Vulgar History - Mary, Queen of Scots： Mary's Mother, Marie de Guise： Part One

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00:01:00.000 hello welcome to vulgar history of feminist women's history comedy podcast my name is ann foster and

00:01:17.480 this is a new episode in season six there's something about mary queen of scots today we're

00:01:22.320 going to be talking about mary queen of scots mother marie de guise and because this is a family

00:01:28.740 that I know a little bit about, not a lot about.

00:01:32.400 I mostly just researched Marie herself.

00:01:34.620 We have a special guest who is Landa Wood Johnson,

00:01:37.300 who was last on this podcast for the Empress Cece episode

00:01:40.540 because she knows all about the Diggy's family

00:01:42.800 and she's here with a lot of context

00:01:44.760 and just really explaining the context of this family

00:01:48.140 is so important to get.

00:01:49.740 Like we're going to get to Mary Crane of Scots eventually

00:01:51.500 in this journée of a season.

00:01:54.120 But, you know, before we were talking about Margaret Tudor

00:01:57.300 and kind of explaining what Mary Queen of Scots is claimed the throne eventually is going to be

00:02:03.500 to the throne of England. But also she inherits from Margaret Tudor, maybe a bit of what all the

00:02:08.720 Tudor people seem to have, which is just like a really disastrous instinct for choosing romantic

00:02:15.900 partners. But Mary Queen of Scots, as we're going to talk about it in this episode, was very much 0.72

00:02:21.540 the product of her mother's French family. And we're going to explain why in this episode. So

00:02:26.640 enjoy this episode of Vulgar History with special guest star Lana Wood Johnson. 0.69

00:02:32.400 Okay, so we're joined today by friend of the podcast, Lana Wood Johnson. Lana,

00:02:37.460 thank you very much for taking the time to join us today.

00:02:40.760 Thank you for having me come and talk about my nerds.

00:02:45.420 Here's the thing. So this is, I like, it was kind of a no brainer to me to invite you

00:02:51.220 on this episode, because this is a part of history that you have kind of taught me.

00:02:55.480 and it's Mary, Queen of Scots.

00:02:57.540 So this is the Mary, Queen of Scots season.

00:02:59.600 There's something about Mary, Queen of Scots.

00:03:01.220 And today we're talking about her mother,

00:03:03.880 Marie DeGeese,

00:03:04.920 who is a member of the DeGeese family.

00:03:07.940 And that's what you know a lot about, Lana.

00:03:11.760 They're terrible people.

00:03:13.520 Of course, I know a lot about them. 1.00

00:03:16.800 The DeGeeses. 1.00

00:03:17.860 Yeah.

00:03:18.300 So it's actually, we were just comparing notes,

00:03:20.460 but what I've prepared is stuff about Marie herself 0.73

00:03:23.920 and what you just inherently know in your bones is like her dirtbag brothers so we're gonna give

00:03:31.600 you a whole picture of the whole diggy's situation and marie's mom marries grandma antoinette because 0.57

00:03:39.280 she is she's problematic but she didn't have anything interesting happened to her other than

00:03:44.280 being awesome that's the thing so actually yeah because when we were first playing the season you

00:03:49.340 suggested I could do an episode about Antoinette. It's Antoinette of Bourbon, right? Yeah. Bourbon.

00:03:57.020 Anyway, you suggested that and I was reading about her and I was just like, this is like

00:04:00.320 interesting, but also it's not an episode because she just did very well. She accomplished

00:04:07.480 everything. There's not really any pension in her story because she just like achieved everything.

00:04:12.920 she's she's a princess she married an influential family they became more influential under her

00:04:19.680 she did a very good job at everything she did and everyone that she raised is a terrible

00:04:25.640 scheming person and i love them to bits except for marie but that's why she's the least i know

00:04:32.380 yeah i don't know she just like i don't know it's so if you could explain a bit i mean if we start

00:04:38.700 from there like if we kind of explain who marie diggies is based on who her like genetically but

00:04:44.600 also just like as a role model like kind of like the last time we were talking about margaret tudor

00:04:49.800 and she grew up seeing margaret beaufort elizabeth woodville like she grew up seeing women in

00:04:56.280 positions of power who were respected and got shit done so like just seeing that kind of sets you up 0.60

00:05:03.000 to be like okay i i can also be like that and marie diggies i think saw that it's her grandmother 0.68

00:05:07.680 right Antoinette uh Marie is Antoinette is Marie's mother Mary's grandmother right right okay yeah so

00:05:16.940 Marie de Guise her mother Antoinette de Bourbon can you explain about Antoinette's whole thing

00:05:24.180 Antoinette was a Bourbon which means means that she's actually like blood princess not princess

00:05:32.080 princess but like okay france is weird i'm also going to i i want to go on record as saying um

00:05:37.940 i took six weeks of french in high school or in in junior high and it was the only class i ever

00:05:44.280 cheated in in my entire life so my pronunciation is going to be horrible but it's the best i can

00:05:51.220 do with um you know the teachers that i had well here's the thing my french pronunciation is

00:05:55.640 impeccable so between us but you're canadian i speak with a quebecois accent so um so we're

00:06:07.560 going to do the best we can with what we've got but that doesn't diminish our love for them so

00:06:12.020 okay so she was kind of there's kind of three kinds of prince in france at this time there's

00:06:17.580 prince of the blood the royal family which is like actually genuinely completely prince and

00:06:28.000 princesses like they're the kings they're the king's kids they're the male line grandchildren

00:06:33.400 kind of like what england is now and then there's princes du sang which is princes of the royal

00:06:38.260 blood which means they're legitimately descended from the male line of descent of french kings

00:06:43.520 so uh the condé the condé and the bourbons but the bourbons get complicated and then there's

00:06:51.460 oh sorry no prince du sang so that's the condé the condé the montpensier so and then there's the

00:06:58.380 princess legitimé which is legitimated princess which is our which are a male line of descent

00:07:05.060 from the king's other children the bonus kids that they just had extras in case and so um her

00:07:14.740 family is is bourbon of the prince du song which is princes of the royal blood which means they're

00:07:21.280 not the main line but that doesn't stop them from eventually being the main line uh with henry of

00:07:28.680 Navarre are, are, which Anne knows very well from Queen Margot. That's her great nephew.

00:07:41.620 So that's her family. And then she marries Claude Dupdegis. And Claude is like the second or third

00:07:50.880 son of the Duchy of Lorraine. And now this is where my favorite part comes in, the Holy Roman

00:07:58.160 Empire, because Lorraine is not in France yet. Lorraine is in France now. But during, at that

00:08:05.940 time, he was not a French citizen, but he was buddies with the King of France and the King of

00:08:12.900 France gave him a dukedom in France. So he is a new kind of prince, which is called a Prince

00:08:18.980 Etange. I'm guessing that one's terrible, but it's like a foreign prince. So basically he's

00:08:25.620 noble because he's from a noble family that isn't a French noble family. He's from a noble

00:08:33.620 Holy Roman Empire family, which is as powerful as you can get without actually being a member

00:08:40.320 of the royal family by marriage or not marriage. And basically, Antoinette married Claude, who was

00:08:48.660 the first Duke de Guise of the Lorraine branch of Duke de Guise, which means that they're starting

00:08:55.000 their own dynasty they have influence they have friendships but like this is this is the family

00:09:01.320 like this is the beginning of this diggy's family it ends in a couple more generations but like

00:09:08.620 not without like spreading out very very well Antoinette was like really smart 1.00

00:09:17.280 she was genuinely good at everything she did she outlived all but one of her children and 0.99

00:09:24.900 that child was the one that went off to become an abbess at Reims she had a ridiculous number 0.80

00:09:32.340 of children and yeah like 15 or something most all of them made it to adulthood um I think she 0.68

00:09:42.340 only had two that died in early childhood and the rest of them like did things and we will talk

00:09:50.880 about the children that did things but like two of two of them became cardinals two of them became

00:09:57.380 abbesses one was a grand prior one was two of them were dukes in their own right no three sorry

00:10:04.420 three of them were dukes in their own right but one of them was also the cardinal

00:10:08.760 and then there was a marquee and the marquee will continue popping up as we as as Anne continues to

00:10:16.380 talk about marie i have no doubt i'm just cutting there's there's 12 she had 12 children 12 children

00:10:21.800 yeah and lots of them are boys so only like four girls and the rest are problematic four girls that

00:10:30.140 made it to adulthood two that died so we're down to 10 and then we have four girls we're talking

00:10:35.420 about the main one so now we're down to six so there's six boys yeah and so what you're describing

