Vulgar History - Regency Era It Girl Emma Hamilton (part two)

00:00:00.000 Hello, and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast.

00:00:14.340 My name is Anne Foster. And if you're watching this on video on Patreon, this is my cat Hepburn.

00:00:19.240 She is sitting directly in front of me. And this is our Regency era season. We're talking about

00:00:24.940 stuff that happened mostly in england in the late 1700s early 1800s this is also known as the

00:00:30.700 napoleonic era um when we're going to get into some of that this week in our discussion of emma

00:00:35.500 hamilton part two i would recommend part one if you haven't already heard it is a lot happening

00:00:42.060 yeah sort of foundational yeah if you didn't hear part one you just be like oh here's this fancy

00:00:47.600 lady who's the wife of an ambassador i i assume there's nothing interesting in her life before 0.98

00:00:51.880 this point. Listen to part one. She had quite a journey getting to this point. I'm joined by

00:00:56.820 Amanda Matta, royal commentator, art history expert. You love drama. You love a...

00:01:03.880 I love drama. I love historical drama, modern drama. If someone's wearing a crown and being

00:01:09.580 messy, like I will be there. You can find me in the background of the picture.

00:01:13.900 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And this is, this is a story with so much drama because we're getting

00:01:18.400 into Emma Hamilton part two. So again, I mean, you know, here's what you missed on

00:01:22.400 vulgar history. Like Emma Hamilton was born to a blacksmith 0.95

00:01:26.360 who was maybe murdered by his wife. She was

00:01:30.300 a maid. She hated it with her friend Jane, who's going to come back 1.00

00:01:34.420 in this episode. She did some sex work. She was a goddess 1.00

00:01:38.460 at the Temple of Health and Hymen. She 1.00

00:01:42.320 was sex trafficked a few times. She had a daughter

00:01:46.320 that she was forced to abandon. And now she's in Naples, married to this diplomat. She is

00:01:54.840 Lady Hamilton. And Amanda, can you explain what's happening in Naples politically?

00:02:01.000 No, but I can try. Okay. So yes, she's in Naples. She's gotten the My Fair Lady treatment. She's

00:02:08.000 like a society hostess. She's also friends with Maria Carolina, who is the queen of Naples, 0.66

00:02:14.180 also the sister to Marie Antoinette. So the political drama that's about to unfold kind

00:02:22.140 of directly relates to that because Maria Carolina is so understandably angry and upset when her

00:02:31.020 sister is beheaded in the French Revolution. The queen, like Maria Carolina goes very anti-French,

00:02:37.080 like it's very US freedom fries if you were around for that era in our history when we like

00:02:43.260 just boycotted all things French. So does Maria Carolina. She is very paranoid of like French 0.90

00:02:50.180 agents who have declared war, like France has declared war on Austria and then Britain declares

00:02:57.560 war on France. So Maria Carolina is like trying to figure out because she's actually the one

00:03:02.980 pulling the strings. I should also say in Naples, her husband, King Ferdinand, famously, yeah.

00:03:10.540 Yeah. So even Napoleon at one point says of Maria Carolina that she is the only man in Naples. And like, these are enemies, France and Naples enemies. So they join, Naples joins what's called the first coalition against France. Anyone remotely suspected of like French sympathy is persecuted. Maria Carolina is very paranoid about French agents in Naples.

00:03:36.880 She's like switching around the family's apartments in the palace in Naples, like on a daily basis.

00:03:43.800 So Emma is her bestie, as we discussed in the first part.

00:03:46.820 So she's presumably there, at least like aware of all of this thought process,

00:03:51.800 maybe influencing the decisions that the queen is making, who again is the one who really has power here. 1.00

00:03:58.840 So Maria Carolina, she wants to escalate and go to war with France, 1.00

00:04:03.860 which leads to what I called in the first part a reverse revolution so she like gets her husband

00:04:12.280 to go to war with France in 1798 so Naples is at war with France they make a failed attempt to

00:04:18.880 march to Rome and he the king finds out the only people in his country Naples who are willing to

00:04:24.560 support the French restoring the monarchy which is like their goal are the peasants for some reason

00:04:30.660 the educated middle class and the aristocrats in Naples are more fond of the idea of like France

00:04:37.540 being a republic. And the king and queen of Naples are like, no, no, no, like we did this

00:04:41.880 because we like aristocrats and we like monarchy. So the king and queen in Naples find themselves

00:04:47.440 like being revolted against by not the peasants, not the working class, but by the upper classes,

00:04:53.920 which is like the worst case scenario and very confusing for historians reading into it. But so

00:05:00.480 there's like a very short civil war, literally it's like six months where the Jacobin and

00:05:05.740 Republican coalitions in Naples are like running rampant. Maria Carolina goes into hiding with the

00:05:13.400 royal family. Presumably again, Emma Hamilton is there with them. Um, but this takes us a little

00:05:18.660 bit farther into her future. We need to back up a bit to talk about what Emma is up to before

00:05:24.480 this mini revolution, but like, that's, what's going on in the background for her.

00:05:28.880 And so this is like suddenly just Emma's entire life was in the wake of various wars,

00:05:35.140 basically. Yeah. You got sort of the French Revolution era wars. It's going to lead into

00:05:39.680 like the Napoleonic Wars. Like she's, this is just the backdrop of her entire life.

00:05:45.340 She's like, yeah, another revolution. Fine. Yeah. So we're getting into, I don't know,

00:05:50.400 what year are you up to? So that would take us up to about 1799, which is the year after she

00:05:57.580 reconnects with the guy we dropped at the end of last episode, Horatio Nelson.

00:06:02.500 So Horatio Nelson comes to Naples. Now I just want to mention during, well, it's been a week

00:06:08.300 for all of you, but for us, we just took a little break between part one and part two.

00:06:11.400 And I was like, let's just brush up on my Horatio Nelson knowledge. And so I looked at

00:06:15.340 the Wikipedia page, which as of when I read it, didn't even have a section for personal life.

00:06:19.880 It's all just like war, war, war, battle, battle, battle. It's like, he's got such a

00:06:23.400 brilliant mind listeners we're not going to talk about any of that he actually wasn't always

00:06:27.920 recognized as a military genius like he wasn't a general well he was like an admiral towards the

00:06:32.920 end but he sometimes like had to disregard direct orders from his senior officers and like that was

00:06:39.220 part of why he was such a romantic kind of lord byron-esque hero yeah he had some military

00:06:46.600 victories and made him very famous so he and emma met each other when he was coming it was like

00:06:52.520 someone else was supposed to be in charge of these ships going to naples but then they're like uh no

00:06:56.700 let's just send this guy instead like he was not yet a hero and so she met him and she was like

00:07:00.760 could england like side with naples and our various wars like we need your help you know she's doing

00:07:06.140 her like soft diplomacy um herself at him but she's also like this guy's kind of kind of like

00:07:11.480 this guy and the thing with nelson too is he becomes very successful in a military way but

00:07:18.020 he's from humble origins too so i feel like yes emma is like meetings she's had so much so much

00:07:23.740 of her life has been around these like upper class people where she knows how to how to hang

00:07:27.760 out with them but like this is someone she could probably talk to in a more genuine way like because

00:07:31.240 he's from like humble roots like her yeah i know nelson he had to like scrape to get where he

00:07:37.100 eventually found himself like for a long time and especially in his marriage he he was married

00:07:43.380 he and his wife, they were very frustrated. Like he wasn't making money. He wasn't getting

00:07:48.980 any command positions for a long time in his military career. So eventually he kind of similar

00:07:54.760 to what Napoleon's doing, but he's British, Nelson. He goes to the Mediterranean. He helps

00:08:00.420 to capture Corsica. He's in Tenerife where he loses his right arm in 1797. And also he gets

00:08:07.220 shrapnel in his eye so he one of his eyes is non-functioning and like when like anyone I

00:08:14.380 presume the shrapnel is stays in his eye because like when he's stressed or like it would like

00:08:19.160 inflame and like cause him a lot of pain and he would use that I did look like his he has like a

00:08:24.620 little brief BBC biography that is kind of useful for getting broad strokes yeah apparently he once

00:08:30.280 ignored orders to withdraw from action by putting his telescope to his blind eye and claiming he

00:08:37.260 didn't actually see the signal so like oops we kept fighting but like because he was such a

00:08:42.740 great military commander like he could get away with it so he's like short missing an eye missing

00:08:50.180 an arm i don't think he has a lot of teeth either pretty sure he doesn't so he's not who you think

00:08:56.300 of as a heartthrob but because of his military success he becomes a heartthrob like people have

00:09:02.240 like nelson posters nelson you know like printed on their mugs and their plates right next to their

00:09:07.960 emma poster poster and another nelson poster so when nelson meets emma everyone's like yeah

00:09:13.660 you know these two are finally together it's and it's tom holland and zendaya except tom holland

00:09:20.920 is probably way more attractive yes yeah well actually yeah because emma is also tall so

00:09:25.820 they meet each other and like all of society is like shipping this even before the two of them

00:09:30.860 become lovers because it's just like this is the man of the hour this is the women of the hour

00:09:34.580 they've met each other and in fact they do really like each other and part of it is he shows up and

00:09:40.120 he is ill from something i don't know dysentery or something she like personally nurses him back

00:09:46.000 to health of course she does so the thing with nelson there's a lot of things with nelson but

00:09:51.960 One of them is that he falls in love very easily.

