Vulgar History - Mary Queen of Scots： Bonus： The A Scottish Witch Who Didn't Burn

00:00:00.000 hello and welcome to vulgar history of feminist women's history comedy podcast my name is ann

00:00:17.000 foster and before we get going i just wanted to share something with you and this is adapted

00:00:22.500 from a statement from jesse who does the jesse's girl podcast which i really recommend um he talks

00:00:28.120 about his favorite girl groups and it's a really fun time. Anyway, he posted this and it really

00:00:32.260 resonated with me and it really said what I was hoping to communicate to all of you, which is

00:00:37.120 basically just I want to acknowledge the immense privilege that I have to be able to record this

00:00:41.740 podcast in the midst of global turmoil. The aim of releasing any sort of content right now is to

00:00:47.140 provide some fun and some joy to be a refuge slash escape for anyone listening anywhere in the world

00:00:53.480 as I know that there are listeners all over the place, including places that are being very

00:00:57.380 profoundly affected right now by global events. And I hope that you know that my thoughts are

00:01:02.020 with all of you and all of your loved ones and everyone you care about. And I know and trust

00:01:06.540 that the Tits Out Brigade are always engaging civically, thinking critically, and leading with

00:01:11.400 empathy. And I'm really grateful for all of you. And I just really wanted to clarify that I hope

00:01:18.220 that this podcast is a nice bomb for you, B-A-L-M, to just sort of vibe out and have a nice Tits Out 1.00

00:01:26.380 time. With that being said, today's episode is our, I was going to say annual Halloween 1.00

00:01:33.020 spooktacular, but I was looking through past episodes and I'm like, oh, I don't think we,

00:01:37.340 last year the international season was so intense. We didn't even get to do a Halloween special. So

00:01:42.160 this is this year's Halloween special, comma arriving on November 1st, except for people

00:01:47.640 on Patreon who get it several days early. But anyway, I was like, okay, I want to do a Halloween

00:01:51.840 super special and i also wanted to just like bring fun vibes and a nice story and so the sort

00:01:58.760 of halloween spooky adjacent things we've talked about before on the podcast are people are people

00:02:03.600 who are being covered by other wonderful history podcasts right now are people like elizabeth

00:02:07.380 bathory who you know there were these rumors that she was this vampire or whatever she wasn't she

00:02:12.860 was a victim of the patriarchy there's other people there's witches like love was that like

00:02:18.140 basically there's the Salem witch trials. Some people have suggested, you know, should, could

00:02:22.320 there be a vulgar history podcast about that? There's, if you listen to the interview I did

00:02:26.040 with Heather Redmond, where she reveals to all of you that there was one of the victims from Andover

00:02:32.260 during the Salem witch trials scenario was named Ann Foster. So I've always thought like, should I

00:02:37.160 do an episode about Ann Foster? But those stories aren't fun in the way that I want this podcast

00:02:42.140 as much as possible to be a good time for you and to share stories that I don't want to tell

00:02:47.920 story about like some woman or person or anyone who was just like victimized by powerful men and

00:02:53.680 then executed. I was just like, okay, who can I talk about? I've done Mary Shelley. I've done

00:02:57.580 Elizabeth Woodville. Like who's someone else witch, witchy whose story doesn't end with them 0.55

00:03:02.320 being killed. And here's the thing. Okay. It all came together so beautifully. So one of my 0.99

00:03:06.900 neighbors has one of those signs up. Like I have several neighbors who go all out for Halloween

00:03:11.620 decorations, which I love. I love that Halloween decorations have become such a thing in the last,

00:03:16.180 10 years or so. It's great. And she's one of those signs that says, we are the descendants

00:03:21.960 of the witches that you failed to burn or whatever, which is interesting. And I'll put a link to this

00:03:27.020 article in the show notes to this if you're in the academic era. I want to read this. But a

00:03:32.400 historian named Eleanor Janega posted a blog about how that is like her pet peeve, how that phrase,

00:03:37.160 she finds it. And it is like, it's very dismissive of the actual people who were killed during the

00:03:42.260 witch trials who were generally not witches. They were just victims of people who wanted

00:03:47.720 their property or whatever bullshit was going on anyway. So it's like the descendants, like 0.91

00:03:52.580 we're the descendants of the people who burned those people, but also those people were mostly

00:03:57.560 hanged anyway. But then I was like, wait a minute, but there is, there is one witch who famously was

00:04:03.720 not burned. And we talked about her in the Mary Queen of Scots season, which is why this is the

00:04:07.260 Halloween special slash bonus follow-up to the Mary Queen of Scots season, because we're talking

00:04:11.660 about, the one and only Margaret Fleming, who was the older sister of Mary Fleming from the

00:04:17.340 Four Marys. She was present during the birth of Mary Queen of Scots' son, James, baby BJ,

00:04:24.220 avenge me, oh Lord, et cetera. And she was there in a witch-like way. And I'm pretty sure that's 0.89

00:04:31.880 part of why she was never, that's part of why we get into it in this episode, why she was never

00:04:36.560 prosecuted for witchcraft because James's sort of paternity was always in question. There was

00:04:42.600 the whole thing about like, was Rizzio the father or whatever? So he couldn't afford to get rid of

00:04:46.960 a person who had been present at his birth because she was like a witness to it all. 0.83

00:04:51.040 So she was just like being a witch her whole life, just like, we're going to talk about all 0.91

00:04:55.300 the stuff she got up to. And I really want to say that this all came to my attention because 0.82

00:05:00.140 of a member of the Titswood Brigade, who we do mention in this episode, who is a descendant

00:05:04.860 of Margaret Fleming. And so like this, this listener is, and any other descendants, I guess,

00:05:10.200 of Margaret Fleming are the only people who I think who literally are able to use a mug or

00:05:15.800 wear a sweatshirt that says descendant of the witch you failed to burn. Because in fact,

00:05:20.520 they are because Margaret Fleming was, whether there was like magic involved or not, she was

00:05:24.840 fully a witch and she thrived and did amazing. And that's what we're going to talk about today.

00:05:30.020 And my guest is Lucy Hinney. And we talk about this in the episode too. I'm just like really

00:05:35.360 priming you for what you're here. So a couple of things about Lucy. First of all, she's great.

00:05:40.320 Secondly, she's Scottish. And thirdly, she lived for a short amount of time in my city in Saskatoon

00:05:45.600 because she was doing some work at the University of Saskatchewan, the U of S, which is in the city

00:05:50.840 of Saskatoon, which is how I met Lucy because she was giving a public talk about Mary Queen of Scots.

00:05:55.560 And I'm just like, well, that's not a thing that happens much here in Saskatoon. That was like

00:05:59.720 before I even started the podcast,

00:06:01.360 before this was a dream glint in my eye.

00:06:03.980 And so we've stayed in touch.

00:06:05.460 And I was really excited when I was looking up

00:06:07.820 information about Margaret Fleming

00:06:09.200 that it seemed to coincide with some of the work

00:06:11.200 that Lucy's been doing on manuscripts from that era.

00:06:13.740 Anyway, so it's so great to talk to her.

00:06:15.200 I know you're gonna love hearing from her.

00:06:16.860 So please enjoy this talk,

00:06:18.380 this Halloween special slash Mary Queen of Scots bonus episode

00:06:21.860 about the witchy ways of Margaret Fleming.

00:06:29.720 okay so very excitingly i'm joined by lucy hinney who is the first person i've ever had

00:06:37.660 on this podcast who i've met in real life amazing yeah in fact i will let the listeners know that

00:06:45.820 right now i'm sitting at a table an ikea table that actually i bought from lucy when she moved

00:06:51.460 out of saskatoon i did i it's a i think my partner peter actually painted that table as well we were

00:06:57.860 talking about it today he's like I'm sure I painted that in summer I'm like yep yep you did

00:07:01.880 yeah yeah it's sort of it's got like a dark dark brown stain anyway that is where that's my main

00:07:07.680 table I use this is where I record everything so nobody knows but Lucy you're here I've been a part

00:07:13.920 of this of all this this whole time exactly and so you're joining me today this is it's actually

00:07:20.960 technically coming out on November 1st but it's our Halloween special and when I was looking for

00:07:27.360 someone to talk about for that, because the last couple of years I've done a Halloween special and

00:07:31.320 I was like, okay, but I don't want it to be a bummer. And when you're looking at anyone who's

00:07:36.980 accused of witchcraft, generally the stories end in the same bummer way of their execution, right?

00:07:44.560 I'm just like, but that's not what I want. I'm like, surely, you know that? Actually,

00:07:49.000 my neighbor has one of these signs up. It's like, we're the descendants of the witches you couldn't

00:07:53.460 burn. Yeah. Yup. Yeah. Actually, Eleanor Janega, who's a historian, she just posted a blog post

00:08:02.240 where she was just being like this. It's her pet peeve. She hates that phrase. And she was

00:08:05.460 explaining why it's so disrespectful to the people who were killed. Anyway, but I was like,

00:08:10.880 are there people who were there witches who weren't burned? And in fact, there's this one.

00:08:17.580 And in fact, then when I was going back through my stuff, I realized that it was,

00:08:21.680 she's brought to my attention first by one of her descendants who's a woman named Miranda so thank

00:08:26.440 you Miranda for bringing Margaret Fleming to my attention and Miranda herself says she has bought

00:08:31.180 some of that merch that says the descendant of witches you couldn't burn and I was like Miranda

00:08:35.240 you can wear that yes other people know but if you're verified Margaret Fleming like yes yes

00:08:42.440 which is I couldn't burn yes I agree I think that is legit definitely yeah that is the one person

00:08:49.920 who if you're descended from that statement is true because this is her whole thing and I talked

00:08:53.900 about her a bit when I was doing an episode about the four Marys because she's a sister of one of

00:08:58.140 the four Marys but Lucy can you explain your connection to where you've heard of her where

00:09:04.060 you've encountered her? Absolutely so I did my PhD research on a manuscript from the 16th century

00:09:11.420 called the Banatine Manuscript so it dates roughly from the 15 from 1568 it was compiled by

00:09:18.980 a young man i mean he i sound old but he was only 23 when he did it called george bannatyne

00:09:24.660 who was a young edinburgh burgess from a good family and the reason he compiled it or the

00:09:31.420 context in which he compiled it is that at that point edinburgh was hit very badly with the plague

00:09:36.580 it had sort of rolling incidences of the plague over the 16th and 17th centuries but this was

00:09:41.620 quite a bad one so bannatine was cast out of the city to quarantine with his family essentially

00:09:49.380 we think they probably owned land on the outskirts of the city so he had three months of nothing to do

00:09:55.760 and he compiled this manuscript which is like over 400 poems um that otherwise may not have been

00:10:03.480 i would say maybe about a quarter of them are poems that exist elsewhere um a lot of the others

00:10:10.560 that were like the only witness to a poem or the only example that we have of a particular one

00:10:14.860 and what's really cool about his manuscript is that he he divides it up into five little

00:10:19.760 sections so he has theology morality comedy love and fables and usually with manuscript

