Vulgar History - September 02, 2020


How To Lose A Queen In Nine Days, part one： Mary Tudor, Queen of France

Pandemic Special： Milkmaids, Harem girls, and the History of the Smallpox Vaccine How To Lose A Queen In Nine Days, part 2： Katherine Willoughby, Duchess of Suffolk

Episode Stats


Harmful content

Misogyny

22

sentences flagged

Toxicity

25

sentences flagged

Hate speech

4

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Hello, and welcome to Vulgar History Season 3. My name is Anne Foster, and this is a feminist 0.99
00:00:20.660 women's history comedy podcast. And what that means is that we talk about women from history
00:00:27.100 in a sometimes whimsical way. The title of the show is Vulgar History. So there's going to be
00:00:33.340 some irreverency. There's going to be some swear words. Every time I like go to record an episode,
00:00:40.200 I think to myself, is this, try really hard and try to not have a swear word. So you don't have
00:00:45.040 to choose the explicit rating when you're posting it. But guess what? I always get a little worked
00:00:51.480 up and there's always, there's always a little swearing. So Vulgar History, that's your content
00:00:55.660 warning i guess although i guess chances are you already saw there was an explicit warning on this
00:01:01.120 episode because chances are i'm going to swear at some point so the first season of this podcast
00:01:06.960 the theme was well-behaved women don't make history podcasts and we're looking at some
00:01:11.700 lesser-known women from history mostly from british history i should side note most of what
00:01:17.200 i talk about on this podcast is british history because that is a research interest of mine
00:01:23.960 it's also when you're looking at women's history kind of a place where a lot of research has
00:01:29.820 already been done I'm not able to dive into various you know primary sources and archives
00:01:37.520 and things I'm relying a lot on what books have already been written by other people and where 0.99
00:01:41.840 we're looking at women's history the women who are written about the most tend to be queens
00:01:45.780 and in terms of western history um those queens tend to be british and so that's where
00:01:53.940 where i've wound up doing a lot of my researching and so the first season well they have women
00:02:00.080 domic history podcasts the second season how did i phrase it it was called women leaders and the
00:02:05.960 men who whined about them so there were that was a bit more international in scope but we're just
00:02:10.820 looking at various women who were leaders of various nations and how men got really pissed
00:02:17.180 off about it and then the pandemic happened and I did some pandemic super specials looking at
00:02:23.640 the history of diseases and things and that leads us all to where we are today which is
00:02:28.480 season three and the topic for this season is going to be much more uh specific well not not
00:02:37.100 that the other ones didn't have specific topics it's just this one is going to be geared towards
00:02:42.180 one specific person in a way well you'll see so the theme for this season is how to lose a queen
00:02:49.080 in nine days aka the jane lady jane gray scenario so if you're listening to this i'm guessing you
00:02:57.760 have some sort of interest in history potentially british history and so you may or may not know
00:03:02.740 the lady jane gray is known as the nine days queen she was an english noble woman and sort
00:03:09.820 of the queen of england and ireland asterix from july 10th until july 19th 1553 aka nine days 0.99
00:03:18.080 how she became the queen and why and was she really the queen and what happened after
00:03:24.120 is complex it's a weird story and the fact that she was queen for such a short amount of time
00:03:32.180 means that a lot of the history about how she got there in the first place has been sort of
00:03:38.120 not swept under the rug because like we know about it but just in the sense of people kind
00:03:44.460 of didn't want to dwell on it it was sort of embarrassing so we're going to be looking at
00:03:49.420 the various different women who led to that situation to jane herself and then to what
00:03:57.520 happen afterwards. So we're going to be, there'll be nine episodes this season, unless, you know,
00:04:03.300 I give myself the right to do more or less if I change my mind. So we're going to be looking at
00:04:09.100 the nine women who, her specific ancestors and women who lived at the same time as her or a
00:04:18.020 little bit after to just kind of really get a big picture understanding of what the situation was
00:04:23.120 and how and why she was kind of queen for nine days so how to lose a queen in nine days is the
00:04:30.320 season's theme so a lot of these stories basically all of these stories are going to overlap with
00:04:35.900 each other in some way because we're looking at people who are around when Jane Grey the whole
00:04:41.480 Jane Grey scenario happened people who were there after so it's kind of like the it's kind of like
00:04:48.180 if you've read jasmine guillory's romantic comedy novels which if you haven't i super recommend them
00:04:53.440 especially in these pandemic times they're just like escapist fantasy they're wonderful
00:04:56.800 so it starts with the wedding date and the next one's called the proposal there's five of them
00:05:01.040 right now anyway those books like the first book someone who's not the main character then becomes
00:05:06.780 the main character in the second book and then someone who's a supporting character in the second
00:05:09.940 book becomes the main character in the third book and that sort of thing is kind of what's going to
00:05:14.200 be happening with the season of this podcast where we're going to look at one woman's story
00:05:17.800 and then someone who i mentioned there the next episode we're going to look at her story and a
00:05:22.640 lot of them overlap because these people often lived at the same time as one another and that's
00:05:29.380 what we're doing in this season and i hope that these stories of things that happened centuries
00:05:34.260 ago to a bunch of white ladies in england will help us all get our minds off of the current
00:05:41.180 nightmarish dystopia in which we all live in the year 2020 so oh and then also the way that this
00:05:48.680 podcast works is at the end of each episode i i score the day's heroin on our scandalicious score
00:05:56.360 so there's four categories they are scandaliciousness which is kind of how juicy were
00:06:03.360 any scandals that this person was involved with and then the scheminess which is how much did
00:06:08.700 that person take charge of their own life and actions and did they come up with schemes and
00:06:13.020 were the good schemes then we look at also the significance so what were the long-lasting
00:06:18.200 repercussions of this person's life and decisions and choices sometimes that means like were they
00:06:24.100 the ancestor of someone who later became important or did they influence something that affects us
00:06:31.600 still today that sort of thing and then the final category in the score is the sexism bonus which is
00:06:39.340 sort of an anti-bonus but effectively how much did living under the patriarchy affect their life
00:06:45.980 in in horrible ways and kind of the more it affected them the higher their score is
00:06:50.420 in that and so we have over the course of our last several our last two seasons so we're running this
00:06:58.520 Scandalicious Scale. Let me just consult so I can give you an update for how we're doing.
