Vulgar History - Regency Era Cottagecore Lesbians： The Ladies of Llangollen

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00:00:16.480 your ETF investing IQ. Hey everyone, it's Anne Foster here, host of the Vulgar History Podcast.

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00:00:47.200 again that's patreon.com and foster writer to get the video episodes and 30 off enjoy this episode

00:00:53.320 it's a good one. Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy 1.00

00:01:09.360 podcast. My name is Anne Foster and we are in our Regency era. This season we're talking about

00:01:14.800 the Regency era, which is if you think about like the Jane Austen times, Bridgerton times,

00:01:19.920 It's like the late 1700s, early 1800s.

00:01:23.800 A lot of the episodes are focused on England, but this week's episode is focused on Ireland.

00:01:28.460 We're talking about Wales.

00:01:29.680 We're talking about the ladies of Hlengochlin, and I have a very special guest joining me today.

00:01:38.360 So I'm joined for this very special episode by Katie Charlewood from Who Did What Now?

00:01:43.980 Katie, welcome so much.

00:01:45.480 Thank you for having me back.

00:01:47.180 i'm always looking for a reason to bring you back in this story i was just saying before we record

00:01:52.440 it it's like there's ireland stuff there's queer stuff it's like this is you i need you here for

00:01:58.600 this is me this is me i'm just waiting for your when you have to go on your big tour and you end

00:02:05.020 up over this side of the atlantic and then what we'll do is we're going to go to the caroline of

00:02:09.940 brunswick and brighton this is a plan we've had for ages and i am like we're doing it we're doing

00:02:15.880 it's like several years in the making we're like several years into this we're like we're gonna

00:02:21.000 we're gonna show up at this pub and it's gonna be amazing but today there is a little carolina

00:02:24.720 brunswick moment because she was she was the icon of the regency and she connects to everybody but

00:02:30.980 this story well okay i'm gonna it's the ladies of can you say that place name please and your

00:02:35.840 beautiful welsh accent you can put on glengal glenn the ladies of glengal glenn somebody somebody

00:02:42.560 out there might be thinking oh the ladies of Lengollen no no no Lengollen is what we say

00:02:50.540 and that language is is tricky I find it's even those I'm gonna do a language but

00:02:58.860 so as someone who has to pronounce a lot of words in a lot of other languages especially

00:03:04.940 place names and surnames like trying to wrap your tongue around a lot of these like luckily

00:03:10.520 because it's one of those sort of celtic languages there's certain bits that are easier because that

00:03:15.480 sound kind of appears throughout but it's the it's the to the oh and it's it's it's not it's

00:03:23.040 not easy i want to say like so much respect to all the welsh people listening out there we love

00:03:28.060 your language we love your accent and we're here to to try to represent you as best as we can

00:03:33.440 although this story does not start off in wales the story ends up in wales but um so we're talking

00:03:39.200 about these ladies um we'll talk later about what they look like um which well i'll say right now

00:03:45.720 what they look like to me in the most affectionate way possible is they look like ian home in the 0.97

00:03:50.660 lord of the rings movies but in a skirt is what they look like to me they're adorable little 0.65

00:03:55.240 hobbit lesbians that that is exactly that is exactly right i'm sorry i'm just picturing that 0.98

00:04:02.560 is perfect that's that's who they grow up into but we're going to talk about who they were as 0.97

00:04:07.260 young people first so the the ladies themselves it's eleanor butler and it's sarah ponson b

00:04:13.200 eleanor butler so her family was irish but they were living in france in 1739 when she was born

00:04:19.400 because of the whole thing where um protestant english people came into ireland and it was not

00:04:26.920 great for irish catholic people there no no there there's a there's a whole thing behind that

00:04:33.060 so yeah um they'll start to henry the eight as per usual because it always always am i allowed

00:04:40.780 to swear yes yes okay henry the eight uh massive prick he's like i am now king of ireland even

00:04:49.200 though he only had like a little bit of it and then it was when mainly mary the first started

00:04:54.460 some plantations followed by elizabeth and then james six of scotland first of england

00:05:01.580 And a man who, I don't trust anybody who writes Bible fan fiction.

00:05:06.120 That's all I'm saying.

00:05:08.600 So we've got this, we've got this unpleasant situation for people in Ireland.

00:05:14.060 So people with money like this family, the Butler family, went to France where it's just 0.83

00:05:18.380 a nicer time to be a Catholic person in France.

00:05:21.640 Because he's the Earl of Ormond, isn't he?

00:05:23.920 The dad.

00:05:24.560 The dad is the 16th Earl of Ormond.

00:05:26.680 And the mother has a fancy name, which is Eleanor de Montmorency Morris.

00:05:30.200 so they are they are they are fancy rich Irish people and they actually have a connection to

00:05:35.660 Anne Boleyn do they because yes so gossip okay historical gossip several hundred years late so

00:05:42.340 the reason that Anne Boleyn was brought back from France to England wasn't to like put her in front

00:05:48.900 of Henry VIII no no no this was because Daddy Boleyn he wanted to have control of the Ormond

00:05:56.040 estate so the Earl of Ormond had his son James the Lame he needed a wife and so their plan was to

00:06:04.000 get Anne over get Anne married to him and they would have the Ormond estate and that he would

00:06:09.260 basically rule it because they shared like a grandmother and so he thought I want that and

00:06:13.260 that was his way of sort of sneaking it in which is where Anne Boleyn was almost an Irish countess

00:06:18.300 but then we'd know what happened after that but yeah that's their connection to this story.

00:06:22.580 oh my gosh see this is where i had no idea like that could be that could be somebody else's like

00:06:29.740 historical fan fiction what if anne boleyn had just gone to ireland what would that all have

00:06:33.660 been like yeah what if she didn't survive this way i mean there's so many things with the what

00:06:41.080 ifs in history it's i i wouldn't have the time to research any of that but i love i love the

00:06:46.460 question and someone else could do it and then tell me no exactly and so what i want to tell 1.00

00:06:50.280 everybody too, just on the hop for this, for this episode about these ladies, um, is that they grow

00:06:55.980 up and have a lovely relationship. And I don't often have people on my podcast, like topics where

00:07:01.700 it's like, Oh, these, this was a nice relationship that never happens. And it actually never happens

00:07:07.180 when it's, um, a same sex, like a queer pairing. Like this is like, I just want to let everyone

00:07:12.360 know a happy story. So we're not burying your gaze in this one. No, no, it's so rare. It's

00:07:18.320 and i'm so happy to be able to to tell this story because i think a while ago somebody a listener

00:07:23.480 was like oh it'd be great like could you do more like queer topics but maybe like ones that don't

00:07:27.380 end terribly and i was like love to find one love to find one to tell you about and i found one yeah 0.92

00:07:32.640 because it'd be great but most of them end up in death mean terrible death and even if it's not

00:07:40.700 like some sort of like execution based mob violence it's often just like and then she got

00:07:46.360 tuberculosis age 20 like that's how most stories always like it's either tuberculosis or my personal

00:07:53.700 favor all roads lead to dysentery so but these two these two little hobbits they fall in love

00:08:00.980 they have a lovely relationship and they live to ripe old ages so just so everybody can know just

00:08:04.920 like the opposite of a spoiler or of a trigger warning like just like happy warning but anyway 1.00

00:08:10.940 so we've got one of them one of these ladies is off in ireland with her rich irish family the other

00:08:15.000 lady sarah ponson b was born in 1755 in ireland her parents there's a lot of names here i'm gonna

00:08:23.040 do my best and then you jump in and like say them properly her her father is chambray

00:08:28.920 brabazon ponson b you know what that is that yeah chambray as a name

00:08:35.560 so this is a great that's the dad her mother is louisa lions so her mother died and then like

00:08:43.720 there's married the dad remarried the wives kept dying but eventually um she's and then the father

00:08:50.660 dies i think as well anyway so she ultimately little sarah is sent to live with her father's

00:08:55.020 cousin lady betty founds in woodstock in county kilkenny are you are you familiar with this i am

00:09:01.180 familiar of county kilkenny yeah okay that's that's why i put that part in there um because

00:09:07.660 it's like just so people can place where this is so anyway um i should probably explain actually

00:09:12.040 Like, because Ireland, you have to imagine, even though it's a very small country, is

00:09:17.300 that each county is like, yeah, like, say, for example, if someone was from America,

00:09:22.300 they'd be like, I'm from Texas.

00:09:24.520 I'm from, you know, Arkansas.

00:09:27.600 I'm just, I couldn't remember states there for a full 10 seconds.

00:09:31.580 But no, so like in Ireland, you'd be like, I'm from Donegal.

00:09:34.660 Like me, I'd say I'm from Donegal and never met anyone from Donegal who wasn't incredibly

00:09:38.960 proud to be from Donegal.