00:10:28.100 miscellanies from the late medieval and earlier it really is miscellaneous it's like there's

00:10:33.180 medical texts there's like love poems there's like dirty limericks there's all this stuff

00:10:37.620 together but Banatine is quite like these are my chapters these are my headings this is where

00:10:42.100 everything's going and what's interesting about the manuscript is because 1568 he's really keen

00:10:48.660 for people to think that it is finished in 1568 it's written in a couple of places in the manuscript

00:10:54.040 as like other dates are crossed out and 1568 is written there and he does this cute little poem

00:10:59.260 at the end where he's like and it was completed in the year 1568 and a lot of critics argue and

00:11:05.180 I tend to agree that the reason he's keen on that date is because the poem actually might have

00:11:10.640 started life as a collection of love poems for Mary Queen of Scots and Darnley when they got

00:11:15.180 married but obviously as listeners know that relationship went downhill pretty fast and all

00:11:21.020 of a sudden Banatine's like I have this collection of poems that I can't really publicize anymore

00:11:27.020 because they are love poems for a marriage that is irrevocably broken she might have murdered him

00:11:32.840 and nobody wants to talk about her anymore because essentially we all hate her so he then kind of

00:11:37.820 pads out and creates this big collection so that's one theory that i quite like so the influence of

00:11:43.780 mary and people connected with mary like margaret fleming on the manuscript is quite interesting

00:11:48.680 because like mary's not really mentioned the love section is very concerned with like talking

00:11:55.340 essentially about why women are terrible it has like a game attempt at trying to like level it

00:12:00.860 out there's like one tiny section that's about false vicious men there's about under 10 poems

00:12:06.020 in it and the rest are all just essentially women are terrible and it's it's very much connected to

00:12:10.760 that um i think the french call it the the curl de femme which is like this argument about women

00:12:15.840 whether they're worth anything whether they're good or not so bannatine's engaging quite strongly

00:12:21.340 with that and um in the comedy section there are three poems that deal with specific named women

00:12:28.880 and the specific named women that get are the subject of really quite vicious satirical poems 1.00

00:12:35.580 are a woman called it's written giannett reed but it would be janet reed chrysal sandals or

00:12:42.000 sandalins it's kind of one of those names that is translated in different ways and margaret

00:12:47.120 fleming who gets an absolute horrific poem written about her by a poet called robert semple who was

00:12:54.420 virulently anti-Catholic very anti-Mary and the poem is called I Have a Little Fleming Burge which

00:13:01.980 essentially means I have a little Fleming ship and the poem is ostensibly about this ship and

00:13:06.980 the ship is like leaky loads of sailors have been on it it's not very reliable it needs a good man

00:13:13.640 to look after it and it's essentially a really vicious attack on Margaret Fleming for the I think

00:13:20.340 for the main reason that she's associated with mary and semple i mean he really loves really

00:13:27.660 loves getting stuck into these women it's largely anti-catholic and there's this collection of his

00:13:34.640 work is included in a poem a set of poems called satirical poems of the reformation which comes

00:13:41.040 out in 1891 um edited by a man called cranston of the 48 poems in this collection 12 of them are by

00:13:49.200 simple and he contributes these three poems they're collected in the banatine cranston notes

00:13:54.480 that these poems probably would have been circulated around about the time that mary was in disgrace

00:13:59.720 so they would have been circulated in the form of like pamphlets sort of thing yeah by chapman

00:14:05.600 and peddlers so like chapbooks so like yeah we kind of pamphlet-y chapbook things that would

00:14:11.860 have been passed out similar to what john knox would have used to get his anti-mary sentiments

00:14:17.540 around what i was gonna say was also just the there's this does remind me quite a bit of john 0.97

00:14:22.580 knox's whole vibe the whole like women are terrible we hate mary catholics are awful so just that

00:14:28.340 do you know of any connection or was that like it sounds like every man in edinburgh went to 0.90

00:14:33.500 john knox's like incel live podcast recordings 100 i think um there's a parallel that like i

00:14:42.020 will definitely draw on vulgar history which is like i think we look back on the reformation and

00:14:47.300 we think like everyone suddenly went from being catholic to being protestant and there was

00:14:52.480 definitely a large part of that religious reformation what's really interesting about

00:14:56.980 banatine's audience is there were probably still a couple of like fairly well-known families that

00:15:01.960 remained catholic or had catholic sympathies but they they would have kept it quieter i don't know

00:15:07.000 it's sort of like in the 1930s where you know families like the mitford's and some of the high

00:15:12.320 society families would dabble in like risky things like fascism they'd be like oh well actually well

00:15:17.460 actually the mitfords went fully in for that like some of them did and then the others went to

00:15:21.240 communism so i think there was a bit of kind of people dabbling in sort of extremes of both

00:15:29.380 religions in terms of john knox john knox as you as you well know like famously hates mary and it's

00:15:35.840 i've just i've just been writing about the two of them actually for my book about the kind of

00:15:40.560 antipathy between the two of them and i think someone like semple cranston characterizes him

00:15:45.400 i thought this was a really good quote as a vigorous supporter of the cause of the reformation

00:15:50.300 who fought its battles with a willing and unsparing pen so he's like a john knox fanboy i would say

00:15:56.220 he's going he's agreeing with it he's like i'm going to take what you're saying and go further

00:16:00.880 and talk about just how terrible this woman is and i think that's something that he takes

00:16:06.540 real pleasure in so he's like absorbing what Knox is saying and thinking yeah and you know what I'm

00:16:12.380 going to make it even better because I'm going to write innuendo laden poems about it that people

00:16:18.260 are going to think are hilarious whether or not they did I don't know I don't know what the

00:16:22.240 reception was but I mean it's it's pretty filthy like there's a lot in it like it's the first if

00:16:30.560 the first stanza it starts um it's about 10 stanzas long so I won't read the whole thing

00:16:36.040 but the first stanza reads

00:16:37.680 and this is in older Scots

00:16:38.940 which I have no idea

00:16:40.100 if how I pronounce it is correct

00:16:41.540 but I will do my best

00:16:42.480 so it starts with

00:16:43.420 So what that means is

00:17:02.760 I have a little ship 1.00

00:17:04.600 she's made of riveted work but she's strong what helmsman takes control of the ship he needs to 1.00

00:17:10.860 hold her cleanly trim and tight and see that he handles her hatches right on her starboard larboard

00:17:17.520 lovingly and she will sail all the winter night never pitching over so it's about men handling

00:17:23.620 a ship properly and then in like stanza three it goes fully like you can tell a man wrote this it's

00:17:30.720 like you can see to calcet her oft can do non ill and talon where the flood mark flows but give

00:17:37.340 she lex get men of skill to stop her holes like in the house for fault of hemp tak hairy taus 1.00

00:17:43.840 with stone ballast with oot and ooter in monless nex it is now mues except in stout man steer her 1.00

00:17:50.280 and this is like bull innuendo to cock her often can do no harm mark with talo where the flood mark 1.00

00:17:57.620 flows but if she leaks get men of skill to stop her holes leaking flap in the house if there is 1.00

00:18:03.500 a defect of hemp take hairy toes with stone ballast penis i'm sorry uh without other in a 0.55

00:18:09.800 moonless night it is no sport to steer her rudder unless you are a stout man so there's a lot in 0.67

00:18:14.960 this poem about plugging up holes it's like it's not subtle it's all about this often at this point

00:18:21.720 women are seen as being like inconstant or unreliable and it's actually a professor from

00:18:27.760 U of S David Parkinson who was who I was working with when I was in Saskatoon he's written about

00:18:32.680 this poem and he's like you know the unreliable leaky vessel of women and as far as we know you

00:18:38.380 know Margaret Fleming her crime in Robert Semple's eyes was like being in Mary's circle like that was

00:18:45.260 it it's just three women who happened to be near her which is really interesting well and also the

00:18:50.520 fact like this is who he chose like there's he didn't choose one of the four marys maybe because

00:18:54.520 they their husbands were more influential or something but he just chose this random woman

00:18:59.540 he didn't choose mary herself he's just kind of like okay i've got this hilarious idea for a poem

00:19:04.500 about women as a ship and he just like randomly chose a name it seems like yeah he's just like

00:19:10.640 who's in that social strata that i can poke fun at and it's just i mean i couldn't believe it the

00:19:18.040 first time I read it I was like are you kidding me I thought Margaret Fleming must not be a real

00:19:21.620 person and then I looked up and I'm like oh no this is real and the fact that Banatine's including

00:19:26.520 it he's an interesting editor because he's not even though I would say that the collection is

00:19:32.720 quite it's adapted to to not be a pro-Mary collection because that would be like career

00:19:38.720 death at that point would be like hey here's my collection of poems that are really all about how

00:19:43.460 great mary is but it's not like overtly anti-catholic it's not like a a john knox approved

00:19:50.140 richard and judy book club thing um sorry richard and judy are like two morning tv presenters in the

00:19:55.180 uk and they like stamp because it's like the oprah book club um so it's not the john knox book club

00:20:00.440 but he's these are included as like just funny poems like these three really vicious attacks

00:20:06.960 on these specific women and i'm like it wouldn't be like bannatine to take a massive risk so they

00:20:12.000 must be widely circulated funny poems that people like so it's very strange yeah so I put together

00:20:20.440 some information about the actual Margaret Fleming herself which I would love to know more about her

00:20:26.180 I'm so psyched about this here's the thing the the most I first heard about her from Miranda

00:20:31.700 who is this descendant of her that's incredible but then and I was like what like she told me

00:20:38.620 some details that we're going to get into. And then I was like, I want to learn more about her.

00:20:42.280 And I have a couple of books. I'll say what my sources are. There's the two books I got,

00:20:47.520 they're academic books. And there's like one sentence in each one about her, but I'll just

00:20:50.840 cite them just because. So Queen Mary, because it's a great title, Queen Mary's Women, Female

00:20:56.180 Relatives, Servants, Friends, and Enemies of Mary, Queen of Scots by Rosalind K. Marshall.

00:21:01.540 Oh, Rosalind Marshall's great.

00:21:02.940 oh yeah yeah it's it's a great book about various people and then there's a book called

00:21:09.140 the scottish witch hunt in context edited by julian good air okay so two books that i i got

00:21:16.800 a bit of information from but i got honestly most of my information from both wikipedia

00:21:20.820 and a site called wiki wiki tree which is like for genealogists like the people out there doing

00:21:26.180 the work are like people researching their own family trees that's so genealogists are incredible

00:21:33.080 I work I work for wiki now which is like my non-academic job is I work for wiki and often

00:21:38.760 we work with like local history groups and genealogy groups they're incredible the amount

00:21:43.480 of information they have is unreal yeah I was talking last week the listeners will have heard

00:21:48.820 it last week I think with um John Guy and Julia Fox who just wrote a new biography of Anne Boleyn

00:21:54.060 Oh, incredible.

00:21:55.440 And they were saying, and they, in this book, which is really good, even if you are like,

00:21:59.400 oh, I know the story of Anne Boleyn.

