Vulgar History - New Zealand Lady Pirate, Charlotte Badger

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast. My name is 0.73

00:00:15.820 Anne Foster, and in this series, we're looking at revolutions around the world, including

00:00:21.540 but not limited to the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Haitian Revolution,

00:00:26.960 and also just people whose lives themselves were revolutionary in different ways.

00:00:31.740 Ultimately, the long thesis of this series, which is going to go on for, I have to say,

00:00:37.020 a really long time. That's why I'm taking my time. Eventually, we're going to be getting

00:00:40.720 to Marie Antoinette herself. Technically, the name of the season is How Do You Solve

00:00:44.500 a Problem Like Marie Antoinette? And I mean that literally because the issue with her life

00:00:49.760 is that she eventually got caught up in this kind of wave of revolutions that was happening

00:00:54.560 all around the world, kind of like a wrong place, wrong time situation. But to understand the French

00:01:01.340 Revolution, I think you need to understand the American Revolution and just the spirit of

00:01:06.020 revolution that was happening all around the world in the 18th century, which brings us to

00:01:10.100 New Zealand. I've wanted to do a New Zealand episode for an incredibly long time because

00:01:16.380 I've been doing this podcast now for four years and New Zealand listeners are some of the first

00:01:22.820 people who reached out to me that made me realize like, Oh, there's people listening to the show

00:01:26.380 from all around the world. And I've wanted to cover a New Zealand story. And it just took me

00:01:30.260 well to find one that fits into this show and that fit into this theme. And it actually fits

00:01:36.480 really perfectly. So I'm going to, I don't want to spoil what we're going to talk about in the

00:01:41.580 episode coming up, but what I will say just as play setting, just so you're just like,

00:01:45.120 what does New Zealand have to do with revolutions of the 18th century? Because New Zealand also,

00:01:51.880 aka Eoteria, is one of the last places in the sequence of British colonial things. It was one 0.88

00:02:02.920 of the last places that eventually became part of the British Empire. That didn't happen until

00:02:07.080 the 19th century. In the time period we're looking at, New Zealand was 100% just the Maori people

00:02:14.460 were living on there. The first white person to, or the first kind of British explorer to head out

00:02:23.180 there was in 1769. And the story we're going to be talking here takes place in the early 1800s.

00:02:30.920 So it was still kind of a place where we'll talk about this in the episode. People kind of go to

00:02:35.820 Euteria to trade maybe now and then, but there was not settlements going on there. So again,

00:02:41.600 What does this have to do with the rest of the season? Well, so England used to send its convicts, like people who had been arrested and convicted of crimes to their colonies in America as a way to kind of, because they were just really trying to get as many kind of white people in America as possible to really develop that colonial project.

00:03:03.880 But then when the American Revolution happened, the United States was like, no, thanks. Please stop sending British convicts over here. And then England was like, well, what are we going to do with all these convicts? And so for a while, they literally just kept them floating around on a ship, I think like in the River Thames, just kind of like, what do we do with all of them? And then they're like, Australia. So then they started sending these convicts to Australia.

00:03:23.520 Australia, very close to New Zealand.

00:03:26.200 And that's kind of the person who we talk about in this story.

00:03:29.720 That's how she wound up in New Zealand.

00:03:32.080 And it's an interesting story in the sense of she starts off in one place, she goes to another place, she winds up in another place.

00:03:38.960 But Charlotte Badger is most remembered and best known, as much as she is known, for her significance to the history of New Zealand.

00:03:49.120 And I do want to give a special shout out to Zoe, listener Zoe, who I randomly on my Instagram one day was just like, is anyone from New Zealand, Aotaria, able to like help me with some questions? And so I hopped right on and she's been so helpful with kind of orienting me to understand various things about New Zealand history so I could, I could do this episode, I could prepare for this episode.

00:04:11.780 So she's now our official New Zealand cultural emissary.

00:04:15.620 But I also learned so much about New Zealand history and about Charlotte Badger from today's guest, who is Jennifer Ashton.

00:04:23.960 Jennifer Ashton is an Auckland-based technical writer and editor.

00:04:28.460 In 2012, she completed a PhD in history at the University of Auckland.

00:04:32.620 And she is the author of the book, Thief, Convict, Pirate, Wife.

00:04:38.480 Subtitle, The Many Histories of Charlotte Badger.

00:04:41.780 which really came in clutch for me in learning the story because I found the story so fascinating.

00:04:47.680 But then Charlotte Badger, like so many of the stories that we've looked at on this podcast

00:04:51.280 already, are kind of the myth about her. It sort of supersedes the actual truth about who she

00:04:56.320 actually was. Jennifer Ashton really put in the work. She was literally flying around the world 0.67

00:05:00.940 to find archives in various different countries to really track down who actually was Charlotte

00:05:05.060 Badger. And I'm so happy that Jennifer agreed to be on this podcast. And so please enjoy this

00:05:10.820 episode about Charlotte Badger with special guest Jennifer Ashton. So I'm joined today by

00:05:22.020 Jennifer Ashton, who is the author of Thief, Convict, Pirate, Wife, The Many Histories of

00:05:28.080 Charlotte Badger. And welcome, Jennifer. Thank you, Anne. It's very nice to be here.

00:05:33.500 So my first question for you, just to set the scene, do you remember when you first heard about

00:05:39.260 Charlotte Badger? There's a small amount about her in a museum, the National New Zealand Museum

00:05:45.640 Te Papa in Wellington. And I thought, oh, that's an interesting sounding character.

00:05:52.400 And then I was writing a book, a doctorate, as a result of a doctorate, about John Webster,

00:05:58.940 who was a trader, timber trader, just north of where I live in New Zealand. And in order to

00:06:04.360 write about him, I had to do a lot of background reading about that part of the country. And she

00:06:07.800 kept coming up. And because I was writing a biography of Webster, I was kind of interested

00:06:15.260 in how you go about writing the life histories of people who don't leave a lot of information

00:06:21.300 behind. And she seemed like a particular challenge because he's almost nothing. So yeah, I was

00:06:27.200 interested in her both because she just sounded like she had this incredible life, but also

00:06:32.140 as a sort of challenge about, you know, how would you actually write something about someone like

00:06:37.000 her so that's kind of how I hooked on to her originally and she's got we've talked about I

00:06:44.160 have talked about other people like this in the podcast before where there's a legend or a

00:06:48.960 mythology that builds up around a person that's not always telling the story of the real person

00:06:55.560 so that she has that real dichotomy about her where there's these legends of this pirate

00:06:59.480 But then actually, who was she really?

00:07:03.540 Yeah, that's right.

00:07:04.620 And there's a few general histories of New Zealand written by, you know, quite big name academics in this country.

00:07:13.380 And they told the story about her, about how she had taken part in this act of piracy in Sydney.

00:07:21.420 And they'd come to New Zealand.

00:07:23.980 And she had apparently led the mutiny.

00:07:26.320 and then she'd sort of stayed in New Zealand for a while

00:07:29.580 and married a local Maori chief

00:07:32.100 and then possibly escaped and gone to Tonga

00:07:35.880 or maybe even to the US.

00:07:38.580 And that story has been repeated quite a lot,

00:07:41.660 as I say, in some fairly well-known history books.

00:07:45.500 But when you dig into it,

00:07:47.600 actually a lot of that doesn't stand up to scrutiny,

00:07:51.860 which is sort of kind of where my book came in, I think.

00:07:54.500 exactly and that's where i found your book so helpful because before i found that i think i

00:07:59.480 was just coming across the same that mythology and that just kind of tweaked my senses where i

00:08:04.820 was like this there's no proof of any of this this just kind of sounds like a tall tale and a lot of

00:08:10.900 it is a lot of it is yeah so she was if we're going to go kind of through it's also interesting

00:08:17.420 that she her life is there's a part in england australia new zealand so it's kind of takes place

00:08:23.240 in different places. So even the fact she's born in England, I thought, oh, that's surprising

00:08:26.980 because I hadn't thought of that. So can you describe what you were able to find out about

00:08:31.680 her earliest years? Sure. Yeah. And I think the thing about Charlotte Badger is there is this

00:08:37.160 mythology about her, which is, as you say, a tall tale. But actually, to me, the actual story of

00:08:45.080 her life, which you're able to kind of find through documentary evidence, is just as interesting.

00:08:51.740 So she starts off in, she's born in 1778 in a town called Bromsgrove,

00:08:58.720 which is now on a commuter town for Birmingham in England.

00:09:04.260 Her father's a labourer.

00:09:05.620 He's kind of at the very bottom of English society.

00:09:09.300 And when she's 18, she breaks into a house of a guy called Benjamin Wright.

00:09:16.900 And she steals quite a lot of money from him.

00:09:18.660 It's a half crown and I think about five guineas.

