Vulgar History - International, part 36： Ancient Iranian Warrior Queen Artemisia I of Caria

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00:00:45.000 Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast.

00:00:49.260 My name is Anne Foster and this is the international season. Still, continuing,

00:00:54.260 It's a continuing adventures of Tits aux Sons Frontières, Bulgar History Internationale.

00:00:59.560 And thus far, this season, more or less, I've been doing the stories in chronological order.

00:01:06.560 And that's kind of why we got stuck in like 1600s Europe for a while,

00:01:11.740 because I kept finding people who were friends with other people in that era.

00:01:15.720 Anyway, we've been in the 19th century, solidly here for a while,

00:01:20.880 and we are going to get back to that.

00:01:22.480 but today we're going to pop back and back like way back. Like this is the oldest person I've ever

00:01:29.080 researched for this podcast or for anything. And why are we going all the way back? It's because

00:01:35.220 so I mentioned a couple of weeks ago towards the end of the episode. I don't know before that

00:01:40.520 episode yet. Maybe this is your first episode. Welcome. But I wanted to mention in that episode

00:01:45.380 about what's going on these days in Iran. And that got me looking at the history of Iran and

00:01:53.520 wondering if there's someone that we could talk about from that region. Actually, I mean, pause.

00:01:59.180 If you haven't heard what I said in the other episode, I just wanted to, again, acknowledge

00:02:03.540 the incredible bravery of the people of Iran, who since September 17th, people have been demonstrating

00:02:09.420 there throughout Iran following the death of 22-year-old Masa Amini. Masa was arrested by

00:02:16.200 Iran's morality police, allegedly for not wearing her hijab properly. Three days after her arrest,

00:02:22.300 Masa died in the hospital after falling into a coma. Police denied mistreating her and claimed

00:02:27.180 she died of a heart attack. Protesters with young people, especially young women, and including

00:02:32.020 schoolgirls, are demanding an end to conservative laws, including the ones around dress codes,

00:02:36.960 and those were all put in place in 1979. So there are members of the Titsad Brigade. There

00:02:44.160 are Vulgar History listeners in Iran. I am messaging with one of them. And so I really

00:02:50.340 want to let her and let everybody there know that we or I am thinking of them because this is a

00:02:56.720 feminist revolution. And I am putting some links in the show notes of organizations. If you want

00:03:04.800 to help financially to support what's going on there, but you can also support what's

00:03:09.500 going on there by paying attention, sharing information about the revolution, joining

00:03:13.320 protests near you, organizing one if there's not one near you, and donating to Iran-focused

00:03:18.740 human rights organizations.

00:03:21.120 Anyway, I've been reading more about Iran to understand that part of the world and what's 0.84

00:03:26.280 going on, and so I went back through my messages of suggestions, and I'm never going to stop 0.97

00:03:31.160 wanting to hear from you, Tits Out Brigade, for suggestions of people from your country or from

00:03:35.820 your background who you think would be good to talk about on this podcast. But I just searched

00:03:39.600 to see like, I'm pretty sure someone has mentioned someone from Iran. And in fact, someone had. So

00:03:44.980 Tits Out Brigade member Layla, who is in the US, but her family is from Iran. And Layla suggests,

00:03:53.080 what did she say um so this person artemisia of caria so artemisia as layla says she's technically

00:04:01.460 greek but she did have a love affair with king xerxes of persia so this is we'll talk about that

00:04:07.960 did she maybe but um she for sure lived in that part of the world a very very very long time ago

00:04:15.760 and again i can't emphasize how how long ago this all happened so the modern day country of iran

00:04:22.160 let's just like start there where is this country located if you look on a map of if you know kind

00:04:28.980 of like between Asia and Africa there's like a big boot shape like I don't mean you know Italy

00:04:35.700 is always called the boot but I always think of this as a boot shape slash like a Tetris shape

00:04:39.600 it's a peninsula and on it it's like Saudi Arabia Yemen Oman United Arab Emirates Kuwait Iraq Syria

00:04:47.340 like these places are all on the boot and then to the right or i guess the east of the boot it's

00:04:54.400 like the landmass that is asia and that's where iran is iran is kind of right in between it's

00:04:59.760 what connects the boot to mainland asia so iran is it's connected to it borders lots of places

00:05:09.040 The support is Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Turkey, and Iraq nowadays.

00:05:16.160 So it does not come as a surprise that this is a place where civilization is in people who decided to start a city or a country or a kingdom, decided to settle in there because it's located handily to a lot of bodies of water.

00:05:32.600 There's good farming there and that sort of thing.

00:05:34.400 So the people who were there, we generally call the Persian Empire.

00:05:40.500 Technically, it was a series of historical empires that ruled over this region and beyond.

00:05:46.380 So the first understanding of like what we call the Persian Empire was formed under King Cyrus the Great.

00:05:54.100 And we're just going to refer to this whole thing as like the Persian Empire.

00:05:58.440 Technically, it has a different name, the Achaemenid, or the, oh God, I listened to

00:06:04.620 pronunciation. Achaemenid dynasty, but we're just going to call it Persian Empire. That's

00:06:09.340 just how it's generally known. Fun fact. So Iran, like the modern day place where the country is,

00:06:16.140 was always kind of the base of operations for this empire. And it is the oldest country in

00:06:22.660 the world when you measure by when it established its own sovereignty. Like when people of a shared

00:06:28.280 ethnic group were like, let's just be here and stay here and make this be our land. And then 0.96

00:06:34.680 those same people, like that ethnic group continues to be one of the groups that lives in that land.

00:06:41.200 So like it was obviously not called Iran at that point, but it was founded sometime,

00:06:46.940 something like 3200 BC. By contrast, that's about 100 years before Egypt, which is the second

00:06:54.600 oldest civilization where people were there, and some of their descendants still live there now.

00:07:00.840 So yeah, ethnically Persian people have lived in this place longer continuously than most other

00:07:07.460 places on earth. I don't mean like, I guess longer than Persian people lived in other places,

00:07:12.820 but longer than anyone has lived in any same place. So it's quite remarkable. So the history

00:07:18.640 is like huge and long and big. And there are still Persian people or people of Persian ancestry

00:07:24.900 living there now that comprises about one third of all the population, because obviously,

00:07:29.260 you know, millennia have passed and there's been immigration and people have invaded and whatever.

00:07:33.340 So there's all different people living there now, including descendants of the original

00:07:36.800 Persian empire. So under Cyrus the Great, and I love the names. There's Cyrus,

00:07:44.400 his son is Darius the Great. Like these are very contemporary sounding names to me

00:07:48.400 in the way of like, and in other episodes, like, I don't know, Fredegund or Aethelflaed. Like that's

00:07:54.180 how I think of like oldie time names just sound sort of unfamiliar and strange to me.

