00:06:14.920So to Romans to see a woman leading an army,
00:06:17.940a woman having like the faith of her people,
00:06:20.260like that was just, you couldn't bother them more1.00
00:06:23.900than to raise an army with a woman at the head of it.
00:06:27.140And like these three were kind of like,
00:06:29.760we kind of know their names because they went up against Rome.
00:06:32.260And Rome was just like, what is happening? A woman leading an army? Like, that's just like doubly making them angry because Rome was such a patriarchal culture and these other places weren't necessarily.0.96
00:06:43.920Mm-hmm. And, you know, there are civilizations that existed where the matriarchy was in charge, but you don't hear a lot about those because, you know, to the victors go the spoils.0.98
00:06:58.540The people that conquered the most were the ones that were going to write the histories that ended up lasting.0.97
00:07:03.820So you don't hear about those as much. You only hear about the patriarchy.
00:07:06.980And Rome was probably the epitome of patriarchy when it came to any ancient civilization.
00:07:32.700So they kept women around for just one thing and one thing only.0.92
00:07:35.860otherwise they serve absolutely no purpose to men and that's sad because we're just so much smarter
00:07:41.840I mean cuter more fun um yeah I was just thinking too like the thing with Rome and the Roman Empire
00:07:51.040which lasted for such a long time part of part of why it's still thought of today is like oh wow
00:07:57.420the Roman Empire and we broke this down in a previous episode we did listeners listen to the
00:08:01.100one about women in the roman empire but they when they lost they wouldn't let anybody know that it0.71
00:08:06.700happened like rome just like really advertised when they did well but they had battles that
00:08:11.540they lost it's just like they just don't talk about it to make it sound and especially if they
00:08:15.460lost a battle against a woman exactly because that would just come to question the entire
00:08:20.680basis of their society like they don't know yeah and you know it's just it was always the
00:08:27.560the propaganda machine with them and in everything because you know if you think about it
00:08:35.260people didn't really they weren't in general people weren't privy to what actually was happening
00:08:41.240so all they could go by was what they were being told and if you were told Rome always won if you0.98
00:08:48.140were told women ain't shit if you were told that it was a man they were fighting against instead0.99
00:08:53.160a woman, if you were told all this stuff, how could you refute it? They had no way of knowing,1.00
00:08:58.120just like we talked about when we were talking about Nefertiti, I believe. The general populace
00:09:03.120had no idea what the royal family looked like. They didn't have social media back then. They
00:09:09.460weren't posting like, hey, here I am. We're going to have a royal bash tonight. It wasn't like that.
00:09:14.720So the people that were tending the farms out, they had no idea what the royal family looked
00:09:19.940like. When it came to Rome, you could announce whatever you wanted on the steps of the Senate,
00:09:25.600and people only had that to go by. Now, I have to believe, and this is just me speculating because
00:09:33.220this is how I would look at it, I have to believe there were plenty of women that called BS on a
00:09:39.640regular on what they were being told because they were somewhat privy to what was actually happening.0.99
00:09:45.320so they would hear their husbands having conversations with other senators other
00:09:49.760men of affluence in in the the city so they would kind of have an idea of yeah this isn't quite going
00:09:56.040as good as they're telling the people it is but it's say anything because they're like you know
00:10:00.340what ain't got nothing to do with me i'm i got the household to take care of i've got a party to plan
00:10:04.980so but i i really truly believe there were plenty of women that would listen to what was being told
00:10:10.140and be like yeah I know that ain't it but what could they do well and this is the thing too about
00:10:15.900how the records come down and we're like listeners we're talking about Rome a lot because that's
00:10:20.100that's who's an obvious goes up against in the story but I think also like today we're looking
00:10:24.080at the records that Rome puts out like the records that were kept at that time and how their stories
00:10:28.860and their legends were told but you're exactly right because like at the time they would be
00:10:34.020telling people like oh we're doing amazing with these amazing military victories Rome is so great
00:10:37.900i'm sure there are people in that time being like are they like you were saying but then now like
00:10:44.640for the last whatever thousands of years like we have these records that are like rome is great
00:10:47.880we're always victors like all we have are these records these like pr records so then you just
00:10:53.240think like wow everyone back then must have believed them like no of course not like people
00:10:57.420today don't believe headlines like we have eyes like we know that like groceries are expensive we
00:11:02.460know that like gas prices are going up it's like you can tell us that it's the best economy ever
00:11:06.880but like it's clearly not yeah my paycheck ain't saying it's the best so you know and it's just1.00
00:11:13.840like you know i'm pretty sure there are probably plenty of the plebs that were like we know this
00:11:18.820isn't happening because i talked to so-and-so who's a trader with so-and-so and they told me
00:11:23.940what was really happening where they got the goods that they just brought to rome and so i know what
00:11:28.960they're saying up on the steps of the senate is some bullshit because i was told by this person0.87
00:11:33.740that knows this person that saw this person, that it's not going like that. So you know there0.97
00:11:38.520were people that knew the truth, but again, how could they refute it? Because it was just word
00:11:43.060of mouth to a lot of the people that knew the truth. They weren't there. And how do you go up
00:11:47.660against the Senate? You can't. So they just kept their mouths shut, kept their heads down, and just
00:11:52.760did what they had to do to survive. And it's sad that maybe some of the things they might have
00:11:58.920written didn't survive because you know like in egypt they find a little bit of graffiti and
00:12:04.420scribblings here and there love the graffiti and you find a little bit of it in rome too
00:12:10.140where they found it where brothels were and whatnot so it's really unfortunate some of
00:12:14.580these other plebeians didn't have stuff that survived that really told a true picture of
00:12:19.280what life was really like instead of what cicero wrote about the grand empire of rome you know so
00:12:26.140i just want to say like send it like again like you like rome is like your thing like you've been
00:12:32.700this for so long but i will say sometimes people ask me like what got you interested in history
00:12:37.100and i always say pompey when i was like six or seven years old i had this like children's book
00:12:41.480about pompey and i was obsessed with it i would like take my dolls and act out pompey and like
00:12:47.340what do my parents get my parents and to be like hey watch this production i've made this product
00:12:50.900and i would like act out the book because i just found so fascinating that the whole city was just
00:12:55.600struck down in the middle of a day and what you can learn about what the everyday people were up
00:13:00.520to because of it was all just crystallized and lava and I think that's always been my interest