00:07:05.280 So currently, at the very top of the Scandalicious Scale, from having done two seasons,
00:07:12.740 and this being the third season, so the highest that anyone gets, like the highest total possible
00:07:17.200 score would be a 40. And the highest right now we have is Joanna of Naples with a 33.
00:07:22.620 um Agrippina is behind her with a 31 Empress Matilda and Juana the first of Castile both have
00:07:29.680 30 and then in fifth place is Queen Anne with 29.5 so no one has yet to score a perfect 40
00:07:37.900 I can't even imagine the amazing story that that would be and the way that this scale works too
00:07:43.340 is that someone could be like super scandalous just extraordinarily schemey um have faced all
00:07:50.020 kinds of sexism, but then their significance might be lower. Someone with really high significance
00:07:54.960 maybe wasn't as scandalous. And that's why there's four different elements to it, because
00:07:59.380 we want to judge everybody against the same scale. With all that being said, welcome back
00:08:07.840 to this little podcast. And today we are starting with a woman whose name is Mary Tudor. And
00:08:16.480 i just need to clarify a couple things such as who is she so there's a famous woman who is also
00:08:24.380 a tutor whose name is mary who is england's queen mary the first aka bloody mary that's not who we're
00:08:31.860 talking about today there's also mary queen of scots who lived at the same time that is also
00:08:37.700 not who we're talking about today today we're talking about a woman whose google search results
00:08:43.580 can be very um hard to parse because she her name is mary tudor and there's just other people
00:08:51.680 called mary and mary tudor at the same time but who this person is is the baby sister of king
00:08:57.420 henry the eighth and she is also the grandmother asterix i permit myself the ability to correct
00:09:07.220 myself later i think grandmother yes grandmother of lady jane gray so this is where the whole lady
00:09:15.000 jane gray scenario effectively begins because the whole thing with lady jane gray is that
00:09:21.220 at the time and we're gonna have like a whole lady jane gray episode don't you worry about it
00:09:26.160 there's gonna be nine episodes this season they're all talking about it but in as short as i can
00:09:31.540 explain it there was a period of time in english history where everyone was like who will be the
00:09:37.480 next king and or queen and they started looking henry the eighth's children for various reasons
00:09:44.320 were not possibilities and so they were like well what about the children of henry the eighth's
00:09:49.660 sisters so henry the eighth had an older sister called margaret who is married to the king of
00:09:55.220 scots and then her granddaughter is mary queen of scots and that's where that whole challenge
00:10:01.020 comes from but the thing is that henry the eighth had put in his will that margaret's children could
00:10:06.420 never inherit the throne because things went back and forth between england and scotland and catholics
00:10:11.760 and protestants for a really long time and at the time that henry the eighth made his will
00:10:16.400 margaret's children were both scottish and catholic and henry did not want them to take
00:10:21.560 the throne so in his will he was like hi i know that god chooses the king etc but i'm pretty sure
00:10:26.760 god wouldn't want catholic scottish people on the throne so let's just bypass margaret's children
00:10:30.980 and instead look at the descendants of my little sister mary and that's where jane gray comes into
00:10:37.120 it but again i'm going to clarify that in the whole next nine episodes today we're just looking
00:10:41.940 at who is who is mary tudor aka the other mary and that's who we're looking at today so mary
00:10:52.120 Tudor, today's hero, was born in March 1496. We don't know the specific date because nobody
00:11:00.780 bothered to write it down, which happened a lot in history, even to people like her,
00:11:06.460 who was literally the daughter of the king and queen. Her parents were Henry VII and Elizabeth
00:11:15.560 of York. So her grandmother was Elizabeth Woodville, if you know who that is. Then you do.
00:11:22.120 and you know that she's from a very cool background so she was born in march 1496
00:11:30.040 nobody cared to write down her date personally and i don't know a lot about astrology but what
00:11:35.240 i do know a lot about her is aries because i am an aries and that's the only thing in
00:11:40.360 astrology i ever pay attention to because that's very aries of me to not care about the other
00:11:43.880 signs but i feel like i feel like she's got a strong aries energy so i'm gonna theorize she's
00:11:49.800 was born maybe towards the end of March. That's my headcanon. Anyway, so she has the fourth child
00:11:56.720 born to the king and queen. So in order, the king and queen's children were Arthur,
00:12:02.060 who's the oldest son. And then there was Margaret, who's the oldest daughter.
00:12:07.120 And then there is Henry, who is the second son. And then Mary is a little baby of the family.
