.820 eight or nine years after the marriage until they have kids which is another parallel with

00:32:37.500 Marie Antoinette I think it's almost exactly like year for year which is interesting and she has a

00:32:43.340 daughter she has I think two daughters yeah so she she's stuck with this guy and the duke he when

00:32:51.380 he's before they're even married he has one illegitimate child he had an affair while he

00:32:59.360 was betrothed to Georgiana with a former milliner or hat maker named Charlotte Spencer, possibly a

00:33:06.640 relation of her. I don't know. Um, so they had a daughter relation, but good. Okay. So they had a

00:33:13.920 daughter and then he also a couple of years after the marriage in 1778, he commands a militia. Um,

00:33:22.480 And while he's off, he has an affair with Lady Jersey and she even shares his tent and it's like

00:33:30.200 not a secret. So he's allowed to have affairs and even have children out of wedlock. But Georgina,

00:33:36.740 there's no question her job is to throw these parties and get pregnant. And she does a really, 1.00

00:33:43.060 really good job of throwing the parties. She becomes like the head of society very, very 0.63

00:33:48.460 quickly but she's not getting pregnant and this is where this is in terms of the marie antoinette

00:33:54.240 parallels like this is marie antoinette did not conceive children because she and her husband

00:33:59.040 were little nerds who didn't know how sex worked um georgiana is maybe had a condition yeah but

00:34:05.960 like her georgiana's husband is fathering children all over the place like this is yes he knows how

00:34:11.340 he knows how to do it he used to spend all night out at the club playing cards presumably dancing

00:34:18.520 with other women and they they actually their primary residence was london they didn't live

00:34:24.120 at their country house most of the year but when they did come to chatsworth they would have so

00:34:28.460 many people over to the extent that like the house was essentially open to the public and apparently

00:34:33.880 once a month the duke and duchess would just throw a big dinner and anybody who came to visit like

00:34:39.480 you were welcome to stay for dinner so another Versailles kind of parallel like anybody could

00:34:44.020 get in as long as they were dressed correctly I was thinking that's just like Versailles yeah

00:34:47.640 so Georgina like in terms of her not having children it's um she knows that this is like

00:34:53.300 throwing the parties is her job but having heirs is like her real job and this stresses her out

00:34:58.240 so much her mother is blaming her for this in a kind of like Marie Antoinette and her mom sort

00:35:02.640 of way but she has various he clearly can father children and has and continues to so she takes

00:35:09.460 this all on herself. Like what's wrong with me? She does. And this is like in another Princess

00:35:13.700 Diana parallel, um, eating disorder type stuff comes out. Um, Foreman says that not only did

00:35:22.640 she have like binges and purges, um, but she also took drugs, presumably to block out emotions.

00:35:30.960 Um, I think Foreman describes it as using all available means to silence the voices in her

00:35:36.460 head which like we can't know that but it does seem like she was compensating in her social life

00:35:42.300 and just partying hard which in turn might have been contributing to her difficulties there were

00:35:48.920 at least a couple i think miscarriages early in marriage um and some of them her biographers do 0.95

00:35:56.480 trace back to what they call her destructive lifestyle i think it's so hard to pin fertility 1.00

00:36:01.720 issues on any one cause. I don't love that, but that's both are happening, right? She's partying, 0.99

00:36:08.460 she's drinking, she's gambling. That's the other thing going on. She's gambling. This is her 0.87

00:36:15.600 life's passion and loves it. As do many people in Georgian society. I will say that's on the

00:36:22.340 bingo card. Um, on the bingo card, I think is gambling debts, which she does get into. 0.72

00:36:26.480 She sure does.

00:36:27.560 There's a game that she's playing.

00:36:28.840 It's called Pharaoh, F-A-R-O.

00:36:31.020 And it seems like the most chaotic, rules-free,

00:36:35.660 of course, you're going to lose your money.

00:36:36.840 It's not a skill game.

00:36:37.460 It's just a luck game.

00:36:38.880 It's just a luck game. 1.00

00:36:39.960 She picks the ones where your skill doesn't help,

00:36:43.220 which is, I think, the biggest problem here.

00:36:45.740 Yeah.

00:36:46.260 So she gets really similar to Marie Antoinette in this way.

00:36:51.100 I don't mean to keep bringing it up,

00:36:52.620 but it's so...

00:36:53.080 Because Marie Antoinette, she didn't have children.

00:36:54.880 She was really struggling.

00:36:55.680 So she started having parties.

00:36:57.220 She started wearing these crazy outfits, like compensate in other ways, like 18 years old

00:37:01.600 and just like doing the best they can. 0.84

00:37:04.360 Yeah.

00:37:04.500 I have some information on her debts.

00:37:06.500 If you would like the nitty gritty. 0.88

00:37:08.600 She falls into debt early and stays in her whole life. 0.98

00:37:13.800 Yep.

00:37:14.440 So the first time she finds herself deep in debt, it was for 3000 pounds, which today

00:37:20.360 is just under 300,000 American dollars.

00:37:23.600 So she, instead of going to her husband, she asks her parents for a loan because I guess she's,

00:37:30.060 she's embarrassed. She doesn't want the Duke to know. And her parents are like, okay, we'll give

00:37:34.860 you the money, but you do need to tell your husband, this is a little insane. So she does

00:37:39.720 tell him he finds out and he repays her parents and the next several decades will continue having

00:37:46.680 to pay off his wife's gambling debts. And she is always embarrassed by it.

00:37:52.020 she always tries to hide them. She always tries to, when she's forced to like admit her debts,

00:37:57.680 she never admits the full amount of them, clearly carrying such a deep shame about it. And she can't

00:38:03.580 stop a mass. Well, I think it's like, once you get into that spiral of gambling, um, as people

00:38:07.960 still do state who have gambling issues, like, well, if I just do one more and I win, then it'll

00:38:12.880 yeah. Yeah. Foreman says that if there was ever going to be a true reckoning of her debts,

00:38:20.240 the Devonshire estate would have been bankrupted several times over. So this is an issue. And I

00:38:26.380 think a reason that she keeps it such a secret is the Duke could presumably mortgage part of

00:38:32.480 his estate to cover her debts, but he's not allowed to mortgage his estate until he produces

00:38:38.260 a legitimate heir, which is another reflection back on Georgina. She can't have a son for him,

00:38:44.580 so he can't pay her gambling debts and so everyone's miserable yeah so she's always

00:38:50.200 borrowing money from friends even though her husband's the wealthiest man in england basically

00:38:54.520 um the prince of wales gives her money and like sets her up with bankers in london to help cover

00:39:01.460 her debts like everybody kind of knows yeah and she's her her friendship with the prince of wales

00:39:07.500 aka prinny he also is in debt constantly all the time but he so he would know he's like here's the

00:39:13.160 people who will still loan you money, even when you have, but it's not like all the people that

00:39:17.540 she gets to loan her money. She makes them feel like they're the only person doing it. So they

00:39:21.260 don't know. So she asks for money for a bit of her debt. So like, and she's like, don't tell

00:39:25.760 anybody. So all these people know about it, but they don't tell each other. Yeah, sure. So she's

00:39:31.900 got this kind of like community of people who think they're the only one who know, and they're

00:39:35.880 the only one who's helping her, but actually it's everyone. Oh my gosh. And yeah, so it's her whole

00:39:40.640 life it's not until after her death which she everyone outlives her basically she's the first

00:39:46.240 in her circle to die and so her husband and her son after she dies have to make a public appeal

00:39:51.920 because they don't even know how many people she owes money to so they made a public appeal

00:39:56.560 anybody who believed themselves owed from Georgina's estate to come forward and like

00:40:02.300 get their debts paid basically yeah well because she she wants to talk about because she's just

00:40:07.620 it's like I don't know if you get like bills in the mail and you just like stuff them away and

00:40:11.300 you're like I'll think about that tomorrow like your credit card bills or something it's just like

00:40:14.540 she didn't she couldn't even keep track of how much she owed and to who because she was this is

00:40:20.000 like I just feel so much sympathy for her as this young woman like she's under so much pressure like

00:40:26.700 his more money more problems you know yeah like the cabin dishes are really putting all these

00:40:31.980 expectations on her, like her own family. She herself is, she's extremely young and everyone's

00:40:38.260 just like, well, just get pregnant, just have a child. Like no one can help her with this. So 0.99

00:40:42.000 like, yeah, she's turning the, when you said she's using drugs before, like what it is, it's like

00:40:45.280 opium, like it's, which is equivalent to nowadays, like heroin, basically like, yeah, it's hard,

00:40:51.600 hard stuff. Yeah. Like that's the extent of how miserable she is. And like you said, she has this

00:40:58.260 need for attention and affection. And I think at this point, should we bring in her lifelong

00:41:04.280 friend and foil? I'm going to bring in the previous friend. This Regency era season has

00:41:10.360 had more sapphic stories in it than any other season I've ever done, which is interesting.

