Vulgar History - International, part 33： Manuela Sáenz： Post-Revolution (pt 2⧸2)

00:00:00.320 Leading insurers know that fragmented operations don't cut it anymore.

00:00:04.860 Policyholders expect more, and modern insurers meet those expectations with Adyen.

00:00:09.860 From effortless premium collections to instant claims payouts,

00:00:13.500 Adyen's single platform automates the entire policy lifecycle.

00:00:17.360 One platform to manage how money moves, control claims fraud, and automate operations.

00:00:23.060 Adyen, fintech built for your next move.

00:00:26.460 Ready to take your investing knowledge to pro level?

00:00:29.100 this is Fidelity Connects, your daily edge in the markets. Get deep insights on real-time

00:00:34.560 market topics that may impact your investment portfolio. Listen to Fidelity Connects on

00:00:38.840 Spotify today and power your next move tomorrow. Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist 1.00

00:00:56.660 Women's History Comedy Podcast. My name is Anne Foster, and this is Manuela Sainz Part 2. 0.95

00:01:04.700 So last time we... I left you with a bit of a cliffhanger. Manuela had, she'd had her political

00:01:11.480 eye-opening experiences. She like started working with Simone Bolivar. He was away a lot.

00:01:19.100 So then she found ways to be closer to him. And then she, there was some people trying to do a

00:01:25.100 mutiny and she came out in her pants outfit, probably not wearing her fake mustache, but like

00:01:31.120 philosophically and psychologically fake mustache on. And then by her doing that, that really annoyed 1.00

00:01:38.840 the Peruvian government who put her in jail and then exiled her from the country. And so we're

00:01:44.840 going to pick up from there. I do want to, again, because I'm starting a new episode here, just

00:01:49.200 shout out. Thank God for this book, For Glory and Bolivar by Pamela S. Murray, which is a biography

00:01:56.400 about Manuela Sanz, which is based on letters. Everything that she has in this book is based on

00:02:03.720 this letter. She said this. These people wrote this letter to her. It reminds me of this story

00:02:08.520 in a couple ways, not just that it takes place in the Western hemisphere, but a bit of the way

00:02:14.400 the Malincene or La Malinche story, kind of how Malincene as a person has become

00:02:22.160 less talked about as much as like the legend or like the icon of it all. So when you, but when

00:02:27.980 you go back and just crunch down to the details of like, okay, who was Manuela? What actually

00:02:31.840 happened? The process just reminds me of that because it's also, we will talk about later,

00:02:36.660 but like Manuela Sanz has got this huge profile as a hero and as an icon. And I found this book

00:02:43.380 really helpful to look at like, well, what is legend and what can we actually verify? Which is

00:02:48.680 not to say that she didn't do other cool things that no one wrote letters about, but at least the

00:02:54.420 letters clarify a couple of things. Like for instance, we talked about last time there is

00:02:58.220 this widespread rumor or legend that she fought at that battle and like cut off some guy's mustache

00:03:05.100 and that that was the fake mustache she wore. But as far as Pamela S. Murray was able to figure out

00:03:11.120 And she like went like to the archive.

00:03:12.940 She was reading the letters like Manuela and Simone Believer were not actually at that

00:03:17.900 battle.

00:03:18.360 So anyway, good book.

00:03:21.220 Lots of facts there.

00:03:22.460 I didn't mention this last time, I don't think, but I do want to give a shout out to a podcast

00:03:27.000 called the Tris Quentos Literary Podcast.

00:03:29.640 So they are a podcast.

00:03:31.780 It's a seasonal and bilingual podcast dedicated to Latin American literature.

00:03:36.220 They did an episode talking about Manuela Sanz, which I found helpful.

00:03:40.820 partially just to practice my pronunciation of things. And the biggest of shout outs goes to

00:03:46.220 Andrea, Tits Up Brigade member in Ecuador, who both brought Manuela to my attention and also

00:03:52.900 really, really helped answer some questions I had to understand more about culturally how she is

00:03:58.640 seen. So Manuela, banned from Peru, kicked out of Peru. Meanwhile, her long distance boyfriend, 1.00

00:04:06.660 And Simone Bolivar was off leading battles while presumably coughing up small amounts

00:04:12.120 of blood delicately into a handkerchief like sateen in Moulin Rouge because he had tuberculosis

00:04:18.000 and had had for years and years.

00:04:19.760 Do we call that long tuberculosis?

00:04:21.660 I don't know.

00:04:22.900 So she finally left Peru, even though she tried very hard to delay that and not leave.

00:04:30.220 And where did she go?

00:04:31.500 back to her hometown of Quito and just kind of waiting there for news about what Simone was up 0.79

00:04:38.220 to. He hadn't read to her in Aegis. He was currently in Venezuela doing various bodily

00:04:44.500 related things. I did. I'm not going to say that I use this as a source because I didn't,

00:04:49.500 but it was an interesting book I got from the library. When is this from?

00:04:53.100 this is a picture book from 1992 it's called a picture book of simone bolivar by david a adler

00:05:01.760 and i this same person has written picture books about people like thomas jefferson george

00:05:08.680 washington abraham lincoln to his credit he's also written about helen keller harriet tubman

00:05:14.240 martin luther king jr so not just like white men but anyway i got this book out from the library

00:05:20.620 partially because I was just borrowing a bunch of books about Simon Bolivar,

00:05:24.260 but also because I just kind of wanted to see what's his deal?

00:05:27.180 How can I understand his importance to history?

00:05:31.300 And there's so much detail about like he went into this country and then liberated it,

00:05:37.020 but then it stopped being liberated and stuff.

00:05:38.780 And basically this picture book goes through all that stuff.

00:05:43.400 But the sense I get from all of this, and this is a Manuela Sanz podcast.

00:05:48.080 this is a social history podcast we're talking about her as a person not about the specific

00:05:53.740 politics of it all because there's a lot and that's just like not what i was researching

00:05:58.180 but effectively simon bolivar is just like running all over all of the southern american

00:06:05.340 continent except for brazil because that's portugal's colony brazil in around the same

00:06:11.480 era as well um emancipated themselves from portugal so he's just like let's make all these

00:06:16.140 countries of South America, all the Spanish ones, let's make them be not baby Spain anymore. Let's 0.95

00:06:21.560 make them all be their own countries. But his dream was to make them all be one big, sort of

00:06:24.920 like the United States. Like he, something I read, I think it might've been in the Pamela S. Murray

00:06:30.380 book. Like she was saying some people saw him as like the second coming of George Washington. He

00:06:33.980 was like a figure of that level. And he kind of wanted to make like all of the former Spanish 1.00

00:06:39.120 places. I don't know if they're like summer territories and some are called like the

00:06:43.460 Audencia. But he basically wanted to take all of those and make it kind of be like the United

00:06:46.980 States. But it'll all be one country and he'd be in charge of it. That was his dream. So anyway,

00:06:51.860 at this point, he's in Venezuela and his girlfriend, Manuela, wrote to him. And I love

00:06:58.020 the way of these letters. And also, like, side note, we have these letters because she was such

00:07:01.680 a good archivist. She kept these letters. People were like, at various points, they were like,

00:07:06.480 give us the letters. We want to destroy the letters. And she's like, no, I'm the keeper of

00:07:09.360 the letters and she like saved them so we can know all this information like specifically about her

00:07:14.680 anyway so one of her letters she wrote does it cost you so much to write me how true is it that

00:07:20.300 long absences kill love i have conserved my passion for you in order to conserve my peace

00:07:25.000 and happiness so believer was just like okay i should probably like invite her to see me or

00:07:30.580 whatever and well he did and then she went to see him so she brought her entourage with her to just 0.95

00:07:36.140 like relocate to go be with him. Um, her entourage consisted of presumably just a whole bunch of

00:07:43.340 servants, a large enough entourage. She needed 14 mules, eight for baggage and six for riding. 0.99

00:07:49.580 And she headed off to Bogota where she settled into a house on San Carlos street. I'm going to

00:07:55.900 say like street names because those come up every now and then. So I presume that those are still

00:08:00.160 called the same thing and you can go visit them if you live in South America. Anyway, so her house

00:08:05.740 was really close to so he lived in the presidential palace because I believe at this point there's the

00:08:12.780 whole Gran Colombia thing is happening where it's kind of like all those former Spanish places were

00:08:17.680 now one country and he called Gran Colombia and he was the president of it all so he's in the

00:08:23.300 presidential palace she moved into a big house very close to there which showed how important 0.82

00:08:28.880 she was which is like with Hortense Mancini where she moved into the house like close to where the 0.99

00:08:33.640 king lived, like that sort of thing. So it's like, she's the mistress, here's where she lives. It's

00:08:37.380 like next door to him, but not together. And again, I respect couples who do not cohabitate,

00:08:42.940 if you can afford it, recommended. So at this point, Bolivar, so his plans were to install

00:08:52.240 himself as president for life, which is like, whenever anyone in any historical anything is

00:08:59.040 like, what if I just am in charge of this forever? Like, that's like a red flag of like dictator

00:09:06.080 faps. And the people of Bogota were not super into the plan of him being president for life.