00:12:13.400 so when mary was around five years old a spanish princess came to town who was going to marry
00:12:20.980 arthur the oldest brother that spanish princess is catherine of aragon who you might have heard
00:12:26.440 of for various other reasons or maybe you haven't and whatever learn about her here we go so catherine
00:12:32.340 of aragon had grown up with a bunch of sisters of her own she came to town to sort of cement this
00:12:37.160 like spanish english alliance by marrying arthur and so they all got along with each other the four
00:12:44.220 tutor siblings and catherine to sort of hang out together and for a few months in royal court with
00:12:49.880 this sort of youthful energy arthur catherine margaret henry and mary who is the littlest so
00:12:54.960 sort of like a von trapp family scenario is what i picture um then because it's tutor history
00:13:02.960 a series of tragedies would happen because that is just the curse of this family so the first thing
00:13:10.220 that happened is that arthur died so this was pretty shocking to everybody uh catherine had
00:13:16.960 come over from spain to marry him and now he was dead oh they got married then he died uh but
00:13:24.460 still she was a widow and she never got pregnant with him so it's just kind of like what are we
00:13:28.700 going to do with Catherine and that's what the first season of the stars tv show the Spanish
00:13:33.160 princess talks about with some extra gossipy bits if that interests you so this put everything into
00:13:40.800 a sudden crisis it meant that Henry who'd been training to become a priest was suddenly going
00:13:46.880 to have to become the king so they had to change what kind of schooling he was getting and that
00:13:50.940 sort of stuff Catherine was just sort of abandoned Mary at this point was five years old so she's
00:13:55.820 just kind of like her brother just died sad tragic etc um and then shortly after that
00:14:02.920 mary's mother who had been pregnant she died she gave birth and then died and the baby also died
00:14:08.220 that would have been a daughter named catherine so again just putting ourselves in the shoes of
00:14:14.780 mary so her oldest brother died the kingdom is in chaos because he was the next king then her
00:14:20.440 mother dies her father took that really hard um they all took it really hard but her father really
00:14:24.780 did and then just after that her older sister margaret was sent to scotland to marry the king
00:14:30.540 of scots and basically they never saw each other ever again henry um so henry and mary had been
00:14:38.300 pretty close through just five years apart in age and they were kind of like the second
00:14:41.740 the second son and the second daughters they were sort of like the two that people didn't care about
00:14:46.140 as much and so they got to hang out together there was less sort of pressure put on them
00:14:50.360 but then suddenly Henry has to be the king and so he was sent off for king training lessons
00:14:56.040 and Catherine of Aragon was put in sort of a house arrest while everybody figured out what
00:15:01.440 to do with her so it went from having these like months of fun young people hanging out together
00:15:07.560 to Mary being kind of abandoned by literally everybody and she was sent off to live in her
00:15:13.600 own household away from everybody else so that's a lot to happen to someone who is by this point
00:15:21.360 six years old and so perhaps because of the emotional toll of all of the above or maybe
00:15:29.400 just from the general health issues of living in 16th century england mary became ill she was ill
00:15:36.040 a lot as a child um but she did not die she got better and was schooled up in all the skills
00:15:46.820 required of being a princess so she was taught languages music dancing embroidery a pretty
00:15:53.360 decent education frankly um for anyone at this time by the time she was a teenager
00:16:01.860 she was known for being beautiful she's described as being lovely in both personality as well as
00:16:08.760 in looks she was said to be one of the most beautiful princesses in europe at this time 0.99
00:16:13.980 and nobody really knows what she looks like but we do know that from people's descriptions she
00:16:20.160 had dark red hair and a fair complexion and light colored eyes when she was 10 years old
00:16:28.220 she was sort of auditioned to maybe be betrothed to the son of juana the mad of castile who you
00:16:37.840 know if you listen to that podcast about her last season so 10 years old mary was brought out to
00:16:43.000 dance and to play the lute and clavichord for visiting delegation from castile to kind of be
00:16:47.460 like look at what a great wife i'd be i can play clavichord and she did well in the sense of the
00:16:55.020 Betrothal was soon arranged between her and Charles of Castile.
00:16:59.000 But shortly after all of this got sorted, and again, she's 10 years old at this point,
00:17:05.060 Henry VII passed away, her father.
00:17:08.480 And so her brother Henry became King Henry VIII, which at this point, again, I honestly
00:17:17.060 just like Starz TV show, The Spanish Princesses.
00:17:21.860 I enjoy it.
00:17:22.980 I enjoy the show and I recommend it just because so much of the Henry VIII lore is about him being
00:17:29.520 old and like having all the wives and all that stuff but when it started out like if you're just
00:17:34.300 like in the present moment of him becoming king he was this young what like 15 year old-ish and
00:17:41.180 he was tall and handsome and everybody was just like oh man look at this new tall handsome king
00:17:44.960 we get this is great he married Catherine of Aragon who had been living in limbo ever since
00:17:51.340 Arthur died and so that was great and everybody loved Catherine it was this really exciting new
00:17:57.140 energy everyone was really excited about it so Henry VIII like to me and I'm assuming to you but
00:18:02.840 maybe it's just me I just think like oh gross my arch nemesis the worst but at this point he was
00:18:08.140 just like this king everyone was kind of excited about this fresh new energy um for Mary this was
00:18:14.780 probably again sad because her father had just died but also like her beloved brother was the
00:18:19.380 king um catherine was back in her life she got to hang out with catherine again things were good
00:18:25.840 um but then henry decided so this castilian marriage arrangement had been made but henry
00:18:34.560 decided you know what i don't i think we could do better i don't think we need to uh
00:18:40.000 mayor her off to the son of of one of the juana la loca of castile what we're going to do is we're