00:09:54.680 He is a really romantic guy.

00:09:57.700 He has this wife, Fanny, but they don't, almost right away, they don't get along with each

00:10:01.880 other.

00:10:02.080 He married her.

00:10:02.720 She was like a heiress from the Caribbean.

00:10:05.020 Listen back to my episode about the heiresses from the Caribbean to learn more about that

00:10:10.120 part of this history.

00:10:11.760 He thought, and she sort of portrayed herself as being wealthy to kind of convince him to

00:10:17.440 marry her.

00:10:17.940 And then he married her and turns out she's not wealthy.

00:10:19.840 and she had she has like a son he's like a teenage son at this point who's sort of like on the ships

00:10:26.560 with nelson his name is josiah and he's just not into it much like emma was not into being a maid

00:10:31.320 josiah is not into being uh sailor guy they do not have any further children i think probably

00:10:38.980 something like i think it was a traumatic birth with josiah so fanny is not able to have more

00:10:43.360 children nelson really wants children he wants it's like he wants to be a wife guy he wants to

00:10:49.340 be a girl dad, but he's not getting that from his wife. And he just, he said like lots of men in this

00:10:54.320 time, lots of affairs with lots of people. He meets Emma and he's just like, like if your guy

00:10:59.080 falls easily and you're meeting like the most beautiful girl in the world and she's nursing

00:11:02.740 you back to health, like, of course he falls for her. Like, and to the point where he writes back

00:11:07.220 to Fanny, his wife, like talking about Emma and like how remarkable she is, how talented she is.

00:11:12.940 So like rub it in. Like I would prefer you just abandon your wife and let her get on with her

00:11:17.260 life but that's not what he does and we will see that like gets messy it gets really messy and like 0.70

00:11:22.360 honestly justice for fanny nelson justice for fanny yeah because he he tries at one point to

00:11:28.820 divorce her but the only way and i talk about this in my book rebel of the regency the scandal

00:11:32.840 because her husband tries to divorce her and the only way that you can get a divorce it's really

00:11:39.940 complicated in this era to get a divorce and it only happens if you can prove that the wife has

00:11:45.360 been unfaithful um if the marriage was not consummated like that's kind of it and fanny

00:11:51.360 is like the marriage is consummated i've not been unfaithful like come at me like you can't divorce

00:11:56.760 me like whatever so fanny is like holding her own and i respect it comma and emma also has from her

00:12:04.060 like if we're talking about like what is it like the mother wound like nelson and emma are both

00:12:09.420 like they become extremely codependent on each other and i think both of them have this like

00:12:13.920 bottomless need for love that is never going to be fulfilled because of their own psychological

00:12:18.620 problems so they just like trauma bot like they're just like this is happening like but also Emma has

00:12:26.940 all these skills that are useful for him like Nelson does not speak any language other than

00:12:30.580 English Emma speaks every language um she also she's really politically agile and knowledgeable

00:12:36.900 in a way that he's not so she kind of becomes his like helper his translator yeah his secretary

00:12:43.520 like right-hand woman kind of if you're thinking of like Hamilton Hamilton being George Washington's 0.87

00:12:49.340 right-hand man it's like kind of the same except they're all so fucking yeah so she becomes like

00:12:54.680 very instrumental in his success and in his career kind of helping him extend his career 0.67

00:13:01.800 she's also still married to Sir William who at this point is like in his 60s I think and his

00:13:07.280 health yeah great yeah he would be in his late 60s and if we're talking about 1798 99 Emma is 0.56

00:13:13.180 finally in her 30s so she's finally like a full adult which is great for her she's got a frontal

00:13:18.880 lobe like things are happening so and she's just like i'm into this guy lord nelson and this is

00:13:24.300 where i just want to mention i was like wow like this story it's such a saga i'm like there must

00:13:29.200 be a hundred movies about it and there hasn't been any recently and that is surprising to me

00:13:33.320 because the british love to do stories about the british being great um but you know who who she's 0.99

00:13:41.120 she's a bit Emma Hamilton. She's a bit Haley Steinfeld. I just thought she's very like tall, 0.98

00:13:47.200 dark hair, really pretty. Um, and she can, but also really smart and like, I can picture Haley 1.00

00:13:53.820 Steinfeld doing the attitudes, you know, you know what else I was thinking, you know, did you see

00:13:58.000 the new Wuthering Heights movie adaptation? No, but I'm, I'm very aware of it. Okay. So if you

00:14:02.880 like some of the reviews talk about the actress who plays Nellie, who is like a servant, she ends

00:14:07.640 up stealing like all the scenes she's in and I was just thinking how much more interesting would

00:14:11.300 it be if Emerald Fennell wanted to tell this version of Wuthering Heights do it through like

00:14:15.800 Nellie's perspective I would love to see this story through the perspective of Emma's mom so 0.77

00:14:22.520 like start with her maybe murdering her husband and like that's crazy on its own but then your

00:14:27.440 daughter grows up to become this political go-between societal muse it girl like all of

00:14:35.000 these things. And you're just, you're just a lady who like was married to a blacksmith 1.00

00:14:39.440 and maybe killed him. And this is your child. No, it's, it's really interesting. It's like, 0.98

00:14:45.240 he's like with so many celebrities, you know, like if you remove all the Nepo babies from 1.00

00:14:49.700 the discourse, it's just like someone who becomes famous, like Glenn Powell. It's like, 1.00

00:14:53.420 and his mom is just like, I'm just a mom. And like a Donna, Donna Kelsey now gets to hang

00:14:57.960 out with Taylor Swift and like is on the traitors. I don't know. No, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Emma's

00:15:04.220 mom is like the donna kelsey of the situation she's just like okay i'm here like because she's

00:15:08.480 right there with her all the time yeah yes so so these two like have an affair and sir william is

00:15:14.200 kind of like okay i guess like he's fine he's just like that makes sense you know if that makes you

00:15:19.480 happy emma cool that's fine um and then uh the revolution the revolutionary uprising happens

00:15:27.220 and the royal family has to flee to sicily and this is i don't know how much you have about emma's

00:15:32.940 involvement but she's so it's kind of like what you're outlining you know tensions are high the

00:15:40.180 royal family is going to need to flee and it would have been suspicious if nelson or if sir william

00:15:46.100 were seen coming or going from the palace but emma it's like well she's just a woman so she's

00:15:50.220 the queen yes and the queen is kind of who's in charge of all this anyway so emma becomes kind

00:15:55.460 of crucial like coming and going and planning this escape like not planning it but like making

00:16:00.920 sure that it happens like passing along the messages and arranging like this ship has to be

00:16:04.680 here and like it's a real um flight to varen party bus situation yes because maria carolina is like 0.88

00:16:11.920 we need to flee but i need to take all of my jewels i need to take all of my furniture like

00:16:16.700 can we move more of my jewels my whole royal house of coins it's just like the amount of

00:16:22.340 ships they need it's like ma'am flee and she's just like yeah but also i need these jewels and

00:16:28.340 also my crowns. And also I can't be without this. It's just like, so Emma is just helping out.

