Vulgar History - Mary, Queen of Scots： Mary's Mother, Marie de Guise： Part Two

00:00:00.000 Hi, everyone. Before we get into today's episode, I wanted to let you know about a fundraiser

00:00:08.060 that I'm doing all this month, the month of April 2023. I'm encouraging Vulgar History

00:00:13.160 listeners to donate to organizations this month that support trans people. Trans rights

00:00:18.300 are under attack right now in the United States and around the world. So far this year, hundreds

00:00:22.400 of anti-trans bills have been proposed in the United States alone. This podcast and

00:00:27.280 I stand with trans people. As we all know, there have been records of trans people throughout

00:00:31.640 history, including in some of the earliest known cultures like ancient Mesopotamia, ancient Greece,

00:00:36.460 and ancient Egypt. So if you go to vulgarhistory.com slash donate, that's where you're going to find

00:00:42.260 information about this fundraiser, which I'm calling Tits Out for Trans Rights. We're going 0.69

00:00:46.880 to be raising money for the Trevor Project through donations, and then also raising funds

00:00:51.400 for Point of Pride through a new merch design. If you choose to support a different trans-forming

00:00:56.920 organization this month you can also be included in this fundraiser by just letting me know who

00:01:01.460 you supported and how much you supported them with and at the end of the month we can have a

00:01:04.780 grand total of how much the tits of brigade was able to do also everyone who donates during this

00:01:10.540 fundraising month can choose to have a shout out on the podcast so if you want i can say your name

00:01:15.100 or i could not say your name or if you want to say fredigand or a pseudonym that's cool too

00:01:19.500 you can of course also remain anonymous but basically that's what's going on this month

00:01:25.840 Head to vulgarhistory.com slash donate to take part. Tits out for trans rights. 0.62

00:01:46.220 Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast hosted by me,

00:01:51.100 and foster and this is part two of our episodes about marie de guise who is the mother of mary

00:01:57.560 queen of scots because this is the season season six there's something about mary queen of scots

00:02:02.000 and once again i'm joined by a friend of the podcast and frequent co-host i say that because

00:02:08.500 she's going to be showing up in in at least one more episode this season it's lana wood johnson

00:02:12.820 de guise expert she's really here to help set the scene and really just you know this is the

00:02:18.740 Mary Queen of Scots season. And it's like, well, why aren't you going to Mary Queen of Scots for

00:02:22.600 quite a while? And that's because there's so much, there's so much just like chess pieces that I

00:02:26.980 really want to tease out and explain. And because everything that happened to her, what her

00:02:33.340 personality was like, or the situation she was in, so much of it was beyond her control. It was just

00:02:39.180 what she was born into. And it was complex. And I think it's really, really, really crucial to

00:02:43.260 understand what her mother was like, what the DeGeese family was like, and what kind of their

00:02:48.100 plan was for her and what her life was supposed to have been like i also wanted to mention because

00:02:53.280 i think i forgot to say this in the recording that the main source that i used for the information

00:02:57.720 about marie herself is the biography scourge of henry the eighth the life of marie de guise by

00:03:04.220 melanie clegg which is i think the most recent full biography just of marie herself now i like

00:03:10.860 that i i get why the book is called scourge of henry the eighth like first of all because she

00:03:16.040 really good under his skin secondly because um to sell a book i think throwing a well-known person

00:03:23.200 like henry the eighth in it makes sense um henry the eighth has got his big giant faces on the

00:03:27.840 cover which is like i don't love that detail i would have had a really big like marie de guise

00:03:32.720 is there too i would have had her really big and then him really little but proportionately he's

00:03:37.460 although i'll say on the cover she is taller than him because she was a tall woman and that's kind

00:03:44.520 a part of her legend anyway so please enjoy this part two of marie de guise with special guest

00:03:51.360 lana johnson so the war of the rough wing still going on even though like baby mary is married

00:03:59.840 to someone else or like has been promised to somebody else like you can't just stop a war

00:04:03.640 because the reason that the war was being fought is over because you just there's a momentum to a

00:04:10.280 war i guess well it's it assumes that the reason that they was was the marriages like she's still

00:04:17.340 not married true oh great point like okay so we can't marry her to ed uh little edward but i could

00:04:24.700 still marry her yeah and also um i just want scotland give it to me now thank you is really

00:04:30.300 the reason for the war yeah i actually got a couple of messages i might read some of these

00:04:34.820 like after one of these episodes but because in the margaret tudor episode i was kind of

00:04:40.280 talking, I was just like sort of musing about like England and Scotland have just kind of like

00:04:44.280 always been back and forth at war. And some people who are in Scotland and or England are like,

00:04:49.460 correct. Yes. No, this was not a good friendship. 0.77

00:04:55.020 So they share, they share, I, again, my great grandfather was Scottish. So I was raised

00:05:00.760 of the belief, which is incorrect, that I am descended from Mary Queen of Scots. I am not.

00:05:06.460 um i am however descended descended from the maclapine clan which is a very old

00:05:11.340 very important uh scots-irish clan or what was an old important scots-irish clan back in the day

00:05:18.500 and now they're like a cadet branch of the stewards but scotland is a completely different

00:05:25.440 group of like genetic descent than england and even even before the romans came even before the

00:05:38.340 the anglos and saxons came like they were trade partners with the vikings but they were a very

00:05:46.780 distinct group of people and so it's not just that like they don't they both want to own their

00:05:52.680 on property they're bad neighbors that don't like each other and have nothing to do with each other

00:05:56.780 yeah so it's what's fascinating that's really interesting i didn't know that

00:06:01.240 because that was one thing that kind of confused me because it's like going back to like athelflaed

00:06:06.660 and whatever like there's all these different anglo-saxon kingdoms and eventually they all

00:06:09.920 kind of came together and i'm like why didn't why didn't the scotland part come together at

00:06:13.120 that point and now i understand why um even the anglos and the saxons couldn't invade scotland

00:06:18.660 no scotland yeah it took it it took james the first to become king of england for scotland to

00:06:27.840 become any remote part of the united kingdom and still to this day it is scotland it is not

00:06:34.940 part of england it's they're together they make a new country but scotland england and wales and

00:06:42.460 north ireland are separate countries within a combined they're they're separate entities within

00:06:48.520 a combined government it's um whether they they can get themselves separated from the government

00:06:55.700 that england has put over them not that they are part of england and they are um never say that

00:07:02.780 scotland to this day like is still there's movements to separate chances are getting a

00:07:12.220 lot better to separate they really are because they could join the eu um yeah so here's what

00:07:17.920 put that wall back up so what marie said so eventually the english troops retreated the

00:07:24.240 scottish side won she was so proud of winning that she wrote and this is a quote the english

00:07:29.040 left nothing behind but the plague so they left i don't did they leave the plague i don't know but

00:07:36.540 like she won great job when people die there's plague is the way they're yeah just true well

00:07:45.480 i think when there's war when people are just close together in a plague era like when it's

00:07:50.780 going around there's that and then there's also the rotting corpses and the bad hygiene of of

00:07:58.180 wartime rats would be rats uh cholera like just people tend to poop near rivers and they didn't

00:08:06.380 know that that was really a bad idea at the time. See the Thames. There was so much plague and so

00:08:14.980 much death when somebody came to war on your country. That's why Germany was always in a 1.00

00:08:20.920 terrible state during this period because everybody just came to war on Germany. Well,

00:08:25.440 what we know now is Germany. No, that's a good point because when I read numbers that are just 1.00

00:08:28.540 such and such war and this many people died in the war, it's like that may or may not include

00:08:33.160 how many people died of the various diseases that what like they weren't all died in battle

00:08:39.740 but like just yeah so uh the war situation having sorted itself out marie was able to go take a trip

00:08:50.400 to visit her daughter in france and the rest of her family and like be in france and just be like

00:08:57.060 i don't know you know be warm and like drink good wine and whatever buy new clothes yes um so she 0.94

00:09:06.540 used her political skill and personal charm to like get some like espionage adjacent work done

00:09:12.800 because she wanted to learn like what's going on behind the scenes in france and part of what was 0.70

00:09:16.720 going on at this point was that some people had planned to poison her daughter but the plot had

00:09:22.420 been foiled but she's just kind of like okay so like you know France is going to France and we're

00:09:28.020 going to talk about Mary Queen of Scots and her childhood in a later episode well people didn't

00:09:33.000 like the Degeese and for all that Mary was Mary Queen of Scots that was like an extra title that

00:09:38.660 she had she was a Degeese pawn true and she was a very important Degeese pawn true yeah it was like

00:09:45.620 nobody nobody was sitting here going she's Queen of Scotland that's that's very key and important

00:09:52.040 is like no she's queen of scotland that's cool she's the degeese that's first well and it's like

00:09:57.580 she's queen of scotland but they're just kind of like but who really cares about scotland 1.00

00:10:01.260 like technically it's it's big yeah but they're all a pain in the ass 1.00

00:10:06.640 because that's what we are lana i can both say that having descended from scottish people 0.98

00:10:12.360 yes and then she headed on this like little business trip to go visit the king of england

00:10:19.620 And if you're like Henry VIII, no, Henry VIII is dead by now. So now this King of England is

00:10:24.800 Edward, who is the boy King Henry VIII's son. And so they had like a little meeting between the two

00:10:31.620 of them. And apparently Elizabeth was there as well, who was a cool young teen at this point.

00:10:39.260 And apparently the other English women for this meeting, they put on like French style outfits 0.96

00:10:43.900 to sort of like be respectful or whatever to make Marie feel at home. But Elizabeth was like, 1.00

00:10:49.120 I only wear English designers and she wore English style clothes.

00:10:53.720 So on brand,

00:10:54.880 on brand little cameo appearance from Elizabeth who will be discussed at length

00:10:59.600 later on the season.

00:11:01.320 Anyway,

00:11:01.820 so yeah.

00:11:03.300 So the region Hamilton,

00:11:04.720 who was the guy who liked England.

00:11:06.540 We talked about him before she tried to usurp him before and she was

00:11:09.860 unsuccessful.

00:11:10.640 Well,

00:11:10.720 luckily for him,

00:11:11.400 he died and she was like,

00:11:13.200 guess who's the new region?