00:09:39.960 like your county is sort of the big deal of where you're from like you're from Dublin you're from

00:09:46.780 Donegal you're from Galway you're from you know Cork Kilkenny like that's it's it's kind of like

00:09:53.580 a state but except states have their own laws and stuff but um okay you know we we just follow the

00:09:57.760 one law but we it's kind of a being from that county is kind of important it's part of your

00:10:03.000 sort of um I don't want to say personality but for a lot of people it is no that's so good to

00:10:08.600 know because like where i am in canada it's just like we have a city and like i'm in a county i

00:10:13.260 couldn't tell you what it was called but like the province is what's important so it's it's

00:10:16.420 equivalent to that it's like what province you're from yeah like yeah because i'm like yeah because

00:10:21.040 we have provinces too but the county is more important than the province really okay so yeah

00:10:27.160 and that's where like i was trying to explain this to somebody in france before because i was

00:10:30.940 explaining that a county was like a french province and they were like oh and i was like okay now you

00:10:35.940 understand where we are like geographically. But yeah, but this whole Ireland based part of this

00:10:42.220 is mostly in Kilkenny. So that's, that's where we are. So shout out to everybody listening from

00:10:46.720 County Kilkenny. So she, this little girl, little Sarah, she sent him to stay with her cousin and

00:10:52.280 her cousin was like an adult age person, but she was like devoted to her, which is great. It's not

00:10:57.700 one of those, like, again, there's going to be, you know, dramatic stuff in this story, but at

00:11:01.580 this point, it's not, it's the opposite of like a Charles Dickens type situation with like a

00:11:06.600 horrible guardian and award, like her cousin is okay. So she sends her as all wealthy ish young

00:11:13.640 women are to boarding school, um, to continue her education and working at the school at this time 0.92

00:11:19.840 is Eleanor Butler. Now, is there an age gap? Yes. But are they in love yet? No, because one is an 0.81

00:11:26.740 adult and one is a child. So just like, don't worry about it. Um, and what was Eleanor doing

00:11:31.020 there working as a teacher wasn't she in France so Eleanor is like okay so she's 29 she's unmarried 0.96

00:11:38.700 and she's like a scholarly she's just a straight-up nerd she's just like she is not interested

00:11:44.260 in anything except for just like learning things reading books being kind of like intense about

00:11:50.540 education and stuff and so she shows up at the school and she so Sarah at this point is 14 years

00:11:56.280 old. Eleanor is in like her twenties. She becomes her tutor. And as the years go by and, you know,

00:12:04.420 Sarah stops being 14 and becomes a bit older. Um, they develop an intense, I'm not going to say

00:12:09.820 loving or sexual relationship, but just like bond, like a relationship at this point.

00:12:15.100 And then Sarah, she graduates from school and returns to go to Woodstock, uh, to live with 0.99

00:12:20.380 her cousin, Betty, but Betty, uh, has this shitty husband because everything, a shitty husband 0.99

00:12:28.760 in the past. I'm shocked. I mean, no, but also then can you believe? So she's, um, the husband 0.99

00:12:39.000 is William and he is annoyed that Betty has not had a child in a big Henry the eighth vibes really.

00:12:44.980 um, where it's just like, baby, like what, what are, there's two people involved in this

00:12:49.800 failed fertilization. Anyway. So he's just like, I want a male heir. Um, and he's like,

00:12:56.360 well, what if I dump Betty and get together with this sexy young teenage ward? And so he's,

00:13:03.640 he was paying way too much creepy attention to her. Um, and Sarah to, to her credit,

00:13:09.520 because you know, some, not everybody would speak out when they're being treated in this way.

00:13:14.160 um she wrote to him um a letter just to be like just so you know like your feelings are not

00:13:20.620 reciprocated you are a creepy old man stay away from me she wrote the only things i feel towards 0.52

00:13:25.180 you are disgust and detestation i love her these two ladies like this is where you're like okay 0.99

00:13:31.900 they're both like they speak their mind you know anyway so she wrote in this letter if you continue 0.96

00:13:36.680 to pursue her i will inform my cousin and the rest of the family so which is interesting so

00:13:41.140 she just wrote to him she didn't go to betty she just told him like back off you know i think she 0.83

00:13:46.820 didn't want to tell betty her like guardian because she knew that this would like break her

00:13:50.460 heart and whatever so she's just like i'm gonna handle this like stay away from me creepy old man

00:13:55.220 but i love i love people who have that energy of i am going to burn this bridge with me standing on

00:14:01.140 it because here's the thing being who she was being a woman in that time period anyway her

00:14:07.940 word is going to hold less weight but even with that like so like out with the family you know

00:14:15.380 wouldn't hold much weight but within like he's going to be absolutely buggered so she's like

00:14:20.000 i was like my reputation might go down because they'll say i was luring you or whatever but i'm

00:14:24.460 gonna destroy you if you keep this up boy i love that for her the energy is like it's the best

00:14:32.280 under the circumstances really so well she was you know she's she's living in this house like 0.91

00:14:37.880 creepy guys there it's like she's writing this letter but they're living all together so like

00:14:41.000 it's a stressful anxious time for her but she's getting support long distance from her from

00:14:45.740 eleanor who they were keeping in touch via letters there's a lot of letters in this story

00:14:52.540 i miss letters right the letters who needs a text message send me a letter it's beautiful and they

00:15:00.940 were like writing fast and furious like they were staying in touch a lot anyway so they figured out

00:15:06.200 a plan together to help Sarah escape from this situation. And the plan was that they were going

00:15:10.800 to run away together. So I will say at this point, clearly they are in love with each other and both

00:15:16.700 adults. So yes, let's make that clear. They are both fully grown adults now.

00:15:23.460 There is, I just want to make that really clear. This is a story about these two cute little

00:15:28.760 lesbians and yes, they met when they were, one was 14 and one was 20 something, but now they're both

00:15:34.800 adults. So don't worry about it. So this is like when I was like, Oh, maybe I'll do a story about

00:15:40.760 these, these ladies of Hlen Goughlin. And I, and I never knew this first part of their story.

00:15:45.840 And this is where I was just like, God damn it. This is an astonishing story because you just 0.93

00:15:50.340 hear about them mostly as these little hobbits, but they were okay. This, this saga, I call it

00:15:55.580 the great escape part one. So March 30th, 1778, um, Sarah comes to her cousin, Betty, she's weeping,

00:16:04.380 And Betty is like, oh, you know, Sarah's crying because this little girl is ill.

00:16:08.560 But actually, Sarah was crying because she was going to run away and she was going to miss Betty.

00:16:12.420 But she couldn't say that.

00:16:13.500 And just for everybody to know, Sarah at this point is 25.

00:16:18.180 Eleanor is 39.

00:16:19.480 It's the ages of these ladies.

00:16:21.060 So they're not... 0.71

00:16:21.860 No one's a young teenager at this point.

00:16:23.340 They're all adult aged people.

00:16:25.000 So anyway, what happens?

00:16:25.940 Sarah goes to her room.

00:16:27.040 Like she weepingly says goodbye to her cousin in this dramatic way.

00:16:30.240 And her cousin's like, huh, that's weird.

00:16:31.560 anyway so i goes to her room puts on men's clothing disguise then she grabs her dog frisk

00:16:37.740 and i love frisk good boy there's dogs such a good boy there's dogs throughout this story and 0.99

00:16:44.140 they're always there on the side of these ladies these are these are dog owning lesbians and just 1.00

00:16:50.340 i love it for them anyway she also grabbed a pistol for her own protection and then she 1.00

00:16:54.820 um and frisk and the gun leaps out of a window to the ground below so she had paid a local

00:17:01.120 laborer to escort her to a nearby barn where Eleanor was waiting for her also in disguise

00:17:05.860 in men's clothing and so their plan was to leave Ireland by boat I think at this point their plan

00:17:10.980 was to go to England so they headed to the port at Waterford shout out to Waterford do you know

00:17:16.120 any fun facts about Waterford Waterford crystal I know is a thing oh Waterford uh it's the it's bad

00:17:25.060 because I always mix up Waterford and Wexford because they're just right next together it's

00:17:29.580 the vikings ended up there people can be like viking is occupation i don't care right we all

00:17:35.660 call them vikings we've said that they're vikings for a couple hundred years now we can i think 0.98

00:17:40.260 we're good so yeah the vikings were there they set up it's one of the main places that they

00:17:45.080 set up camp because it was fairly easy so basically you've got waterford above that is

00:17:50.360 cokenny so it's kind of just above it and then like to the side of that you've got tipperary

00:17:55.380 and wexford as well wexford is where all the strawberries come from now

00:17:59.220 it's basically the very bottom of ireland okay like but on the side of but on the side so that's

00:18:07.620 the part that's because it's kind of to the right hand side it is the part that is closest to the

00:18:12.900 uk right so and waterford is like the port like that's where you're gonna yeah you get you get

00:18:18.620 the port in waterford so they're they ran away and they're just like here's their plan we're

00:18:23.120 running away i feel like their plan was inspired by both of them are big readers i think they've

00:18:27.100 read a lot of novels and they're just like here's what's up disguised as men meet in a barn sail away

00:18:32.880 on a ship and they've got this really romantic idea about it but what happened is that everybody

00:18:36.520 knew instantly that they were doing this and they were being chased in a way i think they hadn't

00:18:41.180 anticipated that they would be didn't the man the mancini sisters do the same thing do they not just

00:18:45.760 like dress as men and flee on a boat yes am i mixing that okay i'm like didn't they do that too

00:18:52.620 a couple hundred years before i feel like our bella stewart also attempted to do this like

00:18:57.860 dress as a man get on a boat this is the classic plan this is this is everybody's plan what we're

00:19:03.600 gonna do shove on some breaches they'll never suspect us in breaches like sometimes it works

00:19:10.040 sometimes it didn't um but what didn't work about this is just like they ran away and everybody knew

00:19:15.460 right away so it was common knowledge by the next morning um that these two women had run away

00:19:19.620 together. So William, gross husband, William sent servants to scour the land to find them.