00:16:35.540 Well, and like I mentioned, it's a weird revolution. It's also short-lived. So maybe

00:16:40.340 the sense of urgency that she didn't have was like a symptom of this, this, they rename Naples,

00:16:47.180 the rebels do the Parthenopean Republic. It's named that for a former like ancient Greek city.

00:16:53.020 And remember these rebels revolutionaries are upper middle-class to aristocrats.

00:16:58.340 But like the new Republic exists only because the French military is also in the area.

00:17:04.520 So that's why the British diplomat and Sir Nelson or Lord Nelson cannot be seen to like

00:17:10.660 be helping out the Royal family in this case, because that Britain and France already not

00:17:14.980 getting along.

00:17:15.600 They super don't want to be fighting also in Naples.

00:17:19.240 So like the English fleet was still supplying the Royal family with weapons, but we had

00:17:23.760 to keep it like on the DL.

00:17:25.340 and like Nelson is the compromise almost like he is there because that's kind of where he landed

00:17:32.860 after his military victories and it's just kind of him there's some plausible deniability there

00:17:38.320 so the more interesting thing though to the British public is well Emma and Lord Nelson

00:17:44.740 are hooking up right like that's all they kind of want to talk about so when they hear about

00:17:49.420 this military conflict of course it immediately becomes well obviously Emma Hamilton persuaded

00:17:55.120 Lord Nelson to intervene and like get Britain involved in this military conflict so she's kind

00:18:01.560 of painted as like pulling the strings here I guess in a similar way to her bestie Queen Maria

00:18:06.620 Carolina or Queen Maria Carolina too just just for the record throughout everything we've talked

00:18:11.240 about throughout her whole life she is never not pregnant she's popping out babies she's having

00:18:16.600 babies like they're fleeing and she like has just had a baby like doesn't one of her kids die on the

00:18:23.760 ship as they're fleeing so they move the royal household the royal court to palermo in sicily

00:18:30.300 and i think one of i don't remember which one but one of maria carolina's children

00:18:34.640 like dies in emma's arms yeah so what happens is it's i forget the name of the son as well

00:18:39.620 there's a lot of sons but so this was a son who maria carolina had had around the baby was born

00:18:44.660 around the same time marie antoinette news of her execution came out and maria carolina was so

00:18:49.200 overwhelmed by that like she couldn't care for this child so emma almost like fostered the child

00:18:54.680 so like emma was like there with the baby so this was like emma's special sort of i don't know if

00:19:01.140 it was technically her god child but this was like now you know years have passed so it's like

00:19:05.020 a young child but he's got you know lung issues and then the child dies while they're on the escape

00:19:09.480 in emma's arms yeah yeah so it's like a lot for her it's a lot for everybody there's you know

00:19:15.320 they're escaping and i'm like you know it's like why are you bringing so much stuff with you but

00:19:18.640 it's like a legit traumatizing experience for everybody to be yes and like I think also for

00:19:23.880 Maria Carolina it's like she her sister like kudos to her because she saw like what happened

00:19:29.160 with Marie Antoinette and her husband where the rebels were coming and they refused to leave and 0.99

00:19:33.560 then they were taken to jail and killed and Maria Carolina is just like fuck that I'm fleeing like 0.97

00:19:38.100 no one's gonna get like she kept switching room to room she's like they're never gonna find me 0.99

00:19:41.420 I'll be in a different room like she's understandably preparing for the worst because

00:19:46.200 she's seen this happen to her sister. So she's, she's going through it. Everyone's going through

00:19:51.780 it. And Emma is there for her and she's instrumental in this escape. And what I want

00:19:56.820 to mention is that Cerulean also there. Cerulean is sending letters back to England explaining what

00:20:02.360 happened, but he never mentions how involved Emma was or what she did, which is kind of cool for

00:20:08.120 later on when Emma is like, Hey, can I get some pension or money for my like services to the

00:20:13.380 crown and they're like, we don't know about any services to the crown. It seemed like he did

00:20:17.960 everything. Sure. And we were rooting for you, Sir William, but she also, she does get some

00:20:24.800 recognition from Emperor Paul, the first of Russia. Did you see this? So while the Royal

00:20:31.780 family in Naples, well, has been evacuated to Sicily, I guess they're dealing with their own

00:20:37.720 stuff. So Emma is kind of the one again, left to deal with other matters that come up during this

00:20:43.000 reverse revolution. So the island of Malta is like being left to starve. I think there's a

00:20:49.060 military blockade there being targeted by the French as well. And Nelson tries and fails to

00:20:55.140 persuade the king to allow the British to like break the blockade, send in supplies. But Emma

00:21:01.600 was able to like get supplies to the island of Malta. And she even convinced Maria Carolina to

00:21:07.600 donate 10 000 pounds so she's eventually awarded the cross of saint john or the maltese cross by

00:21:13.960 emperor paul of russia and she notes that i'm the first english woman to ever get it and it made her

00:21:20.440 a dame of the order of malta in her own right so this is like the first time she's gotten an honor

00:21:25.000 yeah based on her own merit and she gets her own coat of arms it's very cool hamilton because she

00:21:30.480 married a lord but now she herself is dame uh she used dame when she was behaved when she was just 0.61

00:21:36.380 behaving at her very grandest. So she went from December teenage sex worker living on the street 1.00

00:21:45.820 to a dame. It's very cool. She gets her own coat of arms. It was noted, I think it was on Wikipedia, 1.00

00:21:53.380 it was noted that the coat of arms puzzled heraldic scholars for a long time who didn't

00:21:59.280 know about her Maltese cross because it has the Maltese cross on it. And they're like,

00:22:03.520 why is this on emma hamilton's coat of arms like the lions we get there's three red lions and

00:22:08.380 that's like that's that we get because her surname was lion when she was born but they didn't know

00:22:14.120 for a long time that she had the order of malta which confuses me but we know interesting okay

00:22:20.240 well and i'm confused they didn't know that because she wore it every day she it was just um

00:22:26.180 when i was looking up information about her there was from a few years ago another bee's auction it

00:22:30.640 was one of her necklaces part of it has a fascinating where the order of malta would

00:22:34.740 have hung like she just attached it to her necklaces she loves it constantly it's i don't

00:22:39.680 know for listeners who heard the episode we did about sarah biffin the disabled painter she won

00:22:45.080 a medal for for be excellence in painting and she wore it every day of her life she's like that's me

00:22:49.940 i won this medal like i'm just wearing it every day like you know and i support that and so she

00:22:55.740 this became this becomes a thing when eventually they're going to be back in england and everybody

00:23:00.540 everybody like emma hamilton shows up and everyone wants to dress this is like so many of these

00:23:05.580 things in this era it's like we want to dress a la hamilton so people are wearing dresses that

00:23:09.780 look like her dresses they're doing their hair like her she shows up on this cross people start

00:23:13.420 wearing crosses like people start wearing like fake or malta crosses because including carolina

00:23:19.860 brunswick the princess of wales she of course she did she she's never one to pass up a fashion 0.99

00:23:25.260 moment. So I just love that Emma Hamilton. Yeah. If she lived in 2008, she would never have passed

00:23:31.140 a Charming Charlie's or a Claire's without going in. Like, I love this for her. Yeah. I love,

00:23:36.020 I love that. That's what's funny to me. I'm just like, they didn't know that she had this cross.

00:23:39.200 She, she's painted wearing it. Like everyone, like caricatures, like she every day.

00:23:48.260 This is me and I want this and I'm a dame and just like, don't even forget it. Like, I love it.

00:23:53.420 Nope. The heraldic scholars were puzzled by the Maltese cross. I guess after a while it kind of

00:23:59.020 fell off. It reminds me, well, I don't even know what would be the similar thing, but it's like

00:24:03.180 if Michael B. Jordan put his Academy Award on a chain and just wore it every day to be like,

00:24:07.560 I'm an Academy Award actor, Michael B. Jordan. Who is it? Is it Kate Winslet that has hers in

00:24:12.560 the bathroom so that her guests can hold it in the mirror while they're in there?