00:13:05.620in history is is exactly that just like what was it like for real people and I love in Pompeii like
00:13:10.240they're still excavating stuff and like they're finding these brothels like people scratch the
00:13:14.120walls just like you know Claudius ain't shit like people just like you know like people writing0.86
00:13:18.800exactly exactly what they are right now I'm just like this was just people and I love that instead0.90
00:13:23.320of like oh the great and grand roman empire so like from age six like i've just been like oh
00:13:28.820yeah rome that was just kind of like it was just like everybody it was just normal people
00:13:32.800and i love that it's just um at another point in time in life we'll get into other aspects of rome
00:13:40.700that weren't quite as glorious and grand as they'd like to to say and it's not just with
00:13:46.880Rome, it's with Greece, it's with Sparta, it's with all of them that, you know, whoever won the
00:13:53.600most, whoever felt like they were the strongest, who was ever most empowered, that's what exists
00:13:58.840for us to look at today. Everything else is kind of just speculation on some random ass stuff that
00:14:04.220we might have found here and there. I prefer to pay more attention to the random stuff because
00:14:09.100I think that gives a better tale. It's not sugar-coated. It's not, oh, look at me, I'm so
00:14:15.260perfect i i like that random stuff but it's just so few and far between that you find that stuff
00:14:20.020that kind of have to just come up with your own ideas well and this is where well in terms of
00:14:25.540just what you were just saying like piecing together the random stuff because that's a lot
00:14:28.860of what the research on xenobia is like there's not as much specific information about her as there
00:14:33.800is about cleopatra for instance but also what you were saying before about you know like the
00:14:38.720the senators might come out and now it's like rome is doing great our economy is so good and
00:14:42.740everyone's at home being like is it but at this point so like zenobia she's born probably around
00:14:48.820something like 240 common era so this is like the roman empire has been there for a minute it's like
00:14:54.200been there for it's spread so wide so if you're talking about like the senators say this in rome
00:14:59.040like are they going to hear that on the far edges of like their spreads this is the point where
00:15:04.860like i think my understanding of the fall of the roman empire which is not great but what i know is
00:15:10.880they just spread themselves too thin they couldn't stand top of things when they're like going into
00:15:15.840like western europe they're going over into like eastern places like they're getting into like
00:15:21.120around the mediterranean like it's just it's too much you can't stand top of it and you can't your
00:15:26.160messaging which is like what you were saying like if they're announcing this at the senate they're
00:15:29.440like okay send this to it takes weeks or months maybe to get to these other places to be like we
00:15:33.980had a great victory it's like that was six months ago who cares like you can't exactly
00:15:39.520You're in charge of everything when you're that spread out. And that's part of how Zenobia's story comes up. This is not like Rome at its height of excellence. This is Rome where it's spread thin.
00:15:49.800Because even though, obviously, 240 Common Era is like years ago, it's still the third century.
00:16:03.240So if you really think about it and you look at when the Roman Empire really did start falling, she's kind of right in the smack dab in the middle of when they really started to sort of fall apart.
00:16:19.100And so I'm not saying that necessarily made it any easier for her because clearly it didn't, but it definitely took some of the difficulty away because Rome just wasn't at his height at that time.
00:16:32.640Well, and if you're comparing her to the woman who she claims to have been her ancestor, Cleopatra, like Cleopatra's story is happening.
00:16:39.080Well, now I forget. But when is that? Because that's not like...
00:16:42.420Wasn't Julius Caesar killed, what was it, 44 BC?
00:16:47.200yeah so like around 30 so this is like 30 bc so this is like 200 240 like 240 it's like 300 years
00:16:57.260after cleopatra so when i'm thinking about like the roman empire that i think about like i claudius
00:17:02.320my favorite tv show um or when you think about like i claudius like that's around the year
00:17:07.16030 um ce i know because like jesus kind of shows up sort of but when i think about the roman empire
00:17:14.520i'm thinking about that kind of like zero like from like 50 bc to like 50 ce is kind of the time
00:17:19.540period this is 200 years later like that's the distant history like that's for us what that's
00:17:26.300like the 1800s like it's a long time ago yes and and that's the thing that yes they did start
00:17:33.640spreading themselves thin but also there were the the people that they were fighting against
00:17:39.920people they considered to be barbarians people that weren't barbarians they finally were like
00:17:44.100you know what it's been this many years we're done with you we're we're not gonna just sit
00:17:52.020back and act like we're scared of you anymore you know people started really fighting back
00:17:58.080which kind of ties into xenobia but it just once people realized that they just weren't the might
00:18:04.040that they used to be they started fighting back they had all their little infighting going on
00:18:09.200in rome and they there was no way they were gonna last they just weren't and this is where i think
00:18:15.300it's like if we can talk now about xenobia we'll talk in a bit about like who she was and where
00:18:20.160she's born and stuff but like she claimed to be a descendant of cleopatra and that was partially
00:18:24.080because in palmyra where she is modern-day syria they cleopatra was seen as a hero because she
00:18:31.960stood up against the romans so during cleopatra's time and like listen back to our episode where we
00:18:36.480talk about Cleopatra but like the Romans hated her they like they wrote about her as being this
00:18:42.080like overly sexual like horrible villain like all the records of Cleopatra were just saying like she0.96
00:18:48.760like all she did was have sex with people and she was so trashy even though as we talked about in0.98
00:18:52.980that episode Cleopatra was so educated and such a good politician and such a good leader but it's1.00
00:18:58.980interesting that Rome was like Cleopatra was awful and then Zenobia is like actually she was
00:19:02.520Like, she's so not beloved, but just respected and admired that she's like, if I claim that I'm descended from her, that'll make people respect me more.
00:19:10.360So outside of Rome, what Cleopatra's legend is like is so interesting to me because she was so vilified within Rome itself.
00:19:17.340Yeah. And I believe I read that, you know, there have been numerous plays written about her. There have been numerous movies and TV shows done about her that all done in the general area of where she was from that just clearly shows that she was not forgotten by her people in the surrounding areas.
00:19:40.440she was important to them Cleopatra was important to them yeah she was kind of viewed as kind of a
00:19:47.480interloper because you know she was a Ptolemy she wasn't a full-blood Egyptian but still she was
00:19:54.400their queen and they had a certain level of respect for her it was the same with Zenobia is
00:20:00.040she she'll never be forgotten they'll keep her name going because she was just that important
00:20:05.520to them. And what she attempted, what she accomplished was important to them. And so
00:20:11.480it really does depend on the area that a person is from on how they're going to be remembered.