00:07:58.220 But Cyrus and Darius, like, well, those are just names that people would have now. Anyway,

00:08:03.780 so under cyrus the great the first persian empire became one of the largest empires in history

00:08:09.120 stretching from the balkan peninsula in the west to the indus valley in the east so the balkans to

00:08:18.100 india and in this era so this this empire founded by cyrus the great was a global hub of culture

00:08:26.500 religion science art and technology for more than 200 years before it fell to the invading armies

00:08:31.120 of Alexander the Great. I just realized I forgot to say what my sources are. And here's the thing

00:08:37.200 about the one we're talking about, Artemisia of Caria. There's not lots known about her.

00:08:43.040 It's not a fact of like, no one's writing about her. It's like, no, there's like very little

00:08:47.740 known. And so I found the information there is with kind of repeated in several different places.

00:08:53.360 So Wikipedia, Encyclopedia, Britannica, online, history.com. I got some information,

00:08:58.580 worldhistory.org. And then also information from a website or a magazine, Persian-esque

00:09:04.940 magazine. I do also want to mention, if you want to learn more about the history of Persia,

00:09:10.280 there's two podcasts I've played ads for before here that I recommend. There's the Persian History

00:09:15.440 Podcast and also So You Think You Can Rule Persia are both talking about. They're never going to

00:09:21.080 run into stuff to say because it was a place for whatever, 3,200 years. So I'm telling you all this

00:09:28.980 background stuff, similar to like the episode about Queen Mint, where it's just so, I didn't

00:09:34.340 know any of this stuff. And I assume many of you might not know a lot of this stuff. So to really

00:09:38.060 set it in the place and time, but also especially because we know so little about this person,

00:09:42.880 because this all happened incredibly long ago. So Artemisia of Caria, she was active around

00:09:51.140 480 BC. So by contrast, that's like 400 years before Cleopatra, previously the most longest

00:10:01.780 egoist person we've talked about on this podcast. So it's, you know, I'm grateful that we know

00:10:07.280 anything about her, frankly. So let's see. So the Persians were the first people to establish

00:10:16.620 regular routes of communication between three continents, Africa, Asia, and Europe. And that

00:10:20.640 would be because like how I described, like they are between those. So they would be needing to do

00:10:27.260 that as well. They had built many roads and developed the world's first postal service.

00:10:31.940 so um the religion that they practiced i mean nowadays iran and much of persian history you

00:10:42.160 think about the islamic religion but that only became the dominant religion there after the

00:10:46.980 arab conquests of the 7th century and we're looking at like 600 years before that so the

00:10:52.320 first persian empire was shaped by the religion of zoroastrianism so this was named after the

00:10:57.060 Persian prophet Zoroaster, also known as Zarathustra. It's one of the world's oldest

00:11:04.400 monotheistic religions, and is still practiced today as a minority religion in parts of Iran

00:11:09.700 and India. So Zoroaster likely lived sometime, this is like, I'm not a student of ancient history,

00:11:20.560 but when you see information, it's like he lived sometime between 1500 and 500 BC. It's like,

00:11:25.740 we don't know. This was incredibly long ago. So, but he, Zoroaster, taught followers to worship

00:11:31.920 one god instead of the many deities worshipped by other earlier groups in this area. So Cyrus 0.82

00:11:38.600 and the Darius, all the kings of the Archiminid dynasty, were Zoroastrian. And I think partially

00:11:47.080 because of what this religion is all about, this shaped kind of what their culture was like.

00:11:53.380 So by most accounts, Cyrus the Great was a tolerant ruler who allowed his subjects to speak their own languages and practice their own religions.

00:12:00.940 And he didn't impose Zoroastrianism on the people of the conquered territories.

00:12:06.660 And so this is also circa the time of like the Old Testament of the Bible.

00:12:13.920 Things were happening.

00:12:14.740 So some of what we know about this era comes from Hebrew scriptures, which praised Cyrus the Great for freeing the Jewish people of Babylon from captivity and allowing them to return to Jerusalem.

00:12:26.100 So Cyrus, the founder of all of this, was around like, he died around 529 BC.

00:12:34.620 Artemisia of Caria was active around 520.

00:12:38.020 So remember, it's BC.

00:12:39.160 So that's like nine years later.

00:12:41.720 So they overlapped by a bit.

00:12:43.760 but Cyrus wasn't the king when she was doing what I'm able to tell you that she did.

00:12:49.420 So by the time Artemisia of Caria was on the scene, the king of Persia was Xerxes I,

00:12:55.120 who was the grandson of Cyrus. Xerxes, which is a fantastic name I think we need to bring back,

00:13:02.740 is quasi well known because he was the one who invaded Greece to try and spread the Persian

00:13:10.680 empire into again it's not like the country of greece we now know as greece it's kind of like

00:13:16.280 islands in the mediterranean that just like cumulatively we're just gonna kind of call

00:13:21.860 greece because it's kind of where greece greek people were so xerxes's forces temporarily

00:13:28.840 overran mainland greece but then they had some losses and then the invasion ended up not working

00:13:36.180 out entirely. And this is part of what Artemisia is going to do. So like, hang on, we'll get to

00:13:42.120 what she had to do with all of that. Xerxes is also known for successfully crushing revolts in

00:13:47.620 Egypt and Babylon. He also has, this is another person of history who has a bad reputation,

00:13:55.060 but I'd never heard of them. To me, he had no reputation, but he had a bad reputation.

00:13:59.540 And this is because I mentioned that the Persian empire shrank, became smaller after Alexander the

00:14:06.140 great conquered a bunch of those territories and so alexander the great necessarily like in order

00:14:11.580 to be like i am alexander the great so he had to say like all the people who are my enemies are 0.80

00:14:15.900 like they suck they're terrible people so he vilified xerxes and said that he was no good

00:14:21.220 you know even though xerxes was also conquering places it's like not in a cool way like alexander 0.93

00:14:25.380 was so i believe xerxes is also i thought i written this down but i didn't yeah in the bible

00:14:34.680 so there is the book of esther oh is that in the bible or is that in like

00:14:41.080 the i think it's in the bible i don't know you know how there's like some stories that are in

00:14:46.900 the bible and then there's some stories that were in the bible and they were taken out of the bible

00:14:50.420 anyway it's a story in both christianity and in jewish traditions let's read esther esther was

00:14:55.880 the wife of xerxes so in the bible he's called a hasurus but i don't know why he's called that

00:15:04.120 but that's Xerxes I. So like, we're like overlapping with the Bible era. So just like

00:15:11.240 oldie times. Anyway, so this all brings us to our heroine. Finally, Artemisia of Caria.