00:22:00.260 It's like, no, you don't.

00:22:01.120 Because they got new sources that no one has ever written about before.

00:22:05.500 And a lot of it was from these local genealogy groups, like from local historical societies.

00:22:09.040 Like they went and they found these letters and journals that no one's ever found before.

00:22:12.820 But these groups, like these people, my impression is just the UK is just full of these like

00:22:21.220 little small towns where people have these like little gems of information and they put it all

00:22:26.360 together. Yeah. So here's what we know about Margaret Fleming and her last name is Fleming.

00:22:31.200 She was the older sister of Mary Fleming from the four Marys. She's quite a bit older. She's

00:22:35.760 14 years older than Mary Fleming. Here's, I don't know if you have the Google document in front of

00:22:40.800 you, Lucy, but I'm going to try and say some Scottish place names and you can correct me.

00:22:45.940 so she was born probably around 1528 around 14 years before mary fleming and mary queen of scots

00:22:52.060 she's born in bog hall castle bigger lanarkshire scotland yeah all good in fact there's a bigger

00:23:00.460 there's a bigger saskatchewan as well i believe yeah there is and the the tagline of it is

00:23:05.780 something like um new york city is big but we're bigger i love that that's amazing bigger saskatchewan

00:23:13.900 okay so her mother was janet stewart and i'm gonna like hold pause janet stewart um who was

00:23:20.940 the woman who was the um the governess of mary queen of scots and then she went over and had the

00:23:26.300 illegitimate child with the french king i think that is correct yeah yeah yeah so she's like quite

00:23:32.580 a cool interesting person herself and so janet stewart was a daughter of james the fourth of

00:23:38.080 scotland so all of the scottish jameses up to james the first slash six had so many illegitimate

00:23:48.740 children like ludicrous numbers ludicrous like every other person in scotland from what i can

00:23:55.180 tell from reading had the surname stewart and was the illegitimate child of a king whose name was

00:24:00.740 james so but this gives this family and this gives janet because the scottish thing different from

00:24:06.680 other countries was he would recognize these illegitimate children and they would get

00:24:11.680 titles and things so she this was like a noble family because she was the illegitimate yeah it

00:24:17.060 was way less of a like game of thrones i think has given us this idea that like illegitimates were

00:24:22.180 like the the spawn of the dead but like honestly like one of mary queen of scott's closest kind

00:24:26.880 of advisors was an illegitimate brother like a half brother yeah no they were all um yeah her

00:24:32.340 brother i don't know how much the podcast you've heard but um james stewart um who we call on my

00:24:37.520 podcast hollywood icon jimmy stewart excellent excellent to differentiate him from the 75 other

00:24:45.160 men called james stewart in that it's so frustrating like honestly any family tree in scotland you're

00:24:50.720 like oh good another john oh good another james oh a robert wonderful and then all the women are

00:24:56.220 called janet yes for me researching this like the amount of notes i have anyway that's why i gave

00:25:04.140 everybody a nickname but janet stewart she was great so she went over with mary queen of scotch 0.90

00:25:07.820 she was the governess she had an affair with the king that got found out she was kicked back to

00:25:13.160 scotland anyway so margaret she also had legitimate children janet stewart um her husband was malcolm

00:25:19.480 Fleming, the third Lord Fleming. And so Margaret, well, we'll go through the saga. So Margaret

00:25:27.160 Fleming. So in 1545, she married her first husband. So this would be, she was like just a

00:25:32.680 bit less than 20. So it's one of those arranged young people, family alliance type marriages.

00:25:39.100 She married her first husband, Robert Graham, the master of Montrose. And then he died in the

00:25:44.220 battle of pinky clue which is a real thing the battle of pinky i always that always cracked me

00:25:50.440 up thank you because it always cracks me up and it's talked about very seriously because

00:25:55.040 a lot of people died can you remind everybody which battle that was oh the battle of pinky

00:26:00.120 you know and you might be better placed on this than i am it was very important in

00:26:05.760 mayor queen of scots story is marie de guise war i think yeah um and it kind of i think it sort of

00:26:14.480 sits at the start of when people are getting really unsettled about the prospect of mayor

00:26:18.180 queen of scots it's sort of quite pretentious in that way and it's called the battle of pinky

00:26:22.800 which just always cracks me up this was the last pitched battle between this i'm looking at

00:26:28.820 wikipedia i love that you work for them because like i respect them and i use them as a source

00:26:32.760 and i have no problem with it so anyway it's the last pitch battle between scotland and england

00:26:37.440 it was part of the the rough wooing that's it the rough wing which is when henry the eighth

00:26:42.860 is trying to to get baby mary queen of scots married to his son yeah and it's interesting

00:26:48.280 because i now live in york in england and in the rough wooing henry the eighth he decimates like

00:26:54.820 lots of land throughout the country but york remains relatively untouched because essentially

00:26:59.600 because henry is like oh i can go there on holiday i quite like that so like king's manor

00:27:04.000 in york is intact because henry's like oh yeah i'll use it as a holiday home which i just find

00:27:09.500 that i'm like imagine having that bde where you're just like yeah i'll just keep it as a holiday home

00:27:13.740 but um a lot of history from that time in scotland is lost in the rough wing because

00:27:19.820 cathedrals and so on are ransacked or damaged beyond repair because of henry's tactics and

00:27:25.780 Yeah, Battle of Pinkies sits in the heart of that at this point

00:27:29.000 where Henry's really aggressively throwing his power around

00:27:31.680 and trying to secure that match, which would solve problems for him.

00:27:36.240 Oh yeah, no, for sure. 0.85

00:27:37.520 I was just going to say, I think the Battle of Pinkies,

00:27:39.300 I know I came across a lot of backstories of a lot of the people I talked about.

00:27:42.480 I think a lot of people's dads died in the battle.

00:27:45.480 Like I think the four Marys, some of their fathers died in this battle.

00:27:49.380 So it says here that this was a catastrophic defeat for Scotland

00:27:52.820 where it became known as Black Saturday.

00:27:55.780 and it's it's interesting because in 1513 there's the battle of flodden which is similar in fact i

00:28:03.300 think one of the jameses dies at that battle where it essentially wipes out a whole generation of

00:28:09.180 nobility so they've kind of just sort of generationally recovered from that and then

00:28:13.880 the battle of pinky happens and it's sort of like history repeating itself um yeah in terms of like

00:28:18.500 you say loss of fathers and husbands and men in their lives yeah so this is so margaret's father

00:28:26.140 janet's husband dies in this battle which is like a lot i don't know it reminds me of like world war

00:28:30.880 one or something where it's just like a generation of young men just kind of all die yeah and then

00:28:36.260 so that is why janet is single and ready to mingle with the king of france one year later anyway so

00:28:42.500 margaret fleming 14 years older than mary fleming so when she's getting married at around the same

00:28:47.320 time that mary queen of scots is being born so it's like kind of a generation earlier but not

00:28:51.860 quite a generation anyway so she got married and then he died two years later in the battle of

00:28:56.720 pinky margaret's father also died in the battle of pinky her brother-in-law died like every man

00:29:01.920 in scotland died basically but she did give birth to a son before i think he died and then she gave

00:29:08.480 birth so it's a bit of a margaret beaufort situation in the sense of like you're a teen

00:29:13.960 widow giving birth to the baby of your dead husband so she had numerous children honestly

00:29:19.360 none of them matter except for that one of them is miranda's ancestor so they matter in terms of 0.98

00:29:25.560 our story in halloween and the witchiness of it all she had various children so then she next

00:29:31.160 married thomas erskine is that still a popular last name in scotland erskine um i don't know

00:29:37.840 many but we have the erskine bridge is one of the main ways you can cross over uh into edinburgh

00:29:43.120 from Perthshire so there's Erskine Bridge and there's a place called Erskine no sorry the

00:29:46.980 Erskine Bridge that's absolute nonsense the Erskine Bridge is near Glasgow and there's a

00:29:50.760 river Erskine as well so it's it's around it's not the most popular I mean you'd still get

00:29:55.340 Stewart's and Graham's but Erskine not so much so her second husband was Thomas Erskine's they

00:30:00.620 were married let me see so she's married 1545 two years later so she married two years after

00:30:06.120 the death of her first husband she married thomas erskine um in earth in erskine

00:30:11.800 thomas erskine of erskine midlothian her dowry was paid by marie de guise so i think because of

00:30:23.660 the the fleming connection to the stewarts would be my guess um because so god okay all the king

00:30:31.720 james so marie de guise was married to james the fifth yep fifth yeah um so if janet stewart

00:30:44.040 was the daughter of james the four anyway they're related they're through the stewarts they're

00:30:49.060 related it's like fee fee incest well not incest but it's like incestuous at this point

00:30:54.640 like everyone's related in some way everyone's really i think marie de guise like us i think 0.65

00:30:59.260 she'd just be like goddamn another steward illegitimate okay i'll pay the dowry whatever

00:31:03.260 who is this i don't know anyway but that that just shows the family's connection which is also 0.91

00:31:08.400 what's interesting about her having this poem making fun of her so maybe that's part of why

00:31:11.880 she was chosen she was connected to mary but she also had the steward lineage so it's a way to make

00:31:16.460 fun of mary without making fun of mary like because she had the steward yeah anyway so then

00:31:23.020 she married thomas erskine and then i'm not sure what happened well he died clearly because then

00:31:28.640 she married john stewart another one another one brackets no relation brackets some relation

00:31:37.360 yeah the fourth earl of athol that's the word how do you say that athol yeah athol okay this is this

00:31:44.740 is her surname she becomes best known as yeah so they were married this was 1557 so she's born

00:31:52.100 god okay so she's she's like 29 wow she's like 29 on her third husband that is incredible

00:32:00.760 yeah and i i don't know kind of par for the course i would think for scottish women just

00:32:07.840 in terms of how many battles all the men are being doing okay let me just see so then we skip ahead

00:32:14.620 so 1557 she's married she's so he's the earl of athole which makes her the something the countess

00:32:21.180 countess yeah yeah the countess of athole so this one sticks she's she doesn't marry again

00:32:28.720 so now the years go by so about 10 years later james mary queen of scott's son james is born

00:32:35.020 excellent yeah and this is where margaret fleming comes on the scene in a big way okay so this is

00:32:41.500 where so you wrote a note here so richard bannatyne a secretary of john knox recorded a

00:32:48.900 story about her and i was like oh the bannatine manuscript but this is not the bannatine manuscript

00:32:53.800 it's not the same one so i i went and looked at this and again everyone's got the same bloody

00:32:59.800 names um but i had to look it's mostly regarded that he's a relation of george bannatine but it's

00:33:06.220 not 100 clear what that relationship is i think it's likely that they're cousins they're definitely

00:33:12.480 not brothers from what i can tell so there is the banatines are they're a high-flying family at this

00:33:20.300 point they tend to be like lawyers secretaries educated men so they definitely would have been

00:33:26.140 related in some way i think but it's not a close familial relationship in the sense of it's not a