00:10:41.780 as well like this makes sense to me because we're gonna this this like place setting is very

00:10:46.300 important but we're gonna get to a point where um the king of scotland spoiler is like i need a wife

00:10:52.040 and the fact that he chooses her it's like she's not the daughter of the king but she like might

00:10:59.100 as well be in terms of prestige and importance yeah like she's she's the daughter of the buddy

00:11:04.800 of the king. And she's related by blood to the kings. She's related by blood to part of the

00:11:16.060 Holy Roman Empire. So there's a ranking member of the Holy Roman Empire. The Duchy of Lorraine was

00:11:23.720 very powerful and influential. Which is why France and Germany have kind of been fighting out about

00:11:29.960 it since they became it since even before they were France and Germany well this is this is

00:11:35.220 another thing that I just want to also mention so like the last American Scots episode we did

00:11:39.680 was about Margaret Tudor and that's where I was talking about you know England and Scotland and

00:11:44.840 I was focusing a lot on them but like France is there on the periphery like this is um all of

00:11:51.220 these countries are alternately allying and being at war with each other and the same thing is

00:11:58.780 happening on like continental Europe. So there's a lot of like, when we talk about like these

00:12:04.980 marriages are for alliance reasons, it's like, yeah, because it's like, oh, let's like make

00:12:10.000 these countries be not at war for five minutes by marrying these people to each other. And then

00:12:13.680 they're at war again. Like this is just, there's so many countries involved. And this is why the

00:12:18.700 Mary Queen of Scots season is as many episodes as it's going to be, because there's a lot of

00:12:22.600 players here france being a huge one well and one of the things as i mentioned before mentioned to

00:12:31.940 you and um my husband and i stayed up late one night as i explained germany to him because he

00:12:36.780 dared question me in my own home uh the concept of a nation state the concept of like this ethnic

00:12:43.660 nation state that we see europe as right now is very very new it's younger than america

00:12:49.840 around the time of america was when it was starting to formulate but like it was kind of this

00:12:57.280 varying groups of power and influence and even during this time um burgundy was part of france

00:13:04.980 and then became not part of france and became part like officially part of england for a little

00:13:09.980 bit and then they got it back and then like what what we think of as england what we think of as

00:13:15.900 France, what we think of as Germany, those were not things. They didn't exist. It was

00:13:20.780 these duchies and how they aligned with which kings and the kings got their power

00:13:25.820 from having powerful duchies on their side. And that's part of where I get really confused

00:13:31.100 and kind of give up trying to. And this is why you're on the episode today.

00:13:36.060 This is my favorite part. Oh, my gosh. All these. Yeah, because it's

00:13:39.860 anyway, all these little parts of like what I now think of as France. But like back then was like

00:13:45.480 really crucially not france they were a bunch of little places who allied with other countries and

00:13:51.920 anyway yeah so like lorraine lorraine is the like the last real the lorraine of the time is the last

00:13:59.280 real strong bits of the third kingdom of charlemagne so charlemagne when he when he died

00:14:06.320 split his country between his three kids and one side became what we mostly know as germany as

00:14:12.800 And at the time was the Holy Roman Empire and they like elected their emperors.

00:14:18.600 And then one side became the parts of France that weren't Eleanor of Aquitaine's and Burgundy, but like the rest of France.

00:14:27.120 And then the middle parts were Lothair, Lothair stuff.

00:14:32.000 And that became Lorraine and it's now Belgium and, and the Netherlands and all of that.

00:14:36.800 But like, this is an old, powerful country in its own right that's currently aligned with the Holy Roman Empire and France likes it. So that's why, like, that's why the De Guises have so much power is because they're both domestically important through Antoinette and foreign important through their connections with Lorraine.

00:14:54.920 sorry no no going deep this is why you're here so Antoinette de Bourbon is this again like she's 0.60

00:15:06.020 just an impressive person she just like was she had this power position she had this good marriage 0.97

00:15:11.160 she had all these children the children mostly survived and she was just like thriving like she

00:15:16.500 just which again it's like a great way to be but not a person I can do a 45 minute episode about

00:15:23.040 because she just did well for herself.

00:15:26.380 She's just doing well.

00:15:27.100 And then Marie is her oldest child.

00:15:31.320 That's her firstborn.

00:15:32.480 Yes, correct.

00:15:34.420 I'm just gonna refer to my notes.

00:15:37.740 So, oh, actually, can you talk about

00:15:40.460 the Holy Roman Empire again for a minute?

00:15:42.180 I just need to open another document. 0.98

00:15:43.640 Just vamping.

00:15:45.000 I mean, you know me,

00:15:46.620 I can literally just sit and talk about

00:15:48.080 the Holy Roman Empire forever.

00:15:49.600 But to talk about Antoinette,

00:15:51.340 why she was so good at what she did. That's the thing that I'm ready for that one. She was an

00:15:57.700 administrator. Back in the day, we have this impression nowadays that women have never been 1.00

00:16:05.880 about money, that the men were about money. But back at this time, the women were the ones that 0.99

00:16:10.920 if you have a strong wife that can organize things really well, you have a really strong 1.00

00:16:16.940 holding because the men were off fighting wars they were fighting every war they could possibly

00:16:22.000 get into in order to keep maintain or grow their territory so Antoinette was like really really 0.97

00:16:28.820 good at managing the household managing their finances despite a husband that was like literally

00:16:33.940 always at war and way too many children um in a brand new duchy basically well and this is like

00:16:43.620 a thing like it's a phrase that i've come across a lot when i when i'm talking about like you know

00:16:47.320 this is the education that so-and-so received it's like how to run a household and it's not just like

00:16:51.440 how to teach your maids how to dust the windowsills it like it means like doing that like

00:16:58.220 exactly what you're saying it's administrative work it's like paperwork like that is like you

00:17:02.900 were being a household manager effectively more than a household like when we say household now

00:17:08.440 we think of our homes true when her her household was like she was a property manager she was um 1.00

00:17:15.760 she was a real estate person she was making sure that the taxes got collected like she was funding

00:17:21.760 a country she was funding the equivalent of like she was basically a state uh governor in a lot of 0.99

00:17:29.940 different ways like there were people that were doing the administrative tasks but she was she 0.98

00:17:34.460 was like the the person that was making sure everybody got the money they needed that the

00:17:38.920 money was flowing to them correctly that like that everybody like all of this stuff was handled

00:17:45.220 and nobody had to think about it because when things got chaotic you didn't have enough money

00:17:50.080 to be a knight it took hundreds of people to keep one night in the field let alone your own like

00:17:57.740 private company and that's what this guy was running so she was she was funding a national

00:18:04.000 guard and running and administering their their lands and estates so she like being good at that 0.99

00:18:11.140 and then also having time to be super schemey but like not like through her children and hard-line

00:18:19.080 catholic like ultra catholic is the term to describe this woman to this day and at the time

00:18:27.160 even in france during this period she was extraordinarily catholic yeah and that comes

00:18:33.340 through in her children yeah well except for marie but this is a whole thing about um so like

00:18:40.780 you're describing about there's all these little duchies and like there's all these different

00:18:45.280 places and everyone's allying with different places through marriage and treaties and whatever

00:18:48.640 but there's also this is the era of like where protestantism starts getting more of a foothold

00:18:55.900 in more places and then that becomes another element that's involved in like which countries

00:18:59.900 ally with which other countries because it's like well we could only ally with a catholic country

00:19:03.660 like it and it kind of went both ways like you would at one point the geese's were considering

00:19:09.440 becoming lutheran because it would be more powerful for them so it wasn't really about

00:19:13.700 like personal faith in a lot of way at these levels at these political at these noble levels

00:19:19.360 faith it was less about faith and more about politics of who you aligned with and how

00:19:24.040 um and they were never going to be huguenot because that was not they were they were truly

00:19:30.380 at war with all huguenots for all time but like considering moving to lutheranism considering

00:19:35.980 moving to like being ultra catholic and literally having two cardinals in the family like it was

00:19:44.520 it was as much political as it was more than it was any sort of like idea of faith okay so i'm

00:19:52.460 looking at the document, what I wanted to bring up was just, it's my timeline of like who I've

00:19:57.040 talked about on the podcast. And just so I could put this in a place and time. So Marie de Guise

00:20:00.660 was born in 1515. So that's decades after Margaret Tudor. This is because she's going to marry

00:20:07.960 Margaret Tudor's son. Anyway, so this is like the next generation. So other people who were born 0.75

00:20:14.560 at circa around the same time, it's all like, we're really, this is in parallel to what people

00:20:21.180 think about is like the Tudor era in England. Because so Maria de Guise was born in 1515.