00:19:26.020 And so these like, honestly, you know, good job inspectors, the, you know, CSI team of the era,

00:19:33.400 they went to the barn and they're like, clearly they've been in this barn because here's a ruffle

00:19:38.080 from their clothing. And just once they had found that they were in the barn, they're like, well,

00:19:42.740 the only place they could be going is Waterford. So let's go there, which is like, obviously what

00:19:46.820 you're describing it's like well they're obviously going to this port city to catch a boat yeah

00:19:50.460 they're going to the nearest port so like that's why because kilkenny and waterford because they're

00:19:55.580 so close and because that would be the otherwise they're traveling across to get to somewhere like

00:20:01.760 dublin to try and get the port out and that's just more dangerous because it's a longer trek

00:20:06.540 because you know we don't exactly have trains what do we have trains we definitely don't have

00:20:11.660 that we don't have trains yet well we have our like these big carriages that i call like the

00:20:16.240 party bus that's just kind of like a huge very slow moving carriage which anyway but also i

00:20:22.940 will say sarah and elinor like they don't have a lot of um street smarts i don't think they would

00:20:29.440 know what to do with themselves if they got to dublin frankly yeah i think they'd be scammed

00:20:33.840 the moment they got there they just but yeah they're what's that they're hiding they're just

00:20:38.500 trying to hide out in waterford while they wait for wait for the boat didn't they miss like the

00:20:42.800 first one oh okay so what happens is they missed the last sailing to wales so they missed the boat

00:20:48.620 um literally and then they so they got lodgings for the night frisk the dog still with them um

00:20:55.580 he becomes the main character here and apparently he was barking so much

00:20:59.120 that when the men came looking for them they're like hey we're looking for two women and a dog 0.99

00:21:03.380 and everyone in Waterford is like funny you should mention that there's this little yapper 1.00

00:21:09.480 yeah it's like we can hear yeah if you go to the tavern it'll be obvious yep so Frisk I'm so sorry 1.00

00:21:15.960 but he you know he was excited he was excited to be part of this adventure I think he was just

00:21:20.740 aware of how much danger was around these ladies and he was just like no no no no no no no like

00:21:26.320 consistently being like I'm warning you I'm warning you both and I think that he was just

00:21:31.160 doing his best okay i think frisk nothing wrong with what anything frisked it they would have

00:21:35.740 been found anyway but they were found quicker because yeah so much everyone like when you've

00:21:41.120 i have a neighbor with a yappy dog it's like you can hear him from down the block like people

00:21:44.360 anyway they were caught they surrendered so um betty arrived she escorts sarah back home

00:21:51.860 eleanor's father who is he the baron or the earl or whatever he's just like you know fancy rich guy 0.95

00:21:58.420 also an asshole surprise and he's just like shocking shocking so she was placed in sort of 0.80

00:22:05.900 like a house arrest with her father so the two of them were separated and this is where eleanor 0.99

00:22:10.660 falls to her knees she begs to be able to stay with sarah at woodstock but this was not allowed 1.00

00:22:15.500 she was taken away by her family who decided to send her eleanor this 40 year old lesbian 0.98

00:22:20.320 you know in pants they're like we're gonna send you to a convent in france which is okay sure 0.93

00:22:28.140 Jen. Sure. That's what's up. But anyway, what happens is Sarah had caught a cold. She caught

00:22:34.000 a chill as so many people did in the Regency era. So many Jane Austen heroines. So she caught a

00:22:41.040 chill during their adventure. And so she stayed in bed. And then she was getting so sick, like a

00:22:45.860 doctor was called, like she was not thriving. Eleanor was like panicking from long distance,

00:22:51.160 just sending a letter every five minutes, just being like, are you okay? Like, you know,

00:22:56.040 she was so devastated to be apart from her and she was sick. So Eleanor was like, okay,

00:23:00.980 I will go to the French convent. Yes. But I will, can I have one final meeting with Sarah to say

00:23:05.860 goodbye to her? And the families were like, okay, I guess you can meet in person for 30 minutes.

00:23:12.220 And so she was able to meet with Sarah for 30 minutes. And while they were saying in this

00:23:17.400 meeting, I think presumably in the letters too, but they made plans for the great escape

00:23:20.540 part two. So, and this it's like, there's even more sort of reason to want to escape now. It's

00:23:25.960 Like, it's not just, we want to run away so you don't have to be with this gross with

00:23:30.100 your cousin's husband, but also not like Eleanor is going to be sent to France.

00:23:34.280 They're just like, how can we be together?

00:23:35.700 Like we need to be together and all.

00:23:37.720 And that means we have to put on some, put on our trousers and off we go.

00:23:41.240 Get your pants on.

00:23:43.360 So, so this one, like between the illness and everything, this is like one year after

00:23:48.220 the previous attempt.

00:23:48.980 So I will say Eleanor's father, who's like, we're going to send you to a convent in France.

00:23:52.180 It's like, okay, are you like, cause it's been one year.

00:23:55.960 so are you it's just a constant threat over her he's like if you don't behave it's like you're

00:24:02.340 not gonna get your dinner and then he gives her her dinner anyway and it's like if you don't

00:24:05.880 behave i'm gonna send you to france and she's 40 years old so anyway um are there not convents in

00:24:13.520 ireland the place known for massive catholicism are like oh yeah there's no convents no convents

00:24:19.580 like please exactly so this time so you know they have all these reasons all these reasons to

00:24:25.420 want to escape they just want to be together so under the cover of darkness april 1st 1779

00:24:30.380 so eleanor ran away from home to go join sarah at woodstock and coming in clutch is a new like

00:24:36.880 frisk is is a important character in the story but also is sarah's housemate mary carroll who

00:24:42.340 shout out mary steps up so she um as the rest of the household was asleep mary secretly opened the

00:24:50.200 parlor window so eleanor could climb in the window it's like babe she could secretly open a door

00:24:55.160 too but like these two these are dramatic trauma the time in the window time in the window

00:25:00.600 and so Eleanor crept into the house and then she hid in an upstairs room and it's this huge house

00:25:07.400 right slash I would call it personally some sort of like palace mansion it's a huge old

00:25:12.620 rich family home country house it's a big country house yeah so she's hiding in an upstairs room

00:25:18.680 for the next few days it's usually like Downton Abbey it's like yeah and no one knew she was

00:25:22.780 there because the house is so fucking big so she's just i love this detail whenever someone

00:25:28.000 came near the room she would pop herself and hide in a cupboard out of the closet into the cupboard

00:25:32.600 he's at it and mary carol thinking about this no that was beautiful and i didn't think of it i'm

00:25:42.820 so glad you did so but she mary carol would secretly sneak her up food so she could eat

00:25:48.140 just like sneak it up and just like leave it in front of the cupboard and the paw come in the

00:25:53.060 hand comes out like those little paws that take the money from the box and so for several days 0.85

00:25:59.720 this like ridiculously i have to say stupid plan works um so eleanor's family like eleanor ran away 0.76

00:26:07.060 from home and so her family assumed that she had run away with sarah but then they went to sarah's 0.97

00:26:11.020 family and betty was like no sarah's like she's here like she has not run away so everyone's like

00:26:15.140 I guess, I guess Eleanor ran away by herself. But then a few days later, a man from Eleanor's

00:26:21.360 home arrived to reveal, um, that Eleanor has been hiding in Woodstock this whole time.

00:26:28.000 And who's this guy? How did he know though? Who's he? Who is he? Also, how dare you? But also who

00:26:36.780 is he? Yeah. Like what? I don't know. So this mysterious man should have to just to ruin the

00:26:41.660 plan so anyway eleanor so they finally opened the cupboard it's like oh it's eleanor she's been

00:26:47.800 living in the cupboard um but they're like what are we gonna do with you i know and they're like

00:26:53.480 well we'll just keep you here for a while so she just stayed in the house but now in a room

00:26:57.620 um while they try to figure out what to do um so william the horrible husband wrote to eleanor's

00:27:03.140 horrible father like saying like i demand you come and fetch her and eleanor's father just like

00:27:08.780 no you know what i'm tired i'm tired of this no you keep her it's a lot of hassle like i i'm

00:27:17.920 getting old right i just i just want to smoke my pipe and eat my world that's original i just can't

00:27:23.840 like yeah just done i think which is if it wasn't worth it for him like from even from a societal

00:27:32.960 standpoint as well because can you imagine like oh your daughter's right away again how's she buddy

00:27:38.240 like like how many times would it just been like i think a smear on his reputation because of it as

00:27:45.700 well so i guess yeah he just wants to wash his hands clean of the whole thing so at this point

00:27:50.080 we get into some negotiations so he had the father had the family's lawyer relay the message

00:27:54.800 that eleanor and sarah can live together on the condition that they leave ireland and never return

00:28:00.960 which maybe to him was a threat but to them was like bet yeah great that's what we were gonna do

00:28:05.920 thing we were yeah the thing we've been planning to do this entire time that's been several years

00:28:11.500 and then you're just gonna give it to us yay yeah like that's why we were going so why did you grab

00:28:17.840 us from waterford in the first place so anyway so they're like peace out and off they went so

00:28:23.120 um sarah because these are both well this is an era where like we're gonna talk about this so much

00:28:27.920 this in this regency era season of this podcast everyone is writing travel memoirs like now any

00:28:33.920 everyone is taking pictures sharing on instagram like if you took a trip in these times you would

00:28:38.580 then publish a book about it that's what everybody did it's like in the mid 2000s when everyone had

00:28:43.200 a blog yes exactly yeah so sarah's she wrote a record of their early travels called an account

00:28:50.100 of a journey in wales performed in may 1778 by two fugitive ladies and dedicated to her most

00:28:56.020 tenderly beloved companion by the author like it's a long title it's a long title and it's i have to