00:18:47.860 going to marry, marry to the King of France. So the thing about this is that the King of France
00:18:54.840 was 53 years old. Um, and Mary was, you would assume based on how much stuff had happened to
00:19:02.280 her, she was 35 at this point, but in fact she was 17. So Henry decided what he was going to do
00:19:09.300 is marry his 17 year old sister to the 53 year old French King, Louis XII, who is also very
00:19:17.520 ill so like nothing the matter with being a 53 year old king but if you're like 17 and you're
00:19:25.240 told and she would have been raised knowing like her the whole point of her life was to
00:19:29.280 marry whoever her family decided to marry her off to for like national alliance reasons but
00:19:36.280 one can imagine she would be a little disappointed to learn that she's going to marry
00:19:40.440 a 53 year old french man who had gout um but she was also extra disappointed because she was already
00:19:48.140 in love with somebody else and that was charles brandon so if you watch the tutors tv show
00:19:56.520 which whatever channel that was on it's streaming somewhere um charles brandon is played in that tv
00:20:05.020 show by Henry Cavill pre-Superman so just like young Henry Cavill before he got super bulky so
00:20:12.300 just like peak Henry Cavill so and Charles Brandon Henry VIII's best friend slash super handsome and
00:20:21.020 let me just see he was not that much older than her um wait he was born in 1484 she was born in
00:20:35.020 yeah so he's just like 10 years older than her so i mean still older like she's 27 he's
00:20:41.340 or she's 17 he's like 27 that's like in these days but in those days if your options are
00:20:48.540 53 or 27 like i'd go with henry cavill personally so and the thing is they were in love with each
00:20:56.180 other but secretly so she had always been close with her brother henry and so she explained to
00:21:01.860 him like guess what i don't want to marry the 53 year old french king i'd rather marry your best
00:21:07.160 friend charles brandon um because i love him and the thing is at this point love marriage was like
00:21:14.960 not a thing royalty did in general so henry was like um no like i think we both know this you
00:21:24.020 both raised like the whole point of your life is to marry somebody to make an alliance and then
00:21:29.080 have children and then like help our dynasty continue forever etc um and so he said no he
00:21:35.820 came right charles brandon she's like sorry i choose charles brandon and then they had this
00:21:41.220 big fight so henry refused to back down may refuse to back down but the thing is they both really
00:21:47.980 loved and cared for each other in a sibling way and henry really had a soft spot for her so
00:21:53.320 eventually she's able to sort of negotiate this sort of prenuptial agreement that said like okay
00:21:58.480 if mary married the 53 year old french king when he died mary will get to choose her own
00:22:05.520 next husband henry wouldn't get to choose that and henry was like fine i i agree to that and
00:22:12.220 the thing is that the french king was sick so mary was probably thinking like okay i might be married
00:22:17.380 to him for like a year five years whatever and when i'm done i can marry charles brandon so she
00:22:25.360 agreed and that negotiation had gone on for so long by now she's 18 and she was put on a boat
00:22:33.440 to sail across the English Channel to marry the French king and one of the she was sent along
00:22:41.580 with ladies-in-waiting because she was a princess and that is how princesses traveled one of her
00:22:46.680 ladies-in-waiting was Anne Boleyn who was probably sent along because Anne Boleyn had spent time in 0.98
00:22:52.260 france and so she it's like we're going to france like this makes sense let's send her to france
00:22:56.040 this is way before henry and anne were romantically involved at this point anne
00:23:02.120 boleyn was just like a gorgeous lady-in-waiting with maybe a french accent um the two of them did
00:23:09.700 not get along i'm not sure if something happened specifically on this journey or if mary just like
00:23:14.060 didn't like anne boleyn for various reasons but the two of them did not get along and this is
00:23:19.340 just like a fun little foreshadowing moment this is the sort of thing we're going to get a lot in
00:23:24.240 the season where it is people who become important later sort of like come into someone's life in
00:23:29.600 this low-key way and then they become important later on so just sort of the way Mary did not
00:23:35.660 like Anne Boleyn um so she arrived in France and this is where we get most of the people's
00:23:41.900 written descriptions of what she looks like and no one in France was going to be like and then
00:23:45.480 the princess arrived and she was gross and everyone thought she was gross but the way that
00:23:50.340 they wrote like so effusively about the effect she had on people kind of speaks to to what she 1.00
00:23:56.520 was like in terms of charisma and appearance um she was described as being gorgeous um she was
00:24:03.140 seen as graceful she was well-mannered she took your breath away one chronicler wrote quote she
00:24:09.580 is paradise um her 53 year old fiance louis the 12th described her as a nymph from heaven
00:24:17.060 she was apparently fun loving um cheery a whole lot of fun um back when she was in england she
00:24:25.700 had enthusiastically taken part in dances and performances with henry the eighth and everybody
00:24:30.540 else so she was just like a good time she was the whole package she was smart she was talented she
00:24:37.200 was lovely she was beautiful um when she first met lou the 12th apparently she blew him a kiss
00:24:42.420 which everybody was like oh mon dieu so even though she didn't want to be there marrying
00:24:48.080 this much older person she like sold it she was like she was there she showed up she did 0.99
00:24:53.900 her job as a tutor princess to do this marriage alliance and then less than three months later
00:25:01.260 the french king was dead so now probably he had lots of health problems including gout and he
00:25:10.780 probably died of health problems related reasons but isn't it interesting to think that maybe she
00:25:18.300 killed him um some people thought that then that's not just me trying to look for drama where there
00:25:24.340 is none um there were rumors that she was so young and gorgeous um and the king was so much older
00:25:30.460 that maybe when they consummated the marriage like her sexual appetite was so voracious that 0.75
00:25:34.680 she had like fucked him to death um i mean such was her effect on people that they thought she 0.96