00:41:15.900 And I initially, I didn't think I'm going to do all these stories, but I just keep coming upon

00:41:21.160 them. But this is a chaotic bisexual story. Just so. In my opinion, I don't know about you. 1.00

00:41:26.520 yeah i've mixed i have mixed feelings on it um she certainly we've talked about in other previous

00:41:32.620 episodes like for instance mary wallstonecraft had like very passionate friendships with women

00:41:37.480 that people now interpret as like oh did she have romantic or sexual feelings for these women like

00:41:42.640 we know she didn't have sexual relationships with these women mary wallstonecraft because she wrote

00:41:46.600 very honestly about her life and her experiences but georgiana met a woman whose name was mary

00:41:55.700 I don't have the last name here.

00:41:58.360 Anyway, they met in Brighton and they became completely infatuated with each other, as you might with a crush or as you might with a new friend.

00:42:05.360 If you're somebody who's incredibly emotionally needy, both of them, they were so devoted to each other.

00:42:12.120 They became a metaphor.

00:42:13.520 They were frightened that the intensity of their friendship would become the subject of gossip.

00:42:18.100 Like they knew that they felt more strongly about each other than women usually did.

00:42:22.540 um and so part of this with Georgina I think is her unfillable need to be loved and when she met

00:42:33.000 somebody who loved her she got really happy about it no matter who that person was really um and I

00:42:40.660 think just at the time too like women even if it was just a friendship were writing to each other

00:42:46.740 in such effusive flowery language I could see Georgiana being somebody to like actually read

00:42:53.480 into that and being like oh no this is love like this is the real deal just because that's I think

00:43:00.100 the type of person she is like she doesn't feel anything in a subtle way it seems no and I don't

00:43:05.940 think I think if someone was flirting with her she'd be like they're in love with me like I don't

00:43:09.720 Yeah, we all have that for instance too.

00:43:12.960 So Amanda Foreman says about this friend, Mary,

00:43:16.140 whether and to what extent physical intimacy played a part in Georgina's

00:43:19.300 relationship with Mary is impossible to determine.

00:43:22.080 Several of her friendships contain an element of flirtatiousness.

00:43:25.040 It was a French habit she'd acquired from Madame de Polignac and Marie

00:43:28.440 Antoinette.

00:43:29.460 So it's interesting because there were those rumors about Marie Antoinette

00:43:31.980 and Madame de Polignac and their sort of flirtatious friendship and Georgina

00:43:36.160 hung out with them.

00:43:37.040 so it's it's certainly part of her story um here it says so even taking into taking hyperbole into

00:43:44.960 account Georgina's letters to Mary were more personal more intense clearly separating them

00:43:49.840 from her other correspondence so eventually the two of them just kind of they drifted apart but

00:43:55.500 yeah yeah is this the one that died of like tuberculosis yeah yeah okay yeah so that was

00:44:02.460 something that Georgiana took very hard and just kind of like tragically ended their relationship.

00:44:09.200 It's so hard to know, like, cause everything's kind of understood in, in relative to how we

00:44:16.160 know people who were just friends were writing to each other. So I don't know, I'm always a little

00:44:21.920 bit more hesitant to ascribe, you know, bisexuality or lesbian love affairs, but I think it's possible.

00:44:28.920 definitely. Yeah. It's, it's such a, and I've had like various like queer historians on the show

00:44:34.600 and stuff where it's like looking at these letters, like we're always just looking at it

00:44:38.560 through a modern lens, but what did it actually mean at that time? I don't know. Um, so we are

00:44:43.460 going to talk about her lifelong friend slash my relative. Um, not really, but maybe, um, but

00:44:52.160 she also, I don't think I've ever told you, sorry, this is one of the tangents.

00:44:56.820 my family thinks that we're related to lord byron he had a lot i don't know yeah i don't know how

00:45:05.480 far back we would have to go but uh we have byrons in our family and i was like looking into it again

00:45:10.600 the other day and i was like i have to tell ann foster uh lord byron hater about this and see if

00:45:16.100 she still wants to be friends with me i think if you have like one 18th byron in you that's just

00:45:21.420 enough to give you some like flair on joie de vivre i think if you've got any any more than that

00:45:26.940 yeah i'm not concerned but um thank you yeah well no there is a person coming up in this story who

00:45:36.300 has the last name foster and i was like foster me maybe it is her married last name but whatever

00:45:42.700 but she also makes friends with fox who is the he's a whig politician and he introduces her to

00:45:50.460 like politics and like that political life. And she, no one, actually, I'm sure people did do 0.77

00:45:56.240 have rumors that they had an affair. Again, she's not sleeping with other than her husband

00:46:00.560 until, until she has a son. But anyway, so she meets Charles Fox and he, she has this, like,

00:46:10.040 I feel like again, you know, in 21st century, like putting our ideas on people, but I feel like

00:46:15.820 she's got a big ADHD energy to me. She just like always wants to be doing something. She is like,

00:46:21.680 she's never able to just sit still and she has this energy. And so she like turns to drugs and

00:46:27.380 gambling and whatever. And I think he's like, what about politics? And she's like, yes. And

00:46:31.400 this like gives her a thing to do. And again, we're not going to get into the Whigs and Tories

00:46:35.900 of it all, but she becomes really interested in a genuine way in politics and helping out the Whig

00:46:41.580 party. And it's because she meets this guy, Charles Fox, who got along really well. Because

00:46:46.380 I want to let you know, I personally was like, Oh my God, I've heard this name. He's in my Google

00:46:51.140 doc. Like who cares? But here, so 18th century England was full of wits, connoisseurs, orators,

00:46:57.720 historians, drinkers, gamblers, rakes, and pranksters, but only Fox embodied all of those

00:47:02.320 things. I have that quote written down too. It's so good. So he, he did things like he experimented

00:47:09.800 with his hair color. He would powder his, like, this isn't like, you know, it's like powdered

00:47:13.760 wigs era. Like everything got like the gray, but he would powder his hair blue. He would powder his

00:47:17.660 hair red. He wore multicolored shoes and velvet frills. Um, so he, he was, I don't, I don't even

00:47:26.460 know. He's like Billy Porter. He's like out there just like wearing, he's like Harry Styles. He's,

00:47:30.120 he's a man wearing these amazing outfits and she's just like, Oh, he's doing backflips. He's

00:47:36.560 wearing sequins and he's getting elected yeah and she's like wait you can be into politics and also 0.87

00:47:42.240 wear cool outfits like i am in and down she's committed for the rest of her life she's like

00:47:47.580 all about wig politics and it's because this guy like he's wearing these outfits and he's also

00:47:53.640 genuinely passionate about politics so she's just like so this this gets her this is one of her

00:47:59.720 lifelong friends um she also i promise listeners we are going to get to her friend slash my relative

00:48:05.620 but she also wrote a novel around this time called The Sylph.

00:48:09.980 It was published as anonymously as A Young Lady,

00:48:14.540 similar to how Jane Austen wrote her book, like by a lady.

00:48:19.400 But this is, again, sort of Georgiana, like you just picture her just like she wants something.

00:48:24.880 She wants, she, motherhood is what she knows she should be doing,

00:48:28.800 and she's not able to do that. 0.80

00:48:29.920 So she's like, I'll do politics.

00:48:31.180 I'll do gambling.

00:48:32.200 I'll write a novel.

00:48:33.120 Like she's just trying to fill her life with things. 0.84

00:48:35.620 And now for a quick advertising break.

00:48:38.340 Welcome to the realms of peril and glory.

00:48:43.840 Explore the mechanically magical vistas of Vale,

00:48:48.060 the paranormal mysteries of liminal London,

00:48:50.880 and the cyberpunk chaos of Cyborg.

00:48:56.900 Be awed by our incredible guests from familiar shows like Oxventure and No Rolls Barred.