00:29:01.900 say like, it's, it's like a very lesbian title as well, because like in the title, she's just like

00:29:07.800 a trip done by two ladies dedicated to her companion, to my beloved companion. It's like

00:29:13.340 you put in your title that this is dedicated to the women traveling with. It's beautiful. It's

00:29:18.740 beautiful. Um, I'm happy for them. They finally got away. So they were like, we're going to go

00:29:23.220 to England. But again, as I said, these are not street smart people. They don't have a lot of like

00:29:27.460 lived experience and quickly they realized they don't they can't afford to live in england so

00:29:34.020 they're like what about wales how about wales let's just go to wales it's closer also right

00:29:39.880 yeah and all they wanted which is what they're going to do is just to find a little house and 0.78

00:29:45.920 just like live as just two little hobbits they didn't want to go to like this big city and like 0.96

00:29:50.460 go to the opera and whatever they're like we just want a little house we want a garden we want a 0.99

00:29:54.100 landscape like wales northern so they went to the northern welsh village of clangochlin and they

00:30:01.240 rented a two-story cottage and can you say the name of the cottage that they named it plus navas

00:30:06.860 which is welsh for new hall and welcome to our new hall but i like that they went what's the 1.00

00:30:15.680 welsh for this we're going to use that let's be respectful to the area because the lesbians are 0.99

00:30:21.580 considerate harold okay i want to mention and so then they sent away and they're like remember

00:30:27.200 mary carol the servant they're like can you send mary to come and work with us and this is where i

00:30:31.720 want to mention this is great timing for mary who had recently been fired from her job working for

00:30:36.280 sarah's family not as you might think for helping eleanor sneak in the window and feeding her

00:30:41.480 covered food but because mary threw a candelabra at another servant so hard that it seriously

00:30:47.640 wounded the other person um this earned her the nickname mall the bruiser and so she's but like

00:30:54.980 how strong is her arm even a candelabra like you are like a heavy object necessarily

00:31:03.640 i know and it's big enough really i mean if it's a candelabra it's the one that's got like the

00:31:09.000 several like at least three candles you know and like it's not necessarily that heavy but how

00:31:15.380 strong is your arm that you're whacking that to like wound somebody like a proper wound i know i

00:31:20.900 don't think like it was described as like she threw it at them i think you have to like hit

00:31:24.640 someone with it to wound them with a candle out right yeah unless the candle on it was the person

00:31:29.920 also burned i don't know yeah i like to think that she's just got like a really super strong like

00:31:35.300 league of their own arm just like you know yeah so maul the bruiser moves in with him and so it's

00:31:41.960 like these two lesbians and they're made and they're, they're living in Wales. And so one 0.97

00:31:47.360 might think, you know, I don't know. I don't know frankly anything about Wales in the late 18th

00:31:54.260 century. Um, how were these two welcomed into this town? And it turns out they became quickly

00:31:59.300 beloved. And so this was partially because Betty, the cousin who is still there for her. So she

00:32:06.480 was like, you know, she was a wealthy, important person in County Kilkenny. And so she sent letters

00:32:11.660 to Wales too she had an influential friend who lived there Anne Hill Trevor Lady Dungannon and

00:32:18.040 she said hey this is my ward she's actually really great and this is her very good friend

00:32:23.920 and roommate Eleanor like can you be nice to them and Anne Hill Trevor was like I shall be and so

00:32:29.580 then when everyone saw that Anne Hill Trevor was cool with them everyone was like great welcome

00:32:33.780 welcome to Hlandgothlin you little hobbits and they're very unoffensive as well they were just

00:32:40.360 there just kind of existing so it wasn't as if they were out like causing big dramatic scenes

00:32:48.480 in town no exactly like this is the thing like they the most exciting thing these two ever did

00:32:53.560 was run away and as soon as they got away they're just like great let's just set up a domestic life

00:32:59.160 let's adopt some dogs let's do some farming like all they wanted was this quiet life and they got

00:33:04.340 it. So it's like, why would anyone? Why would anyone hate that? Why? Why? And now for a quick

00:33:11.000 advertising break. Dyke bars had all the things, the drama, the romance, conversations to change 0.79

00:33:28.640 your life, to change your mind, sense of competition. It also had community. Why is it 0.87

00:33:35.680 gone? We need everything. We deserve everything. Welcome to Our Dyke Histories, a podcast where

00:33:42.320 we dive deep into the living, breathing past and present of lesbian, bi, queer, trans and

00:33:47.500 non-binary communities. I'm your host, Jackie Esking, historian, geographer and environmental

00:33:53.040 psychologist, working in collaboration with Sinister Wisdom. This season, decade by decade,

00:33:58.700 we focus on dyke bars with an asterisk, tracing the creation, spread, decline, and revival of 1.00

00:34:04.520 brick-and-mortar lesbian bars alongside the ever-present, not-as-equally-recognized and 0.85

00:34:09.420 itinerant parties, especially those for racialized women and trans people.

00:34:13.080 she had a mansion later called the garden of Allah and she had these fabulous house parties 0.96

00:34:23.520 with ingenues in this swimming pool they may or may not have been very sexual like orgies 1.00

00:34:31.700 we found a lot of examples of black crew women gathering together in Harlem speakeasies putting 0.96

00:34:38.340 blues song on the jukebox, dancing together in ways that the vice performer watching found to

00:34:43.440 be very, very shocking and scandalous. It was a rich darkness. We created because of the power

00:34:52.220 of desire. We focused so much on bars. And yes, that's where we became the public face of our

00:34:58.080 bodies. That's where our bodies entered public life. Where the touch you wanted was, I decided

00:35:04.980 that we created a new gender, the gender of desire. One of the things we don't think about

00:35:11.440 is still to this day, 40% of people incarcerated in women's prisons identify as LGBTQ. They're

00:35:17.960 where people end up after being at the bars. They're where people socialize outside the bars,

00:35:22.680 but we rarely think about them as social spaces.

00:35:26.140 even beyond bars as sites of politics politics around bars the site of activism and anti-racism

00:35:35.860 organized in response to women of color getting kicked out of bars when Koch became mayor of New

00:35:42.960 York in the late 70s he started forcing people out of those spaces and tried to close down

00:35:51.160 other bars and succeeded in many cases to sell those spaces.

00:35:56.480 I personally am a very indoor person, but it does feel like the softball field is probably

00:36:01.560 better for us overall, even though clearly in the Great War, the bars won. 0.55

00:36:07.940 My first lesbian bar, the windows were painted black. It was very tiny. There were all these

00:36:13.640 women sitting at the bar and they would all turn and look at the door when you walked in and then 1.00

00:36:17.680 would look away. And there was always some girl breaking up on the pay phone and crying.

00:36:24.240 And the bathroom was always flooded. One night, I didn't even make it into the

00:36:29.200 Clip Club because I just was making out with the bouncers.

00:36:35.420 I'm not going to lie, there were three of them. There wasn't a gay club I went through. I didn't

00:36:40.120 have sex in. It was just beautiful and you had something for everybody.

00:36:44.740 alongside the bars and parties we talk about the structures that made them necessary 1.00

00:36:51.000 the lives they made possible and the dyke worlds we built from them like our sponsor 0.97

00:36:55.700 sinister wisdom a multicultural lesbian literary and art journal uplifting lesbian voices since 0.98

00:37:01.040 1976 we share these stories so we know more about who we are how we were and why we fight to never

00:37:07.760 forget. These are our stories of danger, of laughter, of sex, and of radical joy. We didn't

00:37:14.560 just take up space. We built it. Our Dyke History is from Jack Cengisking in collaboration with

00:37:21.100 Sinister Wisdom. Check out our newsletter at queergeographies.ghost.io. Our first season 0.69

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00:37:52.740 The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered

00:38:00.540 like bones in the dust.

00:38:02.580 Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world,

00:38:06.760 praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight.

00:38:10.040 But in the shadow dark, the darkness always wins.

00:38:14.320 This is old school adventuring at its most cruel.

00:38:17.800 Your torch ticks down in real time.

00:38:20.120 And when that flame dies,

00:38:21.620 something else rises to finish the job.

00:38:23.720 This is a brutal rules light nightmare

00:38:25.920 with a story that emerges organically

00:38:28.620 based on the decisions that the characters make.

00:38:31.300 This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s,

00:38:33.740 and man, it is so good to be back.

00:38:36.040 Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark

00:38:39.000 every Thursday night at 8 p.m. Eastern

00:38:41.060 on youtube.com slash the glass cannon

00:38:43.340 with the podcast version dropping the next day.

00:38:46.740 See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark.

00:38:53.920 Welcome to the realms of peril and glory.

00:38:58.620 Explore the mechanically magical vistas of Vale, the paranormal mysteries of liminal London, and the cyberpunk chaos of Cyborg.

00:39:12.100 Be awed by our incredible guests from familiar shows like Oxventure and No Rolls Barred.

00:39:20.060 Search realms of peril and glory to find out more.