00:15:21.080 So Artemisia of Caria, and I need to make note, Artemisia I of Caria, there's also an Artemisia

00:15:26.520 II of Caria, who is like 100 years later. And when you're researching her, often people confuse the

00:15:33.640 but I'm very specifically just talking about Artemisia, the first of Caria. So she was the

00:15:39.200 queen of Halicarnassus, which was a city in Anatolia, which is modern day Turkey, more or

00:15:47.200 less. So in this era, so because Cyrus had captured all kinds of places, so Artemisia was

00:15:55.040 a Greek person, even though Greece like wasn't a country. But so the city had been held by the

00:16:01.360 Greeks, but then it was captured, I think, during the time of Cyrus. And so now she was what's

00:16:06.440 called a client queen. So like she was in charge of Helicarnassus, but officially like Xerxes was

00:16:12.600 in charge of her and like all the other sort of like kings and queens of the places he had conquered

00:16:17.140 because he wasn't, you know, he didn't enforce religion on people. He just kind of like let them

00:16:22.260 be in charge, but he was officially their boss. So the city that she was the queen of was allied

00:16:28.460 with Xerxes and the Persian Empire. So her father had been the governor of Halicarnassus. It's called

00:16:35.560 the satrap. And her, or maybe he was the king. Again, this is not my area of expertise. I just

00:16:42.680 know her father had been the satrap of Halicarnassus. Her mother was from the island of Crete. 0.52

00:16:49.760 So presumably her husband had been the king. And then they had a son and her husband died.

00:16:57.880 and as we've seen in so many stories in so many eras and it's kind of refreshing to see it again

00:17:04.480 here in this like extraordinarily long ago story so she had the son but the son was young so she

00:17:11.200 took over as queen like well the boy was officially the king but like she was the adult in charge

00:17:17.720 so it was likely one of those regency things where she was just in charge until he came of age 0.54

00:17:23.400 sort of situation. So her name, Artemisia, sometimes she's called just Artemis. Depends 0.61

00:17:31.020 on your language, I guess. But Artemisia derives from Artemis, which is the name of the Greek god

00:17:35.120 of chastity, hunting, and the moon, who is often depicted with her trusty bow and arrow and a short

00:17:40.900 tunic to aid in running through the woods. This is, I'm pretty sure, the goddess. So in Roman

00:17:46.020 mythology, she was known as Diana. And I think this is the goddess who Hortense Mancini was

00:17:50.840 often painted to look like because she also liked hunting. Anyway, so it's like a fitting name

00:17:56.100 because Artemisia I of Caria was a military leader. I'm going to guess she was also good

00:18:01.200 at hunting. So I'm not entirely sure how culturally she would have been treated because women in this

00:18:09.420 era were treated differently in the Persian empire, like in places where Persian people

00:18:14.700 were living versus how they're treated in Greece. But where she was a client queen to the Persian

00:18:19.160 empire. I'm not sure how much culturally that would affect the way she's treated because it was

00:18:24.080 quite different. So for instance, in the ancient Persian empire, women were respected and in many

00:18:31.580 cases seen as the equal of men. Women could own land, conduct business. They received equal pay, 0.99

00:18:37.280 could travel freely on their own. And in the case of royal women, hold their own council meetings 0.98

00:18:41.360 on policy this is so like i used a refreshing before but this is just like really interesting

00:18:50.020 to me because i as much as i've looked at all these stories and i know that it's not just like

00:18:54.860 women used to have no rights and then like women get more and more rights as history goes on no

00:18:59.120 it's like a push and pull like some eras women had more rights some eras women had less rights

00:19:03.180 But this is like, oh, so in like the year 480 BC in ancient Persia, women received equal pay.

00:19:12.700 And now we're in 2022. 0.95

00:19:14.380 Just like what the fuck is going on in the world? 0.97

00:19:16.720 Anyway, that being said, by contrast, in ancient Greece at the same time, women had few rights in comparison to male citizens. 0.97

00:19:26.540 That's the word citizens is looming large there because I believe there was also enslaved people and none of them had any rights.

00:19:32.740 but male citizens had rights. So in ancient Greece, at the same time, women were unable to vote. They

00:19:39.060 could not own land. They could not inherit. A woman's place was in the home and her purpose in

00:19:43.340 life was the rearing of children. So it's, you know, it's giving me Joseon dynasty, Korea sort 1.00

00:19:49.720 of vibes. We've looked at other cultures like that where women just like were not expected to do 1.00

00:19:56.020 stuff. And it was just a real confusing to people if they tried to. And I think this is part of why 1.00

00:20:02.380 we know about Artemisia because that's not what she did. She was very much an exception to

00:20:07.100 that understanding. So I'm not sure, like she was the queen, but I think it was a thing like

00:20:14.020 she was a queen technically because her son was the king. And when he grew up, maybe she would

00:20:18.660 stop being the queen. But also bear in mind, everything we know about her, which again is like,

00:20:25.760 you know what? It's an impressive amount considering how long ago this was,

00:20:28.940 but she did not leave her memoirs like what we know about her was written by ancient greek men

00:20:34.500 who saw her life and actions through the lens of how their understanding of how women should behave

00:20:39.280 so it was really like it was notable to them because that was not how she was behaving

00:20:45.080 and kind of like in the ronnie did a episode where we only know about her because that one guy

00:20:52.060 wrote about her so here we only know about artemisia the first of caria because one person

00:20:58.200 read about her. And that was Herodotus. So he was an ancient Greek writer, also from Helicarnassus,

00:21:05.320 same place she was from. So he was born at around the same time as Artemisia's most famous actions

00:21:11.920 were occurring. So presumably, like, he was not a witness to this being, you know, an infant at the

00:21:17.240 time. But he would have grown up hearing about her. And clearly that had an impact on him because he

00:21:22.680 heard these stories and felt that it was important enough to write about her, even though he was from

00:21:27.000 a culture, the ancient Greek culture, that did not think much of women. So, I mean, effectively

00:21:36.020 taking away Herodotus, because this is what we know about her. So this is the story. On my notes,

00:21:42.320 it's called The Story. Xerxes, the king of the Persian Empire, was setting out to conquer Greece

00:21:50.860 and the Greek islands. And to do this, he needed buy-in from leaders like Artemisia and the other

00:21:56.080 client kings. I think she was the only client queen at the time. The region that she was the

00:22:03.000 queen of, like she was a queen of Helicarnassus, but that included Greek cities along the coastline.