00:11:14.380 Me. 0.96

00:11:15.300 So she named herself the region. 1.00

00:11:17.780 And I don't know if it's because like the war had gone well, like the asshole lords let this happen. So good. So she was now like, do you know, do you have any context for like how she managed to become regent? I just assumed she was just really smart and manipulated people and did it. 0.99

00:11:38.180 basically like uh the Earl of Iran who was Mike B. Aaron I I forget that every once in a while I

00:11:46.820 know Scots and every once in a while it just escapes me um but James Hamilton like he was

00:11:51.880 unpopular after the rough wooing and there weren't a lot of options like to do that so

00:11:59.560 and she got enough influence she got enough people on her side that she she was able to

00:12:05.260 become a region in her own right i i love this for her i'm because she's just like she is such

00:12:13.540 a capable person um it seems like she's good at the job but we'll see how that goes so she started

00:12:19.800 giving jobs to french people or french sympathizing scottish people she was giving

00:12:25.140 them important jobs and basically turning scotland into like mini france was what she said about

00:12:30.760 made de guise france made de guise france she wasn't just giving it she wasn't just giving it

00:12:36.060 to any french dude she was giving it to people that were in her family's party definitely and

00:12:43.000 within her family's influence and so her brothers the de guise brothers who are now she was the

00:12:50.920 eldest but like everyone's adult she and her sibling group they're all adults now and her

00:12:55.300 own brothers i wrote had important jobs back in france but as you explained like they're cardinals

00:13:01.000 they're bishops they're like yeah yeah they're they're very very very important jobs back in

00:13:08.060 france yeah there's two we talk about the most and that's francis the duke de guise who is the dad of

00:13:14.880 of margot's boyfriend and then charles cardinal of lorraine whose real big accomplishment is that

00:13:21.460 he never had any children like he genuinely was a cardinal there's the other cardinal he's okay

00:13:29.100 he did have a kid um and then there's the three uncles which i call the babysitters and they come

00:13:34.840 they'll come back after all of the childhood in france stuff yeah so she was she was turning

00:13:42.320 scotland into de guise mini france which i picture is like a disney world you know where it's like

00:13:48.460 There's the part of a theme park where it's like, and this is the miniature Canada part.

00:13:51.740 This is a miniature Germany part.

00:13:52.880 She's just like, this is miniature de Guise France.

00:13:55.500 Anyway, so she was consulting with her brothers and her uncles, like, you know, getting political advice and whatever.

00:14:01.420 And the Scottish people were not super into this mini France situation.

00:14:08.380 Again, unlike England, they had never been invaded by France.

00:14:14.620 They had never had all of their nobility turned into French people. 0.97

00:14:18.460 And they weren't really fond of it. 0.99

00:14:21.320 Yeah.

00:14:22.060 So this is all setting the scene for, again, this is why the Mary Queen of Scots season is as many episodes as it is.

00:14:28.180 Because this is laying track for what Mary Queen of Scots is going to face later on.

00:14:35.580 She's still a baby.

00:14:36.320 She's not even in the country.

00:14:37.480 And all of this stuff is happening.

00:14:39.100 Yeah, exactly.

00:14:40.000 So Marie de Guise was served as regent for four years.

00:14:43.480 And here's what I wrote.

00:14:44.120 during which time one of her big challenges was the increasing amount of scottish protestants who

00:14:48.400 hated everything about her which yes yeah that's the john knox problem so again john knox is now

00:14:56.400 gone now now gone fully calvinist and started it like in fact taking it maybe to a new extreme which

00:15:02.860 is impressive if you know much about calvinism and so he was he was starting the reformed church

00:15:08.500 and then what's now the presbyterian church is like this is the roots of what is now the

00:15:13.940 Presbyterian church. It's kind of mellowed out a little bit from John Knox. Like he was kind of a

00:15:20.420 lot. They've chilled. One might theorize that the fact that Marie de Guise was a French Catholic

00:15:27.940 woman who was effectively in charge of Scotland, that would kind of get all the men who didn't

00:15:34.560 like women in charge or Catholics. It gave them a common enemy and that kind of like made them 0.80

00:15:39.900 find each other and get more power because they could all come together hating the whole idea of

00:15:47.360 her well and it probably spurred on the reformation in scotland just because they did

00:15:55.100 not want to be catholic like her and and again her catholicism was a lot more intense than

00:16:03.440 scottish catholicism because nobody nobody in europe cared about scotland so that it's like

00:16:10.980 oh well they're catholic but they weren't like they weren't like real catholic like nobody had

00:16:16.560 they had no ireland is real catholic because there was like somebody went there and thought

00:16:23.400 it was somebody in the church went there and thought it was super cool and like went all in

00:16:27.480 on it and they hated england so they wanted to be like as opposite of england as possible so they

00:16:33.860 went deep into their catholicism whereas scotland looked at it and goes we'll do our own thing yeah

00:16:39.920 so it's like it's that same anti-english but now it's also anti-french reaction of marie de guise

00:16:48.540 so again like i am very impressed with marie de guise as a person and she was doing she was doing

00:16:57.380 the best she could and a lot of weird horrible things happen that were not her fault that just

00:17:03.960 made it more complicated but what she's doing is in like not the way that things fall out like

00:17:12.040 she's just in scotland and her very existence is making and i keep saying like john noggs hates 0.99

00:17:19.940 women but like he does like he wrote a bunch of things being like being like women suck women 1.00

00:17:24.180 are awful. Women should not be queens. Like I hate women. My name is John Knox. 1.00

00:17:29.580 Women shouldn't speak loud in my, in public, in my presence. Women should not be seen by me. 1.00

00:17:35.900 Women should not be seen by anyone. Why do we even have them? 1.00

00:17:38.440 Yeah. So, um, so what is developing here is sort of like a culture in Scottish royal court among

00:17:47.400 the asshole lords of just a bunch of dudes who hate women leaders who hate the french who hate 0.94

00:17:55.400 catholics so just bear that in mind because like in a while we'll be having an episode about mary 1.00

00:18:01.300 queen of scots coming back to scotland as a catholic french woman and this is an attitude

00:18:08.900 that only got stronger through time and scottish politics are not even remotely like french

00:18:16.800 politics oh god like they're they're not the same conversation they're they're not playing the same

00:18:22.840 kind of game it's like when you move to a new office and all of the the little petty politics

00:18:27.300 are completely different like you don't even like is this a passive aggressive note that has been

00:18:32.700 left on my food or are they genuinely being helpful because i read it it reads helpful

00:18:36.920 but everyone else is like oh you got a note like it's that kind of like completely new language

00:18:42.840 you have to learn the culture and she kind of wasn't even trying to learn it she's like you

00:18:47.480 all are just doing this wrong i'm going to do this the right way which is the french way yeah

00:18:52.420 no it's it's the new manager coming in and just being like here's what i'm gonna change everything

00:18:57.060 so it's like of course and like you don't like it well then i'll fire you like is the vibe so

00:19:03.780 of course like the people who were there didn't love what she was up to so by this point in england

00:19:09.280 like contrasting scotland with england in this era like scotland just had a whole bunch of kings

00:19:16.000 who were all called james scotland did meanwhile england was just kind of like henry the eighth

00:19:20.940 and then it's like edward jane gray like they kept like cycling through monarchs like scotland had

00:19:26.100 a level of consistency that england had not had in quite a while so the new queen in england was

00:19:33.340 mary the first at this point so who was a catholic which you'd think would be like oh maybe

00:19:40.120 now scotland and england can like be friends but no au contraire because mary the first was married

00:19:45.660 to the king of spain and spain and france big enemies not fans no so england and scotland

00:19:55.900 both catholic asterisks but um still not getting along but they they wanted they wanted the pope

00:20:05.860 to like them more they wanted they were catholics but they were fighting for the affections

00:20:10.920 true true that's a great way to put it and also at this point just so you know mary queen of scots

00:20:16.500 was like a young teenager and she like was married to her longtime fiance the dauphin francis over in

00:20:23.740 france who actually liked her like that was kind of a love match it was we're gonna talk about that

00:20:29.360 a lot but it's complicated but they were the same age and they grew up together and they got along

00:20:34.980 and that's unusual for anyone any relationship on this podcast like the the degeezes did a smart

00:20:41.360 thing of bringing her to yeah yeah and like in insinuating her in his life yeah so they anyway

00:20:49.680 So at this point, you know, I don't want to be like, we'll just sit in this moment and try and act like we don't know what's going to happen later.

00:20:57.200 But anyway, if everything had gone like the Degeezes had planned, eventually Francis is going to be king of France and Mary Queen of Scots would be queen of France.

00:21:06.720 And then off they go. 0.58

00:21:08.100 And that is an alternate history that we'll talk about later.

00:21:11.100 I mean, they did that.

00:21:12.800 They did that.

00:21:14.020 It did happen.

00:21:15.240 That was a couple months.

00:21:17.420 um so technically it happened it was a really great couple of months

00:21:23.980 so what happens next is so then so i just said like mary is the queen in england but spain etc

00:21:32.180 etc and then mary died like she was very briefly queen and the new queen of england was the little

00:21:37.680 girl who only wears english designers queen elizabeth the first and she made england protestant

00:21:43.920 again so but protestant in a very different way than scotland was being protestant

00:21:52.880 like it's very important to note it's not like there was there was like oh well we're both

00:21:57.620 protestant let's get along it's like no you're protestant the wrong way no exactly like queen

00:22:01.420 elizabeth the first is protestant in the way her father was where it's like it's basically catholic

00:22:04.840 but not the pope and scotland at this point like the presbyterian emerging church was just kind of

00:22:11.360 like puritan like we hate women like we always wear black yeah we don't we don't do fancy colors

00:22:19.780 we don't do this talking and being happy thing no like we hate music we hate dancing we hate

00:22:25.780 nice things like that was their vibe at that time like all love to current modern day protestant

00:22:30.040 or presbyterians but um that was not what right like they they were they were that reformed church

00:22:38.840 was not just react like it wasn't just bad for the catholics it was bad for scottish culture

00:22:46.000 like it was it was actively working against traditional scottish culture yeah and so scott

00:22:52.500 like the the true people of scotland clawed back against that so it it has mellowed out quite a 0.91

00:22:59.100 great deal from that immediate reformed church misogynistic jerkwads and and has like become a

00:23:07.680 thing uh like scotland is an amazing place and it has a rich cultural heritage and they're like 0.96

00:23:14.380 all-time badasses for all that europe considered them a backwater like they they scared the romans

00:23:21.720 like they fought off the english for millennia i just want to say like and like john knox is gonna

00:23:31.040 start john knoxing around in this story pretty soon but like he i i like how you describe that 0.99

00:23:35.560 it's kind of like scotland was like doing its thing the asshole lords are there i hate them

00:23:39.740 but like the people of scotland are doing a lot of cool stuff john nox kind of like it's a little 0.96

00:23:45.840 bend in the river but they they recover after that like every every story if you go deep in the

00:23:51.700 marie de geese story there's always like this woman that was some dude's girlfriend that got

00:23:57.060 into a fight with her and then they had like this this commerce war or something like they'll

00:24:03.640 literally start having fights over who's better at selling things than the other or they'll have

00:24:07.700 like these weird little these weird little spats and like this other person will decorate her house

00:24:12.740 better like people were doing the coolest stuff and they were doing it in a way that is completely

00:24:18.420 unlike anywhere else in the world and that is one of my favorite things about this period is like

00:24:22.960 like there's these women and they're all in the background and they're all doing these 1.00

00:24:26.600 completely amazing things to to assert their power and and to keep this their control over 0.99

00:24:32.420 their menfolk who are just just misogynistic jerks most of the time because you can't send 0.99

00:24:37.760 them off to war in in in jerusalem or whatever anymore and ruin other people's lives i love 0.99

00:24:44.220 that detail because so much of like going from margaret tudor to marie de guise it's just like 0.99

00:24:50.620 my experience of reading about scotland in this era is just kind of like there's the asshole lords 0.92

00:24:54.740 being terrible there's a royal court it's all palace based but there's like cool people not

00:24:59.860 there doing good stuff and we'll be talking about some of those people later in the season

00:25:03.680 and they they're so petty they're so petty it's beautiful i love a petty queen that's where i get

00:25:09.020 it from i think i mean same okay so elizabeth is the queen of england and this is an important

00:25:17.200 thing i want to clarify and you can probably help me clarify this so elizabeth is the queen of

00:25:22.440 england now her path to that i've never done an episode about elizabeth the first and i probably

00:25:28.820 We never will because it's like that story is well known and whatever.