00:24:18.560 that's a really good idea i love that yeah but yeah so she just like just in terms of so in 0.99

00:24:24.560 terms of cross so let me get back to england which spoiler they will in a second so cheap 1.00

00:24:28.960 guilt versions of the cross were sold throughout england the very wealthiest ladies had their own 0.95

00:24:32.780 made of diamonds caroline princess of wales um wore a white dress with a maltese cross brooch

00:24:38.280 uh prinny gave a diamond maltese cross to his youngest sister amelia and so fanny uh fanny

00:24:47.540 nelson imagine imagine this is like when ariana grande got together with that guy spongebob

00:24:56.600 and he had um and he left his wife for ariana grande and then like the relentless wicked press

00:25:03.340 i was just like this woman yeah you gotta see it everywhere and you're going into like starbucks

00:25:08.760 you're going to everywhere and it's just like wicked wicked ariana grande and it's like your

00:25:12.640 husband left you for her and she's everywhere so it's like going through that because everyone is

00:25:16.560 dressing like emma hamilton the woman who's been left before and like everyone and everyone's got

00:25:22.640 posters of emma hamilton people start because nelson is this hero and emma is this like icon

00:25:29.380 so like now there's posters of like their faces together you can get like you know a plate with

00:25:34.280 their faces together like everyone is just like the two of them together is everyone like again

00:25:39.500 justice for fanny like my gosh yeah well and you know she would have had some moments of vindication

00:25:45.680 because when this revolution wraps up, again, I cannot stress enough, it took six months. This 0.95

00:25:51.760 new republic was established in January 1799. On June 30th, the last stronghold for the Jacobins

00:25:59.760 in Naples fell and surrendered. That July, King Ferdinand re-entered Naples and had Nelson

00:26:07.860 actually oversee the execution of 120 political prisoners which was seen as like really ruthless

00:26:17.100 back in london there were again rumors that emma was the one encouraging this um or at least like 0.93

00:26:25.600 acting out the queen's like vengeance because remember marie carolina got into this because

00:26:31.440 she's angry and sad that her sister, Marie Antoinette, has been beheaded by the French.

00:26:37.500 So you have 120 executed, over 500 more are imprisoned, 288 deported, and 67 people are

00:26:45.660 exiled. I don't know what deported versus exiled meant at this time, but those are the stats.

00:26:50.940 So there's some...

00:26:52.400 Like, as though Emma is this kind of like Lady Macbeth.

00:26:55.940 Like whispering in the ear of Nelson, like telling him...

00:26:59.060 Nelson does what Nelson does.

00:27:01.440 like this is what I've learned about him from this biography like no one no one puts tells

00:27:06.100 Nelson what to do like yeah yeah he can do what he's gonna do I have a quote actually you mentioned

00:27:10.560 about Maria Carolina like this is all her vengeance so um so after Marie Antoinette her

00:27:17.220 sister was um executed so she was like beyond like she was so upset about it she she wrote

00:27:24.880 she had a portrait of Marie Antoinette in her study and she wrote on it I shall pursue revenge

00:27:30.680 until the grave oh my god like batman and like lipstick or something probably yes like she's

00:27:38.280 like and she did well that sucks because maria carolina's grandchild marie louise vastria um

00:27:45.780 later marries napoleon so yeah yeah yikes we'll have to revisit i do think and you suggested this

00:27:53.680 and i think at some point i'm gonna do a maria carolina episode because she's truly the heir to

00:27:58.580 maria theresa like this is the daughter yes absolutely absolutely to point out so but for

00:28:05.560 now they they escape um with with all their stuff although actually no the royal family escapes with

00:28:12.820 all their stuff sir william and emma do not bring their stuff with them which becomes an issue

00:28:18.400 later on because so i haven't mentioned this before but sir william not good with money

00:28:23.100 sir william like he's this diplomat and so you have to spend a certain like georgiana did

00:28:28.160 like you have to spend a certain amount of appearances at a third level and then emma

00:28:32.860 yeah also has to have like enough you know she's the bestie of the queen she has to have all these

00:28:36.820 dresses so they're spending a lot of money and sir william just assumes he's going to be repaid

00:28:41.460 by the english government for his services to the crown so he's spending assuming he's gonna

00:28:46.980 get money that also kind of makes sense as to why he was like not only tolerant but encouraging of

00:28:53.640 emma and nelson having an affair because like here's another guy that can start paying for her

00:28:58.520 dresses you know i don't know that's literally what happens when they become um lovers nelson

00:29:05.360 starts covering emma's costs which is how you know sir william knew about it and yeah with it

00:29:10.700 but you're right you're right yeah that's saves them a bit of money this is just less stuff for

00:29:15.820 them to be able to sell if they are in debt later which i'm foreshadowing heavily so they uh they

00:29:25.720 escape and then nelson was recalled to london so sir william had been asking for a while like can i

00:29:32.040 retire he's like in his 70s he's like can i retire from being can i be done now this is like getting

00:29:37.400 to be a bit much um you know fleeing this reverse revolution and stuff so they the trio the gang

00:29:45.460 um so William Emma and Nelson all well it's a trio but also a foursome because Emma's pregnant

00:29:54.040 true yes so she is she is pregnant by Nelson and Nelson always wanted children like he wanted

00:30:05.200 like he married Fanny and he thought that they'd have children but then she wasn't able to children

00:30:09.340 that led to some stress in the relationship Emma I think always wanted more children too

00:30:13.780 but like sir william was not able to to provide that for her so she's pregnant with nelson's baby

00:30:19.560 and they returned to england and it's like oh my god emma and she's wearing these like maternity

00:30:24.260 dresses and everyone's like then everyone's it's like a real regina george moment like everyone

00:30:29.020 starts wearing dresses with the waist like the the bust line like practically at your shoulders

00:30:34.220 it's like yeah because those are maternity dresses they're like we have to dress a la emma 0.58

00:30:37.960 and they're all wearing maternity dresses that's so funny and like fake maltese crosses

00:30:43.900 so they come back and she does her attitudes in england but she's because you know to recap like

00:30:52.960 this is where she's sort of like acting out in sort of like a fancy charades like different

00:30:58.480 famous history and she's doing scenes of pregnant women because just to show like i am pregnant so 0.98

00:31:03.200 she's being like Cleopatra. Like she really, so Nelson, one of his big victories was in the

00:31:07.780 battle of the Nile, like in Egypt. So people are really all about that. Like there was a big

00:31:13.060 crocodile hat craze. Everybody's just like the Nile, he's a hero, crocodiles. We love him.

00:31:20.000 So she's really leaning into this, like Cleopatra, the Nile and Cleopatra famously,

00:31:24.820 like she was with Julius Caesar, then she was with Mark Anthony. So it's kind of like,

00:31:28.240 she was a war hero and she was the woman. So it's, yes, there are parallels here.

00:31:32.760 So she's doing her attitudes. Um, she's showing up for pregnant belly. Everybody she's as famous. 0.99

00:31:38.160 She's more famous than ever, actually. All of this though, still doesn't get her admitted to

00:31:44.240 the Royal court. Uh, queen Charlotte, once again, she gets a letter even from queen Maria Carolina

00:31:49.120 writing like a letter of recommendation basically for Emma saying like highlighting all her

00:31:55.760 achievements saying this is she's my best friend like please let her into court and this still 1.00

00:32:02.080 comes to nothing because queen charlotte is just like a sleeper hate heinous bitch but like kind 1.00

00:32:08.460 of tops them all yeah i know like i can't emphasize enough how much the real life queen charlotte was 0.99

00:32:13.700 not like queen charlotte on bridgerton yeah she but meanwhile like emma and is hanging out with

00:32:21.040 like all like pretty and like the other sort of like party princess like she's friends with 0.90

00:32:25.700 everybody she's like the toast of society basically which is really interesting is this like pregnant

00:32:30.980 with her lover's child like yeah one knows it's nelson's child but she's married sir william so

00:32:37.160 technically it's going to be sir william's child because that's right one person who's like not

00:32:42.780 into it is fanny should we talk about do you know about the living arrangements that we get into

00:32:47.980 here? I do know a bit. I know that, um, eventually for like, so Emma and Sir William were living in

00:32:54.540 one house and Nelson was living in another house. And then Emma was going back and forth so much,

00:32:58.620 it costs so much in like transit that they're like, why don't we just all live in one house

00:33:02.140 together? Yeah. I'll move into a house. Well, so like when they first come back to England,

00:33:08.560 they were planning to all go to Nelson's house to live like Sir William, Emma and Nelson,

00:33:14.740 but there's some quote unquote miscommunication that means they don't go to nelson's house where

00:33:22.180 fanny is they all have to get rooms at a hotel in london next to each other so then fanny comes

00:33:29.280 to london she meets them there and that's when she finds out emma's pregnant and she's like

00:33:32.540 obviously deeply deeply unhappy with this this is when the affair like becomes common knowledge

00:33:38.540 like before it had been gossip but it happened in naples and then in london it like really takes off

00:33:44.040 the townhouses, like you said, they're basically within walking distance, but because Emma is

00:33:48.480 pregnant and an it girl, yes, transportation between the two. Um, but Fanny, Fanny kind of 0.97

00:33:56.100 tries to start a feud in the press with Emma, but Emma is still like, everyone loves her still.