00:22:08.080 And so for ship based reasons, like he had to get her help. He had to get her ships. He had to get

00:22:12.060 her troops. So she was the only woman who led troops in this whole thing because everything 0.91

00:22:19.680 else, everyone else was being led by men. But not only did she like offer her ships, but she

00:22:25.320 personally commanded a contingent of five ships in the armada supporting this invasion of greece

00:22:30.440 only one other ruler contributed more ships than she did for this cause and the ships she brought

00:22:35.960 were really good ships they had a really good that's apparently the second best reputation in

00:22:40.620 the whole fleet so not quite the best but getting there so xerxes was planning an attack in salamis

00:22:49.420 is an ancient greek city-state on the east coast of cyprus it's a place now i am here to tell you

00:22:57.600 that the word is written identically to the word salamis like the lunch meat and every time i see

00:23:03.520 it my brain thinks the battle of salamis no and i just picture people with like throwing salami

00:23:08.720 at each other no it is not the battle of salamis disrespectful and the battle of salamis but just

00:23:15.000 please know every time I see this word, I think salamis. So he was preparing, God, now I just want

00:23:21.740 to say that, but I won't, I won't, salamis. So he's planning just to invade in this crucial area. 1.00

00:23:27.820 So he gathered all of his naval commanders together to just kind of like make a game plan,

00:23:32.520 you know, like football team getting ready to do their thing. Although he gathered them together,

00:23:37.200 he, Xerxes, was not there, but he put them, I don't know, all in a room together and sent his

00:23:41.120 assistant, his helper, Mardonios, to kind of like follow up with them and see what did they think?

00:23:48.620 What do the naval commanders think? And so Mardonios came in to be like, okay, naval commanders,

00:23:52.240 do you think we should do this? Should we have a naval battle at Salamis? And all the men were

00:23:58.260 like, yes, no, great plan. Naval battle. Except Artemisia, who is like, no, don't think so. Here

00:24:04.880 is the quote of what she said. Tell the king to spare his ships and not do a naval battle because

00:24:09.940 our enemies are much stronger than us in the sea, as men are two women. And why does he need to risk 1.00

00:24:15.120 a naval battle? Athens, for which he did undertake this expedition, is his, and the rest of Greece

00:24:20.580 too. No man can stand against him, and they who once resisted were destroyed. If Xerxes chose not

00:24:26.940 to rush into a naval encounter, but instead kept his ships close to the shore and either stayed

00:24:31.460 there or moved them towards the Peloponnese, victory would be his. The Greeks can't hold out 1.00

00:24:36.380 against him for very long. They will leave for their cities because they don't have food in

00:24:40.060 store on this island, as I have learned. And when our army will march against the Peloponnese,

00:24:44.880 they who have come from there will become worried and they will not stay here to defend Athens.

00:24:49.960 But if he hurries to engage, I am afraid that the navy will be defeated and the land forces

00:24:54.620 will be weakened as well. In addition, he should also consider that he has certain untrustworthy

00:24:59.380 allies like the Egyptians, the Cyprians, the Kilikians, and the Pamphylians who are completely 0.99

00:25:04.900 useless. Now this is obviously a translation from Herodotus writing this in presumably ancient

00:25:11.240 Greek, but I do like, and this is also, you know, a paraphrase of what he heard or imagined she

00:25:17.040 would have said. Effectively, she's saying, this is a bad idea. Like we're going to lose if we do

00:25:22.180 a naval battle, but I liked it. It's translated as calling these other people completely useless 0.89

00:25:26.620 because that's a word I use. So just useless, you know, anyway, she tells it like it is. She's 0.94

00:25:33.500 just like, no, this is a bad idea. And here's why. But it seems like this was all just sort

00:25:38.100 of a formality that he asked the military leaders if he should do it because he was

00:25:42.140 pretty much decided he was going to do it. And he didn't listen to her. And I mean,

00:25:47.740 spoiler alert, she was right. But also, like maybe Herodotus added this to the story that

00:25:55.700 he wrote to make her sound like, you know, a prophetess to add some dramatic irony to

00:26:01.960 the whole story, but maybe she, maybe he did. And she also did that. Cause I, I'm going off of such

00:26:08.540 little information, but I get the sense that she like got it. She was, she had good instincts and

00:26:14.060 she knew what was going on and people should have listened to her. And that is the story of every

00:26:17.000 woman in history we've ever talked about on this podcast. So Xerxes didn't listen to her, led his 0.88

00:26:23.000 army in a sea battle and we'll quote led. What Xerxes did was he watched the battle from shore,

00:26:30.260 from like a big chair there's a movie called it's so you know there's the movie 300 that's about

00:26:39.400 that other early times battle so there's a prequel to that that came out that was not

00:26:46.760 very successful called 300 rise of an empire and xerxes is in that movie and artemis of caria is

00:26:53.900 played by eva green which is apparently it's like not a good movie and her character i'll talk about

00:27:01.240 that later how they kind of reimagined her character but eva green is an actress who i feel

00:27:05.940 like could really embody so many badass leaders women from history like i could see eva green

00:27:12.660 playing fredigant i could see eva green playing brunhilde i could see a movie that's eva green 0.75

00:27:17.820 versus Eva Green as Fredrick and Brunhilde. Oh my gosh, my cat is attacking a plastic bag.

00:27:25.880 Anyway, so yes, so I guess famously in the movie or very dramatically in the movie,

00:27:32.020 they put him in some big chair and I think they make him be like a god or something as well.

00:27:36.080 Anyways, Xerxes is watching the battle from shore and he's watching it because he wanted to make

00:27:40.880 sure his men and Artemisia fought bravely because at a previous battle, he had not been there

00:27:47.240 watching. And apparently his men had not been as brave as he wanted. So he felt like if they knew

00:27:51.460 he was watching, they would act more brave or something. So he was there to see Artemisia's

00:27:58.600 bravery and what he saw. She was, she proved herself to be so competent and naval commander

00:28:04.880 that apparently he said among the people fighting, the men fought like women and the women fought

00:28:11.460 like men, which is like, this is a society with a real binary sort of thing. Wasn't that in

00:28:17.200 Artemisia's, the quote from her before anyway, but this is, you know what? Ultimately, this is a

00:28:23.100 compliment saying that she was braver and better than any of the men because she was great. So

00:28:29.060 what did she do that he saw that was so great? So according to our pal Herodotus, battle was not

00:28:36.320 going well i mean also please know this battle was lost by the persian side but so the persian

00:28:42.360 fleet was not doing great apparently an athenian ship so like on the greek side pursued artemisia's

00:28:49.500 ship and she was not able to escape because there's other ships in front of her like that

00:28:54.380 were persian ships this is this is this is what we know she did i know very little about artemisia

00:28:59.780 no one knows anything about artemisia except for this thing she did so she's sort of trapped in

00:29:04.480 she's got like Persian ships ahead of her. Those are her allies. This Greek ship is chasing her 1.00

00:29:08.980 and she's like, what am I going to do? And what she did was she charged against one of the Persian 0.75

00:29:14.720 ships manned by people of Kalindos. And on which in fact, the king of the Kalindians was located.