00:39:23.560 and we're back so these you know i think it's also in terms of like history and stuff it's like

00:39:32.980 well you know who was like accepting of a same-sex relationship this small northern welsh town in the

00:39:39.020 late 18th century so get it together the world of 2025 these people didn't care and what was

00:39:46.400 her and hill trevor was cool with it so like why aren't you but so sarah and elnor so they it's

00:39:51.820 such a weird thing like they tried to run away they were brought back and then the family was

00:39:54.940 like leave and never come back and they're like okay and because they did that so they didn't

00:39:59.900 cut off contact with their families because the family still helped them out financially 0.73

00:40:03.060 which is crucial here because they're women from the past so legally for you know they don't really 1.00

00:40:10.680 have access to funds or a lot of the time employment exactly like they need funding from 1.00

00:40:16.480 somehow, like they're renting this, this, the new hall. So they need money. So the family was

00:40:21.900 still helping out financially. And then, so just, they're so cute. They're so cute and sweet. So

00:40:29.000 articles about the ladies and their beautiful home started to be shared in fashionable magazines of

00:40:34.180 the era, which meant the people, the superstars of the Regency era heard about them. And they

00:40:39.400 were like, we want to go see these little lesbians. Let's go to Wales. And this is when they became 1.00

00:40:45.040 the ladies of Hlandgothlin. So their visitors included Lord Byron, who, sorry, Byron. He's

00:40:56.280 never not going to be in every episode of this series. He is the rake, the rake, the amount of

00:41:05.000 times I've heard about Lord Byron researching literally anyone. It's like, Oh, and he was a

00:41:09.440 regular dinner guest at this person. I'm like, how many dinners a day was this man having that he's

00:41:14.860 a regular dinner guest at all of these homes so i know but of course he never had to fed himself

00:41:20.620 i think he just like that was his thing he would just go and have to deal with other people

00:41:24.540 like all the time he's clearly never in his own house yeah he's just going and he's just going

00:41:29.680 to wales hanging out with the ladies sure i i think he just survived on like compliments really

00:41:35.800 and that's why he was traveling everywhere because like he just needed that to survive

00:41:39.400 not necessarily food is sustenance because he's again blood byron and everyone's like hey cool

00:41:45.120 aren't you the guy who shagged his sister um sorry half sister apparently that's important but yeah

00:41:50.320 no so lord byron went to hang out there and that and i'm sure he probably went back and when he was 1.00

00:41:54.800 having dinner with literally everybody he'd be like you know who i want to visit is these lesbians

00:41:58.700 and whales and everyone's like oh i should see them too percy shelley also went there there's

00:42:03.140 something about like the like romantic poets really like the way that they were living off

00:42:08.460 the land like people just found this really lovely and the ladies of land they find it very

00:42:14.340 cute it's so adorable they encourage their visitors to write poetry about them as you would

00:42:21.960 i heard my visitors to write poetry about me no one has but baby i will visit you and i'll write

00:42:29.920 you a haiku like that's i'll do it okay thank you likewise um so the ladies encouraged people so

00:42:35.840 so these poems by you know lord byron percy shelley like famous poets were coming out about

00:42:40.260 them and has helped cultivate kind of their fame so i'm not going to read this whole thing but

00:42:44.540 william wordsworth wrote a whole poem about visiting them um and it ends with um sisters

00:42:50.880 in love a love allowed to climb even on this earth above the reach of time it's just lovely

00:42:58.900 they're just lovely little lesbians just loving their lives and that's it that's it that's that's

00:43:06.980 that's the thing it's this is where because at first I was like oh maybe I'll do an episode

00:43:10.240 about them but all I knew about them was this era where it's like well they're just these nice

00:43:14.180 little lesbians having their house cultivating their garden and I'm like I don't think there's

00:43:19.080 an episode there this is just a nice thing but no there's all the drama beforehand so that's 0.99

00:43:22.800 I'm like okay this is a good story to tell but yeah so they're just living their life they're

00:43:25.920 having this amazing time and um an article about them was posted in in a journal called la belle

00:43:32.180 assemblée and this caught the eye so when we're recording this it hasn't come out yet but a few

00:43:37.020 weeks ago i did post an episode about ann lister so the other the other most famous lesbian of this

00:43:43.740 era ann lister read about them and she was just like lesbians well i have to go see them too

00:43:49.120 and so this is where in the previous episode the ann lister episode which if people haven't heard

00:43:53.460 it they should but one of my guests was saying like how moving it is to see like in this era

00:43:57.540 to go to see your queer elders that ann lister was able to go and like see people living this life

00:44:03.800 like because ann lister had been like wanting to like get a wife and settle down and so she's like 1.00

00:44:08.220 oh talk to the ladies like how did they figure this out because there was rumors of the ladies 1.00

00:44:11.960 had some sort of commitment ceremony and ann lister was like what what was that like so the 0.94

00:44:16.520 fact that she got to see them is really lovely i think and so she headed down to wales um and she

00:44:22.640 was well ann lister is very famous for having written down every thought that ever crossed her

00:44:26.200 mind um but she wrote those journals i i tried i read some i tried i don't have enough hours in

00:44:36.140 the day like she left she did literally write everything every thought she's ever thought

00:44:40.520 every idea every consideration and and yeah yeah no i had to stop it's just too much it's pretty

00:44:49.740 epic yeah the again like listeners if you haven't heard the ann lister episode from like two weeks

00:44:54.100 ago one of my guests is one of the people who worked on transcribing the diaries and so it so

00:44:59.440 she has them all there in front of her so she can do a word search to see like how often did she say

00:45:03.120 this word but it's it's such a massive thing like you need to do a control f search like oh did she

00:45:07.800 ever mention carolina brunswick like let's like it's it's you can't just read it it's massive

00:45:12.900 anyway but part of this ann lister wrote about going to visit the ladies of hlengochlin there

00:45:18.180 is something in their story and in all I've heard about them here that added to other circumstances

00:45:23.200 makes a deep impression. So basically she's just like, these are my queer elders and I'm so excited

00:45:28.420 to see them. At this point, the ladies have been living there for 40 years. They are, when I say

00:45:34.300 they're her queer elders, they're like 80 years old. So Anne Lister went to see, she's only able 1.00

00:45:39.120 to see one of them, I think, because one of them, we'll get to that. But I do just want to backtrack

00:45:44.240 and say so they've been living these cute little hobbit lesbians for more than 40 years living in 1.00

00:45:50.220 how do you say it plus plus plus nevis plus nevis for more than 40 years like they're just 0.98

00:45:56.960 pillars of the community at this point their relationship was like they're so famous right

00:46:01.900 although i will say they did not let anybody paint their portrait so no one like they wrote

00:46:07.220 it's like write poems about me but don't take my picture like no one can know what i look like but

00:46:11.720 write about how great I am so this kind of lent to their air of mystery their mystique it's it's

00:46:19.060 a lovely thing um so the relationship was widely understood to be a marriage which it was by you

00:46:27.420 know just common law laws of today like they were two people who had been together for 40 plus years

00:46:32.800 for instance Carolina Brunswick this is Caroline's Corner in in these Regency era episodes when she

00:46:38.740 shows up we call it caroline's corner so she wrote um lady eleanor butler and mademoiselle

00:46:44.440 ponson b must be mad i should think to choose to leave the world and set up in a hermitage

00:46:48.860 in wales but to each their own it would not be my preference i do dread being married to a lady 0.89

00:46:54.280 friend men are tyrants but the women heaven help us they are true nero's over those they rule

00:46:59.820 caroline needs better friends i think really yeah if she's like she's married to george like she's 0.68

00:47:06.180 married to prinny george the fourth and she's like she's like oh but i would never want to live with 1.00

00:47:10.900 a female friend it's like bitch what like like that's because you're surrounded by awful women 0.99

00:47:15.920 i'm sorry caroline but you need i'm traveling to the past and be like bet please yeah i'm thinking 0.98

00:47:22.280 through her story as well which i know incredibly too well almost and i'm like yeah she had like

00:47:28.180 some she had close lady friends but she kind of went from friend to friend to friend and they

00:47:31.660 kind of the friendship's kind of burnt out always her most steadfast um partner was she had this

00:47:38.580 italian servant lover later on anyway but you know it's like carolina brunzel wrote this but

00:47:44.560 she was just like writing a letter she just kind of like talked shit a lot anyway but the fact that 0.89

00:47:48.080 she had heard of them she's saying it must like they're mad to go live in a hermitage in wales 0.92

00:47:52.560 and it's like well caroline like you went to live in effectively that in italy like eventually at

00:47:57.480 a certain age we all just want to live in a little farmhouse I think at some point we all just want 0.76

00:48:01.540 to be lesbians in a cottage like that don't we all and you know what so yeah like they were clearly 0.77

00:48:08.860 lesbians comma and I think two ladies who are not lesbians I think it'd be nice to live together 0.98

00:48:15.860 in a hermitage in Wales I think this just sounds like to me a lovely a lovely way to live anyway

00:48:21.340 so the cottage um so here's here's a description over so they were like hgtv like home renovation

00:48:28.560 lesbians so they had turned this their home into quote a gothic fantasy so here's anthony delaney

00:48:35.460 where i got a lot of the information about them from his book the queer enlightenment

00:48:38.700 so um he writes they added intricately carved oak paneling that had been reclaimed from much

00:48:44.760 older churches to the walls and dramatic stained glass throughout the gardens had been artistically

00:48:50.340 remodeled too small gothic follies such as an imitation ancient ruin littered the grounds

00:48:55.780 whilst a collection of exotic fruit thrived in the greenhouse around the garden pinned to

00:49:00.380 carefully chosen trees poetry extracts fluttered in the welsh winds poetry is pinned to the trees

00:49:07.220 like poetry about them presumably i mean maybe maybe just other poetry oh so maybe the poets

00:49:14.260 when they were there wrote things and they were like okay that's going on the poetry tree like

00:49:19.220 that it sounds lovely and if you've been living in the same estate for 40 years like you have time

00:49:24.420 to really make your mark on it so i love the exotic fruit growing in their greenhouse like

00:49:30.720 it's like i love i love that there's little follies like there's more than one i like

00:49:36.540 and follies exist like a lot of follies exist to give work to people like that was but they're

00:49:42.880 just like oh we've seen somebody do that let's us do that too but also let's go deep like let's go

00:49:48.020 back imitation ancient ruins like they're just like yeah i love it why not if families are sending

00:49:58.340 us money let's just like get some stained glass windows from cathedrals let's just reclaim the

00:50:04.360 wood from the old church like it's beautiful what they're doing somebody found us a stonemason

00:50:09.500 because we need to get this replica replication ancient ruin together. Like let's do it. I love

00:50:18.180 that. And it's beautiful. And this is why people go there to visit and it's like, yeah, this is a

00:50:22.080 real destination. You're going to see a lot of stuff. So at the time that Ann Lister arrived,

00:50:26.180 so Mary was very ill with, um, she's like in her eighties, like late eighties, early nineties. And

00:50:32.820 it's like the olden days. So like, yeah, she's ill. So she's ill. So when Ann Lister comes,

00:50:37.060 she's only able to meet with Eleanor. Oh wait, no, Eleanor's the older one. Eleanor is 67.