00:20:28.100 Catherine Parr, Henry VIII's final wife was also born. Henry VIII is going to be a character in

00:20:33.540 this story. She was born 1512. Frances Gray, who was the daughter of Mary Tudor, she was born 1517.

00:20:42.600 Like Anne Askew was born 1521. I know who that is.

00:20:44.440 anyone oh francis gray from the movie lady jane um anyway it's just like all these people so it's

00:20:51.860 like she's being born at around the same time as as numerous people who you think of as like

00:20:56.780 oh the people of cuter so like those are those are her peers that's who like not necessarily

00:21:01.440 she knew them but that's who was around at the same time like this is the era that we're looking

00:21:05.400 at i don't really have anyone that we've covered on the podcast from other countries who was born

00:21:09.480 around the same time the closest would be doña gracia nazi was born in 1510 so just in terms of

00:21:17.180 you know religious stuff so that's you know when the jews were being persecuted heavily

00:21:22.180 one of the times this is the time that she that doesn't come next at all no no but this is what 0.66

00:21:29.880 doña gracia nazi her family fled spain from portugal that was all happening at the same time

00:21:33.700 And that's like, because Isabella, her nan and Isabella, and then her daughter is Catherine of Aragon, who married Henry VIII.

00:21:41.320 Like we're firmly in like Henry VIII era.

00:21:45.720 All the people who are tangentially related to his story are all kind of being born and or running around when she was born.

00:21:53.380 So 1515.

00:21:54.580 Let's see.

00:21:55.260 So Antoinette, this is her first child.

00:21:58.100 Marie came swiftly.

00:21:59.840 They had planned for the baby to be delivered in a certain place.

00:22:03.700 but then the baby came so quickly that in fact marie was born in a random peasant's house because

00:22:09.420 they were en route from one house to another house so i i like to think i like when there's

00:22:14.540 an exciting birth story like njinga had an exciting birth story so it's just when someone

00:22:18.660 is born so dramatically it's like oh this is gonna be a person who is an interesting person

00:22:22.960 anyway yes so she's born and then you know all these other siblings were born in quick succession

00:22:30.180 as well and marie was sent off to be raised in a convent with her grandmother philippa who was

00:22:37.220 a nun do you know anything about her grandmother philippa i guess that's antoinette's mom

00:22:41.660 um let me look i did not go deep on philippa but being raised by your grandmother is pretty

00:22:48.960 normal in this family it looks like no i don't know much about philippa other than let me see

00:22:55.340 Oh, okay.

00:22:56.940 Well, I don't know.

00:22:57.440 I just find it.

00:22:58.020 No, Philippa's on the other side.

00:22:58.940 I think Philippa's on the other side. 1.00

00:23:00.740 Oh, and then she's on the Degi side. 1.00

00:23:02.700 Yeah. 0.99

00:23:03.020 Yeah.

00:23:03.640 She's Philippa of Goulders.

00:23:05.820 So she was the Duchess Consort of Lorraine.

00:23:09.540 So she became a nun after her husband died,

00:23:11.620 which is pretty, 0.98

00:23:13.000 that's kind of a normal thing to do sometimes

00:23:15.340 if you're not, if you're not schemy

00:23:18.240 and like to be in charge of things.

00:23:23.260 Exactly.

00:23:23.720 We've seen some other stories.

00:23:24.580 so it's like her mother her grandmother is a nun but like it's she's not like a nun who had a bunch

00:23:29.440 of babies it's like she lived her life her husband died and then she like in her retirement years

00:23:33.660 became a nun so marie was being raised around nuns but not to be a nun because she was the

00:23:41.060 oldest daughter of this family um and so like they knew that her marriage was going to be an

00:23:46.200 important sort of like pawn related thing anyway but what's I think he hears that she was growing

00:23:54.400 up around nuns not growing up at royal court so she like she's gonna have those skills which we're

00:24:01.800 gonna see but she also got a good head on her shoulders she got a good education and again

00:24:07.700 being raised around like women who knew how to do stuff and like seeing that as just okay this is 1.00

00:24:14.720 how things are women can be whatever well nuns nuns were also administering estates like they 0.86

00:24:21.840 were managing things yeah it was one of the few occupations women were allowed to have 0.99

00:24:26.740 that actually were occupations like we we like to pretend that you go to a nunnery and then you just 0.95

00:24:31.540 sit and pray all day and cry a lot but like they were they were managing estates they they were

00:24:38.080 landholders in their own right in a lot of ways so she's learning she's picking up a lot of like

00:24:43.900 we're really hammering this home but it's like important for what she does later to know that 0.99

00:24:48.100 Marie de Guise was taught and observed women having the skills of like running running shit

00:24:56.180 like she making decisions yeah exactly exactly so when she was 14 two of her uncles came to visit 0.50

00:25:04.160 Philippa at the convent but also just to kind of like see like hey how is Marie doing like now

00:25:09.180 she's 14 they're kind of maybe thinking like let's see what what's she what's she about what

00:25:13.760 how how can we marry her off or like what's she like and they came and saw her and they were

00:25:19.140 excited to see that she was very beautiful well i want to say like i mentioned this when i was in

00:25:24.760 podcasts but it's like people record what other people look like and marie was very tall um her

00:25:33.520 daughter also very like marie was like i think she's like six feet tall like she's like tall for

00:25:38.380 woman for today. So she stands out. And I don't, I don't want to be like dismissive. But I think 1.00

00:25:46.300 like when you're six feet tall, and you're very poised, and you're very smart, and you're very

00:25:51.140 charismatic, it's like, whether you're beautiful or not, like you stand out. And they were just

00:25:56.240 like, Oh, oh, this is like a Cinderella situation. Like they're coming to this convent. They're like,

00:26:00.300 Oh, wait a minute. Our niece is like, Elizabeth Debicki. Like, oh, like, maybe we can be even

00:26:07.980 more ambitious about her anyway so they were like okay here's what's happening we're gonna send her 1.00

00:26:14.000 to royal court because she is like so impressive like like both in her like intelligence and her

00:26:19.340 charm but also just like she's six feet tall and very cool and so they're like well this is going 1.00

00:26:26.860 to help us convince someone really important to marry her and so she shipped off from the convent

00:26:31.540 to hang out with a french royal family and their courtiers and everybody met her there and they

00:26:37.960 all really liked her and this is the thing that kind of happens to her in a couple different

00:26:41.820 circumstances like i think she just her social skills were good like i think she was just charming 0.56

00:26:46.440 she was interesting like people just liked her she had the sort of personality and also you know

00:26:52.580 i don't know like you could be six feet tall and i don't know it's not like a princess diana thing

00:26:57.540 where she was like tall but initially she was so shy like i think marie was very tall and confident

00:27:02.100 so of course she like people take attention and also they knew who her parents were yes

00:27:07.740 The newer parents were, and she was Elizabeth Debicki.

00:27:10.860 And she was smart.

00:27:11.620 And she was interesting.

00:27:12.460 So, like, she had the whole package.

00:27:14.520 And she became really good friends with the king's daughters.

00:27:16.880 The princess is Marguerite and Madelaine.

00:27:20.100 And so they became sort of a trio.

00:27:22.780 But it's really, like, they're all similar age.

00:27:25.460 But they're also, no one else is at that same stature of, like, importance.

00:27:29.660 So.

00:27:30.820 And their dads were friends.

00:27:32.500 Their dads are friends.

00:27:33.320 And they became friends.

00:27:35.060 But also, this is just all, this is all good news.

