Vulgar History - International, part 11： Catalina de Erauso Meets the Pope (pt 3⧸3)

00:00:00.120 Hi, Tits Out Brigade. It's Al.

00:00:02.520 And it's Nathan.

00:00:03.420 From the Fatal Fortunes podcast.

00:00:05.060 We're big fans of Anne, and we just wanted to come on here to introduce this next episode of the podcast.

00:00:12.440 I know that vulgar history has gotten me through many a long drive in the rural New England nights 1.00

00:00:16.960 with her spooky tales of bad bitches gone by. 1.00

00:00:21.420 If you like vulgar history, make sure to check out Fatal Fortunes, 0.98

00:00:24.900 where we discuss dangerously beautiful lives whose legacies haunt us today.

00:00:29.460 And now, your host, Anne Foster. 1.00

00:00:48.600 Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast.

00:00:52.760 My name is Anne Foster, and this is part three of Catalina de Arauzo.

00:00:58.120 so if you've listened to parts one and two welcome back if you haven't listened to them

00:01:02.740 I mean welcome also this is going to be sort of a chaotic and perhaps confusing experience for you

00:01:07.620 but I would never suggest that you not just go ahead and listen to this and I would suspect

00:01:13.640 after hearing it you probably would want to go back and listen to parts one and two for the full

00:01:17.160 context anyway this is where it all wraps up her story as you know from parts one and two does not

00:01:24.820 slow down ever uh this is the part where as we've been mentioning in parts one and two she's going

00:01:31.220 to meet literally the pope it's pretty exciting um yeah so the thrilling conclusion and also

00:01:38.860 where did she score the scandalous scale all of that coming up here on vulgar history

00:01:43.280 so on to kuzco a city just as grand as lima in both riches and people she'd only been there a

00:01:50.680 few days when she got herself into another serious mess quote undeserved to tell the truth because

00:01:55.380 this time around i was entirely blameless whatever you may have hurt solid so one day the sheriff

00:02:02.480 was murdered and for no reason at all everyone thought catalina was the killer

00:02:06.300 can't imagine is this like the little boy who cried wolf but murder where it's like

00:02:12.760 yes i did all those other murders but not this one this one

00:02:16.620 so she was arrested kept for five months at which quote almighty god saw to it that the

00:02:24.240 truth came out and along with it my total innocence in the matter so the real killer

00:02:29.740 was found or whatever so then she went to lima so at this time the dutch were laying siege to

00:02:36.020 lima with warships so it was like a ship-based battle dutch ships versus spanish ships um lima

00:02:43.640 was a spanish city so i think also the city was lots of people defending it catalina obviously

00:02:49.260 joined the spanish forces against the dutch but the warship she was on heaved over and only three

00:02:54.240 people managed to escape a barefoot franciscan friar a soldier and catalina and they just were

00:03:00.280 sort of like paddling around until a dutch ship picked them up as prisoners so she's a prisoner

00:03:05.040 for 26 days assuming she'd be hauled off to holland which would have been another great story

00:03:10.320 but no in the end quote they flung me and my two companions out on the coast a good hundred miles

00:03:15.060 from lima but whatever they like walked to lima and she stayed there um this is a great story

00:03:21.820 this is like an aesop's fable level story so she bought a cheap horse and just kind of hung out

00:03:27.720 doing whatever until one day a constable approached her and was like hey did you steal this horse and

00:03:33.560 two men were there like yes that's totally the guy who like stole our horse that's our horse 0.78

00:03:37.040 so then she whipped oh i know you like a cloak moment she whipped off her cloak 1.00

00:03:41.240 and covered the horse's head with it and was like okay which of the horse's eyes is blind 1.00

00:03:46.800 and one man said left and the other one said right and catalina whipped off the cloak like

00:03:51.180 neither and the constable was like well these guys are lying it's clearly not their horse

00:03:58.720 well done that's such a dirtbag king solomon moment i love it for her yeah i love it yeah

00:04:04.900 so kailina saddled up and left at that point and i never learned how it ended because i was already 0.92

00:04:10.520 on my way to kuzco she was minding her own business gambling with cards at her friend's

00:04:16.520 house when a dark hairy giant of a man sat down next to me a menacing fellow everyone called

00:04:22.420 el sid i went on with my game and won the hand i was playing but then el sid stuck his paw in

00:04:31.100 my winnings, her words, not mine, palmed some of my gold and walked out. Catalina slipped out her

00:04:36.560 dagger. So I will say that there's basically one, one of the movies about this story starts with

00:04:42.460 this. Starts with the story of El Cid. Yes. So Catalina slipped out her dagger, went on with

00:04:49.220 the game. And the next time El Cid stuck his hand out, she saw it coming and skewered his hand to

00:04:54.700 the table with the dagger yes so then so then everyone got up and pulled out their swords

00:05:01.040 yes and catalina slipped out into the street which was a piece of luck seeing as how they 0.52

00:05:05.860 were about to chop me into pieces el cid came after her as did the others um but just at that 0.82

00:05:11.580 moment two basqueueros were walking by and they were like you're from the basque country so are we

00:05:16.040 so they're fighting fighting um catalina fell to the ground in a sea of her own blood

00:05:23.220 and then everyone took off quote I pulled myself to my feet the taste of death in my mouth she got 0.91

00:05:29.240 up and she saw El Cid was still there and he was like you still alive and she stabbed him with like

00:05:34.960 the last bit of energy she had they both collapsed to the ground and one onlooker said all that

00:05:39.280 remains to be done is their last confession because they both seemingly were about to die

00:05:43.200 El Cid died right there but some good-hearted people took Catalina to the house where she'd

00:05:48.580 been staying and put her to bed but they wouldn't let the surgeon come help her until after she'd

00:05:52.300 done her confession because they were like you're clearly gonna die so it's like we can either do

00:05:57.660 your last confession or we can give you surgery but like we really need to do the last confession 0.79

00:06:02.640 first because you're probably you're gonna die either now or in surgery um a friar arrived to

00:06:08.260 take her confession and for the first time allison catalina told all including her gender 0.56

00:06:14.400 that poor friar must have been like i was just trying to have a nice thursday night and suddenly

00:06:21.600 we're talking for two hours in this woman's confession and I didn't budget time for this.