00:09:14.940 And this was one part of just various crises that all start that become extremely problematic for

00:09:22.560 him at this point. So he wanted to realize his ambitious agenda, one that would coincidentally

00:09:28.240 also enhance his own personal power and authority. And his enemies did not want that.

00:09:34.080 Specifically, these enemies were like young, like lawyers and bureaucrats who wanted to maintain

00:09:39.980 their own status. And it's the sort of thing where like, they had higher status because they were

00:09:44.420 good friends, like an old boys club scenario with like the people who were in charge. But if he was

00:09:48.800 in charge, he didn't, they weren't enemies. Like they wanted the person, if there was going to be

00:09:52.600 one president for life of like Grand Columbia, they wanted it to be somebody who would like

00:09:57.420 could do favors for them which again is like very much vibes of like contemporary politics

00:10:02.860 everywhere in the world so believer was like he was like well what if i become like the dictator

00:10:10.200 like what if i'm not voted in but like just become dictator or no i think i think he wanted to be

00:10:17.100 literally have the parliament vote him in as dictator that was unpopular um this is especially

00:10:23.980 and popular among a guy who's going to become a main character in this story, his arch rival,

00:10:29.640 who's Francisco de Paula Santander, who they fought alongside in the like, freeing these areas

00:10:39.700 from Spain era. But now in this kind of like they're freed from Spain and who's going to be

00:10:44.900 in charge era, Santander and Bolivar were on opposite sides of each other. He was also, I think

00:10:52.180 at this point the vice president but they both had followers so people like manuela who were like

00:10:59.140 on bolivar's side were the bolivarians people who supported santander were the santanderistas

00:11:05.720 and yes this is taking up a lot of his energy which meant you know he didn't have a lot of

00:11:14.160 time even though they were now together in like the same city he and manuela didn't have a lot

00:11:17.740 of time to like hang out together which i think she was cool with like as long as she was there

00:11:21.160 And she was like in the mix, like she wasn't just like, oh, why don't we have date night?

00:11:24.820 Like, that's not what she's about.

00:11:26.780 And she was playing a role here that she did before.

00:11:29.980 And she will continue to throughout this story from now on, which is just kind of being like

00:11:35.020 a mediator, sort of like a link between Believer and various scattered friends and supporters.

00:11:40.180 Like she was so personable.

00:11:42.400 And so, I don't know, charismatic and friendly and persuasive, like she was able to host

00:11:46.900 parties and change people's minds.

00:11:48.700 or just like if someone was like on the verge of like maybe not supporting Believer anymore,

00:11:52.680 she could like convince them to like this was a thing that she was very proficient at doing.

00:11:59.080 My notes here say, so a bunch of things happened. Believer declared the nation in crisis 0.98

00:12:05.340 and he stepped in to assume emergency dictator powers to quote, save it. So that happens. He's 0.97

00:12:14.960 like i guess what now i am the dictator manuela was like that's her guy so she's right there

00:12:22.320 supporting him and encouraging other people to support him including uh she threw a major

00:12:28.320 party so this was another thing that she did a lot of and now i don't it escapes me like listeners

00:12:34.680 who have more recently binged the entire all of the episodes of vulgar history help me out here

00:12:39.940 there was somebody else who just like party planning was like a major political thing

00:12:46.820 they did wasn't there somebody is that Hortense or is that somebody else 0.99

00:12:50.920 anyway her she threw parties and they were not just like a place to have fun but also

00:12:58.440 they were important for just kind of the social aspect like I was saying you know like making

00:13:03.720 sure that the people who were supporting Believer felt like that was the right thing and it was like

00:13:07.420 a fun time. Anyway, so this was a particularly notable party. So his birthday, July 28th,

00:13:15.360 1828. Alcohol was flowing. Everyone's having a nice time. Manuela probably wearing her mustache.

00:13:22.360 One thing led to another and somebody made an effigy of Santander. So like a life-size doll

00:13:29.940 of Santander, just like, ha ha, LOL. Like, let's do this. I don't know if it was made of pillows

00:13:34.560 or like straw, whatever. Cause they all like hated him and he hated them. Like anyway,

00:13:42.340 so they made this effigy of Santander. There was priests were there. So priest gave last

00:13:47.340 rites to the effigy and the effigy was then put to death by a firing squad. Priest, I

00:13:54.180 guess the same priest said a sermon over the dead quote body of the effigy, which was just

00:13:59.220 kind of like a thing that happens I don't know it's it's giving me like don't you know sports

00:14:06.220 teams if you have like the rival team you like make you have a doll of like their mascot or

00:14:12.300 whatever I don't know anyway but these were like real people this was like a really tense situation

00:14:17.100 they did this like Manuel I'm sure was like lol this was a very scandalous thing when people found

00:14:23.600 out about it to the point that like both Believer and Manuela had to like make public statements

00:14:28.760 both being like Manuela had nothing to do with this like other people were doing it like she

00:14:34.100 was shocked and appalled nothing to do with her and this is where it's like well we have the

00:14:38.420 letters and we have the like broadside saying this but it's like everything I've read about

00:14:43.240 Manuela makes me feel like this was totally something she would do this was totally something

00:14:47.220 she would have been into like she's a prankster this is her whole vibe anyway so they're both

00:14:53.840 like totally not her. She didn't do it. Yeah. There's a quote, I forget if I said this last

00:14:59.440 time, but she said in one of her letters herself, she said, I love nothing better than laughter and

00:15:03.260 a good joke. But anyway, this was like, you know, whatever. People were upset about it.

00:15:10.980 I think that the Santanderistas use this as like, they got like overly upset about it to try and

00:15:16.520 make the Bolivarians look bad. And also just to try to really scape out Manuela and be like,

00:15:23.980 she is this, who is this like scandalous, like insane woman? She's wearing pants. She has a fake 1.00

00:15:29.980 mustache. Um, and she did this like disgraceful thing. Although I would say like the priest is 1.00

00:15:36.380 the one like priest was all in this as well. So the Santanderistas were just like, Oh, like not 1.00

00:15:43.400 only is Believer terrible and a dictator, but like he's taking advice from this like mad woman.

00:15:48.920 And it's from around this time that Believer referred to Manuela in a letter as the amiable 0.85

00:15:53.460 mad woman, which is the thing that people often say about her. And I feel like could be a merch

00:15:59.040 slogan. Wait and see. But in the letter, Believer was basically like, what can I do? Like she,

00:16:05.380 you can't, if this is what she's going to do, you can't stop her. That's kind of like her whole

00:16:09.560 thing like she is just like nobody can control her behavior not even me like the literal dictator 0.98

00:16:14.620 slash her boyfriend but this is where um some of the manuela bad reputation stuff comes from where 1.00

00:16:23.800 it's just like oh she was crazy she was like i don't think it's like specifically this because 0.99

00:16:29.400 like but it's it's the sort of like oh she's a fiery latina like sort of vibes even though like 0.70

00:16:35.140 everyone is in the story is like the same race anyway they're all just like oh she's so crazy

00:16:40.860 so which is an easy way to dismiss her and her importance and also it was a way for the 0.65

00:16:45.080 Santanderistas to make Bolivar look bad so they could maybe take over from him a few weeks later

00:16:52.140 so that party was in like late July so August 10th Bolivar attended a masked ball and I love

00:17:00.340 a masked ball moment. The Santanderistas planned to attend this event, having hidden daggers in

00:17:08.460 their costumes and to stab him to death, like big et-tu-brute vibes. But, so for some reason, 0.96

00:17:16.280 Manuela not attending this party. Not sure why. Was she not invited? It might have been like,

00:17:21.180 let's just like lay low for a minute. That's what I suspect it was. She was like, it might

00:17:26.380 have taken attention away from Bolivar if she was there. They're just trying to like,

00:17:29.700 let this kind of like effigy saga kind of like, let's just let that kind of diet. Anyway, she

00:17:35.380 wasn't at the party, but she had heard because she had a spy network because she's amazing.

00:17:41.040 She heard that this was going to happen. And so she showed up to the party to try and warn

00:17:46.020 believer. She showed up, I believe I wrote down here wearing her military uniform because I guess

00:17:53.080 she wanted to be taken seriously, her like colonel uniform, but she was denied entry by the guard.