00:27:37.320 for marie and like her marriage prospects because that's what her uncles are thinking about it's

00:27:41.780 like the more impressive she is the more impressive a husband they're going to be able to get for her

00:27:46.060 this is a theme this is this is a theme and what i am trying to do with this season

00:27:56.060 is like last time we talked about i was talking about margaret tudor and that that that's sort

00:28:02.940 of like a foreshadowing of just like the asshole Scottish lords what's it like coming as an

00:28:07.280 outsider into Scottish court but also Margaret Tudor and kind of her whole situation like she's 0.99

00:28:11.900 got that Tudor trademark just like disaster love life and that becomes a part of what happens with

00:28:18.420 Mary Queen of Scots but from the French side what Mary Queen of Scots is getting from her mother and

00:28:23.360 what I think we'll see from Marie de Guise is just like this really um she gets it like she's smart

00:28:30.100 like she um they can always see the angle yeah yeah she's really smart but also like this whole

00:28:36.300 french angle like when you see how marie de guise does so well in french court we're going to see

00:28:40.920 later how does she do at scottish court differently but like what what skill set makes you thrive in 0.62

00:28:46.580 the french royal court are not skills that make you thrive elsewhere necessarily especially not 0.91

00:28:51.520 the scottish court but having french back of the french had like the de guises in particular had

00:28:58.800 ideas like they they were not happy just being small dukedoms like they were going to take over 0.69

00:29:04.380 the whole world and that's the thing yeah like that marie was part of that she was different 0.54

00:29:13.020 from all the rest of her family but she was part of that and and her her role in that was scotland

00:29:19.320 but not at this point at this point her role in that was get us more power and she was like okay

00:29:24.660 cool down yeah yeah she's just like i think they lucked out frankly that like their eldest niece

00:29:33.060 marie well like when they were so ambitious like that she was so exactly like genuinely like she

00:29:38.900 wasn't pretending i don't think like she was just genuinely exactly the sort of young woman you want

00:29:42.920 to be sending to royal court at this time because everyone just thinks she's great and i'm assuming

00:29:48.640 these are the bourbons not the lorraine's uh yes bourbon uncles which again the bourbons are

00:29:56.140 eventually going to get their own and her uncles would be like one of them is the grandfather of

00:30:05.600 of henry of navarre and like these these are these are impressive very impressive dudes in

00:30:14.120 their own right yeah no every male relative she has is like got some sort of job title

00:30:21.300 so this is all at the same time as when as we discussed in the margarita episode so king james

00:30:27.720 the fifth of scotland was he's looking for a wife and for catholic alliance reasons he was like it

00:30:34.940 would be great if i got a wife who was french royalty um just to really so france can you

00:30:42.420 explain france and scotland is it just they both hated england why are they allied so strongly

00:30:49.920 because they both hate england like honestly 90 of anything anybody does at this point is because

00:30:55.200 they hate either england or spain um so they they got along because they were the like uh

00:31:05.780 when you're at war with somebody it's usually best to be at war with somebody on the opposite

00:31:09.900 side of them so that their attention split and then have different skill sets so the scottish 0.73

00:31:15.520 are very very good at land wars like that that is their thing so much so that the romans are like

00:31:21.660 yeah we're not going over this line this is not our problem like that's that's their reputation

00:31:26.440 from from the beginning of time they they are they're sea people but they're not the english

00:31:31.920 were navy like that was the english kind of became the navy people scotland's very very very very

00:31:39.360 good at land wars because they're more like guerrillas guerrilla fighters than the the

00:31:44.100 formal pitched battle thing france had the navy france had um especially even at this time like

00:31:51.620 england was not the england that we know now of like the england of a hundred years after this

00:31:57.660 point where they had like the super strong navy and the english oaks um gave them dominance over

00:32:03.380 the sea they were getting there but they weren't there yet so france had the navy and scotland had

00:32:08.940 The land war. And so tying together, they could get around England and kind of pincer move them was the dream, the dream fight against England.

00:32:23.100 And now we're just going to take a break for a word from our sponsors.

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00:32:58.040 Welcome to the realms of peril and glory.

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00:33:27.560 The war is over, and both sides lost.

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00:34:13.760 Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark every Thursday night at 8 p.m. Eastern on youtube.com slash the glass cannon with the podcast version dropping the next day.

00:34:24.320 See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark.

00:34:31.300 Reality TV is messy.

00:34:33.660 Pop culture is louder than ever.

00:34:35.500 And the internet, completely unhinged.

00:34:38.180 Welcome to Roxanne and Chantel, the podcast where cousins Roxanne and Chantel break down

00:34:43.140 reality TV, celebrity drama, and the stories everyone's texting about.

00:34:47.440 We recap the shows, spill the headlines, and sit down with the stars themselves.

00:34:51.860 no filter no boring takes just the tea new episodes every week if it's trending we're

00:34:59.420 talking about it this is roxanne and chanteau let's get into it and we're back and this is

00:35:08.400 such a crucial part of the mary queen of scott situation is the scotland france connection so

00:35:14.280 James shows up and this is James who is the son of Margaret Tudor. So this is the like

00:35:21.520 psychologically damaged person who had been torn back and forth between his evil stepfather who

00:35:30.000 kept kidnapping him. He hates Henry VIII, like that guy. Anyway, he had all these, I talked about

00:35:37.880 this in the Margaret Tudor episode, but like he had a lot of illegitimate children, but he needed

00:35:41.600 some legitimate children.

00:35:43.300 So he came in and he met.

00:35:45.180 So there's the three besties. 0.99

00:35:46.900 You've got the two princesses, 0.99

00:35:49.220 Marguerite and Madelaine,

00:35:50.580 and then Marie de Guise is there,

00:35:52.140 who's their bestie.

00:35:54.300 So he, I think,

00:35:56.080 I wrote this down,

00:35:57.060 so I'm sure I read it somewhere.

00:35:58.540 He was like, oh my God.

00:35:59.980 You walk in the room and you're like,

00:36:00.920 ooh, that one, Elizabeth Debicki.

00:36:03.720 But they're like, oh no,

00:36:04.580 she's not actually one of the princesses.

00:36:05.940 You need to choose one of the other two.

00:36:08.020 But he was like,

00:36:09.260 he noticed her because everybody did.

00:36:11.600 And so they're like, maybe you want to marry this princess, Marguerite, who is like not actively dying of tuberculosis.

00:36:19.400 And he's like, no, I choose Princess Madelaine, the one who is like sickly.

00:36:23.840 And like, we've talked about tuberculosis weirdly a lot lately on this podcast.

00:36:28.000 But could you just remind everybody about tuberculosis and how it manifests?

00:36:32.540 Yes.

00:36:32.920 actually if you're on tiktok and you follow john green he's doing a very amazing job of explaining

00:36:39.240 how all of human history is about tuberculosis mostly european history but still lots of human

00:36:45.360 history is about the influence of tuberculosis and how it ruins things but tuberculosis is a

00:36:52.180 disease that's kind of relapsing remitting which means that it it kind of starts and it's really

00:36:58.180 really bad and then it goes away and it comes it acts up again and goes away and basically each

00:37:02.920 time it like you have it for for years like it's you have it you you you can have it can kill you

00:37:09.160 very quickly especially have you if you have a weakened immune system but if you have a strong

00:37:13.560 immune system that means you waste away over possibly even decades and it kills every time

00:37:20.280 it relapses it kills part of your lung and so each time it's done and it goes away you have less

00:37:27.380 lung than you did before. So that's why like in, in America, in the old West, they were called

00:37:34.720 lungers. There were people that were just losing their ability to breathe. They breathe very heavy.

00:37:41.420 So, but when you don't have enough oxygen, like when the bottom of your lungs that starts dying

00:37:47.280 pretty fast is where a lot of the oxygen comes from the air exchange. So basically you start

00:37:52.860 choking to death very, very, very slowly over a very long period of time or shorter, depending

00:37:58.980 on how good your immune system is and how good you're, you're coping with the lack of oxygen.

00:38:04.140 So the thing with princess Madeline is so, as you just described, like, so she had tuberculosis,

00:38:09.740 but she, one more thing. Yes, please. Sorry. What it's, it's only transmissible,

00:38:16.200 like in the very early stages, like, even though it acts up again, you aren't, you aren't,

00:38:21.180 you aren't contagious so it's it's only transmissible during parts of it so you can

00:38:27.000 be married to someone who actively is having about and you you may not even get sick exactly

00:38:32.760 exactly so when he's trying to decide who to marry like the concern with princess madelaine

00:38:36.820 was less like she has tuberculosis well okay and you will get it too yeah so that wasn't a concern

00:38:44.780 the concern was like firstly it's like is this teenage girl going to be able to like

00:38:49.660 have you know 12 of your children when she like is ill but also is she gonna like actively survive

00:38:56.080 the like boat trip to scotland and scotland itself because it's not a very good climate

00:39:02.880 for if you have a lung disease it's a cold very moist damp climate yeah yeah which is interesting

00:39:10.080 because so after i posted the margaret tudor episode like her the one most famous portrait

00:39:16.100 of margaret tudor is her and she's got this little marmoset like monkey creature with her

00:39:21.180 and i was like poor thing i know so then i googled i was like is this are marmosets okay pets and

00:39:28.140 what i read was basically like the uk whatever you know animal control was like no these are

00:39:34.940 not good pets but they also said like if you're gonna have a marmoset as a pet like it needs to