00:49:03.720 Search Realms of Peril and Glory to find out more

00:49:07.840 The war is over and both sides lost

00:49:14.900 Kingdoms were reduced to cinders

00:49:16.960 An army scattered like bones in the dust

00:49:20.120 Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world

00:49:24.600 Praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight

00:49:27.600 But in the shadow dark, the darkness always wins

00:49:31.740 this is old school adventuring

00:49:34.180 at it's most cruel

00:49:35.520 your torch ticks down in real time

00:49:37.940 and when that flame dies

00:49:39.320 something else rises to finish the job

00:49:41.620 this is a brutal rules light nightmare

00:49:43.900 with a story that emerges organically

00:49:46.600 based on the decisions that the characters make

00:49:49.220 this is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s

00:49:51.640 and man, it is so good to be back

00:49:53.920 join the Glass Cannon podcast

00:49:55.240 as we plunge into the shadow dark

00:49:57.000 every Thursday night at 8pm Eastern

00:49:59.040 on youtube.com slash the glass cannon

00:50:01.320 with the podcast version dropping the next day.

00:50:04.700 See what everybody's talking about

00:50:06.000 and join us in the dark.

00:50:12.000 Do you love Disney?

00:50:13.500 Do you love top 10 lists?

00:50:14.960 Then you're going to love our podcast, Disney Countdown.

00:50:17.680 Hi, I'm Megan the Magical Millennial.

00:50:19.660 And Biscuits, I'm Jeremy, a.k.a. Jarendell.

00:50:22.500 And we are the hosts of the hit Disney podcast,

00:50:24.600 Disney Countdown.

00:50:25.680 On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show,

00:50:28.380 we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney.

00:50:31.000 The parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore, there is nothing we don't cover on our show.

00:50:37.800 Right, Jeremy?

00:50:38.540 Ooh, girl, you know we are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed,

00:50:44.160 but you definitely need in your life.

00:50:45.760 So if you are looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts.

00:50:51.940 Ever get to the end of a podcast episode and think, now what?

00:50:55.840 Well, instead of scrolling through a million choices, try Something You Should Know.

00:51:01.000 I'm the host, Mike Carruthers, and every episode is packed with fascinating, useful, and surprising things you'll actually use in your life.

00:51:09.220 From human behavior, relationships, health, science, and everyday mysteries.

00:51:14.540 So while you're already in your podcast app, just search for Something You Should Know and listen to an episode right now.

00:51:22.180 Something You Should Know.

00:51:26.100 And we're back.

00:51:27.560 Yeah, and she, I mean, she writes over the course of her life.

00:51:30.220 So she writes this novel. It's a thinly veiled account of her own social circle. So it's

00:51:36.920 kind of understood to have real people with fake names in it. And it is never like openly connected

00:51:45.240 to her, but she is said to have like admitted in private, like, yeah, I wrote this book and

00:51:48.800 published it. So it's about an aristocratic bride seduced into wickedness by the taun.

00:51:54.480 so it exposes the corrupt morals of like the real life georgiana's social circle and i think it was

00:52:02.300 foreman who said it was written during one of the many low periods in her life when she was

00:52:06.100 attempting to reform her gambling vice and fast lifestyle it was published in 1778 but she was

00:52:13.820 also a poet she wrote later in her life a book of poetry including the passage of the mountain of

00:52:19.400 saint gothard um she also kept a journal and she wrote lots of letters like we talked about she

00:52:25.080 wrote to her mom every day to marie antoinette later in her life she writes to her children

00:52:31.100 so she has like a really rich literary history attached to her too she does and a lot of the

00:52:37.740 letters do still survive actually shout out there is a listener to this podcast i hope she's i hope

00:52:42.440 she's listening to this episode who is a descendant of georgiana her name is georgiana

00:52:47.680 and she she helped me with some stuff when i was writing my book i was trying to figure out

00:52:54.440 honestly it was wigs and tories based i was trying to figure out about the house of lords

00:52:57.820 and i just looked on instagram i'm like can anyone explain to me about the house of lords

00:53:01.700 and she's like well my father's in the house of lords so okay got it i was like thank you and

00:53:08.640 she's like oh so i am descended from georgiana i'm like oh oh my gosh so she's related to princess

00:53:13.220 is diana yeah in some way yeah so i forget why i mentioned that i just wanted to uh does she have

00:53:20.080 like a collection of writings or something yeah so she has the the letters i think are mostly in

00:53:26.040 various archives instead of georgiana she has in the break between episode one and two i'll look

00:53:30.820 up because she said she has a couple of things from georgiana yeah i think chathworth has most

00:53:35.480 of them now yeah like she wrote so much and a lot of the stuff is still there although in this like

00:53:40.180 way i keep coming across in this podcast some of her victorian descendants like blacked out

00:53:45.220 some letters some of the like i hate the victorians the more i learn about them

00:53:50.400 burning diaries like let's not i think i would love to have you on an episode where we're just

00:53:58.840 like so these things the victorians did yeah yeah everything but yeah i did an episode um it was

00:54:06.720 when we did the lady audacity podcast and we just did an episode on victoria versus her children 0.68

00:54:12.160 just being an asshole to her kids that was a that was a very cathartic episode yeah the victorians 0.77

00:54:18.280 this is actually this is i want to just pause in this moment um so the victorians like victoria 0.99

00:54:24.120 herself was just like let's write not correct but like english society was getting so much of just

00:54:31.660 like, um, gambling and opium and like debts and like all this stuff. And she's just like,

00:54:37.320 let's just make it all be like morally. I want England victory. I want England to be like a

00:54:42.380 morally correct. And she's like, I'm married to my husband. We're going to have children.

00:54:46.060 There's no scandal here. England should be really like, meanwhile, she's like literally an 0.99

00:54:51.260 nymphomaniac, but, um, but she set up this kind of understanding we still have of like,

00:54:56.980 england is like posh and refined and the royal family is like good and we should look up like

00:55:02.260 that in georgiana's time no in georgiana's time it was just wild like everybody was on opium

00:55:08.940 gambling all the time having kids were literally out like this the regency era when we look at

00:55:16.920 things like bridgerton for instance it's very much like how the victorians made it seem like

00:55:22.320 the regency era was when it was actually like just like live fast die young yeah yeah that's

00:55:29.200 what it was actually it was literally a tits out era so she's yeah so she's again just Georgina

00:55:37.940 just some other cool stuff she did so she became involved in wig politics um she also her husband

00:55:43.660 went off to like fight there's I don't know we're in the like French Revolution era I didn't look

00:55:49.360 into what he was actually doing, except for letting Lady Jersey stay in his tent with him.

00:55:54.780 Lady Jersey, who was also one of the lovers of George Prince of Wales, a.k.a. Prinney.

00:56:00.200 She was the one who chose Carolina Brunswick to be his wife. She's head bitch, Lady Jersey. I was 1.00

00:56:06.300 just like, Lady Jersey, what are you doing in this book? God damn it. There she is. Anyway, 1.00

00:56:10.720 so Georgina and the other wives, they went like on the campaign and they were, they like dressed 0.94

00:56:14.960 in these sort of like soldier outfits but for ladies because she's like how can we support our

00:56:19.280 men i know outfits and so and it actually was really effective um nothing like it had ever

00:56:26.380 been witnessed before milliner shops began making fans bearing georgiana's portrait which sold in

00:56:31.460 the hundreds like this just made her more of a celebrity by like wearing these kind of

00:56:36.700 soldier outfits to support her man this is i think around the same time marie antoinette

00:56:42.140 like she started doing like an outfit it was like a la devonshire which was like so they started

00:56:47.160 wearing kind of like british style military jackets yep yeah she set trends i'm trying to 0.93

00:56:53.460 find there were a couple i wrote down one of them was devonshire brown so she also popularized

00:56:58.940 the color brown she invented the color brown y'all like before pantone before sad beige mom

00:57:05.880 influencers there was georgiana wearing brown and the colors of the wigs were blue and buff

00:57:11.200 which is like I guess beige yeah yeah and when she gets into her political activity which there's 0.87

00:57:20.360 more to come there as well but that fashion is part of that as well and she starts to look

00:57:25.680 towards like American military uniforms so that would have been the blue and buff like the khaki

00:57:31.700 color of the rebels in America so that's another thing she brings in eventually so she's she's got

00:57:38.880 really keen instincts about sort of PR type things. And we're going to see that play out

00:57:43.940 more and more, but it's interesting in an, like now there's so many people who are online being

00:57:47.980 like, Hey, I can help you with your branding. I can help you whatever. I can help you get more

00:57:51.820 followers. And she just instinctively is like, Hey, I'm going to do this and it's going to be

00:57:56.120 effective. People are going to do follow me. And they just do like, she's just so she knows just

00:58:00.980 what to do and when it's. Yeah. And I mean, it extends beyond fashion to like interior design

00:58:08.560 and she brings like sev sevra porcelain from france to derby and then the english porcelain

00:58:16.540 industry like kicks off because they're copying this french stuff that jordana loves so yeah it's

00:58:21.360 every little aspect of society um she also was a crystal girl did you see this no she loved she 0.94

00:58:28.740 loved rocks and crystals she had a collection of minerals and she like that was one of the hats

00:58:34.880 she tried on, she was like a scientific mineral girl and her collection was so big that, um,

00:58:44.200 Chatsworth still has it. She had one selection or one specimen of quartz that was over three feet

00:58:50.140 high. And she eventually was like, one of the things she taught to her kids was mineralogy.