00:17:58.300 why was this because the guard was one of the conspiracers he was a Santanderista so

00:18:04.260 she was like okay but like I need to warn him like my boyfriend's in there he's gonna be

00:18:09.580 assassinated slash he's also like the dictator so she again this is where it's like a couple

00:18:16.860 different retellings of the story but I'm gonna go with the one that I find the most cool so 1.00

00:18:22.220 she went away disguised herself in dirty rags like an old crazy beggar woman came back and started 0.97

00:18:29.260 yelling and acting insane um potentially yelling things like long live the liberator like which 0.99

00:18:34.840 is about believer she was acting so just like goofy and weird which on the one hand is like 0.98

00:18:40.000 oh manuela like what will she do next but she was just making such a like she would have had like a 1.00

00:18:45.100 liquor bottle or something anyway she was just like making a big scene to the point that like 1.00

00:18:50.240 people inside the party were like manuela is outside like acting insane and they went to

00:18:54.440 believe her and he's like oh my god like the amy bold madwoman that's so manuela so he like went

00:19:00.060 outside to reprimand her to be like stop being insane but she got him outside and then they left 0.69

00:19:06.980 so at midnight when the conspirators came to kill him he was gone so she had saved him

00:19:12.840 in a really iconic way and then she saved him in an even more iconic way so that was august 10th

00:19:20.240 So a month and a bit later, September 25th, another assassination attempt occurred, but

00:19:26.860 Manuela again saved the day. So this time, the conspirators planned to attack the presidential

00:19:33.540 palace, like to come into Simone's room and just like assassinate him there. So this group consisted

00:19:39.620 of 16 soldiers and 10 civilians armed with knives, pistols, and swords. Again, they planned to attack

00:19:46.160 at midnight. Is this like, I don't know why everything is, anyway, whatever. Taylor Swift's

00:19:52.140 new album, her mind, et cetera. So under a bright moon and light drizzle, this group of 16

00:20:00.000 intense events, that's 26 people, approached the palace, subdued the guards, quote unquote,

00:20:06.440 which I think means like stabbed them, then made their way inside the palace towards Believer's

00:20:11.380 bedroom. Here's the thing. Believer had himself been warned several days earlier by an informant.

00:20:18.500 Note, a female informant. He had some lady spies who knew what was going on. So he knew that this

00:20:23.880 was going to happen like this night at midnight, but he didn't take it seriously. Like what? Like

00:20:28.780 they just tried to kill you at the mass ball. Like tensions are running high and he's like,

00:20:33.240 whatever. So he didn't post any extra guards that night. And in fact, I think some of his regular

00:20:38.580 guards were sick. So he just had like a couple guards at the door and that's it. Manuela was

00:20:43.740 there. I don't know if she was there like intentionally because she knew this was going

00:20:46.700 to happen or if she was just like, that's her boo and she's hanging out with him. Anyway,

00:20:51.660 he also had a head cold. Remember he has like tuberculosis as well. So he wanted her to come

00:20:58.060 and take care of him. You know, remember she lived in a separate house. So he was like,

00:21:01.980 i'm sick so she came over so what she was doing was reading him soothing poetry while he was in

00:21:08.920 a warm bath which is just like the most domestic sweet image of people so they had a nice bath

00:21:16.660 poetry reading then they went into bed fell asleep but soon after midnight so again i don't

00:21:23.020 think she knew that or she also maybe he convinced her this wasn't going to happen anyway manuela

00:21:28.620 woke up to dogs barking and the sound of footsteps outside. Bolivar was like, I'm going to run in the

00:21:34.120 hall and fight the intruders myself. And she's like, maybe not. It sounds like there's a lot

00:21:38.160 of them. So she convinced him to not do that. In fact, what she finally convinced him to do

00:21:43.180 was to jump out of the window to outside and to safety, which he did. And then when the assassins

00:21:50.820 burst into the bedroom, they only found her. And she was just like, what? I don't know.

00:21:55.300 like Simone's not here. I don't know where he is. And they were like, well, if he isn't here,

00:22:00.720 then like, why is the bed warm? And why is the window open? And she's like, well, I was just

00:22:04.720 laying the bed myself waiting for him to come back from this like business meeting. And I opened the

00:22:09.120 window because I heard all these dogs barking and wanted to see what was going on. Eventually,

00:22:13.360 she's like, Bolivar, he's in the council room. And they're like, well, where's the council room?

00:22:17.960 And she's like, I'll take you to the council room. She's just like stalling, stalling.

00:22:22.260 and then they went walking through the palace and she's like where's the council room oh i'm a woman

00:22:28.420 i don't remember things la la la and while they were walking she also stopped to attend to one

00:22:34.480 of the guards whose hand had been nearly severed defending the palace so she's just like walking

00:22:39.720 through the corridors with 26 assassins being like i don't know like like around just like

00:22:46.380 bodies of people apparently like the bravery of this woman come on eventually frustrated the 0.89

00:22:52.420 conspirators realized she was stalling and then they beat her with a flat end of their sword so

00:22:57.300 not stabbing her but just like hitting her with swords like really badly like beat her up really

00:23:02.300 badly um apparently she still felt the effects up to 12 days later but eventually finally realizing

00:23:08.820 that their plot had been foiled believer was not in this house uh the attackers fled and then

00:23:14.700 manuela stepped up she ran for a doctor to minister to the guy whose hand had been cut off

00:23:19.060 and then she began checking on everyone else in the house so she was just trying to help

00:23:22.880 all the guards who are around there um the vibes are like in the story of queen margot when there

00:23:29.000 is the big um protestant stabbing the was it st valentine's day massacre and margot just like

00:23:36.280 ran around helping everybody it's that it's that it's like good for her the morning after so like

00:23:42.560 she went, she found Bolívar. He was like in the town square, I think with some guards and he was

00:23:46.540 like shaken. Obviously he's like, all right, maybe I should take these threats seriously.

00:23:50.920 Like, yeah, maybe you should. And apparently after returning back home was the first time

00:23:55.840 that Bolívar turned to her and called her the Libertadora del Liberator. Libertador.

00:24:03.220 So Bolívar was called like the Libertador, the like liberator of, you know, all these countries

00:24:09.140 from Spain. And she was the one who saved him. So ever since then, she is often called the

00:24:15.620 Libertadora. And because she was there and she like talked to these 26 guys, like she was a key

00:24:23.560 part of identifying who they were. So they could like, and who were the guards who like weren't

00:24:28.380 helping or who were helping. So she was able to sort of help find who the, you know, traitors

00:24:35.060 were within their midst comma and in at least two instances so the female family members of some of

00:24:41.880 the attackers went to her to plead their case they're like oh my god like please don't be too

00:24:47.460 hard on him he's our beloved family member and stuff and so manuela actually stood up for them

00:24:53.640 so she in two instances at least uh she lied and said that she hadn't seen those two guys there

00:25:00.420 and the result of that was one of those guys his death sentence was commuted to exile and the other

00:25:05.920 one to imprisonment she also later apparently hid several suspects inside her house so i don't know

00:25:12.600 like this is partly maybe sympathy or just doing a favor for somebody who she hoped would do a favor

00:25:18.260 for her later but apparently she also wanted to learn more from them about the origin of the

00:25:23.120 conspiracy and or how much was Santander involved in it so yeah this like whole situation really got

00:25:31.460 to Bolivar who um became more of like a heart he was already dictator but now he's more like

00:25:36.600 hardline dictator he was just like okay we really need to like get rid of any dissent at all and his

00:25:43.480 new plan even though he was no like lifetime dictator or whatever he started planning to

00:25:48.500 convert the Republic of Gran Colombia into a monarchy with himself as the king.

00:25:56.140 And this is because he really liked, remember when he was younger, he had gone to Europe,

00:26:01.120 like he had traveled around a bit and he was a big fan of like the British system. Like he liked

00:26:06.680 having, you know, king, but then also parliament and then also like a prime minister. Like we see

00:26:13.420 oh, well, that's working now in England right now. But he liked that model of that sort of

00:26:20.320 democracy. What is it? Whatever. I'm not a political science person. I like parliamentary

00:26:25.720 democracy, but with a king. And he's like, and I will make myself the king. I mean, you can assume

00:26:32.100 that the Santanderista is not a fan of this at all. But Manuela was, you know, she's supporting

00:26:41.260 him this is her thing um so she hosted lots of people at her home not just parties but also

00:26:46.360 just visiting so she's keeping herself apprised of what was going on where and with who just like 0.99

00:26:50.920 learning all the all the hot gossip apparently while she hosted people she smoked she also did 1.00

00:26:56.460 cross stitch which were two of her main things she liked to do for like relaxation reasons which 0.98

00:27:03.320 you know she needed things to do for relaxation reasons because like everything was stressful all

00:27:07.760 the time, obviously, but also, well, including the fact that Bolívar's health was getting worse

00:27:14.560 and his political fortunes were also not doing great. His whole plan to like become the king

00:27:21.680 was wildly unpopular. And that was one of the many things that led to protests

00:27:27.160 that wound up kind of breaking Gran Colombia into separate countries of Venezuela, Colombia,

00:27:33.660 Ecuador, Peru, and Bolivia. Things were not doing great politically wise. Also, his health was bad.