00:39:38.120 live in like a warm tropical climate so i'm just like scotland like the marmoset that's in that

00:39:45.160 portrait, how long did that marmoset live? I don't know. So anyway, tuberculosis-ridden princesses

00:39:52.060 like marmosets don't thrive in Scotland. So anyway, James chose Madeline because he just,

00:39:57.760 whatever, he chose her. And then she did not do well on the sea voyage. She fell ill shortly

00:40:03.180 after arriving in Scotland and died six months later. So James needed another bride and he was 0.84

00:40:10.160 like what about that her tall friend so meanwhile princess marguerite the other like princess had

00:40:15.960 already been married to somebody else but unfortunately for james marie had been married

00:40:21.220 to somebody already obviously because we know she's the mother of mary queen of scots this

00:40:27.460 marriage is not gonna last anyway so who she married was a man called louis dorleans or louis

00:40:34.660 the second d'Orléans do you know anything about him like he's a duke or he I mean he dies real

00:40:41.120 fast so no he himself no but the the Duke de Longville is like the Duke de Longville comes up

00:40:49.360 like that title comes up a lot and Orléans um the Orléans family also comes up a lot in France

00:40:57.540 um they are oh gracious i you're asking me all the good stuff and i should have looked up this

00:41:08.580 first no but this is fine like i mean i think knowing everything that we've said so far about

00:41:11.920 marie d's how ambitious her family is it's like we know that the guy she married was like the top

00:41:16.080 guy like there was no other more eligible husband for her to potentially marry than this guy like

00:41:21.040 he's no he's yeah he's like they're like it's French nobility it's a duke um he was it's oh

00:41:28.520 sorry Duke d'Orléans the Duke d'Orléans is usually a title granted to the king of France's brother

00:41:35.240 because that's how influential this family comes over time yeah at this point it's it's just a

00:41:41.340 regular old peerage like it's it's the house of Valois Valois Orléans so they're like really

00:41:47.380 closely related to the king and queen yeah so again it's like marie this is as close as she

00:41:53.260 could get to marrying the king basically he was also only five years older than her which for

00:41:59.260 this podcast and this discussion is great that age gap you love to see it anyway so i mean we

00:42:06.280 obviously don't know like what was the marriage like but what i will say is that she um she was

00:42:12.600 married when she was about 19 years old. He died two years later, and she kept his final letter to

00:42:18.760 her and carried it around with her for the rest of her life, which indicates some affection.

00:42:24.320 And in fact, you can visit this letter and some of her other correspondents at the National

00:42:28.700 Library of Scotland. And I will note that her handwriting is beautiful, but of course it is,

00:42:36.100 because she was just sort of like, I don't know, you know, she was just an impressive

00:42:41.680 person to everybody.

00:42:43.640 Like the fact that she got the attention of,

00:42:46.240 anyway, of course her handwriting is like beautiful.

00:42:49.100 So anyway. 0.68

00:42:50.260 She was raised by nuns.

00:42:51.940 You know what?

00:42:53.100 She wrote a lot of lines.

00:42:54.180 Yeah.

00:42:55.040 So she's now 21, pregnant, a widow,

00:42:58.320 and she had already had one son with her husband.

00:43:02.720 So her first son was called Francis.

00:43:05.320 And then her second son was named Louis after his dead father.

00:43:08.880 But then Louis died in infancy.

00:43:11.680 And she gave birth just a few months after her husband's death.

00:43:14.760 So she is now, you know, she has one alive son, one dead son.

00:43:20.500 She's 21, pregnant and a widow.

00:43:23.400 And the alive son becomes a duke himself, like the Duke de Longville.

00:43:28.060 Yeah, he does very well for himself, which is interesting.

00:43:31.280 So that son is going to, in a few years, be the half-brother of Mary, Queen of Scots.

00:43:36.800 Right.

00:43:37.120 And he was also raised by Antoinette.

00:43:39.580 So like he becomes part of the whole De Geese conspiracy.

00:43:44.560 Yeah, no, he's involved.

00:43:46.080 So yeah, any man in the De Geese family

00:43:51.380 is going to be part of the De Geese conspiracy.

00:43:54.660 So anyway, so every eligible bachelor in France

00:43:57.220 and other countries were basically flinging themselves

00:43:59.860 at her family being like, 0.99

00:44:02.200 please let us be the next husband of this woman. 1.00

00:44:04.340 She is so tall and cool and interesting.

00:44:09.580 her handwriting is beautiful like oh my god please has all the right family all of it yeah yeah and

00:44:15.500 i mean her family is only i'm assuming getting more and more powerful as years go by no by this

00:44:21.180 point like she already has she has at least a couple bishops um two dukes yeah it's getting

00:44:28.540 scary powerful and then also the fact that she's 21 she's had two successful pregnancies like people 0.91

00:44:34.720 know she's like young she's fertile like we can have like she's like her job is to have somebody's 0.86

00:44:39.520 children, right? So anyway, so of the eligible bachelors of Europe who are Catholic, James V, 0.87

00:44:46.700 King of Scotland, is one of them. And so his options, like he really wanted to marry someone

00:44:52.580 else, French, because the whole Scotland-France alliance situation, but the two princesses,

00:44:57.840 well, Madeleine dead, Marguerite already married, and she's the next best thing to princess. But

00:45:02.680 another king was interested in marrying Marie de Guise, and that king was Henry VIII.

00:45:09.520 so and we all know how much he likes being turned out so just to put so it's

00:45:17.560 henry the eighth was often between wives right so but this situation was just this was all

00:45:24.060 happening so anne boleyn has been beheaded jane seymour has died but anne of cleaves has not

00:45:31.780 happened yet so it's between jane seymour and anne of cleaves if you're familiar with

00:45:36.180 the musical six and if you will recall henry the eighth and james the fifth of scotland

00:45:43.080 hate each other they have a long-standing rivalry for various reasons including how henry the eighth

00:45:51.720 conspired with his stepfather to have james kidnapped as a teenager so these two men and

00:45:58.580 and mary's not just hot and tall and hot she's also proven fertile yeah and king hero the eighth

00:46:05.160 we know he wants he wants those sons and both of them are like nope need that yeah yeah well 0.99

00:46:12.280 also I think the tallness speaks to her overall like health you know and maybe ability to and her

00:46:18.960 mother had had 12 children like it's just this like she's checking off taking off all the boxes

00:46:23.700 so these two kings these become the kind of main contenders and who not that Henry's ever really

00:46:28.820 a contender but these are the two guys who are the most serious about pursuing her so basically

00:46:35.200 she was she was not gonna let it be henry the eighth well partially because this is after ann

00:46:41.000 boleyn so like he's not catholic anymore um so like her family was not gonna let her marry

00:46:46.700 a not catholic king so apparently henry the eighth said something along the lines of like i want

00:46:52.500 I want a big I like a big girl um I want a tall wife and she said quote I may be a big woman but

00:47:00.960 I have a very little neck which was about how Henry had very famously beheaded Anne Boleyn

00:47:08.540 anyway so Marie was so important and again this isn't like I don't want to make anyone think like

00:47:13.360 she was going to decide for herself like the French king was going to choose her husband like

00:47:17.460 that's the level of importance that this person is at but he wasn't going to complete

00:47:22.120 he wasn't going to completely ignore his her family's wishes though either oh exactly this is

00:47:26.780 it's also really important to know in the political climate of france that this is not

00:47:34.720 louis catorce the sun king this is political dude who has to negotiate with all of the dukes around

00:47:42.480 him to have enough money to do what he needs to do so like the whole absolute power thing was a

00:47:49.880 reaction to how powerful the dukes had been for the last several hundred years. And this is that

00:47:54.400 several hundred years where the dukes are extremely powerful. And the most powerful dukes

00:47:58.760 are the digieses at this point, I would assume. They're getting there. I mean, they're, they're

00:48:05.400 the, the highest, they're the highest ranked nobles of the non-royal family. Yeah. And, um,

00:48:12.380 they're, they're just like getting title after title after title.