00:25:32.560 But just in case, just to like refresh everyone's memory, Elizabeth I was the daughter of Anne Boleyn.

00:25:39.280 And when Anne Boleyn was executed for like alleged adultery treason, Elizabeth was made illegitimate.

00:25:46.680 So when she eventually like Edward died, Henry VIII's son, there was a Jane Grey situation.

00:25:52.960 Mary became queen and now Elizabeth is the queen.

00:25:55.440 but there are those in England who still consider Elizabeth illegitimate and

00:26:00.940 therefore she should not be the queen.

00:26:03.240 And also she's a girl and they hate women and those and Catholics and they 0.99

00:26:08.500 hate Protestants. 0.99

00:26:09.320 So she's a Protestant woman queen who some consider illegitimate.

00:26:15.220 So, so to be like, she's the queen.

00:26:17.240 So you can see how now just to remind you and some of those people think Mary

00:26:22.780 Queen of Scots should be the queen of England.

00:26:25.440 good Catholic Mary, Queen of Scots. 0.86

00:26:27.940 To unfurl the family tree

00:26:29.860 with a bunch of names crossed out,

00:26:31.680 to recap,

00:26:33.280 we had Henry VII

00:26:34.640 and his children were

00:26:37.100 Arthur, Margaret, Henry, Mary.

00:26:40.080 Arthur died.

00:26:41.940 Henry became the king

00:26:43.480 and his only surviving children

00:26:45.920 at this point,

00:26:46.840 like the only one was Elizabeth.

00:26:48.860 Margaret, who we talked about,

00:26:51.700 so if you follow her lineage

00:26:53.600 that gets you to Mary,

00:26:54.960 queen of scots but henry the eighth had made he hated her so he hated her he did scotland

00:26:58.660 as we talked about in like two hours worth of episodes he changed the order of succession so 0.98

00:27:04.700 that margaret's heirs were not considered but that was just him being a bitch like he just like 0.96

00:27:11.660 i disinherit my sister and her children because i hate her but it's like there's people who are 0.96

00:27:17.680 exactly she was mean to me she's my big sister and she was mean to me when we were kids 0.94

00:27:22.560 and then she's mean to me as adults and anyway so henry the eighth was a little bitch but if 0.73

00:27:29.520 you're looking at like this is where it's so complicated because every potential monarch of 0.79

00:27:34.380 england is a girl or a woman which nobody wanted but if you're deciding between these girls or

00:27:41.840 women it's and at this point there's kind of two like there's elizabeth and then there's mary queen

00:27:45.580 of scots and it's like well mary queen of scots it's like there's nothing about her is illegitimate

00:27:49.660 like we know her exact lineage she's the daughter of the king of scott she's the granddaughter of

00:27:53.740 margaret tudor who is the daughter of the king of england like and she's technically they could

00:27:58.900 have gone back to the gray girls if they really really wanted to well that that was the whole

00:28:02.460 jane gray season right because they were just like we need who's going to be the moniker of

00:28:06.640 england and it's like oh my god at the bottom of every family tree it's like okay we've got jane

00:28:10.320 gray we've got katherine gray we've got mary gray we've got like what ann stanley like

00:28:13.740 it's girls it's just all girls like no except for ferdinando but you know then he was killed

00:28:19.980 and he's spanish then no so exactly so it's just like it's only girl options so you're like okay 0.61

00:28:26.920 it has to be a girl um and then there's the people who support elizabeth because she is

00:28:32.720 protestant and because she was the daughter of henry the eighth and she was declared queen of

00:28:38.040 england so she's caught like that married queen of scots she was in england which helped she was

00:28:42.920 in england which definitely helped and she also like she had she had the support of powerful

00:28:49.420 families who liked her for various reasons mary queen of scots was definitely a lot of people 0.97

00:28:57.620 in england thought she should be the queen instead so catholic people a lot of power 0.97

00:29:04.760 powerful catholic people because the degueses are like this is our chance let's do this no exactly 1.00

00:29:10.520 So Marie... 1.00

00:29:12.200 They started using their Catholic influence.

00:29:14.400 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:15.040 So Marie and the De Geese male relatives, her brothers, the uncles, they're all just like,

00:29:19.640 great.

00:29:20.360 How can we make Mary, this little teenage girl in France, how can we have her become

00:29:25.840 the queen of England?

00:29:27.340 Because then their plan, and as I understand it, I could be wrong, was that they could

00:29:32.060 turn England, Scotland, and France into one mega country ruled by the De Geeses.

00:29:37.860 Yeah.

00:29:38.080 Yeah. Well, I mean, the De Guises were, Francis was really young, even though they were married and they were king and queen, Francis was really young. So these De Guises, these uncles that we're talking about, were the regents of France at the time.

00:29:53.300 Yeah. Right. So because during this, oh my God, so much happens in the story. So what had happened in France was that the king of France died because he got, as I like to call it, a splinter in his eye.

00:30:02.900 you could it's so chaotic he got he was jousting and the jousting thing went through his eye and

00:30:10.360 then he died right kings aren't allowed to joust well exactly henry the eighth jousted and he got

00:30:15.360 that like brain injury anyway kings after this i think they do mostly stop jousting anyway while

00:30:21.960 this has happened so mary queen of scots is a little teenage girl over in france with her like

00:30:27.160 best friend slash husband francis francis is now the king of france her little sickly husband 0.88

00:30:33.880 which means mary queen of scots was queen of france at this point so the degizus are like

00:30:39.320 great like our little mary queen of scots is now queen of france like if we can make her be queen

00:30:45.780 of england then england and france will become all one thing and just imagine if that had happened

00:30:51.420 That's like a chaotic board game, role-playing game. 0.71

00:30:56.360 Mary Green of Scots is my ultimate sliding glass door.

00:30:59.700 And I've told you, I've given you this theory so many times.

00:31:02.260 Please, no, but tell the people.

00:31:03.300 We'll talk about that more.

00:31:04.400 We'll talk about that later, because I do want you to explain the theory to everybody.

00:31:08.080 I think that is absolutely a Catherine de' Medici.

00:31:10.840 Catherine de' Medici, okay, yeah.

00:31:12.880 Catherine de' Medici.

00:31:14.060 So we will get into the ultimate sliding doors moment.

00:31:16.400 But here, again, if we're sitting with this,

00:31:19.360 imagining where those people living at this time and we're not people now who know what happened

00:31:23.280 this was a potential idea like the degesis were like holy shit this is amazing like elizabeth

00:31:29.580 especially when she started out as queen like she had so many enemies there like it really was

00:31:35.160 precarious how like mary the first had been queen for just a couple years and then she died

00:31:39.360 jane gray had just like blipped in and out where it's like it seemed really possible that elizabeth

00:31:44.500 could be taken out like could be removed so they're just like and mary queen of scotts had

00:31:49.540 such claim to the throne she's not queen and edward had died of a sickness and like nobody

00:31:56.340 had liked catherine of aragon or no sorry uh nobody had liked anne boleyn like there elizabeth 0.98

00:32:03.060 was if she hadn't been as impressive of a human being as she was she this would have happened

00:32:10.240 no exactly exactly she had which again like and i do i don't see myself ever doing an episode

00:32:16.600 about elizabeth but this period of elizabeth's life is really interesting and you're right it's

00:32:20.880 because if elizabeth had had the personality of katherine gray like this would have happened

00:32:26.460 but she did not honestly if she'd married dudley yeah if she'd actually married dudley 0.50

00:32:31.760 this entire story would be different yeah exactly so but again no because she would

00:32:36.360 have lost so fast that dudley's are ding-dongs we know this oh my gosh they are so again like

00:32:43.640 if we put ourselves in the heads of marie degeese the degeese family they're just like this is

00:32:47.680 incredible like obviously mary queen of scots can become a queen of england and so they started

00:32:54.720 getting this is and this is a moment that they do do in rain lana just so you know mary queen of

00:33:01.780 scots so she had an official coat of arms and so they got her like they included england's coat of

00:33:08.300 arms and her coat of arms so it was sort of like casually being like oh yeah i consider myself

00:33:14.440 queen of england creating her coat of arms was like one of her uncle's life achievements he's so

00:33:21.340 he's so proud of creating this coat of arms that has everything in it and he's like i did a really

00:33:27.180 good i was trying to decide if it'd be open or close and i went with imperial and i'm really

00:33:31.440 proud of that he's like i was gonna go with a sensory font but then i did a serif font and i

00:33:37.180 like them and yeah then i centered it yes he's he's literally like one of the people that votes

00:33:42.620 for popes and he's like but then i made this coat of arms and it was so good yeah like you had to

00:33:47.660 have seen it the way they did this in rain was it's like she showed up at some sort of tournament

00:33:54.100 like they made it it was effectively this moment but they had mary show up and she was wearing the

00:33:59.160 colors of england instead of the colors of france and everyone's like oh she's making a fashion

00:34:03.680 statement so basically they're like mary queen of scots started because she was being advised by

00:34:09.400 her family presenting herself as though she was queen of england which was i am i'm gonna go on

00:34:15.240 one of my tiny rants right now the the impression that mary queen of scots was a poor little victim

00:34:21.960 and that she was being used and abused and manipulated when she was literally a degeese 0.99

00:34:27.420 and like Marie

00:34:29.540 a French woman

00:34:31.580 won the regency with her child

00:34:33.760 not even in the country

00:34:34.920 like these are

00:34:37.100 scary manipulative people

00:34:39.780 that like will play the game

00:34:41.720 to the nth degree

00:34:42.860 and Mary learned

00:34:45.600 at the same feet of Antoinette

00:34:47.540 with all those uncles around

00:34:49.160 yes they were manipulating her to their own

00:34:51.500 devices but they were

00:34:53.520 also prepping her to be the

00:34:55.680 person they needed her to be

00:34:57.420 And so she was not this sad little poor little girl that was like, oh, woe is me. Everything's

00:35:04.100 real hard. She's like, no, I'm going to be queen of England. I am going to do this. So let's go

00:35:10.120 big or go home. And she wasn't this weak little thing. She was a degeese. And she was raised with

00:35:18.460 that mentality, which is very different than what she would have been raised with in Scotland.

00:35:22.200 Absolutely. So I want to say that it's a combine of nature versus nurture.