00:27:41.500 And so he announced plans to retire and to leave the country, maybe go to Europe. So yeah, Manuela

00:27:48.700 stayed in Bogota. Like she didn't leave with him at this point, but she was just like, he'd been

00:27:53.980 sick as long as she'd known him. And she's just like, he'll get better. But he was kind of worried

00:27:58.480 about like, what's she getting up to while she's there? He wrote her a letter and part of it said,

00:28:02.200 my love while i love you very much i will love you more if now more than ever you show good sense

00:28:07.940 be careful with what you do for otherwise you will lose both of us and that's the whole thing

00:28:13.620 about like no one can control her she can't be tamed etc but like it was a really precarious

00:28:18.960 situation for them both believers enemies began well i'm sure they had already but it just got

00:28:24.300 more um they were denouncing him in the press calling him all kinds of names calling her all

00:28:29.080 kinds of names. I mean, different sorts of names. Like he was more just kind of like

00:28:32.660 ineffectual and she was more like crazy person. Anyway, the Feast of Corpus Christi on June 9th,

00:28:42.940 1830 was being held in Bogota. She hadn't been there, but she was coming back and she learned

00:28:49.020 from her spy network or maybe just from like anyone because the like, this is a pretty major

00:28:52.800 thing being planned. She learned that there are going to be effigies of her and Bolivar

00:28:57.700 were going to be burned in a display arranged by Santander himself.

00:29:02.920 So in kind of like this big, there's going to be like sort of like a castle

00:29:05.700 and then Believer was done up with a crown to show like he's the king.

00:29:09.680 And then she'd be like, I'm like the mistress of the king.

00:29:12.900 So knowing that she was probably coming back to town and then she would be upset,

00:29:16.940 Santander had stationed armed guards around the plaza

00:29:20.300 where these apogees were going to be put and burned.

00:29:22.540 But of course, that didn't stop her.

00:29:23.780 she arrived at the plaza on horseback dressed in her colonel uniform she was accompanied by two of

00:29:30.160 her servants and two bodyguards armed with knives and bayonets and so she tried to get past the 0.72

00:29:35.060 guards by charging at them she ordered her servants and bodyguards to knock them out of the way

00:29:40.040 she threatened to fire her two pistols eventually the whole thing ended when more of St. Henry's

00:29:45.880 troops arrived who subdued her servants and bodyguards and took them off to prison and so

00:29:49.720 she finally went home as well. And this kind of, I don't know, it feels like this was maybe a setup

00:29:56.460 just to get her there acting crazy so they could like prove like see how crazy she is. So one of

00:30:01.920 the newspapers ran a story characterizing her behavior that night showing that she was unhinged, 0.87

00:30:07.460 scatterbrained, full of insolence and effrontery. She responded and big like vibes of like numerous 0.86

00:30:15.740 people have talked about this season she published her own broadside which was like a newspaper type

00:30:20.480 thing in which she explained she had done nothing criminal or illegal she said she had been 1000

00:30:25.760 times provoked to commit well to act like she did she wrote quote everyone knows i have been

00:30:31.280 insulted calumnated and attacked you may call my hot-headedness a crime you may insult me you may

00:30:37.060 thus satisfy your thirst for vengeance but you have not succeeded in making me despair

00:30:41.300 yeah so her enemies i guess the santandaristas were like give us bolivar's archive because

00:30:48.240 remember she was the archivist the keeper of all the letters and she was like hell no and she was 0.94

00:30:53.480 busy setting the stage for bolivar's comeback rallying local sentiment like one of her servants

00:30:59.740 was seen putting up pro-bolivar flyers and broadsides around town um she evaded arrest for

00:31:06.200 several weeks i guess she was arrested for what she did at these effigies which again really makes

00:31:10.920 to sound like a setup. Eventually, she turned herself in, maybe because there's so many

00:31:14.920 assassinations, rumors being spread about her. She was like, maybe I should leave town. Anyway,

00:31:20.840 she agreed to leave Bogota. Well, she was officially ordered to exile herself from there.

00:31:28.740 And now we're just going to take a break for a word from our sponsors.

00:31:32.780 Did you know that President John Quincy Adams had a pet alligator that he kept in the East

00:31:36.840 room of the White House? Well, he didn't. That's a myth. What's not a myth is the story of Thomas

00:31:42.280 Jefferson's four-horned ram that terrorized the White House lawn, an animal he knew was dangerous

00:31:47.140 but did nothing to stop until it was too late and someone was dead. These are the kinds of stories

00:31:52.140 that Howard Dorey and Jessica Dorey explore on the award-nominated podcast Plotting Through the

00:31:57.080 Presidents. They combine compelling narrative dives with irreverent humor and marital banter,

00:32:01.840 creating a show that listeners say is well-researched, insightful, delightful, and hilarious.

00:32:07.540 They cover the myths, scandals, and rivalries that bring to life the personalities of the

00:32:11.340 early United States. And they go beyond just the presidents, digging into folks like Benjamin Rush

00:32:16.860 and Governor Morris, two fascinating founders, neither of whom should be trusted with sharp

00:32:21.740 objects. Catch up on their first three bingeable seasons now and plot along with Howard and Jess

00:32:26.960 for the fourth season of Plotting Through the Presidents.

00:32:30.720 Insurance is entering a new era.

00:32:33.760 Policyholders expect a fast and flexible experience

00:32:36.500 from the insurers they trust.

00:32:39.040 That's why modern insurers run on Adyen.

00:32:41.680 From effortless premium collections

00:32:43.140 to instant claims payouts,

00:32:45.460 Adyen's single platform automates

00:32:47.100 your entire policy lifecycle.

00:32:49.220 A single platform to reduce churn and claims fraud,

00:32:52.600 drive revenue, stay in control of how your money moves.

00:32:56.040 Adyen. Fintech built for your next move.

00:33:01.540 Hungry now.

00:33:04.780 Now.

00:33:06.940 What about now?

00:33:09.160 Whenever it hits you, wherever you are,

00:33:12.000 grab an O'Henry bar to satisfy your hunger.

00:33:15.440 With its delicious combination of big, crunchy, salty peanuts

00:33:19.500 covered in creamy caramel and chewy fudge with a chocolatey coating.

00:33:23.920 Swing by a gas station and get an O'Henry today.

00:33:27.240 O'Hungry O'Henry.

00:33:30.300 Welcome to the realms of peril and glory.

00:33:35.500 Explore the mechanically magical vistas of Vale,

00:33:39.520 the paranormal mysteries of liminal London,

00:33:43.860 and the cyberpunk chaos of Cyborg.

00:33:48.640 Be awed by our incredible guests

00:33:51.260 from familiar shows like Oxventure and No Rolls Barred.

00:33:56.760 Search realms of peril and glory to find out more.

00:34:02.580 And we're back.

00:34:04.440 And then Bolivar died.

00:34:08.340 So he died on December 17th, 1830 in Santa Marta from his tuberculosis.

00:34:15.940 Manuela was at this point, she's staying in Guaduas, Colombia,

00:34:19.860 which was a place with a warm climate that she might've been staying there because she had

00:34:24.100 rheumatism and she needed, it was December. So like she needed to be somewhere warm.

00:34:28.980 She did not attend his like big public funeral, but so maybe for health reasons, but maybe she

00:34:33.980 just preferred to grieve in private at this point. And from then on, she started smoking cigars

00:34:38.780 regularly. So she moved from, I guess, cigarettes to cigars for, I don't know, made her feel better.

00:34:45.420 so legend has it upon news of his death which took a while to reach her because like it was

00:34:51.960 oldie times allegedly she tried to die by suicide by letting a poisonous snake bite her

00:34:59.460 and she talked to a guy who like saw her snake bite and she was like oh no i just let the snake

00:35:04.400 bite me for a science experiment so like i don't know but directly after simone's death her behavior

00:35:12.020 became more erratic, which concerned those who knew her, which is like considering how erratic

00:35:15.660 her behavior was before is like, it must've been pretty extreme. Several of her friends noted her

00:35:20.600 craziness and refusal to avoid dangers. So a bit of a death wish moment here. And now that Bolivar 0.68

00:35:27.780 was dead and no longer taking care of her expenses, she had come to depend on credit

00:35:32.400 because remember women couldn't have jobs or we're going to talk about this more in detail, 1.00

00:35:38.700 but like wealthy white women couldn't have jobs. Anyway, we're going to talk about that in a bit

00:35:46.420 because her finances become quite an issue. So she's trying to figure out what this,

00:35:53.820 what was this new era for herself? What was this going to be? 0.80

00:35:56.840 Gran Colombia officially ended. Venezuela and Ecuador separated to establish their own separate

00:36:01.840 publics. She returned to Bogota, now living in a rental on the city's outskirts. Santander

00:36:09.420 became the new president of Colombia, which was bad news for her, because pretty quickly

00:36:14.200 he exiled her for being implicated in a conspiracy against him. And she was like, I was totally

00:36:19.380 not involved in that conspiracy against you. But like, I mean, she probably was. So he

00:36:24.720 exiled, well, he said, you are exiled. She, of course, in a way that she does every time 0.90

00:36:29.500 anyone exiles her from anywhere. She refused to leave. She wound up being forcibly removed from

00:36:34.280 her home along with her servants, allegedly, or not allegedly, like according to records.