00:48:15.840 so the french king also notably hates henry the eighth which because who wouldn't who doesn't

00:48:24.800 anyway so he was like okay i choose james and so marie de guise was engaged to be married to james

00:48:31.000 the king of scotland she was not happy about this because she didn't want to leave france to go to

00:48:37.580 scotland and again i really want to say i really want to emphasize i love scotland i have visited

00:48:42.660 scotland i have family who lives in scotland my ancestors are from scotland but it's like

00:48:48.760 my great-grandfather was scotland all all love to scotland um love but scotland circa

00:48:58.420 15 what is this i don't know 40 um if you're like to live with john knox yeah it's just kind of like

00:49:08.440 it's cold it's like didn't we have yeah in the margaret tudor episode there's also there was

00:49:12.640 the duke of albany who was in france and they're like can you come to scotland be the regent and

00:49:16.660 he was like no why would i do that it was it was a backwater yeah i mean it was it was strategically

00:49:23.740 important for their war against finally getting rid of england but it was also a backwater it

00:49:30.040 wasn't it wasn't considered civilization yeah and it's very far away and it was cold and damp

00:49:36.600 um and she she'd been living like in the ultimate best homes in france you know so she didn't want

00:49:46.300 to leave france because why would she her first her first marriage was at the louvre yeah she's um

00:49:54.300 anyway so she doesn't want to leave france for various reasons like most of them obvious but

00:49:58.980 part of part of this also is like her son her son was in france and she wasn't allowed to bring him

00:50:03.720 to Scotland. So she's going to be separated from her like baby son, who was like the son of her

00:50:07.840 like dead husband. All of her family and friends were in France, but she didn't get a veto in this

00:50:14.100 scenario. So all the best that her family could do for her was to get the best possible prenup

00:50:20.900 and her uncles slash maybe at this point brothers, her male relatives stepped in and they did a great

00:50:26.480 job lending her as good a deal as if she'd literally been a princess like she got the best

00:50:32.680 possible paperwork for this marriage, including a clause that if James died before her, she'd get

00:50:37.880 to keep lots of land in Scotland. Like she wouldn't just be kicked out. And so she, she heads to

00:50:46.320 Scotland. And I think this is a nice moment for her new mother-in-law, Margaret Tudor, who's just

00:50:53.360 like, oh my God, finally someone cool. Someone I can have a conversation with. Oh my gosh. Like

00:51:01.000 we both hate henry the eighth um we both hate scotland neither of us wants to be here and they

00:51:07.340 hit it off right away like just they're both smart they're both so smart they're both so capable um

00:51:14.560 they're both i just feel like like historically this is true like the two of them like got along

00:51:19.120 um and they were both just didn't want to be in this was not a good place to be a cool woman who 0.97

00:51:25.100 was also very smart yeah lairds don't like that so much no the asshole scottish lords were not 0.99

00:51:30.840 welcoming to marie diggies um because they hated women so um can we talk about john knox for a 0.98

00:51:38.480 minute you knew you were gonna do this to me i'm not gonna make you explain john knox but like i

00:51:45.880 believe he's on the scene at this point so john knox john knox was a preacher who well i don't

00:51:55.760 know what was a protestant he was he was he was a calvinist he was like the most protestant like

00:52:06.040 he was okay so um there's there's a lot of like variation in protestantism and i i i have a lot

00:52:15.540 of church history because i was raised extremely um conservative sect protestant uh on two sides

00:52:23.400 and so one side of my family was lutheran um and so and so lutheranism is like catholics got it

00:52:31.360 catholics miss like they start they were okay at first and then they kind of started making

00:52:36.860 mistakes it's kind of like the lutheran where lutheran comes in and so there's like big bands

00:52:41.600 of Lutheranism that go all the way to the modern evangelical version of Lutherism, and

00:52:46.540 then the old conservative version of Lutherism, which is basically Catholic without the stations

00:52:51.320 of the cross, with priests being able to marry, and a fundamental understanding of person-based

00:52:58.320 faith as opposed to actions.

00:53:01.600 But one side of my family was convinced I was going to hell because I wasn't catechized

00:53:06.620 in Lutheran church.

00:53:07.480 So like Lutheranism is like basically Catholic light.

00:53:11.860 And I know I'm going to get like actual Lutherans would fight me for that.

00:53:15.920 But, you know, it's it is what it is, especially during this period, because it wasn't that far away from the Reformation. 0.73

00:53:22.840 And then there was Henry VIII and Henry VIII's version of Protestantism is I get all of that stuff that the Catholics have and we'll figure out a religion along the way.

00:53:34.180 But that was like so, so political.

00:53:37.120 It's like his version was kind of like, it's like Catholic, but instead of the Pope, there's me.

00:53:43.280 That's the only difference.

00:53:45.340 And then there was this guy called John Calvin who came along and he's like, nope, everything about this is wrong.

00:53:52.980 I'm going all the way back.

00:53:55.440 And he started rebuilding a religion around the old churches, the old churches of the Bible.

00:54:01.600 So like what Paul was talking about in the New Testament.

00:54:08.200 And so his churches are very, like when you think of, they're very, very, very, very conservative.

00:54:17.500 And they're puritanistic.

00:54:20.720 They're very insular, very closed communities.

00:54:24.120 And so John Knox looks at all of these options and goes, Calvin, that's the one.

00:54:31.600 I'm going to bring super closed, very, very strict, not Catholic things to Scotland.

00:54:39.600 So I was just checking, double checking some dates because I don't want to put him on the 0.91

00:54:43.700 scene too early. But Marie de Guise became Queen of Scotland in 1538. And John Knox really takes

00:54:52.660 off about eight years later. So he's there. He's there, but he's not super active at this point.

00:55:00.860 he's he's still figuring out all of his stuff so she came when 1538 1538 so yeah it's 1556 when

00:55:10.240 beaten dies so john knox is gonna be this is kind of i guess we're foreshadowing he's as mary queen

00:55:16.560 of scots grows up he's getting more powerful but like it's not just he didn't come on the scene

00:55:21.880 and like suddenly everybody changed their mind it's like people were primed and ready to follow

00:55:26.540 him he just had he was he was still catholic at the time yeah he was like but is catholic the

00:55:33.820 right thing yeah he's like he's like figuring out his own stuff but that there were people around

00:55:40.240 that were talking about the reformed churches that they were trying to they were they were

00:55:45.240 trying to figure out their own version of the reformation were they going to be protestant

00:55:48.420 because they weren't going to be anglican yeah it was not going to happen but is it lutheranism

00:55:53.560 is it something else? They were starting to question the influence of the Catholic Church

00:55:57.820 because the Catholic Church is very, very far away from Scotland. And this is the thing. So this is

00:56:02.740 like, I think the crucial part of this at this point for this story is Marie de Guise, super

00:56:08.200 Catholic. Her family, super Catholic. And like buddies with the Pope kind of Catholic. Yeah,

00:56:14.960 yeah. Like she's like, there's no suggestion that she's ever going to convert. Two of her siblings

00:56:21.720 were cardinals yeah no she like just the highest you can get without being pope could not be the

00:56:26.780 more catholic and so just imagining her arriving in scotland and that's who she is and at this

00:56:32.980 point like scotland hasn't settled but it's kind of like what's our religion gonna be so just bear

00:56:38.000 in mind that like that's where she's coming from and scotland's just kind of like let's see where

00:56:42.560 we're gonna go with this vis-a-vis religion so even when they were catholic they were not

00:56:47.400 that Catholic. No, no, no, exactly. No. Um, so she came on the scene and again,

00:56:54.040 she doesn't really fit in, but she's like resilient. She's got skills. She's got her

00:57:01.300 mother-in-law's cool. Anyway. So she had two sons pretty early on in her marriage. They were 0.76

00:57:09.820 named James and Robert, but then they both died in infancy. They actually both died on the same

00:57:14.500 day. So she came there in 1538, had a baby, had another baby. And then in 1541, one of her sons

00:57:21.800 was eight days old. The other one wasn't quite a year old yet. And they both died on the same day.

00:57:27.360 So she now had experienced three infant deaths. She was separated from her one alive son who was

00:57:35.700 back in France. They exchanged letters all the time, her son in France. And again, those are

00:57:39.860 some of the letters that we have of hers that are in the museum. And then one year later,

00:57:44.500 Marie had a daughter who she named Mary after herself.

00:57:50.180 So we haven't had this in a while in the podcast,

00:57:52.240 but if you do have the bingo card at home,

00:57:54.640 names daughter after self is one of the squares.

00:57:57.500 So she's Marie de Guise.

00:57:58.960 She calls her daughter Mary.

00:58:00.520 I'm going to guess she probably pronounced it Marie.

00:58:03.520 And then six days later, her husband died.

00:58:09.160 And all hell broke loose.