00:29:22.980 And I think that's one of the group of people who she said, no, that's actually, that's not one of

00:29:26.520 the groups she said was useless. So maybe they were okay. Anyway, she just rammed her ship into

00:29:31.880 their ship. Their ship sank. The king, so Herodotus, has a suggestion that maybe Artemisia 1.00

00:29:40.060 had previously had a disagreement with this king. So maybe this was kind of like her way of getting

00:29:44.840 out of this situation, but also of just like murdering her enemy, which is like, I have to 0.91

00:29:49.760 say, a real Fredigan level tits out move. So she sank her own ally ship, which is like, wait,

00:29:58.420 why is that good? Well, first of all, because ramming a ship into a ship is like a pretty

00:30:02.460 cool thing to imagine happening. Yeah. So according to a later account, and again,

00:30:10.680 this is just people trying to make sense of this, apparently, because, you know, if Xerxes had seen

00:30:16.220 Artemisia ramming her ship into their own ally's ship, why would he be like, that's great? But the

00:30:22.080 thing is, he didn't know that's what happened. He just thought that she had taken down an enemy ship,

00:30:26.460 I think. Anyway, so what she did was, allegedly, when she saw that she was going to be captured

00:30:32.760 by the Greeks, she ordered the flag, the Persian flag, to be removed, taken down from her ship,

00:30:37.920 so they could pretend like they weren't Persian, and then to attack the other ship.

00:30:45.100 Anyway, so this all worked out because, so the captain of the Athenian ship, the ship that was

00:30:50.700 attacking her, saw her, like, attack the Persian ship, and then he was like, oh, oh wait, she's,

00:30:56.080 like switched teams. She's on our side now. So I'm not going to attack her. I'm going to attack

00:30:59.380 somebody else. So this worked. It saved her. It saved her crew. The captain of the Athenian ship 0.91

00:31:05.780 probably didn't know Artemisia was on the ship because otherwise he would have been like classic

00:31:11.420 Artemisia and he would have kept going after her because orders had previous to this been given to

00:31:17.540 the Athenian captains. And moreover, a prize was offered of 10,000 drachmas for the man who should

00:31:23.820 take Artemisia alive because they thought that it was the Greeks. Remember how much they hate

00:31:28.340 women? They thought it was intolerable that a woman should make an expedition against Athens. 1.00

00:31:32.600 So she was extra, extra somebody who you wanted to capture because just the fact that she was a

00:31:39.020 woman, naval leader was the Greeks. It was a real Herm and my pills moment for them. So

00:31:46.780 there is, I don't know. So it's like, did she just take down the flag and everyone's like,

00:31:51.660 oh guess that's not a persian ship or she might have had both flags and she did a switcheroo

00:31:56.980 depending on who she was fighting or something anyway something with the flags it worked

00:32:02.320 apparently when xerxes saw her sink the ship he said oh zeus surely you have formed women out of

00:32:09.700 man's materials and men out of women's i think that's just the same a different translation of

00:32:14.740 the like my men are women and my women are men but basically he's just like hell yeah so

00:32:20.360 she fought so well at salamis even though they lost that oh no this is just about the there was

00:32:28.680 the reward again but just for scale so the the reward of 10 000 drachmas just for the record

00:32:37.620 was how much is that in today's money i'm not sure but that was about the weekly wage

00:32:42.660 of 2 000 people so a hell of a lot of money to capture her the greek they just really wanted

00:32:50.340 to capture her they did not and now we're just going to take a break for a word from our sponsors

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00:35:22.120 plutarch in his work parallel lives mentions that it was artemisia who recognized the body of

00:35:30.780 ariamenes now i forget no that's a different story the names look really similar the captain

00:35:38.140 of the athenian ship was amenius but another person ariamenes apparently artemisia recognized

00:35:46.560 his body i don't know floating around that xerxes his brother and she brought the body

00:35:51.120 back to Xerxes. So Plutarch wrote about this too, but I think this is all based on what Herodotus

00:35:56.620 said, but maybe there's just, you know, stories spread about. More details got added later.

00:36:01.720 So after the battle, according to Polyanus, Xerxes acknowledged Artemisia excelled above

00:36:09.120 all the officers in the fleet, yes, and as a gift sent her a complete suit of Greek armor.

00:36:14.260 now I have to presume this was a unisex armor because there was not lady armor because women

00:36:22.200 couldn't do stuff but um he also presented the captain of her ship this is interesting 0.92

00:36:27.560 with a distaff and spindle and I looked up what are those things and those are used for spinning

00:36:32.380 yarn so was that a thing men did or was this like uh your captain's a lady so here's some

00:36:38.560 spinning stuff. I'm not sure, but nice. Some armor and some things for spinning.

00:36:46.160 So according to Herodotus, after the defeat, Xerxes presented Artemisia with two possible

00:36:50.620 courses of action. Like they lost the battle. I don't want to under emphasize the fact that

00:36:55.340 she did amazing, but they still lost. So he presented her with two options and asked her

00:37:02.740 which one she preferred. So either he would lead troops. So he's just like, he didn't take her

00:37:09.300 advice earlier. And now he's like, okay, didn't take your advice before. Here's the two options.

00:37:13.780 Which do you think I should do? So either he would lead troops to the Peloponnese himself,

00:37:18.580 or he would withdraw from Greece and leave his general Mardonius in charge. Artemisia suggested

00:37:25.300 that he should retreat back to Asia Minor. And she advocated the plan suggested by Mardonius,

00:37:31.460 who requested 300,000 Persian soldiers

00:37:33.640 with which he would defeat the Greeks in Xerxes' absence.

00:37:38.580 So here's a quote.

00:37:40.960 Again, we know so little about her.

00:37:42.440 I'll just, here's what she said, the advice she gave.