00:06:27.640 So they brought her a final communion wafer. She's like, guess what I'll do with this thing.

00:06:34.760 So she took it and then she started to get better. I put in brackets, God, question mark.

00:06:40.060 Perhaps. She was unconscious for 14 hours from the surgery and the pain, etc. Eventually she

00:06:45.340 came to and she's moved to a Franciscan monastery to avoid her being arrested while still

00:06:48.900 convalescing the friars have just got her back the church is like we are here for you um knowing

00:06:56.100 that she would probably be arrested and or the sid's friends wanted to kill her catalina was like

00:07:01.320 i decided on a change of scene that that was her words that's one way of putting it

00:07:07.900 i decided to move away from all these people who wanted to arrest and kill me

00:07:12.260 the friars gave her money i don't know if it's the friars or someone else maybe the oh no i think it

00:07:16.640 maybe the basque people who she met someone gave her money three mules and some weapons

00:07:22.080 and three enslaved people and so in the company of the basque man who helped out she left kuzco

00:07:26.920 but then guess what like with the thing with reyes before like el sid's friends were like

00:07:34.200 we will avenge this guy we're his right again yeah so en route somewhere some of el sid's

00:07:41.480 friends confronted her including a constable who arrested her for his murder or sorry who wanted

00:07:47.800 to arrest her for the murder but they tried to arrest her but she obviously fought back

00:07:50.840 her five-person squad which is like her the two basque men the three enslaved people

00:07:54.640 um against the eight of them she shot the constable with her pistol and the rest took off

00:07:59.640 and then she continued on alone not sure why other than two of the enslaved people were killed in

00:08:04.880 that fight the basque people i guess were just like godspeed i don't know she just didn't like

00:08:10.080 traveling in a group. So she hung out in the city of Juancavalica, Peru, staying in an inn for a few

00:08:17.460 days, quote, scouting the place out. But then she saw constable approach a justice of the peace

00:08:23.140 outside and show him a picture. They're like, look at the picture. Look at her.

00:08:27.640 Hang on. Wanted, it says, face slashing Catalina. Here's a great quote. Strolled on as if I didn't

00:08:37.840 have a care in the world when in truth my cares were piling up like flies on meat they grab her 1.00

00:08:44.360 she pulls out her pistol in one hand and her sword in the other attacks them then takes off 0.68

00:08:50.920 running steals a horse from a passing man and rides off i love the image of her pistol in one

00:08:56.980 hand sword in the other hand this seems really inefficient like how do you how do you got the

00:09:01.100 pistol if you have a sword in the other hand but like i trust that she can do it oh at this point

00:09:05.760 what can't she do except control herself except like a single good decision so she put so she 0.99

00:09:12.780 stole a horse and then she you know rode off eventually she had to pause to like rest the

00:09:16.080 horse not herself but the horse and then three men on horseback approached waiting across the

00:09:20.280 river towards her they're like we're here to arrest you or like we were sent here to arrest

00:09:23.960 you and she said quote if you've gotten it in your heads to take me alive that cannot be first

00:09:29.160 you'll have to kill me and then you can arrest me truly she just yelled you'll never take me

00:09:34.480 alive covers which like amazing but the men were like quote the truth is we would like nothing 0.97

00:09:40.640 better than to serve you not kill you they're like we stan yeah how would you not i mean the

00:09:48.800 lots of reasons why you could not but so she left them some doubloons and headed off because they

00:09:53.320 didn't actually want to arrest her they just had to go and try so you can see her like legend is

00:09:59.860 growing right like people are fans of hers then she entered the city of ayacucha sold her horse

00:10:07.880 and went out to admire the city the most handsome i'd seen in all fruit side note towards the this

00:10:14.060 is like the final third of her memoir it really gets into like a travelogue where she's just like

00:10:17.700 in this place there was a building that looked like this and this one with a ceiling and i'm

00:10:21.260 just like why why are you telling me this like okay thanks for this like travel advisory

00:10:28.120 she spent the next few days in a local gambling house where else where the sheriff came in and 0.98

00:10:35.140 recognized her as being wanted in cusco so she pulled out the sword her pistol and ran off to

00:10:39.960 hide in the home of a basquero she'd met in town the basques like this is where i really like that's

00:10:45.540 how i explained about the basque country at the beginning because they just like protect their own

00:10:49.420 they're like it's a real thing this is the strongest alumni network i've ever seen in my

00:10:54.420 yeah okay so she says quote there was no word of the case no sign that the law was pursuing

00:10:59.320 the matter but still it seemed like a good idea for me to move on and so yeah she left town her

00:11:05.100 bad luck continued she's met by two constables who asked for her name and she said the devil 1.00

00:11:09.220 yeah you did you messy bitch who lives for drama yeah that's what you said and they grabbed her 1.00

00:11:16.860 and she pulled out her sword people are sword fighting guns are involved then the bishop came 1.00

00:11:20.980 up from his palace with four torch bearers and walked right into the middle, like, come with me

00:11:26.000 if you want to live. And he took Catalina into his house to help dress her wounds, etc. Why?

00:11:33.760 Why? In the morning, the bishop was like, who are you even? And Catalina was like, well,

00:11:42.360 glad you asked. And told her whole story, including gender info, including this passage,

00:11:47.700 quote i left the convent cut my hair traveled here and there embarked disembarked hustled killed

00:11:53.440 maimed wreaked havoc and roamed about until coming to a stop in this very instant at the feet of your

00:11:58.540 eminence so she just like told everything i've just told you and the bishop and his people were

00:12:04.240 basically like but you're a nun are you a virgin um that's what you're concerned about after what 0.78

00:12:13.080 i just told you after this like two hours ago they're like hmm but you're a virgin nut and 1.00

00:12:17.640 she's like i like if you want like women to inspect my like a genital region sure and so 1.00

00:12:23.700 that happened that's not on your bingo card for this podcast by the way virginity inspection 0.94

00:12:30.480 yeah true so the bishop was so touched by news she was not just a woman but a virgin

00:12:36.620 that he was like quote i esteem you as one of the more remarkable people in this world and