00:34:03.920 Like, even though there was that kind of whispered rumor that she was the one inciting violence in

00:34:09.500 Naples, um, most of the public still like looks upon her very, very fondly. Well, and this is

00:34:15.940 where also Nelson is trying to separate from Fanny. Um, but Fanny's just like, no, I do not

00:34:23.620 accept. Nope. I, I am your wife and I will not leave you. And this is, she had like no allies

00:34:31.000 in this situation. Cause like we've also said, Sir William was cool with the affair, even though

00:34:35.580 at this point like he starts being made fun of in the press and in cartoons but like he still is

00:34:44.140 obsessed with emma and like she is still attached to him like she's fond of him so whatever

00:34:49.440 relationship they have like still going strong even though they are kind of in this love triangle

00:34:55.120 at this point and fanny also like because her family like she just doesn't have any allies

00:34:59.560 partially because she's from the caribbean like her she doesn't have family in town like she has

00:35:03.740 no one and Emma like is all friends in high places like it's it's an interesting thing

00:35:10.620 because you look at the movies like the it's called that Hamilton woman with Vivian Leigh

00:35:14.580 and Louis Olivier and like this is the famous love story is Nelson and Emma um but you kind

00:35:22.420 of have to shove Fanny aside because it's hard to celebrate a love story when it's like there's

00:35:26.960 this wife who's also like excuse me like hello so you kind of have to villainize her a little bit

00:35:33.580 which vivian lee it's weird that she did that twice and gone with the wind and that hamilton

00:35:38.660 woman so emma i i forget if i said this before but i'll say it again just like casting

00:35:43.360 laurence olivier sir as nelson this like short one-eyed one-armed like little guy

00:35:51.640 like even even when they were sort of touring around london people were like oh my god it's

00:35:56.080 nelson and they saw him they're like that's nelson like because like the hunk in all of our

00:36:00.260 like drawings like yeah yeah to package it for hollywood it's got to be a lawrence olivier who

00:36:07.080 i think you compared to jacob lordy offline yeah it's just kind of like who's like the tallest

00:36:12.660 hottest man so well and this is also this is in an era where like trigger warning lord byron

00:36:18.840 it's like he's the most handsome hot guy and he is good looking and so that's kind of like

00:36:26.460 what people that's the ideal so people are a romantic hero yeah yeah and so nelson who is

00:36:32.440 like doing these like brave things that lord byron could only dream of it's like so they assume well

00:36:36.200 he must also be handsome and it's like oh he's not he's yeah little little yeah lord lord byron

00:36:42.060 had the style and like desperately wanted the substance and then nelson over here has the

00:36:46.920 substance but one eye one arm yeah no teeth and emma is obsessed with him so they as she should

00:36:56.060 be you know yeah you do girl they're in england and emma like she's quite pregnant when they travel

00:37:01.580 and they go to england yes there's a daughter who the daughter is named horatia after of course

00:37:08.100 because his name is horatio so just she's making it really clear like this child is the child of

00:37:14.440 nelson right you gotta do it also she gives birth on january 29th she appears at a concert in public

00:37:22.560 Like on February 1st, my God, ma'am, like you're allowed to take time off.

00:37:30.240 That's a real Kate Middleton giving birth and like getting her hair blown out. 0.58

00:37:34.460 On the steps seven hours later.

00:37:36.320 Yeah.

00:37:36.660 Yeah.

00:37:37.100 I think there's something about Kate Williams explain this in her biography.

00:37:39.900 It was something like Emma had to show that she was pregnant and then she had to show

00:37:43.600 up being not pregnant after for some reason.

00:37:46.360 Like it's just to prove to everybody like I had a baby.

00:37:49.620 Okay.

00:37:50.520 Interesting. 1.00

00:37:50.920 like needed to show that this had really happened i'm not sure but she she made a spectacular

00:37:56.700 appearance yes at this time um nelson's not in london we should say he was sent back to sea

00:38:04.600 for some military reason he and emma write letters back and forth the whole time they even talk about

00:38:10.840 her pregnancy and like how excited they are um she still keeps her existing daughter a secret

00:38:17.200 from him nelson doesn't know about that she yes little emma because i think there's something

00:38:23.480 even when she gives birth and this is like later on in the story when people are blackmailing her

00:38:28.380 for various reasons there's people like the doctor who was there and she gave birth like

00:38:31.940 it was apparent this is not the first time this woman has given birth and so she pulls them off

00:38:36.340 to not tell nelson because like nelson can't know about this teenage child she had i guess

00:38:42.180 Interesting. Yeah. So she has to keep it away. So she gives birth while Nelson's at sea and he

00:38:48.500 writes letters explaining the child was an orphan left to his care and protection while they were

00:38:54.820 still back in Naples. So that when Horatia gets baptized, her date of birth is like post-dated

00:39:03.780 back to October, 1800. So this, this infant baby is being paraded around as a, as a 18 month old

00:39:13.100 child, because we need to keep up the appearance that she was born in Naples and like Emma and

00:39:19.540 Nelson out of the goodness of their hearts adopted her. Yeah. Like she was supposedly their godchild.

00:39:26.640 What this reminds me of is, I don't know if people know this, the, the story of,

00:39:31.560 Oh, Clark Gable had a child with an actress in the like 1930s who was not married and she was

00:39:39.480 really Catholic, Loretta Young. So he and Loretta Young had an affair and then she had a child and

00:39:44.880 she was Catholic, so she didn't get an abortion. And she had this daughter for what she did is she

00:39:50.580 just like went off the radar for a while. Then she came back and she's like, Hey, I've just adopted

00:39:54.780 this baby. I, a single woman adopt this baby. And so then she like, just was like, I'm a single

00:40:01.280 woman who adopted a baby that's just a thing that happens but like edith and downton abbey like

00:40:06.140 tales of his time yes so clark gable has or had these really famous like sticking out ears

00:40:11.820 that was like very and the daughter had sticking out ears so loretta young always put hats on the

00:40:18.860 daughter because it was so apparent like this is the daughter of clark gable because yeah

00:40:25.080 so it's just this is reminding me of that they're just like this is horatia humans are so funny

00:40:30.140 a child we just found don't worry about it like we love her so much Emma was obviously pregnant

00:40:37.480 and now it's not pregnant but and there's a baby but that this is not that baby don't worry about

00:40:41.480 it but this is also at the time period where so Prinny George Prince of Wales speaking of

00:40:47.460 speaking of women who adopt children that may or may not be their own so Prinny um he becomes

00:40:56.680 obsessed with Emma at this time. And he like really wants to get together with her. And he

00:41:00.460 is somebody sort of like Nelson. He really just like throws himself when he gets a crush. He just

00:41:04.960 like throws everything at it. And Emma is so monogamous and she's so all about Nelson. She's

00:41:10.120 just like, this is never going to happen. And also pretty is gross. Like pretty is gross. He is a 1.00

00:41:15.800 horrifying person who has books covered in human skin, which I talked about last week on the 0.99

00:41:20.200 podcast to go anyways i was just like no thanks but nelson knows pretty's reputation and he also 0.74

00:41:27.260 emma cheated on her husband with me so she might cheat on me with this guy so nelson becomes like

00:41:33.220 obsessed with like very jealous she so he's writing her letters and all these letters are

00:41:38.380 like don't have dinner with him don't let him in your house like don't see him and like he's really

00:41:43.400 obsessed with it and then but it's like it's the prince of wills and you really want to stay on his

00:41:47.380 good side. And like Emma and Sir William, they're like wigs. And like, that's the political party

00:41:52.660 that Prynne is involved with. And so there's a scene situation where Emma is so upset that like 0.97

00:42:00.380 Prynne has to come over to dinner and she can't stop it. And she's like weeping. She gives herself

00:42:04.040 a migraine. She's crying so hard. And so Sir William writes this letter to Nelson being like,

00:42:09.360 dear Nelson, like, don't worry. Emma is being faithful to you. My wife, your mistress.