00:33:32.920 brother or father son situation as far as i can tell i need to go and double check that because

00:33:38.200 he writes and you're quite right he writes the banatine memorials so it could it could be his

00:33:46.420 father but i would need to go and double check that it's certainly not his brother and it's

00:33:50.340 certainly not george banatine himself and there's a little bit of distance there but the family is

00:33:55.620 in common what's hilarious about that is that when i was reading this stuff about margaret

00:34:01.320 fleming i'm like okay i'm gonna do this episode i came across the name banaton i said banaton he

00:34:05.100 wrote some stuff i'm like oh lucy this must be the thing that she studied and is not even but

00:34:13.000 yeah i'm looking at the clan bannatine page because apparently they're a clan um which i

00:34:19.100 find really funny i don't i don't know much about the kind of clan terminology um so george bannatine

00:34:25.420 is listed he's 14 1545 to 1608 um and richard bannatine dies in 1605 so that makes me think

00:34:34.780 that it's probably not his dad unless his dad lived to a good old age um there will definitely

00:34:41.360 be an in-depth genealogy of this somewhere i'm just having another quick look at the national

00:34:46.840 archives as well you know those things where you're like i really should like know more about

00:34:51.780 this than i actually do and knowing who banatine's relationships are because i'm one of the things

00:34:57.720 i've been doing lately which is a cute little it's not cute actually some of the stuff and it's quite

00:35:02.220 horrifying um is looking at the links between the bannertine manuscript and essentially colonial

00:35:09.640 history and who held the manuscript because it's one of the reasons that it stands out so much

00:35:14.420 is because it didn't get lost we always knew where it was we always knew who had it

00:35:19.960 and it ended up in the advocates library in the 18th century and almost everyone who held

00:35:26.440 the manuscript ends up being connected to like the bank of scotland in its early days or the

00:35:33.220 baronets of nova scotia which is quite interesting in the sense that this is a group of people a

00:35:38.860 group of links that tie in with most of scotland's overseas interests that then end up being awful

00:35:47.060 endeavors that cost a lot of human lives but there's this coterie of people back in scotland

00:35:52.360 just passing around this manuscript and sort of looking at it saying aren't these jolly stories

00:35:57.080 and it's um yeah it's it's a strange thing to think about thinking about where it physically was

00:36:01.740 so in short yeah richard a relation of some kind accounts vary on which certainly for me it seems

00:36:10.620 likely that they were cousins it could have been his father but the date of death makes me think

00:36:15.880 it might not have been as simple as that. The one person who has written extensively on the

00:36:22.220 memorial book of Banatine is an academic called Theo van Heinsbergen, who was my master supervisor.

00:36:29.360 He did a really interesting book, a really interesting study of a lot of the people we're

00:36:36.480 talking about today and the Banatine called the prosopographical context of the Banatine

00:36:43.120 manuscript um which looks at both the manuscript and the memorials so i'm just having a wee look

00:36:50.960 here it is important to note though that george bannatyne's mother gave birth to 22 other children

00:36:56.720 george bannatyne was one of 23 jesus which is absolutely wild so i mean it could be that he

00:37:03.520 was his brother but just by a far distance i'm just having a quick scan of some of the other

00:37:09.940 uh biographical information here 22 that's like i mean she must have just been consistently

00:37:15.260 pregnant the dugger like oh my gosh awful and bannertine's uncle um and his cousin

00:37:22.800 both died at the battle of pinky i'm just looking to see if teo um mentions richard at all um

00:37:30.920 because it's just not a name that comes up yeah that frequently i'm just gonna have a quick check

00:37:36.760 because I don't want to be quoted as saying

00:37:38.580 it's absolutely definitely not his father or brother.

00:37:42.000 And then it turns out it's definitely not his father

00:37:44.200 because his father's name is,

00:37:46.000 it's going to be John or James, isn't it?

00:37:48.180 Like there's no other names in Scotland

00:37:49.680 at this point in history.

00:37:51.460 Dev, that's a challenge to have 22 children

00:37:53.500 in Scotland in this era.

00:37:54.840 How do you think of 22 different names?

00:37:56.440 There aren't 22 different names.

00:37:58.100 Honestly, it must have just been like

00:37:59.800 a heck of a lot of James,

00:38:01.260 like James 1, James 2, James 3, James 4.

00:38:06.760 But I believe his father was also a James.

00:38:09.220 I'm just having a look to see George's mother.

00:38:12.140 Yeah, it's interesting.

00:38:13.460 So if I had to put money on it

00:38:15.780 without going deep into the genealogical annals,

00:38:18.880 I would guess that it is at closest a younger sibling,

00:38:24.900 but I think it is much more likely that it's a cousin.

00:38:28.400 George's father, James, was part of the Bannatyne dynasty.

00:38:33.380 And as we know from records from the Battle of Pinky,

00:38:36.000 there were other Banatines in that generation so it would surprise me if they'd never met one

00:38:41.480 another I think they would be familiar I think there would be family connections but I don't

00:38:46.520 think they would necessarily be siblings but it's interesting because the manuscript is so well

00:38:51.360 known that Banatine is this connection to Mary as well at Mary and to to Margaret yeah it's there's

00:38:59.340 just so many people and so many connections at this point that it becomes like a very confusing

00:39:05.580 agatha christie it really does can i tell you just in terms of everyone being called james

00:39:11.240 so i'm going to be later today recording this youtube live discussion of the mary queen of

00:39:16.700 scots movie the saoirse ronan one from 2018 did did you did you see that yeah i have just literally

00:39:23.460 finished a chapter about james the sixth and queerness in which i talk about that film quite

00:39:29.400 a lot because there's quite a lot of interesting stuff happening there with sexuality and gender

00:39:33.840 do you remember the part of the movie where um mary is pregnant and she's sort of making

00:39:40.000 amends with her brother hollywood icon jimmy stewart yes and she there whose name is james

00:39:46.420 and so she's like i'm gonna call my son james and then he starts crying he's like oh my god

00:39:52.240 you're naming your son james after me this is such a piece it's like james this is the only name

00:39:57.860 this is the only name what other name is that is he's crying in the movie he's crying at the

00:40:04.980 tribute that she's calling her son james and it's like there's not another option that's the only

00:40:09.460 name there is james you're like that's it there are only jameses only jameses only james in this

00:40:15.800 country james and at best you might get an alexander but it's unlikely it's probably going

00:40:20.740 to be a james it was it was a highlight of the movie to me um i love that i love that that's

00:40:26.400 hilarious okay so here we've got this other bannatine a relation to your i'm going to call

00:40:32.880 him your bannatine my bannatine my george there's there's a bannatine um what's that what's it called

00:40:39.120 the bannatine manuscript is what you're that's what people generally refer to as yeah but then

00:40:43.680 this other bannatine richard bannatine the secretary of john knox had his own thing that

00:40:48.440 was what was it called the memorials yeah so he's writing so george bannatine writes i think it's

00:40:56.280 a memorial book where he accounts for a lot of the people around him and who exist in that era

00:41:02.580 because bannatine never does another literary endeavor the next thing he does is this memorial

00:41:07.120 book of all the people he's related to and it's kind of like a who's who but it seems that the

00:41:13.280 richard bannatine is secretary of john knox also did some history writing and i don't know if it's

00:41:20.120 called the memorial or not i'm just clicking in to um find out what it's called but he is also

00:41:25.140 doing kind of recounting yet he does memorials of transactions in scotland from 1569 to 1573

00:41:32.000 and according to the dictionary of national biography it has been inferred that he was

00:41:37.600 of the same family with george bannatyne but there's nothing concrete known about him so i

00:41:43.880 wonder if i i don't know my head canon i've decided is that he's like the extremist cousin

00:41:49.080 who like people are like yeah we don't really talk to richard so much but he's around he

00:41:53.960 sometimes comes for christmas but he sometimes goes on his weird rants so we're just gonna

00:41:57.700 not associate with him that frequently so that's my canon and i'm sticking to it

00:42:02.700 well and this this is who we know so richard banatine a secretary of john knox so you just

00:42:09.320 think you're like a big joe rogan fanboy gross terrible person um so he in his writing recorded

00:42:16.660 a story and this is like the main thing anyone knows about margaret fleming but i don't know i

00:42:22.560 you know sources who's right who's wrong this is a great story and i'm gonna take it that it's true

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00:44:04.980 Reality TV is messy.

00:44:06.960 pop culture is louder than ever and the internet completely unhinged welcome to roxanne and chantelle

00:44:14.080 the podcast where cousins roxanne and chantelle break down reality tv celebrity drama and the

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00:44:34.400 This is Roxanne.

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00:44:36.680 Let's get into it.

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00:45:11.920 And we're back. Based on what else we know, I think it is true. So he recorded a story that

00:45:16.660 when Mary Queen of Scots was in childbirth, Margaret Fleming was one of the people tending

00:45:20.900 to her. And so I talked about this in the Four Marys episode, like Mary Queen of Scots famously

00:45:24.780 had the Four Marys, but then the Four Marys all had sisters and their sisters were kind of like

00:45:28.560 the outer circle like they were also involved and her sisters were all called margaret the four

00:45:32.920 margaret's i love that the four margaret's are the four older sisters anyway so margaret fleming

00:45:37.680 was apparently there on the scene when james was born and she was called upon to magically

00:45:42.800 transfer mary's labor pains to someone else ironically to margaret beaton who i assume

00:45:49.100 is the older sister of mary beaton so and this is a thing this is like i heard from um i don't

00:45:55.520 have the message in front of me right now but another listener who when I was talking about

00:45:59.260 this briefly in a previous episode she was saying like yeah this is like midwifery the connection

00:46:04.260 between like midwives and sort of like magic and whatever it's like this is the thing so anyway

00:46:10.500 she was brought upon to transfer the labor pains to someone else guess what didn't work but 0.88

00:46:15.160 oh you'd be so bummed out you'd be like oh no and the other woman was like no really you could do it 0.98

00:46:22.720 But so at this point, she was clearly known to be a person who had some magic powers.

00:46:28.560 One might say a witch.

00:46:30.680 So Banatine was, okay, Richard Banatine was an enemy and political opponent of Margaret

00:46:37.680 Fleming's husband.

00:46:39.100 He described her husband as an idolater and depender on witches.

00:46:43.220 So, you know, he had his own reasons for wanting to share the fact that she maybe was a witch. 0.96

00:46:48.780 But I'm going to be honest, she was a witch.