00:50:42.940 Mary's younger. Oh, so Mary's not even that old. She's like maybe in her fifties and she's ill.

00:50:47.020 Anyway, Ann Lister arrived and she's able to meet 67 year old Eleanor, but not Mary. So she wrote,

00:50:52.580 this is quite rich coming from Ann Lister noted, um, noted for her unconventional style of dress

00:51:00.340 that she's like, Eleanor caught a very odd figure dressed in a blue shortish waisted cloth riding

00:51:06.060 habit the jacket unbuttoned showing a plain plated frilled habit shirt a thick white cravat

00:51:11.240 rather loosely put on hair powdered parted down the middle in front cut to a moderate length all 0.97

00:51:16.760 round and hanging straight tolerably thick like she's wearing a fucking cravat like eleanor is 0.95

00:51:22.040 just like i'm sorry but that sounds amazing right that is a style incredible incredible and also the 0.93

00:51:29.920 short hair i think is is notable and interesting but the fact that she's got her hair powdered so

00:51:35.660 this time like in the like mid 1800s like that's a very old-fashioned thing to do so these these

00:51:40.460 are just sort of old ladies who are wearing like a cravat like a frilled shirt it's just like

00:51:46.640 yes please I think you know sometimes you find a look and you know that's your style and you just 1.00

00:51:52.740 stick with it I love that for her I love it I love it there's a woman who I used to work with

00:51:57.240 who um clearly found her look in 1987 and I was just like oh this is startling who like what

00:52:03.300 hairstylist do you go to who gives you this like feathered perm but it's like it did suit her so

00:52:09.380 it's like you find it look and she wore a lot of like chenille pattern sweaters where it's like you

00:52:13.940 are from 1987 you that is you i love a chenille pattern sweater let me tell you yeah oh the sweat

00:52:22.220 i miss the sweater shop oh the sweater shop used to make so many weird and wonderful just bring

00:52:28.060 back weird sweaters i like it started it has started there has been a resurgence but um then

00:52:32.800 You know, the ugly Christmas sweater, like I think if that can spread into year round

00:52:38.060 whimsical sweaters, I'm happy about it.

00:52:40.700 Especially when I live somewhere so cold all the time.

00:52:43.800 You gotta, you gotta, my mother, um, she would knit for us when we were kids.

00:52:49.120 So we would get the like pattern books of the like whimsical sweaters and you'd choose

00:52:53.360 one and they'd send her the kit and she would knit this.

00:52:57.660 I had this one sweater that had like a dinosaur, like a stegosaurus that went across it.

00:53:01.860 and then it went down the arm and then there was like little sticky up little triangles yeah yes

00:53:07.580 the little fins that's not the word for it thank god my son isn't here because he would be telling

00:53:11.120 me the correct one i don't know what they're called but that was like when i like see there's

00:53:15.620 some dinosaurs in the background exactly and i was that dinosaur kid so i just had this like

00:53:20.580 dinosaur womb anyway bring back some sweaters bring back some frilled shirts some cravats like

00:53:25.180 bring back cravats yes cravats for ladies so ann lister said she did say you know like whoa

00:53:32.760 what a weird outfit which like again very rich coming from ann lister noted for her bananas

00:53:36.920 outfits anyway ann lister said eleanor had a certain je ne sais quoi like yeah she does yeah 1.00

00:53:42.820 these ladies are fantastic and i just want to uh also say so while they were widely understood to

00:53:48.640 be in a marriage by everybody including carolina brunswick so they never publicly stated that they

00:53:54.360 were in a romantic or a sexual relationship but it's like why they just had people come and visit

00:53:58.880 them and write poetry about them they're not like making statements to the press they're not like

00:54:01.860 going on instagram being like we watch me kiss my wife no no so they never said anything about it

00:54:09.580 but this is also kind of like reputation is so like you were saying about like her her dad it's

00:54:14.780 like this is too scandalous my daughter keeps running away i'm just going to cut her off like

00:54:18.040 why why would they come forward and just they need the financial support of their families

00:54:22.980 they need public acceptance. They're not going to be like, hello, we are lesbians, but it's like, 0.92

00:54:27.220 we are two people who have loved each other very much and have lived together for 40 years. Like,

00:54:33.260 you know, like your actions speak strongly about what's going on. But also anyway,

00:54:38.640 so they presented themselves as very devoted friends, as, as we say, um, historically very

00:54:43.960 good friends, roommates, whenever, um, newspapers or pamphlets hinted that they were lesbians,

00:54:50.980 they sometimes would consider taking legal action about them, but they never actually did because 0.83

00:54:55.160 that would be, that's too much drama and that's not their vibe. So I have a quote here. So there's

00:54:59.240 a book called Mad and Bad Real Heroines of the Regency by Bea Koch, which is a fantastic reference

00:55:05.260 just to learn about all these people. But she, she writes, I think very, she explains this whole

00:55:11.280 thing very well. So she says, ever since the ladies elopement, there's been debate about the

00:55:15.320 sexual nature of the relationship, one that has continued throughout years of scholarship. The

00:55:18.940 ladies have long been considered in the tradition of romantic friendship. There is another very

00:55:22.800 different school of thought that situates the ladies firmly in the middle of the gay and lesbian

00:55:26.380 liberation movement. What is clear is that the ladies made unconventional choices that were

00:55:30.820 accepted, if sometimes questioned by their contemporaries. Rather than declare them

00:55:35.380 lesbians or any other sexual identity, queer seems to fit the ladies best. As David Halperin notes, 1.00

00:55:40.940 queer is by definition whatever is at odds with the normal, the legitimate, the dominant. The 1.00

00:55:45.620 ladies certainly fit within that tradition. They courted respectability while also refusing to 1.00

00:55:50.160 conform to the expected. So in terms of like, and I'm sure in all of your research too, like when

00:55:56.060 you're looking at people from history who we would now consider queer, like none of them are being

00:56:00.760 like, we're here, we're queer. They're all just kind of like, this is just me. Here's what I'm up

00:56:04.360 to. Like they're not. Yeah. And even, and even it's difficult with a lot of things, even when

00:56:09.680 we talk about everything from sexuality to even feminism because our modern perception of what

00:56:15.940 that is it's like it's trying to understand how it was back then and how like nowadays we don't

00:56:21.940 have shame shame isn't a real thing we don't really have it anymore we're quite happy to

00:56:25.740 embarrass ourselves daily um and we're not really that affected by even peer pressure to an to an

00:56:33.280 extent whereas back then like your your life would be over you would have nothing worth living your

00:56:40.060 reputation was was your goal like you needed to have that and you needed to have the respect of

00:56:46.180 everyone around you because it very easily like you might not be able to get food from the market

00:56:51.680 because they wouldn't want to sell to you like you would not have people you would have no friends

00:56:55.760 because nobody would want to talk to you because you were deemed the outwith of society you know

00:57:00.680 and sort of honor and reputation were huge huge for centuries it was very important and now we're

00:57:08.020 just kind of like but when you come to those kind of like sexuality and lgbtq it's hard to put a

00:57:16.300 label on it because the manner in which they live their lives were so different like it's it's um

00:57:22.680 you even see it with a lot of um like trans people in history like dr james barry and it's like

00:57:29.300 would they be considered trans because we don't know their exact motivations behind it

00:57:34.180 so would they prefer to have lived their life as a woman doctor or did they want to be a male doctor

00:57:42.960 like that's that you know we don't know we cannot say one way or the other but we can use as much

00:57:48.380 of the context clues as possible to try and be respectful to the person who did exist you know

00:57:52.980 you know yeah and i think it's also um meaningful for people today who are members of the lgbtq

00:58:00.220 community to find people in the past who seem to have a similar experience to them however they

00:58:06.340 define themselves it's like i think the ladies of hland goughlin and lister like these are lesbian

00:58:12.440 icons and so to people who are like well they never said they were lesbians it's like

00:58:17.980 no, but Harold, like they were clearly wouldn't. Yeah. That's not a thing. You dead. 0.69

00:58:25.600 That's not a reason to discount the fact that clearly these women were in a,

00:58:29.560 like they ran away together twice. Like there's, they clearly have a romantic situation going on.