00:35:25.820 like she genetically has the diggies you know in her dna but then the nurturer is like and she was

00:35:32.820 also raised by the diggies so she's like there's no option that she wouldn't have been yeah like

00:35:39.180 she was genuinely raised by antoinette herself and like antoinette raised marie and we see what

00:35:44.260 marie is like so like yeah well antoinette sent marie to her mother who raised her being raised 0.99

00:35:50.880 by your grandma and once your grandma knows what's going on not when she's a like a dumb little kid 0.94

00:35:56.240 like once she's got everything figured out and then she raises you that's what that family did

00:36:00.740 and they did it really effectively until you know james and his stuff but this is a really really

00:36:07.700 important point and this is low-key kind of what i really want to get across in this season

00:36:12.300 because i think mary queen of scots's story there's so many eras to it like there's so

00:36:17.880 many different things happen and so often when her story is discussed or understood it's just

00:36:24.220 and she was executed i mean spoiler she's executed where it's like or like oh and then she was like

00:36:30.300 in jail or whatever it's like yeah but while she was in prison like and these letters just came 0.95

00:36:34.500 out she's writing fucking code coded ciphers she was making like sending messages in her embroidery 0.98

00:36:40.140 to like make people do treason like she she never stopped scheming no never stopped scheming 0.99

00:36:48.900 degees to the bone she was born scheming and then and this is what's interesting to me like

00:36:54.340 but then she's got so like degees to the bone yes and i i think like just in her dna also was this

00:37:02.020 like whatever percent 15 tutor romantic disaster choices so it's an interesting combination of

00:37:10.120 things anyway yeah so this is really really important to me to emphasize like mary queen

00:37:15.740 of scots is a person who i find so interesting and when people like oh the tragedy of mary queen

00:37:21.340 of scots it's like no okay everyone's life story ends with their death but that doesn't mean every

00:37:26.580 it doesn't retroactively mean every part of their life was a tragedy like mary queen of scots had a

00:37:32.400 lot of successes and a lot of cool things and now we're just going to take a break for a word from

00:37:39.020 our sponsors the war is over and both sides lost kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies

00:37:47.940 scattered like bones in the dust now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world praying

00:37:55.340 the darkness chooses someone else tonight but in the shadow dark the darkness always wins this is

00:38:02.780 old school adventuring and it's most cruel your torch ticks down in real time and when that flame

00:38:09.000 dies something else rises to finish the job this is a brutal rules light nightmare with a story

00:38:14.820 that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make this is what it felt

00:38:19.960 like to play rpgs in the 80s and man it is so good to be back join the glass cannon podcast as

00:38:25.600 we plunge into the shadow dark every thursday night at 8 p.m eastern on youtube.com slash

00:38:30.680 the glass cannon with the podcast version dropping the next day see what everybody's

00:38:35.500 talking about and join us in the dark welcome to the realms of peril and glory explore the

00:38:48.120 mechanically magical vistas of veil the paranormal mysteries of liminal london

00:38:54.760 and the cyberpunk chaos of cyborg be awed by our incredible guests from familiar shows

00:39:04.480 like Ox Venture and No Rolls Barred. Search realms of peril and glory to find out more.

00:39:13.880 Reality TV is messy. Pop culture is louder than ever. And the internet completely unhinged.

00:39:20.860 Welcome to Roxanne and Chantel, the podcast where cousins Roxanne and Chantel break down reality

00:39:26.220 TV, celebrity drama, and the stories everyone's texting about. We recap the shows, spill the

00:39:32.160 headlines and sit down with the stars themselves. No filter, no boring takes, just the tea. New

00:39:39.100 episodes every week. If it's trending, we're talking about it. This is Roxanne. And Chantelle.

00:39:45.500 Let's get into it. Hi, I'm Whitney. And I'm Katie. And we're the hosts of True Crime Campfire.

00:39:52.420 We set out to make a true crime podcast we'd want to listen to. We get right to the story. We don't

00:39:57.940 do a lot of extra talking and when we do it's usually to roast the short hairs off of some 0.98

00:40:02.320 loser murderer or scammer you'll laugh but only at the people who deserve it like which serial 0.97

00:40:07.860 killer would you most like to shove into a locker btk and his awful poetry dude got caught because 0.96

00:40:13.960 he didn't understand what a floppy disk was we look for the stranger than fiction stories like

00:40:19.180 the case of patty james a killer catfish before the internet was even a thing or howard walmsley

00:40:24.560 a sentient wad of damp laundry who convinced his town he'd won the lottery,

00:40:28.880 fleeced local businesses out of thousands, and then became a romance scammer.

00:40:33.180 We've covered tons of cases you've never heard of. 0.94

00:40:35.860 Cults, scammers, killers.

00:40:37.740 So come find your next great binge.

00:40:39.880 Listen to True Crime Campfire on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:40:44.880 New episodes every Friday.

00:40:48.480 And we're back. 0.98

00:40:50.180 She spent a lot of time locked up in castles.

00:40:51.900 that doesn't mean she spent a lot of time being a prisoner really important clarification she

00:40:59.060 very very different like she was she was not she was not a willing prisoner that just kind of went

00:41:04.940 along with whatever was going on this is not a woman that just sat around willingly when we get

00:41:10.400 to the like it's gonna be a whole episode about her like time imprisoned but like she was 1.00

00:41:14.760 degeezing her ass off which one no exactly like she was the scottish also basically imprisoned

00:41:21.160 her she spent some time in prison yeah okay so what's happening now in this story is so we've 0.90

00:41:26.040 got the coat of arms debut mary queen of scots is just like not even low-key high-key just being

00:41:32.160 like walking around being like yeah i consider myself the queen of england like do you want to

00:41:36.580 go to war for me great thanks elizabeth is like again like so precarious in england but she was 1.00

00:41:43.700 also smart and she got it and she was just like these fucking dickieses like like i need to because 1.00

00:41:48.060 the diggieses were very much like running mary's kind of like uh what's like publicity campaign 0.99

00:41:55.280 yeah publicity campaign exactly so she's like those are the people i need to stop two dukes

00:41:59.680 two cardinals a bunch of other like a bunch of other guys that just have random titles because

00:42:05.700 they could like one of them was basically in charge of the navy one of them one of them well

00:42:10.960 the murky del bouff like again you'll probably talk about him later um shy shyla bush what

00:42:17.920 okay no el boof el boof like oh el boof he he has spent some time in scotland um with bothwell

00:42:27.280 so i have no doubt you'll you'll he'll come up somehow yes but like these they're not they're

00:42:34.300 not popular even in france enemies are easy to find here's the thing so like it's not it's not

00:42:44.040 I hope everyone is getting understanding from our conversation.

00:42:47.080 Like it's not as obvious as like Scotland versus England versus France.

00:42:50.600 There's factions within factions within factions.

00:42:54.520 So what the situation is right now,

00:42:56.540 Elizabeth is the queen of England. 0.97

00:42:59.120 The diggies are running this like PR campaign, 0.97

00:43:02.600 like sending Mary queen of Scots around legs and day,

00:43:05.560 just like wearing outfits and make a statement.

00:43:08.360 Anyway, 0.89

00:43:08.980 Elizabeth in England is just like,

00:43:11.060 she's like,

00:43:11.400 okay,

00:43:11.660 like how can I like,

00:43:13.920 yes this is happening but that's happening in france like the island like the british isles

00:43:19.340 she's like okay well i she sees like she has spies everywhere elizabeth everyone has spies

00:43:24.940 everywhere and so she knows that the scottish protestants don't like marie de guise so she

00:43:31.460 starts secretly supporting them elizabeth does so it's kind of like marie de guise versus elizabeth

00:43:39.060 and john knox is like i hate you i hate you as much as i hate her but i'll take the help 0.54

00:43:44.100 yeah john knox is just like you're a queen and a woman and that's inherently i can't breaks my 0.97

00:43:49.920 brain the concept like i hate you you're a woman but your protestantism is wrong your protestantism 0.77

00:43:54.960 is wrong and i will fix you later but he's like but for now i'll take your help so i can later 0.78

00:43:59.640 squash you yeah yes yeah and so this is when like great thank you for bringing up john knox because

00:44:05.720 this is at the point at which john knox oversees a huge revolt against marie diggies he turns

00:44:13.200 against her anyways but he had so many supporters by now john knox so she like i don't know she put

00:44:19.700 on her like special armor her special painted spear or whatever if she learned her lesson to 0.75

00:44:23.440 not look so obvious and show up at battles anyway so she was outnumbered her team was outnumbered

00:44:31.980 And so she had to retreat.

00:44:35.980 I summarize here because I'm not a fan.

00:44:38.780 I can't fundamentally, I can't read battle history.

00:44:42.540 My brain shuts off.

00:44:44.780 Same, same.

00:44:46.440 I hate that part of history so much.

00:44:47.800 So here's what I wrote.

00:44:49.020 And you can like step in, please.

00:44:50.600 So at this point, some of Marie's allies switched sides

00:44:53.640 and then Edinburgh fell to the Protestants.

00:44:56.480 Things were getting worse and worse. 0.63

00:44:57.660 So she got France to send over more troops to help her out.

00:45:00.340 And her team had a big victory.

00:45:01.980 in Fife no she asked France sorry she asked France to send over more troops yeah to help her and she

00:45:10.740 had her brothers and it was her brother's job to bring more troops in and they were totally going 0.89

00:45:15.320 to get around to it totally these are the younger brothers these are the ding-dongs they're so ding 0.92

00:45:20.560 dongs and and they're like yeah yeah yeah we're getting we're getting those troops together for

00:45:24.580 you sis we'll be there in a minute but her side actually did her her side in scotland was the one

00:45:32.860 that brought the victory to fight okay not not her ding-dong not the ding-dongs okay um and then

00:45:38.180 here's another quote from marie de guise who said this is iconic um where is now john knox's god

00:45:47.360 my god is stronger than his

00:45:49.660 even in Fife

00:45:50.940 so

00:45:52.080 I love this like where is your god now

00:45:55.380 John Knox

00:45:56.440 my god's here

00:45:59.360 yeah

00:45:59.800 such patty 1.00

00:46:02.120 but then Elizabeth sent more troops

00:46:05.560 from England and then so it's just like

00:46:07.560 again it's just like war 1.00

00:46:09.180 and it's like a Catholic

00:46:10.700 Protestant thing but it's also like

00:46:13.460 a Scotland England thing like

00:46:14.960 again like as

00:46:17.360 But her brother showed up as the right after the peace had been so useless.

00:46:26.420 Yeah.

00:46:27.120 So there was.

00:46:28.240 Yeah.

00:46:28.860 So there's peace.

00:46:29.480 So there's a treaty which wound up.

00:46:32.100 This is what I wrote.

00:46:33.360 Elizabeth agreed to meet the Protestant leaders to work out a treaty. 0.99

00:46:36.680 So like at this point, the diggies are not on top. 0.94

00:46:40.760 And the treaty that Elizabeth worked out with a Protestant, with like John Knox, was saying, basically, we're going to expel all French people from Scotland. 0.98

00:46:48.380 Because they put it to the younger brothers, because the older brothers were doing France things, which is way more important. 0.66

00:46:53.580 Like they failed to recognize the strategic importance of Scotland and they didn't do the work.

00:46:59.380 They just kind of saw Scotland as a write-off.

00:47:01.260 It's just kind of like, oh, if we lose Scotland, oh well.

00:47:03.560 But it's like, actually, it really matters.

00:47:05.500 Yeah, they considered just claiming it good enough.

00:47:08.900 Like they've claimed it, now they own it.