00:20:21.800You know, she was known by a number of different names, a Greek version, an Arabic version,
00:20:27.720an Italian version. She was known in many different ways, but ultimately Zenobia kind of
00:20:34.600flowed through on all of those interpretations of what her name could have been or how she would
00:20:41.400have referred to herself. And so if you look at her lineage, Zenobia goes back further than just
00:20:48.660her name. That's kind of like a name within the family a few generations back. So, I mean,
00:20:56.600how are they not going to latch onto that? How are they not going to uplift that? Because
00:21:00.360that is their history and they're proud of it yeah i think from what i've understand just from
00:21:06.260what i'm reading like senobia herself it's um like in modern day syria like she's still she's
00:21:11.900on like bank notes she's like so she's so respected um she's she's so famous in that
00:21:19.720part of the world to the love to the extent that like cleopatra is so famous in egypt or
00:25:27.120Yeah, because from what I could find, he only had one son before her.
00:25:31.720And that was never enough. You had to have the heir in the spare, at least, you know, if not more. So she absolutely was buried off to try to provide him more heirs because they always wanted to make sure that their throne was solid.
00:25:47.000um but the funny thing about that is is i uh reading more in depth on how they did things
00:25:53.600internally the the throne the crown wasn't a hereditary thing there so none of his sons were
00:26:02.560guaranteed to come behind him um it was more of a whoever was the strongest kind of ended up taking
00:26:13.580the throne and so i i get wanting to have as many sons as possible because they could fight to keep
00:26:20.180the throne within the family but it was not an automatic hereditary thing and that's interesting
00:26:25.920because not a lot of kingdoms worked that way well i was thinking yeah at first i'm like oh
00:26:31.680that's good you know i kind of that i like that but i'm just like that's gonna no wonder not a
00:26:36.200lot of kingdoms by that way because then it means every time the king dies there's going to be a
00:26:39.300civil war like you want to have some sort of stability which is why it gets into like the
00:26:43.480oldest son and that's why so many cultures do that i would imagine i yeah because who needs
00:26:49.440that chaos every time someone dies because back then you never knew when someone was gonna die
00:26:53.740you could live to be 80 or you could die at 20 you just you never knew and they would die from
00:26:59.100some of the simplest things i mean didn't the dauphin die from a ear infection so no exactly
00:27:04.940it's just like people yeah there's not it really depends about the medical knowledge or whatever
00:27:10.240but there's so many plagues happening all the time so many epidemics and just like blood infections
00:27:15.860like with all these wars exactly so I want to mention what we know a bit about what we can
00:27:23.420piece together about her education and her she certainly seems to have been educated to some
00:27:29.940extent so this was this tells us that this is a culture in which young women were given education
00:27:35.620So apparently she was an accomplished writer.
00:27:44.840And she was tutored by a distinguished philosopher.
00:27:48.020So I appreciate this is giving me Cleopatra a little bit.
00:27:50.860Just like learning the local language, learning other languages, like this sets you up in a way that not everybody would have been multilingual like this.
00:27:58.920Like this means that she can communicate with lots of different people, which is going to be helpful.
00:32:22.200you only see I'm winning so if if that's what she was surrounded by and that's what she really
00:32:28.980looked up to it's no wonder she ended up being what she ended up being no exactly and that was
00:32:35.000that was such a memorable moment just I was remembering in in our episode about Hedge0.91
00:32:38.980episode I forget I said something like wow you know Hedge episode she saw the women around her
00:32:43.820being successful and she saw what was possible and you were like no she saw it was inevitable
00:32:47.360she saw and people are like put that on a t-shirt it's like it was such a wise thing you said but i
00:32:53.760feel the same thing with xenobia like you just said it's like when you have these role models
00:32:58.080and that's why i think it's important nowadays um for people to be revealing themselves as role
00:33:03.980models for the next generation to see that people can achieve and can have this success because if
00:33:09.360you don't see it then you just never think you can but when you see it enough then it becomes
00:33:14.040inevitable yeah exactly and i think that's what i mean obviously and whom right to you know
00:33:22.560judge anyone but she might have had ideas in her mind of how much further she wanted to go1.00
00:33:29.820she might have had ambitions that she didn't necessarily you know fertilize to anyone but
00:33:37.440if she had any of those types of ambitions combine that with everything that she saw1.00
00:33:42.760she was going to end up being the xenobia that we were talking about0.65
00:33:47.380so if one of the reasons why she was married to this guy who he was she was maybe 14 he was maybe
00:33:54.70035 and it does seem like she did have numerous children so we know for sure she had a son whose
00:34:00.240name was the balithus that's another one i'm not going to attempt this anyway so he was she had a
00:34:08.080son, probably two other sons, possibly some daughters. One source suggests that she had
00:34:13.000seven children, potentially. We don't know exactly, but we do know that she was a mother as well.
00:34:20.740So I'm just going to give a bit of background. So Palmyra, which is in modern day Syria.
00:34:26.240At this point, it was a city of around 200,000 people, which in the ancient world, I feel like
00:34:33.100that's about as big as a city can be really outside of rome yes outside of rome yeah so and
00:34:39.400maybe some of egypt so one of the most significant trade hubs in the ancient world a stop for
00:34:44.040merchants traveling between rome and the east it's right on the silk road which is the trade
00:34:49.400route from east to west carrying silks from china and spices from india to europe so rome had
00:34:55.860everything i just said it's like where it's located like its proximity to trade so rome
00:35:00.060like Rome did like they seized it they they took control of the space because they wanted to have
00:35:05.940a hand in all this trade and everything that was happening but if you think about this place
00:35:11.720yeah they wanted it for the trade routes they because obviously that's going to make them money
00:35:16.620but think about the actual area that it was they had everything that they needed to survive there
00:35:25.900And one interesting fact that I read that their water source was an abundant spring, like it provided more than enough water for everything that everybody did.
00:35:37.800That thing didn't completely dry up until 1994.
00:35:46.160That's just a long ass time for this spring to be providing water.
00:35:51.020So what are the main things that you need for a civilization to survive? You need food, you need water. They had the abundance of that. They technically didn't need Rome in any way, shape or form. They had trade. They had a decent sized army because the Persians were always trying to invade. So they had a decent sized army to protect themselves. They had food. They had water. They had everything they needed to survive without Rome.