00:12:41.900 promise to help you in whatever you do and to aid you in your new life in service to god okay i feel

00:12:48.180 like he is making one jump too many there in that sentence where it's like okay your hymen is intact

00:12:55.300 therefore you are a good person i mean i will say one of the more remarkable people like that is

00:13:03.320 true that is fair but in your new life and service to god seems like a stretch oh but allison

00:13:10.320 she's becoming a nun again what nun era 2.0 i just i got nothing to say tell me more okay so

00:13:20.820 news of the lieutenant nun began to spread around peru and nearby regions so much that the archbishop

00:13:26.940 of lima wanted to meet her so catalina who had been living at this time like in a nunnery

00:13:31.180 with nuns as a woman um so they processed down to the archbishop of lima and like a processional

00:13:37.840 she was like wearing her nun's hat but carrying a sword and everyone in the street was like that's

00:13:41.280 her the lieutenant nun that's me she met the archbishop and he was like hey which convent

00:13:48.920 do you want to live in there are numerous ones and she was like well i'd have to see them all first

00:13:53.640 she went to see all of them okay house hunters international don't ever move into an apartment

00:13:59.720 until you inspect it yourself yeah so she eventually chose the convent of la santissima

00:14:04.700 trinidad and lima which is still there um where she remained for two years and five months just

00:14:10.120 like being a nun which i really have trouble picturing i'm sure she was tired and she's 0.96

00:14:16.980 been stabbed like many many times yeah maybe she's sleeping her nap era anyway why did she

00:14:22.500 stay there for only two years and five months because it took that long for news to reach

00:14:25.600 them from spain that in fact she had never taken her vows and in fact is not a nun

00:14:30.700 oh boy so she was like so long nuns and headed back to spain there was an armada just leaving

00:14:39.880 town as there is and so she caught a ride dressed like a man again while on the ship 0.98

00:14:46.520 stopped me if you've heard this before a fight broke out over a game of cards

00:14:49.460 and quote i was forced to cut another man's face with a little knife i had on me

00:14:53.920 as happens these things happen well if you've been a nun for so long she just had this built

00:15:01.720 up pent up like face slashing energy for two years and five months since i've slashed a good 0.97

00:15:06.820 face so the general removed him to a different ship where there was more people from the basque 0.99

00:15:10.560 country because he's like we can't keep you on a ship with like spanish people let's just put you

00:15:14.480 on the basque ship where i guess face slashing is cooler anyway so they made it across the ocean to 0.90

00:15:22.960 the spanish city of cadiz meeting up with another armada where two more of catalina's brothers were

00:15:28.660 there i'm putting down two marks on our random family members list yeah but at this point she's

00:15:34.480 the lieutenant nun like people know who she is she's not being like i'm francisco like people

00:15:40.080 know so they would have been like we're literally your brothers so even though we haven't seen you

00:15:44.120 in 30 years yeah so as an honor to catalina because she's now this famous person the general

00:15:50.340 took one of the brothers into his personal service

00:15:52.080 and give the other a promotion

00:15:53.120 just for being the brothers of the Lieutenant Nunn.

00:15:56.340 So then she went to Sevilla

00:15:57.980 where she had to hide out from,

00:16:00.140 there's not paparazzi, but like just like fans.

00:16:03.840 I like the idea of a 16th century paparazzi

00:16:06.860 is just one man with a sketch pad

00:16:08.720 like furiously drawing her portrait as she walks.

00:16:11.460 Chasing after her like,

00:16:12.420 Catalina, what do you want to say?

00:16:15.160 I need to make a broad sheet.

00:16:16.560 Tell me what you would like to tell the people.

00:16:18.180 Yeah, speaking of like there were,

00:16:19.500 Like people are making, what is, is that it brought to you pamphlets?

00:16:23.040 Like, yeah, pamphlet moment.

00:16:25.560 Definitely stories were being written about her. 0.99

00:16:27.660 Everyone was excited about this whole cross-dressing situation. 0.99

00:16:30.560 Everyone wanted to see the Lieutenant Nunn. 0.90

00:16:32.620 She went to Madrid where she went unnoticed for 20 days and she enjoyed being anonymous. 0.58

00:16:38.380 She didn't, she didn't, she wasn't made for this like famous person life.

00:16:41.160 She's made for the dirt bag life, you know?

00:16:43.520 So then she decided to go to Rome, I think to talk to the Pope.

00:16:47.200 She does later talk to the Pope.

00:16:48.800 she does not this time en route to Rome of course you run into trouble to get to Rome from Spain

00:16:54.380 you have to go through France so while she was in France she was accused of being a Spanish spy and

00:16:58.900 was arrested had all of her money taken and was kept in jail for five days then they were like

00:17:04.400 oh guess you're not a spy sorry so she headed out penniless again barefoot reduced to begging door

00:17:10.460 to door even though she's like the most famous person maybe not famous in France in Toulouse

00:17:16.740 she visited a count who knew her. I don't remember if he was in the story before. And he gave her

00:17:21.120 new clothes, some money, and a horse. So she's like rethinking the Rome thing, headed back to

00:17:28.240 Madrid, where she presented herself before the king and requesting a soldier's pension for all

00:17:33.400 of her military service. And she's like, I wrote a memoir of my life story if you'd like to read it.

00:17:38.880 And he's like, we'll think about it. I don't think she met the king. I think she just went

00:17:42.320 and was like, can you please tell the king? This is me. This is my memoir. I would like a pension.

00:17:46.480 thank you then she went to barcelona literally she cannot stop traveling and she and her travel

00:17:53.780 companions not sure who they are were robbed feels like spain is just no no more or less 0.97

00:18:01.620 dangerous than um south america but it's just like there's assholes everywhere anyway they were robbed 0.99

00:18:08.080 you might ask yourself why didn't you just stab and kill everybody she's gonna have an answer for 0.99

00:18:13.520 that in a bit anyway so they arrived in barcelona quote embarrassed and naked after nightfall on 0.94

00:18:19.660 easter sunday 1626 so this is again where we're just like does she mean naked or does she just

00:18:27.040 mean like wearing just our like inner right pantaloons or whatever a full night's tale

00:18:33.240 scenario where she's trudging naked down the road like not sure at this point though people do know 0.99

00:18:38.980 she's a woman so that wouldn't be a deal breaker like in terms of her identity she went from house

00:18:46.460 to house crying out that she had been robbed and some people were like well here's my like old 1.00

00:18:50.700 cloak or whatever then she took shelter in a door with some other wretches from whom she learned the

00:18:56.260 king was in town so she went in the morning to see the king to explain what had happened 0.92

00:19:00.920 and he was like how is it you allowed yourself to be robbed you know victim blaming but also

00:19:08.460 So what we know of her, like, yeah.