00:09:23.000 So a pretty significant amount of money. 0.93

00:09:25.440 And she's convicted of that.

00:09:27.440 And she then spends four years in Worcester Jail awaiting transportation to Australia

00:09:32.960 because this is the early days of convict transportation to New South Wales.

00:09:39.540 So that's where she's ultimately headed.

00:09:41.820 And she's convicted in 1796. 0.75

00:09:45.180 So she would be a, I'm just thinking she's a young teenager at this time.

00:09:49.940 She's about 18 when she breaks in.

00:09:53.880 So she's quite, yeah, it's quite, and the interesting thing about that is housebreaking was a crime that was more normally carried out by men.

00:10:03.460 So she was quite, you know, she's something a bit brazen about that crime coming from such a young woman.

00:10:11.920 And so, yeah, she does her four years in jail, and then she's put on a transport ship, and she arrives in Sydney in 1801.

00:10:23.020 So I want to talk a bit about her.

00:10:25.020 You mentioned that this was a brazen crime, especially for a young woman.

00:10:29.460 The severity of her punishment seems so extreme to me, even just four years in jail.

00:10:35.840 and you have some theories in your book you talk about why she might have done this and why the

00:10:41.480 punishment was what it was yeah there's a there's a bit of speculation about her relationship with

00:10:47.800 benjamin wright some there's a couple of writers who think she may have been employed by him which

00:10:53.020 is it's possible that she'd been like a house servant and that possibly that relationship had

00:10:58.480 broken down. Or maybe he was just a local wealthy person and the family was in desperate need of

00:11:06.800 money. We can't really be sure why she commits the crime. But she then fails to benefit from any kind

00:11:14.900 of discretion that's built into the justice system. So at any point, Benjamin Wright could

00:11:21.540 have said, okay, give me the money back and we'll forget about it. Or the grand jury could

00:11:28.340 have said, yeah, no, we're not going to charge her. So there's all these steps along the

00:11:34.180 way that someone could have said, no, we're not going to charge this young woman. She 1.00

00:11:41.160 doesn't benefit from any of that discretion. So there's obviously something about her,

00:11:45.980 there's something about the crime she's committed that is taken really seriously. And at the

00:11:50.780 time there was this um thing called the bloody code in in operation in in england which kind of

00:11:59.260 property crimes were viewed extremely seriously and i think it was partly the result of you know

00:12:06.540 the industrial the coming industrial revolution people were acquiring all these goods for the

00:12:11.220 first time and if and they didn't want them stolen so if somebody stole your you know your

00:12:17.220 hard-earned money or your goods, then that was taken really seriously. And when she was convicted,

00:12:25.480 she actually got the death penalty. Like a lot of people in the category, she was originally

00:12:31.640 sentenced to death. And then the judge has to write off to the king and ask for the royal mercy

00:12:38.940 so she's pardoned. And then she can just be transported for the rest of her life.

00:12:42.900 And that's what happened to her. And it's what happened to, you know, thousands of people. But as I say, in order to get to that point, she sort of, she had to kind of miss out on all these other discretionary steps where she could have just been sent home and with a, you know, with a slap on the wrist.

00:12:59.880 so the industrial revolution is kind of coming at this time in england as i understand it there is

00:13:06.600 general unrest just because of widespread poverty and things like this you know she

00:13:12.080 she committed this crime presumably because she and her family were in need of money or maybe

00:13:18.960 there is some form of vengeance maybe she had been let go from that position so she was in a real

00:13:24.660 hard spot she would have known too that this would be the punishment if she was caught and

00:13:31.120 it seems like she was caught quite quickly quite quickly yeah I sort of I used to try and figure

00:13:36.980 that one out and I I just kind of thought well you know young people you know often don't have

00:13:43.120 that sense of I better not do this because there'll be consequences you know I think at the

00:13:47.260 time you're not really thinking of the consequences particularly as you say if you're angry if you're

00:13:52.300 desperate. If something's going on, then you're just focusing on what you think you need to do

00:14:00.040 next. But yeah, you write about the Industrial Revolution as well. And there was this explosion

00:14:06.400 in England of the young population. There were a lot of young people in the country at the time.

00:14:13.180 And I think the authorities were kind of worried about them, worried about them and how to control

00:14:19.900 them. So one of the reasons I think she doesn't get the benefit of the doubt is that they're

00:14:26.320 worried about young people. And they're also, she also doesn't benefit from the fact that she's got

00:14:32.520 a male accomplice. Because if she'd had a male accomplice, they might've said, oh, well,

00:14:37.400 we'll punish him, but not her because she's under his influence. She acts alone. So she's a young 0.88

00:14:44.880 person she's done something outrageous and she's a young woman acting alone so you know that's

00:14:52.740 kind of particularly scary and at this time the whole concept of sending prisoners to australia

00:15:00.860 what was the intent of that because people were sent to australia not not to be returned after

00:15:07.760 necessarily. It was just kind of... No. Was it partially to build up the colony there?

00:15:15.280 Yeah. So at the time, there wasn't the concept that we have these days of rehabilitation.

00:15:20.860 So we send people to prison and we try and rehabilitate them while they're in there.

00:15:25.720 And we think that there's some kind of chance of doing that. At the time, there was no idea that

00:15:31.440 these people could be reformed. They were kind of seen as criminal types and the best you could do

00:15:39.360 was just get rid of them. So previously they had been going to the American colonies

00:15:46.680 and after the American War of Independence that wasn't an option anymore. So for a while they

00:15:54.900 actually kept men, I think, exclusively on these ships that were moored just off the

00:16:02.920 coast or in the Thames, these sort of holding pens, really.

00:16:08.580 And then after James Cook's visit to Voyages of Discovery, he comes upon Botany Bay in

00:16:16.800 New South Wales, and Joseph Banks, who was the botanist on his first voyage, comes back

00:16:22.460 and says, oh, there's a really good place that you could, you know,

00:16:25.180 consider setting up as the new convict destination.

00:16:29.540 So that's what they do in 1788.

00:16:34.120 And so, yeah, the idea is, okay, this is the new place

00:16:37.540 where we can just offload all our criminal types.

00:16:41.820 But there is this discussion in some historical circles,

00:16:47.940 among historical writers, there has been this discussion about,

00:16:50.860 well, what was the point of setting up New South Wales?

00:16:53.100 Was it just to dump these people?

00:16:56.120 Or was it to kind of set up this colony in the South Pacific

00:17:00.360 that could kind of compete with France, you know,

00:17:04.040 because Britain and France were having this kind of global contest at the time?

00:17:09.880 And, you know, the idea was, okay, well, maybe if we stake a claim in Australia

00:17:15.780 or on the Australian continent, that that will kind of keep the French at bay. 0.97

00:17:19.140 And I think it's kind of doing both of those things. It serves both of those purposes. It's definitely a long way away. Those people are never coming back. If you send your convicts there, most of them, the overwhelming majority, will just never come back. But also, it allows Britain to kind of set up camp in the South Pacific as well. 0.98

00:17:39.840 and in terms of just it's so far away you really you delve into this in your book in a way that i

00:17:46.480 found you described how long it took for the ship to get from england to australia and it was

00:17:51.800 something like a year right yeah it's it's months um i think they set out at the end the ship that

00:17:58.440 was on they set out at the end of 1800 and they get there in june 1801 and that was kind of the

00:18:05.640 case, for a long time, even my own family came decades later. And it was about a six-month

00:18:13.580 journey on a sailing ship. And it was hazardous even in the sort of mid to later 19th century.

00:18:22.400 But at the time that Charlotte Badger was setting out on those convict ships, it was really

00:18:28.600 dangerous because the early convict transportation ships were, they weren't really subject to

00:18:37.240 very much government regulation at all.

00:18:39.220 So the government would hire these ships, often East Indiamen, so they were the ships

00:18:45.760 built for the East India Company to travel from England to either Bombay or Calcutta,

00:18:52.700 so they're really big, big ships.

00:18:54.980 But they were kind of privately operated.

00:18:57.620 So there wasn't a lot of oversight in terms of what was happening.

00:19:02.900 And the second fleet, so the first fleet that goes to Australia is 1788,

00:19:08.700 arrives in January 1788.

00:19:11.320 And the second fleet, I think, is 1789 or 1790.

00:19:15.060 I can't quite remember, but it's not that long after.

00:19:19.440 And it has a terrible time.

00:19:21.240 There's a shocking mortality rate on some of the, I think there's three ships in the

00:19:27.300 second fleet, and one of them in particular has just a shocking mortality rate.

00:19:33.020 And that kind of continues, and the ship that Charlotte Badger was on, the one that had

00:19:38.740 gone just before her, the Hillsborough, I think it was typhoid or something, typhoid

00:19:44.620 or typhus, had gone through everybody on that ship.