00:37:47.940And as long as he didn't try to overstep with that title, Rome allowed it because they figured he's doing what we need him to do.0.82
00:37:56.800He's protecting our asset against the Persians and any other place that comes to try to conquer them.0.70
00:38:02.860So all of our assets are safe as long as he can call himself king, whatever he wants to.
00:38:08.160As long as he doesn't put himself on coinage that contradicts what's really happening with Rome.
00:38:12.960So they let him call himself whatever he wanted.
00:38:15.200Because ultimately, it's kind of like I always say, you know, when your kids are little or young adults, they don't necessarily want to pay towards living in the house.
00:38:25.440They don't want to pay towards the electric bill and the mortgage and all that.
00:38:28.800And they just automatically know you live there, too.
00:38:32.100You're not going to let the lights get cut off because you need the electricity, too.
00:38:36.220It was kind of the same way with with Helmira.
00:38:39.380They might not have liked what Rome was doing, but they lived there and they needed to protect themselves.
00:38:46.080So they protected themselves against the Persians, which ultimately helped Rome because Rome didn't have to send anybody to fight the Persians.
00:38:53.680They would do it for them. So it was kind of a win-win for Rome.
00:38:58.460It was kind of a messed up situation for Palmyra, but they had to do what they had to do to survive.
00:39:03.660And unfortunately, that was doing what Rome wanted them to do and fight against the Persians.
00:39:08.660well and in terms of fighting against the persian stewardess want to know like again
00:39:12.300so much of like we're just kind of like filling in the blanks of like what seems likely but we1.00
00:39:16.740do know later on xenobia spoiler is going to become a military leader so she almost definitely0.99
00:39:21.580was with her husband when he was going on military campaigns because she learned0.98
00:39:25.540how to do that really well somehow so presumably she was out there with him
00:39:29.900yep like a true warrior queen and at the point where he became kind of king but under the romans
00:39:35.640this makes her queen at this point but still under the romans yeah and as long as everything
00:39:41.980looked to be under the romans the romans would let you be as long as they were getting their taxes
00:39:47.660as long as they were they had their lands as long as they could stand there and boast
00:39:52.280we are in charge they didn't care what you did and you mentioned coins before i love it's been
00:40:00.000know a minute on this podcast since we've had i love when people in the ancient world just like
00:40:05.480mint coins as like a pr move i love like coins like i'm gonna mint a coin and everyone's like
00:40:11.940shocked oh my god what'd she put on the coin like i love i love a coin minting moment and there is
00:40:16.020that so zenobia's husband odianthus um he minted coins with the roman emperor on one side um well
00:40:24.200basically with just the roman emperor on one side so he's like see i'm totally like rome
00:40:28.060that's what's on our coins don't worry about me like yes I call myself king of kings but not
00:40:32.780really like I totally love Rome so he's just kind of minting these coins to just sort of make
00:40:37.760himself seem like oh no I don't I'm not really in charge you guys don't worry about it all you
00:40:42.600have to do is placate Rome honestly they yeah they you know depending on how far away you were
00:40:48.700they didn't get that involved so as long as you looked like everything was on the level
00:40:55.740he didn't care they had bigger fish to fry they didn't care because in the middle of all of this0.77
00:41:01.740they were still fighting the goths because the goths kind of you know threw down the gauntlet0.66
00:41:06.840was like you know we're done with this we're coming after you so who are you gonna fight
00:41:11.240palmera who has a small army or the goths who were tearing into you i'm probably gonna focus
00:41:17.180on the goths all right exactly and this is again where rome is like overly extended like they have
00:41:23.200to fight this war here they have to fight this war here they have to fight this war here like
00:41:26.100they're constantly because their borders what rome the lands that they had claimed were so
00:41:30.640widespread like they're always at war so if they have this guy in palmyra who's like totally
00:41:34.420don't worry about me i love rome like look at my coins like yeah exactly i did read one time though
00:41:42.760that it was so bad that um they quote unquote forgot to send out tax collectors and other
00:41:51.260military heads to double check to make sure everything was going the way they wanted it to
00:41:55.760in Palmyra, which probably led to progression of how many more titles he started giving himself
00:42:03.420because Rome wasn't paying as much attention. You know, if you haven't seen a tax collector in a
00:42:08.980year, you're going to be like, oh, well, screw this. You know, I'm king of kings, you know?
00:42:14.620Exactly. So he's, it's, he's got this kind of delicate balancing act he's doing, but that
00:42:19.260comes to an end when he is murdered odianthus this is like on 267 268 um who murdered him
00:42:30.060we don't know um perhaps it was the romans perhaps it was the persians just the way that
00:42:36.080he's kind of like been playing both sides here i guess three sides really where he's just kind
00:42:40.220of trying to placate everybody that just rubbed enough people the wrong way that he was killed
00:42:44.920There are rumors that Zenobia was maybe, I don't believe that.
00:42:49.260And I read the reasoning behind why the person that wrote what I was reading, he gave his reasoning behind why he didn't think she was behind it.
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00:54:39.140When you had someone where everything was happening kind of all at one time, you were spread so thin, you had everyone fighting back and you were that weak.
00:54:46.980That was probably an extreme turning point where everyone was like, you know what, we need to go ahead and start fighting against them because we might actually win now because they're they're kind of not not what they used to be.
00:54:59.320Well, it's the ancient Roman version of just kind of like this is not the leader we need.
00:55:03.120Like nowadays, you see like maybe a political party will force the leader to step down or something like that's not who we need to win this next campaign.
00:55:09.140In ancient Rome, the version of that is just like, we need a strong military leader.0.99
00:55:17.800And that was the solution to everything back then.
00:55:20.480If things weren't going the way you wanted it to, you just kind of killed the person and then moved on to the next one.
00:55:26.880And I'm really thankful they don't do that anymore.
00:55:29.900But I mean, it was effective, but it was a really messed up way.
00:55:34.220because the next emperor is claudius ii also known as claudius gothicus and he's like
00:55:40.060a warrior he's like a military commander he's he's a much more threatening enemy like it was
00:55:45.840one thing for xenobia to be like yeah we're gonna break off from rome i'm minting my coins like
00:55:49.520palmyra is its own thing when gallianus is the emperor but now when it's this guy claudius the
00:55:54.220second yes and you know the funny thing about that is is i read in another passage that he
00:56:00.880Obviously, he was a lot stronger. And there's speculation that she had already started fighting back when he was in charge, but they didn't want to admit that he had any kind of weakness.
00:56:14.580So they pushed her back to the previous emperor. So to say, oh, yeah, well, he was weak. So that's why she started fighting back.