00:58:56.920 She loves crystals. I love, I love how multifaceted she is, honestly. Cause I think,

00:59:02.160 I think she's a person. There's so much in her story. Like to me, before I read this book,

00:59:07.060 I just knew her as like fashion. Like I know that she had these big hats and I knew that there was 0.56

00:59:11.260 kind of this like scandalous personal life. But then I started reading, I'm like, Whoa,

00:59:14.060 she was like so influential in politics. And now like, and she's influential in science and she 0.97

00:59:18.300 was a writer. It's like, she's so well-rounded. Like people don't know what to do about a woman

00:59:22.880 in history who has like, there's so many men who Leonardo da Vinci or whatever. It's just like,

00:59:28.640 wow, he was an artist and a scientist. And like, but it's like a woman can only be one thing, 0.99

00:59:32.840 but it's like, she was all of these things and a mess and a gambling. Yeah. I support women's 1.00

00:59:39.060 rights and women's wrongs. Yeah. And she loved to travel. That's where she picked up a lot of her 1.00

00:59:44.940 minerals, her rocks and mineral collection, but also inspiration for her writings. Um,

00:59:50.280 she loved like the Alps specifically. Um, and so that's where she wrote a lot of her most like

00:59:55.420 evocative fiction and poetry so yeah she is a well-rounded renaissance woman i guess you could

01:00:02.200 say and then she meets elizabeth foster brackets no relation to me but brackets may be relation to

01:00:10.020 me so elizabeth foster is she's married to a guy whose last name is foster who's like an irish lord

01:00:16.380 and they they're they're estranged um she and the irish lord are not together anymore i do have some

01:00:22.440 connection to ireland so i'm just like maybe it's like if i'm related to anyone it's to her

01:00:27.620 husband yeah i don't think you want to be related i'd rather not but i'm just excited when i don't

01:00:32.360 know if you've ever seen a mata show up in a historical story wherever where would they be

01:00:37.660 i don't know italy or like poland maybe yeah yeah i've never encountered one in the wild i'm just

01:00:44.900 excited i'm excited to see a foster show up so elizabeth foster explain explain oh where to start

01:00:51.520 so they meet um they meet in bath yep or i'm i don't know how georgiana herself would have said

01:00:59.520 it i don't know um so they meet in 1782 bess has been married since 1776 but she and her husband

01:01:11.020 separate in 1781 and at this time she's being prevented from seeing her two children

01:01:18.120 by her husband so this is like the backdrop to her and Georgina who hasn't yet had any children

01:01:26.080 so I assume they trauma bonded like immediately is my assumption also just in terms of Georgina

01:01:32.160 you know she's like this princess Diana sort of tall striking not conventionally pretty but like

01:01:37.080 gorgeous person you know who Georgina is to me a bit it's like a Bella Hadid type person where

01:01:41.980 It's like, wow, they're so like elegant and like beautiful, but not like pretty.

01:01:47.520 Bess, for that is what she is known as, Bess Foster, is pretty. 0.93

01:01:51.840 She's like hot. 1.00

01:01:52.880 She's like an Elizabeth Taylor. 1.00

01:01:54.060 She's like black hair, pale skin. 0.84

01:01:55.860 In the Keira Knightley movie, she's played by Hayley Atwell.

01:02:00.740 Hayley Atwell.

01:02:01.900 Agent Carter of the Captain America franchise.

01:02:03.960 guys. So I get that like curvaceous, like pretty face, maternal, like kind of milf energy. If I can

01:02:13.880 say that. Well, no. And I feel like in the movie as in life, like Georgina is like, like a Keira

01:02:19.060 Knightley, like a princess Dane, like tall and very like willowy thin. And then Bess is like

01:02:23.840 curvaceous, like voluptuous. So like, Oh, that's perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Two sides of the same era of

01:02:31.080 womanhood I don't know yeah so she's gorgeous and nice and she so there's so much written about her

01:02:36.900 by Georgina's mom and other people who find Georgina's children Bess is very affected she's

01:02:45.600 very like um I don't know how to just people some people see her as like very obviously manipulating

01:02:52.660 and being like oh like playing up her like coquettish ways and stuff some people find that 0.52

01:02:57.700 really grating and really irritating. And, but Georgiana is just like, she takes everyone at 0.98

01:03:03.940 face value and she's just like, she's great. She loves me. I need that love. Let's go.

01:03:10.000 Yeah. Bess, I think Bess, you can say she, she knew how to work a room and play people off of 1.00

01:03:15.800 herself or others in order to get what she needed. And so Foreman writes that Bess did 0.99

01:03:22.900 love Georgiana they became companions and support systems to each other but she says best her love 0.72

01:03:29.500 for Georgiana was that of a celebrity stalker she wanted to be Georgiana and possess everything she

01:03:35.360 had including the duke yikes but this is kind of what everyone around her saw that yeah because

01:03:43.980 what was happening in Georgiana was just like no this is my friend and she loves me it's like

01:03:48.000 needed the level of love you get from an obsessive stan like she yeah thrived off of i don't know

01:03:56.580 they developed this like really intense lifelong like for the rest of their life

01:04:01.880 yeah it's basically a menage a trois is how it's written about she moves to chatsworth with

01:04:08.360 georgina and eventually like yeah and she wants to be her so much so that she sleeps with her

01:04:14.780 husband so this is where we get into the like is this a bisexual polyamorous situation yeah

01:04:23.720 yeah or I don't think you can call it that when Georgina's husband hates Georgina it's not

01:04:30.740 when one person right right I don't think you can call it a polyamorous thing but Georgina and

01:04:38.200 best love each other were they I don't know it reminds me of um you know it's all speculation

01:04:43.840 but like the movie, The Favorite, which is also based on speculation.

01:04:47.300 But it's like, I think if Bess had thought that having sex with Georgina would make Georgina 0.51

01:04:51.600 like her better than she would do it. 0.99

01:04:52.920 And Georgina would be like, oh, she wants to have sex with me. 0.99

01:04:55.260 That means she likes me. 0.99

01:04:56.480 Let's do it.

01:04:56.960 Like, I don't, I could see it happening, but you know, no one ever really could.

01:05:01.480 Yeah.

01:05:01.780 It's definitely not like, not everyone is into it for the same reasons, but Bess almost 0.97

01:05:06.760 like orchestrates a love triangle where she's getting a lot of attention from all sides,

01:05:11.900 which I find very interesting.

01:05:13.840 And I just, to be a fly on the wall, you know, and see how this played out in real life would

01:05:19.900 be so fascinating because she moves into Chatsworth.

01:05:24.960 She is not only Georgina's best friend and confidant, but the Duke's official mistress.

01:05:30.780 And so she kind of takes on some of that social hostessing duty that Georgina is also doing.

01:05:38.520 So Foreman writes on her website about the Duke, you know, he ought to have married a

01:05:43.120 self-confident, mature woman whose sole aim in life was to make him happy. Instead, he chose a

01:05:48.420 needy adolescent whose clinginess repulsed him. Yet when she sought public adulation as compensation,

01:05:54.480 he felt wounded and bitter, which I guess she credits to being the reason he was so open to

01:05:59.960 having someone like Bess come into their relationship. He kind of gets the best of both 1.00

01:06:03.860 worlds. But she and whatever's going on, she is getting something she needs from her friendship

01:06:09.560 up with Bess. I just like this detail. Look, cause we have a lot of letters between them and

01:06:13.620 they use code words. Like, like you do, if you're like with your close friends, like you just have

01:06:19.020 like a nickname for like, for different people. So they call the Duke Canis, which has to do with

01:06:24.980 like his love of dogs. Um, and Amanda Foreman writes for reasons, which have never been clear.