00:47:10.480 now it's theirs they'll they'll go figure that out later when when they have france all tidied

00:47:15.160 up with a baby so marie de guise is very much just like left on her own and she's great and with

00:47:22.760 helpers like with a team she can do really well as we've seen but she's not getting that support

00:47:29.160 right now um so battles continued but what i find really interesting is that marie was like still

00:47:36.780 like don't forget tall charismatic glamorous like even um the english ambassador like a man who

00:47:43.940 hated her wrote that she had the heart of a man of war and one of the english bishops said marie

00:47:50.140 was a woman with a man's courage which again is like a backhanded compliment being like wow she's

00:47:55.520 so good she's like a man but like that's kind of the best compliment that those guys were able of

00:48:00.540 giving it was it was all their minds were capable of yeah it's like she's so great she's like a man

00:48:06.260 like whatever i just think it's impressive even her enemies were like you know we hate her and 1.00

00:48:10.600 everything she stands for but goddamn she has style so the battles kept raging marie de guise 0.99

00:48:15.780 kept not giving in um she like would negotiate with the scottish rebels she would you know 1.00

00:48:22.960 oversee like what the battles were happening and then she fell ill do you know anything about her

00:48:27.380 illness i have a couple notes let me see it was edema is what i have which is sort of that's

00:48:34.620 that's usually a heart, a heart thing, probably a heart condition. She died of dropsy. Yeah.

00:48:38.640 Yeah. Which is, so she, um, usually that's, that's a side effect of a heart condition of

00:48:43.960 some variety, um, probably genetic, but it just, it might've also been damaged that she'd taken

00:48:50.600 during like her lifetime or just an illness. Edema, edema, edema comes in a lot of different

00:48:56.680 ways. Usually your heart can start getting sick in a lot of different ways. So they didn't know

00:49:02.320 that it was a heart thing she just started swelling up basically yeah i was gonna say like

00:49:06.320 the swelling up and that's the same similar to and the first had a similar thing like just like

00:49:11.180 your body starts i don't know if it's inflammation but like you just start swelling you just have

00:49:15.820 excess water you start like retaining water you just like everything swells your your body has

00:49:21.580 two wet systems it's the blood system and the lymph system the lymph system doesn't have a pump of its

00:49:27.420 it kind of piggybacks off of your heart. Your heart's pumping. And so it takes advantage of

00:49:34.040 you getting up and moving around and all that stuff to move the lymph through your system.

00:49:38.900 And when your heart isn't as strong, the lymph can't move either. So the blood isn't going as

00:49:45.960 good, but it also doesn't move that lymph. So basically all this water that's coming out of

00:49:49.960 the blood and going into your system, it just stays there and it can't go anywhere. And so

00:49:55.740 you need to like get, that's why people wear compression garments now like me

00:50:00.380 and like help the system move along. Sometimes you can get past it by compression garments,

00:50:09.280 but back then they didn't know anything. She was just basically dropping off all the water

00:50:14.020 at various points of her body and just swelling, which makes it harder for the blood to move as

00:50:18.860 well i can't imagine there were very helpful doctors in scotland in 1560 no like again all

00:50:28.900 love to scotland but no like the one there's there weren't good doctors anywhere for this like

00:50:36.300 there it was it was still for humors era and like there this is why it was so remarkable in the

00:50:42.640 christina of sweden she correction yeah they might have been able to cure it in china

00:50:48.420 in China, Japan, where the traditional medicine is in place.

00:50:57.180 They actually did understand pieces of this in that area during that time.

00:51:01.780 But in Europe, no, we didn't, no, we knew nothing, nothing.

00:51:06.520 But this is why it was so remarkable and why I kind of feel like it was a time traveler

00:51:10.300 in the Christina of Sweden episode where she was having so many health problems.

00:51:14.460 And this guy came in and he's like, hey, I think you're stressed.

00:51:17.480 You know what you should do?

00:51:18.420 take some baths like practice self-care like be kind to yourself which is different from edema

00:51:23.500 like you're not going to cure that with baths but like that was the only helpful doctor i've

00:51:28.620 ever read about in any historical story ever was the one who told christina of sweden like

00:51:32.740 i think you're overworking yourself like eat meals try to get some sleep read some good books

00:51:37.920 and then she like did great every other doctor i've ever read about like these are like the

00:51:42.580 doctors who had um who was the guy descartes who christina kidnapped when he was dying and

00:51:48.720 they were all just like whatever leeches like drink this it was like drink this like tonic

00:51:55.480 made of tobacco or like it was just random anyway so marie de guise she had these symptoms um she

00:52:03.400 swelled up she lost the ability to speak um she had she like it's described as she lost her mental

00:52:08.520 faculties like just her body was shutting down yeah when you swell when you're when your body

00:52:13.140 swells it swells everywhere but it's visibly like by the point that she was losing her faculties

00:52:18.780 um it's visibly in your legs in your hands and in your belly but like it's also happening

00:52:24.580 in your face and in your brain and all yeah so there were rumors that like oh was she poisoned

00:52:30.360 but it's like pretty much textbook like edema like this is what she had and then this is uh so

00:52:36.180 she died it could have been poisoning but it was probably natural causes it could have been natural

00:52:41.180 causes and she's being poisoned but i think if someone was going to poison her they would have

00:52:45.020 done that long ago um it could have been the medicine that they were giving her poisoned her

00:52:49.700 a combination of things so she passed away on june 11 1560 aged 44 which to me seems like so

00:52:57.840 young for how much stuff she did but like this story got going like she was married when she

00:53:02.220 was 18 and it just like unrelenting from that point what she was up to well and a lot of women

00:53:08.040 were married at 18 and they didn't do a third of as much stuff as as she did no she like she didn't

00:53:14.020 she didn't let things happen to her she was very much the captain of her own life because that's

00:53:22.200 what she was raised to be so i have a little section here so after she died she died and it

00:53:29.300 was chaos right like john knox religious chaos elizabeth spies just like war just like anyway

00:53:37.980 she died in the middle of all of this so her body had to be carried out secretly in the middle of

00:53:43.260 the night because her enemies probably would have wanted to like rip her body apart or whatever

00:53:46.900 and her body was shipped to france which is where she wanted to be buried like she had for years and

00:53:53.240 years, like been fought hard for the concept of Scotland, but she didn't like it. She wouldn't

00:54:01.200 have wanted to be buried there. So in France. That would have been a step too far. No, it's

00:54:06.060 like, she's like, yeah, I'm doing all this for Scotland, but really I'm doing this for France.

00:54:09.160 And really I'm doing this for the de Guises is what she was doing. So her body was like smuggled

00:54:13.240 over to France where a massive marble tomb was erected along with a bronze statue of her looking,

00:54:19.060 I assume, tall and glamorous. But then like everyone who was ever buried before the French

00:54:24.720 Revolution, this was all smashed during the French Revolution when they just did a lot of

00:54:28.780 graveyard smashing. So her body itself wound up with her sister Renee, who was a nun. And so

00:54:35.600 she was buried in Reims at the Convent of St. Pierre. So again, just a real Catholic end. 0.92

00:54:43.020 And so after she died, this kind of coincided slash correlated with the sort of the end, the new era of this religious battle going on.

00:54:57.400 So this is when the Treaty of Edinburgh was signed, which did, there was a lot of stuff in it.

00:55:03.100 like, again, I don't like reading about treaties in general, but part of what the Treaty of

00:55:07.140 Edinburgh said was it left the power of the Scottish government in the hands of effectively

00:55:12.440 John Knox. So James V, so her, oh my God, there's so many James, but that's her husband,

00:55:19.940 her dead husband. So James V, I'd said he had a lot of illegitimate children and one of his

00:55:24.960 illegitimate children, I'm sure all of them was also called James because what this story needs

00:55:30.140 more people in it called James. So the head of the government of Scotland was James V's illegitimate

00:55:37.220 son, also James. And so he was named head of government in Scotland for as long as Mary was 0.57

00:55:44.080 in France. Because don't forget about Mary, Queen of Scots. So she's in France still. She is the

00:55:54.540 queen of France at this point, married to Francis, the king of France. And we'll talk about what

00:56:01.140 happens to her. Not planning to ever come back. No, no one expected her to be there. Like what

00:56:08.260 they'd set up was that James is the head of government in Scotland. And they just assumed

00:56:13.680 this would happen. This would just continue on for quite a while. Did it be a tributary state

00:56:18.460 of france and and it would just like pay taxes every once in a while exactly that that's that 0.82

00:56:24.500 was everyone's plan and understanding um yeah so mary queen of scots was married to the french

00:56:31.720 king so and they were planning everyone was assuming that she and he would stay married

00:56:36.740 for years and years and years and have lots of children have tons of children yeah so here's

00:56:43.560 what i wrote marie de guise played hard with the hands she was dealt um she emerged as one of the

00:56:48.720 most powerful and influential queens of renaissance europe like she wasn't she was married to the king

00:56:54.840 for just a couple years but then like serving as regent and stuff like she was there during this

00:56:59.320 era this weird not i don't want not weird but just like unprecedented era where because of random 1.00

00:57:06.440 fate there was a bunch of really powerful women rulers in all over the place because 0.99

00:57:12.560 marie was doing this in scotland like in france catherine de medici we'll talk about 1.00

00:57:17.980 but you have like even elizabeth in england like there's suddenly there's just all these women 0.99

00:57:22.300 rulers which again makes people like john knox just be like oh no the woke agenda like women

00:57:27.660 rulers um totally it was exactly that it's just like suddenly women were in charge of all these

00:57:34.320 places because there was no one else in the family tree there was no men anywhere because 0.76

00:57:38.100 all the boys were dying because they were inbreeding because they're inbreeding and

00:57:42.260 like this is just like a fact about like humans is that girl babies just survive better than boy

00:57:50.420 babies do in eras where there's like famine or war or whatever it's just like more girls survive

00:57:56.280 like they just do girls are this isn't i'm just saying like physiologically more capable like

00:58:02.860 of surviving boys tend to die more when they have physical problems it's survival of the species 1.00

00:58:08.360 yeah uh women are have to survive to childbirth and they don't need as many men to do so so they

00:58:17.380 they tend to survive childhood better they don't necessarily tend to tend to survive child birth 0.97

00:58:22.780 better like to old age like once you get to adulthood it's about equal yeah but in terms of

00:58:28.900 if you look at like premature babies like more like uh the it's the outlook is more

00:58:35.880 optimistic for a premature girl than a premature boy and when you're when you're selecting for

00:58:44.000 the descendants of people who happened to win a war a while ago as opposed to a genetic preference

00:58:52.500 you don't tend to get very strong children and that's especially after a while like you have

00:58:59.840 to introduce new new blood in after a while or things get real bad yeah which is just like

00:59:06.620 like this is the story we're telling and this is like such a common thing that happens in other

00:59:11.660 parts of history but like the fact that this is a culture that we're talking about in this podcast

00:59:18.540 in a society where it's like okay like you skip over the girls and then the boys get to like so

00:59:24.500 much chaos was caused because you skipped over the girls to get to the boys like if margaret

00:59:29.620 tudor had become the queen of france instead of henry the eights like a lot of things would have

00:59:35.020 been different but like you have to skip over the girls because the boys are more important and then

00:59:38.740 what that ends up with john knox is that like the only people left are all girls and women and you

00:59:45.800 can hate them but it's like there's no royals that are boys there's not any there's not an option

00:59:51.620 you you either have to get rid of the royal system or you have to embrace the women yeah

00:59:58.900 but it's it's it's inherently patriarchal nonsense like he chose to get rid of the royal system which

01:00:05.160 fine like that there i don't disagree with that i disagree with him it disagrees with the way he

01:00:12.400 did it but choosing to go for a more he wasn't even that democratic like if he'd even been

01:00:18.680 slightly democratically electing people but it was just people on his side that he wanted to be

01:00:24.940 in charge no it's exactly it's the same thing as like napoleon or whatever where it's just like

01:00:29.340 we're gonna get rid of the king and or oliver quamil it's like now there's a new job it's

01:00:33.220 basically the king but it's not called the king and it's me and the person who gets the job after

01:00:38.340 me will be my oldest son but it's totally not a monarchy you guys like but scotland isn't very

01:00:45.800 was never very good at kings kings of scotland was kind of a blip in and of itself really like

01:00:52.720 yes so it's it's a clan system it's it's people getting together and making choices together and

01:01:01.500 And the Lairds, like, the Lairds, they had their, they weren't completely wrong with the, we should be in charge, why is there a queen?