00:46:50.960 so yeah she 100 was it no exactly so she was called upon to um in the situation and this is 0.54

00:46:59.520 where like we're going to talk about this in a minute but she lived long decades and decades

00:47:03.860 and when james the first slash six became king and he was going crazy persecuting witches he

00:47:08.700 never went after her and it's because she was present at his birth he couldn't call into

00:47:12.600 question his legitimacy so he could never he could never go after her but i love that she was at his

00:47:18.700 birth as a witch oh yeah and james's i mean man yeah his whole deal was just like going after

00:47:28.880 witches but he could never go after her and this is why she's the witch who they couldn't burn

00:47:33.240 got away the one they really couldn't burn yeah not just because she was um her pedigree like

00:47:39.280 her relation to the family but she was present at his birth like he could never go after her

00:47:44.480 because he needed those witnesses yeah so he's born three years later so god everything happened 0.69

00:47:52.000 so quickly for mary queen of scots so flipping quick isn't it so at this point she's darnley's

00:47:58.620 been blown up she's potentially on the run anyway so um actually can i tell you one more thing that

00:48:04.740 i enjoyed in the mary queen of scots movie so do you know i assume you know the famous drawing of

00:48:10.900 the murder of Darnley that's like a one panel graphic novel of everything happening all at

00:48:17.200 once that like William Cecil's person had draw yes do you know what I mean and there's the part

00:48:23.060 of that in the upper corner it's baby James and he's saying avenge my cause oh lord and it's

00:48:29.260 hilarious because he's like a baby I love I love a baby in a kind of late medieval early modern

00:48:39.120 painting just wonderful they always look so strangely old and wise they well and the fact

00:48:44.160 that he's saying avenge my cause oh lord in the movie in the Saoirse Ronan movie he the baby is

00:48:49.160 shown screaming a couple times and I'm just like what he's trying to say this baby is subtitle 0.98

00:48:55.640 avenge me avenge my cause another highlight to me in that movie okay so 1570 all the shits 0.65

00:49:04.700 happened with American Scots basically so there's a guy called actually can I ask you do you know 0.80

00:49:10.080 very many people with a surname Douglas yes Douglas is still a pretty common surname I would say

00:49:16.140 yeah and a place name as well yeah they're all over the story it's just like everybody

00:49:21.160 has the surname Douglas and what I find entertaining is that their battle cry is a Douglas a Douglas

00:49:27.240 I have a friend called Douglas I don't know if he knows this I'll have to tell him

00:49:32.760 a douglas you need to tell them so it's when they went to um like the murder of rizzio

00:49:38.020 they were all like a douglas it's like oh my god who is doing this oh the douglas who could

00:49:43.140 possibly be doing it and then the part where um where darnley is stabbed outside of his exploded

00:49:48.940 house he's like don't do this to me my kinsmen it's like oh how did they know it was a kinsman

00:49:54.480 were they yelling a douglas a douglas in the dark they can't they can't not yell this constantly

00:50:00.980 subterfuge is just not a douglas thing no no but they have their battle cry and they cry it

00:50:07.320 constantly anyway okay so this is complex but this is the story so i'll tell you so october 1570

00:50:15.160 mr archibald douglas and i have encountered people in the story called archibald douglas

00:50:21.300 there was archibald douglas is one of margaret tudor's husbands this is not him this is a

00:50:26.580 different guy. It might be a person who I nicknamed on my show, A. Douglas. So he obtained

00:50:32.480 a jewel that had been made for Mary Queen of Scots as propaganda for the Scottish succession

00:50:37.080 to the English throne. He showed it to the English diplomat, Thomas Randolph, who I call

00:50:42.300 Randy Randolph, because he was so horny for the four Marys. And he wrote so much about them,

00:50:49.940 about how much he was attracted to them. Randy Randolph, he wanted to marry one and then he

00:50:55.320 couldn't and then he's all like well I didn't want to marry you anyway he's just like he's also in

00:50:58.680 the Saoirse Ronan movie I'm like oh my god Randy's in the movie I was excited anyway so he gave it to

00:51:04.720 Randy Randy's just lingering around Scotland so Randy sent the jewel to London to be like oh my

00:51:10.180 god look at this treason jewel and I love how much the Mary Queen of Scots story has like

00:51:14.840 symbolism of like embroideries and things yeah it's just like these symbols so it's like if you

00:51:20.800 go to a court of law to be like well this means this and this means this it's like does it

00:51:25.180 well she was so like express like what one of the things that always fascinates me about her is that

00:51:31.240 she used soft arts inverted commas of like embroidery and poetry and they became simultaneously

00:51:37.980 her kind of strength and her downfall it's very interesting it was something that was very like

00:51:42.900 looked down upon but was also a source of kind of her femininity as well as her queenship and i find

00:51:48.680 that really interesting so like yeah treasonous jewel a symbolism this definitely means this it's

00:51:54.860 it's so interesting the whole thing is so interesting and then because now it's like

00:51:58.900 what people what the intent of it was what people took it as and then what we now today interpret it

00:52:04.260 as like it's there's a lot falls through the cracks of like what did this actually mean

00:52:07.620 yeah what does it actually stand for what does it mean so this jewel was said to be shaped like

00:52:12.580 an antler and a heart horn hearse heart horn hearse heart horn hearse so a heart shape anyway

00:52:23.860 it's shaped like antlers and this jewel and i'm just like how big is this jewel how can a jewel

00:52:27.880 show all these things so this jewel shows mary enthroned with two fighting lions with the

00:52:32.660 inscription fall what may fall the lion shall be lord of all with a motif of intertwined roses and

00:52:41.040 thistles interesting so is james the lion or i don't know because there's two lions oh that's

00:52:47.360 interesting mary enthroned listen so mary on a throne with two fighting lions so is it saying

00:52:52.920 that the lions are fighting it I don't know like this is even to me I'm just like oh that's treason

00:52:57.040 adjacent jewelry like I don't know a lot about symbolism but this is like okay I would be

00:53:02.260 concerned mild treason I would be concerned so Randy was horrified by the implications of this

00:53:07.600 treason jewel which he said was a token to be sent to Mary and the jewel was conjectured to

00:53:13.100 have been commissioned by the witch of Athol which is Margaret Fleming and her daughter so

00:53:20.600 the witches of athol interesting so the jewels apparently so i'm just like oh so it's a treason

00:53:26.420 jewel but also casts an evil magic spell okay okay interesting a cursed jewel of treason so and

00:53:35.280 it's by the witches of athol and this is in that book i mentioned that was like the history of the

00:53:39.320 scottish witch hunts or whatever like the witch witch of athol is a thing that comes up it's just

00:53:44.000 like margaret filming was aka the witch of athol everyone's just like she just is that's the witch

00:53:49.380 she's margaret flaming here's what's up like she's a witch taken for granted so this jewel did

00:53:56.480 exist the clerk of the privy council alexander hay mentioned the jewel in a letter to um the

00:54:01.920 scottish regent after speaking with randy about it but again it's just like randy was like i saw

00:54:06.340 this jewel it's like does this jewel exist randy or did you just make it up did you just describe

00:54:11.660 something that is in fact not real yeah so he said that margaret filming sent it to mary but

00:54:19.080 it fell into elizabeth's hands it was no bigger than the palm of a hand and in the shape of a

00:54:24.320 horse of a heart horn and well decked with gold and enameled according to hay the design included

00:54:30.760 the royal arms of scotland and an image of mary in royal robes with a lion fighting a leopard

00:54:36.540 and the motto um anyway he wrote hay wrote that this matter was kept dainty which means secret

00:54:46.060 but it was known elizabeth was not pleased richard bannatyne also described this jewel

00:54:51.640 i feel like this something happened but i also feel like randy was prone to hyperbole

00:54:59.800 so yeah to make a jewel with literally mary queen of scots's image on it saying like

00:55:06.700 she will take over the country is not anyone's style in this period it's more like oh this is

00:55:12.280 a picture of aesop's fable uh-huh and it's interesting because one of the big one of the

00:55:18.700 big things at hollywood palace that they still have in the collection is the darnley jewel or

00:55:24.060 the lennox jewel which was given to mary i think before their marriage it was commissioned much

00:55:31.720 earlier but it was given to to mary it was held by her prior to their um prior to their wedding i

00:55:39.540 believe it's interesting that they would pick something like a jewel knowing that that was

00:55:45.180 something that was associated with mary i don't know it's very strange um i yeah huh and i don't

00:55:53.680 they took a bit of it and yeah made it wrong i don't know like just i'm not gonna get into this

00:55:59.420 right now but it reminds me a little bit of the casket letters where it's just like oh yeah i saw

00:56:04.300 these letters and they totally said this and this and this and then someone's like can you show us

00:56:08.020 the letters and they're like i'll show you a copy of the letters with no dates on them where it's

00:56:15.100 like everyone just really wants evidence that mary is scheming but like she was too anyway

00:56:20.740 mark i was gonna say mary queen of scotts was too good to do something like this but margaret 1.00

00:56:24.200 fleming chaos she would have done it she doesn't care she made a witch jewel like she could do that 0.98

00:56:32.480 I believe it. 0.67

00:56:33.840 Yeah, exactly.

00:56:35.160 What was the year that you said that the, your Benetine manuscript, when was that?

00:56:39.740 1568.

00:56:40.900 Yeah, yeah.

00:56:41.560 So this is after that.

00:56:42.880 So she's already, she's just like, you're going to write this like sexy poem about me,

00:56:47.100 put it on pamphlets?

00:56:47.980 Fine.

00:56:48.300 Here's what I'm going to do.

00:56:49.840 Trees and Jewel.

00:56:51.800 Trees and Jewel.

00:56:52.900 Boom.

00:56:53.280 Yeah.

00:56:54.300 Okay.

00:56:54.640 So Margaret's daughter, Jean, because everyone's called Jean slash Janet.

00:56:58.720 She married Duncan Campbell of Glen Orkey.

00:57:01.240 and then margaret's husband the earl of ethel died at kincardine castle kincardine but to be

00:57:11.660 fair that's a weird way of saying something that does look like kincardine but yeah kincardine

00:57:16.460 kincardine castle near octararder yeah nice octararder yeah 10 out of 10 yeah thank you

00:57:24.840 thank you thank you i've been thank you so her husband margaret's husband died soon after

00:57:29.480 attending a banquet at sterling castle margaret fleming was also unwell so a rumor started that

00:57:35.960 they had been poisoned at the request of various people so annabelle murray is the countess of

00:57:42.420 mar and she was the sister-in-law of margaret fleming or potentially they were poisoned by

00:57:48.940 regent morton who we call for various reasons councilman jeremy jam from parks and recreation

00:57:54.660 they got jammed

00:57:57.960 so uh basically margaret got sick her husband died it seems like they're poisons and here's

00:58:07.760 what i'm gonna say a lot of people were poisoning a lot of people at this time they probably were

00:58:11.260 poisoned probably so one of her sister-in-laws wrote let's see so i don't know it sounds like 0.93

00:58:17.800 margaret fleming herself was maybe accusing annabelle murray of having poisoned her her

00:58:22.840 sister-in-law wrote to Annabelle being like, oh, that's not true. We know that he didn't really

00:58:26.460 poison her. Margaret Fleming also appeared in person before the Privy Council to petition for

00:58:31.620 her son's rights regarding what? I'm not sure. Interesting. But her life is, you know, not dull.