00:19:12.700 Sorry, he said, how is it you allowed yourself to be robbed?

00:19:15.100 And Catalina said, senor, I had no choice in the matter, which is her answer.

00:19:19.120 I think it was like there was like 20 of them, you know, three on her side or whatever.

00:19:23.640 Anyway, the king is like, OK, I will read your memoir.

00:19:26.120 And he did.

00:19:27.500 And he's like, what a great story.

00:19:29.340 And he granted her four times the allowance of a part time lieutenant, along with 30 ducats

00:19:33.200 for expenses and hardship.

00:19:35.320 And she's like, thank you so much.

00:19:36.940 I'm off to Genoa.

00:19:38.460 why i don't know obviously one of the first things that happened when she got to italy is

00:19:43.660 she got into a sword fight with some guy totally not her fault other people noticed and it turned

00:19:48.540 into a big like group sword fight and she was able to slip away unnoticed because everyone was

00:19:55.000 i love it i want to see that in the film version honestly that feels very Shakespearean to me

00:20:01.840 actually um and then she caught a ride on a ship going to rome where she met the pope and that's

00:20:10.720 when the pope was pope urban the eighth and i was excited for a bit when i saw the crossover because

00:20:15.200 remember she's born around same time as njenga i'm like is this the same pope who njenga was

00:20:19.040 writing letters to like no that was another guy 20 years later but this was the pope who summoned

00:20:26.080 Galileo to recant his work, which he famously did not. So a notable Pope not known for being

00:20:32.640 understanding. And I think the, well, the way that she was able to see the Pope is she was

00:20:37.220 so famous. Like at this point, even in Italy, it was just like the Lieutenant nun. Like, so she's

00:20:40.960 like, okay, like to her credit, she's like, how can I parlay this into like money and privileges

00:20:46.640 for myself? So she told the Pope, her life story. This is like the third time she's been like,

00:20:51.060 I was born Catalina de Arousa, San Sebastian, whatever. Anyway, so she's like, here's my life

00:20:59.560 story. Please note, I am also a woman and a virgin. And he, quote, seemed amazed to hear

00:21:06.260 such things and graciously gave me leave to pursue my life in men's clothing, all the while reminding

00:21:11.340 me it was my duty to lead an honest existence from that day forward. And then his commandment,

00:21:15.580 thou shall not kill was important and should be obeyed you remember that you're not supposed to

00:21:22.640 kill people i feel like you've forgotten that you're not supposed to kill people so let me

00:21:26.140 just say it one more time it's one of the like main rules of the religion kind of a big one we 0.97

00:21:33.140 have but also just like of life in a secular way i love that the pope was like i'm i really could

00:21:40.240 not possibly care less if you wore pants or not but like please stop killing people that would be

00:21:44.920 great. But yeah, so she got official papal dispensation to wear pants, which is pretty

00:21:51.680 iconic. Amazing. Yeah. So this is, I was reading, there's a book called Transgender Warriors by

00:21:59.260 Leslie Feinberg, which doesn't say a lot about Catalina, so I didn't mention it in my references,

00:22:03.760 but where Catalina is mentioned one time, what Leslie Feinberg says is notable is that

00:22:09.600 compare and contrast to Joan of Arc. So there's like 200 years difference, but it's notable that

00:22:15.420 the Catholic church and French ruling class saw Joan's gender expression, e.g. pants wearing, 1.00

00:22:21.020 as a threat where Catalina, who fought on the side of colonization, had the Pope's approval 1.00

00:22:25.120 to keep wearing pants. So almost like there's inconsistency in the rules that are applied by

00:22:33.820 the Catholic church. Anyway, she has pants permission. She has a generous pension, 0.95

00:22:39.300 but she's still like, I feel like this might 30 years old. So I think around that, but even in

00:22:45.940 Rome, she was super famous princess, famous people, like other famous people, like painters and

00:22:49.820 whatever bishops, everyone followed her around, like literally followed her around. She says,

00:22:54.280 wherever I went, people's doors were open. And in the six weeks I spent in Rome,

00:22:57.920 scarcely a day went by when I did not dine with princess. And then there's like a scene where

00:23:02.360 she's walking down the street and three like women like sex workers are like hey are you 1.00

00:23:06.220 Catalina de Arousa and she like draws her sword and she's like get away from me and that's the 1.00

00:23:10.800 end of the memoir but that's not the end of my story it has a wild place to end your memoir

00:23:17.000 yeah it was it's and it's not just like and then she died in the moment it's like no this is the

00:23:23.780 memoir and that's that's the end of it I would end it with like and then I got people permission

00:23:29.140 to wear pants the end but honestly yeah that that is the climax of the story for me i guess this is

00:23:34.360 more like a post-credits sequence um so here's what probably happened next so she may have settled

00:23:40.900 for a while in naples where she wrote the manuscript that became her memoir called the

00:23:44.820 story of the nun ensign uh the manuscript was left in italy um where many years after her death it

00:23:51.660 was found by a spanish man who published it in 1829 which reminds me of how mary shelley like

00:23:56.260 left all of her papers in like a French hotel. She wrote her memoir, left it there. It was not

00:24:02.100 published. And then she returned to Spain where she met the playwright, Juan Perez de Montalban,

00:24:09.020 who wrote a drama based on stories told to him by Catalina. And the play obviously became very

00:24:14.100 popular. So the character in it was not called Catalina de Arauso. The character was called

00:24:17.420 Guzman. So as you understand, as a person who's written historical fiction, Montalban was like,

00:24:24.180 okay i need to give this like a character arc i need to like have motivation a sequence of