00:25:40.460 was capable of that which is like i've saw that plot line on i want to say 0.99
00:25:46.560 murder she wrote where there's a thing where it seemed like they got married and then he died and
00:25:53.780 it was a heart no it was like csi or something anyway so this is the thought that a a woman 0.99
00:26:00.880 could fuck a man to death especially if he's old maybe as a heart condition is possible um 1.00
00:26:06.480 again on the tutors i'm pretty sure i haven't watched in a while but i think they show her 1.00
00:26:12.140 actively murdering him by like smothering him with a pillow and those are rumors too and did
00:26:17.740 she kill him i mean officially no but also if she did she would have been so good about it we would
00:26:23.440 never know it was her so rumors spread just because people back then were gossipy and lived 1.00
00:26:28.100 for drama and whatever the reason she had been queen of france for less than three months she
00:26:35.440 did not get pregnant which meant she had no ties to that country if she was pregnant with you know 0.99
00:26:41.940 the new heir to the throne then she probably would have stayed there and been like dowager queen etc 0.97
00:26:45.000 but she wasn't pregnant uh the king was dead and she was able to go back to england or so she
00:26:51.020 thought um the thing is that the french custom at the time was the royal widows had to stay
00:26:57.340 indoors for a month following the death of their husbands and like not talk to many people and just
00:27:02.020 kind of that's how mourning worked so she wanted to just like if she could fly back to england
00:27:09.520 i mean like she couldn't have flown obviously but i'm sure she just wished she could and mary
00:27:16.900 charles brandon slash henry cavill but she had to stay indoors for months so she was just kind
00:27:21.940 of going bananas while a whole bunch of people try to figure out what to do with her so nobody
00:27:27.880 obviously expected she'd be widowed so quickly uh the french royals wanted to find her a new 0.97
00:27:33.500 french royal husband to keep up this english-french alliance that was the whole reason why she was 0.83
00:27:38.540 married to them in the first place um henry as well wanted to find her new french husband for 0.99
00:27:45.080 this alliance reason but people in england also knew that she was in love with charles brandon 0.97
00:27:49.800 and they knew that she had this special deal where she could marry whoever she wanted and
00:27:53.400 charles brandon already had a lot of power in england because he was king him of the eights
00:27:58.000 his best friend his enemies didn't want him to marry mary because they thought well that would
00:28:03.240 give him even more power and influence and we don't want him to have power and influence so
00:28:06.620 everybody was just like debating what are we gonna do with her and eventually henry sent
00:28:12.960 for her to be like after the month was over her just like staying inside going insane
00:28:18.920 um henry said it's time to send her back to england and we can like figure what to do with
00:28:23.720 her once she's back and he looked around he's like but who can i trust to send to france to
00:28:28.480 bring her back and well i feel like shouldn't he be able to trust anybody he's the king but no
00:28:33.320 because everybody was scheming constantly and the person he picked was charles brandon this is an
00:28:39.760 interesting choice and you might think did he do that knowing that the two of them would spoiler
00:28:45.480 secretly get married I think he chose Charles because um it was his best friend and he's like
00:28:53.400 if I can trust anyone to like bring her back and no funny business it's Charles so or was he setting
00:29:00.620 up Charles to see what he would do I don't know fatefully he chose Charles to go over and pick
00:29:06.900 up mary he made charles promise don't do anything silly like marry my sister and charles is like of
00:29:12.540 course i won't marry your sister lol um but all of charles's and even if he went over there
00:29:18.940 intending that like his promises meant nothing because mary had been indoors for 30 days
00:29:23.560 after having been married to this man for three months and so she burst out of the room looking
00:29:29.880 amazing with all her charisma and was like guess what we're getting married right now let's elope
00:29:35.200 it's happening and Charles is like okay so they got married on March the 3rd 1515
00:29:42.060 in sort of a secret wedding and yet there were 10 guests there including the new French king so like
00:29:48.920 not that secret and the thing so even though Mary had this agreement from Henry that she could
00:29:55.480 choose her next husband the agreement wasn't like she could just randomly choose him and get married
00:30:00.440 without telling the king or getting the king's permission it was basically treason to get married
00:30:04.260 without telling the king about it especially if you're related to the king like you're his sister
00:30:09.720 but they both kind of felt like well if we get married it's the sort of like beg forgiveness
00:30:15.600 instead of ask permission type scenario she just thought like we need to get married now
00:30:20.080 or else henry's gonna marry make me marry somebody else so let's just do this right now
00:30:23.280 so she was a strong-willed person clearly and they're both hoping like okay henry loves mary
00:30:28.920 so much as his like beloved baby sister and he loves charles brandon so much as his beloved best
00:30:33.100 friend so let's just like get married um hopefully get pregnant as soon as possible so he can't do
00:30:40.440 something awful like annul this marriage so they just like sailed back to England as husband and
00:30:46.360 wife um consummating their marriage presumably on that boat or whatever so they came back and
00:30:54.060 to the surprise of nobody Henry was really mad about this um secret marriage despite the fact
00:31:00.120 that he had agreed that she could choose her second husband and also he had he was the one
00:31:04.300 who sent Charles there like what did he think would happen um and so all of Charles Brandon's
00:31:09.580 enemies were like this is awful like you should arrest Charles you should kill Charles but Henry's
00:31:13.360 like he's my best friend and Mary's my baby sister and I love them both and so finally he was like
00:31:19.460 okay and he decided to just punish them by giving them a fine but it was like a pretty small fine
00:31:26.120 and they could pay it in small annual installments so not very inconvenient um he also said that