00:56:23.580And then Claudius kind of started to initiate, you know, going against her, whereas some of the timing didn't really fit, whereas he actually allowed her to do some of the things that she was doing.
00:56:36.300And no one wants to admit that because he didn't last very long either.
00:56:39.900So, you know, how can you go against it?
00:56:59.940I obviously don't know exact timing of everything, but they tried to say that she made her move under the weak emperor, not the strong one.
00:57:06.800But there's others that are saying, no, it was Claudius.
00:57:10.140He just he he underestimated her and he paid for it.
00:57:15.180And if you want to remember Claudius II as this great military commander, you can't show that she struck first when he was there. It just makes him look weaker. So it's like, let's just play around with this timeline a bit to make him seem a bit stronger.
00:57:28.900I mean, it's all about, we can't prove it. They wrote whatever made them look good, like they always did. And this is what you end up with. I truly believe she was kind of making her moves under both of them. They just kept underestimating her and they ended up regretting it.
00:57:49.440I have exciting news, Gina, which is a third coin minting moment.
00:57:53.000next time i see you i'm gonna see a bunch of coins behind you i love a coin actually sidebar
00:58:03.260so a couple months ago i went on a trip to england and i went to to bath but which is like
00:58:09.360was the ancient roman um bath and there's these ruins you can visit and stuff and one of the
00:58:15.180things they have and kind of their museum part is something happened well first of all there's
00:58:21.220sort of like almost sort of a roman version of a wishing well where they just found here's all
00:58:25.180the things that we found in this wishing well and i thought it's like was it a wishing well or it's
00:58:28.840just people just drop things but then you see this stuff you're like oh no this is clearly like
00:58:32.300people were like asking the gods for favors so there's like here's all the coins we found
00:58:36.760and they're from all different reigns and eras you would love it i think to see like all the
00:58:41.220different areas some of them some of them it's like these are actually like fake coins so it's
00:58:46.860like with someone trying to impress like a girl to be like oh look at this i'm gonna throw this
00:58:50.780coin in but it's actually just made of like aluminum or whatever it's like these are fake
00:58:54.380like fraudulent coins i'm so super rich so that i can just throw away my coins
00:58:57.940just like fake coins i'm like oh my gosh and then there was this one thing i'm not sure what
00:59:03.500happened some something happened where there's just that they some archaeologists were digging
00:59:08.020and they found like this big wad of just like coins all stuck together they'd all like because
00:59:13.720of some weather event or something like they all melted together and like they can't be
00:59:17.820but so it's like some stash it wasn't the wishing well it was like under a house or something it's
00:59:23.280like somebody's like secret stash of coins but like what happened so it's just this wad of coins
00:59:28.320and they're like we kind of looked at them and we looked and you can see like all the different
00:59:31.660so there's like timelines of like when was this city in use how old were the coins people were
00:59:35.960using if you're a coin fan go visit the robo boston path because there's some real coins
00:59:42.560that's funny but you know that's the thing that's how that was the only way that anyone had any sort
00:59:50.720of visual of who was in charge yeah because i mean and even it wasn't like an exact likeness
00:59:58.240but that was the only way that a lot yeah that was the only way anyone could ever tell who was
01:00:04.040in charge and they would always know if you've been carrying around coins too long because you'd
01:00:08.940have the wrong person's face on your coins i mean that that was their propaganda back then was just
01:00:15.380it was coinage because he didn't have he had no internet you had you didn't have newspapers you
01:00:21.940didn't have anything else but the coins to spread the word on who was in charge well if you'll
01:00:28.820recall the first coin moment was her husband was like here's a coin and it's got rome roman emperor
01:00:33.160on it we're cool with rome then xenobia starts well then they start the coin with just her
01:00:36.780husband's face and now she puts out a coin with just her son's face so this is like i think you
01:00:42.680missed the coin you missed the coin because there was one if i remember correctly there was one that
01:00:47.200had the emperor's face on it on one side and on the other side i think it was like a lion or
01:00:51.140something and in their culture that represented the king and so he had basically he didn't have
01:00:58.280his face on there so he could still say no you're in charge but representation within their society
01:01:05.260the king they would all know what he meant exactly yep and that was his first step of being
01:01:11.040trying to say that i'm i'm just as high up as you well and then you can see if you go from that sort
01:01:17.260of like well here's just a line and then it's like her son's face is on the coin this is this
01:01:22.180is making a huge statement being like this who's in charge here like local people not rome at all
01:01:28.840so this is you know the word gets back to the romans claudius the second as you mentioned like
01:01:38.300Of all the things to be taken out by, if you were that powerful of a man and you get taken out by the plague, that's just kind of like saying I got stung by a bee and I died.
01:01:47.480I mean, it's just, yeah, it was some of these really powerful people got taken out by the smallest things that I mean, I'm not saying the plague was small, but honestly, you would not expect someone of his stature to be taken out by the plague of all things.