00:36:39.220 It took a guard of 20 soldiers a whole day to arrest her. One man wrote she had been as brave

00:36:45.040 as Caesar in resisting arrest. She tried to return to Quito, her hometown in Ecuador, but

00:36:51.920 the Ecuadorian president, Vicente Rocafuerte, revoked her passport. He was a real piece of

00:36:58.860 shit. So he would not let her return because partially, quote, it is the women who must 1.00

00:37:05.900 promote the spirit of anarchy in these countries. So he was like, she can't come back here because 1.00

00:37:13.340 she's, well, she was like this notorious revolutionary, but also he was just like, 0.95

00:37:17.880 don't care for women like that. So in her book, Pamela S. Murray says that comments like this

00:37:24.000 constituted more than a simple complaint about the activities of the government's female opponents. 0.99

00:37:28.840 These comments reflected a broader elite male reaction to the seeming breakdown of traditional

00:37:33.420 gender boundaries and above all perceived female encroachment on the public sphere

00:37:37.320 and traditionally male realm of politics and governance. This threatened patriarchy and the 1.00

00:37:42.040 ideal of female gender subordination. As Rebecca Earle has hypothesized, it inspired a certain male 1.00

00:37:48.280 anxiety or uneasiness, a sentiment that may be inferred from early Republican leaders,

00:37:52.980 scant praise of female wartime accomplishments and insistence on portraying women mainly as

00:37:58.440 victims so it also reminds me of um the thing in the fredigan story where it's like she died

00:38:05.380 and brunhilde died and the men left to write the records were like what if we don't let anyone know

00:38:11.900 women did these things because that way women won't want to do these things because we don't

00:38:16.620 want women to do these things so this ecuadorian president vicente like he was like i don't want 0.83

00:38:22.900 her back here because she's a revolutionary but also like she's a revolutionary in the sense of 0.99

00:38:26.700 like literally being involved in a revolution but also like she had been part of this thing like at

00:38:32.400 the beginning when she was like in her late teens early 20s where the women were really helping with

00:38:36.160 revolution and they got this political power and they started getting independence and that was

00:38:42.800 just threatening and scary and so he didn't want someone in his country who would maybe inspire 1.00

00:38:47.360 other women to be like that so vincente rocaforte go fuck yourself so she's like well fuck you then 1.00

00:38:55.540 um and so she went to northern peru living in the small coastal town of payita so this is a this is 1.00

00:39:04.240 where she's going to be for the rest of the story so this is a small town it was prosperous due to

00:39:08.880 the growing new england based whaling industry she made new friends there she fit right in but

00:39:15.900 she longed to return to quito and she wrote to her friends like that she felt lonely while she

00:39:20.960 was there now allegedly haita because the new england-based whaling industry apparently herman

00:39:26.820 melville the writer author of moby dick the famous whale-based book went there so did she meet him

00:39:34.640 maybe there's like a whole movie it's from like the year 2000 and it's about herman melville going

00:39:40.220 to Paita and meeting her and then her like sharing her story which is like fine but um if she didn't

00:39:46.560 meet Herman Melville then this is something that I really need to consider for the vulgar history

00:39:50.420 bingo card because after Lola Montez met George Sand it's just kind of like an unexpected author

00:39:55.680 cameo in these stories anyway so she's in northern Peru and she remained involved like at a distance

00:40:04.300 like she kept up to date with what was happening in politics but you know she was involved like

00:40:08.860 she was sort of like, not a kingmaker, but like a person who could just like connect people to

00:40:13.280 other people who might be able to help with various like political things going on. So

00:40:19.780 Paieta seems like it was a place where a lot of people who were in exile from other places kind

00:40:23.260 of landed. So there's other people there also from Ecuador. And she felt a sense of national pride

00:40:29.200 in her in that country. Apparently, she was having a conversation one day with a Peruvian man

00:40:35.520 who said something xenophobic about Ecuadorians referring to the country as a poor place lacking

00:40:40.600 in leaders. Manuela apparently told the crazy imbecile what he deserved to hear. So like 1.00

00:40:46.040 imagine what that might have been. She had a good reputation among the people in Paita because again

00:40:52.300 like as she had shown in several other instances like she really cared for other people especially

00:40:58.860 like people who are suffering. Like when she helped out the soldiers when she's helping the

00:41:03.960 people in the wake of that assassination attempt. So this was a place full of people who just really

00:41:08.500 needed help. And so there's exiles. So she tended to people when they fell ill. She used her

00:41:14.300 political connections to perform special favors. She really cared about people. And then at some

00:41:20.660 point in this era, she suffered a leg or a hip injury. One thing I read described it as maybe

00:41:26.720 a dislocated hip from falling down the stairs in her home, which meant that she basically lost

00:41:33.020 use of her legs. So she would spend most of her day, she had a hammock set up to, because that

00:41:39.100 was like, she would go from bed to hammock. When she had visitors, some people wrote about her

00:41:44.940 laying on the sofa. She had a large leather wheelchair she would use for, well, she was like

00:41:49.440 greeting visitors. So she just became disabled at this point. And she still was broke, had to make

00:41:56.620 a living somehow. So this is what I said I was going to talk about. So women were barred from

00:42:01.920 most occupations and skilled trades. So like all women were barred from most occupations and white 0.95

00:42:09.760 or upper-class women faced further restrictions compared to darker-skinned working-class women 0.83

00:42:14.700 because white women were expected to stay at home and limit their contact with these supposedly 1.00

00:42:19.880 corrupting influences of the outside world. So like both are shitty situations. I'm not going 0.99

00:42:28.100 to say one is shittier than the other, but we've got darker skinned women who were able to get 1.00

00:42:32.520 jobs. And then we have upper class women who is like, oh, no, you're too important to get jobs. 1.00

00:42:37.740 You can't have jobs. Actually, no, I think anyway, so that's what's going on. Like we've 1.00

00:42:43.440 talked before, but there's this kind of like very skin color based caste system going on. 1.00

00:42:48.640 But anyway, what this meant for Manuela is that she like could not get a job. Well, firstly,

00:42:52.920 she like did not have the use of her legs. But secondly, like she was not allowed to work. So

00:42:59.160 yeah, this was, this was, well, this is the thing, right? It's like how, um, in other stories where

00:43:04.480 like women weren't people, like their men controlled their money, like happened with 0.99

00:43:08.340 Hortense Mancini. So it's like, yeah, this is a system where she couldn't work, but that's because 1.00

00:43:13.040 it was a system based on the assumption that she was going to be cared for by a husband and she

00:43:18.120 had like abandoned her husband decades ago. So it's kind of like the system working like it was

00:43:23.420 intended to, which is discouraging women from leaving their husbands. She had, there's a lot

00:43:29.640 of financial stuff. I'm not going to get into all the nitty gritty, but she had some inheritance,

00:43:34.060 remember from her mother, the Aitz Peru family. And then also she, from them, I think she,

00:43:39.760 from her father's family, she had inherited a house and a retail store in Quito. But

00:43:46.140 because she was so far away and because she couldn't return to Quito, like the people who

00:43:50.740 had those were like not paying her the money they should be. So she just, other people owed her a lot

00:43:57.440 of money that they were not paying her. She suspected her financial administrator of malfeasance,

00:44:03.280 which seemed like she was correct in suspecting that. Like she, there was some money she should

00:44:08.840 have been getting, but it was not being sent to her. And then her husband, remember her husband,

00:44:14.540 James Thorne from England, was murdered in 1847. He was ambushed and stabbed to death by unknown

00:44:22.420 assailants after strolling the grounds of his hacienda while in the company of his mistress,

00:44:27.140 who was also killed. This was part of like a crime wave that was going on in that area

00:44:32.100 at that time. So by now, Manuela and James Thorne, they had been pen pals for a while,

00:44:39.500 like they were now friendly. So she was upset because this like was her friend. She yearned

00:44:45.120 for justice and revenge. She dressed as a widow, like she dressed in black, I guess with a veil 1.00

00:44:50.460 and stuff at this time. And so this is another financial based thing. So legally, widows would

00:44:57.640 inherit their husband's estate unless they had violated their personal moral obligations of 0.92

00:45:04.620 being a wife. Like, um, for instance, abandoning her home, leaving her husband, taking a lover, 0.52

00:45:11.800 all of which she had done. So the only money that she technically maybe could inherit for him was

00:45:18.140 the 8,000 peso dowry given to him by her father, but he didn't have that money on hand. So again,

00:45:23.500 it was a debt that was owed to her. So do you remember way back at the beginning of her story,

00:45:29.460 Like when she got the sash for being the, um, when she was allowed to join the order

00:45:34.720 of the sun, where it was like, you know, men who did, who were war heroes got a pension

00:45:39.800 and a job and stuff.

00:45:40.800 And she got like a sash.

00:45:42.740 So between that and the work that she had done working with Bolivar, like a man in the

00:45:48.300 same situation would have some sort of pension.