00:58:10.980 And this is how Mary, who is Mary, Queen of Scots,

00:58:14.140 became married queen of scots age six days and this is so a whole new thing is starting up which

00:58:23.920 is um marie de guise is now a widow again and the new queen of scots is a girl who is also a baby

00:58:32.560 which the lairds love uh love love love having a queen being raised by a queen couldn't couldn't

00:58:41.580 be happier about it couldn't be happier about uh i mean we're being extremely sarcastic to be clear 0.99

00:58:48.940 because the asshole scottish lores they hate women anyway anyway so we've got this little baby 0.98

00:58:57.760 six-day-old queen so meanwhile henry the eighth is still the king of england um don't worry he 0.99

00:59:04.560 wasn't like oh i'll marry this baby no but what he wanted to do is he wanted to arrange a marriage

00:59:09.140 between baby Mary Queen of Scots

00:59:11.180 and his son, Edward.

00:59:13.320 And then Henry VIII was again single as well. 0.81

00:59:16.140 So this is the point.

00:59:17.780 So Catherine Howard had been executed,

00:59:20.200 but this is before he married Catherine Parr.

00:59:23.200 So he was again between wives.

00:59:24.880 And he was like,

00:59:25.640 what if we do like a two for one deal?

00:59:27.860 What if my son Edward marries this six day old baby?

00:59:31.120 And then I, Henry VIII,

00:59:32.520 will marry Marie de Guise,

00:59:33.780 who's tall and beautiful.

00:59:35.100 And we'll just be like a Renaissance Brady Bunch.

00:59:38.240 And the region to the time goes, 0.69

00:59:39.440 sure, let's do it.

00:59:42.840 That is not what happened.

00:59:44.740 No.

00:59:46.120 So Marie is now Dowager, Queen of Scots.

00:59:49.260 And she's in a situation like her, 0.63

00:59:51.840 her Diggy's male relatives did not come with her to Scotland

00:59:55.780 because no one wanted to go to Scotland.

00:59:58.860 Because they were too important for that.

01:00:01.140 They were too important for that.

01:00:02.020 And also it's cold there.

01:00:03.560 So she's just like,

01:00:05.060 this is where she steps into her own

01:00:07.520 independent power and she was just like no i'm not gonna marry you henry the eighth 0.99

01:00:12.220 fuck off no and i'm also not gonna engage my daughter to your son like no this is not a thing 0.99

01:00:18.720 that is gonna happen um henry the eighth as we know deals really well with being told no 1.00

01:00:25.520 and so he basically went to war against scotland to try and force marie to let her baby daughter

01:00:33.020 marry his son okay i am going to correct you please the regent at the time said yes oh the

01:00:39.700 regent the regent in scotland the regent of mary the the the cousin that again i have i have weird

01:00:48.120 knowledge of scotland but it is not of marina geese um no this is the rough wooing which means

01:00:53.560 um yeah because he was super pro england the guy who was the regent was pro england okay

01:00:59.060 so who is this is this james hamilton um give me two seconds i know i have a note here saying that

01:01:07.780 you were no i have a region was put in place to run the country for her the guy chosen was named

01:01:12.720 james hamilton and marie hated him that's my notes yeah and he was like he was super pro england he

01:01:18.300 went down and he agreed to it he brought it back and like this is the one time the lairds and

01:01:22.460 married god like a great marie agreed they're like uh no this is not happening and that's why

01:01:28.140 henry's like well but you agreed to it and they're like did we though and then yeah so this is hate

01:01:35.260 this dude no so this becomes like a huge catholic scotland protestant england war and it's called

01:01:40.880 the war of the rough wooing which is a great name of a war and it's all about henry the eighth

01:01:49.140 wanting to marry his son to marie's daughter and it's also it wasn't named that at the time it

01:01:56.260 wasn't it has been named that since uh england took over scotland and like they were downplaying

01:02:02.960 how much like a genocide this was oh like they're like oh it's the rough wooing like it's it's not

01:02:09.120 a war it's a rough wooing yeah yeah and yeah no this is many one of the many times where

01:02:16.640 they went back and they renamed something to just make it sound a little bit better for what

01:02:21.380 england was doing okay so the war of the rough wooing which is a good name because retroactively

01:02:25.680 someone gave it that name to make it sound cute but in fact was a genocidal war yeah so the regent

01:02:31.600 for little baby mary was a guy named james hamilton marie hated him she attempted a coup

01:02:36.060 to have him removed but was unsuccessful this time i have a note here saying that she uh

01:02:44.000 she got her own special like fashion armor and especially painted spear i don't think she was

01:02:50.420 100 not in the battles but she was just being like i don't know here's my war outfit look at

01:02:57.460 me i'm amazing she did go out to take a peek at the battle but her group of like looky loos 0.98

01:03:04.340 got too close um and 16 of her armed guards were killed so not a great choice she made there 1.00

01:03:12.740 yeah anyway but she was so grateful to the guards who protected her that day she gave a reward of

01:03:17.380 one month's wages to one particular guy who helped her out a lot um and if this i my notes here if 0.70

01:03:23.340 this was a romance novel they would have fallen in love but that is not what happens because she 0.66

01:03:27.180 was not here for love affairs that's not what she's into she's done that she's she's busy 1.00

01:03:33.820 what was she busy doing arranging the engagement of her baby daughter to

01:03:38.980 prince francis the dauphin the heir to the throne in france so she wants to just like really cement 0.77

01:03:47.900 this french scotland partnership but also because she was so she was effectively a princess she

01:03:56.260 married a king so like of course her daughter who is a queen is going to marry someone who's going

01:03:59.920 to become a king uh francis the dauphin was a similar age also a baby um and his parents well

01:04:07.780 his mother was Catherine de Medici, who we're going to talk about in another whole series of

01:04:13.120 podcasts. So I'm holding back. Lana will be there for these episodes as well. So just know.

01:04:21.500 And I, and there will be a lot more De Geese content in that one too.

01:04:25.320 See, it's important that we're explaining what the De Geese is here because like anything France

01:04:29.060 in this era, there's De Geeses are there. So anyway, but this, this happened, like this marriage

01:04:33.400 was arranged. And so little Mary, who was probably at this point, not a baby, probably a toddler,

01:04:38.840 was sent off to France to grow up among the de Guises and the French royal family. And so she

01:04:45.780 grew up alongside the French royal family, but we'll talk about that later. So now Marie de Guise

01:04:51.620 separated like her other child now in France. She's still in Scotland, but kind of like...

01:04:57.420 No, go ahead.

01:04:58.440 when she went to drop off the baby that's when francis died when she she dropped off mary and

01:05:05.260 her older son was sick oh no and so she she was there when her other son died and helped him like 0.59

01:05:13.680 helped him through his final illness so she basically dropped off one kid to get married

01:05:17.760 to the king of france the future king of france and helped the other one die and then went back

01:05:22.840 call oh my god this woman's life so that's context to face what's coming next great point um i think

01:05:31.020 we can't not consider her ongoing trauma from all this child death separating from her children and

01:05:39.860 then having to go back to scotland so it's it reminds me of in the margaret tudor saga where 0.99

01:05:44.520 she's just like okay i'm in scotland fuck everyone like i have no fucks to give i'm here by myself 1.00

01:05:53.220 you're all assholes like let's go you're really bad at this you're all really really bad at this 1.00

01:05:58.760 getting along thing yeah and she's just like margaret tudor she's also just like so smart 1.00

01:06:03.140 so capable and everyone's like a woman i don't think so and she's just like oh fuck everybody 0.97

01:06:08.220 So it's like, and then again, this motif will recur later this season as well. 0.99

01:06:17.200 So we're going to end things there.

01:06:19.260 Next week, we'll be back with part two of Marie DeGuees and what she got up to.

01:06:24.940 And I have a new segment I want to do in this podcast.

01:06:28.340 I'd hope that things will go like this because we're taking sort of a leisurely pace this season.

01:06:32.880 You know, we have the Mary Creme Scots episodes and we have the super specials in between.

01:06:36.160 And that really leaves people time to send me some feedback. And I have some feedback

01:06:39.980 that I want to read. Because first of all, in the Murga Tudor episode, I was talking,

01:06:45.960 I think I asked a question about England and Scotland and them always being at war.