01:06:30.340 Georgiana was Mrs. Rat and Bess was Racky. Okay. So these are their nicknames to each other.

01:06:37.540 This stuff doesn't have to make sense.

01:06:39.060 You know, I'm sure it was an inside joke.

01:06:41.440 They're just having a nice time together. 1.00

01:06:42.920 But Bess insinuates herself into their life. 0.58

01:06:45.340 So, and again, just to keep track of everything, Georgina still has not had a child. 0.99

01:06:49.040 So she's still just like under incredible amounts of pressure.

01:06:52.900 She's had like several miscarriages and things.

01:06:55.760 She goes off to bath for like, you know, treatments and stuff.

01:07:00.800 Like she's doing everything she can to try to conceive a child.

01:07:03.280 And at some point in here, her husband's illegitimate daughter, Charlotte, comes to live with them. 0.63

01:07:08.980 Uh-huh. Yeah, in 1780.

01:07:11.540 So the daughter is named Charlotte Williams.

01:07:15.360 And it's the custom of the time to, if you have an illegitimate child, you can take the father's Christian name and use it as a surname.

01:07:25.000 And the Duke's first name is William.

01:07:27.760 so everyone knew and he charlotte is brought to chatsworth she lives with georgiana before she

01:07:37.360 has children of her own but georgiana doesn't really seem to care she seems to be happy about

01:07:42.320 it she just wants to be she wants to be a mother and now she can be one yeah and she writes that

01:07:49.120 she's vastly pleased with her husband's illegitimate daughter and of course she's writing

01:07:53.080 to her mom through all of this. So Lady Spencer is a little bit more candid. She writes to Georgina,

01:07:59.220 I hope you have not talked of her to people about Charlotte. And Georgina comes back to her mom and

01:08:06.620 she says, but she is the best humored little thing you ever saw. So like, there's just like

01:08:12.020 this toddler or young girl in her house and like bringing her joy for the first time. So she's

01:08:18.340 just rolling with the punches. Yeah. It's every time I think I know what to expect from her or 1.00

01:08:26.220 from this story, it's never that. It's like, she's delighted to have this illegitimate daughter in

01:08:31.180 the house. Um, just back, back to the fashions of it all. Um, I want to mention, so probably the 0.97

01:08:38.120 most famous portrait of Georgina is one where she's wearing this preposterous hat. And I'm

01:08:42.780 going to describe the hat it's so chic i love it so it's called the picture hat so wide brim hats

01:08:50.260 worn with a large sash and adorned with drooping feathers so in this portrait which is by

01:08:54.880 gainsborough who's like the portrait artist of the time so in this portrait she has she designed

01:09:00.800 this hat herself apparently this is a picture of her own design perching it stylishly in the

01:09:05.480 side of her head um after this portrait was put on exhibition women up and down the country

01:09:10.080 ordered their milliners to make them a copy of the Duchess of Devonshire hat which is like I want

01:09:16.280 to say it's like a meter it's huge it's the biggest like it's kind of off to the side which

01:09:24.160 her hair is so big because it's full of secrets I don't know what this hat is attached to but it's

01:09:30.800 like cocked to one side it's it's defying gravity is what it's doing yeah yeah it's like it's sort

01:09:37.520 if you're like if you look up Georgina

01:09:39.600 Duchess of Devonshire like this portrait will come

01:09:41.620 up I'm sure but if you picture sort of

01:09:43.580 like the Mad Hatter's hat in Alice in Wonderland

01:09:45.780 it's bigger than that

01:09:46.900 what if that hat was

01:09:49.680 bigger than your head

01:09:51.520 like it's so big I again

01:09:53.440 I'm excited to watch the Keira Knightley film

01:09:55.140 I'm gonna do it for Patreon later after we've done

01:09:57.500 this episode but I looked up the pictures

01:09:59.540 and I was like in that film they did not get

01:10:01.260 the hat proportions right from what I can tell

01:10:03.360 none of the hats were as big as the hats were

01:10:05.700 but it would have been too silly to make a movie right exactly they could have done it in a comedic

01:10:12.220 way let's actually that would be so fun do like a remake but just everything's absurd because it was

01:10:17.820 yeah the wigs are really good in that movie i will say she has this one curly wig that she wears

01:10:23.260 in some of the political campaign scenes it's so good and she has the big hat with that so i think

01:10:29.040 it was the size of the hat was sacrificed but in exchange we got some really good wig moments which

01:10:34.880 you don't always sorry w-i-g wig not w-i-g i'm here for w-i-g wigs i love i love a historical

01:10:42.300 film there's a podcast called frock flicks i don't know if you know them they're on instagram too and

01:10:47.200 they just like they're like costume experts and they watch films and they like rate how accurate

01:10:51.400 are the costumes and when they are excited about wigs they're like the frizziness of this wig like

01:10:56.180 they really capture the frizziness of like 1860s paris like when they're excited i'm like i'm gonna

01:11:00.800 watch this film because they said this wig is so good. So I'm sure they would like these wigs,

01:11:05.580 WIGs. Yeah. So I wanted to mention the hat partially because it's iconic and partially

01:11:10.880 because Georgina is still the it girl of all of England, like through all of everything that's

01:11:16.300 happening, like all of her like chaotic personal life and stuff. Like she's everyone, every time

01:11:21.120 she steps out in public and you said like, she lives in London mostly. It's like, what is she

01:11:25.760 wearing? Can we copy it? Like, it's exactly like Marie Antoinette energy. So she wears a different

01:11:30.700 every time she's seen because and that becomes useful to her because at this time she is still

01:11:37.420 she's active in politics she's not embarking on like her biggest political appearances yet but

01:11:42.820 she is making public appearances to support wigs w-h-i-g and specifically charles fox so 1780 and

01:11:50.920 1782 she's campaigning um not as openly as she will eventually but she's making appearances she's

01:11:57.880 being seen. And all of that just keeps her in the papers. People are talking about her fashion,

01:12:02.780 her social life, the parties she hosts, the people she's seen with. So it just propels all of that

01:12:08.580 further. And it's a really unique thing. Like we're used to seeing that now, you know, like

01:12:14.340 when there's an election going on, like Beyonce shows up at a campaign rally for whoever,

01:12:18.980 like we're used to seeing a celebrity attach themselves to politics, but this was unheard

01:12:24.160 of and this time for a woman to be involved even to this level of just standing there silently in 0.99

01:12:28.840 an outfit at a rally like yeah she was doing something that women had historically never 0.95

01:12:33.020 really done before right but she was no one hated her for it right yeah it didn't it didn't backfire

01:12:40.360 against her until 1784 so that year there's a general election Georgina is 27 and she takes

01:12:50.700 a more visible role than she has in the past.

01:12:54.360 I think she has requested.

01:12:56.380 I think she's told to take it.

01:12:57.540 I don't think she takes it.

01:12:59.000 She and Charles Fox, they were like,

01:13:01.080 they can cut this plan.

01:13:02.640 I think you stepping up is going to be helpful.

01:13:05.600 And she's like, anything, I'm like a hundred P.

01:13:08.340 I'm here for the wigs.

01:13:09.400 Like whatever you need me to do, like I will do it.

01:13:11.620 And so she, she shows up in public.