00:42:14.960 don't worry about it we have to have the prince of those over for dinner

00:42:19.020 emma's so upset about it but like don't worry it's fine that's an extraordinary situation yeah

00:42:24.940 yeah um so trying to catch up on my notes here so i mean so this is this is happening like this is

00:42:31.440 as calm as her life ever is honestly so at this point um nelson buys a home called merton place

00:42:39.940 near Wimbledon.

00:42:42.880 He, when I say buys it,

00:42:44.860 he buys it by borrowing money from his friend.

00:42:47.420 He doesn't have a lot of money, you know,

00:42:48.880 because he's like from poor origins. 0.99

00:42:51.240 Even though he's a war hero,

00:42:53.060 he gets like prize money when he wins a battle or something,

00:42:55.560 but that's not an income.

00:42:57.760 So William is massively in debt

00:42:59.220 because he just assumes the government

00:43:00.380 will pay him back at some point.

00:43:02.000 And Emma just like is a woman 1.00

00:43:03.200 and so is not allowed to have her own independent money. 1.00

00:43:05.920 So just like, again, just like laying on track 1.00

00:43:07.560 for what's going to happen later on.

00:43:09.160 yeah but despite having no money so he buys merton place and he basically gives emma a blank

00:43:15.840 checkbook and says decorate improve the property and she takes that directive as okay i'm going to

00:43:23.720 turn this house into a celebration of nelson's genius she turns into like graceland colon nelson

00:43:31.600 version it's just the whole place like she does it's just nelson paraphernalia like paintings of

00:43:37.540 Nelson. Like, I feel like Nelson face wallpaper, like everything is just like Nelson really

00:43:43.780 putting all your eggs in one basket here. Like I get the vision, but I liked you better, Emma,

00:43:48.960 when you were like doing your attitudes and doing like stuff that was a celebration of you. Like

00:43:54.320 you were so good at this. I hate this for you. I'm so sorry. Although they did, because I said

00:43:59.860 the mom pops up, she gets to move her mom in to Merton place as well. So mom's still here.

00:44:04.200 grandmother is also still alive somewhere i'm pretty sure so everyone is just so they're living

00:44:10.100 to so sir william is living there emma's living there like when he's not off doing navy things

00:44:14.720 he's living there so it's just kind of like this another little menage a trois situation i know

00:44:19.420 it's interesting because we did the georgiana like best her husband thing and now it's kind of

00:44:23.680 like this is like a happier one because sir william is like cool with it there's less jealousy for

00:44:29.780 sure uh yeah yeah i don't know and this also just fascinates the public too that these they're all

00:44:36.420 living they're all just the public is like what is going on here why are they living together like

00:44:44.120 but it's like nelson is like the hero emma is like the sex symbol of the time and and then there's

00:44:50.280 sir william also there in his 70s at this point and he does he's ill he's you know he passes away

00:44:58.560 in 1803 he dies in emma's arms yeah um and this changes a lot of things so he dies leaving a lot

00:45:07.580 of debts because again he kept assuming the government would pay him back for services

00:45:11.820 rendered and they never did and he did not you couldn't leave an estate to a woman usually so

00:45:19.700 the estate goes to do you remember throwing it back to episode one greville oh the nephew

00:45:26.220 who was a real lover before.

00:45:29.080 So that is who's going to inherit everything is that guy.

00:45:31.760 But Sir William does kind of provide for her with an annuity in his will.

00:45:37.320 So like an allowance, it's supposed to be 800 pounds,

00:45:40.880 which would roughly be 106,000 pounds or 142,000 US dollars today.

00:45:48.460 Which is nothing to sneeze at if she's able to get it,

00:45:52.500 which again is another matter.

00:45:53.820 as we will see because people yeah who's the executive of the estate and things like that 0.86

00:45:58.620 and so what a woman in this situation would usually do is get married again pretty quickly 1.00

00:46:04.380 because you need like for financial reasons like you need like a protector like a woman can't it's 1.00

00:46:09.460 so hard to do and that's on paper like you're supposed to get that money but it kind of depends

00:46:15.400 on what the people like you said running the estate actually decide to follow through on

00:46:20.480 Yeah. So Emma, she does not, she gets immediately like so many marriage proposals because she is like the Marilyn Monroe of her time.

00:46:28.800 Everyone's just like, oh my God, this like goddess is single. 0.99

00:46:32.880 But she's holding up to wait to see she wants to marry Nelson. 1.00

00:46:37.460 Like she's a one man gal. 1.00

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00:49:46.400 So she's just like waiting. 0.65

00:49:47.460 She's like, well, if Fanny dies, then Nelson and I can get married.

00:49:50.760 Fanny's still around.

00:49:52.920 I mean, here's a spoiler.

00:49:54.120 Fanny is the longest lived of anyone in this story.

00:49:57.100 Yeah.

00:49:58.760 Fanny, I think. 1.00

00:50:00.060 I was going to rape you off. 1.00

00:50:01.640 it's for it but yeah she's still in love with nelson and she i think even if she thinks like 0.99

00:50:07.440 even if finney doesn't die like she thinks like nelson's gonna get rich from like winning from

00:50:10.660 price money like winning more battles and he will support her she believes she is can we just pause

00:50:17.200 and talk about her like optimistic outlook on life she just believes the best of people in a way

00:50:24.500 sweet but like not smart she yeah chooses to believe everything will all work out and i think

00:50:32.200 that is partly because it's worked for her so far like she's gotten this far because of her beauty

00:50:37.140 and her natural gifts but once she's back in london it's so interesting like society is the

00:50:44.100 thing that makes that not always work so she like yeah she's holding out for nelson to come

00:50:49.920 single become single marry her but in the meantime she still has to support herself she has 0.98

00:50:55.580 this well she has two daughters um she has to make ends meet she has built this house

00:51:00.740 decorated this house now that is that bill is coming due so she like does a couple things 0.85

00:51:07.220 she continues to display her attitudes which i find interesting even though at this point 0.85

00:51:13.160 most contemporary accounts say that like she's passed her prime which i hate um 1.00

00:51:19.580 one audience member wrote that she is bold and unguarded in her manner is grown fat and drinks

00:51:27.140 freely so it's like this was cute when she was 20 but now that she's like 35 even yeah and like

00:51:35.220 even elizabeth vj lebrun she comes to visit her in 1802 and remarks that after her husband's death

00:51:42.980 i guess the next year she did not seem convincingly moved by her husband's death and had grown horribly

00:51:49.240 fat. Um, the last time they had met was in Naples when Nelson was like just beginning to pull Emma

00:51:56.060 into his orbit. It's like, you know, when you see people nowadays who are like, what happened to

00:51:59.740 this actor? It's like, she aged. It's like, yeah, it's the progression of time. I forget if it was

00:52:04.800 Britney Spears memoir or when someone's memoir that I read, whether it's just like, I'm sorry,

00:52:08.640 when did I promise to look the same as I did at 17 for the rest of my life? Yeah. Or like, um,

00:52:14.400 Renee Zellweger has talked about this too, I think. Cause she is one where like they started

00:52:18.720 to do the reboots of Bridget Jones and everyone's like oh what happened it's like I'm older now

00:52:22.660 yeah I don't know so the fact is like like Brooke Shields that Emma became so famous and so well

00:52:29.360 known for her beauty when she was a teenager and she's preserved in all these paintings which

00:52:34.740 famously you know are a frozen moment in time that's what people are used to seeing so people

00:52:40.600 so it's like you see it's you know what when any actor goes away for a bit and then comes back it's

00:52:44.680 like there's the new I know you did last summer Jennifer Love Hewitt was on the carpet everyone's