00:24:31.000 murders spread across the country yeah i can't just just be like this nihilistic person who just

00:24:36.960 like never learns from their mistakes and to have like a story so this is where the story is in this

00:24:42.580 play um is that catalina sort of falls in like chivalrous love with this woman and but then like

00:24:50.420 the woman there's also a man and then eventually Catalina and the woman are caught together and

00:24:55.540 the woman thinks Catalina is a man anyway and that's what she has to be like no I'm a woman 0.98

00:24:59.440 so she like reveals her identity in order to protect the like virtue of the woman she loves 0.94

00:25:04.580 and the woman she loves marries this man so it's like okay let's take Catalina so like her adventures

00:25:08.460 are in there too but it's wrapped up in this like love story situation but also cross-dressing women

00:25:13.880 plays were like very popular in the era and time as you know there were surprisingly more than one

00:25:20.400 of them which is like wonderful love them as a genre wonderful which is interesting because so

00:25:26.820 in spain um women were allowed to act in plays and like in england so it was like actual like it was

00:25:33.900 women playing characters who were disguised as men so a lot of it was like people thought it was

00:25:39.480 so sexy to see women in pants so the women characters were often um it was a male gazey

00:25:45.940 sort of like cross-dressing like which is different from in england where it was like men playing

00:25:49.280 women playing men where it's all like this metatextual like woo but in spain it was more

00:25:54.040 just like this is the way we can see women in pants how sexy yes even though it was like illegal

00:26:00.060 for women to wear pants except for not on stage there are no rules in the theater everything's

00:26:04.440 allowed exactly everything was allowed so it was like i think the authorities or whatever tried to 0.98

00:26:09.180 like tamper down on that but like everyone loved these women in pants play so much they're like

00:26:13.140 well i can't stop it they're so popular and it was during this time that she had the painting made of 0.98

00:26:17.960 her where she's just like scowling with her like bob haircut and he was the painters francisco

00:26:22.680 pacheco who is a very notable painter who painted like um who wrote don quixote cervantes like he

00:26:29.780 painted him like he so it really shows like how popular and famous she was that like he painted

00:26:35.100 her eventually tiring of this sedentary life as one might imagine she's been in one place for like

00:26:42.280 multiple months yeah well and also she's like 30 years old she's not just like oh i'm gonna

00:26:48.600 retire to a life in the country she's still like got lots of killings left to do right

00:26:53.300 she wasn't just like i'm gonna go on adventure come back write my memoir and just like peace

00:26:57.820 out like run a vineyard like no she didn't want any of that she wanted just like run around be 0.67

00:27:03.240 a dirtbag and suddenly she's this like celebrity and she's like i want to just like be a dirtbag 0.53

00:27:07.020 again. But because of various reasons, she had to ask the king for permission to return to the 0.85

00:27:12.740 Americas to go into business there. She couldn't just like go because she was famous. She couldn't

00:27:17.460 just like hang around using pseudonyms anymore. So he agreed. And so now she's using the name

00:27:23.460 Francisco de Arauzo because I guess she'd been Francisco de Loyola for so long. She just got

00:27:28.100 used to being Francisco, but now she used her own last name. And this is where it's like,

00:27:32.380 is this a trans narrative like she took on this male name even though everyone knew she was a

00:27:39.060 woman yeah but this is where we're just like hard to say her memoir she wrote begins with i

00:27:48.320 donia catalina de aroso right so like i'm just going with that so the ship headed from mexico

00:27:55.540 um 1635 the ship landed so she's like 40 ish now i think so the ship landed at vera cruz

00:28:03.180 which is coincidentally where malinzine was born 135 years earlier it's a little crossover moment

00:28:09.180 of ghosts but there was a terrible storm so do they i don't know if they show this on the pirate

00:28:13.940 show i don't know a lot about boats but like when your boat gets close to land you don't just like

00:28:19.940 park your boat on the beach you like drop anchor a bit a ways out and you have your little boats

00:28:27.040 yeah your little right you get on your little boats and then the little boats are what goes

00:28:30.240 to shore right right because otherwise your boat is going to get stuck in the sand and you'll never

00:28:33.840 get it out again exactly so there's a terrible storm so like oh can we get on our little boats

00:28:37.840 like this is a terrible storm um but a group decided to disembark despite the dangers guess

00:28:42.360 what catalina was one of those people the small landing boat finally reached shore but when the

00:28:46.940 captain did roll call catalina was not there so they all assumed she had drowned and maybe she

00:28:53.280 had from this point on there are no records in of catalina and official spanish recordings but

00:29:00.420 it's also possible she took advantage of the situation to take on a new persona escaping the

00:29:04.780 whole lieutenant nun fame game and just landing on shore and being like i'm alonzo gutierrez

00:29:10.180 or more last names for a simple llama herder 0.64

00:29:14.940 i think because there was a thing before she left she removed herself from the estate of her family 0.81

00:29:23.600 like she just didn't want to be involved in inheriting anything and then there's some

00:29:28.620 paperwork that mentioned like a brother called i think antonio de arraso and none of the brothers

00:29:33.220 was called that so they're like is that her i love that her biography begins like she's born in this

00:29:38.840 year or maybe not and it ends with like she might have died or not she's still in the wind so

00:29:46.560 according to some accounts she lived another 15 years after this in a small mexican village of

00:29:51.580 dying in 1650 at age 58 but this is like she was a famous person so i think people would just be

00:29:58.920 like oh yeah i totally saw the ghost of elvis you know sort of thing the bishop of puebla believed

00:30:04.040 that he had buried a woman there

00:30:05.980 who was the Lieutenant Nunn

00:30:07.220 and her tombstone of this woman, 0.99

00:30:09.280 which is maybe her,

00:30:10.320 was engraved with the words,

00:30:11.520 here lies a brave and Christian woman,

00:30:14.100 which is debatable.

00:30:16.900 No, if you could just give me your vote

00:30:18.500 for what you think is a worse thing

00:30:20.920 to put on a tomb,

00:30:21.640 which is Fredigan's tomb,

00:30:22.980 which is like,

00:30:24.200 here lies a wife and mother

00:30:25.560 or Catalina's tomb that says,

00:30:28.100 here lies a brave and Christian woman.