00:58:39.280 Yeah. She's advocating for her family. That's incredible. And she's maybe being poisoned by

00:58:46.040 Councilman Jeremy Jam. Yeah. So the Earl's Will mentions their tapestries. We did a whole episode

00:58:52.680 about Bess of Hardwick so I'm like all in on tapestries of this era excellent um she had 186

00:58:59.280 stones weight of new wool I don't know what that means exactly in the wardrobe of Balvenie Castle

00:59:05.740 Balvenie it's listeners may know it from the whiskey um it's up in the northeast of Scotland

00:59:11.540 very near where I grew up um it's on the it's now basically adjacent to the grounds of Glenfiddich

00:59:18.940 distillery. So it's very, quite rural. And at that time, you're talking about maybe a three

00:59:24.780 hour drive from Edinburgh now. So yeah, quite, quite far north. And yeah, that's, that's really

00:59:30.580 interesting. I didn't know she had a connection to Balvenie at all. It's still standing, it's

00:59:34.180 ruins, but it is still there. And I think if you're going to be the witch of Athol, you want to be 0.99

00:59:39.140 in a rural remote area. Yeah. You want to be not in city centre. 0.53

00:59:44.960 it's interesting and this is total conjecture on my part like finding out about her links to like

00:59:50.720 dunkeld and blair you know macbeth is going to come out in the next 50 years or so and the

00:59:56.400 witches there are dunkeld and burnham or burnham would just come to dunsinane like there's

01:00:01.420 connections to that part of the world as well i wonder if shakespeare had that in mind when he

01:00:05.180 was thinking of those witches um or if he was going for more historical records about macbeth

01:00:09.720 himself but it seems like a i don't know there's a resonance there with james the sixth and first's

01:00:15.980 preoccupations with it as well well that's well that's so interesting when also then i imagine

01:00:21.800 that shakespeare trolling him a little bit to be like i'm gonna make the witches live in this place

01:00:25.540 where your aunt a witch lives today l-o-l and you can't do anything about it you cannot do a thing

01:00:36.500 you're a patron of the arts james could never do anything and this is where like i love that 0.89

01:00:42.240 margaret fleming was so untouchable entirely because she was present at his birth and there

01:00:47.000 was the whole thing about like was the father actually rizzio right so he had to always be

01:00:52.760 anyway anyway i love this so yeah so the other thing so she had this home in belveni

01:00:56.820 castle it sounds like that was her main home that's where she kept her 186

01:01:00.380 stone's weight of new wool wow what's she doing with it i don't know that's the wool is not heavy

01:01:06.480 like no like that's a lot of wool balveni's not big that must have been like a you know a fair

01:01:12.560 amount what do you do with all that wool magic things magic their other homes are at dunkeld

01:01:18.580 and blair so which are also you were saying sort of far away from edinburgh like sort of rural

01:01:24.200 areas yeah they're so there's this road that goes from um edinburgh glasgow so once you get you go

01:01:31.640 north to perth which is about an hour north of both places then there's this road called the a9

01:01:36.040 which takes you all the way up to Enroness

01:01:38.380 and it's got a lot of

01:01:40.300 kind of historical sites on it and Blair

01:01:42.100 Athol and Dunkeld and places

01:01:44.120 like that are all on it so it would have been one of

01:01:46.160 the main routes up north

01:01:48.240 as well so it makes sense that she would

01:01:50.120 maybe have Burnham, Dunkeld

01:01:52.300 rather as a halfway house and then head on

01:01:54.220 up to Balvenie. It's a way I often 0.71

01:01:56.160 drove home so yeah it's

01:01:58.000 a handy route. You were

01:01:59.820 following, you didn't know in the footsteps of this 0.94

01:02:02.080 famous witch. I didn't know, I didn't know

01:02:04.240 if only I had known I would have taken

01:02:06.000 power from it exactly exactly okay 1583 she's in credit trouble um owing enbra taylor john young

01:02:14.340 money so i wonder i'm gonna guess this has to do with the wool yeah i'm gonna take a stab and say

01:02:22.140 the ridiculous amount of wool might have cost her a bit of money yeah yeah yeah i would back you on 0.98

01:02:26.940 that yeah yeah so she was in credit trouble um her goods widows terse and income were assigned to

01:02:35.280 David Lindsay. I wanted to mention in the story of Mary Queen of Scots, there is a person called

01:02:40.000 Lindsay. He appeared a few times and it was just exciting because his name wasn't James. His name

01:02:44.240 was Lindsay. And we remember Lindsay because he's married to Euphemia.

01:02:49.940 Oh, Lindsay and Euphemia.

01:02:51.620 Yeah. So this is not Lindsay from Lindsay and Euphemia. This is a different Lindsay,

01:02:55.300 just so everybody knows.

01:02:56.620 Excellent.

01:02:57.720 But anyway, this Lindsay, like Lindsay from Lindsay and Euphemia, was also a supporter of

01:03:01.840 Hollywood icon Jimmy Stewart at this time.

01:03:05.280 um anyway so she has some money trouble although i feel like i don't know i don't know like maybe 1.00

01:03:11.820 she could like up increase her like witchcraft activities to make some more money put some 0.82

01:03:17.280 curses on some people i don't know open up an etsy shop margaret what you doing it's like it's a gig 0.85

01:03:22.600 economy hustle you have all this wool you're a witch like just make some make some dream catchers

01:03:28.740 or something get felting it's not hard i mean it might be hard i don't know i never felted so

01:03:34.220 she's all these children she can get them to do it so okay and then this is where it all kind of

01:03:40.440 comes back to mary queen of scots so margaret wrote to mary queen of scots from her lodging

01:03:44.580 in the canongate of edinburgh in march 18 1585 so this is shortly after the credit trouble

01:03:50.260 situation so she might have oh she'd been away from the town because of the plague

01:03:53.920 yeah oh do you know what this is the canongate of edinburgh canongate so the royal mile which

01:04:00.360 stretches from hollywood palace up to um edinburgh castle has lots it's made up of lots of different

01:04:06.720 streets and the canon gate which is where i think i think it must be to do with monks because of

01:04:11.360 canon um is one of the parts of the royal mile nearest hollywood so it's near the bottom of the

01:04:17.180 royal mile so it would have been very adjacent to the royal palace at that point so she was staying

01:04:21.420 somewhere fancy yeah pretty well it's funny because yes and no so at that point in time

01:04:28.500 edinburgh was still the new town hadn't been built so edinburgh was getting rapidly overpopulated

01:04:34.340 which is why things like plague were happening so on the canningate what would happen was they'd

01:04:39.960 build up rather than outwards because of the city walls so you could live in very nice lodgings on

01:04:45.160 the canningate but piled on top of you would be like up to like 10 or 11 floors of slum housing 0.90

01:04:53.060 so it was like the og skyscrapers with people like throwing you know shit out of the window 0.74

01:04:57.960 and stuff like that but on the bottom floor you would be more stable you would have bigger rooms

01:05:02.240 you might have some windows that kind of thing so the rich and the poor were quite mixed in together

01:05:07.900 at this point but within that there were like different styles and sizes of dwelling house

01:05:12.620 that may have been better or worse but at its worst on the royal mile you would have these

01:05:16.600 rickety ass skyscrapers that were prone to collapse and filled with disease well i was just

01:05:22.520 gonna say like when you're talking 10 stories of slum housing in 16th century edinburgh like the 0.93

01:05:30.680 the stability of these structures would not be terrible yeah terrible and one of the reasons

01:05:35.900 they kept getting the plague was because sanitation was just like just throw out the

01:05:40.060 window and hope for the best and it's it's you know there's a lot of things about like

01:05:43.880 how and why plague spread and how that connects to like beliefs about witches and things like that

01:05:49.280 But I would say the Canongate, because of its proximity to Holyrood, probably had some of the better lodgings.

01:05:56.080 But it is also likely that there would have been, in fact, would the Canongate have been outside of the walls at that point?

01:06:02.480 There's a point halfway up the Royal Mile where there's a pub called the World's End and that's where the toll booth of entry to the city would have been.

01:06:10.700 So it may have been slightly nicer than some of the bits further up the hill, but it certainly wouldn't have been palatial necessarily by any stretch.

01:06:18.280 any stretch. And if she's used to living in castles in any way, this is not the vibe.

01:06:23.700 Absolutely. Not the vibe. It's just not the one.

01:06:26.380 No. So she was in litigation. And I love how much, well, having just done this Best of Hardwick 0.79

01:06:33.060 episode, I love a woman who is constantly suing people because at least we know what she was 1.00

01:06:38.980 doing. Otherwise there's no records. So she was in litigation with her son. And I don't know if 1.00

01:06:44.900 That means she and her son against somebody else, or she has litigation against her son.

01:06:50.140 Yeah.

01:06:51.920 Unclear.

01:06:52.520 This is from WikiTree, the genealogy website.

01:06:57.160 Anyway, so those people did this research.

01:06:59.040 They knew that she did this.

01:07:00.320 She mentioned that the Scottish court, quote, changes manners, meaning that at present,

01:07:05.020 because this is still baby King James.

01:07:06.760 He's like a young child.

01:07:07.860 Yeah, he's an infant king, isn't he?

01:07:09.380 Yeah.

01:07:09.700 Yeah.

01:07:10.100 So she's saying at present, the young king's advisors do not favor Mary,

01:07:13.660 although she claims that the child king had great affection for her i mean the kid probably doesn't

01:07:19.680 know like who's bloody is at this point but sure but this is what she's saying because she's writing

01:07:24.800 to mary queen of scots saying like your son is great i wish that you and he could be together

01:07:29.580 one day and also can i come to england and be your lady in waiting and can i bring my daughter

01:07:34.940 with me as well thank you so like she just needs a job basically so she's sucking up to mary yeah 0.99

01:07:40.680 And Mary Queen of Scots at this point in England is just like, yes, like she wants, she's obsessed 0.99

01:07:45.160 with news about her son. She wanted to be, she remembered her like this was her lady waiting

01:07:49.400 from back in the day. She needed a new companion. So she's like, great. Like I'm all in favor of

01:07:55.460 this, but guess what? It's not Mary's choice. She is in house arrest. Queen Elizabeth would

01:08:00.920 not allow this to happen. And so this is maybe because Elizabeth just didn't allow anything good

01:08:06.440 to happen to Mary Queen of Scots, but it's also allegedly because Elizabeth remembered the trees

01:08:10.640 and jewel. And she's like, that's that bitch who made the trees and jewel. Not today, bitch. Not 1.00

01:08:16.800 today. I have a long memory and hell no. Absolutely not. So she was not able to go and

01:08:24.840 tend to Mary Queen of Scots, which I think was, I'm guessing she just, she's living in

01:08:30.240 Canongate. She's like suing somebody, potentially her son. Like, I think she just needed to get

01:08:35.200 away from it all and a new job but that didn't work anyway queen elizabeth mary was upset at

01:08:40.780 this decision i mean obviously like she wanted her to come and she wasn't able to queen elizabeth

01:08:45.760 thought that the request for companions was suspicious but you know everyone's suspicious

01:08:52.540 anyway oh yeah and that's kind of the last thing we know so that was 1585 two years later