01:02:03.060you think he would have been protected against that well you would because it's like you know
01:02:08.400this is your your emperor this is supposed to be the most powerful person there is but this is like
01:02:13.200the timing of it to be taken up by the plague in the midst of like he's overextended fighting all
01:02:17.460these battles the goths versus everybody so he uh the heir to like the next emperor is going to be0.94
01:02:23.880his brother but this was contested because rome is just like a mess like nobody it's not like0.97
01:02:29.200zenobia the brother's not just going to slide in there and everyone's cool with it like it's always
01:02:33.140a power vacuum with rome who's going to be in charge next it was never a clear cut that okay
01:02:40.520they're next there was always some sort of contention there but this is where like zenobia
01:02:46.120sees her chance like she finds out like there's this power vacuum there's kind of not unclear who
01:02:50.600is the emperor of rome and so then she launches her attack on egypt so she had this is where she
01:02:58.020leans into the like i'm the descendant of cleopatra so she had supporters in egypt egypt wanted to be
01:03:04.120freed from rome and she's somebody else coming in and this is where i love this about her not just
01:03:09.960that she claimed like i'm the descendant of cleopatra which she could have been cleopatra0.90
01:03:13.640had her daughter cleopatra selene who's married to the i forget it was a prince but anyway she
01:03:18.920went off to juba she probably had children we don't know the lineage from there like
01:03:24.200maybe xenobia was descended from her but she just claimed this connection to cleopatra
01:03:28.280and the people in egypt had fond memories of her clearly because they were ready
01:03:32.400to lay go to war with xenobia against rome and that's the thing she quote unquote took over
01:03:39.620but she didn't have to massacre half of the population to do it she was somewhat welcomed
01:03:46.380it wasn't it wasn't a complete takeover it wasn't it wasn't you i'm invading you and i'm
01:03:53.440going to take all your stuff she came in she could speak egyptian that right there worked in her0.84
01:03:59.100favor like cleopatra yeah so they walk in and they're like we aren't gonna make you like our
01:04:06.160subjects like to the point that rome did we're gonna work with you on this and let's combine
01:04:11.900we've got shipping and trade you've got shipping and trade we can combine it and we can all be0.78
01:04:17.760rich come on get on board i mean i have no idea no doubt that she walked in like that and was like0.97
01:04:22.940playing out all the good things that could happen to them by being under her rule. Because I didn't1.00
01:04:29.120read anything that said that they had these long battles for her to conquer them. It wasn't a
01:04:34.620conquer. It was kind of more of a just melding of two areas. Egypt was just like, come on in,
01:04:41.180please. We're tired of Rome too. Make us some coins. Let's get this done. So she had her best1.00
01:04:47.620general is called Zabdas. So he comes into Egypt. He invades with 70,000 men. They overpower the0.99
01:04:55.640Romans. They took over Alexandria, left 5,000 troops behind. And then after a second battle0.72
01:05:01.020with Egypt's Roman governor, Egypt's Roman governor, Tenagino Probus, lost, he kills
01:05:08.920himself, which is like what Roman generals do when they're dishonored. Yeah. So he dies. And
01:05:16.340And all this means that Zenobia is now the queen of Egypt, the first queen of Egypt since Cleopatra.
01:05:22.560And, you know, the funny thing is, is if you if you look at a map and you see how far away Egypt is from Palmyra, that is a long distance.
01:05:32.620She had a good sized kingdom once she got a hold of Egypt.
01:05:37.560She she commanded a vast amount of land.1.00
01:05:41.200that's gonna put up some red flags for the people that considered themselves to be the major land1.00
01:05:47.900owners of the world but the thing is if you can cover that much space as a woman in the third0.69
01:05:56.640century and you don't have anyone fighting against you besides the persians who were fighting against0.53
01:06:03.060pretty much everyone you're doing something right well and it's not just like it's such a
01:06:08.860huge amount of land and it's like the best land it's like yes fertile the agriculture palmyra's
01:06:15.260got the trade like the trade routes like these are like the two places you want like these are
01:06:19.620the best two places to have and this is and that is again hats off i don't know how you do it but
01:06:28.560she did it i think part of it too like she's got this guy zabdas who's like her most trusted
01:06:34.800general like her people have her back and i think that's so huge and so clutch because even like
01:06:41.120well cleopatra it's a very different story of cleopatra because every like but because they
01:06:45.860were the ptolemies in egypt like they did the people of egypt didn't super support cleopatra
01:06:50.340entirely because she was kind of an outsider but xenobia it's just like everyone like the generals
01:06:55.460the armies and maybe this traces back to her with her husband being out there on the battlefield
01:07:00.340but people respected her as like a warrior as a leader like yep i i just we never see this gina0.79
01:07:07.540in these stories of like all these men are just like hell yeah we will go to war and die for her0.91
01:07:13.480like that's never happens and because of that is the one of the main reasons why we don't have more
01:07:19.100information on her because there was probably a boatload of information that did exist on her
01:07:25.600And once these patriarchal men started reading it, they're like, oh, no, no, we can't know.
01:07:33.020We can't let anyone know this happened because women might start getting ideas.0.89
01:07:36.340Exactly. So I'm fairly sure that there was stuff all over about her and every time that it was found.0.56
01:07:44.400Because, I mean, the Roman Empire still existed for quite a bit of time after her.
01:07:48.920So I'm pretty sure anytime they came across anything, anywhere that they were, they just automatically destroyed it.
01:28:48.940So a triumph is basically, well, we've seen someone attempt one here.
01:28:54.500A triumph is basically a huge parade lauding yourself.
01:29:01.480And it's really, if you've, you don't do it like on a weekly basis kind of thing.
01:29:07.320This is only done if you've done something big.
01:29:10.460If you've captured someone big, if you've invaded someplace big, it has to be a big, just like shifting event for you to have a triumph because it was huge and I'm sure it cost a lot of money.
01:29:23.380You would have a lot of different street entertainers going, walking through the parade, doing like fire eating and all that kind of stuff.
01:29:31.680You would have a lot of vendors selling stuff. It would just be a whole citywide gathering parade.
01:29:37.680just i'm picturing like confetti and everything kind of thing but you would you would have a
01:29:44.000wagon um usually a horse drawn but i think when they were really trying to make you look bad they
01:29:49.140would actually use a mule and it would be carrying whoever it was they captured typically tied to a
01:29:57.320post on on this wagon and you would parade them through the the people and show this person thought
01:30:06.500they were better than Rome, but now we've got them tied up. From what I understand, she wasn't
01:30:12.300on a wagon. She walked the parade. And I'm sure you read the same thing I did. She was wrapped in
01:30:19.180golden chains and they were so heavy that it was difficult for her to walk. And she stumbled a
01:30:27.040number of times because of the weight of these golden chains. Now, if you really think about it,
01:30:32.580If something is pure gold and a solid gold, it's heavy. Gold is heavy when you have a big
01:30:38.580amount of it. And if they had her wrapped in gold and chains, I don't know how that woman even stayed1.00
01:30:43.000on her feet because that would be so heavy. But they had her in the triumph parading her along0.87
01:30:48.960showing that she thought she was better than Rome and now here we got her in chains.