00:30:31.260 That's hard. 0.74

00:30:32.320 That's hard.

00:30:32.840 because those are two really bad options i wow it's almost as bad as the model of the story being

00:30:40.960 persistence and hard work well and here's the thing about this one i won't make you actually

00:30:45.880 vote they're both equally terrible i think we can agree but so even the fact that's like here

00:30:50.280 lies a brave and christian woman where it's like christian debatable woman debatable brave brave 0.99

00:30:57.100 yeah stupid hard hard to draw the line okay so the legacy the character of the lieutenant nun 0.99

00:31:05.640 was and remains today a source of inspiration for writers playwrights filmmakers and artists 0.99

00:31:09.980 although you had not heard of her so not any large notable works she is an inspiration for

00:31:16.920 me now yes yes yeah and people yes so she's also been an inspiration for many analysis and academic

00:31:25.380 papers in gender studies programs. So she has been featured in films, notably the 1944 Mexican 0.99

00:31:31.700 film La Monja Alferez, which means the non-lieutenant, which I sent you a picture of that.

00:31:37.440 So it's starring Maria Felix, who is a very famous and sexy Mexican lady film star.

00:31:46.300 It was directed by the Mexican director Emilio Gomez Muriel. And so this is mostly kind of like

00:31:52.600 the plays from her lifetime it was mostly film made to show of how good maria felix looks in

00:31:56.740 pants with tall boots like she is styled up like she's a face of makeup like she her hair is like 0.72

00:32:03.180 curled it's like yes this is a woman in 1944 it's a movie that was made i think maria felix had done

00:32:09.180 a previous movie where she played like an oldie time woman who wore pants and they were like how

00:32:12.780 can we get maria another film in pants um so it was very much just like let's have a movie with

00:32:19.120 this sexy actress so that is that is the legacy which leads us to scoring oh my goodness now I

00:32:30.840 don't know how you score these people on your podcast because my instinct is always just to

00:32:35.060 give everybody full full points all the way across the board so hard I do as well I do as well but I

00:32:39.840 feel like I need to end I like with the enjango one that like it was a struggle for me um to just

00:32:46.500 because i'm just trying to bring up my list of things but for part of it like the first one is

00:32:51.540 scandalousness and part of that and part of where njinga didn't get perfect marks in that for

00:32:58.140 instance is she did stuff like the murder wedding but everyone was kind of like okay like it to us 0.92

00:33:05.700 feels scandalous but to the people so i think of it in a cultural context like how scandalous was

00:33:10.740 the stuff this person was doing to the people around them at the time so what i will say about

00:33:17.220 catalina is um not just the like pants wearing like she became this celebrity because i was like

00:33:22.420 pants she's wearing pants which was scandalous right and then also like yes she was being this 0.98

00:33:28.920 like wild west serial killer but kind of everyone else was but there was that part where they were

00:33:34.540 like you you're more than all everybody else here yeah your genocidal tendencies are too much for 0.82

00:33:41.360 even us the spanish armada so like she was yeah so like she does seem to be scandalous even for

00:33:50.200 her time and i do think this is might be her i feel like this is where she would score highest

00:33:58.800 yeah yeah it's tricky it's always tricky because i'm just like if we if we like

00:34:04.540 assuming it's a 10 but like what could make it be not a 10 would be that she when they found out

00:34:09.880 that she was a woman they weren't like burn the witch they were like we like that yeah she did

00:34:16.180 have like a fan club these people kept helping her yeah the basque people and also just like

00:34:22.980 the friars but the fact that the pope was like like joan of arc for instance yeah they were like 0.96

00:34:28.100 no this is terrible let's kill her and katerina they were like you little scamp wearing pants

00:34:32.480 i'll allow it so like the effect of it was like scandalous and exciting to people but it wasn't 0.99

00:34:37.820 to the extent that she was like yeah it was never listened in an interesting way to them

00:34:42.760 she was never punished for the scandal really but like how many people did she kill for how many 0.82

00:34:51.500 bullshit reasons yeah i don't know why is your instinct on this i don't think it's a 10 because

00:34:58.040 of the cultural context but i do think it's certainly a high score yes um i think you have 0.81

00:35:06.320 better instincts than me i'm thinking between an eight and a nine i'm let's go 8.5 okay okay

00:35:13.000 now scheminess is interesting she had a lot of schemes most of them bad yes are we is this good

00:35:20.000 scheminess quality scheminess or is this just determination to fuck things up this yeah this

00:35:26.080 is just like did she do schemes full stop whether they were good or bad or successful or not we have 1.00

00:35:33.840 to give her some points for spitting out the host as a scheme like that is an a-plus scheme that was 0.87

00:35:39.920 a good scheme i do think that's a lot of the stuff it's like she was gonna be killed but then someone

00:35:46.320 was just like well i'll rescue you and that wasn't like her even though persistence and hard work is

00:35:50.260 the moral of the story. Right. That was just like a deus ex machina. That wasn't her scheming her

00:35:57.500 way out of trouble. And a lot of the trouble she got into wasn't scheming either. It was just kind

00:36:02.680 of like I got in a bar fight and killed someone. It was just one terrible decision after another.

00:36:08.460 It was there was not a lot of machinations behind the scenes. It was just like, what's a loud,

00:36:11.940 silly thing I can do? But counterpoint, the scheme to escape the nunnery and then to sew the clothes

00:36:17.420 was pretty good that was well planned but so much of what she did was just chaotic and not

00:36:23.860 like scheminess rewards people who like have a goal plan towards it and execute something cool

00:36:31.680 and she did in that first one getting out of the nunnery that was a executable scheme beyond that

00:36:37.180 it was kind of just like how can i live my chaos lifestyle yeah so it was like a thousand little

00:36:44.600 schemes most of them were just like what if i stabbed someone yeah which is not really like

00:36:51.340 i like to word scheminess it's like it's like intelligence in that way it's kind of like

00:36:56.240 someone who like is able to just like roll with the punch and see what's going on and she wasn't

00:37:01.380 not that she needed to be um this isn't there's a lot to criticize but i'm not criticizing i'm 0.90