00:19:49.360 And again, there'd been this shocking mortality rate.

00:19:52.520 So it was extremely dangerous.

00:19:54.200 You know, you got on that ship and you didn't actually know that you were going to make it to the other end.

00:19:58.600 And I think she was on board a ship called the Earl Cornwallis.

00:20:02.980 It was taking supplies to the new colony at Sydney Cove.

00:20:09.180 And a lot of those supplies got ruined because of, you know, the seawater kind of got in.

00:20:17.800 And they had to, the route that they took, they would leave England,

00:20:21.040 they would go sort of down the Spanish-Portuguese coast,

00:20:25.780 and then they'd shoot over to Rio de Janeiro,

00:20:28.540 and then they'd go down to Cape Town, go around the Cape of Good Hope,

00:20:32.540 and then head across the Southern Ocean.

00:20:34.620 And it was a pretty precarious, dangerous trip for her

00:20:40.280 and for all convicts, really.

00:20:42.980 And in addition, in terms of the danger on the ship as well, it's far more men than women.

00:20:49.380 So there's also a sexual danger as well.

00:20:54.540 Yes, that's right. Particularly with the crew, I think there was a bit of kind of predation, I think, going on.

00:21:04.440 And some of those relationships were probably consensual.

00:21:08.980 But I think, yeah, there was a bit that you didn't really have a choice.

00:21:15.460 If you wanted to kind of survive on that ship, you had to give in to the crew.

00:21:21.560 There were a range of dangers that you faced, particularly as a woman on those ships.

00:21:26.080 And this is where, again, you mentioned this in your book, but just picturing Charlotte Badger, who's this young woman.

00:21:31.780 By now she's in her early 20s. 0.94

00:21:33.040 she's been in jail for four years and then suddenly she's taken so far out of her lived

00:21:37.960 experience like first of all just being on a ship chances are she's never been on a ship and then

00:21:43.180 for so long like her whole everything she was brought up knowing is not useful anymore she's

00:21:50.360 in this completely different world so it's impressive that she survived that sea voyage

00:21:55.520 at all and she did yeah and she did yeah yeah and then you get off at the other end you're in

00:22:01.840 Australia? You're in Australia and I don't know how many of your listeners have been to Australia

00:22:07.920 but it's you know Sydney is pretty different from Worcestershire. You know the climate is

00:22:17.240 it is harsh it's you know they get it's obviously hot they get flash flooding the early colony

00:22:26.300 is it really struggles to feed people

00:22:30.060 because they try to grow crops

00:22:33.040 and those crops get destroyed by flash flooding.

00:22:38.800 So, yeah, again, you get off the ship

00:22:42.680 and you think you've dealt with the dangers of being at sea

00:22:47.380 and then you get to your destination

00:22:49.080 and all of a sudden there's all these other troubles

00:22:52.480 and dangers that you have to deal with.

00:22:54.760 And I got the sense that

00:22:56.300 no one there really knew what to do. It's not, you got there and there was this well-established,

00:23:02.080 thriving colony that you could join. Everyone was kind of, no one had been there for very long

00:23:07.640 because it was still a pretty new thing. Yeah. Yeah. I think the colonies by 1801,

00:23:13.740 it's beginning to kind of put down roots, but certainly in the 1790s, yeah, Sydney had had a

00:23:21.240 really troubled birth, I think, again, in terms of just sustaining itself, you know, and really

00:23:28.900 struggling to sustain itself. And things are getting a bit better. But there's also ongoing

00:23:35.060 conflict with, you know, the people who are already living there, you know, the Aboriginal

00:23:40.880 people who are already living there. And there's, there's kind of raids on sort of settler outposts.

00:23:49.200 So yeah, it is a difficult place to be.

00:23:52.960 And can you just explain what the prisoners were doing there?

00:23:58.120 Like they were sent to Australia because it was just seen as you're prisoners, you're criminals, we don't want you in England.

00:24:05.400 But then once they get to Australia, they're not really put in a jail.

00:24:09.420 They're kind of put to labor to clear the land and things.

00:24:13.980 That's right, yeah.

00:24:14.800 So it's not like a prison farm.

00:24:17.740 It's more like a, it's kind of like a, well, I suppose it's more like a free range prison

00:24:23.720 farm.

00:24:24.380 So because the colonial government is not particularly strong, there isn't a big bureaucracy

00:24:32.700 there to kind of organize people.

00:24:35.440 That sort of comes later.

00:24:37.440 Things do become much more regimented in New South Wales.

00:24:41.040 But early on, yeah, people are put to labor.

00:24:44.380 People have to perform certain tasks in order to keep the colony going.

00:24:50.780 But you also have quite a lot of freedom.

00:24:53.400 Once you've done the hours that are required of you, you can go off and work for yourself

00:25:00.000 and earn some money for yourself and sell your labor to maybe one of the free settlers

00:25:06.820 who needs some extra help.

00:25:09.340 So it's this weird sort of dichotomy in a way that you've been sent to the other side

00:25:14.880 of the world.

00:25:15.420 You have been banished from your home.

00:25:17.680 You know, you have been labeled a criminal, but you get to this place and yeah, life is

00:25:23.520 hard, but you do have, you do have a measure of freedom as well.

00:25:28.320 It's funny to me, like just understanding that it seems like the concept of your punishment

00:25:35.560 is just, you have to be in Australia.

00:25:37.240 That's the punishment.

00:25:38.200 But once you're there, you can kind of, you have some freedom.

00:25:42.440 Yeah, you can get on with it.

00:25:44.180 Yeah, which is interesting because she is eventually freed.

00:25:47.540 Yeah, she's eventually, I could never quite figure out when this happened,

00:25:51.900 but she is eventually freed by servitude.

00:25:56.080 So she gets convicted for a seven-year sentence.

00:26:01.120 I think the sentence actually goes on longer than that,

00:26:04.220 possibly because just nobody gets around to kind of doing the paperwork.

00:26:08.200 But eventually, by, I think I forget which census it is, but sort of by the 18, by about 1815, 1820, she's recorded as being freed by servitude.

00:26:21.820 So she's done her time and she's a free one.

00:26:24.420 And she's also had a child.

00:26:26.420 Yeah, she had, I think in all, she had possibly three children, but only one seems to have survived.

00:26:35.300 and her name was Maria or Mariah and she was born I think about 1811, 1812.

00:26:46.960 But she had had an earlier, earlier on she had given birth to a child who doesn't seem to have

00:26:52.420 survived and that child may have died in New Zealand. Well because now in her story we're

00:26:58.360 getting up to the part that the mythology is all built about which is she goes on a ship to

00:27:05.180 New Zealand. She gets on a ship to what's now Tasmania, what was then Van Diemen's land. So

00:27:13.260 that island off the south coast of Australia. And so what's happening is Hobart, which is

00:27:21.260 the capital of Tasmania these days, that was being established as a kind of new town,

00:27:26.700 a satellite town for Sydney. And they needed people to go there. They were sending members

00:27:33.980 of the Marine Corps to set up this new settlement, and the Marine Corps needed help of various

00:27:42.140 kinds.

00:27:42.660 And I think, again, it's really impossible to tell exactly why she was going, but the 0.87

00:27:49.480 best guess is that she was going to act as domestic help in that new settlement.

00:27:55.380 And so, yeah, she got on board a ship called the Venus, and they were headed ultimately

00:28:00.720 for Hobart.

00:28:01.660 but things go awry on the way.

00:28:05.660 And this is where stories vary, what exactly happened.

00:28:09.760 So what we can establish from the man who was in charge of the ship,

00:28:16.480 he was master captain, his name was Samuel Rodman Chase,

00:28:21.940 he leaves behind an account of what he says happened.

00:28:25.960 So they set out. He's taking supplies from Sydney to Hobart for the new settlement. He's also taking a few passengers and he's got a crew on board. His first mate is a man called Benjamin Kelly.

00:28:44.280 And they set out, and things begin to go wrong right from the start.

00:28:47.520 They spend a couple of weeks at a place called Twofold Bay, which is on the New South Wales coast,

00:28:53.540 and Chase seems to be interested in kind of reclaiming iron from a ship that's wrecked there.

00:29:00.200 But relationships start to kind of break down.

00:29:02.900 There's tensions between Chase and the crew.

00:29:06.160 They eventually set out for Hobart,

00:29:09.720 and Chase records that there's a woman on board called Catherine Haggerty

00:29:14.960 and she's becoming quite feisty, quite difficult.

00:29:19.460 She throws a box of papers overboard. 0.96

00:29:22.820 She seems like she might be in a relationship with Kelly

00:29:25.560 and possibly she's taking his side in Kelly's arguments with Chase.