00:31:31.780 mary had to repay her dowry back to him from her short-lived marriage to the french king and she
00:31:37.320 was like deal and deal and then they're all best friends again so then mary and charles had a
00:31:44.380 second wedding in england this time with henry the eighth among the guests everybody was happy
00:31:49.480 about it one year later Catherine of Aragon had a daughter which is Henry's daughter um and they
00:31:55.900 named the new daughter Mary probably in honor of Mary Tudor his beloved sister slash Catherine's
00:32:02.960 friend so again it's like now it's like the adult version of when they were kids and everything was
00:32:07.280 great everything was great um and again you think like by now is Mary like 27 like a lot has happened
00:32:15.000 to her but no she is 19 at this point so by marriage her new title was the Duchess of Suffolk
00:32:22.880 which is Charles Brandon's title so she's sort of like dowager queen of France but effectively the
00:32:30.480 Duchess of Suffolk is her main thing so she lived 19 years of life as chaos tragedy just like
00:32:37.900 one thing after another happening around her and her not having much say in what happened to her
00:32:42.580 own life so she chose her husband married him and now she just wanted to chill out in the country
00:32:47.920 with her new family for the rest of her life um charles came with a built-in step family for her
00:32:53.400 um he was raising two daughters from his first marriage whose names were mary and ann because
00:32:59.840 that's the only names that existed for girls back then um mary being even though she was 19 was like
00:33:05.620 okay I'll be your stepmother whatever that's not weird and she had some children as well
00:33:12.220 she had two sons and two daughters and we'll talk about them in a little bit because remember
00:33:20.440 we're talking about her because she is the grandmother of Lady Jane Grey so this is where
00:33:25.040 that all starts anyway as philippa gregory has shown us in her extremely um
00:33:35.780 plot twist filled dramatic fiction books um tudor lives never end happily there's always
00:33:44.400 tragedy upon tragedy in these lives um like you knew that one was coming here like of course it's
00:33:52.460 a Tudor story so in 1528 Mary Tudor was she fell down with a sweating sickness which I talked about
00:34:00.800 on one of my pandemic special podcasts you can listen to a while ago but it was this horrible
00:34:05.780 disease that no one quite knows what it was where you just like sweat and then oh I'm trying to
00:34:10.580 remember it's like and then you suddenly feel like this horrible sense of dread and then you die
00:34:15.600 it's gruesome and you die in like 24 hours or something again listen to my podcast about that
00:34:20.660 where i have more scientific information anyway she fell sick remember she was sick a lot as a
00:34:26.100 child she's just like a person who fell sick a lot i guess um so she's one of the people who
00:34:30.840 came down with that which was horrible horrible for her um she did get better but um this sort
00:34:41.260 of weakened her immune system so she just became more sickly after that and at around this same
00:34:46.720 time um Henry was busy trying to get his marriage to Catherine of Aragon annulled um his if you know 0.77
00:34:55.400 the whole Henry VIII thing then you know this bullshit part where he was just like well basically
00:35:00.280 because Catherine of Aragon had had their daughter Mary but then she had so many children who died in 0.91
00:35:06.040 infancy slash stillbirths miscarriages it was just like oh this poor woman Catherine of Aragon
00:35:10.840 and eventually Henry was like oh my god she's so gross and old she's like 38 years old that was
00:35:16.260 her age that's you know and all the things about Catherine of Aragon where it's she's this like
00:35:22.980 menopausal old woman and it's like well of course Henry wanted Anne Boleyn she was like 38
00:35:28.080 Henry VIII the worst um anyway so Henry VIII wanted to annul his marriage to Catherine of
00:35:36.260 Aragon and his reasoning for that was because Catherine had been married to his brother Arthur
00:35:40.500 before and in the bible it says like a woman can't marry two brothers or something and
00:35:46.240 Catherine was like but I never had sex with him and Henry's like but did you and then it was all 0.98
00:35:50.540 bullshit whatever he just wanted to marry Anne Boleyn because she was hot and he loved her 0.92
00:35:54.280 um now remember Mary had never liked Anne Boleyn for mysterious reasons and Mary was also a big 0.99
00:36:01.560 had always been a friend of Catherine Aragon and so she supported Catherine so this really got
00:36:06.700 between the brother and sister at this point there's also the whole thing where Henry was
00:36:11.460 gonna have to like when the Pope wouldn't let him annul his marriage to Anne Boleyn then he
00:36:16.400 separated England from Catholic religion slash the Pope and started a new religion like Mary was just
00:36:24.000 not into any of this she was like remember when you were like Mary you can't get married for love
00:36:27.840 you're a royal and now Henry was like doing all the stuff to Mary Anne Boleyn who Mary already
00:36:32.000 hated so anyway um they had a big fight Mary made no secret of the fact that she hated Anne Boleyn
00:36:38.760 thought she sucked to the point that it became kind of an issue um and then some boleyn relatives
00:36:44.780 were like well we need to teach her a lesson to not badmouth and boleyn and so what they did the 0.98
00:36:50.340 boleyn relatives allegedly um is that they murdered one of their household staff members
00:36:56.800 um as sort of like a look what we if you don't stop badmouthing and boleyn 1.00
00:37:01.740 we'll kill more people or something um mary was like well fuck you and she she kept badmouthing 0.99
00:37:10.020 anne boleyn and as much as i like anne boleyn i also like mary tudor and i like that she never 1.00
00:37:13.900 backed down from this um she was like the only person who could stand up to henry the eighth
00:37:17.760 really the only woman certainly because it was his baby sister and he couldn't have her arrested
00:37:25.960 etc and he just had this really soft spot for her but the anne boleyn of it all came between them
00:37:31.320 they never had a chance to make up with each other because she was still kind of sick from
00:37:36.260 remaining issues from the sweating sickness and then mary tudor died aged 37 0.93
00:37:42.080 because she had been the dowager she'd been the queen of france for like almost three months
00:37:48.740 but also she was the king's sister and the daughter of the previous english king and a princess