01:30:54.600And that's what they did. That was Rome's way of trying to show everyone within their city walls
01:31:01.860that they were still dominant and then word of mouth would get out there that this is what the
01:31:06.600romans did to the person that went against them let's not do that because i don't want to end up
01:31:11.400in their triumph so it was it was a whole pr thing good stuff within their city walls bad stuff
01:31:18.320outside of the city walls to get people to fall online but this is where in terms of the triumph1.00
01:31:25.240like this is where it's sometimes uh whatever person they captured like a female ruler like0.75
01:31:30.040this or a male military like this is where someone's a roman person would kill themselves
01:31:34.780rather than be subject to this like this is where you see people like cleat patra killing herself1.00
01:31:40.460you see like people are just like they don't want this humiliation zenobia she's carrying these
01:31:46.100chains i'm just feeling like i don't know i feel like you know what she had core strengths0.67
01:31:49.680she had she had something she was doing pilates or something because there's no way i could do it
01:31:56.380no i feel like she's been taking like she's strong enough that she's if they're like
01:32:00.040carry these chains she's like that yeah you know how much i can don't worry about i'm xenobia
01:32:04.420like i got this and you know i think i read that her son was actually in that
01:32:11.080paraded in that triumph too but they don't go and i haven't seen any detail of what they did to him
01:32:16.480but he was they took both of them back to rome so i know he had to be part of that triumph they
01:32:23.160wouldn't let him sit on the sidelines they they would want to parade him along too because his
01:32:27.340was the first face that was put on a coin so you gotta you gotta go for that one you gotta show
01:32:33.400he's there too but yeah so this is where i mentioned before like we're not quite sure we
01:32:36.560know that these are things that happened we know that she was captured we know that she was in the
01:32:39.620triumphal parade after this it's kind of like where you know the historians the roman historians
01:32:44.680are just like let's just not talk about her anymore so some people theorize maybe she did
01:32:48.520kill herself some people fear like we don't know exactly what happened but what seems likely is
01:32:53.060what you said that she was just kind of put in house arrest so she was apparently given a villa
01:32:58.680near the tiber on the condition that she lived quietly um so what kate williams wrote here in
01:33:05.600her book is xenobia was worth more to aurelius alive than dead a living reminder that no queen
01:33:11.280should defy rome but like living in a villa i'm like sure right okay when i said she got the
01:36:59.660just from oral histories and things like that.
01:37:01.720Yeah. Yeah. It's so much has been lost in history. So many things that would have you and I up until one o'clock in the morning reading about it. And the only reason we go to bed at that time is because we got tired and we'd be right back up at six o'clock in the morning reading more.
01:37:15.900so it's really unfortunate that we don't have more on her because just the stuff that we do have
01:37:22.680is so fascinating and it's so it's I think it's it's thought-provoking it makes you think about
01:37:29.040what could have possibly happened what could have been her motives you know did did she really sit0.86
01:37:34.900on that throwing back fuck you let's do this you know so it's like you know it it leaves so much0.96
01:37:41.340stuff open to interpretation and i like the interpretations i come up with because she's0.97
01:37:46.700just a badass so i can't see any other interpretation like based on like the few0.98
01:37:51.940facts that we know it's like we know that you know palmyra won this battle we know that she
01:37:56.220took over egypt we know that everyone supported her it's like these things are true we know she
01:38:00.780made these coins it's like there's no other possible explanation except like she was that
01:38:06.460girl like she she just she was it she was able to do it like like you were saying it's like how do
01:38:13.160we get this power for ourselves how do we get exactly i mean i i need to i want to be like
01:38:19.200the pied piper and have all of them following behind me i mean come on i deserve that don't i
01:38:24.540no we need we need our own zabdas who is just there being like whatever you want ma'am
01:38:29.180i will do it i will lead these 70 000 men you want egypt got it like let's go let's go0.89
01:38:34.780yeah and egypt is like welcome please right anything to get rid of the romans and again it0.77
01:38:42.440just i just i cannot imagine being so oblivious to what the reality of life was that they really
01:38:49.260they had to know they were hated universally they had to know how do you ignore that and think
01:38:55.900you're going to keep going you you can't i mean logic dictates that eventually it's all going to
01:39:02.860end for you that's just the way it is you can't have that many nations against you and stay in
01:39:09.860power it doesn't work that way and she had so many nations that were technically on her side
01:39:15.580she just wasn't big enough to go against the might of rome that was the the only reason why she fell1.00
01:39:21.480is the size difference yeah and she i don't know just again like the strategies even when she's it
01:39:28.360seemed like like you're saying it's like rome is coming to get her and she's like okay like let's
01:39:31.840go in a blaze of glory like make the statues make the coins and then they come and she's like guess
01:39:35.920what i don't accept that loss i'm gonna say we won i'm gonna get a fake emperor like she's just like
01:39:41.820yes it was just she it might have been delusional in a way but you know what it was it was one of
01:39:52.040the better types of delusion where you know she was just gonna accomplish everything she could
01:39:57.400possibly accomplish until she just couldn't anymore. And yeah, I mean, what better way to
01:40:04.160go out? And then on top of it, she gets a villa and a senator husband. I mean, come on. She seems1.00
01:40:09.440like the winner to me. It's funny. There's a TV show that I watched a few years ago, but it still
01:40:15.680comes to my I, Claudius, the like 1970s miniseries. And there's so many times in that series that
01:40:21.560talks about like the Judeo-Claudian um like those people like anyway where somebody betrays the
01:40:28.800emperor or something like I'm gonna send you off to this island villa by yourself and I'm like this
01:40:33.800doesn't sound like punishment and the people in the show are like no anything but that and I'm
01:40:37.140like please send me exactly secluded like Mediterranean island villa like okay and most
01:40:45.620likely you had plenty of servants i mean you never had to worry about food or and you know there was
01:40:51.860plenty of wine flowing i mean you had everything you could want you just weren't in the society
01:40:58.440anymore big deal i'm an introvert anyways send me you and me would love it it's just funny to me it
01:41:04.780happens like two or three times in that series where the emperor is like i'm gonna send you off
01:41:07.800to this villa and they're like no and i'm like this i'm like googling like is that island still
01:41:12.160around oh it looks nice like and it probably looked even better back then yeah i don't know
01:41:19.380seemed pretty nice to me but to romans that was like the ultimate insult okay
01:41:23.700i i i hope that xenobia was like us like she had fought for so long maybe she was like you know
01:41:31.100what let's have a nice retired life like the romans are like this is gonna punish you and
01:41:35.220she's like sure yeah i feel punished and then she's bringing me the wine like come on kids let's go0.94
01:41:41.600oh no i'm in such misery like yeah it's just yeah and but the thing is that the roman empire was all0.86
01:41:54.160about high society and they you know they constantly had their their parties you know