00:29:30.760 And they get to the Tasmanian coast place called Port Dalrymple

00:29:36.780 and they anchor there.

00:29:40.940 Chase goes on shore to kind of report to the local authorities

00:29:46.440 and while he's away, the crew basically mutiny

00:29:52.480 and steal the ship and head for New Zealand

00:29:56.000 and that much we can establish

00:29:59.140 but what actually happened on board is

00:30:02.980 and who kind of led the mutiny

00:30:05.340 is the bit where it all becomes a bit speculative

00:30:09.980 and where Charlotte Badger's role has been the subject of mythologising.

00:30:17.900 And what was the status of New Zealand at this point? 0.58

00:30:21.600 Because Australia prison colonies are springing up there,

00:30:25.620 but what's happening in New Zealand? 0.99

00:30:27.380 So New Zealand is 100% controlled by Maori, the local Maori population,

00:30:33.380 population, various tribes, what we refer to as iwi, they are in control of New Zealand. 0.96

00:30:42.300 And there are no white settlements or Pākehā settlements. There are, however, visiting whaling

00:30:50.020 ships. So the whaling and sealing industries are getting underway around the New Zealand coast.

00:30:57.120 So whaling ships would go to Sydney or Norfolk Island, which is slightly north of New Zealand, between New Zealand and Australia, and then they would come and fish, as they called it, around the coast of New Zealand.

00:31:16.320 And some Maori chiefs, particularly in the northern part of the country, they were interested in cultivating relationships with these whaling captains and trading with them.

00:31:32.340 So they would, you know, offer them a safe harbour.

00:31:36.180 They would offer them water, food, shelter.

00:31:39.620 And that's kind of what was happening in New Zealand at the time.

00:31:43.120 So when the Venus sets out for New Zealand, they know that there are these places in the north of the country where you can get shelter. 0.63

00:31:54.740 I was just curious why that was their destination, this mutinous crew. 0.87

00:32:01.800 So they had a plan.

00:32:03.500 They had a plan.

00:32:04.940 And I think Benjamin Kelly had been on board another ship that had visited the Bay of Islands.

00:32:12.700 So this is the place in the north of New Zealand that was a particularly favoured spot for these whaling ships.

00:32:21.200 And I'm pretty sure he had been on a ship that had visited the bay.

00:32:25.080 So he kind of knew what awaited them if they came here.

00:32:29.820 Do we know where exactly they touched down?

00:32:32.580 Was it in one of these ports?

00:32:34.740 Yeah, so it's in the Bay of Islands.

00:32:37.200 It's a place, I'm pretty sure it's a place called Wairoa Bay, which is a lovely place even today.

00:32:47.200 It's really lovely. 0.59

00:32:49.960 And yeah, it could potentially offer them everything they needed, but they were going to have to live in a Maori community under the protection of a Maori chief.

00:33:02.840 and he was going to have to agree to accept them and offer them shelter

00:33:07.820 because it just really wasn't possible in 1806 when all of this was happening.

00:33:13.840 It wasn't possible to come to New Zealand as a European sailor

00:33:18.900 and not live on the terms of the local leadership.

00:33:24.000 And they wouldn't have been able to return to Australia or to England

00:33:27.280 because of the mutiny, I would presume.

00:33:30.000 That's right.

00:33:30.560 It's kind of, for most of them in particular, for the men and for people like Benjamin Kelly, although he was American, so he kind of, he had a way out, I guess, but for a lot of the other people on board, it was a one-way trip.

00:33:48.140 And so Charlotte is, and her child, I think, just so people are clear, she had a young child with her during all of this.

00:33:55.400 She does. Yeah, there's a public notice issued in the wake of the mutiny listing the people on board. And she's listed in that public notice as having an infant child. So I can't find any record of that child actually being born. That's not necessarily unusual. But yeah, she had a small child with her.

00:34:18.140 And so she – well, explain what happens, because she stays behind in New Zealand, but the others leave or something like that?

00:34:26.840 Yeah, so they get to the Bay of Islands, and pretty much they split into two groups.

00:34:34.100 About half a dozen of them, Benjamin Kelly, Catherine Haggerty, Charlotte Badger, another convict called John William Lancashire, and potentially two cabin boys.

00:34:45.300 they get off the ship in the bay.

00:34:48.980 And I think that's because, as I say, Kelly had been there before.

00:34:53.360 He kind of knew, I think, that this would be a good place to stop.

00:34:59.600 The rest of the crew say, no, no, we're not interested in stopping.

00:35:04.020 We're going to keep going.

00:35:05.460 And so, yes, another sailor takes charge of the ship, of the Venus,

00:35:11.440 and it heads off down the coast and it's never seen again.

00:35:15.300 So that's kind of, we just don't know what happens to the Venus.

00:35:19.580 But yeah, that's kind of the last that we ever hear of them.

00:35:23.040 And so Charlotte, correct me if I'm wrong, but she's maybe the first European woman to live in New Zealand?

00:35:31.760 Yeah, there's actually, she and Catherine Haggerty are the first European woman to live amongst Maori.

00:35:41.880 so about 10 years earlier

00:35:45.140 there had been another couple of women

00:35:47.120 who had ended up shipwrecked

00:35:49.820 at the very bottom of the South Island

00:35:52.820 in a place called Dusky Sound

00:35:55.140 but they don't interact with Maori

00:35:57.640 they're there for a few months

00:35:59.940 but yeah they don't

00:36:01.420 there's no record of any kind of interaction with Maori

00:36:05.520 but Charlotte Badger and Catherine Haggerty

00:36:07.860 are the first European women

00:36:09.500 to live in a local community.

00:36:12.860 And they're there for a year or so.

00:36:15.340 They're there for, Charlotte Badger is there, I think,

00:36:18.620 for about six to eight months.

00:36:21.980 Yeah, and Catherine Haggerty at some point dies

00:36:26.740 inside that six to eight month window.

00:36:30.180 Yeah, she's recorded as having died.

00:36:33.760 And we don't know how, and we don't know why,

00:36:37.300 and we don't know exactly when.

00:36:40.000 I mean, I guess how much can be known,

00:36:42.140 but we just know she's living amongst the Maori

00:36:43.800 for six, seven months.

00:36:45.600 And now for a quick advertising break.

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00:39:21.640 And we're back.

00:39:23.220 Just in terms, I'm just thinking back to this, you know, young woman born in this poor family in England.

00:39:27.700 Like she's on yet another unexpected, unprecedented journey for someone like her.

00:39:33.200 And she again survives.

00:39:35.020 Absolutely.

00:39:35.680 I mean, I think going to Sydney would be strange enough.

00:39:39.440 You know, the change in climate, the change in the physical environment, you know, the

00:39:44.960 plants, the sky at night is different.

00:39:48.260 You know, everything in Sydney would have been different, but you're still living in 1.00

00:39:53.280 a European settlement surrounded by people who dress like you, who look like you, who 0.67

00:39:57.320 speak the same language as you. You encounter Aboriginal people probably, but they're at arm's 0.99

00:40:03.340 length. And then she comes to New Zealand and she's living in an environment that is, again, 1.00

00:40:11.540 even more different. You know, again, the physical environment is different. The climate is different.

00:40:17.540 But you're now living amongst people who don't speak the same language as you, who don't look

00:40:22.880 like you who don't dress like you and you're living on their terms it's their community that

00:40:28.300 you're living in and you have to you know you have to just fit in somehow uh even even though

00:40:35.460 you know communication would be a barrier you you just have to kind of do your very best to fit in

00:40:42.320 and i and i and i i've thought a lot about how strange that would be and what you know what a

00:40:47.820 a modern-day equivalent would be.

00:40:50.760 And it would kind of be like going into the depths

00:40:54.100 of the Amazon rainforest and finding one of those, you know,

00:40:58.600 communities that don't have a lot of contact with the outside world

00:41:02.180 and just kind of having to live there for six months.

00:41:05.840 That's, you know, that's the equivalent.

00:41:07.860 So, yeah, if you've come from a small industrialising town in England

00:41:12.320 and this is where you end up, it's, you know,

00:41:15.460 it's an extraordinary journey.

00:41:16.720 And I'm thinking too, in terms of a contemporary person, it's hard for me to think of just in terms of the level of not specifically education, but just in our world today, you know, there's documentaries and there's videos, YouTube, like I've seen what other cultures are like, even if I've not lived amongst them, but she wouldn't have ever known.

00:41:40.180 She would just show up there and she can't be like, oh, this is kind of like this, this, okay.

00:41:43.720 Like to her, it would just be, she's no frame of reference for.

00:41:49.680 There's no frame of reference.

00:41:51.500 That's right.

00:41:52.740 Yeah.

00:41:53.280 It's like I say, it's, it's, it's very, very hard to get your head around how, how different it would have been for her.