01:08:57.880 she died she's around 59 years old um and she died in octorarder yeah in perthshire in scotland

01:09:07.360 wow what a life can i just say her children were so catherine um gene who is i think we mentioned

01:09:18.040 she married duncan campbell of glenorky grizel yep grizel grizel grizel grizel

01:09:26.880 they're all kind of variations on almost crystal but yeah you get crystals and grizzles at this

01:09:31.220 point which is it hasn't counted hasn't endured i have yet to meet a grizzle in real life but

01:09:38.160 it's popular at this point i think that's the name of one of cinderella's stepsisters in like

01:09:42.960 the og disney cinderella it's griselda yes i think griselda yeah i was just excited to see

01:09:48.920 like again like when you're having numerous children you can't just call them all gene

01:09:52.300 you have to come up with a new thing you got you got to keep it real keep it fresh oh wait this

01:09:58.200 just ties something else so you remember when she was in credit trouble owing money from all of the

01:10:02.640 wool to the tailor yes her money was all assigned to this guy david lindsey david lindsey is

01:10:08.720 grizel's husband son-in-law oh boom what a use of power can you bail my mom out she spent all

01:10:17.140 money on wool again i love that so then she also has a daughter called mary wife of francis hay

01:10:26.660 the ninth earl of errol and then her son john and this is the one who okay so she was in the

01:10:33.900 courts either with or against so he became the next earl of athole when he died in 1595 so

01:10:40.220 like 10 years after her basically the earldom in default of male heirs reverted to the crown 0.66

01:10:46.440 oh so none of them had sons yeah interesting oh that's some strong female energy yeah

01:10:54.100 the daughters that you couldn't burn oh and how does our friend of the podcast link into all this 0.99

01:11:04.620 let me look up my message from miranda because she had said miranda that's right let me look her up

01:11:11.080 and again i love and this is what an interesting life but also the fact that like so she died in

01:11:18.640 1586 1587 when did james was so james was about like 20 years old ish when she died he would be

01:11:29.140 almost exactly that 21 and mary is she not does she not get executed that year as well let me

01:11:36.480 just double check i think it was around then yeah yeah i think it's at father and gay and

01:11:41.400 just a couple months later let me just double check that literally a month later 8th of february

01:11:47.760 1587 so yeah that's incredible she she very close together so let me see so miranda says she is her

01:11:56.780 14 times great grandmother was janet stewart that is incredible her daughter my 13 times great

01:12:03.760 grandmother, Margaret Fleming, was known as the greatest witch in Scots courts. Rumor to have been

01:12:08.520 the real person behind the North Berwick witch trials, but never arrested or accused. And there's

01:12:14.300 a story that says she was so well known as a witch that when her cousin, Mary Queen of Scots, gave

01:12:17.780 birth, she was asked to be in the room to cast, to put the birthing pains onto a lady-in-waiting

01:12:22.460 so Queen Mary would have a smoother labor and not die. That is incredible. So I wonder which child

01:12:27.820 that links her to. Yeah, I don't know. Well, I hope Griselle, just because. Yeah, I hope so too.

01:12:32.980 i'm reading for her after everything david went through bailing his mom out of like fashion jail

01:12:37.640 i think that's yeah definitely incredible and four daughters and one son that's amazing well

01:12:45.260 that's why i like that it said like this what was it i think it was the yeah the jewel's conjecture

01:12:50.120 to have been commissioned by the witches of ethel meaning her and her daughters so i like that her

01:12:54.200 she and her daughters form sort of a coven a little coven that's incredible so that's margaret 0.56

01:13:01.240 thumbing and then and then she also has this weird sex sexy poem written about her yeah really kind 0.87

01:13:09.420 of yeah salacious degrading but also quite entertaining poem that was being so and I love 0.92

01:13:16.780 I love I didn't realize that after that she hadn't shied away from it I sort of had this image of her

01:13:21.980 as like oh no I've been publicly so you've been publicly shamed by a pamphlet what next but no

01:13:27.400 she kept doing it. She kept living her life. That's amazing. That makes me feel very warmly

01:13:33.400 towards her. Well, it's like, what am I going to do? I'm going to amass such quantities of wool

01:13:38.580 to make my little voodoo dolls of John Knox. Yeah. Sell those on Etsy. Yes. Yeah. You'd need

01:13:48.780 a lot for the beard. So that makes sense. You would, you would. That's, that's also going to

01:13:52.880 be discussed later today when we do our film discussion david tennant and the quantity of

01:13:57.800 of hair incredible who's coming on to discuss i can't wait to hear what you'll think oh it's

01:14:02.720 gonna be um so ellison epstein and lana wood johnson so we do on patreon usually we do these

01:14:08.680 movie reviews so this is going to be like a live wonderful movie review but there's yeah there's

01:14:14.080 a lot to discuss so you mentioned a few times you're working on a project you're working on

01:14:18.020 a book what is that so my book um is turning my thesis into uh a monograph so it'll be all about

01:14:24.500 the bannatine manuscript and the depictions of women within it and i'm also going to be looking

01:14:28.440 a little bit at the the afterlife and the sort of colonial legacy but i just finished a chapter

01:14:33.160 for an invited collection called life at the margins that will be coming out next year in

01:14:38.360 which i wrote about james the sixth and first and queerness and uh his his life and how historians

01:14:46.480 have circumvented his sexuality and his kind of, his queerness. And I think the other thing that

01:14:54.180 I'm kind of arguing in it is that a lot of the mythology around James about him being like this

01:14:59.180 good stable king is because people are so tired and fed up after Mary and Darnley that they don't

01:15:04.840 want him to repeat his parents' mistakes. So they're like, well. I was not aware that anyone

01:15:09.740 thought of him as a good and stable king in history there is in his historic historical

01:15:15.600 accounts in scottish history academics of the 20th century there's definitely a tendency to

01:15:21.380 smooth him down into being like he did a lot for culture he was pretty stable after mary really it

01:15:27.880 could be worse his mom was a total piece of work and he seems normal and i think that my theory is

01:15:32.960 that that is why a lot of the stuff about his sexuality is is swept under the rug and it's

01:15:37.560 just like well we're not going to touch that like it was it was normal at that time to have favorites

01:15:41.360 he wasn't doing anything you know untoward it was but I think there's a bigger question in it about

01:15:46.120 how we like flatten Scottish history and say like this really interesting guy who did some

01:15:52.320 you know a lot of the faults and problems that Scotland inflicted upon the world with their

01:15:59.500 colonial agenda come directly from James and from Elizabeth a lot of the problems we have with you 0.90

01:16:07.080 know witchcraft or things that that happened with that kind of nervousness around female power in

01:16:12.200 the the 1600s come directly from him and i think it's so i don't know it's so unimaginative i think

01:16:18.100 in in previous historical research to say like what doesn't really matter who his mom was what

01:16:23.440 we have to do is look at his reign and sort of think about x y and z and i'm like it matters

01:16:27.600 hugely like at the heart of it you've got this kid who didn't really have a mom because she was in

01:16:32.440 prison amongst other things for murdering his dad he has this really whack relationship with his

01:16:38.520 godmother who's also his mom's cousin who's also responsible for his mom dying and he has these

01:16:43.800 really intense passionate relationships with men in his court i'm like it's really interesting to

01:16:48.340 me so i kind of tried to reclaim that a little bit so we'll see how it's received when it comes

01:16:54.180 out i don't know if it'll be any good or not it's definitely out of my usual comfort zone but i read

01:16:58.420 a great book actually i was thinking of you it's called um bad gays a homosexual history yeah yeah

01:17:04.080 yeah and it has a great chapter about james in it where it's like essentially he just loved twinks

01:17:09.180 that just made me laugh i was like i'm definitely quoting that so it's about sort of unsmoothing the

01:17:15.680 james narrative and starting to pick holes in it like a tapestry almost and saying well

01:17:19.520 why aren't we talking more about that why are we so keen to make it just like

01:17:23.340 it happened it's fine it was better than his mom it was a union the union went okay let's keep going

01:17:28.400 and it's like didn't really like he was a whack job especially if you're a woman well and like the

01:17:34.080 continuing influence of the king james bible on yeah everything literally everything that has

01:17:43.540 happened that is terrible can be attributed back to the king james yeah i mean that's a vast

01:17:48.740 exaggeration but in terms of colonial agenda like yeah absolutely yeah like so i don't know

01:17:53.200 my attention is wandering more towards like what happens after the banatine now and i'm sort of

01:17:58.180 thinking like well yeah what are the impacts of that and and this research into sort of the

01:18:02.480 baronets of nova scotia has been really interesting in terms of like who was literally holding it who

01:18:07.760 was doing what and how is it related to other people um so there's a lot to kind of unpack

01:18:13.100 with it but i enjoyed writing about james and about queer theory and about because the argument

01:18:18.700 i was really making was people have always been averse to saying he was a gay man he was a

01:18:23.840 bisexual man he was a heterosexual man who had affairs with men and i'm like why don't you just

01:18:28.060 throw all of that out the window and just accept this label of like queerness and say well if we 0.55

01:18:32.180 take a queer lens on james's court and his life what do we learn from it what do we learn about 0.84

01:18:37.900 this person who was like the product of a very dysfunctional marriage a very dysfunctional family 0.74

01:18:44.440 setup and see where that takes us next um so yeah i don't know i can send you if you like because

01:18:50.660 i'd be interested to know i would love to read that i'd love to i feel like many listeners would

01:18:54.620 like to read that too so if people want to keep up with what you're up to including that you you're

01:18:59.920 on i don't know like what what's i'm not what social media is there i've evacuated the hell

01:19:07.300 site um but i am now on blue sky um and i'm on as eclepit which is y-c-l-e-p-i-t um i have a

01:19:15.820 website uh luciearhinney.co.uk and i also podcast you can catch me on the cast of us which is a

01:19:22.320 zombie uh pop culture podcast which is currently covering uh the tarryl dixon show and we're about

01:19:29.400 to start a re-watch of all of the walking dead so that's the kind of stuff that i do at the moment

01:19:33.380 but yeah i'm i'm coming into a point where i don't actually know what my next project slash

01:19:38.980 job is going to be so i'm i'm excited to see but those are the places you can you can usually find

01:19:43.780 me that's wonderful you know yeah i i'm really happy to bring you into the fold of the whole

01:19:50.560 vulgar history oh anytime i've been a huge fan for so long um and one of my greatest sorrows is that

01:19:57.740 because of when the pandemic hit we were deprived of cool hangs time in saskatoon i feel like there

01:20:03.920 was this whole year where nobody could hang out and then we for various reasons moved back to the

01:20:08.360 uk and i'm just like always sad that we didn't get that time to like chat in person and have a coffee

01:20:14.640 and whatnot so this is lovely i want to let the listeners know as well when we finish this

01:20:19.220 conversation lucy and i are going to do a special just a little a little quick recording for um

01:20:25.080 patreon because you used to work at holly rood palace i did yes and she did that was my student

01:20:31.300 job yeah i can't imagine okay well i'm about to learn all about it so that's going to be on

01:20:36.220 patreon we're going to do an after show where i'm just going to ask you lots of questions and one of

01:20:39.700 my questions is going to be about the david rizzo blood stain on the floor i don't know how much

01:20:43.820 you're allowed to say but that's but that's going to be behind the paywall so anyway so the people

01:20:48.020 on Patreon can hear that. We're going to record that next. But thank you so much, Lucy. This is

01:20:53.360 such a treat. Oh, it was so fun. Anytime. This was great. Thanks, Anne, for having me.