01:42:01.060their dinner parties and they had their public functions they were a very let's let's get together
01:42:09.460and do something kind of society, they weren't, they weren't loners when it came to everyone that
01:42:15.360was part of the upper echelon, they were always doing something together. So to them, being cast
01:42:21.660out of that would be considered to be a punishment. I wouldn't feel that way, but they did. And I saw
01:42:30.340I can kind of understand why they would keep doing it to people, because that to them would
01:42:36.420have been like one of the worst things that could have ever happened but this reminds me of I was
01:42:40.960just gonna think sorry this might have been what you're about to say but like I feel like for you
01:42:44.560and me so when we were in like COVID lockdowns and stuff and like 2020 like I have friends who
01:42:49.620are real extroverts and they were struggling like to be at home by themselves and to not get to go
01:42:55.060out like they were and I was like wow I really am an introvert because I was like this is the dream
01:43:01.580from home with my cat every day no one's asking me to go anywhere no I was just like this but
01:43:09.040like there were people were struggling so it's like yeah I can see that's a punishment for some
01:43:12.560people for you and me it would not be so much yeah if if there was not one neighbor on the
01:43:19.100block that I live on I would be in heaven I mean I wouldn't ever have to see anyone hear anyone I
01:43:24.920don't have to give them the fake hi wave I don't have to do any of that I have lived here for a
01:43:30.140number of years and I know the name of one person that lives by me I don't know anyone else because
01:43:35.460I'm never outside because number one it's just too hot here but number two I don't want to get
01:43:41.040to know you I would rather be in my house because this is where I pay to live and I'm going to enjoy0.97
01:43:46.300every square foot of it while I'm paying for it I hope I hope that was Zenobia's vibe too I hope
01:43:55.260that she enjoyed her and you know it probably it might not have been at first because like i said
01:44:01.080she probably was really worried about her people but once time went on she seems like a logical
01:44:07.540enough person where she would have accepted this is just how things are let me make the best of my
01:44:11.960situation i mean because honestly why sit and torture yourself for the rest of your life i'm
01:44:16.880not saying that they never crossed her mind again until the time of her death i'm just saying she
01:44:21.180probably just, she just realized dwelling on it wasn't going to help her. So she just move on and
01:44:27.460enjoy what the Senator can provide for her. So we've got four categories that we always do on
01:44:33.840this podcast to score people. And I'm very intrigued. So the total, the maximum total
01:44:40.680highest score is a 40 out of 40. So it's four categories, zero to 10 for each one. The first
01:44:47.720category, Gina, is scandalousness. How scandalous was Zenobia seen in her time? And where I'm kind0.54
01:44:53.800of torn with this, it's like the Romans were like, who are you making these coins? And yet in Palmyra,
01:45:00.580in Egypt, they're all just like, hell yeah, love this. So it's like she wasn't scandalous to those
01:45:05.220cultures, but to Rome she was. So on a zero to 10, I don't know where that would put her.
01:45:09.100if you have to combine them i would say that her people the level would outweigh what rome0.99
01:45:19.240thought of her rome they would have her like on an eight or nine but her people would probably1.00
01:45:24.900have her at like a one or two so i would say i would probably have to put her at like maybe a
01:45:29.420four yeah to kind of average it out because it's interesting where like it's funny this it's
01:45:35.660interesting like you know i made these categories years ago but it is interesting with people like
01:45:38.900her, where it's like she scandals to some people, but not to other people. And the people that
01:45:42.560matter to her are her people. And they were behind her a hundred percent. They didn't find any of us
01:45:48.240scandals. So I think a four is fair to average out. Haters in Rome.
01:45:54.780Her people who are just like, hell yeah, go to war.0.53
01:45:57.700The next category though is so scheminess coming up with plans and strategies. And I feel like
01:46:03.400this is where she really excelled. Like not just the like Bugs Bunny ass plans,0.97
01:46:07.540but all for strategies of like the coins to be like you know what let's take over Egypt like0.95
01:46:12.300let's go up against her like she knew when to do the thing and how to do it in a big picture way
01:46:16.460and then like her small picture like Bugs Bunny strategies were awesome yeah because I mean if
01:46:21.200you look at the map of at the height of everything the size of the overall kingdom she had it was
01:46:28.560huge it I mean obviously it was no wrong but it was huge and so that wasn't just given to her
01:46:36.420she just didn't wake up one day and be like hey i'm the queen of all of this that's not how that
01:46:41.960worked so she had to have some sort of level of scheming to her and plus like you said with the0.99
01:46:47.180bugs bunny ass plan she she had a scheming mind she did um not necessarily scheming in the bad
01:46:54.840way that people view it yeah um just this is a complementary category scheming positive because1.00
01:47:00.820it was not it's not one of those oh that damn bitch it wasn't like that it was like oh damn1.00
01:47:05.180bitch you know there's there's a difference in how you say that one when it comes to her1.00
01:47:10.220so i would have to put her pretty high up there i would probably put her at like maybe a eight1.00
01:47:15.260because i think that she just she just i don't know if between her and whoever it was she had
01:47:23.420truly advising her they had it figured out i think that's part of it too it's like part of
01:47:28.080being a good leader is having the correct people with you advising you not that they're telling
01:47:31.860you what to do but you have people telling you like now like oh maybe not that right now like
01:47:37.140you know like she clearly it's not like she's not a one-woman show but like she's the head of these
01:47:42.940decisions she's making these decisions and she knows when to make that coin you know like yes
01:47:48.600when to release the new coin like when to put up a statue it's like she's she's got it all figured
01:47:53.860out uh the next category is her significance and that's just like significance to like history
01:47:59.680uh you know a lot of people because there's not a lot of information that exists about her would
01:48:05.640say she wasn't significant but i 100 disagree with that well and if we look at her people
01:48:10.060if we look at syria like she's on the banknotes like yes exactly the person and like i said
01:48:16.860earlier there's been numerous plays and movies and tv shows made about her um books written about
01:48:22.940her um her just mentioned in numerous things it might not even be about her but she's mentioned
01:48:29.400I mean, how many people can say that, that you are that known, yet how could someone say that you weren't significant?
01:48:38.260I would have to put her pretty high up there for significance, at least for her region, because she played a major role in, number one, keeping them from getting squashed by the Persians.
01:48:48.060And she held off the Romans as long as she possibly could.0.83
01:48:52.480It just, the size difference just made it impossible for her to completely win that one.0.72
01:48:56.280So I have to put her like probably at a seven.0.99
01:49:00.740I'd say seven was pretty, seven or eight is pretty fair for her.
01:49:04.300And we round up to eight just because I like her so much.
01:49:07.360And the final category is what we call the sexism bonus,0.78
01:49:11.060which is like how much did the patriarchy get in her way?
01:49:14.060And I feel like her culture, like in Palmyra, there wasn't,