00:37:06.360 not saying that her schemes were bad but it's just like she was not in the scheming game they

00:37:11.280 didn't need to be yeah like scheminess you get a lot more of that like if you're in royal court 1.00

00:37:15.640 right where you need to like get alliances and whatever and she was just a lone wolf like she 0.99

00:37:19.200 was going place to place did some shit moved on yeah she wasn't there to be schemey but escaping 0.91

00:37:25.440 the nunnery was a good scheme the the communion house was a good scheme but it was suggested to 0.88

00:37:29.800 her by someone else i still think she pulled it off with flair though what about like a five for

00:37:35.720 scheminess i'd allow it because the two schemes were quite effective yes that she did do they

00:37:44.220 were two good schemes through a life not particularly schemey okay so significance

00:37:50.760 is this is where people who are not literal royals don't often score highly um

00:37:58.400 the significance okay so like she did in her day she inspired plays like she was like

00:38:05.060 has portrait made like people really excited about her at the time but it hasn't

00:38:10.420 there's not today the stuff she did inspires like the gender stuff like it's really interesting

00:38:17.860 um and she people writing about that and i don't want to be like especially with like

00:38:23.460 queer history stuff it's like what's the significance it's like well this person

00:38:26.340 lived chaotically and then died but it's like but it's significant to like the canon of like queer

00:38:31.220 history that her story exists and so i think that should be respected she was significant at the

00:38:39.300 time but it's like yeah as far as like big geopolitical significance she didn't like

00:38:45.640 found a dynasty or change countries no and it's not like she the plays she inspired are still

00:38:52.160 done today although i would love a revival yeah there was the 1944 movie and then there was a

00:38:59.680 later movie i think in the 90s i think during the re-lesbianization era and i think it was also

00:39:03.800 like uh what about a lesbian movie about her so like there's people who've covered on this podcast

00:39:09.380 like mary toft with the rabbits where it's like what is her significance like like no one's ever

00:39:15.400 done a movie about that like no one's so catalina de eroso is one level above that because she has

00:39:21.700 had these things done about her yeah what do you think oh this is hard

00:39:28.220 it's yeah but that's but that's kind of what the categories are for it's like yeah it's a way that

00:39:35.460 different people can score highly in different areas like it's an aberration and weird how high

00:39:41.340 the last couple of people have done because they did have all four things uh-huh this has one

00:39:46.180 category really really high and yeah her significance i don't know it's kind of like

00:39:51.820 that's also there for people who are like if god forbid i ever do a someone like jane seymour

00:39:55.800 who's like extremely boring but incredibly significant it's a way to give someone like 1.00

00:40:02.380 that points if they weren't schemey if they weren't scandalous right what about a five

00:40:08.140 for significance where it's just kind of like it's not high but it's higher than other people 0.67

00:40:15.140 and just like the queer history of it all yeah getting a pants dispensation from the pope i 0.72

00:40:20.640 think is a good moment actually yeah you know what the how many people did that and that would

00:40:25.940 probably set precedent then maybe other people later got pants dispensation i think five sounds

00:40:29.660 fair and also that in terms of significance just like how many battles was she in and were one

00:40:35.360 because of her how many lives did she ruin by murdering people i mean if you're counting

00:40:39.240 significance by how many people she brutally murdered she is very significant the ripple

00:40:43.400 effects of her life in peru yeah i think are so five i'm happy with five okay and then this is a

00:40:51.840 very tricky one for her because the sexism bonus so technically i added that category also for

00:40:57.760 people who could have done more stuff but didn't because sexism was keeping them down right so it's

00:41:04.500 a way it would be rare for someone to have a high sexism number and a high scandalous number you

00:41:11.020 know but i always start off with a baseline of five because like the patriarchy is there and 0.94

00:41:16.900 like all women and other people who are not men faced a certain amount of that bullshit all the 0.99

00:41:24.960 time so the sexism bonus here would be like she had to live in a nunnery from four to 15 even 0.95

00:41:31.100 though that's clearly not what she wanted to be doing and then the fact that like when they found 1.00

00:41:36.200 she was a woman they were like well can we just like let's just do a little genitalia exam um and 0.92

00:41:43.320 then the fact when they fed out she was a woman it was like you're uh you know like she was the 0.97

00:41:47.580 way she's treated so it's like she was treated i don't know better like when she became a celebrity 1.00

00:41:53.320 she hated that but she got more money and kind of more attention but she kind of didn't want that 0.99

00:42:00.900 like she just wanted to be this dirtbag whose gender didn't matter but then it came to really

00:42:05.480 defined her but then she wrote the memoir so she like cashed in on it so she's not like oh no my

00:42:09.180 fame like she wrote a memoir called like i am the lieutenant nun so she wasn't like hiding it

00:42:15.520 yeah i don't think she scores very highly here i think there's some aspects of it sure i think

00:42:22.940 that might be a five as well which is kind of like yeah the standard so when i add that all up

00:42:29.460 15. So that's a 23.5. And again, I just want to reiterate like a score on the Scandalous Business

00:42:37.960 scale is not being like, who's better than each other. It's just like, here's these four random

00:42:41.260 things. And where does everyone fall in these categories? It's 23.5 is 0.5 higher than Boudicca.

00:42:52.180 Boudicca only got a 23, but I guess we don't know. Christopher Marlowe, 22.5.