00:45:50.320 She was this like great war hero, but she was a woman. 0.98

00:45:54.440 So she didn't get a pension from that.

00:45:56.080 she was not getting the inheritance that she maybe should have been getting from

00:46:01.840 her mother's estate or also from her dead husband's estate. She was disabled and living

00:46:08.260 in poverty. So in this era, she wrote in one letter that she was in more misery than she

00:46:13.340 had ever imagined she would be. She voiced some suicidal thoughts at this time. And she just like

00:46:20.180 had to hustle and figure out what she was going to do. So she started doing some jobs, like

00:46:26.360 on the side, she started, remember, she grew up in the convent. So she was really, really good

00:46:31.400 at stitching, like embroidery. And that was one of her hobbies as well. So she started selling

00:46:36.600 embroidered handkerchiefs and garments. She worked in these with her female servants, 1.00

00:46:40.960 putting the skills she'd learned growing up in the convent to use. So she was kind of

00:46:44.620 making and selling some crafts because people liked the ecuadorian embroidery style and remember

00:46:50.740 there's people in paeta from ecuador as well so maybe you know it reminded them home she also

00:46:56.920 made some money by doing some freelance work for the american consul in peru who was a guy who was

00:47:03.460 a wealthy merchant we're not sure what work she did but probably because she was fluent in english

00:47:09.340 she probably served as an interpreter or translator because he was the american consul 0.98

00:47:13.740 and like they were in Peru and she could like translate English to Spanish. So translating,

00:47:18.360 but maybe also serving as a mediator. Like we just know he paid her sometimes occasionally for

00:47:22.240 some work she did for him. This is where perhaps she might've met Herman Melville. Um, but still

00:47:27.700 she was barely able to support herself. Her lawyer who had reason to exaggerate because he's the one

00:47:33.480 who's trying to demand her debtors pay her, but there's some truth in this. So she's described by

00:47:38.220 her lawyer as living in a pitiful hut, submerged in the worst kind of misery without any sort of

00:47:42.740 income on which to subsist depended for her daily bread on the charity of various friends and

00:47:47.680 various friends confirmed that like she yeah they were helping pay for her like she did make friends

00:47:53.880 um she still had some powerful friends like she because she was charming and smart and interesting

00:47:58.720 and funny i'm sure still doing some pranks of some kind so like the kindness of strangers people are

00:48:05.300 helping her and maybe that's sort of like i don't know the way that she had helped that she did help

00:48:11.720 other people who are struggling, you know, it kind of like people knew she was this kind-hearted,

00:48:15.680 good person and they helped her as well. She was not the only widow quote, like she was technically

00:48:21.020 a widow, even though she had not, she had left her husband, but widows were affected profoundly

00:48:27.140 in a lot of places all over South America at this point, because there'd been like between the

00:48:32.320 revolution, all the civil wars, like, um, firstly, a lot of men had died in these battles, leaving a

00:48:38.400 lot of widows. But then also because of the various wars like that affected trade and things.

00:48:44.320 And a lot of these places had a trade based economy. They weren't able to do that, especially

00:48:48.260 Peru. So even like the wealthy people who are still there, there's like an economic depression

00:48:54.740 going on, basically just like people didn't have money, even like wealthy people, like there just

00:48:58.600 was not money. So there's she was living in poverty as were to a lot of people. But I wouldn't

00:49:05.480 say luck, but like her resiliency and her hard work and just like connecting people with each

00:49:10.980 other, which she'd always been good at. She connected with a better lawyer who after years

00:49:15.960 of fighting, he was able to get her finally part of her inheritance from her husband, as well as

00:49:21.920 from her mother's estate. So she started being able to like get money from Quito. By the 1850s,

00:49:28.340 she was able to expand her hand-stitched business, selling Ecuadorian handcrafts. And she set up a

00:49:34.120 way to get materials sent regularly from Quito, you know, like shawls and things for her to

00:49:38.300 embroider so she could sell. So her little small business was growing. She also grew closer to

00:49:43.600 members of wealthy and aristocratic families, as well as up and coming political figures. So she

00:49:48.580 was like back in her lane, like she was moving and shaking among important people. She hosted a lot

00:49:52.980 of gatherings, parties, like she always had, connecting people to other people. Presumably

00:49:59.520 her house is not the hut described at one point. But as this was all happening, like her health

00:50:04.980 was also becoming more fragile. So because of the hip injury, like this whole time, if you're like,

00:50:12.000 how was she like, if she has no money, like how is she doing anything? So she depended on a servant 0.99

00:50:18.920 whose name was Juana Rosa, who was formerly enslaved, now a paid servant, who had followed 0.99

00:50:25.440 Manuela into exile. And they were very, very close friends. Manuela regarded Juana Rosa as a close

00:50:31.860 friend or a cherished relative. So Juana Rosa was the one who helped her, you know, moving her from 0.62

00:50:37.240 the bed to the hammock, to the wheelchair, like just taking care of her and stuff. And I'm glad

00:50:42.980 that when Manuela got money, she'd be able to pay Juana Rosa again. And then, toward the end of 1858,

00:50:50.700 a diphtheria epidemic struck Paieta.

00:50:55.620 Apparently it was brought over by people from England.

00:50:59.960 So anyway, she contracted this.

00:51:02.900 So did Juana Rosa.

00:51:05.240 Juana Rosa died on November 21st

00:51:09.220 and then Manuela Sainz died November 23rd,

00:51:13.940 two days after her servant.

00:51:16.220 November 23rd, 1858, she died aged 59.

00:51:20.700 So because of the epidemic, all the like, because of what people knew or understood about how epidemic spread, just like the people who had it, like all their belongings are burned. Thank God. Before this, she had transferred all the believer archives, all the letters to someone else. So that's why the letters survived and they weren't burnt or lost.

00:51:44.820 Manuela herself was buried in a mass grave, probably, along with others who had died in

00:51:49.760 the epidemic. Somewhere on the outskirts of Paita, her exact resting place remains uncertain,

00:51:55.440 even though in the 1980s, like there's a real concerted effort to try and find like where

00:51:59.640 are her actual bones buried? No one knows. But her story was told and is still remembered to

00:52:08.640 the point that in spanish america she now has this kind of mythic iconic status so like stories

00:52:18.000 of her were spread and were shared but the myth kind of it became more widespread like at first

00:52:24.680 it's just like oh yeah simon believer he had a girlfriend her name was manuela science she's

00:52:28.380 crazy whatever she wore pants was she a lesbian whatever but so in 1944 a novel by alfonso ramazzo

00:52:36.960 was published called manuela science la liberatora del liberator and unlike earlier writings which 0.65

00:52:42.300 mostly brush her off as like bolivar's crazy girlfriend this book fleshed out her story to

00:52:46.840 show her as a real person and examined her importance to the revolution so this book

00:52:53.580 like was kind of a bit of a turning point but also like it reflects societally like they were

00:52:58.920 looking for heroines like this. In the 1980s, an Ecuadorian author slash activist named Nila

00:53:07.720 Martinez called for a fresh, more balanced look at Manuela, asking that historians recognize her 0.56

00:53:14.380 rightful place in history and admit she'd been more than just a famous mistress. So this woman,

00:53:18.920 Nila Martinez, organized an event in September 1989 to highlight Manuela, kind of a conference,

00:53:25.480 and brought together 40 women from Ecuador, Peru, and Cuba to, they met in Paita to honor

00:53:30.900 Manuela's memory. Uh, they visited her, like what was probably her house mate in the, her maybe

00:53:36.500 burial place. And they just like gave talks and spoke about how important she was and how we

00:53:40.080 should all, um, respect her more. She has emerged, Manuela signs as a feminist role model, as well

00:53:47.300 as a source of inspiration and a rallying point for civic and social activists, as well as the

00:53:52.600 beloved heroine of Ecuador. In 1998, during a protest in Quito, female protesters rode on

00:54:01.620 horseback to the Plaza de Independencia dressed as Manuela. And in 2007, the Ecuadorian government

00:54:08.760 symbolically promoted Manuela Sainz to the rank of general of the army. So just to put this all

00:54:15.100 in context, like looking at her legacy. So this is from an interview I read with Pamela S. Murray,

00:54:19.820 the author of the biography that i mostly base this podcast on so she says in all these rebellions

00:54:26.900 against the spanish you see women playing very active roles on both sides they were spies they 1.00

00:54:31.320 followed armies and treated soldiers wounds and cooked their meals for them upper class women 0.96

00:54:35.420 were among the main conspirators against the spanish regime they helped hatch the first 1.00

00:54:39.160 rebellions in their homes they disseminated information they were couriers and arms traffickers 0.87

00:54:43.360 it's not surprising that someone like manuela would appear in this context in which women were

00:54:48.120 so active, it just so happened that she became involved, most politically, with the most famous

00:54:52.440 leader of the independence movement in South America. That's why she's gotten as much attention

00:54:56.580 as she's gotten, but behind her were a lot of other women. After the revolution, Manuela effectively 1.00

00:55:02.240 faded from literature. Between 1860 and 1940, only three Ecuadorian writers wrote about her

00:55:07.720 and her participation in the revolution, and these writers largely portrayed her as either

00:55:11.840 exclusively the lover of Simón Bolívar, or as incapable and wrongfully participating within

00:55:17.080 the political sphere. I'm still quoting from Pamela S. Murray, just so you know. Quote.