01:13:13.920 She, she doesn't just stand there, 0.99

01:13:15.640 but she's like actively going door to door. 0.98

01:13:18.040 She's campaigning in the streets 1.00

01:13:19.320 and she's going to political meetings which a woman could do asterisk if she was campaigning 0.87

01:13:27.260 for like somebody in her family and just like showing up to show support but like no this was 0.96

01:13:33.000 politically based it was because she supported the wig party and it wasn't just throwing parties

01:13:40.340 being a hostess it was door to door like going she was she would walk around london until she

01:13:47.880 had blisters on her feet talking to people getting out the vote for charles fox talking to like the

01:13:54.140 ordinary people like i want to ask at this time the only people who could vote were land-owning

01:13:59.760 men yes so she's not like going into like the slums but she's going into like places where like

01:14:05.200 it give you a picture it's the effect is like it's political it's not you know charitable but

01:14:10.180 it's like princess diana visiting the aids ward it's like someone who's so like going and meeting

01:14:18.040 with somebody who you would never think that she would meet with like she's just meeting with the

01:14:22.680 everyday people and this is it's i mean imagine imagine like beyonce taylor swift going door to

01:14:27.380 door in like philadelphia just being like hey have you registered to vote like she's so untouchable

01:14:32.860 and famous and she just goes to your house to be like hey can i count on your vote like like

01:14:37.440 Beyonce what are you doing here like it was incredible and this is the point where we've

01:14:42.860 talked about like the attention she gets is largely positive until now her actions in openly

01:14:48.580 campaigning politically are deemed like not just taboo breaking but like a little transgressive

01:14:56.900 so at this point she starts to be subjected to like satirical cartoonists they draw pictures

01:15:03.560 of her they write about her in the press in a negative way probably for the first time i would 0.67

01:15:08.580 say there is this characterization of her like selling giving kisses in exchange for votes is

01:15:15.980 the big one they call this yeah exactly so it's it's akin to like they're accusing her of basically

01:15:22.020 sex work yeah um and what um when amanda forman talks about this in her book she's saying like 0.64

01:15:27.420 like politicians today like she would kiss a baby or whatever but she was never just being like i

01:15:34.960 you know i taylor swift will kiss you if you vote for whoever it's like but it's a way how can we

01:15:41.620 like how many times you see this now but also then in history of just like how like this woman is 1.00

01:15:46.560 becoming too influential how can we take her down a peg it's like oh we'll call her a slut 0.99

01:15:50.200 exactly and in the process then they are calling the duke a cuckold literally left at home like 0.99

01:15:56.940 holding the baby while his wife's out there being politically active because remember he is

01:16:01.560 at this point they did have a baby by the time that this election's going on in 1784 it's like

01:16:08.300 this is their daughter who um 83 i think she finally has her first child i know and she

01:16:14.320 calls her georgiana and i am obsessed in history it never happens anymore when a woman has a

01:16:20.720 daughter and calls it after herself i always say bring that back yeah back naming your daughter

01:16:25.400 after yourself. It's so cute. I mean, I was thinking like women have this with our middle

01:16:29.600 names. We pass those on down the line, but the first name is definitely more rare. Um, yeah. 0.70

01:16:35.440 So she has her first child, Georgiana called little G in 1783. Two years later, she has Harriet

01:16:44.200 who they call Harrio H A R R Y O, which I love. That's so cute. That's so cute. And also side

01:16:51.860 note prior to at a similar time, but before she actually has her first daughter, Bess Foster has

01:16:57.160 a child and the father. Yes. Okay. Yeah. There's a lot happening. Like it's a dual narrative kind

01:17:03.380 of situation. So Bess. So Bess becomes pregnant via the Duke, but she doesn't want to tell 0.82

01:17:10.560 Georgina because she thinks she'll be mad at her, which I feel like Georgina would never be mad at

01:17:14.520 her but best doesn't know that yet so best flees to um the continent yeah and she falls in love

01:17:21.640 with guess who axel von fursen no she doesn't that's a lie she promptly fell in love with a

01:17:27.360 handsome swedish diplomat count fursen the count her i'm from versailles where his departure had

01:17:33.040 caused marie antonette to cry in front of her attend i'm not saying he fell in love back with

01:17:36.700 her right right right but she fell in love with him i do picture jamie dornan whenever we talk

01:17:42.700 about Axel von Fersen. So that probably colors my understanding. I was excited to have Axel von

01:17:47.400 Fersen show. So anyway, Bess goes to Naples. She has her child and she, there's another French guy

01:17:55.140 and she claims that this French guy was the father. So she never says who the father really

01:17:58.600 is, but she's just, so this is where like as much as Bess was like up there with Georgina living the 0.59

01:18:03.040 high life, when she becomes pregnant, she goes to Naples, gives birth in some like peasant shack

01:18:07.820 and it's kind of living not the exciting life that Georgina is living. 0.53

01:18:12.680 And then when Georgina finally has a child, 0.81

01:18:14.560 like that solidifies her position as like the wife,

01:18:18.640 although she needs a son still, but finally what she wanted for so long. 0.72

01:18:23.060 She has a child. Thank God.

01:18:24.240 Right. So yeah, Bess has a kid. I think it's 1785. 0.94

01:18:28.220 So Georgina at this point has the two daughters,

01:18:30.780 but they don't really count because they can't inherit. 0.74

01:18:33.800 So essentially she still hasn't done her duty.

01:18:36.980 So it would be another two years before Georgina finally has her son.

01:18:41.540 But it's interesting, like she still continued to write to Bess

01:18:45.060 while she was away having the Dukes.

01:18:47.600 She has two children by him.

01:18:49.100 And after the second one is born,

01:18:51.440 there's a letter from Georgina where she writes to her,

01:18:54.520 Dear Bess, I know you are safe and therefore not hurt.

01:18:57.780 Always write to him if you have not time to both, for both.

01:19:02.940 So she's saying, if you have to choose between writing to me

01:19:05.420 or my husband, the father of your child,

01:19:07.620 you should pick him because I just,

01:19:09.800 I'm Georgiana and I need everyone

01:19:11.440 to be happy around me all the time.

01:19:13.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:19:15.080 Like that's part of her thing too.

01:19:16.300 It's like she wants,

01:19:17.740 she needs this love and attention

01:19:18.980 from people all the time.

01:19:20.240 But she also wants- 0.84

01:19:21.740 She's like a people-taser. 0.97

01:19:23.080 No, she is. 0.99

01:19:23.760 She's sort of like the child of divorce 1.00

01:19:25.160 who just like wants everyone

01:19:26.780 to get along all the time. 1.00

01:19:28.140 Like she, so she's always doing 0.68

01:19:29.720 whatever she can to make everybody

01:19:31.240 to not have arguments.

01:19:32.680 whether that's raising your husband's illegitimate child from a previous relationship or

01:19:38.240 eventually letting Bess's children who initially get fostered out to other families but Georgina

01:19:44.500 lets them come to Chatsworth and be raised alongside her own children with the Duke so

01:19:50.480 they're like half siblings and they're basically treated the same as as if they were the Duke's

01:19:56.080 legitimate children there's this and more children become involved which I'll get into probably in

01:20:00.440 part too. But back to the politics, I just want to mention some outfits. So Georgiana was doing

01:20:05.960 this, but there's some other women. So the Duchess of Portland, Lady Jersey, Lady Carlyle, 1.00

01:20:10.100 Mrs. Boovery, and Three Ladies Waldegrave were among the people parading around, like

01:20:14.840 drumming up the votes for the wigs. And they were wearing their blue and buff. And they had added a

01:20:19.660 thing, which is foxtails in their hats. There is a fabulous outfit in the Keira Knightley movie with

01:20:25.280 some foxtails involved. It's so good. And this of course gets everybody wanting, everyone starts

01:20:29.960 getting foxtails in their hats because it's just like i saw regina george wearing a foxtail in her

01:20:33.380 hat so i'm gonna wear a foxtail i wonder if this impacted like the ecosystem in britain at all if

01:20:38.520 we could dig that out well i'm just like did ostrichists like what did they become endangered

01:20:43.660 people plucking their feathers all the time right so this is where like just in terms of the this 0.94

01:20:49.280 election 1784 so um the three themes of the like anti-georgiana slander were like she was selling 0.98

01:20:55.600 her body for votes she was charles fox's mistress and she was betraying her rank in sex by her 0.76

01:21:01.220 quote undignified behavior yeah and she knows that this is being written about her she writes

01:21:07.980 either in a journal or in a letter she says i'm really so vexed though i don't say so and she

01:21:13.100 spells though t-h-o like as if she's texting which i really like i'm really so vexed though i don't

01:21:18.660 say so at the abuse in the newspapers that i have no heart left it is very hard they should single

01:21:24.180 me out when all the women of my side do as much, but she's the, she's the star that shines the

01:21:30.080 brightest. So much like a Diana, she kind of has this target on her back for them.