00:37:45.900 I think you should retire and leave Mardonius behind

00:37:48.360 with those whom he desires to have.

00:37:50.300 If he succeeds, the honor will be yours

00:37:52.140 because your slaves performed it.

00:37:54.240 If on the other hand, he fails,

00:37:55.760 it would be no great matter as you would be safe

00:37:57.620 and no danger threatens anything that concerns your house.

00:38:00.800 And while you will be safe, the Greeks will have to pass through many difficulties for their own

00:38:04.320 existence. In addition, if Mardonius were to suffer a disaster, who would care? He's just

00:38:09.300 your slave and the Greeks will have but a poor triumph. As for yourself, you will be going home 1.00

00:38:13.720 with the object for your campaign accomplished, for you have burned Athens. And Xerxes learned 0.77

00:38:19.880 from his past mistake and listened to her. So he left Mardonius to conduct the war in Greece.

00:38:24.740 and he sent Artemisia to Ephesus to take care of his illegitimate sons. Like, I guess that's an

00:38:32.080 honor. I don't, I don't know. It's not like you're a woman. Please babysit my sons. It was something

00:38:38.700 more important than that. Maybe, I don't know, but it was some sort of honor. Anyway, so opinions

00:38:48.260 about Artemisia I of Caria, because that's the last we know of anything she did. We just know

00:38:53.200 she like was the queen, did this thing where she rammed the other ship, Xerxes thought she was

00:38:59.160 great. And then she disappears from history entirely. So I wish that there's more to tell

00:39:05.700 you about her. But what I can tell you about her is her legacy. So Herodotus, it speaks,

00:39:14.220 I think it's a huge deal that Herodotus, a Greek man from like the same time period as her had a

00:39:19.640 favorable opinion of her, even though, as I described, women in Greek culture were supposed

00:39:24.220 to stay home and have babies. But Herodotus thought that she was great. He wrote about her

00:39:30.300 and because of him and his favorable opinion of her, we know about her. Even though she supported

00:39:36.740 Persia, who by the time Herodotus was writing, were the enemies of him. He praised her decisiveness

00:39:44.580 and intelligence and emphasized her influence on Xerxes. On the other hand, so this is like

00:39:50.960 oldie time people writing about her. Thessalus, a son of Hippocrates, described Artemisia in a

00:39:56.800 speech as a cowardly pirate. I love the emerging sudden end of season piracy theme we're having

00:40:04.940 on Vulgar History. And spoiler, there is going to be another pirate story before the season ends.

00:40:09.220 anyway so what Thessalus said let's see so I don't know he just like made up a story but okay here's

00:40:16.140 what he said Thessalus claimed the king of Persia demanded earth and water from the Koans in 493 BC

00:40:24.320 but they refused so he gave the island to Artemisia to be wasted Artemisia led a fleet of ships to the

00:40:29.800 island of Kos to slaughter the Koans but the gods intervened the Greek gods I guess after

00:40:37.200 Artemisia's ships were destroyed by lightning and she hallucinated visions of great heroes,

00:40:41.680 she fled. However, she later conquered the island. So maybe that's the thing she did.

00:40:48.240 Thirteen centuries later, a legend was quoted that claimed that Artemisia fell in love with

00:40:54.680 a man from Abydos named Dardanus. And when he ignored her, she blinded him while he was sleeping,

00:41:00.040 which I have to say, tits out behavior. But her love for him increased. An oracle told her to 0.93

00:41:06.280 jumped from the top of a rock, but she was killed after she jumped from the rock. So an oracle told

00:41:10.880 her to jump and then she like jumped, but then died. But I don't think the oracle meant for her

00:41:15.300 to kill herself. Those who leapt from this rock were said to be cured from the passion of love.

00:41:21.160 According to legend, Sappho, the famous lesbian, literally killed herself by jumping from these

00:41:27.940 cliffs because of someone who she was in unrequited love with. Anyway, I don't know. I have to say,

00:41:33.800 does not sound like Artemisia. Sounds like there's maybe a legend that they attach it to

00:41:37.740 her name. I don't know. So in Sparta, there was a monument that was very striking and it was made

00:41:51.280 of spoils taken in the Persian war. So this is like Greek people doing this. So over time, 0.99

00:41:56.840 the Spartans altered it. So like they pillaged all this stuff and I guess just carved it and

00:42:01.600 made it look cooler and better and more artistic. On the pillars were figures carved out of white

00:42:06.940 marvel, including a figure of Artemisia. So what is her legacy now? I mean, as me,

00:42:19.200 not a person who knows a lot about the influence of the ancient world on the modern world,

00:42:23.680 I tried to find what I could. So this is where I turned to the online magazine Persianesque.

00:42:29.240 So a writer there, Parisa Sarange, writes that Pravin Etesami, an Iranian poet known for her

00:42:37.820 debate poems, mentions Artemisia in her work and praises Artemisia's wit and skill in matters of 0.67

00:42:42.700 warfare. This is a further quote from Parisa in Persian-esque, writes that Artemisia is not the 1.00

00:42:50.860 only female warrior in Persian history. Artemisia is merely just one in a long line of ancient

00:42:55.380 Persian women in power. Pantea, for example, is a commander of the immortal guards of the 1.00

00:43:01.000 Achaimid dynasty. There are also many historical accounts from Roman and Greek periods referencing

00:43:05.800 Iranian women warriors. In one account, Zonaras XII writes,

00:43:11.220 Amongst those who fell in the Persian army and were being stripped of their arms,

00:43:14.440 there are said to have been found women also dressed in arm-like men, and that such women

00:43:18.200 were also taken alive by the Romans. So since the reign of two sisters who ruled Iran consecutively,

00:43:25.380 in the Sassanid era, the old Persian custom of having Persian women leaders and rulers has not

00:43:31.160 been a consistent practice amongst Iran's myriad of rulers over the years. But the admiration for

00:43:37.560 this particular lady admiral shows how Artemisia's inspiring life story has persevered and lived on

00:43:43.780 as it is still widely sought out, told, and retold today. And quote, so several, so some ships have

00:43:51.380 been named after her. I feel like what a better tribute than to name a ship after her. You don't

00:43:56.620 want to, I don't know, just her famous thing was she rammed a ship into another ship and sank it. 0.99

00:44:01.560 So like, if you call a ship after her, that's like a badass ship. So in the 1960s, an Iranian 0.64

00:44:07.180 destroyer was named for her, but it was since renamed after the 1979 Iranian revolution.