00:42:02.500 And she, she is able, someone comes to get her eventually and she does choose to leave.

00:42:08.040 She chooses to leave.

00:42:10.920 I guess she could have stayed, but that.

00:42:14.180 Yeah.

00:42:15.100 So they arrive in New Zealand about July 1806, I think.

00:42:20.280 And around Christmas time, there is a captain whose name is Iber Bunker.

00:42:27.620 And he shows up because he's heard about this group that are living at the bay.

00:42:33.600 And I think he knows that they are from the Venus.

00:42:38.040 So he calls in there and he sees her, he meets her.

00:42:43.260 Catherine Haggerty has, by this point, died.

00:42:46.980 But he offers Charlotte Badger a return voyage to Sydney and she says,

00:42:50.920 no thanks, I'll stay here and take my chances.

00:42:55.780 But at some point not very long after that, another whaling captain shows up

00:43:01.100 and she's changed her mind.

00:43:04.260 and he's on a ship called the Indispensable

00:43:08.840 and he takes her to Norfolk Island

00:43:11.440 and that's how she leaves New Zealand

00:43:15.160 and that's, I think, early 1807,

00:43:18.340 so maybe kind of January, February 1807.

00:43:21.380 And this is, again, just there's so much,

00:43:23.400 because we don't know anything about her inner life.

00:43:26.140 There's no diary or anything like that.

00:43:28.620 But why would she say no

00:43:30.420 and then she would say yes to the next person?

00:43:32.520 You know, what's changed?

00:43:33.280 It's just, it's so fascinating to think about.

00:43:35.720 Yeah, I want, yes, I wonder whether it's something to do with the infant child that she's got,

00:43:41.260 because when she gets on The Indispensable, there's a record, a very brief record of her

00:43:48.760 arriving in Norfolk Island, and, or actually no, it's leaving Norfolk Island, and there

00:43:55.660 is no child recorded, it's just her.

00:43:59.160 And I wonder whether maybe between Bunker offering her the passage

00:44:06.720 and the next captain, I think it's Turnbull, offering her the passage,

00:44:11.020 maybe her child had died and so she was completely alone at that point.

00:44:17.520 Everybody else had gone, the two men, Kelly and John William Lancashire,

00:44:24.000 They had left on different ships.

00:44:28.720 Catherine Haggerty's died.

00:44:31.280 And it's just her that's left.

00:44:32.680 So maybe it's something to do with that.

00:44:35.680 But it's, yeah, again, it's one of those imponderable things,

00:44:39.080 what did change for her.

00:44:40.220 This is what's so interesting about the research you've done

00:44:43.260 and just following the life of this woman's unusual life for this time and place.

00:44:50.020 You just know she went on the ship, then she departed here.

00:44:53.400 and piecing it together it's just it's every turn is just so surprising and intriguing

00:44:58.100 yeah that's right it's it's like there's just little scraps of information though so

00:45:03.700 you can't even know what her internal life was you can't really know why she made the decisions

00:45:10.220 that she did but you know tracing her around the world you have to assume she was a fairly

00:45:17.320 remarkable person in order to survive all of this you know yeah she must there must have been a level

00:45:24.420 of bravery and courage and you know going on there in order just to kind of get through it all but

00:45:29.720 but yeah the the information is very very sketchy and she didn't leave anything I think she was

00:45:37.560 I think she was illiterate in terms of being able to write I don't know whether she could read but

00:45:43.640 But she couldn't write. 0.67

00:45:45.560 So there wasn't a possibility of leaving anything behind.

00:45:49.740 But yeah, I think what we do know about her is impressive, for sure.

00:45:55.280 And her story continues on, although she's most famous for the mutiny situation,

00:46:01.760 the time she spent among the Maori.

00:46:04.680 And then there were some legends that she went to Tonga or she went somewhere else,

00:46:09.540 but you found that she returned and married someone.

00:46:13.640 Yes. So this is where what I wrote about and what you would tend to read in a New Zealand history book, this is where it kind of diverges because this legend grows up that she stays in New Zealand.

00:46:30.660 She doesn't leave after six or eight months or so and go back and return to Sydney.

00:46:37.500 The story is that she stays in New Zealand, she marries a high-ranking chief and eventually in, I think it's about 18, around 1820, she's supposed to have left New Zealand and potentially ended up in Tonga, is spotted in Tonga by an American whaling ship in 1826 and then maybe makes her way to America.

00:47:04.400 And actually none of that happened.

00:47:07.700 She did get picked up by the indispensable

00:47:10.300 and then taken to Norfolk Island. 0.75

00:47:13.800 And then from Norfolk Island, she returns to Sydney.

00:47:17.300 And at this point, she's a person who's had quite an adventurous life so far,

00:47:20.940 but she is now a free woman.

00:47:23.440 She's no longer a convict.

00:47:25.600 She gets married and she kind of, for her, I think probably it's a bit of a relief.

00:47:31.560 she can now just live a quieter life. Yeah. So she gets back to Sydney in 1807,

00:47:39.120 not sure what happens for the next three or four years, but in 1811, she marries a soldier

00:47:45.960 who's a bit older than her and his name's Thomas Humphreys. And he is posted to various

00:47:54.060 parts

00:47:55.260 on the outskirts of Sydney

00:47:57.380 if anybody knows Sydney

00:47:59.900 Parramatta is now

00:48:01.800 kind of reasonably

00:48:03.060 in a city but at the time

00:48:06.380 it was

00:48:07.540 on the outskirts

00:48:09.800 it was a frontier settlement really

00:48:12.140 and

00:48:13.960 they spent a lot of time in Parramatta

00:48:15.620 and a place called Windsor

00:48:17.840 he's part of a garrison

00:48:19.720 that is protecting

00:48:22.040 Sydney from

00:48:23.200 what is basically becoming a war between the colonial government and Aboriginal people

00:48:32.720 as the settlement spreads out across the plain.

00:48:36.240 So they kind of become indirectly involved in this kind of war of conquest.

00:48:44.220 Well, especially, I mean, as the wife of this military person, she would, I guess I said,

00:48:49.200 her life gets quieter but i guess i mean she's no longer being forced onto boats into unfamiliar

00:48:55.680 places she's yeah it's it's much it's much more domestic even if it's still there's a level of

00:49:03.660 danger to it and she's got a partner now she's got a husband it's not just her figuring things

00:49:09.320 out on her own and he's he's situated high enough in society that that would have some

00:49:15.140 Some level of security for her, I would think.

00:49:17.940 Yeah, he leaves the army.

00:49:20.300 He retires in 1822.

00:49:23.620 I think his battalion is disestablished.

00:49:28.360 And he's offered a piece of land.

00:49:30.820 So they have the opportunity to become farmers, smallholders.

00:49:36.860 And I don't think that ever really comes about for whatever reason.

00:49:42.260 His application kind of gets lost or whatever.

00:49:45.140 So they end up living in Windsor, which is, at the time, a frontier town.

00:49:53.680 But they seem, they kind of disappear from the record for quite a long time.

00:49:57.660 So I think they're just, yeah, they're just living a kind of settled, you know, pretty

00:50:03.400 normal domestic life, which, yeah, for her is probably the longest period of settlement

00:50:13.640 that she's had.

00:50:15.140 Well, and it seems in a way, her life, there were all these adventures in the middle, but at this point, I think it's turned out a bit better than it probably would have staying back in England as this poor person.

00:50:28.580 Yeah, well, I think this is one of the things that you find when you look at convicts and one of the questions that's asked is, well, yeah, you know, they got chucked out of their home country.

00:50:42.920 But actually, in the end, was it better for them?

00:50:46.620 Did they benefit?

00:50:48.020 And certainly some people did.

00:50:49.520 I mean, there are some convicts who become very wealthy people.

00:50:55.320 They serve their sentence.

00:51:00.020 They're freed.

00:51:01.260 And then they kind of get in on the whaling and sealing game, or they become landholders.

00:51:07.560 They kind of build up land holdings.

00:51:11.720 And Thomas and Charlotte didn't get that far.

00:51:14.840 But yeah, I think you can certainly mount an argument that her life may very well have

00:51:20.520 turned out better in Australia than it would have if she'd stayed in Bromsgrove.

00:51:24.960 Was it during her lifetime that the myth started being built about her and the mutiny?

00:51:30.400 Or was it later?

00:51:31.760 It was later.

00:51:33.260 So it was, we don't know when she died.

00:51:35.960 There's absolutely no record of her death.

00:51:39.120 But in the 1890s, the myth about her starts to grow.

00:51:46.640 So there's a writer of tall tales called Louis Beck, who he's kind of the first one that I could find who took the account that Samuel Rodman Chase had left behind of what went on on the Venus when it was stolen.