00:37:53.620 so she had this massive state funeral funeral lasted for two days it included a funeral
00:37:59.500 procession where a hearse was pulled by six horses um there was a hundred torch bearers
00:38:04.800 so her older daughter mary had two daughters francis and eleanor and her older daughter
00:38:10.840 francis was the chief mourner her stepdaughters ann and mary also came apparently they pushed
00:38:18.160 their way to the front of the procession to try and make themselves look more important
00:38:20.800 just as the coffin is being lowered into its crypt which is just like
00:38:24.220 the perfect little messy detail for the funeral of this woman whose life is so dramatic
00:38:30.040 and that was her death so her legacy so she has these two daughters francis and eleanor brandon
00:38:40.580 francis brandon grew up and married a man named henry gray and had three daughters lady jane
00:38:47.460 gray lady katherine gray and lady mary gray that's where that part of the lady jane gray
00:38:53.640 story comes into play so people were just like who will be the next king and or queen for various
00:38:58.440 reasons we don't want mary we don't want elizabeth henry himself removed his sister margaret's
00:39:04.440 children from the whole line of succession so then they looked at well who were mary tudor's
00:39:08.960 descendants both of her sons had died um in infancy or early childhood so she just had
00:39:14.820 her and charles brennan only two children left so francis and eleanor so mary tudor was the
00:39:21.320 sister of henry the eighth her daughter was francis brandon who became francis gray and that's the
00:39:26.540 mother of lady jane gray and that's kind of where this all comes from for interest's sake her second
00:39:32.960 daughter eleanor brandon married a man named henry clifford they had a daughter named margaret
00:39:39.560 clifford margaret clifford married a man named henry stanley and then they had a son named
00:39:43.900 ferdinando stanley and that's a whole other claim that we'll talk about in a different episode of
00:39:49.380 this podcast so you've got mary tudor francis brandon like her daughter francis that becomes
00:39:55.820 a whole gray family scenario her daughter eleanor becomes a whole clifford family scenario
00:40:00.360 and what i find interesting well i find this all interesting but what i find sort of
00:40:06.660 resonant is that through so mary tudor's daughter francis had three daughters one of them was lady
00:40:13.860 katherine gray who had some children and if you keep following that lineage all the way down from
00:40:19.280 Catherine Gray's children you wind up on Elizabeth Bowes Lion aka Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mum
00:40:25.060 so the mother of Queen Elizabeth the first so through so in that way Mary Tudor is an ancestor
00:40:34.980 of today's current British family and honestly I mean there's so much mess and drama in like every
00:40:41.220 generation of every royal family I just know a lot about the British one particularly because of my
00:40:46.280 research interest but i feel like you can see a bit of the the spirit of mary tudor in for instance
00:40:52.560 prince harry these days anyway um there's a couple books about that involve mary tudor
00:40:59.800 the ones that i used for research for this were the sisters of henry the eighth the tumultuous
00:41:05.820 lives of margaret of scotland and mary of france by maria perry and there's also quite a bit about
00:41:10.880 mary tudor in the book henry the eighth king and court by allison weir and there's a couple of
00:41:20.540 novels if you want to read even more about her so there's a philippa gregory there's always a
00:41:25.320 philippa gregory book three sisters three queens talks about the three i think the three queens in
00:41:30.700 that are mary tudor catherine of aragon and i forget who the third one is anyway but mary
00:41:36.140 tudor is in that book and then there's also tony richess is another author who writes a lot of
00:41:40.160 Tudor era history, historical fiction. He has a book called Mary Tudor Princess. And so now it's
00:41:46.260 exciting time to get into the Scandalicious Scale for Mary Tudor. So the first category
00:41:57.100 is Scandaliciousness. So this is just like how juicy are any of the scandals that she was
00:42:03.080 involved with? Like I give high marks if someone is involved with, for instance, murder or
00:42:08.780 um jewel theft or or just things that are just like oh my god like really gossipy
00:42:14.820 so frankly mary tudor like what we know of the scandals that she was involved with like the main
00:42:21.560 one would be um marrying charles brandon kind of in secret without permission and then coming back
00:42:27.900 to england being like surprise we're married it's all consummated um the end you can't do anything 0.98
00:42:31.860 about it and then also the whole rumor that did she fuck her husband to death so it's not a lot 0.84
00:42:39.060 of scandals but the ones that are there are quite strong so for that i shall give her 7.5 out of 10 0.86
00:42:44.680 um the next category is scheminess which is not just like 0.56
00:42:51.460 anything that where she just takes control of what's going on and comes up with plans whether
00:42:58.240 they work or not i would consider scheminess so i think the fact that she's able to convince henry
00:43:03.220 to give her this prenuptial agreement where she can choose her second husband is a great scheme
00:43:07.860 um the fact that she convinced charles bannon to marry her without permission a great scheme um
00:43:13.300 so again not a lot of schemes but the ones that she was involved with were
00:43:17.020 impressive so i'm going to give her a 7.5 for that as well the next category is
00:43:24.940 significance and this is tricky with her because to me she's very significant what a cool story
00:43:31.180 but um the fact that she's the through her the whole jane gray scenario happened and jane gray
00:43:37.800 i feel like is even though she's only queen for nine days was like a significant event so the
00:43:41.980 fact that she's the ancestor of her she's the reason why jane gray got a claim to the throne
00:43:47.440 is significant also who knows like the significance of just the fact that she married the french king
00:43:53.520 and then didn't marry someone else french would have significance for english and french you know
00:43:59.220 alliances and policies for ages because england and france were always at war i'm just gonna give
00:44:04.980 her 7.5 there as well i think 7.5 for significance and the final part is a sexism bonus anti-bonus 0.93
00:44:16.480 so like how much bullshit from the patriarchy did she have to put up with 1.00