00:52:48.560 like oh what what it's like yeah she aged because she's a person and she doesn't look like she did

00:52:56.240 and i know you did last summer 25 years ago like people are when you don't see a celebrity for a

00:53:01.640 long time and then you do it is it's like oh it's kind of startling because you imagine that

00:53:05.100 change but it's like oh no they're people they're people they're people too like oh emma she got fat

00:53:09.940 it's like maybe she did but like she had a stable home life for the first time in her existence too

00:53:16.680 like let's not forget regularly yeah she's had two children like yeah yeah um but she's also

00:53:23.620 like trying to win over nelson's family so she like his father comes to merton house what is it

00:53:32.660 merton place um she nurses him for 10 days and like thought about moving in with emma and nelson

00:53:38.420 um but she like also connected herself to nelson's sisters she like babysits their kids 0.62

00:53:45.900 and gives them money which like you should not be doing girl worry about yourself but she's also 1.00

00:53:51.200 like i think trying to court and ingratiate herself there one of her things that she that 1.00

00:53:57.120 she has oh that she always did like as soon as she had access to money or credit was she gave 1.00

00:54:01.480 to the poor like she was always very philanthropic and it was often going to like the magdalene

00:54:06.740 sisters or like like to like women in trouble or like orphan children like she's always she

00:54:14.340 had a really filled but she just did not fundamentally understand how money worked

00:54:18.440 and there's lots of reasons for that and part of it is because people just kept being like sure

00:54:23.220 spend whatever you want like she didn't have to learn that she didn't know that she would ever

00:54:26.940 need to know that so she just kind of thought she had limitless funds and she spent as though she

00:54:31.760 did on both herself and also on giving to the poor like she gave yeah she's it's like such a

00:54:37.540 it's like a toxic people pleaser personality like she's like she's like oh i'll nurse this person 0.93

00:54:43.160 back to house and i'll give this person all this money and there's one point where she like she 1.00

00:54:47.840 always had a household staff and at some point she was hiring a new whatever housekeeper or

00:54:53.060 something and she was told by sir william like yeah just pay whatever you think is fair and then

00:54:56.640 she paid like above market value like she just didn't she just wanted to be generous to everybody

00:55:01.920 because she needed everybody to love her and it kind of like tips over from being like oh she's

00:55:09.220 like a kind, sweet person to being like, Oh, this is pathological. Actually, this is like,

00:55:14.640 and this is why ladies, if your husband tells you he wants to handle financials and you can just

00:55:20.260 be a traditional woman in the home and you don't have to worry about anything.

00:55:24.640 Do not listen to him. You need to know these skills because what if he dies? What if something

00:55:29.820 happens? That's not a spoiler. This is history. You need to have your own bank account. You need

00:55:35.560 to have credit like ladies savings it's such a cautionary tale like she's living this fabulous

00:55:44.920 life but she she never knew that it was because cerulean was in massive debt constantly and then

00:55:50.860 he died leaving all this debt and then it's like well that's nothing to do with me i'll just keep

00:55:54.880 spending the way that i did like she didn't and like a part where you can kind of see that also

00:55:59.040 is her daughter, Emma, the first one. Sir William was taking care of her upkeep. And before that,

00:56:06.020 it was Greville. Now that Sir William is dead, this is when Emma finally has to tell Nelson

00:56:12.780 about her first daughter. Luckily, that goes well. She has nothing to worry about. He loves 0.84

00:56:18.760 baby Emma, who is now, I guess, adult Emma 2.0. She comes to stay with them sometimes.

00:56:24.820 and he did assume financial responsibility for her. 0.98

00:56:29.760 So this poor girl like got passed off to different men 1.00

00:56:33.520 to be financially responsible for her.

00:56:35.920 And everything's going great.

00:56:37.520 And then Nelson dies.

00:56:39.360 Yeah, he gets called off to the Napoleonic Wars in 1803.

00:56:44.220 So he died at Trafalgar.

00:56:45.840 And if you go to London, there's Trafalgar Square.

00:56:48.760 Like this is all named after Nelson

00:56:50.840 because it was a battle that ultimately the British won,

00:56:54.120 but he died in it and one of the reasons he died in it i don't know if you know this detail

00:56:58.160 um was because they were like on you know it's like ship versus ship sort of battle and there's

00:57:04.460 you know like smoke from all the oldie time muskets and stuff and they're like sir like

00:57:08.160 nelson could you take all the like sparkling star medals off of your jacket he's like no i'm nelson

00:57:13.040 i'm gonna wear all my star medals it's like it's like emma wearing her like cross of melda he's

00:57:17.680 like so then he gets shot because he's so visible because he's got all these like

00:57:22.560 glittering things like this so was he a military genius like was he friends was he

00:57:29.600 this so he ends up getting shot and he like in the spine and he he dies and like as he dies he's

00:57:37.320 like tell emma i love her or something but like you know what he didn't do put her in his will

00:57:42.620 so yeah well also sorry before we get to that um because things unravel from there

00:57:48.780 they had a second baby also oh yes so she was pregnant again when he left yeah when he left

00:57:56.360 for the napoleonic wars she was pregnant though neither knew it at that time and like she's at

00:58:02.580 home frantically redecorating trying to make it into like something that he can come home to

00:58:07.440 and she gives birth to a second child with nelson um also reportedly named emma there's like not

00:58:14.540 really great records about this baby um she dies at like six weeks old yeah like she's it's a i

00:58:21.840 don't know if the baby was born earlier but it's just like you know olden times infant mortality

00:58:25.740 etc etc so this is like very devastating because um obviously the death of a child and also

00:58:31.980 so she they had a child like emma baby emma died nelson comes back for like 25 days

00:58:37.560 and emma's just like i hope to get pregnant again to like help me get past this and also it would 1.00

00:58:42.800 be great to have a son because that would just be good for inheritance and stuff she does not

00:58:46.880 get pregnant again nelson goes off to the battle of trafalgar and dies and so in his his will said

00:58:52.900 something like i trust that the government will provide for emma hamilton yes it's like

00:58:59.920 not good enough guy the government the government pretty the british the british government yeah

00:59:06.560 yeah famously yeah like they didn't give they don't have any money first of all because and

00:59:12.340 He also, unfortunately, like there's that part of it.

00:59:15.940 Like he's writing basically the crown should give Emma quote ample provision to maintain

00:59:21.240 her rank in life because of his achievements for the British Navy.

00:59:26.500 Like they haven't been paying him so far and he's just hoping that they're going to pay

00:59:30.480 his mistress in like lieu of all of the stuff he thinks he's owed while he's still alive.

00:59:36.140 But like, this is a note that isn't like legally witnessed.

00:59:39.380 he intends it to be a codicil to his will but it it isn't you know it's his intention absolutely

00:59:46.500 he was living like he was immortal like he didn't go enough to battle constantly but he never thought

00:59:52.180 he was gonna die so he never really made plans and he just sort of like her they're both sort

00:59:56.500 of just like toxic optimists where they're just like it'll work out and it's like dude no like

01:00:04.860 this is not good so emma so sir william's dead she inherited not much from him considering lots

01:00:11.220 of debts as well that have to be paid yes um nelson dies and she gets an annuity well she's

01:00:17.960 supposed to she's supposed to but this isn't but she also just like doesn't get it she keeps

01:00:24.020 like throwing parties redecorating like spending money like it's i hate that we see this timing 1.00

01:00:30.560 again from these women i know it's like madame duberry type vibes where it's just like this is

01:00:36.360 not but there's no one around to be like or if there are people like to tell her just like girl 1.00

01:00:42.600 like yeah or geordina who like her creditors like don't press that hard to be repaid so she can just

01:00:50.880 still go to another creditor and rack up even more debt like because nobody really talks about it

01:00:56.460 openly well that's the thing no one talks about money and so and emma is living in an echelon

01:01:01.980 like at this point georgiana is dead but like similar to her it's just kind of like everyone

01:01:06.260 is throwing parties everyone has credit no one talks about it but someone like georgiana like

01:01:11.780 even with the message that she had like she had family connections she had like eventually someone

01:01:16.440 was able to pay all that but emma doesn't have any of that like you could live as like an 0.98

01:01:21.180 independent woman like because she's not married she doesn't have a lover at this point if you had 1.00