01:21:03.780 And so speaking of Mary Queen of Scots and all of it. So I have recorded the, I think,

01:21:12.860 I think I say in this, I was just about to do the YouTube live. That's all happened.

01:21:16.000 It went great. We had such a good time. Myself, Alison Epstein, and Lenwood Johnson were talking

01:21:21.160 about the 2018 Mary Queen of Scots film starring Saoirse Ronan. There was a fun time in the chat.

01:21:26.980 Everybody had opinions. We were all angry, the chat and the three of us, about several

01:21:31.620 omissions of characters. Nobody in the movie says a Douglas, just egregious things like that.

01:21:39.260 But anyway, you can still, if you weren't able to watch the YouTube live, you can still find it.

01:21:43.860 the recording is just up there on my YouTube page. Did you know I have a YouTube page?

01:21:47.940 There's two things on it. Both of them are live stream recordings. So if you just go to,

01:21:53.340 if you look up Vulgar History on YouTube and then click on live, you'll find the Mary Queen

01:21:56.660 of Scots live. It is three and a half hours long because we had a lot to say. And there's another

01:22:02.140 live recording there too. If you just are like, I can't get enough of watching these three people's

01:22:06.460 faces. We did a previous live stream about the Lady Jane Grey movie as well. And speaking of

01:22:11.820 Alison Epstein. I wanted to just let you all know if you didn't already know that Alison's 0.99

01:22:16.940 new book, Let the Dead Bury the Dead has been published. You can get it from wherever you get

01:22:22.020 your books from, from if you have a bookstore down the street, like side note, there is a

01:22:26.800 bookstore down the street from me. It just opened like life goals. Anyway, go to your bookstore or

01:22:31.440 go to your library, place a hold. If your library doesn't own Let the Dead Bury the Dead by Alison

01:22:36.060 Epstein, there's always a form on every library website where you can suggest the library buy a

01:22:40.160 so you can do that lots of ways to get this book and once you have it and you start reading it you

01:22:45.180 can join the first ever vulgar history book club and so the way that this is working is that i'm

01:22:50.880 putting up separate posts there's just a couple up so far because the book was like just published

01:22:54.900 i respect that not everybody has read the whole thing yet if you've even got your copy yet so

01:23:00.300 there's a post where it's like it's like chapters one through five or something like that so you can

01:23:04.060 just jump in and talk just about those chapters don't worry about spoilers you don't have to

01:23:07.460 finish the book to take part. The next post is like, let's talk about chapters six through nine.

01:23:11.740 So we can kind of like read along with each other and just talk about the plot twists

01:23:15.900 as they happen. The main question that I have from the first part of the book is like,

01:23:21.680 is this one character an ageless immortal witch or not? And that's what a lot of my discussions

01:23:29.360 are about. But anyway, I hope you are able to get a copy of Alison's book and you are enjoying it

01:23:34.480 and take part in the book club, you can take part in it by going to vulgarhistory.com

01:23:39.260 slash book club. And everything is there, how it all works. It's all there, vulgarhistory.com

01:23:45.160 slash book club. Oh, I have another announcement actually. So last week when I was talking with

01:23:51.020 Alison, speaking of, about Empress Elizabeth of Russia, we were talking about the Jeweled Tortoise

01:23:56.600 Award, which was given to Alexei, Empress Elizabeth's longtime super secret sexy husband.

01:24:02.360 And we were talking about Tonga, the buffalo herder, who was from the episode last year from the international season with Ronnie Ditta. And if you will recall, Tonga, the buffalo herder, aka the golden maknae, like Jungkook from BTS, he was amazing at everything he tried to do. And like Alexei was for Empress Elizabeth, he was really always there for her and just supported her in a great way.

01:24:25.320 And so I threw it out to you, the Titswood Brigade. Do you think that he should get it? Elevation. So he was already in the Lady Jane Seymour Memorial Award for Outstanding Supporting Performance. But we both felt like, I think he's in jeweled tortoise territory. And so I asked in an Instagram poll, 61% of people said yes, he should go up. And if you're like 49% said no, it's like, no, most people said not sure.

01:24:48.000 So most people say yes, and that's what's in my heart.

01:24:53.220 And so Tunga, the buffalo herder, no surname, don't know anything else about him.

01:24:59.620 But we do know that he was a really good friend and partner to Ronnie Ditta.

01:25:04.420 So he has now joined the ranks of the Jeweled Tortoise Award category.

01:25:09.420 And some other things that I want to mention to you.

01:25:12.320 For instance, I have a website, which is vulgarhistory.com, where if you go there,

01:25:17.040 you can find there are transcripts of the most recent episodes. If you like to read podcasts,

01:25:23.120 you can find those there. My partner, Aveline Malik from The Wordery is working at those sort

01:25:28.980 of like from front to back. So like the news ones first working backwards. So if there's an older-ish

01:25:33.220 episode you're hoping for a transcript for, that will come in time. But anyway, you can find those

01:25:37.740 at vulgarhistory.com. There's also a form there where you can contact me if you have suggestions

01:25:42.140 about people to talk about in the next season.

01:25:45.200 You could also message me at vulgarhistorypod at gmail.com.

01:25:49.340 And I was going to tell you, I'll tell you just one thing,

01:25:51.840 which is that I do have a plan for next season.

01:25:55.460 So I was looking back through my past episodes today for various reasons.

01:25:59.440 And I was seeing like, okay, I often took three months off,

01:26:02.840 four months off between seasons.

01:26:04.180 Like before I was, I found ways to keep having episodes,

01:26:07.720 you know, by doing interviews and things like that.

01:26:09.360 And so I am going to be, there's going to be weekly episodes while I work on what I'm going

01:26:14.360 to say is my most ambitious season to date. It's combining just all the, everything that I've

01:26:19.500 gotten, all the information I've gotten directly and indirectly from all of you, what you like in

01:26:22.960 the podcast, what you'd like to see in the future. It's going to be sort of a combination of the

01:26:28.180 Mary Queen of Scots season or the Lady Jane Grey season, where it's like a season where you talk

01:26:32.900 about a bunch of people and in so doing, you learn about one main person. So there'll be like a main

01:26:37.760 person. But there's also going to be an international component to it. This is what

01:26:41.820 I'm planning. And this is why it's taking a bit longer than sometimes to plan because I really

01:26:45.300 want to talk about this person who I won't reveal who it is. Although I will say it's no one anyone

01:26:51.540 has ever asked me to talk about. So yeah. So eliminate anyone that you are thinking of right

01:26:57.240 now. It's someone no one's ever suggested to me. But it's a person whose life was at a really

01:27:02.980 interesting time. A lot of interesting events happened to this person. This person had an

01:27:07.200 interesting relatives and stuff anyway, but also at the world at the same time, there's lots of

01:27:12.360 stuff going on. So what I'm looking at doing is talking about this person, the people who

01:27:15.500 directly affected them, but then also what was going on in the world at the same time.

01:27:19.620 So it's going to be like this combo international mixed with the Lady Jane Grey or the

01:27:25.140 Mary Queen of Scots season. And what I'm hoping to be able to do is to just like do it from front

01:27:29.880 to back. Like if I can plan enough ahead and get all the research done, we'll just do all the

01:27:36.340 episodes all in a row without taking breaks in between, like I did during the Mary Queen of

01:27:40.920 Scots season. There's also going to be hopefully a good mixture of like episodes where it's just

01:27:44.760 me talking and also episodes where I have guests because some of these topics, like I really need

01:27:49.300 to bring in an expert. So anyway, please know that that is all in the works and I'm excited.

01:27:53.560 And as I have more that I can share with you about that, I shall share more about that with

01:27:59.800 you. If you want to keep up with just what I'm doing and, you know, other random polls I'm doing

01:28:04.200 or whatever like i'm basically at this point with just the way social media is right now i'm almost

01:28:08.700 entirely only on instagram at vulgar history pod where i post an awful lot in the stories i'm also

01:28:14.540 in other places you know i check for my mentions you people are saying to me on tiktok where i'm

01:28:19.860 at vulgar history on instagram and threads i'm at vulgar history pod i'm on like blue sky like god

01:28:25.440 knows but like basically instagram is where i mostly live and that's where you can find me

01:28:30.900 also got coming out soon a new design of merch so stay tuned for that but also all the other

01:28:37.640 merch if you're like doing some holiday shopping or whatever vulgarhistory.com slash store and or

01:28:43.320 if you live not in the u.s go to vulgarhistory.redbubble.com because that's going to save

01:28:47.680 you a little bit of money on shipping we also have patreon which is patreon.com slash ann foster

01:28:54.520 writer so this is where if you pledge at least one dollar a month you get early ad-free access

01:28:59.260 to all episodes of Vulgar History Podcast. And if you pledge $5 or more a month, you get access

01:29:05.500 to the early ad-free episodes, but also bonus episodes, including Vulgar Peace Theater. Most

01:29:10.720 recently, I've just posted the episode this week, actually, where Alice and Lana and I were talking

01:29:15.080 about Chevalier, the movie about the Chevalier St. George. Not the Chevalier day on, a person who

01:29:22.160 I really wish there was a movie about and I hope there will be soon. Anyway, also bonus episodes

01:29:26.780 of things. I did at one point say that when I get 500 Patreon members, I will do a Sew This

01:29:32.420 Asshole episode about John Knox. And as I speak, I'm at something like 460 members. So that's

01:29:38.500 getting close. And I'm just like, you know, it's going to happen at some point if I contribute to

01:29:43.940 that by joining the Patreon, which you can actually do now. You can join the Patreon for

01:29:48.080 free as well, because that's where the book club is hosted too, for free. It's just when you join

01:29:51.900 the Patreon for free, there's a chat you can do there for all the, where we talk about all the

01:29:56.540 episodes and you can join the book club. So if you want to take part in it, but you're not in a

01:30:01.100 place where you're able to like donate money, totally fine. And I just want to say like this

01:30:05.000 podcast is always going to be free. Like this is the main thing that's happening is this podcast.

01:30:09.980 And I'm happy to be doing this with all of you. And I think that's nearly everything I want to

01:30:15.640 say. I think that's everything I want to say. So thank you so much for listening. And there'll be

01:30:21.340 another new episode next week and until then keep your pants on and your tits out and have a happy 1.00

01:30:27.560 halloween 0.99

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Vulgar History - November 01, 2023

Mary Queen of Scots： Bonus： The A Scottish Witch Who Didn't Burn

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