00:52:05.840 and he takes that story and he kind of

00:52:08.140 embellishes it. So

00:52:09.880 Rodman Chase doesn't mention Charlotte Badger

00:52:11.960 at all. He does mention

00:52:13.400 Catherine Haggerty, but he doesn't mention

00:52:16.080 Charlotte Badger at all.

00:52:18.200 But Louis Beck does, and he

00:52:19.960 kind of has the two 0.98

00:52:21.900 women taking an equal part 1.00

00:52:23.660 in the mutiny.

00:52:25.620 It's being led by Benjamin Kelly, but

00:52:27.780 they're definitely

00:52:29.260 active participants

00:52:31.020 in the taking of the ship.

00:52:34.320 So that's kind of

00:52:35.840 where it starts. And he's, I think he's the one who suggests that she may have gone to Tonga

00:52:42.100 as well. So he's kind of the guy who starts building this myth about her

00:52:50.400 and what might've happened to her, you know, when she comes to New Zealand and, and afterwards.

00:52:57.940 So during her life then, she wouldn't have been living with any love of notoriety necessarily.

00:53:03.060 No, she's a complete unknown, really. And one of the questions I had was, well, when she gets back to Sydney, you know, why isn't she charged with mutiny? Because, you know, they know she's listed in this public notice when the Venus is taken.

00:53:24.160 and yet when she gets to Norfolk Island

00:53:27.660 and when she gets back to Sydney

00:53:30.260 the authorities don't try and charge her

00:53:33.080 with escaping

00:53:35.760 because escape from the colony wasn't unusual

00:53:40.080 and it would be punished

00:53:42.220 and yet they didn't pursue her

00:53:45.500 and I kind of wonder whether they decided

00:53:48.060 well she's just this poor woman and she got carried away

00:53:51.420 and it was the men who led the mutiny

00:53:53.560 So we'll just kind of let her off.

00:53:57.120 So, yeah, she slips back into Sydney society and she disappears, really.

00:54:03.140 She is, for the rest of her life, she's just a communal garden, you know, released convict. 0.59

00:54:12.640 And I guess being in a place where so much of the European population there are former convicts,

00:54:20.180 there's maybe not the same stigma there would be having that status back in England.

00:54:24.860 Yeah, I think most of the people there would be former convicts. So yes, if you're going to be

00:54:31.680 a former convict, then you're probably better off staying in New South Wales, surrounded by people

00:54:36.180 just like you, and with, like we say, with the opportunity to kind of make a life of your own

00:54:43.140 there and then she does like she lives seemingly decades there's no records so presumably

00:54:49.680 there's nothing too out of the ordinary happening to her but then when she's in her 60s

00:54:55.580 she's suddenly charged with another theft is it theft again yes it's really strange it's and i

00:55:02.000 think again it's really hard to know why but it seems to me like it's one of those things where

00:55:08.940 It's a relationship that's gone wrong.

00:55:12.600 And yeah, I think it's a neighbor potentially charges her with stealing something.

00:55:18.440 She's found not guilty of that.

00:55:20.760 So that's the good news.

00:55:22.880 But yeah, it's really odd that decades really go by.

00:55:26.400 And then all of a sudden there's this black mark on her record again.

00:55:32.640 Yeah.

00:55:33.380 It's another one of those things.

00:55:34.760 It's just everything about her story is just so intriguing.

00:55:37.680 just these details we have and so for me i'm just trying to fill in the blanks like what could have

00:55:42.820 happened was she secretly a criminal this whole time or did somebody find out she had this record

00:55:48.700 and so that's why they charged i don't know there's so many so many reasons why that could

00:55:54.260 have happened yeah i mean i kind of i sort of wonder well in order to survive the kind of life

00:56:00.220 she had did she have to be feisty did she have to be you know did there have to be a kind of 0.80

00:56:06.280 underlying level of you know bolshiness about her and did it eventually just come out in various

00:56:14.500 ways because i i'm not sure that you could be kind of meek and entirely kind of submissive and and 0.99

00:56:23.060 and you know and live the kind of life she had and survive it really so maybe she just she was 1.00

00:56:30.580 a bit feisty and occasionally that went wrong, you know, in her dealings with other people. 0.92

00:56:37.900 Yeah, it's again, it's, it's, it's impossible to tell. It's frustrating that you can't, you can't

00:56:43.840 tell. And I think that's, I think that's such a good point that her, her personality, just based

00:56:49.320 on the things that happened to her and the things that she did, you can't but come away with a sense

00:56:55.920 of this feisty person, this very strong-willed person that otherwise this whole life, the

00:57:02.300 sequence of events doesn't make sense.

00:57:04.360 Yeah, absolutely.

00:57:05.420 I mean, I think breaking into someone's house when you're 18, you know, you only, I think

00:57:10.740 you only do that if there's something about you that is willing to kind of, you know,

00:57:17.700 break the norms of society and be a bit feisty.

00:57:23.260 And maybe that, you know, in some ways that did just stick with her her whole life for, you know, for good and for bad.

00:57:30.960 And what is her role nowadays in terms of New Zealand history?

00:57:35.220 Yeah, she's often written about as one of the first white or Pākehā women to come to New Zealand.

00:57:44.000 That's kind of become her status.

00:57:46.760 But she makes kind of a very fleeting appearance.

00:57:51.160 So if people have written General Histories of New Zealand, if they're writing about the early contact period, the pre-colonial period, they'll kind of talk about her as an early emissary, or there's a term that we use here, Pākehā Māori, and you get these sorts of people, I'm sure you have them in Canada as well, where they're white people who make really early contact with native populations.

00:58:21.160 indigenous populations, and they kind of live with those communities

00:58:24.260 and they become emissaries and contact points between, you know,

00:58:33.480 white traders and indigenous people.

00:58:37.220 And she's kind of talked about in those terms as being one of these

00:58:40.800 Pākehā Māori.

00:58:42.000 I'm not actually sure that she really did fulfil that role.

00:58:45.580 But, yeah, that's kind of how she's talked about as being an early

00:58:49.540 cultural emissary and, and one of the very first white women to, to come here.

00:58:56.340 And her status, do you think she's more, not that she, she's not super well-known in general

00:59:02.960 is my impression. Um, I was asking, I have a, when I started researching this, I just

00:59:09.320 asked my listeners, is anyone in New Zealand? I just, I just want to understand this a bit

00:59:12.560 better. And my New Zealand emissary ambassador had never heard of her. So I'm just guessing,

00:59:20.660 I don't know how, but where she's better known, it's probably more New Zealand than Australia.

00:59:26.960 Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. She doesn't, she doesn't really have any kind of status in Australia,

00:59:32.180 which is sort of odd because the two, the two places that really beefed up the, the,

00:59:38.360 the Charlotte Badger myth about, you know, living in New Zealand

00:59:42.400 for a long time, going to, you know, Tonga, being the pirate,

00:59:46.320 being the woman who led the mutiny.

00:59:49.940 So Louis Beck, he was Australian.

00:59:52.580 And then the Sydney Morning Herald in the 1930s,

00:59:55.740 it writes this incredible story about how she was the mutiny leader.

01:00:01.560 So the myth itself about her kind of formed mostly in Australia.

01:00:06.100 and yet she really only appears in New Zealand history books and it's again it's because

01:00:12.980 she was you know supposed to be one of the very first um Pākehā people to kind of to live here

01:00:20.860 I had messaged you I think when we were planning this discussion I have this scale

01:00:27.100 where I all the women who we talk about on the podcast I give them scores out of 10

01:00:31.800 in four different categories and so I and I never know what these numbers going to be especially

01:00:37.680 when I was someone like you who's an expert in this topic but so the first category and these

01:00:43.280 are all from zero to ten how scandalous do you think she is or was and that's within the context

01:00:50.500 of her lifetime yeah of her lifetime yeah that's a good one I mean I think she has yeah 0.95

01:00:59.240 She has two really scandalous periods 1.00

01:01:05.100 One is where she does actually break into the house and steal the money

01:01:08.540 And the other is where she does take part in that mutiny

01:01:12.180 Even if she's not an active participant

01:01:14.420 She's on board a ship that takes part in the mutiny

01:01:19.140 But then she has long periods of domestic boredom 0.94

01:01:22.920 So I would probably give her a six 0.80

01:01:27.360 Because the scandal of the pirate and all that, that came later,

01:01:31.000 and that's not really her.

01:01:33.000 Yeah, it's not really her. 0.90

01:01:34.500 Although, yeah, she didn't lead the mutiny, but she definitely, 0.71

01:01:40.580 she was on board and she probably had the opportunity to get off, 1.00

01:01:44.160 and she didn't.

01:01:46.440 Proximity to mutiny, I think, is inherently.

01:01:49.600 Proximity to mutiny, yeah.