00:58:35.640 So this is where it's, and I'm happy. So happy to have you on the podcast as well. And my guests

00:58:39.740 from the analyst or episode two, because like, I want to lean into these, the elements of like

00:58:44.640 queer history but you have to read so much between the lines really to like put it together and i

00:58:50.340 don't yeah i don't want to like prescribe an identity onto a person but it's like well here's

00:58:55.820 how maybe this would have been accepted now and here's how people saw them then and yeah i always

00:59:02.300 think it's interesting the way that we present these stories now actually so especially when we

00:59:08.100 do it um in media um especially visual media because whenever they do like ann luster especially

00:59:14.260 they whenever they they have her in men's clothing and it's like that's not that's not

00:59:22.520 that's not quite what she did she was dressed masculine for the era but it was more but it's

00:59:29.380 like not as a man like these the ladies of ganglachlan they dressed in these slight masculine

00:59:36.620 fits but they weren't dressed as men specifically um and because the modern era because of how we

00:59:45.380 view the fashion you know we we see it in such a specific binary that we don't really recognize

00:59:52.800 that subtlety you know and so we don't really connect with it so that's why they're always

00:59:59.760 presented as even more masculine than they were you know so no that's such a good point because

01:00:06.220 like today we're in an era where like to see a woman wearing trousers is not like, Oh, shocking. 0.98

01:00:11.460 Like we're so used to that. Or like Diane Keaton or somebody who wears like a necktie or RIP Diane

01:00:16.320 Keaton, by the way. But like, so when you're putting it in a film, it's like, we have to make

01:00:20.820 clear that what this person is wearing is unusually masculine for the time. So then they turn that

01:00:26.200 into like, what if she's wearing a three P suit? Like, so it's, it's, it's complex, but it's,

01:00:32.380 it's interesting and it's beautiful. And also I love the mystique of the ladies. Cause it's like,

01:00:35.960 what did they look like? We only have descriptions of them because they refused to have portraits

01:00:39.620 done. Hang on. So 1809, Mary, Mary passed away in 1809. And so, um, Eleanor commissioned a

01:00:51.140 memorial in St. Collins cemetery. So Mary, the, the mate, Mary Carol, it's like, we love Mary

01:00:56.960 frisk. I'm sure it's long gone, but there's been other dogs. Um, Mary has been the one servant.

01:01:01.520 she was with them this whole time so the ladies commissioned this memorial called to our matchless

01:01:07.600 mary because she was it's beautiful to a servant like people didn't do that ever yeah that's it

01:01:15.900 they still remember her opening that wee window that's it so in 1829 so 20 years later eleanor

01:01:21.140 died age 89 and was buried next to mary well because the three of them lived at place neweth

01:01:27.680 for 50 years together or something like they had a real they didn't have any other servants other

01:01:33.740 than her I don't think um anyways Eleanor was buried next to Mary and then Sarah died two years

01:01:39.380 later and she was laid next to the other two so they encouraged poetry to be written about them

01:01:45.140 but they refused to pose for portraits but one of their guests and I feel like this is like me or

01:01:50.100 you Katie if we went to visit them we're like oh okay we're not allowed to draw you I'm just

01:01:54.620 going to secretly draw you so one other guest mary parker secretly drew some sketches of them

01:02:00.140 like what are you doing over there i'm just writing poetry about you don't worry about it

01:02:04.740 don't like don't like it's not time it's not time i'm still i'm still on the stage

01:02:08.400 i'm rubbing out what i said to weapon i'm not shading

01:02:10.380 so she superstitiously drew some sketches of them and then after they died

01:02:15.820 she turned these into a watercolor image of the two ladies sitting in their very full

01:02:20.460 library. So apparently, Plas Neuath was sold a year after the ladies had died, but Mary Parker

01:02:28.300 got access to it so she could sketch the library for authenticity to make sure that the background

01:02:32.460 of her picture looked good. And then this is all sort of like, this got translated to this. So she

01:02:38.180 took these sketches, made a watercolor. Then the watercolor was translated into print by Richard

01:02:42.920 James Lane. And an impression of it can be found in the Oddly End collection. So I'll put a link

01:02:49.000 in this episode to, to the print based on the sketches. So this is, they're looking at their

01:02:54.080 most Bilbo Bagginses in this, in this picture. And there's a cat. I love, I love this picture.

01:03:00.920 I just, they're so, they're just cute little lesbians, right? And their library. 0.70

01:03:07.820 Because cute lesbians in their library. And the fact that she went into there to, 1.00

01:03:11.280 to sketch the library, to make sure it was authentic. So, you know, they had like one

01:03:15.180 gazillion books but also they have whatever you know like an hourglass and like a little dog

01:03:19.740 shaped paperweight and like all these little of course they did they just seem like the dog

01:03:26.280 paperweight type people yeah not that they travel themselves i think they only ever stayed there but

01:03:31.980 they're the sort of people today who would go to a gift shop and they'd be like oh do you have

01:03:35.060 anything shaped like a dog great and they would just have a lot of knickknacks all shaped like

01:03:38.320 dogs they're such cute little people with their little cravats anyway they are adorable and i

01:03:44.340 love I love the secret portrait I just love this I just love that it's like what are you doing

01:03:50.780 nothing nothing nothing I just write in a very looping scrawl um my handwriting it's very

01:03:58.000 artistic one might say so anyway you can visit Plastneweth um it is now run as a museum

01:04:03.140 by the Denbighshire I don't know run by county council in that region of Wales you can also

01:04:13.000 visit their, their three person memorial can also be visited as well as a, as a, I think if you're

01:04:20.100 like going on a lesbian or even just like an overall queer history tour of Ireland, the UK,

01:04:26.400 like, I think, I think you're going to hit up like Ann Lister's, the church where she got married.

01:04:30.060 You're going to hit up Plas Neweth. Like, these are just where you're going. Like, this is where

01:04:33.460 you're going to see this grave. Like these, these are the sites to see. And I'm happy. I'm

01:04:37.420 actually like, this is on my itinerary now as well. I would love to go to Wales and see this house

01:04:41.840 to see how much of what they did is still there.

01:04:45.440 Do they have all the follies?

01:04:46.680 Do they have the artificial ancient ruins?

01:04:49.140 Like, I want to see all these, like, design choices.

01:04:52.040 Wouldn't that be amazing if they still had those little ruins there?

01:04:57.020 That'd be amazing.

01:04:58.380 The fake ruins.

01:05:00.100 And so at the end, so this season, because I'm doing the Regency era,

01:05:03.900 at the end of the season, we're going to choose a diamond of the season,

01:05:07.100 like they do on Bridgerton.

01:05:08.480 And so part of that decision is going to be based on the scores they get

01:05:11.580 in four categories in Katie. Um, we've done this before. If you could help me determine the scores

01:05:17.080 for the ladies collectively as one, one unit. So the first category, these are all scores

01:05:22.200 to determine everybody. This is a score out of 10. And the first category is scandalousness.

01:05:27.480 How scandalous were they? And this is interesting because they weren't at all for most of their life,

01:05:33.500 but the running away, it was very scandalous. And frankly, the whole like teacher student

01:05:38.180 relationship might have raised i feel like we're at a six for scandal you know because like there's

01:05:42.740 like a little bit and then they're just kind of there yeah so like i think that beginning stage

01:05:48.400 about i think about a six i think we're i like yeah because like it was high scandal at the

01:05:54.600 beginning and then just like decades of just domestic home of just existing just being there 1.00

01:06:03.260 yeah actual cottagecore lesbians like literal literal this is where it came from they invented 1.00

01:06:11.360 they invented the whole thing that is um maybe that's what i'm gonna call the episode um anyway 1.00

01:06:17.180 so the next category is scheminess um how schemey were they now in the beginning very with the

01:06:22.940 running away plans but also just the way that they figured out a way to live their life and not

01:06:29.040 and be able to do it by just like being so welcoming to people like having the poems

01:06:36.120 written about them like they kind of made themselves celebrities and that sort of helped

01:06:39.900 ensure that they were able to keep going because it just became these beloved fixtures

01:06:44.620 i think they were they just probably seemed quite nice to be around because there's no way you could

01:06:51.260 survive through all that and not have some bad stuff written about you so i don't think they

01:06:55.620 were necessarily schemey except for the first beginning right yeah and I'd say we're like a

01:07:02.680 three or a four on that because even their schemes weren't that schemey it was like leave and get to

01:07:06.860 port hide in a cupboard like it's not the schemes were not yeah as well sought out as one could have

01:07:14.400 yeah yeah you know exactly like low on the scheme scale climb in a window hide in a cupboard it's

01:07:20.880 Like, did you think no one would find you ever?

01:07:23.720 Like, yeah, they had schemes.

01:07:25.800 That one guy.

01:07:26.620 That one guy.

01:07:27.760 Who was that one guy?

01:07:29.340 Who was that one guy?

01:07:31.320 Okay, the next category is their significance.

01:07:33.720 And that is to history, but also to queer history.

01:07:35.840 I think this is a very high score. 0.94

01:07:38.020 Oh, we're talking a nine or a 10 for that.

01:07:40.200 I think a 10.

01:07:41.940 I think they are. 1.00

01:07:43.880 To queer history, like, they're up there.

01:07:46.960 I think because they survived.