01:06:50.300 And Rachel Foxton on Twitter gave me some or sent me some messages that are interesting

01:06:55.440 contacts I want to share with you. So Rachel says, to answer the question you asked in the

01:06:59.300 last episode, yes, England and Scotland were basically on again, off again at war until

01:07:03.480 the Jacobite rising. It was the same with England and Wales until Henry Tudor, basically just England

01:07:08.220 being greedy and wanting to conquer. There's still some underlying tensions, especially when you think

01:07:12.480 about what England took away from Scotland and Wales, and Cornwall, including language. It's

01:07:16.640 unsurprising really that the question of independence is raised every few years. But there has been a

01:07:21.180 resurgence in Scottish, Welsh, and Cornish people reclaiming their heritage, the native languages

01:07:25.420 are being learned and spoken, events revived, and the historical bias is no longer in favor of

01:07:29.920 England. I'm quite proud to be a part of that. And that was Rachel, who is on Twitter at 5-2

01:07:35.540 Foxton, and it's five and two are spelled out like words. And then also, I've been messaging

01:07:41.340 back and forth with a creator who I first encountered on Instagram, and she's also on

01:07:47.260 YouTube. Her name is E.K. Splane. Well, her name is E.K., and her account is E.K. Splane.

01:07:53.300 And she posts these incredible reels on Instagram. After every Mary Queen of Scots episode, I have

01:07:59.880 been posting, sharing some of them, but you should follow her anyway, because she did her

01:08:03.620 dissertation on Margaret Tudor, Queen of Scots. And she is, she's just, I don't know, in like a

01:08:08.580 10 to 15 second reel, just like she nails it. Anyway, so you should follow her on Instagram

01:08:12.800 at EKSplain. And here's the message that she sent me contextualizing the whole thing with Margaret

01:08:18.400 Tudor that we talked about in those episodes, about how there's allegedly something in James's

01:08:24.060 will saying that if she got married, she wouldn't be the region anymore. And here's what EK told me

01:08:28.900 about it. So this is long, but it's good. So it is generally assumed. And again, this is I'm

01:08:34.840 reading from what EK had to say. It is generally assumed based on the actions of her contemporaries

01:08:40.100 that James IV specified Margaret remaining unmarried as a condition of her regency and

01:08:44.480 guardianship of her son. This assumption is natural and taken as wrote by almost every

01:08:48.560 historian since. But it was not without question. A Victorian scholar named Mary Ann Everett Green

01:08:53.180 questioned it, but this question has rarely followed up. And merits little mention in both

01:08:57.140 scholarly and popular historiography. Green argues that while we are told by historians

01:09:01.300 that James's will explicitly made her regency contingent on remaining unmarried, none of her

01:09:05.800 contemporaries that I know of, that's EK, refer to it this way. Green argues, and this is backed

01:09:10.860 up by the records of the regency government, that it was in fact legal custom that excluded

01:09:15.220 Margaret from the role. In Scotland, when a widow with children remarried, her right to raise her 0.94

01:09:19.620 children as she saw fit became limited, presumably because her new husband was now considered the 0.98

01:09:24.100 head of the family this council of scotland this is me the asshole scottish lords this is ek again 0.87

01:09:30.300 on september 18th 1514 wrote that margaret lost the office of two tricks because she has contracted 0.96

01:09:37.600 marriage and oh my gosh this is a this is written in old scots a language i do not speak basically

01:09:44.980 what it says is because she has contracted marriage through which the office of tutor

01:09:48.940 ceased in her conforming to the laws of the realm so the laws of the realm not james's will which

01:09:53.980 we don't have a copy of. The Asshole Lords, every time I say asshole, that's me, that's not E.K. 0.99

01:09:59.320 The Asshole Lords would later argue that the realm of Scotland was not something that could 0.99

01:10:02.600 be bequeathed in any will, even that of a king. But this was something Margaret, of course,

01:10:06.880 refused to accept. Now, E.K. says, I've never seen a copy of James's will. I've never seen anyone,

01:10:12.660 not Margaret's contemporaries, not historians in the last 500 years, quote directly from it,

01:10:16.440 or reference any of its particulars. We simply hear, he named her region on the condition she

01:10:20.920 remain unmarried. But could Margaret have been right? It's somewhat moot, but if she was right, 0.99

01:10:25.400 James' faith in his young wife is further demonstrated. On the one hand, he might not

01:10:29.120 have felt the need to mention remarriage at all, because he knew the law would do so for him. But

01:10:33.780 what if he didn't specify it because he trusted her? Trusted her to do right by their son, by his

01:10:38.200 kingdom, by the dynasty that had emerged from the ashes of the wars of independence, trusted that

01:10:42.380 she would make the right call regarding any marriage, or hope that she, and this is more likely,

01:10:46.500 would see the benefit in remaining unmarried. It might seem as if she threw that faith away,

01:10:51.380 and hindsight certainly tells us Archibald Douglas, 6th Earl of Angus, was the wrong call,

01:10:56.200 to put it lightly. But E.K. says, she concurs with my interpretation that Margaret's remarriage

01:11:02.120 resulted partly from a need to shore up support and attach herself to a figure with authority

01:11:05.940 and resources. This is E.K. I really want to clarify when I say my and I, this is E.K.

01:11:11.960 My love of Margaret Tudor stems from her flaws and her failures. She sought to further and

01:11:16.900 preserve her interests, to keep herself and her son safe, and maintain status and a role in 0.82

01:11:20.900 government. In this endeavor, she succeeded and failed almost in equal measure, but she never 0.52

01:11:25.100 gave up and seemed so rarely to doubt herself and her abilities. One aspect of her career

01:11:29.180 exemplifies this, I feel. When, in 1514, she was deposed after her remarriage, she simply

01:11:34.720 did not listen. She planned a parliament for the November and Johnstone, attendance of which the

01:11:40.000 castle lords of the council had to explicitly prohibit, showing that Margaret still enjoyed

01:11:43.740 support from at least a small section of Scottish nobility. And she refused to hand over the Great

01:11:48.260 Seal for as long as she could, to the point the council debated writing to,

01:11:51.760 whosoever goldsmith that shall be seen expedient to have a new one made. Amazing. Margaret always

01:11:57.740 swung for the fences, even when the odds were against her. I always say that it's one type 0.95

01:12:01.500 of courage to risk it all for success, but it's quite another to risk it all for failure.

01:12:06.140 anyway so those messages are for ek and again i can't recommend enough you follow her on

01:12:12.140 instagram at ek splain and then she's also on youtube at ek splain i'll put those links in

01:12:17.760 the show notes so i'm gonna close this episode with the regular reminders that i like to always

01:12:25.380 remind you all of actually in one special bonus reminder if you're listening to this the day that

01:12:29.980 it first came out march 29th 2023 there's i've been doing a thing on so i have a patreon which

01:12:35.700 is patreon.com slash ann foster writer and so for people who pledge at least a dollar a month you

01:12:40.540 get early ad free access to all the episodes if you pledge at least two dollars a month you get

01:12:44.900 the early access to episodes and you also get access to polls five dollars or more a month you

01:12:49.520 get access to the polls the early ad free access and also bonus episodes of vulgar peace theater

01:12:53.920 and so this asshole anyway so for the people at the two and five dollar levels there these past 0.87

01:13:01.480 couple of weeks, I've been doing a March Madness on there. So I looked at the people who are the 0.99

01:13:05.360 top scorers on this Fredegund Memorial Scandalicious Scale. And we've been doing like a

01:13:10.120 March Madness. So you like vote against who you think is the most tits out person. And it's been 0.98

01:13:14.460 fun and just like a thing to do. So anyway, so if you want to join the Twitter, like if you join

01:13:18.380 the Twitter today, we're just in the finals. So I'm recording this in advance. So I don't know

01:13:23.520 who the finals are going to be. I'm saying at the point I'm recording this, Fredegund is doing very

01:13:28.400 well. So has been, um, and Jenga also got a lot of votes anyway. So if you were thinking of joining

01:13:33.620 the Patreon, today's a fun day to do it. Cause then you get to vote in the finals, but also

01:13:37.440 you're supporting the show right now by listening to it. Thank you. I love you. You can also support

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01:13:55.620 there's a place where you can like leave a little comment. So you can do that too,

01:13:59.100 if you're listening on Spotify. Anyway, you can also support this show by buying Vulgar History

01:14:03.840 merch, which is all at vulgarhistory.store, where you can always use code titsout for free US

01:14:09.200 shipping or titsout10 for 10% off. Oh, and then I also have a little newsletter, which is not at

01:14:14.320 all to do with women's history, but it's more just to do with what I'm interested, what I'm

01:14:17.900 enjoying and thinking about. And that is at threenicethings.substack.com if you want to

01:14:23.020 follow me there too. Anyway, next week we're going to be back with the conclusion of the Marie de Guise

01:14:28.820 cigar. So until then, keep your pants on and your tits out. 0.99

01:14:36.960 Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Anne Foster and edited by Christina Lumagi. 0.99

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Vulgar History - March 28, 2023

Mary, Queen of Scots： Mary's Mother, Marie de Guise： Part One

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