00:44:19.520 the fact that henry made her marry the king of france was some bullshit but then she fought 1.00
00:44:26.500 back made her own marriage i don't know i feel like the sexism is like it sucks like no one's 0.98
00:44:32.620 ever gonna get less than five but i'm just gonna give her five because that's kind of standard 0.90
00:44:36.160 issue bullshit so what does this come to 26 27 27.5 for mary tudor so that is that puts her where
00:44:49.440 i'm just looking at the list here i mean it's good it's a high score she's there up in the top
00:44:56.220 ish and i think this is a fair spot for her like she had some schemes but not a lot the people who
00:45:02.400 are above her people like cleopatra who had a lot of schemes agrippina lots of schemes so i think i
00:45:10.520 think it's a fair score so 27.5 is where we're starting off for our season three episode one
00:45:17.620 mary tudor a cool person i enjoyed learning about her and i hope you enjoyed listening to this so
00:45:24.060 you can learn about her too i wanted to mention so the the theme for this season is jane gray
00:45:30.760 like the jane gray thing but of course the actual name of the season is how to lose a queen in nine
00:45:36.260 days and i have to credit my friend allison epstein queen of puns for helping me come up
00:45:41.820 with that amazing name and i would just like to shout out that she is also an author allison
00:45:46.660 Epstein has her debut novel is coming out in January 2021. It's called A Tip for the Hangman
00:45:53.740 and it is a historical fiction novel about Christopher Marlowe who was a playwright
00:45:58.840 in the Tudor era. He was Shakespeare's sort of rival. More importantly to people who are listening
00:46:05.140 to this, this novel is Christopher Marlowe becomes a spy and then he has to like spy and marry Queen
00:46:10.840 of Scots for Queen Elizabeth. All of our ladies are in this and the book sounds amazing and it
00:46:14.740 comes out in january and i'll put information about it in the show notes so thank you allison
00:46:19.320 for the suggesting the excellent name for the season of this podcast and i'll just remind you
00:46:24.500 about all the things because we haven't we haven't a chance to talk like this in a long time
00:46:28.660 so in the show notes you'll find information with all these links as well but just so you know if
00:46:35.300 you would like to support this little podcast slash me on patreon it's at patreon.com slash
00:46:40.540 and foster writer and that's where you can find some if you set up for the patreon there's some
00:46:46.320 behind the scenes information you get you get early access to some content and also i have
00:46:51.360 many episodes there called so this asshole where i talk about men who bother me from history and i
00:46:59.100 put those there because otherwise i would get much too into it here on this podcast and we can talk 0.89
00:47:04.340 about the women because i'd be too busy screaming about how much i hate these men so you can get
00:47:08.700 the mini episodes there on my patreon this little podcast we're on instagram at vulgar history pod
00:47:14.440 on twitter at vulgar history um we have merch which is at teespring so if you go to teespring.com
00:47:21.740 slash stores slash vulgar history you can find our merch i'm going to be putting up some stuff
00:47:26.520 for this season it will be hilarious and amazing and also there's some non-medical face masks there 0.89
00:47:32.360 if you want a face mask with francis howard on it saying masks on tits out that's where you go
00:47:38.420 to buy that sort of thing and then also i like to mention bookshop.org which is a website that
00:47:45.280 where you can get books that also through them they support independent bookstores i have a list
00:47:50.820 there of all the books that i have mentioned on this podcast and the ones that i use for research
00:47:54.780 purposes so if anyway that's in the show notes um bookshop.org and that's it for this episode
00:48:01.220 i'm really excited to be back doing this podcast these nine episodes are going to be really
00:48:07.300 interesting there's a lot of there's some bullshit coming up there's some stuff i'm really mad about
00:48:13.300 that happened to some of these women um and i'm glad to get to yell about it with you and we can
00:48:19.100 all talk about it after because half the reason i do this podcast is because these are stories i
00:48:23.940 just want to tell people who are interested in them and you're listening to it and that means
00:48:27.540 you're someone who's interested so i would love to continue the conversation on twitter on instagram
00:48:32.760 or whatever. So I will talk to you all next time. Tits out, masks on. See you next time.
00:48:54.680 The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered
00:49:02.520 like bones in the dust.
00:49:04.540 Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world,
00:49:08.740 praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight.
00:49:12.000 But in the shadow dark, the darkness always wins.
00:49:16.280 This is old school adventuring at its most cruel.
00:49:19.780 Your torch ticks down in real time.
00:49:22.100 And when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job.
00:49:25.580 This is a brutal rules light nightmare
00:49:27.900 with a story that emerges organically
00:49:30.580 based on the decisions that the characters make.
00:49:33.260 This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s,
00:49:35.700 and man, it is so good to be back.
00:49:37.900 Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark
00:49:40.980 every Thursday night at 8 p.m. Eastern
00:49:43.020 on youtube.com slash the glass cannon
00:49:45.320 with the podcast version dropping the next day.
00:49:48.700 See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark.
00:49:55.380 Do you ever watch a TV show set in a historical time period
00:49:58.920 and think, how accurate is this really?
00:50:01.680 But also, does it matter if it's accurate or not?
00:50:04.940 NeferTV is a new podcast about shows set in ancient times.
00:50:11.080 This season, we're recapping every episode of the show Spartacus, Blood and Sand.
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00:50:39.860 Do you love Disney? Do you love Top Ten lists?
00:50:42.860 Then you're going to love our podcast, Disney Countdown.
00:50:45.540 Hi, I'm Megan the Magical Millennial.
00:50:47.520 And Biscuits, I'm Jeremy, a.k.a. Jarendell,
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00:50:53.540 On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show,
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