01:07:49.500 and not only just survived but they lived a life together that they wanted and i think it's so rare

01:07:56.100 to see that like throughout throughout history that i think they deserve that high scale because

01:08:01.900 yeah are cottagecore lesbians 10 out of 10 i think absolutely i think so there's um in the

01:08:09.120 there's a new season of bridgerton coming up speaking of the regency era and so in the previous 0.97

01:08:14.380 season the way your eyes roll whenever you say Bridgerton I'm I'm excited I'm I'm excited for

01:08:21.540 the tie-in that Bridgerton brings to my book and to this series of the podcast but I'm rolling my

01:08:27.320 eyes at the Bridgerton fans who were upset that they were foreshadowing there's clearly going to

01:08:32.080 be a lesbian plot line coming up in a subsequent season I don't think it's in this season probably

01:08:37.700 it might be in the next one in the books there was a love story that was like a man and a woman

01:08:41.820 and on the tv show they've changed the man character to a woman and some people were

01:08:46.320 freaking out about it where it's just like first of all like it's bridgerton like this is not

01:08:50.080 historical accuracy but also people like there wasn't lesbians in the regency and that's part

01:08:54.620 of where i i wanted it was really important to me to do these episodes early on to be like there

01:08:58.080 weren't lesbians in the past i was like what are you talking about what what yeah like and lister

01:09:05.380 like and every one of her partners the ladies of hlenn gochlin but also i think in terms of like 1.00

01:09:11.180 the bridgerton thing like these were like from upper class families like eleanor and sarah like

01:09:17.460 they it's it's not like this is an example of how people from like elite society could live in this

01:09:25.040 way and it would be okay and their families wouldn't disown them like this like to anyone

01:09:29.280 who's like how dare bridgerton go woke or whatever it's like um there's enormous amounts of precedent

01:09:35.980 actually so and that's part of where like the significant score of 10 like i just think to

01:09:40.340 have them there as an example of historical queer thriving happy life is their little follies

01:09:48.960 and their dogs just yeah and they're like they're very full library which i respect so much well

01:09:57.240 because they were both big nerds to begin with i feel like that's probably where they first

01:10:00.260 connected like they just love reading they love books they love dogs they love landscaping like

01:10:07.540 i love that they're so cute um they probably cut each other's hair or maybe mary cut their hair

01:10:15.320 um so the last category she only knew how to do one style 1.00

01:10:20.600 that's why it was split in the middle and powder they were like that'll do 1.00

01:10:27.980 has people started yes still a look yeah so they have um the last category is what i call the sexism

01:10:36.100 bonus and this is where i say i give bonus points to people who maybe could have accomplished more

01:10:40.200 had they not been living under the patriarchy but i think these two like other than the beginning

01:10:44.900 of their life like it didn't it's not a high score like i think they found ways to live their truth 0.92

01:10:52.280 within the confines of patriarchal society yeah i mean because what they needed as women is they 1.00

01:10:57.580 needed the the money from their families they still needed to be respectable within that patriarchal

01:11:03.720 society which is why they never went we're lesbians they're just like we we love each other

01:11:10.780 as people love but even even that's something we actually forget about today is that even back then

01:11:16.620 like same-sex friendships you would still say they would still talk about love and how they

01:11:21.000 loved each other and that was a very a very normal normal thing so it's it so because that

01:11:28.460 president was already there it's not exactly being like scandal shock and horror so it did

01:11:33.520 make them easier for them in a sense but you know being uh a spinster was typically seen as an odd

01:11:42.940 thing anyway but they managed to thrive one way or the other so that's the thing they yeah they

01:11:49.700 you know for sure like they needed their the support of their male relatives because you know 0.95

01:11:54.140 women couldn't whatever own property and things like that but they made it work but they did

01:11:59.840 still need that help so i'm gonna i don't i feel this is like a two or a three or something yeah

01:12:04.440 it's fairly low on that scale fairly low i think so let me see so this is a 20 23 out of 40 is their

01:12:13.220 total score and i do want to say in terms of this series and choosing the diamond of the season so

01:12:17.980 like on dancing with the stars strictly come dancing there's a judges score but there's going

01:12:22.680 it'll also be the audience score so everybody's coming into this with our judges score and then

01:12:26.540 later the listeners can we'll vote on who is i would love it if the ladies of glenn goughlin

01:12:31.600 win diamond of the season i think don't show up to that ball in their cravats like a frilled shirt 1.00

01:12:39.720 and a cravat the powdered bowl cut hair

01:12:43.980 oh my gosh i i it's just so funny that ann lister was like oh what a strange outfit they're wearing 1.00

01:12:55.620 like bitch what are you wearing like what are you talking about like honey no i've seen your 0.99

01:13:00.940 hair like you had portraits taken and your hair is bananas and you're like oh look at them with 1.00

01:13:08.180 her powdered hair, like, Oh, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to get some, um, well, firstly,

01:13:13.200 my cat is trying to jump on the keyboard. So I'm keeping her at bay. Secondly, I'm trying to find

01:13:18.020 some notable people who have a similar score to let you know. Jane Austen has a 22 ladies of

01:13:23.680 Helen Goughlin 23. So this is, this is the Regency neighborhood. Hepburn the cat. 40 out of 40 for

01:13:31.840 you, my darling. But yeah, so that, cause also like similarly, Jane Austen found ways to thrive

01:13:37.120 in a patriarchal society. And she lived a pretty low key life. I do not know if Jane Austen ever 1.00

01:13:44.140 wrote about the ladies of Glenn Goughlin, but I'm sure she would have known about them because

01:13:47.680 everybody did. So Katie, thank you so much. I could not truly could not have done this without

01:13:54.000 you. And I couldn't think of a better topic to talk about with you. And can you let everybody

01:13:58.200 know how, if, if there's one person listening, who doesn't know who you are and where to find

01:14:02.820 you on the internet, where can they find you and listen to your podcast and watch your videos and

01:14:06.760 things uh you can find me i'm just watching a cat go across the screen um you can find me on

01:14:13.500 most of the social medias i'm on facebook instagram other places tiktok um so on tiktok

01:14:21.840 and facebook i'm still in as who did what now pod but on instagram and threads i am under my actual

01:14:28.740 name katie charlwood uh you can also find my podcast uh who did what now the history podcast

01:14:34.900 that is not your history class on every major podcasting app that is not YouTube so that's

01:14:42.420 where you can find me and they can also find you in person doing live shows every now and then

01:14:47.160 and where can they find that information oh so that is on my website hoodedwhatnowpod.com

01:14:52.940 so there is currently a little European um I say European it's basically currently uh

01:14:59.700 the uk and ireland at the moment while i'm getting things together and next year we're

01:15:05.500 hoping to do i say we um as if i'm not the only person involved in this um a special tour called

01:15:12.100 oops i'm in canada where i'm gonna try and find lots of small venues i've got a few already on a

01:15:19.700 list i have a spreadsheet it's very organized and it's basically run about before winter sets in

01:15:25.900 because I don't need to be that level of cold because Canada, no, I love you, but I, I'm,

01:15:30.780 I'm already bad. I will say as a person in Canada, um, while there is enthusiasm to go to live

01:15:36.020 events in the winter, we do, we get like the ladies and we just stay in our houses and just

01:15:41.440 think about interior design for the cold. If you want audiences. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think

01:15:48.320 I'm going to go when it's not too cold. Um, that's my goal. So, um, if I don't get a, if I don't get

01:15:54.520 into fully fruition by the end of the end of next year it will be the beginning of the following

01:16:00.020 here but the plans are being laid for um ace and it's literally all these small venues and these

01:16:07.620 sort of smaller towns not um a few border towns as well for close to the us so that it's basically

01:16:14.120 i'm trying to get to you know the places where people normally have to travel out of to get to

01:16:21.380 somewhere just because i think it's i think it's more fun to have a lot of these small little

01:16:27.080 tours over like like 10 days for a certain region and then i'll be gone for another two weeks then

01:16:34.260 i'll come back for another two weeks it's going to be a fun it's going to be a fun one i'm going

01:16:38.620 to be very tired but i've heard there's good food in canada so i'm very happy there is very good

01:16:44.580 food in canada and i have to imagine that we'll be able to meet up at one of these stops presumably

01:16:50.300 um and hopefully hopefully um next year maybe we can have our long-awaited carolina brunswick pub

01:16:58.200 carolina brunswick live episode it's great because i i do have contacts for the carolina

01:17:04.100 brunswick so i mean it's happening it's just like when it's just like when i just need to confirm

01:17:10.320 when my book is being published there and then and then we can proceed but yeah i that's the

01:17:17.880 thing too i've been coming across lord byron everyone has him as a dinner guest but carolina

01:17:22.440 brunswick's husband george everybody everybody was going to brighton to hang out with him like

01:17:27.140 that was just it's like you had byron at your dinner then you go to brighton to hang out with

01:17:31.160 this guy and these two men were just like terrorizing the regency and no wonder the

01:17:36.360 ladies of glen goughlin are like we're never leaving our little our little we're happy here 0.62

01:17:41.940 there's gross men everywhere and we don't like that no no no I think Hepburn thinks it's time

01:17:49.800 for me to go so I will just let listeners know that you can follow me on social media at vulgar

01:17:54.700 street pod everywhere and you can find out about my book rebel of the regency the scandalous saga

01:17:59.680 of Carolina Brunswick Britain's uncrowned queen all the information is at rebeloftheregency.com

01:18:05.180 and everybody should pre-order it and it's coming out in North America in February and it's coming

01:18:09.680 in the UK and Ireland question mark. Hopefully then too. I don't know. But anyway, um, thank you

01:18:16.460 so much. I'm super appreciate this. Couldn't have done it without you. Um, next time I need some

01:18:21.160 words pronounced. I know who to, I know who to ask. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

01:18:28.580 Folger History is researched, scripted, and hosted by Anne Foster. Editor is Christina

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Vulgar History - November 26, 2025

Regency Era Cottagecore Lesbians： The Ladies of Llangollen

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