00:42:56.920 i feel like just well this is just the alison epstein of it all but i think there are

00:43:04.500 people who are fans of christopher marlowe i think would also be fans of catalina i tend to

00:43:09.840 like people who score high on the scandalousness part of the scale and the rest of it is somewhat

00:43:16.040 hit or miss yeah so just like what should i say it was 23.5 but what a story honestly

00:43:24.460 i don't know again like this doesn't mean anyone's better or worse it's just kind of like on these

00:43:29.620 four random things where do people yeah because there's people at the bottom who score high in

00:43:33.160 significance there's people in the bottom who score high in scandalousness but as you get higher

00:43:36.740 it's about can you hit all four categories yeah yeah and it's not like catalina was trying to 0.91

00:43:42.460 no she just wanted to just like kill people and one of the slash faces and big names and that's

00:43:50.740 the thing about it too where you know like I was saying there's so much of the academic stuff is

00:43:55.740 just like but what about what does this mean for gender and there's lots to discuss about that

00:43:58.720 certainly but I feel like both of our takeaway from this is like that is not the most interesting

00:44:04.100 thing about the story no I am there's so much more in the story there's so much everywhere in

00:44:09.940 the story that's just wild and I again like I'm just lately learning more about queer history and 0.99

00:44:16.820 stuff but I think it's also important to talk about queer people who are disasters yes in fact

00:44:23.400 strong agree they don't all need to be wonderful examples of good people they are there are 0.99

00:44:29.380 disasters in every part of history exactly and so just looking at people as nuanced and well-rounded

00:44:36.380 although I think Catalina nuanced well-rounded uh persistent and full of hard work I think that's

00:44:45.440 big takeaway. It's like persistence and hard work is that's how you gain success. Thank you,

00:44:53.400 Alison. Can you tell everybody or remind everybody about your newsletter and other

00:44:58.780 things that they should know about you? Yeah. If you like historical dirt bag stories like this

00:45:04.180 one, I write a newsletter called dirt bag through the ages, which is a sub stack newsletter that

00:45:10.320 just features one different historical dirt bag every two weeks. There will be one about Catalina

00:45:15.200 shortly as soon as i get around to writing it that's at uh rapscallison.scubsag.com it's

00:45:21.540 rapscallion with an s in it and that is also my handle on twitter and instagram if you want to

00:45:25.960 follow me there i'll put all those links in the show notes as well so people can just easily

00:45:29.620 tap a button to follow you and all those things and tell people about your book

00:45:33.060 yeah i wrote a book uh it's called a tip for the hangman it is about uh elizabethan poet

00:45:38.980 christopher marlowe there's lots of dirtbag activities in there too that one is available

00:45:43.720 in all the ways you buy books and all the places you buy books yeah he well I mean we literally

00:45:50.020 did a whole episode where you're talking about him but yeah he had not in the murder way of 0.91

00:45:55.720 Catalina but also just in terms of like queer history people who are like disasters yeah he 0.80

00:46:01.600 just makes bad decisions yes yes which I think yeah well and then I mentioned also but yeah 1.00

00:46:11.260 podcast so there's like the bad gays podcast and they have a book coming out actually also called

00:46:15.020 bad gays and then there's the historically very good friends like um history is gay there's lots

00:46:19.900 of really good podcasts that really delve into queer history and I recommend people listen to 0.97

00:46:24.460 those as well thank you so much thank you and thus ends the saga of Catalina de Arauso and this is

00:46:31.520 also I think the halfway point of this season which is like the longest season that we've done

00:46:38.260 so far there's just so many good stories to tell there's a bunch of episodes still to come

00:46:44.140 and i'll just remind you of all the things i always remind you of so if you go to vulgarhistory.com

00:46:50.500 there's a little place there that's where you can contact me um with your suggestions of people to

00:46:54.860 talk about on the show etc uh if you go to vulgarhistory.store vulgarhistory.store that's

00:47:02.360 where our merch is including two different designs of the persistence and hard work can perform

00:47:07.280 miracles iconic quote one of the designs does have a llama on it and remember you can always

00:47:12.700 use code tits out for free u.s shipping or tits out 10 for 10 off uh we're on instagram at vulgar

00:47:19.640 history pod um on twitter vulgar history and um yeah and then the patreon is there for people who

00:47:30.200 would like to get more content from me every month you get every month or so it's like every

00:47:35.860 four weeks you know months months are different lengths but there's an episode of vulgar peace

00:47:39.960 theater where i'm joined by allison epstein from this episode as well as lana witt johnson to talk

00:47:45.960 about various costume dramas most recently we talked about the animated film anastasia which

00:47:51.940 you might think is that a costume drama and yeah anastasia has so many outfits in that um

00:47:56.680 and then also every month we do so this asshole episodes which is where i just like put a man

00:48:01.940 from history on blast most recently and this was voted on by the patreons i didn't want to do this

00:48:07.180 but i'm glad i learned about it me me um thomas jefferson was the most recent episode there

00:48:12.700 which was frankly mostly just me talking about sally hemings but um yeah and i think that's 0.98

00:48:18.940 everything so thank you so much for listening keep your mask on and your tits out talk to you 0.95

00:48:25.120 next time and again there's like lots more episodes coming so bye-bye 0.98

00:48:31.940 The war is over, and both sides lost.

00:48:49.200 Kingdoms were reduced to cinders, and armies scattered like bones in the dust.

00:48:54.260 Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight.

00:49:01.940 But in the shadow dark, the darkness always wins.

00:49:06.480 This is old school adventuring at its most cruel.

00:49:09.920 Your torch ticks down in real time.

00:49:12.260 And when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job.

00:49:15.860 This is a brutal rules light nightmare with a story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make.

00:49:23.340 This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s.

00:49:25.900 And man, it is so good to be back.

00:49:28.060 Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark every Thursday night at 8 p.m. Eastern on YouTube.com slash the glass cannon with the podcast version dropping the next day.

00:49:38.860 See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark.

00:49:46.220 Hi, listeners.

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00:50:37.140 There are vampires out there.

00:50:39.560 They walk among you, shoulder to shoulder, in the dark.

00:50:42.560 Heading to work, heading home, going to the bar.

00:50:45.080 It's a life just like anyone else's.

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00:50:55.500 We are a fading kind, and I am the first one created in so long.

00:50:59.860 And that is a dangerous thing to be.

00:51:02.100 Those who came before me, elders of all stripes, they do not want to see our kind gone.

00:51:06.500 And they will do anything to keep their power.

00:51:09.660 And for myself, and for Grace, who created me, that is a sword that hangs above our heads.

00:51:15.060 And the worst person of all carries our secret, and he will use it however he sees fit.

00:51:20.760 who do you look to when things are at their darkest from the creators of parkdale haunt

00:51:26.180 comes woodbine a podcast about monsters dreams and changes those you want and those you never

00:51:32.200 saw coming season two arise september 24th distributed by realm

Vulgar History - May 11, 2022

International, part 11： Catalina de Erauso Meets the Pope (pt 3⧸3)

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