01:01:09.900 It's like, they had, like, precedents and people that had kind of won political power.

01:01:17.720 And the Bruce's, when they started to go to war against England during the, what's that, Mel Gibson movie?

01:01:24.280 The Braveheart.

01:01:25.040 With Braveheart, yes.

01:01:27.660 Robert the Bruce, that was the first king of Scotland.

01:01:30.300 and the bruce's like that was a clan who had gained predominance as a military clan and they

01:01:39.500 did a very good job of fighting the english and and like rallying the troops and managing for war

01:01:45.260 and so that was where the kings came from the stewards and marriage like it they just didn't

01:01:50.640 let it go which is not dissimilar to what julius caesar did in rome like i'm just really good at

01:01:57.820 war and i'm going to just take charge and keep it even though he didn't have kids but there there

01:02:05.100 is that mentality there that period of having a king is kind of very reactionary to that period

01:02:12.680 of fighting england more actively as opposed to like this armistice of we hate you you hate us

01:02:20.080 we'll fight every now and then it was like more of a dedicated war period and that's when they

01:02:24.660 had a king and that's when it kind of started going funky and they're like let's go back to

01:02:30.880 being clans that worked together and negotiated but that is a fragmented government system like

01:02:39.420 you have that's a lot more politics a lot more negotiation a lot more getting people on your

01:02:44.040 side to agree to things and that is not great when this big powerful country with one leader

01:02:50.200 that tells them what to do

01:02:51.280 is ready to come commit genocide on you.

01:02:54.060 Well, and that's the thing about like 0.98

01:02:55.180 the other countries who they were, 0.89

01:02:56.760 like that is effective

01:02:58.180 when the people who you're at war with

01:03:00.480 are other clans,

01:03:01.460 but when suddenly this huge other,

01:03:02.880 it's like you need to have a king

01:03:04.380 because that's how it works now.

01:03:08.300 And then when it's your king

01:03:09.200 that comes and tries to commit genocide on you,

01:03:11.040 things get real complicated,

01:03:12.380 but that's the story for another day.

01:03:16.080 Lana, it's time to score,

01:03:17.620 to score Marie de Guise.

01:03:20.200 I will, I will mention though, well, I don't know, this could be part of her significant score, but like, so she's the mother of Mary Queen of Scots. Mary Queen of Scots is the mother of James the first slash six of England. And then he threw him in a very convoluted way. Like Marie de Guise is the ancestor of every modern royal now in various convoluted ways.

01:03:45.440 okay so scandalousness which just to to recap for you like what context of scandalousness

01:03:52.620 are we looking at it's like how not not so much like do we today look at somebody's actions be

01:03:57.760 like oh my god how shocking but it's like how were the people of that era how did they see her

01:04:02.380 and it's and i think what you're thinking is what i'm thinking which is like which people

01:04:07.360 exactly it's like um whose point system are we going with are we going france's point system 0.98

01:04:13.820 or are we like even with France she was a little bit scandalous scandalous in that she was like 0.52

01:04:19.040 she was pretty and smart yeah but also she was a de Guise and that was just like okay that's why 1.00

01:04:25.640 you marry into that family if you want a pretty smart lady that's what you got um that's what

01:04:30.100 you get like that's you're you're aligning yourselves with that group of people so like

01:04:35.840 being a de Guise is like a scandalous bonus point to begin with but then she goes to she's brings

01:04:42.000 all of her French stuff to Scotland. And then the scandal just goes through the roof. 1.00

01:04:46.060 And that's the thing. Like, so it's not like often or not often, but sometimes on this podcast,

01:04:50.220 the scandalousness is like, oh, this woman, she, whatever she like Lola Montes. It's like, oh,

01:04:55.160 okay. She like was a burlesque dancer and she maybe murdered some people or where it's like,

01:04:59.420 okay, that's scandalous. But like in the context of Marie de Guise's life, like a less

01:05:03.000 scandalous version of her would have maybe been more, I don't know. Like there's no version of

01:05:11.220 her raised by the family she was raised by that would have been subservient and quiet but so she

01:05:15.300 was she was scandalous to scotland scotland thought was normal yeah like she like her whole

01:05:22.000 thing was so scandalous and so abnormal to people like john knox that they like

01:05:28.620 created an entire religion based on hating her created all like created a whole basic incel

01:05:36.400 movements it yeah in a period where that was not a thing no because she was such a powerful 0.97

01:05:43.800 smart woman so and that was what like she was not there was never anything about like oh she 1.00

01:05:48.940 had an affair or whatever she just like she because she's so Catholic but she like married 0.98

01:05:52.440 this person had a child with him married this person a child with him like she never did anything

01:05:56.100 that was like scandalous just in those sorts of ways but just like being the person she was in

01:06:02.900 the place that she was, was inherently scandalous.

01:06:04.740 So I'm going to say it's complicated,

01:06:09.100 but in the context of this podcast where scandalousness is more often she had

01:06:13.280 an affair or like whatever, I'm going to give her like a six.

01:06:16.900 What do you think?

01:06:17.960 I will,

01:06:18.560 I will go with that because like she, 0.60

01:06:20.480 she was scandalous just in the context of her era, 0.93

01:06:23.880 but she was not a scandalous human.

01:06:26.360 Not whatsoever. 0.98

01:06:27.800 Other than showing up to war with her fancy outfits. 1.00

01:06:30.980 which was more just kind of like a bad idea and getting into cat fights with people's mistresses

01:06:36.680 exactly but that i feel like that's like the least but he wasn't the mistress she wasn't

01:06:41.080 the mistress like she didn't even take another husband after her second are you talking about

01:06:44.620 janet stewart or someone else possibly there's someone who i'm talking about there's like

01:06:49.580 there were so many of them it was there were a lot of them yes um like one of them was like

01:06:55.000 literally a lady that ran an inn there we're going to be talking about some like non-royal 1.00

01:07:02.400 scottish women later this season okay good um because they're okay so scheminess 0.99

01:07:08.580 okay that's that's a 10 she gets a she gets a five for being a degeese so everything on top of that 0.94

01:07:16.980 like yes it's a 10 like i think anyone who like usurps anything like she or anybody any foreign 1.00

01:07:24.440 woman who usurps local control without her main pawn in place is like queen of the schemies 1.00

01:07:33.640 everything everything well and it's like scheminess but also like often the scheminess 1.00

01:07:38.720 like that also counts for like intelligence or cleverness or resiliency but she was just like

01:07:42.200 she rolled with the punches like whatever was happening she was prepared and she had a plan 0.99

01:07:46.320 and like she was her schemes were not all good like bringing in only french diggies um politicians 0.93

01:07:53.260 like did not expecting her brothers to show up on time for anything yeah she was but her scheminess

01:08:00.960 was like quite unrelenting i think and then this is a complex one significance because i'm i'm not

01:08:07.880 gonna say it is it's it's not super significant that she's like um she herself personally is like

01:08:16.500 genetically the ancestor of you know james the first who was himself a significant king but

01:08:21.960 she's she had nothing to do with him and that was just an accident based on who died when

01:08:26.360 she i mean there's a lot of people that have genetics that contribute to james the first

01:08:31.800 didn't make him a good person but so if we think about her actions during her lifetime like i think

01:08:38.260 her significance to this story is like her actions as regent in scotland really set a bunch of things

01:08:46.560 in motion that led to the married queen of scots situation which itself was very significant

01:08:53.520 so i think her actions had like not so much in her life but like the long

01:08:59.740 ripple effects of them were significant i i think her i think if she had been anybody else

01:09:08.080 again the entire world would be slightly different but i i don't think she was like even me i i was

01:09:19.500 in seventh grade and checking out the antonia frazier uh mary queen of scott's biography every

01:09:26.160 other like every other month basically to read it from the library i and still i do not know that

01:09:33.540 much about marita geese yeah so even in within this the context of the story she's not like

01:09:38.920 extremely significant to the story but but she's important like it's this weird middle ground that

01:09:46.860 i like if you think if you imagine the sliding door is option of like what if princess madeline

01:09:52.640 hadn't died what if she had had a son before she died like and then if james had died and

01:09:59.020 And if Madeline, if Princess Madeline was the dowager queen of Scotland, like none of what

01:10:06.580 we just talked about would have happened because that wasn't what she was about.