01:01:50.980 and deciding not to get off the boat

01:01:55.240 because a couple of the crew members

01:01:57.300 got thrown off the boat

01:01:59.500 and sent back to shore

01:02:01.180 and I think maybe she'd said

01:02:02.920 I don't really want to be part of this

01:02:04.300 she might have had the option to go with them

01:02:07.180 and she didn't

01:02:07.960 so yeah

01:02:10.100 definitely yeah 1.00

01:02:11.600 she's not without scandal in her life 1.00

01:02:14.820 she's not without scandal 1.00

01:02:16.360 the next category I call scheminess

01:02:18.640 and that's just being a person with a plan

01:02:20.700 I mean, she had the scheme to break into the house, not a good scheme, clearly.

01:02:24.040 But that also speaks to just resiliency and flexibility and being able to get through

01:02:31.480 an unusual and unexpected circumstances.

01:02:34.000 And I think she had that.

01:02:36.360 She definitely had that.

01:02:37.200 I give her an eight on that one. 0.98

01:02:39.800 Yeah.

01:02:40.020 I mean, she's thrown into completely unfamiliar situations all in a row, and she came out

01:02:48.000 of all of them.

01:02:49.340 Yeah.

01:02:49.680 I mean, every phase of her life really has a series of pretty extraordinary challenges.

01:02:56.860 Even the boring domestic part, you know, she's still living on a frontier, you know, in Australia. 0.66

01:03:04.960 It's a harsh environment and it's an environment that for, you know, white settlers is, yeah, it's a frontier really.

01:03:14.080 So she's living in a series of kind of new and challenging environments.

01:03:19.680 And I think, too, I'm just thinking, I mean, I know much better the history of settlers in Canada or in the United States, but that's a lot of people who came here on purpose, who chose a life of adventure.

01:03:33.540 She didn't, she never chose this.

01:03:35.860 She just kind of was put there.

01:03:38.540 She kind of, yeah.

01:03:40.020 I mean, I guess you could maybe argue that she, you know, breaking into the house, she's sort of choosing a path.

01:03:45.740 But, you know, she didn't think that that was, nobody commits a crime thinking they're going to get caught, do they?

01:03:51.500 So, yeah, it's a series of things that kind of happened to her.

01:03:55.440 And it just so happened, her constitution, her personality actually was very well suited to this.

01:04:02.920 Yeah, potentially.

01:04:04.180 I think in order to get through it all, yeah, you definitely have to be flexible, you know, and resilient, I think.

01:04:10.720 I think that's the word that I kept thinking about in relation to her.

01:04:13.940 she must have been an extremely resilient person absolutely and even talking about the children she

01:04:18.380 had and the children who died like that requires enormous resiliency yeah absolutely yeah so the

01:04:25.640 next category is her significance and so i would say specifically her significance like as to new

01:04:33.520 zealand history to australian history i think and this is an interesting one to consider because

01:04:39.760 part of what I really appreciated about your book was to take a person who there's not a lot of

01:04:44.480 biographies of a criminal woman from this period in English history, but just because her life

01:04:51.820 became so extraordinary, there are these records. So to me, I find her significance almost

01:04:57.080 representing a class of people who we never hear about. Yes. And I think, yeah, to an extent,

01:05:03.740 That's why she was added to the Dictionary of New Zealand biography, partly because she is this early cultural representative, but also because she represents a class of women who comes later, and that's the single working class woman.

01:05:23.860 And yeah, she is an early example of those single women who chose to get on a boat and come to the other side of the world, often to be domestic servants, because that represented a better option than staying in Britain.

01:05:44.660 And, yeah, I think you can see her as, even though she didn't come by choice,

01:05:48.020 she was forced, you can sort of see that, yeah,

01:05:51.480 she's an early representative of that independent, young independent woman.

01:05:56.840 So on a scale of zero to ten, where would you put her for significance?

01:06:01.320 For significance.

01:06:02.560 I mean, I probably would overstate her significance, but, you know.

01:06:07.500 You're the guest.

01:06:08.180 I would say that, I guess.

01:06:09.280 Yeah. Again, I think I'd probably, I would probably go for like a seven, I think, for around, around there. Because, yeah, like, like, like you say, she does, she does represent a class of working class women who did, you know, who did come in, in numbers and contributed to the, to the country. So, yeah.

01:06:32.300 She's in the dictionary of New Zealand biography, you said. So, yeah.

01:06:36.740 She is. Yeah, she is. She is indeed.

01:06:38.700 Which I'm sure she would never have imagined.

01:06:41.760 No, I mean, that's the thing, you know, that she's this, on one hand, she's incredibly obscure, you know, she's born at the very bottom of society, she's illiterate, she's, you know, lives this obscure life, and yet she's in the New Zealand, you know, the Dictionary of New Zealand biography, because on one hand, she's not obscure, she lives this incredible life, so there's a real sort of dichotomy about her.

01:07:06.240 so the final category is um i call it the sexism bonus where it's just how much did sexism hold

01:07:14.620 her back and it's a way to give people more points and i don't know i think if a man had

01:07:18.700 broken into a house maybe he would have been put to death or maybe he would have been also

01:07:22.100 sent to australia i don't know how much her gender yeah that's a that is a good one because 1.00

01:07:27.740 it's almost like the opposite because if because the sexism thing should have worked in her favor 1.00

01:07:35.740 So if she had had a male accomplice, she would have been excused. 1.00

01:07:41.120 And women were often, you know, in the justice system, it was like, oh, well, you know, we have to make excuses for her because she's been led astray.

01:07:51.920 So it's almost like she, yeah, she kind of didn't benefit from sexism in a way.

01:07:59.100 and then in her just in her life i don't know like i would think i'm sure it was very scary

01:08:04.740 being on the the original convict ship being surrounded by men she had children we don't

01:08:10.080 know the circumstances of their conception but again i don't see i don't see sexism necessarily

01:08:17.360 being a major force working against her in her story no and i and i think as i say in a way

01:08:24.180 You know, I sort of wonder if one of the men who'd been on board the Venus made it back to Sydney, would he have been charged with being an escaped convict?

01:08:34.580 And maybe he would have.

01:08:36.300 And maybe she wasn't because she was just the poor little woman who'd been led astray.

01:08:41.540 So maybe there's an extent to which the sexism of the time helped her to kind of, you know, in that scenario, maybe it kind of worked in her favor.

01:08:53.960 And even when she's choosing to stay among the Maori, I don't know, being a woman, if she was treated in a certain way that was positive or negative versus if a man had stayed. 0.56

01:09:06.680 Yeah, there's one account that says that she and Catherine Haggerty, when they're at the bay, they're subject to tapu.

01:09:14.920 And tapu is like a sense of sacred protection which a chief can bestow.

01:09:21.280 and and so yeah they were kind of living under the tapu of the chief so that yeah if that was

01:09:28.500 correct then that yeah they were definitely being protected and i i think there's a high chance that

01:09:35.360 their gender um was part of the reason for that this is so interesting yeah it's it's not often

01:09:41.740 on my podcast that sexism really is yeah it's not a it's not a corrosive force i would say

01:09:50.160 I'd give her like a one or a two, just because I'm sure.

01:09:53.720 Possibly I'd give her a two because it's going to be there, isn't it?

01:09:56.320 So we got to acknowledge its existence.

01:09:59.220 Yeah.

01:09:59.620 Let me just see.

01:10:00.320 So her total score is a 23 out of 40,

01:10:06.160 which I'm just trying to see if there's anyone who is well-known enough,

01:10:11.760 you might've heard of them, who also got a 23.

01:10:14.900 There's not.

01:10:15.360 there's people there's people who said 23 but i i doubt they're not super famous people but

01:10:22.180 actually i don't know if you've heard of her um mary toft was an english woman from around this

01:10:27.240 period no a bit earlier but she allegedly gave birth to rabbits and then it turns out she's just 0.93

01:10:33.340 being used by various people to try she was also a poor woman who we would never have known about 0.99

01:10:39.600 except this weird thing happened to her. And she has a 20. So I think this is a place where people 0.99

01:10:45.620 who are significant in representing a class of people, that's kind of where they fall on the

01:10:51.520 scale. But thank you so much for joining me to talk about this story. It's so, I'm really grateful

01:10:57.520 for you for taking the time. And I'm also grateful for all the investigative work you did in putting

01:11:02.200 together this biography of going into, I think you said in the book, like different archives to

01:11:08.400 find what was she charged with and what was her sentence and all these

01:11:11.500 details.

01:11:13.000 Yeah.

01:11:13.320 I mean,

01:11:13.560 that's part of the fun though.

01:11:14.720 That's,

01:11:15.140 you know, 1.00

01:11:15.300 that's the fun part is tracking someone down like her.