01:21:35.580 Exactly. Like you could be like, Oh my God, Mrs. So-and-so is out doing the vote and everyone's

01:21:39.320 like, who cares? But it's like Georgina, the person that you've been writing every day about

01:21:43.160 for the last 10 years. Like that's a, that's a Meghan Markle parallel right there. If I've ever

01:21:46.760 seen one, like if she does it, we have so many things to say, but Kate Middleton comes along 0.96

01:21:51.560 two years later and does it and it's fine no exactly like they wanted an excuse to hate her

01:21:56.780 but also this is because like her new do you know the movie um strictly ballroom the oh it's

01:22:03.560 oh my god so it's like Baz Luhrmann's first movie and it's ballroom dancers and this guy comes in 0.99

01:22:08.460 and he like introduces new steps and everyone's like new steps because they're Australian anyway

01:22:13.660 they're like new steps new and they're all just like shocked that this guy's doing new steps in

01:22:17.240 ballroom. So I just feel like it's out there just being like, like a new way of campaigning. And

01:22:21.900 everyone's just like, what? Like kissing babies going door to door. Like this is Tories have

01:22:25.820 never done that. Wigs have never done that. Like she's inventing the kind of way that people 1.00

01:22:30.140 campaign politically now and it's shocking and it's effective. And that's why they're attacking

01:22:34.880 her because it is swinging people's minds. It's what they call now tall poppy syndrome. Like,

01:22:39.980 and that's something that gets attached to Taylor Swift a lot too, is like, you can be successful

01:22:45.120 and beautiful and celebrated until you start to outpace everybody else. And then you are the

01:22:50.540 tallest poppy and we have to find a way to cut you down. And so that's at the time she's, she's 0.99

01:22:57.000 finally having children. That's also what she's dealing with. I, you could not pay me enough

01:23:01.260 money to be in this situation as fun as I think her life was like the psychological turmoil alone

01:23:07.000 would break me. No. And just to be clear, like she's doing all this stuff. It's like,

01:23:11.140 she's found politics. She's got children, but it's like, she's still gambling and taking drugs all

01:23:14.700 the time. Like that is how she is dealing with this stress still. Um, but I do want to mention

01:23:21.440 something fun she does, which is, um, she sponsored the first ever hot air balloon. 0.91

01:23:26.380 Heck yeah. Um, so the invention of the hot air balloon was, so this is like 1783, um,

01:23:33.580 the Montgolfier brothers astounded the court at Versailles by floating a 60 foot balloon,

01:23:38.440 6,000 feet in the air. And then people really excited about it. And so she brought the first

01:23:42.620 hot air balloon to England and there was a hot air balloon party. So she's always on the cutting

01:23:46.980 edge of, you were saying like the rocks and like the mineral, like she's super, she's a,

01:23:51.220 she's a lady in step. Cause it's the enlightenment too. Like that's also going on. And she eventually

01:23:55.600 kind of, she sort of runs a salon. So she is intellectual. Um, but she also happens to wear

01:24:02.280 hot air balloons. I'm imagining in her hair at the same time. I feel like, I don't know if helium 0.97

01:24:07.260 was like a thing people knew about, but I feel like if it was, she would have like actual balloons

01:24:10.520 floating, bombing overhead. But speaking for fashion, speaking for fashion in this era,

01:24:16.560 actually, we were talking about this election stuff. Like, guess what? I believe they lost,

01:24:20.820 but right. The wigs? Yeah. It's a great question. I feel like they, it was not a resounding success,

01:24:27.980 but honestly, I kind of skipped over all the wigs and Tories pages. So let me see here. After the

01:24:32.500 election, she continues to support the wigs, although more privately. She also, her relationship

01:24:37.460 with Prinny becomes political. She's kind of his advisor while he is backing the wigs. So she's 1.00

01:24:43.800 also whispering in his ear as well, which I love. I love that. And, but she's also being a fashion

01:24:49.600 girly because this is, um, if you're, if you're listening to this in parallel with my Marie

01:24:53.580 Antoinette episodes, this is where she introduces the muslin gown. Yeah. So this is around the same

01:24:58.260 time that, um, Marie Antoinette was painted by Elizabeth Vigée Lebrun in the like, what I call 0.84

01:25:03.960 the podcast the fuck dress um it's just sort of like it's like a white simple muslin dress and 0.83

01:25:09.360 people in paris were just like i can't believe the queen is wearing this this is basically 1.00

01:25:13.000 undergarments this is shocking this is also anti-french how dare you usurp our silk industry 0.69

01:25:18.460 by buying cotton anyway so she started wearing the muslin gown um it was inspired by what women 0.56

01:25:23.860 like creole women in the west indies were wearing because it's hot there um anyway so she introduces 0.53

01:25:29.680 this into into london society and then also there's a minor scandal when one of her seamstresses 0.54

01:25:35.140 was bribed to reveal her latest design could you imagine this happening to i don't even know 1.00

01:25:40.980 several ladies paid for the drawings each thinking she was the only one because then that way they 1.00

01:25:48.260 would know and they could like be fashionable yeah for her that's so funny exposed several 1.00

01:25:53.820 weeks later when they arrived at a ball wearing the same dress you look stupid that's so funny 0.99

01:26:00.480 it reminds me of diana's wedding dress designers they made like fully decoy dresses not because 0.99

01:26:06.800 i guess people would copy but because the press would find out if they weren't careful

01:26:10.560 yeah they made like fake wedding dresses so that if people found out yeah there's a one

01:26:14.880 in three chance they would spoil the wrong dress yeah um and then i believe speaking of the french 0.75

01:26:21.380 revolution she went she's like let's go on a trip to paris during the national assembly smart she

01:26:28.440 just needs to be where all the action is i think she clearly wasn't well it's weird because the

01:26:34.600 wigs are the like quote-unquote progressive party so i think the french revolution but like pre-french

01:26:39.340 revolution it's just kind of like hey let's be like america let's have like let's just make things

01:26:43.800 a bit cooler for everybody she was on the side of that the like intellectual pre-french revolution

01:26:49.020 type people. She's like, yeah, I support this as a wig. This is cool. I'm into it. Even though

01:26:53.040 I'm friends with Marie Antoinette, I get along with everybody. I'm a people pleaser.

01:26:57.700 It's a little idealistic for sure. But she literally goes to Paris during the estates

01:27:02.140 general. Um, and it's a bit much, um, but I'm just kind of looking at what I've highlighted

01:27:09.440 here, but basically they were there. It was getting a bit intense and her husband is like,

01:27:13.260 what if we leave? And she, but she was like too afraid of her creditors. I think this is part of

01:27:18.160 she left oh i see um she feared her creditors more than the semi-literate revolutionaries

01:27:24.860 sure she must have felt untouchable too that must have been part of it yeah so i believe

01:27:31.180 look at like in your notes you would have this but i think she was pregnant during the time in

01:27:37.080 paris like this is when she has her son i think so she gives birth to her son william in 1790

01:27:44.060 yeah so this is like i think there's something she went to she went they were in france she was

01:27:49.820 pregnant and then it's like her husband went back for basically her sister harriet was in some sort

01:27:55.880 of scandal her husband had to kind of calm down but they're like it's too dangerous like she's

01:28:00.020 had so many miscarriages they're like we can't put her in a boat when she's pregnant so then

01:28:03.540 she stayed in paris where it's like okay so i'll just give birth during the french revolution i

01:28:07.940 guess crazy but she does um and she has a son finally a son yeah she has done her job

01:28:17.720 five years after her second daughter is born so 1790 she gives birth to william i think he's the

01:28:24.580 earl of hartington so they call him heart h-a-r-t again these nicknames her children little g harry

01:28:32.320 and heart yeah cute I like it and so she's fully in her mom era after this point and she again like

01:28:42.140 Marie Antoinette she follows Jean-Jacques Rousseau who writes about child rearing in the natural way

01:28:49.720 and how children breastfeeds her own children and stuff yes everybody she like really believes that

01:28:55.900 if hey I'm affectionate towards my children they will be better off which is radical for the time

01:29:01.020 but it's also princess diana right it's like she hugged william and harry and everyone's like

01:29:06.280 hugging a royal like yeah like what if i smother my children in affection maybe that will make

01:29:12.680 them happy like yeah and it works uh her parents or her kids like they do not grow up feeling like

01:29:18.840 their mom is distant she's very involved in their everyday lives she writes letters to them

01:29:22.860 in her blood did you see this no she uses her blood to write notes to her children when she

01:29:29.160 is away okay i think we're gonna because we'll explain in the next episode why yes he loves her

01:29:35.640 children so much why is she away we'll get to that there's also going to be some i've got some hot

01:29:39.960 information just learned about earl gray tea we'll be spilling the tea earl gray hot um in part two

01:29:48.160 of this georgiana like i knew i knew this is going to be a two-part episode like this for sure it's

01:29:53.400 it's not just like how long did she live but it's just like how much happened to her per year she

01:29:58.520 lived several different lifetimes and she didn't have an exceptionally long life we're really just

01:30:03.800 talking about 1770s to 1806 right so yeah but it's like in terms of the eras like she's got

01:30:13.300 yeah i think this is where i thought like we can take a break because she's just been striving

01:30:16.980 ever since she got married to have a son she finally does and that means she can be a mother 1.00

01:30:22.280 which she's always wanted to be um but then also it means she can now potentially take a lover 0.99

01:30:26.380 which we'll talk about next time. 0.99

01:30:28.200 Bess is still just there like, 1.00

01:30:29.540 like everyone else gets to have lovers.