01:10:10.160 You know, like, I don't even think, I don't think even Catherine de Medici would have

01:10:14.040 managed to get power because if she didn't have the de Guises to react to, she wouldn't

01:10:18.400 have been it. 0.98

01:10:19.100 Holy crap. 0.63

01:10:20.800 So like the fact that Marie was who she was did affect stuff, but it's just, I don't think

01:10:27.420 she herself and the significance category i think she might be like a five for significance what i

01:10:34.900 yeah i like she i i think a five is good because like her place in history was important yes and

01:10:43.240 what she did was important but she wasn't but she wasn't like so my god important it was just like

01:10:51.640 you can't do anything like even colonialism would be different without her the ripple effects are

01:10:58.120 huge again i will get to that later yeah no the ripple effects are huge but like her specific

01:11:02.680 actions within her lifetime yeah i think a five is just kind of like you know there is significance

01:11:09.020 and other people are more significant yes so then the final category is the sexism bonus which i

01:11:15.900 think is an interesting concept because it's like how much did the patriarchy get in her way i would

01:11:20.180 argue not that much i would argue a lot okay well let's get into it i mean literally fought the

01:11:27.500 patriarch well okay so i don't know i mean it's this weird thing where i don't know if she gets

01:11:33.280 a bonus from it because like all of the other scores are her bonus from it like literally

01:11:39.880 she's important and influential and a place in history because she was fighting the patriarchy

01:11:46.060 but the thing is that she did like it's like i would give her a high bonus if she hadn't been 0.94

01:11:50.380 able to become the regent if she if she hadn't like i don't think she gets as all of her other

01:11:56.480 scores are from that like like i think like if she'd gone to scotland and the men there weren't

01:12:01.780 awful and they had supported her things would have gone differently but i think i think she

01:12:06.760 wouldn't have been as important that didn't she didn't let that stop her but also like in terms

01:12:11.140 of sexism like the fact that the diggies is yeah her brothers were ding-dongs but like they trusted

01:12:17.120 her three of her brothers were ding-dongs the other ones were just too distracted with being

01:12:21.460 bishops and whatever but i think like she wasn't running france she was raised in a way that gave

01:12:28.000 her a fighting chance like she wasn't she was raised she was educated she was given these skills

01:12:32.400 like and in that sense like she that's better than a lot of women we've talked about on this podcast 1.00

01:12:37.780 like she was given the training to allow her to do what she did and i would give a higher sexism 0.73

01:12:44.720 bonus to someone who was never taught to read you know right but not by men oh true she wasn't given 0.97

01:12:50.620 that bonus by men in any way shape or form that was her mother sending her to a nunnery to be

01:12:57.640 raised by her grandmother who was an impressive woman in her own right but like to be raised 0.87

01:13:03.320 around strong women like again her bonus was she did not have the she her whole story was 0.96

01:13:12.720 this strong woman raised by strong women reacting to men so i don't think she like necessarily needs

01:13:18.640 a sexism bonus but i just want to point out that it's like it's very hard to subtract her from

01:13:24.100 sexism and subtract any part of her story from men just deciding that women weren't valuable or

01:13:30.620 important because like if she hadn't fought as much as she had mary wouldn't be as important 0.99

01:13:36.260 yeah it's even elizabeth wouldn't have had like without margaret and marie elizabeth wouldn't

01:13:43.260 have had as much of evidence to show that women can do this it's true and like john knox wouldn't

01:13:52.240 have been able to i love this right it's an incel movement they wouldn't have had as much 0.93

01:13:57.640 anger because like she triggered them so much that it like he was able to coalesce this movement of

01:14:05.720 like men who hate women because she was so powerful i'm gonna give her a five like a five

01:14:10.960 it's just sort of like it's there she worked around it but it didn't and it's like like this

01:14:18.700 is too big of a sliding doors moment to consider but like if she hadn't had to fight the patriarchy

01:14:23.440 her whole life like what could she have done i don't know maybe she would have just learned

01:14:27.360 watercolor watercolor painting like i don't know like if it scotland would have been well managed

01:14:33.880 that's what would have happened scotland would have been well it would have been like

01:14:38.360 all of their taxes would be in the right place and i'd be like i can't do an episode about this

01:14:43.000 this is just a person who managed a thing and did a good job at it all of her other points are 0.84

01:14:48.180 because she was fighting the patriarchy so like i agree with that so where this lands her just so

01:14:53.300 you know, and I have had requests every day. This is funny because Lana helps me with my website

01:14:59.340 on my like long to do list is I will at some point post the scandalous scale somewhere instead

01:15:05.000 of just a Google document that only I see. But for now, that's where it is.

01:15:08.840 You could even share the Google document with me. Yeah. And I could figure out a way to make

01:15:14.120 it easier for you. But I think it'd be nice to have it posted. And then you can like click on

01:15:18.160 the links to get to the podcast episodes. But this you know what, we're both busy. And maybe

01:15:22.020 one day we'll do that but um i will be less busy soon i will help okay but where'd she land so this

01:15:28.220 is a 26 and what i want to say is 26 is kind of like a very common score a lot of people get which

01:15:35.280 is interesting because people get there with different high scores in different categories

01:15:38.440 i'll tell you some other people who are at 26 margaret of anjou is a 26 um and ask you is a 26

01:15:46.460 ethel fled queen of the martians is a 26 frances howard is a 26 like it's well i mean well she

01:15:54.960 it's frances howard is like her score is like entirely scandalousness and it's like zero

01:15:59.800 significance so it's a different balance of things but this is where she lands marie diggies

01:16:05.040 and i think that i don't know it should be cc cc's score is low

01:16:10.560 does not mean i do not love no and that's the thing the scale does not mean we don't love

01:16:16.920 anybody it's just a nice way to wrap up an episode um yes i'm also glad that you're in

01:16:23.080 charge of the cut of the score this time and not me because yeah it's fun it's fun just saying

01:16:28.980 things just saying things and i do all the adding but yeah was there anybody who you would i don't

01:16:33.340 think so but maybe there's someone i've forgotten was there anyone in the story who you think was

01:16:38.180 a good friend to her who supported her who would be worthy of the lady jane seymour memorial award

01:16:44.140 for outstanding supporting performance only margaret i mean literally yeah her mother-in-law

01:16:51.520 and margaret already has her own score so yeah i don't and this is she had marie diggy has had a 0.62

01:16:58.660 bonus point good mother-in-law i mean i'll give it to antoinette but because antoinette deserves

01:17:04.700 awards of some variety i can give it to antonette but i feel like other like her family was supportive

01:17:10.920 of her in a way okay did you watch game of thrones i have read the book okay so i was forced to watch

01:17:18.620 the end of it so it's it drives me bananas how often things remind me of game of thrones but

01:17:25.300 it's like a good cultural touchstone a lot of people know and it's what i'm thinking he did a

01:17:29.780 of stealing from

01:17:31.920 English history, which makes it easier for you.

01:17:33.640 Every time I come across something, I'm like, that's where

01:17:35.700 George R. R. Martin got from. Anyway, do you remember?

01:17:38.320 You do know that it's

01:17:39.360 a fantasy retelling of

01:17:41.640 The War of the Roses, right? Yes.

01:17:43.480 So you know the

01:17:45.500 character played by, well

01:17:47.620 if you read the book, so

01:17:48.620 Marjorie, the character who's

01:17:51.580 brought in, she's the daughter, she's

01:17:53.540 played in the TV show by Natalie Dormer

01:17:55.120 and her grandmother is

01:17:57.460 played by Dame Diana Rigg. 0.90

01:17:59.780 and she comes in and they are marrying her to the like obviously gay somebody and she's just like

01:18:08.800 okay here i am and this is what like marie dickies and her whole situation reminds me of that family

01:18:14.380 they're called the tyrells the tyrell family where it's just like they're so smart and capable there's 1.00

01:18:20.280 this like matriarchal figure who just teaches everyone how to be good at scheming and everyone 1.00

01:18:24.960 is just like does it 1.00

01:18:26.880 and does it really well like it

01:18:28.580 that's that's the vibe like a family and there's other families

01:18:30.900 we've seen that are like that but this really epitomizes

01:18:33.000 that where they all

01:18:34.740 like I read an interview so Natalie Dormer

01:18:36.860 also played Anne Boleyn on the Tudors

01:18:38.860 and I remember somebody was saying like

01:18:40.960 how would you compare these characters what's

01:18:42.920 the difference and she was like the difference is that Marjorie 0.89

01:18:45.180 had the 0.99

01:18:46.160 constant reliable

01:18:48.720 support of her family at all times

01:18:50.780 and Anne Boleyn her family

01:18:52.740 support her sometimes not really 0.82

01:18:54.960 So like, I like for Marie de Guise that her family was just always, except for the Ding Dong brothers, which, which wasn't, which wasn't. 0.98

01:19:02.880 They were supporting her. 1.00

01:19:03.880 They just weren't good at it.

01:19:05.020 They were, they were just like, oh yeah, we'll totally get there in a second.

01:19:08.060 Like, I just, I got to get a couple more troops.

01:19:10.020 I'll be there in a minute.

01:19:10.800 Yeah, oh yeah, no, no.

01:19:11.240 To this backwater that you're stuck in.

01:19:12.640 I'll message you, I'll message you later.

01:19:14.100 I just have to like, whatever.

01:19:15.740 Like, red receipt on.

01:19:18.860 Yeah, like, I appreciate that her family had her back constantly because I've, I don't know.

01:19:23.840 there's other stories I've read even like the Tudors even like Margaret Tudor like as soon as 0.96

01:19:29.340 things went sour like Henry her brother just was just like well fuck you then like so I like reading 0.98

01:19:34.820 about a family that was just like ride or die they're just like we support you 100% and the 0.99

01:19:41.260 family and that was Antoinette that was that was that was 100% Antoinette because she outlived all

01:19:47.020 of her children except for yeah and and all of the boys would have just used her as a pawn and 1.00

01:19:52.800 thrown her away use use maria's upon and thrown her away to this backwater nowhere and just left

01:19:58.320 her there and antoinette is like no we support we support our family do what you got to do make

01:20:05.680 sure that that mary's throne is secure make sure like all this stuff they were they were doing what

01:20:11.520 their mother told them to do but they were also running their own schemes and that's i feel good

01:20:17.400 about putting Antoinette giving her the supporting performance like I created that award because it's

01:20:23.220 so rare in the people who I profile on this podcast that somebody is helpful to somebody

01:20:28.840 to that extent like I've done however many 100 episodes there's like 12 people on this list ever

01:20:34.240 like most people were stranded out there trying to do it on their own but she at least had she

01:20:39.480 knew that she could rely on her family asterix yeah when they got around to it but yeah so

01:20:45.340 Antoinette Bourbon definitely set up a situation in which Marie DeGues did as well as anyone could 0.98

01:20:52.700 have in the situation. And if there had been better healthcare, maybe things would have turned 1.00

01:20:56.820 out differently if she lived another 10 or 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. That's another one of those,

01:21:02.300 like who knows what would have happened. Yeah. Thank you, Lana. Do you have,

01:21:07.100 can you remind everybody how they can find you online and or support you financially?

01:21:15.340 i um i am lana with johnson and mostly i am available online at lana with johnson.com

01:21:24.960 um technically i do still have a twitter and technically i do still have an instagram but

01:21:29.060 they're not really active right now um i'm figuring some stuff out but uh if you're interested

01:21:35.420 in my weird takes on history you can read my two young adult novels that are young adult

01:21:42.220 contemporary romances that have a strange I'm sorry as one of my reviewers once said

01:21:47.980 an unnecessary amount of history in them for a young adult contemporary really you're sneaking

01:21:54.260 it in there you see like vegetables and a Jessica Seinfeld recipe yeah yes I mean um Anne Anne and I

01:22:01.280 are in fact friends because my first first book technically you started it uh originally started

01:22:05.900 out as a return of Martin Gare retelling and when I heard before that book was even published I was

01:22:11.960 just like someone has written a return of martin gare retelling as a why a novel and i was just

01:22:15.920 like i need to befriend this person because a cute mistaken identity rom-com slash return of

01:22:22.800 martin gare retelling and then um my other book speak for yourself is a queer nerdy love letter to

01:22:30.720 um cyrano de bergerac and his uh his feats of strength with his army buddies as a academic 0.71

01:22:38.940 decathlon team as a faux academic decathlon team because i wanted to make my own competition

01:22:45.000 and i just want to point out also that the main characters in both of your books are on the

01:22:51.460 asexual spectrum right yes yeah which and there's uh uh the first two characters the first book is

01:22:59.820 a text transcript between two very nerdy teenagers and um she uh goes on not necessarily not necessarily

01:23:07.040 voluntary questioning streak to identify herself as demisexual on the page. And the boy that is

01:23:15.020 desperately in love with her is on the page bisexual with aromantic inclinations. 0.90

01:23:23.220 Well, a gray romantic inclinations. And in my second book, there is non-binary, pan, and gay 0.91

01:23:31.920 bisexual rap so i yeah no i wanted to mention that especially especially because asexual

01:23:39.840 representation um is not always it's in books but it's not always on the page and it's not

01:23:45.880 even in your second book like you know that's what the character is like but it's not on the

01:23:49.240 page so it's not often discussed and so i want people to know that that's part of your books

01:23:52.400 yep no nobody's identity is on the page but everybody else's gets recognized and her asexual

01:23:58.640 Her gray asexuality and her romantic interest's gray asexuality is not recognized by people.