00:55:23.080 So with Manuela Simes, there's also this mythology that grew up around her. She's this eccentric 0.76

00:55:27.640 woman. She's called a slut, basically. There's a sort of black and white image of her. Whether 1.00

00:55:31.920 you praised her or you criticized her, you were not really looking at the real person.

00:55:35.900 And this is Pamela, again. That's what I was trying to do in her book, to get at who she

00:55:40.500 actually was as a person and cut through some of that mythology and the sensationalism.

00:55:44.360 Manuela's impact on the independent movement is greatly underestimated today as she is remembered

00:55:49.960 mostly as Bolívar's lover. In fact, she actively participated in the planning and funding of a good

00:55:55.260 deal of rebel activity. She fought at Pichincha, Junín, and Ayacucho and was recognized by Sucre

00:56:02.120 himself as an important part of his victories. She often dressed in the uniform of a cavalry

00:56:06.580 officer complete with a saber. An excellent rider, her promotions were not merely for show.

00:56:10.860 Finally, her effect on Bolívar himself should not be underestimated. Many of his greatest

00:56:15.540 moments came in the eight years they were together. End quote. So today in Quito, many places such as

00:56:22.420 schools, streets, and businesses bear her name. Her history is required reading for school children.

00:56:28.660 There's a museum, Manuela Sáenz, in Old Town Quito that contains personal effects from both

00:56:33.860 Sáenz and Bolívar to safeguard the memories of Manuela Sáenz, Quito's illustrious daughter.

00:56:38.540 I love this detail. Entrance to the museum is free with a purchase of one of the books about

00:56:43.120 her life. Things inside the museum include letters, stamps, and paintings. And then in July 2010,

00:56:52.100 Manuela Sainz was given a full state burial in Venezuela. Why Venezuela, you might ask? Because

00:56:57.620 that's why Simone Bolivar is buried. So because she had been buried in a mass grave, no official

00:57:02.820 remains of her existed for the state burial. Instead, symbolic remains composed of some soil

00:57:07.520 from the mass grave into which she was buried during the epidemic, were transported through

00:57:11.620 Peru, Ecuador, and Colombia to Venezuela. So these remains were laid in the national

00:57:16.560 pantheon of Venezuela, where those of Bolivar are also memorialized.

00:57:22.880 So I'm going to read to you now some thoughts from Andrea, a Tizod Brigade member from Ecuador,

00:57:30.160 who really, who explains her understanding and how people in Ecuador see Manuela today. So she says,

00:57:37.520 we know her as manuelita for the affection one of the biggest heroes from the revolution

00:57:42.860 every kid does the revolution at the school play and manuelita is always the main character

00:57:47.120 she was an active member during the revolution sometimes disguising herself as a man and

00:57:51.220 fighting in the war she came from a family with money so she used it for good planning and hosting

00:57:55.520 the meetings where the revolution was planned iconic that's how i would describe her an iconic

00:58:00.220 woman she died terribly after simone's death she was exiled and got sick so many of her belongings

00:58:06.200 were burned and she died as a homeless person in poverty. Here in Ecuador, we have a museum named

00:58:10.820 after her with little belongings we have left by combs, letters, and some furniture. Personally,

00:58:15.460 I love her. She makes all women feel empowered. For me, she is the face of Ecuadorian history.

00:58:21.620 So we're going to score Manuela, as we always do for everybody on this podcast. And I'm going to,

00:58:27.780 I also asked Andrea for her opinion on scoring, and I'm going to default to her in a lot of cases

00:58:33.880 Because for things like context significance, like I don't have the lived experience to understand her importance.

00:58:40.540 But I think what I just read, like, Manila Sainz is such a heroine to the people of Ecuador.

00:58:47.000 So, oh, and first there's the Lady Jane Seymour Memorial Award for Outstanding Supporting Performance.

00:58:52.300 I do not, I did not learn enough about any of her friends.

00:58:56.340 Like maybe Juana Rosa was there for her.

00:59:00.660 She clearly was.

00:59:01.920 Simone Believer, not getting this award.

00:59:03.880 I would say for all of Manuela's, everything she did for him, he was not the best boyfriend to her.

00:59:11.600 So the first category is scandalousness. And this is like, we're not comparing her

00:59:17.740 scandalousness to that of other people in the podcast, but more so to like other women living

00:59:23.400 at the same time she did. Like how did society that she lived in see Manuela, like, which was 0.57

00:59:30.300 incredibly scandalous. Like her, um, she moved, there was that first part where she's like moved

00:59:36.160 to, um, when she's living in Lima and like the women there had a bit more freedom, they could

00:59:40.520 walk around. But even within that, like she was hosting revolutionaries at her house. The fact 0.99

00:59:47.640 that she like left her husband to, uh, to be with Simone Bolivar, but the fact that initially Simone

00:59:54.900 like couldn't even sort of publicly say that that was his mistress because that was so scandalous.

00:59:58.760 the things she did like um fighting in the battles like the stuff like showing up to like 0.90

01:00:06.080 try to attack the effigy or you know throwing the effigy based party like the stuff that she did in

01:00:11.920 her life I feel like was very scandalous like while there was a certain context in which she

01:00:16.000 was able to do it which we'll get to that in the sexism bonus like she was in a society where like 0.82

01:00:20.020 women could do some of this stuff it was not normal it was not okay to like society like her 0.96

01:00:26.860 remember her family her father's family like went back to spain because they were just like 0.99

01:00:30.420 i don't like this and she was like leaning into all of it so for scandalousness um andrea says

01:00:37.220 many of her life accomplishments are lowered to her affair with simone believer the main leader

01:00:41.120 of the revolution both were married and had an affair that everybody knew about her husband

01:00:45.260 was not happy she suggests for scandalousness a 10 i think i'm gonna go with just in terms of like

01:00:55.840 living as a woman in this era where like later the fact that the guy from Ecuador was just like,

01:01:01.960 you can't come here. Women shouldn't do stuff. Like her entire life was incredibly scandalous. 1.00

01:01:05.840 And therefore I'm going to give her a well-deserved 10. The next category is scheminess. And this is

01:01:13.140 like intelligence, smartness, resiliency. Like when you're faced with a problem, like what do

01:01:17.620 you do about it? And I think she did incredible with this. Like I think to do as well as she did

01:01:22.560 in in the revolution like being with the army like having her spy network like also like frankly 1.00

01:01:28.920 saving simone believer twice the thing where she was just like in terms of scheminess like showing 1.00

01:01:35.460 up and acting like an insane drunk person to get him out of the party so he wasn't assassinated 1.00

01:01:39.420 like genius andrea says to move all the men she did in a country in time where women had no power 1.00

01:01:46.360 that lady was smart. She suggests the 10 and I frankly concur because yeah, like her scheme, 1.00

01:01:52.540 like this revolution, like the way that she got people on Simone Believer's side was like unreal,

01:01:59.420 how persuasive she was, like, which requires so much smartness, being so calculating and

01:02:04.880 clever and using parties to get people on your side. Like, I think she was incredibly smart,

01:02:10.400 incredibly schemey. Significance. I'm fully just turning to Andrea for this. So she says,

01:02:16.840 I don't think the revolution would have happened without her help, not just the economical support,

01:02:21.080 but the ideas and inspiration that were needed. And that's where she's saying also how she's so

01:02:26.600 significant. There's the museum, there's the, you know, every kid does the revolution at school,

01:02:31.220 there's a play, like she's so, so, so significant. Something I read was saying that she's like maybe

01:02:36.460 the most significant revolutionary figure in South American history. I think her significance

01:02:43.240 is for sure a 10. Like even just the fact that she, all of her involvement with the revolution,

01:02:48.600 like led to, like the revolution itself led to all these countries emancipating themselves from

01:02:54.460 Spain. And it would not have been anywhere near as successful without her, without all the stuff

01:02:59.540 that she did. Like she was right up there in importance, but also frankly, the fact that she

01:03:06.060 like saved simone believer's life twice like literally like and quite significant to history

01:03:13.520 as well the final category is the sexism bonus so this is where well like andrea says like this was 0.59

01:03:20.880 a an era where like women were a country at a time where women had no power and truly they didn't like

01:03:26.660 i talked about some of the things that were like better there than in some other like eras we've

01:03:31.060 talked about. In Lima, women could walk on the street by themselves. Women were encouraged to

01:03:37.300 join the revolution and stuff when she was a young woman, but that's within the revolution.