01:11:18.740 It's kind of like,

01:11:19.560 it is like doing detective work,

01:11:21.620 but without the,

01:11:23.500 you know,

01:11:24.120 without some of the downsides of having to be a detective.

01:11:26.720 And yeah,

01:11:27.620 so it's,

01:11:28.280 you know,

01:11:28.480 I,

01:11:28.640 I enjoy it immensely.

01:11:30.600 And,

01:11:31.100 and I was just glad in the end that I was able to kind of give some sort of

01:11:35.880 shape to her life.

01:11:36.880 Cause,

01:11:37.420 um,

01:11:38.400 I think, yeah, she was a remarkable person, and I wonder how she'd feel about all the attention that she's received from various quarters, having started off so low down in society, but having lived this amazing life.

01:11:56.040 I think it's great that she's getting the attention that she deserves.

01:12:01.820 Absolutely, and thank you for helping giving her more attention by coming on my podcast.

01:12:07.940 Oh, thanks very much for having me.

01:12:09.180 It's been really fun.

01:12:17.800 So because this is the Marie Antoinette season in a kind of Trojan horse way, where it's

01:12:24.380 like you see a giant statue of Marie Antoinette and they open it up and inside are a bunch

01:12:28.480 of like increasingly obscure, like poverty stricken women from around the world.

01:12:33.020 um but i am connecting everyone this series is going to connect back somehow to

01:12:38.640 marie antoinette and you might be like well how is charlotte badger going to guess what she does

01:12:43.440 so when she was eventually when she left new zealand the person who came to uh i don't know

01:12:51.360 if it's a rescue is the right word because she was doing okay but the guy who she left with on

01:12:55.680 a ship was lieutenant john putland lieutenant john putland had served under a guy called horatio

01:13:01.180 Nelson when he was in the army. Honestly, a lot of the connections this series, and it's really

01:13:06.580 telling to how the world was interacting at this time, are through these military type people.

01:13:11.880 Horatio Nelson had spent some time in Naples, where he hung out with King Ferdinand IV,

01:13:16.520 King of the Romans, whose wife, Maria Caroline of Austria, was the sister of Marie Antoinette.

01:13:23.500 So from Charlotte to Putland to Nelson to King Ferdinand to Maria Caroline to Marie Antoinette

01:13:29.260 is five degrees of separation or four degrees if you think like he Nelson probably hung out with

01:13:34.520 Maria Caroline directly so let's say four let's say four degrees of separation and again the book

01:13:40.220 that Jennifer wrote is Thief Convict Pirate Wife the Many Histories of Charlotte Badger so if you

01:13:45.840 want to learn more about this whole story it's it's such a good readable great book I recommend

01:13:52.440 responded heartily. And this is Vulgar History. And my name is Anne Foster. I have other ways if

01:14:00.300 you want to keep up with me and this podcast, if we just can't get enough. I do know that,

01:14:05.320 or I suspect that because we just started this new season, there's probably some new listeners.

01:14:10.140 And there might be, you might feel like the archive of old episodes is overwhelming. There's

01:14:14.140 like 200 episodes or something. One episode that directly relates to this one, if you want to scroll

01:14:20.820 back you can find i did an episode about uh an aboriginal australian woman named marianne bug

01:14:26.480 and that delves more into bush ranging which are some of my favorite people from australian history

01:14:33.140 they're sort of like australia's version of highwaymen or cowboys um but marianne bug her

01:14:38.840 story is really interesting and it gets more into the history of australia and also interesting of

01:14:43.700 New Zealand because later in her life, Marianne Bug claimed to be of Maori descent just because

01:14:51.000 of Australia had been, was in being colonized by the British, but New Zealand wasn't yet.

01:14:56.620 And so Maori people had more rights. And so it was actually, it seems like a thing that a lot

01:15:01.220 of Aboriginal Australian people did was to say like, oh no, I'm actually Maori. And then you'd

01:15:04.360 be treated better. Anyway. So if you just scroll back to find my episode about Marianne Bug, that's

01:15:09.300 related content i would say i also you can keep up with me in various places i am on instagram

01:15:15.780 at vulgar history pod and that's where i post um for every episode just sort of like a little

01:15:21.640 some pictures to illustrate what we're talking about and also that's where you can get in touch

01:15:26.140 with me sending me messages there i also have a patreon um and the patreon is another way that

01:15:31.760 people are able to interact with me um and to chat about the episodes if you join the patreon

01:15:37.980 which you can join for free um i have some free content that's available there as well

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01:18:32.440 well by sending me a message. I also have a brand partner who is Common Era Jewelry, which is a

01:18:38.880 small woman-owned business that makes jewelry inspired by women from classical mythology as

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01:18:56.260 people you can get on their pieces they have sappho is there medusa i have that necklace

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01:19:37.340 is vulgarhistory.com, there's a form there where you can get in touch with me there too.

01:19:42.060 And so just as a teaser for next week, there's going to be another new episode next week.

01:19:46.560 we're getting into June, which is pride month in a lot of countries. And so we're going to be

01:19:50.700 having a story from queer history. It's also a story from trans history. And it's also a story

01:19:57.420 from American history. I know there's a lot of American listeners who, you know what, sometimes

01:20:03.120 have been like, oh, you should do a story from American history. And I'm like, be careful what

01:20:06.980 you wish for, because we're going to get into a bunch of American history stuff. And that starts

01:20:11.920 next week. Actually, next week is not a be careful what you wish for. Next week is like a

01:20:17.640 delightful story of American history. Coming up in a bit though, I'm going to be getting into some

01:20:23.160 founding fathers stuff. And I hope you're cool with me talking about those guys because they're

01:20:29.060 not as cute as Warren Hamilton when you actually read the history. Anyway, thank you for listening

01:20:33.860 to Vulgar History. And until next time, keep your pants on and your tits out. 1.00

01:20:37.900 vulgar history is research written and hosted by ann foster that's me the editor is christina 0.99

01:20:45.300 lumagi theme music is by the severn duo the vulgar history show image is by deborah wong

01:20:51.620 transcripts are written by avilene malik find transcripts of recent episodes at vulgarhistory.com

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01:21:20.220 the paranormal mysteries of Liminal London,

01:21:24.240 and the cyberpunk chaos of Cyborg.

01:21:32.420 Fall in love with our core cast

01:21:35.200 or be awed by our incredible guests

01:21:38.200 from familiar shows like Oxventure,

01:21:41.520 Three Black Halflings,

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01:21:46.560 Ignite your imagination

01:21:47.860 and discover the realms of peril and glory today.

01:21:51.800 Go to RealmsPod.com

01:21:53.800 or search Realms of Peril and Glory wherever you listen to podcasts.

01:22:02.920 You've watched them from the outside your whole life.

01:22:06.100 On TV, on stage, on the cover.

01:22:08.620 The success that always looks like it happened to someone on a different planet.

01:22:13.000 But what if it didn't?

01:22:14.680 I'm Evelyn and I've spent over 25 years in entertainment,

01:22:18.140 producing for some of the biggest names in Hollywood.

01:22:20.520 And here's what I learned.

01:22:21.460 The distance between you and them, it's a lot shorter than anyone's letting on.

01:22:26.700 On my podcast, Reppin', I sit down with the people you've been watching and I ask them

01:22:31.360 who they actually are, not the brand, the person, where they started, what it costs

01:22:37.180 them, what almost broke them, their grit, their courage, their resilience, and the lessons

01:22:43.320 they've learned.

01:22:44.200 It's all yours for the taking.

01:22:47.160 Reppin', wherever you listen.

01:22:48.660 oh please not that music that music gives me nightmares from my childhood could we get

01:22:55.460 something a little bit lighter some lighter music here are you a fan of true crime tv shows and what

01:23:01.520 about unsolved mysteries the show that jump-started all of our love of true crime i'm ellen marsh and

01:23:07.480 i'm joey taranto and we host i think not a true crime comedy podcast covering some of the wildest

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01:23:15.600 campy TV shows all the way to

01:23:17.880 Unsolved Mysteries. Baby, you

01:23:19.780 will laugh, you will cry, you'll think

01:23:21.760 about true crime in a whole new way, and

01:23:23.740 you'll also ask yourself, who gave these people

01:23:25.800 mics? New episodes of I Think Not

01:23:27.840 are released every Wednesday with bonus

01:23:29.800 episodes out every Thursday

01:23:31.520 on Patreon. And every Monday

01:23:33.820 you can listen to our True Crime

01:23:35.680 Rundown, where we go over the top

01:23:37.820 true crime headlines of the week.

01:23:39.980 So come and join us wherever you listen

01:23:41.900 to your podcasts.

01:23:43.780 We'll be right back.

Vulgar History - May 29, 2024

New Zealand Lady Pirate, Charlotte Badger

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