01:24:06.060 So I find that very interesting.

01:24:08.640 But that poor book, it came out three weeks after my mom died.

01:24:12.060 So it has not gotten the chance that it deserved in the middle of the pandemic.

01:24:15.780 Three weeks after my mom died in the middle of the pandemic.

01:24:17.560 So it hasn't gotten the promotion or love it probably deserves, but I love it very much.

01:24:22.840 Poor little pandemic baby book.

01:24:25.000 Well, thank you, Lana, as ever, for joining me.

01:24:27.520 Lana you're gonna be back we're gonna be doing Catherine de Medici who's my other favorite which

01:24:33.820 is like I just got a suggestion I think today or like people that's one that people are just like

01:24:39.520 oh have you people like surely you've done a Catherine de Medici episode I just can't find

01:24:43.060 it I'm like no I haven't I haven't because I haven't I haven't been ready I need this is why

01:24:47.440 this season is this is why I just want to clarify again this season so I'm doing like we talk in

01:24:53.880 multi-episodes about a person, Mary Queen of Scots. And then in between, it's a super special

01:24:58.820 where I do an author interview or I talk to an expert in something else. And then we come back

01:25:02.740 and that's just giving me the space I need to research all this stuff because I need to really,

01:25:08.920 Catherine de' Medici, like, come on, like, I can't, I need to come into this conversation

01:25:13.420 prepared. There's so many strong women, like Mary Queen of Scots is the story of strong women just

01:25:20.340 messing with each other and and the men in their lives it's and this is part of why i think this

01:25:25.700 story now that you say that like that is part of why it compels me um because it is like it's

01:25:30.640 almost entirely just women characters which as you know from vulgar peace theater is my preferred

01:25:35.400 type of story i i am the terrible one that makes you uh engage with men's stories because i paid

01:25:42.180 a lot of money to know what they were doing well thank you again lana for joining and i look forward

01:25:46.820 to our next discussion in I'm trying to think how the schedule works I think there's going to be a

01:25:52.800 super special like next week and then I think after that it is Catherine de Medici so you'll

01:25:57.220 be back again soon thank you for having me and so just a few closing remarks so I explained in

01:26:08.140 I'm going to keep explaining just so you know what to expect coming up this season which is that

01:26:12.700 just to keep us going with a regular weekly episode, but also giving me enough time to

01:26:18.240 record the interviews I need to and to do the research I need to do. Between each kind of

01:26:23.760 major Mary Queen of Scots person, we're going to take, the next week is going to be a super special.

01:26:29.980 So next week, we're going to be talking about not Mary Queen of Scots, but the week after,

01:26:35.840 wait for it, we're going to be talking about Catherine de' Medici, who was very, very,

01:26:41.700 very involved in the story of Mary Queen of Scots. She's one of my faves. I think Catherine

01:26:46.540 de' Medici is going to get a pretty substantive score on the Fredigan Memorial Scandal. So that's

01:26:53.400 in two weeks, Catherine de' Medici. Next week is super special. So just lots of, lots of vulgar

01:26:58.420 history out there for you to enjoy. And if you want to keep up with me, by which I mean the

01:27:04.680 podcast, so we're on Instagram at vulgarhistorypod. I've been really busy lately on TikTok at vulgar

01:27:11.620 history. I accidentally started a mini controversy about this portrait painting of Mary Tudor and

01:27:20.040 who is the portrait actually of. It's been, I don't know, I'm doing a bit of investigative

01:27:24.220 TikToking art history style over there. Anyway, I'm in TikToking folk or history. And you can

01:27:30.860 also get bonus content if one episode per week is not enough for you. If you support the podcast

01:27:36.740 on Patreon at patreon.com slash Anne Foster Writer. And that is a site slash service where

01:27:42.300 for a regular monthly fee, you get access to bonus stuff. So if you pledge at least a dollar

01:27:47.480 a month, you get early ad-free access to all episodes of Vulgar History. If you pledge $2

01:27:52.820 or more a month, you get that plus also access to polls and things. And last month I was doing the

01:27:58.400 March Madness, who is the most scandalous. As I record this, it's still being decided.

01:28:03.120 The final two were Fredegand and N'Jinga, and it's been like literally like 50-50 throughout the whole voting period.

01:28:11.740 Then it's like 51-49.

01:28:13.640 Like it's such a, I don't know, if you picture Fredegand versus N'Jinga in real life, like it's just as equally matched and ruthless as it might have been. 0.51

01:28:21.520 Anyway, and then also if you pledge $5 or more a month, you get access to bonus episodes. 0.82

01:28:28.340 So I do episodes of Vulgar Peace Theater where I'm joined by Lanoa Johnson.

01:28:32.780 today's guest, as well as other friend of the podcast, Alison Epstein. We talk about costume

01:28:36.960 dramas. Coming up soon, we're going to be talking about Corsage, the Empress Cece movie, which I'm

01:28:42.880 really excited to see what that's like and to talk about it. And then also on there, I do episodes

01:28:46.980 called So This Asshole, where I talk about terrible men and other people from history. Most recently, 0.96

01:28:52.040 I talked about F. Scott Fitzgerald and Zelda Fitzgerald, who were just a really toxic pair 0.99

01:28:58.640 of assholes zelda had a substantial amount of tits out moments and f scott fitzgerald 0.98

01:29:05.200 fuck that guy for real anyway so that's all on patreon um and also if you want to reach out for 1.00

01:29:12.360 me for any reason um you have a suggestion of somebody like me to talk about or you have 0.98

01:29:16.380 comments or feedback especially about these mary queen of scott's episodes because they have the

01:29:20.420 week in between there's time that if you have feedback or thoughts i can maybe i can read some

01:29:24.660 more comments from you, like I read the stuff from EK earlier. Anyway, so if you go to vulgarhistory.com,

01:29:29.980 there's a contact me page slash form where you can leave me a message, or you can also email me

01:29:34.680 directly at vulgarhistorypod at gmail.com. And I also have a newsletter that's nothing to do with

01:29:39.460 women's history. It's mostly about murder mysteries that I've been watching. I've been

01:29:43.720 watching Miss Marple lately, and it's a really good time. Anyway, my newsletter is at three

01:29:47.740 nicethings.substack.com. Again, Lana Wood Johnson is on social media at Mulebris, M-U-L-I-E-B-R-I-S,

01:29:57.220 and I'll put links to her books in the notes as well because they're really nerdy and good and

01:30:01.300 you should read them. I do also want to mention there was the little notice at the beginning of

01:30:05.760 the episode, and I'm going to be doing this all month, the tits out for trans rights, the Vulgar

01:30:10.620 History fundraiser, so you can get all the information about that at vulgarhistory.com

01:30:15.680 slash donate there's links there to to donate to the fundraiser for to to support the trevor

01:30:23.380 project there's also links there for this amazing new merch that i have all the all my profits from

01:30:29.540 this sale of this specific design is going to go to point of pride which is an organization

01:30:34.960 that helps trans people and to help they raise money for gender-affirming surgeries for binders

01:30:42.520 for all kinds of things to just like physically be there to help trans people anyway the new

01:30:47.800 merch design is a picture of the chevalier d'on who we talked about last season in the episode

01:30:52.160 with maya dean the chevalier was the iconic trans lady spy fencer who blackmailed the french king

01:31:01.860 amazing person anyway it's this beautiful drawing of the chevalier in her iconic black dress um

01:31:07.840 lunging with her fencing sword. And it says, we have always been here. And the artwork is

01:31:13.280 amazing and beautiful. And I'm so happy how it came together. I worked with an artist named

01:31:17.400 Jan Youpater, who is a non-binary artist from the Netherlands. And it was so much fun working

01:31:24.860 with them on this project. And you should, if you want to see, if you love the artwork,

01:31:28.820 I mean, obviously, if you purchase the sticker, the mug, the t-shirt, the cropped hoodie, whatever,

01:31:33.460 those you'll be helping raise money for Point of Pride. But also if you want to support Jan

01:31:36.960 Jupiter themselves. Their website is Jan Jupiter Illustratis, and I'll put a link to that in the

01:31:42.760 show notes as well. So again, next week, super special. Week after, Catherine de Medici, and

01:31:48.080 until then, keep your pants on and your tits out. Until next time. 1.00

01:31:55.000 Folk of History is hosted, written, and researched by Anne Foster, and edited by Christina Lumagi.

01:32:06.960 Before you knew what a stock was, you traded snacks, cards, turns.

01:32:11.840 That instinct to trade didn't disappear.

01:32:14.180 It just grew up.

01:32:15.300 With no minimums, no monthly fees, and 100 free trades,

01:32:18.680 TD Easy Trade taps into that instinct.

01:32:21.020 Because you are made to trade.

01:32:23.100 And TD Easy Trade is made to help.

01:32:27.280 Legendary stories, awe-inspiring sound, and endless adventure.

01:32:32.860 Welcome to the Realms of Peril and Glory.

01:32:39.060 Explore the mechanically magical vistas of Vale,

01:32:43.800 the paranormal mysteries of Liminal London,

01:32:48.920 and the cyberpunk chaos of Cyborg.

01:32:55.860 Fall in love with our core cast,

01:32:58.840 Or be awed by our incredible guests from familiar shows like Oxventure, Three Black Halflings, and No Rolls Barred.

01:33:09.880 Ignite your imagination and discover the Realms of Peril and Glory today.

01:33:15.700 Go to RealmsPod.com or search Realms of Peril and Glory wherever you listen to podcasts.

01:33:22.440 Two, one, you win!

01:33:25.440 Do you ever watch a TV show set in a historical time period and think, how accurate is this really?

01:33:32.000 But also, does it matter if it's accurate or not?

01:33:35.260 NeferTV is a new podcast about shows set in ancient times.

01:33:41.420 This season, we're recapping every episode of the show Spartacus, Blood and Sand.

01:33:46.500 I'm Anne Foster, and I have never seen this show before.

01:33:50.080 And I'm Gina Berry, and I have watched this show maybe too many times.

01:33:54.080 Join us every other Monday on the NeferTV podcast as we discuss the real history behind Spartacus, blood, and sand.

01:34:01.780 Follow NeferTV, that's N-E-F-E-R-T-V, wherever you get your podcasts.

Vulgar History - April 05, 2023

Mary, Queen of Scots： Mary's Mother, Marie de Guise： Part Two

Episode Stats

Transcript