00:44:13.540 This was the largest ship in the Navy there. In Greece, she's, I mean, so she has an effect on

00:44:21.300 because of her involvement in Persian history, but also she was a Greek person. So people in Greece

00:44:25.680 also remember her as a hero. So there's a novel called Creation by Gore Vidal. And in this

00:44:32.980 depiction, it shows, or it imagines that Artemisia had a long relationship with the Persian general

00:44:38.340 Mardonius, who I mentioned a couple of times. He's the one who was sent to ask what people

00:44:42.820 thought they should do. And then he was the one who at the end, she was like, usually Mardonius

00:44:46.800 here to conquer people. So in this novel, it shows him acting as her consort in Helicarnassus,

00:44:53.500 but she refused to marry him, determined to prove her independence. And then in the movie,

00:44:58.800 the 2014 movie, 300 Rise of an Empire, Artemisia is featured, played by Eva Green, love her, 0.74

00:45:06.040 but they imagine this backstory for her in that movie that's like she was enslaved

00:45:11.040 by the greeks like she was like a sex slave and then she i'm not sure how in this story she becomes

00:45:17.320 then she's like this femme fatale and she becomes a naval commander but she's the villain of the 0.71

00:45:20.920 movie i guess she has some badass fight scenes which like worth it to see eva green and some 1.00

00:45:25.360 badass fight scenes but she's kind of like a sexy bad girl who like uses sexy things to try and win 1.00

00:45:31.680 the battle and it's funny to me that they were like the only reason why greek women would fight 0.97

00:45:36.840 against the Greeks as if the Greeks, they were just like, why would a Greek woman fight against 0.75

00:45:41.420 her own people? Like not the ramming the ship into the ship, but the fact that she was working 0.96

00:45:45.020 with the Persians against the Greeks. And so they were like, well, the only reason was if she had 0.59

00:45:49.800 some sort of like sex based trauma in her background. And it's just like, people can be

00:45:55.980 complex. Anyway, she also appears Artemisia, the first of Caria, as a playable character in the

00:46:02.000 mobile PC game, Rise of Kingdoms. And so now it's time to score Artemisia of Caria. And it's

00:46:10.840 challenging in the sense of we know so little about her, but based on the fact that we know

00:46:18.060 anything about her, I think we can glean together some scores. So the first category is

00:46:25.760 scandaliciousness. So, I mean, that's where usually, so things like the story about like,

00:46:31.940 did she gouge out that guy's eyes when he didn't love her? I feel like that's like less likely to

00:46:36.260 be actually true about her. And she was, I don't know. I mean, I think that there was a bit of like

00:46:42.380 harm in my pills when the Greek people understood that she was a woman and she was 1.00

00:46:47.940 leading this naval battle, but that was, that was the Greeks that was their enemy,

00:46:53.160 even though she was Greek, but to the Persians, like Xerxes thought she was great. Herodotus

00:46:58.760 recorded her as this great person. There's other people who've talked about who, the way that they

00:47:04.200 were recorded by the men who wrote about them, like Cleopatra, or even like Ronnie Ditta, the 0.99

00:47:07.900 men who wrote about them were kind of like, ugh, but she was kind of like a bit of a messy bitch 1.00

00:47:12.940 who lived for drama. But Artemisia, I don't think was seen as scandalous in her time by the people 1.00

00:47:20.240 who mattered to her. That being said, the Greeks did put out a bounty for her for being a lady 0.99

00:47:28.680 naval commander. So there's a bit of scandalousness, not super a lot. I'm going to give

00:47:34.260 her like a four because there's definitely some there, but it's not, that was not what she was

00:47:38.860 notable for. Scheminess. I think this is where she's going to score highly because, because the 1.00

00:47:44.560 one thing we know about her is she did this scheme as she was out there leading the naval 0.98

00:47:49.940 vessels. She knew that she was cornered and there was no way out unless she sank this other ship, 0.94

00:47:55.820 which was conveniently perhaps being captained by a guy who she had beef with. So the fact that

00:48:01.940 she did that, that she came up with this plan on the fly, whether or not she had secretly two sets

00:48:07.440 of sails that she would interchange, the fact that Xerxes himself was like, oh, like, hell yeah,

00:48:13.620 like her scheminess I think was significant like the fact that whether or not she knew beforehand

00:48:20.820 to warn him to not do the naval battle whether or not it's true that she later on he sought out

00:48:27.400 her counsel like the thing we know she did was she rammed the ship into the other ship and it

00:48:33.680 was such a notable thing that not only Xerxes was excited about it but Herodotus wrote about it and

00:48:40.400 honestly, we know so little about her, but she was so skeebiness that Herodotus couldn't not

00:48:45.380 write about it. And that to me in this context is a 10. So her significance is another, this is a

00:48:54.680 category that, I mean, honestly, all these categories are subjective and me and what mood

00:49:00.780 am I in? But like the significance, sometimes I look at this and it's like, often I look at this

00:49:06.160 And it's like, well, what's their significance to history?

00:49:08.300 How did their life affect the course of events or whatever?

00:49:14.120 And people like Isabella from Ferdinand and Isabella, like that's pretty major.

00:49:19.080 She funded Christopher Columbus and that we're still living with a legacy of that today.

00:49:25.100 Artemisia of Caria was so long ago.

00:49:27.540 She fought with Xerxes, who didn't manage to capture the Greek islands.

00:49:31.260 And I don't think she was certainly not the reason why he failed in that.

00:49:34.400 but where i think that she is significant is the fact that she's like the only woman who's mentioned

00:49:41.100 in herodotus's writings like she was so significant to him as a person from helicarnassus

00:49:47.760 she was so significant to other writers of this period like her significance as a woman from this

00:49:55.520 long ago who was mentioned at all when there are so many other women who i'm sure were doing

00:49:59.100 other cool things and we don't know about them like so as like a literary figure like as a person

00:50:04.700 who was written about but also the fact that she was this warrior she was significant enough to

00:50:09.460 the greeks that they had that 10 000 drachmas bounty on her head and just because she's scoring

00:50:15.460 not amazing in other categories but also i think her significance just as like a woman from this

00:50:21.320 part of the world who can be a heroine to all of us now i'm giving her i'm giving her 10 for 0.94

00:50:26.180 significance and then the final category is the sexism bonus which i don't like if she had been 0.97

00:50:33.380 like probably other greek women at the time like not allowed to do anything not permitted to take 1.00

00:50:38.760 on a leadership role like this then she got a high sexism score but the fact that she was 0.91

00:50:42.980 that she was a queen that she ruled after her husband died in the name of her son i assume 1.00

00:50:48.260 but then also the fact that she was entrusted and allowed to be a military commander and she