01:30:32.180 It's finally her turn.

01:30:33.700 Oh my gosh.

01:30:34.440 If there's part two,

01:30:35.660 like if you think this is like wild,

01:30:37.480 like wait until part two.

01:30:39.940 But so to wrap up this episode,

01:30:41.740 Amanda, can you tell everybody,

01:30:43.940 remind everybody where they can follow you

01:30:46.180 and find your contact?

01:30:47.200 Oh, of course.

01:30:48.160 Yeah.

01:30:48.480 So I am at Mata of fact.

01:30:50.520 That's M-A-T-T-A underscore of underscore fact

01:30:53.880 on Instagram and TikTok

01:30:55.520 where I do Royal Commentary.

01:30:57.460 I also have a newsletter on Substack

01:31:00.180 that's called The Fascinator

01:31:01.140 for Royal News and Royal Commentary

01:31:03.380 and a twice weekly this year podcast

01:31:06.540 off with their headlines.

01:31:07.840 So that's wherever you get your pods.

01:31:09.480 It's me and Meredith Constant.

01:31:10.780 And we will have a very special guest of our own

01:31:12.660 in a couple of weeks to talk about

01:31:14.240 maybe some other Regency stuff.

01:31:18.040 I'm so psyched to have,

01:31:19.720 I don't know the timing of all this

01:31:20.840 when this episode comes out versus that.

01:31:22.440 But like I had to,

01:31:24.420 I agreed to remove some royal commentary about the current oils from my book, Rebel of the Regency.

01:31:31.260 Sounds outside the scope. 0.98

01:31:32.720 Yeah, but I'm going to reveal in that podcast what shit I was saying.

01:31:37.440 But I also, yeah, so my book, Rebel of the Regency, I wanted to say, unless you have more things, you have your...

01:31:42.820 Nope, that's it.

01:31:44.720 My book, Rebel of the Regency, if you want to read about this era with the minimum amount of Napoleon and the minimum amount of wigs and Tories.

01:31:53.220 I think you've got a copy of the book. Like when you get to this part,

01:31:56.460 I think I actually say in the book, it's just like,

01:31:58.780 I've avoided talking about Napoleon, but now we have to like, 0.96

01:32:02.220 I put it off as much as I could in my book, the wigs and Tories, 0.74

01:32:06.240 same thing. 0.81

01:32:06.800 The world thanks you for it.

01:32:08.720 Well, it's like, if you want to get wigs and Tories talk,

01:32:10.900 read Amanda Foreman's book, the Duchess, or like I did skim those chapters.

01:32:15.480 But, um, my book rebel of the regency,

01:32:17.740 the scandal second of Carolina Brunswick Britain's uncrowned queen is going to

01:32:20.880 be available everywhere february 10th um you can pre-order it in canada the us the uk um and

01:32:27.940 australia go to rebel of the regency.com that's where all the links are to pre-order it and stuff

01:32:32.640 and you know the time time is adding up like i have my pre-order treats so if people share their

01:32:38.000 receipt with me they can get a free year like paid access to my sub stack a free year's paid 0.86

01:32:43.160 access to my patreon and the carolina brunswick paper dolls because she was a fashion girly as 0.99

01:32:48.660 well. And I wanted to celebrate that as best I could. And then also want to let everybody know,

01:32:52.100 um, I'm going to be having a book launch event. So it's where I live in Canada in Saskatoon.

01:32:56.240 And I'm like, I know a lot of people listening are not in Saskatoon, but it's going to be live

01:32:59.960 streamed on YouTube. So Friday the 13th, um, auspicious day, right? The day before Valentine's.

01:33:06.700 So the evening, Friday, February 13th, it'll be streamed on YouTube. And like, there'll be a

01:33:10.880 person there monitoring the chat. So like you can interact with me and stuff. So if you follow the

01:33:14.520 link which i'll put in here and otherwise follow me on social media etc next week come back for me

01:33:21.780 and amanda probably wearing these same outfits to be talking about the second half of this 1.00

01:33:29.500 scandalous story so until next time keep your pants on and your tits out 1.00

01:33:33.600 vulgar history is researched scripted and hosted by ann foster editor is christina lumagi theme 0.99

01:33:42.360 music is by the Severn Duo. Regency era artwork by Karen Moynihan. Social media videos by Magdalena

01:33:48.720 Denson. Transcripts of this podcast are available at vulgarhistory.com by Aveline Malek. You can

01:33:54.420 get early ad-free episodes of Vulgar History by becoming a paid member of our Patreon at

01:33:58.860 patreon.com slash annfosterwriter. Vulgar History merchandise is available at vulgarhistory.com

01:34:04.800 slash store for Americans and at vulgarhistory.redbubble.com for everyone else. Follow

01:34:10.400 us on social media at vulgarhistorypod. Get in touch with me at vulgarhistorypod at gmail.com.

01:34:18.480 Legendary stories, awe-inspiring sound, and endless adventure. Welcome to the realms of

01:34:27.160 peril and glory. Explore the mechanically magical vistas of Vale,

01:34:34.220 The Paranormal Mysteries of Liminal London

01:34:39.300 And the Cyberpunk Chaos of Cyborg

01:34:45.040 Fall in love with our core cast

01:34:50.240 Or be awed by our incredible guests

01:34:53.240 From familiar shows like Oxventure 0.99

01:34:56.100 Three Black Halflings 1.00

01:34:57.760 And No Rolls Barred 1.00

01:34:59.900 Ignite your imagination

01:35:03.080 and discover the Realms of Peril and Glory today.

01:35:06.740 Go to RealmsPod.com or search Realms of Peril and Glory

01:35:11.280 wherever you listen to podcasts.

01:35:17.820 You've watched them from the outside your whole life.

01:35:21.080 On TV, on stage, on the cover.

01:35:23.640 The success that always looks like it happened to someone on a different planet.

01:35:28.060 But what if it didn't?

01:35:29.720 I'm Evelyn and I've spent over 25 years in entertainment.

01:35:33.080 producing for some of the biggest names in Hollywood.

01:35:35.560 And here's what I learned.

01:35:36.900 The distance between you and them,

01:35:38.980 it's a lot shorter than anyone's letting on.

01:35:41.640 On my podcast, Reppin',

01:35:43.040 I sit down with the people you've been watching

01:35:45.300 and I ask them who they actually are.

01:35:48.040 Not the brand, the person.

01:35:50.380 Where they started, what it costs them,

01:35:52.920 what almost broke them.

01:35:54.940 Their grit, their courage, their resilience,

01:35:57.800 and the lessons they've learned,

01:35:59.240 it's all yours for the taking.

01:36:02.180 Reppin, wherever you listen.

01:36:05.460 There are vampires out there.

01:36:07.860 They walk among you, shoulder to shoulder, in the dark.

01:36:10.840 Heading to work, heading home, going to the bar.

01:36:13.380 It's a life just like anyone else's, and I have grown used to it.

01:36:17.620 To the darkness, to the moon, to the taste of blood on my tongue.

01:36:21.380 But vampires are dying out.

01:36:23.780 We are a fading kind, and I am the first one created in so long.

01:36:28.140 And that is a dangerous thing to be.

01:36:30.440 Those who came before me, elders of all stripes, they do not want to see our kind gone,

01:36:35.000 and they will do anything to keep their power.

01:36:37.880 And for myself, and for Grace, who created me, that is a sword that hangs above our heads.

01:36:43.260 And the worst person of all carries our secret, and he will use it however he sees fit.

01:36:49.700 Who do you look to when things are at their darkest?

01:36:52.720 From the creators of Parkdale Haunt comes Woodbine, a podcast about monsters, dreams, and changes.

01:36:58.140 those you want and those you never saw coming.

01:37:01.960 Season 2 arrives September 24th, distributed by Realm.

Vulgar History - January 28, 2026

Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire (part one)

Episode Stats

Transcript