01:03:42.600 That's not the society at large. And once the revolution was over, it was very much just kind

01:03:46.920 of like, okay, women can go away again, like the president of Ecuador said. So she was up against

01:03:52.040 a lot of sexism, for sure. The fact that she didn't get a pension when men who did less than

01:03:59.080 she did would have gotten like a lifetime pension. She didn't get a job. She couldn't

01:04:02.340 have a job. So for sure, sexism did hold her back in those ways, comma. And at the same 1.00

01:04:09.280 time, if we're looking at in the pantheon of cultures and societies we've talked about

01:04:15.060 on this podcast, like she was able to join the revolution. She was able to join like

01:04:21.300 Simone Bolivar, as much as I'm not giving him the award, like he gave her a job, like

01:04:27.120 he made her the archivist like she was she started her like homemade goods business like not to say

01:04:34.020 that that's like amazing time to be a woman but it's like she in another story in another era 0.95

01:04:40.320 like with different people around her maybe she wouldn't have been able to be as involved in the

01:04:44.860 revolution as she was like if simone hadn't welcomed her help if the other people in the 1.00

01:04:49.960 evolution hadn't been so the sexism is undoubtedly there um and fucked up her life for sure and she 0.99

01:04:58.160 was able to do like a hell of a lot of stuff and to become really significant so the sexism didn't

01:05:02.340 get in her way to a 10 level i'm gonna give her for sexism i don't know this is controversial

01:05:11.620 i'm gonna give her a 7 a 7 for sexism because it was for sure there you know like if a 10 would be 1.00

01:05:19.160 like she was trapped in the nunnery and not allowed to leave. Like she found a way to make 1.00

01:05:22.860 her way in the world, but face love sexism still at the same point. So that adds up to

01:05:28.220 a grand total of 37, which is the third highest score ever. So to recap, and I have to say the

01:05:41.140 international women are making up almost all the top 10 at this point. So in terms of scores,

01:05:46.160 Fredegand has a 38 on the Fredegand Memorial Scandalistic Scale. Second place, Queen Margot,

01:05:51.800 37.5. And in third place, Manuela Sanz, 37. Just, just below her. And Jenga and Harem Sultan,

01:06:01.020 both with a 36. The Chevalier, Dayan, 35.5. Malenzine, 35.5. Queen Min, 35.5. And then

01:06:08.780 Christine of Sweden with a 33.5. Yeah. So that's, that's the top of things right now on the

01:06:15.460 scandal to scale. And there's more episodes to come. I keep like, suspensively making you think

01:06:24.480 like this season is going to come to an end soon. And it will but like, not right away, we've still

01:06:29.760 got at least three more people to talk about. How many episodes will each of those be? I won't know

01:06:35.100 till I start recording it. So in the meantime, so I am still always, always, always looking for

01:06:42.400 suggestions of people to talk about on the podcast. And you can contact me with those ideas.

01:06:46.400 If you go to vulgarhistory.com, there's a form there where you can contact me with your

01:06:50.760 suggestions. You can also email me right, like directly, just email me at vulgarhistorypod

01:06:55.560 at gmail.com. Also, you can keep in touch with me. I'm most active on Instagram where I'm at

01:07:03.320 vulgarhistorypod. If you check the stories there, after every episode, I always have like

01:07:06.880 polls and sharing pictures and stuff. Anyway, I'm also on Twitter at vulgarhistory.

01:07:12.400 and well, I'm on TikTok at Vulgar History. Have I done much there? Frankly, no. Do I understand it?

01:07:20.120 Not really. I am an aged crone, but I do. I'm excited to learn more about it probably during

01:07:27.660 my upcoming hiatus. But in the meantime, if you're on TikTok, you should follow me at Vulgar History,

01:07:33.020 even though I don't post anything, because then I can follow you back and then I can see what

01:07:36.600 you're doing. And maybe they'll give me ideas of things I could do. Or frankly, send me messages

01:07:40.440 and tell me things you think I could do in TikTok. Like, I know the people are there.

01:07:43.800 Like, I'm happy to engage with people wherever the listeners are. I want to be there with you.

01:07:48.280 Like, you know, sharing jokes, fun facts. Anyway, so just like tag me on Vulgar History

01:07:53.560 on TikTok. Let me know what's going on. Also, Vulgar History, we have our merch store.

01:08:00.360 If you go to vulgarhistory.store and you can shop all the various things we have there. By the time

01:08:06.540 this episode comes out, I think there will be the Lola Montez world tour. It's kind of like a band

01:08:11.800 tour t-shirt, but it's Lola Montez, the spider dance tour. Anyway, vulgarhistory.store. Remember

01:08:18.620 when you're shopping there, you can use tits out for free US shipping or tits out 10 for 10%

01:08:22.320 off. The store is being, there's like some stuff going on with the domain of the store. So if you

01:08:26.940 go to vulgarhistory.store and it's not working, what you can do instead is go to, well, first

01:08:34.680 of all, you can just go to, there's like a link and my Instagram page that goes to the store that

01:08:40.100 should always be working. And then also in like a roundabout way, you can go to vulgarhistory.creator-spring.com,

01:08:51.700 which is like a mouthful. And hopefully by the time this posts, vulgarhistory.store is going to

01:08:55.500 be working again. But anyway, if you're like desperate to get your merch, you can, yeah,

01:09:01.040 find the link through Instagram. Anyway, thank you all for being best listeners in the podcast

01:09:07.800 land. Oh, and then also the other important thing is too, everyone says this, but I really

01:09:14.900 appreciate if you could rate the podcast, review the podcast, especially if you're listening on

01:09:20.480 Apple podcasts, because again, I think I said last time, I got a review from somebody who gave me

01:09:25.600 like the large amount of stars, which I appreciate, but they said that I say the word like too much.

01:09:30.280 And so if you think I say the word like just enough, or maybe not enough, like you could

01:09:35.920 leave a comment there just to balance out that other comment.

01:09:39.400 Anyway, thank you all for listening to this podcast.

01:09:42.520 We'll be back next week with another story of another perhaps less known women from world

01:09:48.320 history, comma, international style.

01:09:52.920 Actually, I'm thinking, yeah, no, there's, of course, that's what is coming up on this

01:09:58.160 podcast.

01:09:58.480 but I've also got some author interviews coming up

01:10:00.400 and I think that might be what you hear next.

01:10:02.020 So stay tuned for that. 1.00

01:10:04.200 And until next time, keep your pants on and your tits out. 0.99

01:10:10.300 Folk of History is hosted, written, and researched by Anne Foster 0.99

01:10:13.560 and edited by Christina Mimani.

01:10:23.700 Insurance is entering a new era.

01:10:25.840 policyholders expect a fast and flexible experience from the insurers they trust

01:10:30.860 that's why modern insurers run on adian from effortless premium collections to instant claims

01:10:37.180 payouts adian's single platform automates your entire policy life cycle a single platform to

01:10:43.060 reduce churn and claims fraud drive revenue stay in control of how your money moves adian

01:10:49.220 Fintech built for your next move.

01:10:53.860 Legendary stories, awe-inspiring sound, and endless adventure.

01:11:00.380 Welcome to the realms of peril and glory.

01:11:06.160 Explore the mechanically magical vistas of Vale,

01:11:10.820 the paranormal mysteries of liminal London,

01:11:14.880 and the cyberpunk chaos.

01:11:19.220 of cyborg fall in love with our core cast or be awed by our incredible guests from familiar shows

01:11:30.520 like oxventure three black halflings and no roles bard ignite your imagination and discover the

01:11:40.180 realms of peril and glory today go to realmspod.com or search realms of peril and glory wherever you

01:11:47.940 listen to podcasts.

01:11:49.440 Two, one, you win!

01:11:53.300 The war is over

01:11:55.580 and both sides lost.

01:11:57.700 Kingdoms were reduced to cinders

01:11:59.560 and armies scattered like

01:12:01.520 bones in the dust. Now

01:12:03.400 the survivors claw to what's

01:12:05.620 left of a broken world, praying

01:12:07.860 the darkness chooses someone

01:12:09.520 else tonight. But in the shadow

01:12:11.380 dark, the darkness always

01:12:13.860 wins. This is

01:12:15.360 old school adventuring at its

01:12:17.340 most cruel. Your torch ticks

01:12:19.460 down in real time, and when that flame

01:12:21.580 dies, something else rises to

01:12:23.480 finish the job. This is a brutal

01:12:25.260 rules-light nightmare with a story

01:12:27.400 that emerges organically

01:12:29.240 based on the decisions that the characters

01:12:31.460 make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs

01:12:33.620 in the 80s, and man, it is

01:12:35.420 so good to be back! Join the Glass Cannon

01:12:37.460 podcast as we plunge into the Shadow Dark

01:12:39.600 every Thursday night at 8pm

01:12:41.340 Eastern on youtube.com slash

01:12:43.240 theglasscannon with the podcast version

01:12:45.540 dropping the next day.

01:12:47.340 See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark.

Vulgar History - November 02, 2022

International, part 33： Manuela Sáenz： Post-Revolution (pt 2⧸2)

Episode Stats

Transcript