00:50:53.400 so effective that the Greeks put this bounty on her head like sexism was not does not seem to have

00:51:00.120 held her back except for maybe she would have been written about more had that not been a thing but 0.78

00:51:04.840 she was written about you know so I feel like the sexism is not that much in her way which does not

00:51:13.500 that's not you know good for her or whatever but it's just like I think that wasn't a big 1.00

00:51:19.540 stomach block for her you know she wasn't like locked up in a tower etc the sexism affected the

00:51:24.340 way that she was written about later like that story about her throwing herself off the rocks

00:51:27.640 and stuff but like oh it's low score for sex i'm gonna say a three so this is gonna be easy to add

00:51:35.500 up this is 20 27 which honestly is just like so much the average score this is a score like people

00:51:43.480 who just score high in some low in some in between and some others here's what i like to see though

00:51:49.200 I'm always curious to see who gets the same score as other people. So she's got a 27. The other

00:51:56.260 pirate-adjacent woman we've talked about, Saida Al Hura, also has a 27. The other pirate-adjacent

00:52:01.940 woman, Sarah Kidd, also a 27. It's also the same score as Ana de Mendoza, who's not a pirate,

00:52:07.720 but wore an eyepatch. So, and honestly, after what I just said about Isabel of Castile was so

00:52:14.000 significant. She also got a 27. Honestly, this is so many people. It's truly, it's really a great

00:52:20.820 grouping of people. It's 27. Jean de Lamont has a 27. It's a great score. She's in good company

00:52:27.000 here. Oh, and then there's also the Lady Jane Seymour Memorial Award for Outstanding Supporting

00:52:31.840 Performance. We know so little about her life. I hope she had like some good friends. Xerxes like

00:52:37.160 kind of had her back a little bit, but not at all to the level that I would ever give him that award.

00:52:44.000 So that's Artemisia I of Caria. And because this episode is coming out when it's coming out,

00:52:53.900 which is like towards the end of November, I mean, we listened to this at the beginning of

00:52:59.320 December. I wanted to just mention some things because this is a time of year when lots of

00:53:03.760 people are buying presents for other people. So first off, if you're like, I want to get some of

00:53:10.240 that merch. I want to, you know, if you're a fan of Vulgar History and you want to just give

00:53:14.460 somebody a Vulgar History gift and just, and they don't know what it's about, but it'll make you

00:53:18.620 smile. But also if you're buying a gift for somebody who is a fan of Vulgar History, I do

00:53:24.040 have a merch store. It is at vulgarhistory.store. And when you're on that store, you can always use

00:53:29.400 promo code titsout for free US shipping or titsout10 for 10% off. And along with all the

00:53:35.700 usual merch that's there. There are some special holiday items. I had them last year and I've

00:53:40.460 brought them back because they make me smile. There's mugs and t-shirts and things, stickers

00:53:45.080 with the holiday slogans for vulgar history, which are tits the season, tits out for the holidays, 0.78

00:53:52.060 and then a special Hanukkah themed one that has a picture of a menorah. And then it says 0.96

00:53:57.300 Candelicious. So that's all there in the store. Those are going to be all available basically

00:54:02.360 until Christmas. So if you want to get those things, but if you're going to buy some stuff

00:54:06.000 and you want it to arrive by Christmas, if that's the holiday you celebrate,

00:54:09.660 I recommend ordering by the beginning of December to ensure your stuff arrives on time.

00:54:16.240 And then also I mentioned this last time, but I do want to let you know that this is the thing

00:54:19.680 I'm happy to do. So if you want as a gift to give to somebody an audio recording of me

00:54:25.840 saying, you know, happy Hanukkah or Merry Christmas or tits out, or just like having a little

00:54:31.080 saying something, I don't know, like 30 seconds of whatever. You can contact me about that. I'm 0.50

00:54:36.940 happy to do it. It's like cameo, except just my voice. And I do it myself, not through cameo,

00:54:43.220 because I'm not that famous. Anyway, you can use the contact form at vulgarhistory.com

00:54:48.880 to get in touch with me. If that is something you want to know more about.

00:54:53.100 You can also contact me where I'm on social media, but I mean, also follow me on social media.

00:54:57.020 so um i'm on instagram at vulgar history pod and then also i'm now on tiktok at vulgar history

00:55:04.780 where i'm still figuring things out but having a nice time so far and it's been nice to connect

00:55:09.020 with some tits up brigade members there as well oh also in terms of holiday gift giving

00:55:14.240 so i mentioned so many books in this podcast and i keep lists of them on bookshop.org and i put

00:55:20.400 together a list of like recommended reads or like a gift guide or whatever like books that are

00:55:25.500 actively in print that I think would be good to get well that I think that any history fan would

00:55:33.360 enjoy but especially fans of vulgar history so anyway I put a link to that in the show notes

00:55:37.040 it's at bookshop.org slash shop slash vulgar history and if you click through that link

00:55:43.020 that's in the show notes or buy things from that shop then a little bit of money goes to support

00:55:47.680 this podcast as well which is like a little Christmas present for me and then yeah I have

00:55:53.920 Patreon at patreon.com slash Anne Foster Writer. So that's where for a dollar or more a month,

00:55:59.460 you get early access to new episodes as well as you get ad free episodes. And then if you pledge

00:56:06.220 at least $5 or more a month, then you get access to the spin-off podcasts. So that's, so this

00:56:11.020 asshole where I talk about men from history, some mostly terrible men, some of them are surprisingly 0.99

00:56:16.520 okay. Like Alexander the Great, not the worst. And then also there is vulgar peace theater where 0.97

00:56:23.460 I'm joined by Alison Epstein and Lana Wood Johnson.

00:56:25.460 And we talk about costume dramas for like these episodes.

00:56:29.600 I do like the three of us do.

00:56:31.120 They're like three hours long.

00:56:32.500 Like we get into it.

00:56:33.480 Each episode, I think without fail is in fact longer than the movie being discussed.

00:56:38.060 So if you just want to hear us just chatting, that's where you can find that.

00:56:42.180 Anyway, and then again, I've put links in the show notes to some organizations to that

00:56:47.800 you can read up on.

00:56:49.240 and if you want to find ways to support the protests in Iran. 0.99

00:56:54.000 And until next time, keep your pants on and your tits out. 0.99

00:56:58.600 Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Anne Foster 0.99

00:57:01.580 and edited by Christina Lumagi.

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Vulgar History - November 23, 2022

International, part 36： Ancient Iranian Warrior Queen Artemisia I of Caria

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