01:01:26.360 independent family wealth but she has nothing like she was the daughter of a blacksmith so

01:01:30.960 she's living the way that her friends are living so she assumes that it's all just she's like

01:01:36.100 and she's yeah banking on future promises of wealth that like no one has actually promised

01:01:41.540 her she's just assumed i'm gonna marry nelson when his wife dies which like doesn't happen 0.59

01:01:47.580 and he's gonna win all of this prize money in battle which doesn't happen because he dies

01:01:53.840 so it's just that's really sad and i mean to make it even worse like she's not allowed to go to

01:01:59.680 nelson's funeral because they're not married she's a mistress and like she had wanted to sing

01:02:05.240 some song for the service like he had wanted her to sing at the wedding because she had a beautiful 0.79

01:02:10.000 singing voice so and like nobody cares well and it's it's such a it's such a downfall for her

01:02:18.960 like she went from like the toast of the town to suddenly just like oh yeah because you weren't

01:02:22.720 married to nelson like actually you get nothing and she she's got all these friends and so one

01:02:27.460 of the reasons she keeps spending money is to like host parties and go to parties to make these 0.99

01:02:31.340 connections with people like prinny and the princess who she thinks can influence to get 1.00

01:02:36.300 her money like she she throws all of her eggs in the basket of like she thinks that prinny 0.99

01:02:40.000 is going to they're all in debt too like famously yeah so she just thinks that like by being friends

01:02:46.080 with these people and keeping up with them they will help support her but they do not um and

01:02:52.420 eventually so she starts just like selling stuff to pay off some of your creditors eventually to

01:02:57.940 sell off a lot of her nelson memorabilia eventually eventually she ends up having to sell merton

01:03:03.520 the house which like she doesn't want as much money for as she thought she would because

01:03:07.220 it's the nelson fad has kind of tacky no one wants to buy like graceland yeah it's kind of like the

01:03:15.020 the sale what is it i don't know you know all those shows where they're like you make the house

01:03:18.300 look nice so people will buy it like it doesn't have a curb appeal um eventually but she still

01:03:24.600 keeps some stuff with her i find this really fascinating so she she goes into so debtor's 0.85

01:03:30.780 prison is a place where literally debtor's prison well also because she keeps even though she's

01:03:36.160 spending and she doesn't quite get it she can't really live the same lavish lifestyle she's 0.99

01:03:40.420 accustomed to she also still gives out charity and handouts and like even at one point nelson's

01:03:45.860 brother who is the executor of his estate and refuses to give emma her pension that she's

01:03:51.120 entitled to by his will he comes for a handout from her at one point and like she still helps

01:03:56.260 the sisters take care of their children it's like this family is taking such advantage of her well

01:04:01.380 and she doesn't and it's everybody up until she lands in debtor's prison all of society assumes 0.99

01:04:08.620 she's rich yes part of this is because they just everyone like her assumes like well she was nelson's

01:04:14.500 this or sometimes she's being taken care of it's like by who she's not but she's also going to

01:04:18.860 parties and wearing new jewels and stuff so she's acting like she's rich so people assume she's

01:04:23.140 rich people are coming to her for handouts and stuff during the midst of this um so so her first

01:04:30.400 run in debtor's prison it's it's she's not like in a cell there's i didn't know about this do you

01:04:34.880 know about this like it's like a neighborhood so there's like apartments yeah called the rules

01:04:40.320 to i guess keep up the appearances again like because we don't talk about money

01:04:45.940 so it's sort of like these houses near where debtor's prison is and you can like live under

01:04:51.820 these like apartments um as long as you don't leave like a certain perimeter so it's like

01:04:58.260 you're in debtor's prison but you're like living like you're in a house and she moved into one of

01:05:01.520 these apartments with her daughter horatia and she's got this beautiful furniture and her silver

01:05:06.100 cutlery and her china. It's like, bitch, what? That's a great setup. Sell these things. What 1.00

01:05:12.280 do you do? So people like the princess, like Prinny's bride come by to dinner parties. They're 1.00

01:05:17.560 like, Oh, I had a nice time at her house. It's like, how about we focus on paying your debt so

01:05:21.420 you can get out of debtor's prison, which the whole concept of debtor's prison was always so

01:05:25.200 funny to me. Like you're in debt. So I'm going to keep you here in prison. So you can't make money

01:05:31.980 to pay off my debt. But when it comes to these genteel, like aristocratic prisoners, you're 0.95

01:05:37.520 still, you're still clinging to that link to society, keeping up appearances. And it's like

01:05:43.300 that, that is preferable to them, to the alternative, which is like back on the street

01:05:48.860 in London in December, selling your body for money. Like, yeah, I get it. I do get that a

01:05:55.240 little bit. Yeah. Like her daughter, Horatia went from like the toast of the town, living in this,

01:06:00.280 living in merton having this amazing life to suddenly living in this like dingy like slum 0.85

01:06:05.580 neighborhood like it was shocking like this is how your mother grew up but this is not the life 0.68

01:06:09.520 that horatius ever lived before yeah so at some point while she's living in debtor's prison

01:06:16.500 apartment complex the so she's also a hoarder which i think you can guess my description of

01:06:24.160 her belongings. Um, she is a hoarder and she is really disorganized. So she's like, she moved from 0.99

01:06:31.040 Merton to like an apartment to somewhere else to debtor's prison. And she kind of loses track of

01:06:34.240 stuff. And one of the things she loses track of is her letters from Nelson, which ended up being

01:06:38.720 published in the newspapers and kind of ruins both of their reputations because these are the letters 0.98

01:06:44.540 Nelson was sending where he was like, God damn it. Are you fucking the Prince of Wales? I hate 1.00

01:06:49.040 that guy. Like it kind of, yeah. And like, she would write about Fanny, his wife, like, and how 0.94

01:06:55.360 she, she like, isn't very sly about it. She talks about how she hopes she'll die so that she can 0.74

01:07:01.000 marry Nelson. Um, she wrote in one of the letters, I just loved this quote. Um, I am, I am ever your

01:07:08.620 affectionate Emma. And then she adds like at the end, I would say Emma N, but I am afraid such 0.90

01:07:14.660 happiness and honor is not in store for me for she meaning fanny will never burst it's like god 0.94

01:07:21.600 damn it why isn't she dying so yeah the public now can see like this peek behind the curtain 0.88

01:07:26.540 the mystique is kind of ruined when these letters are published beautiful well not that it was ever 0.99

01:07:33.040 beautiful but people were shipping this but now like to see you have that idea yeah of the like

01:07:37.760 romantic like capital r romantic pairing yeah and now they both just kind of look like trashy 1.00

01:07:44.580 bitches and this so the thing is like this ruins the reputation more so and this makes this is 1.00

01:07:49.640 sort of a this makes pretty be like well i'm never going to give you money now because you're like 0.98

01:07:53.380 a disgraced person but also it's like emma could have made money if she had sold those letters

01:07:58.760 but somebody else made money by selling them on her behalf so it's like she didn't have the

01:08:05.020 business sense to think that those were valuable things that she could make money off of

01:08:08.900 so yeah things are going badly for her she has a couple of friends who there's like this one

01:08:15.700 money lender and then there's a guy who's like the alderman of the neighborhood where the rules

01:08:19.940 is who just kind of feels bad for her and he sort of helps her sell some stuff like he buys some

01:08:25.700 things from her he's just his name is joshua smith shout out to joshua smith and he eventually helps

01:08:32.200 her, uh, Iconic of her. Yeah. This is very cheap. Yeah. Very vanity fair. Like at the end where

01:08:44.840 Reese Witherspoon like ends up in, I think it's Germany working in a casino. Emma flees to France 0.99

01:08:50.600 with Horatia. She has 50 pounds in her purse, but still takes very expensive apartments at 0.62

01:08:58.620 Dyson's hotel. Yeah. She, she, well, the credit is not lend to her. So she's just like, 1.00

01:09:06.780 yeah, she again, hires a whole staff, a housekeeper, other servants, um, like throws 1.00

01:09:12.240 parties, maintains a social life. And like, eventually the debts catch up with her. So 0.99

01:09:16.940 she has like maybe a year where she can fudge it in France, like Anna Delvey kind of lifestyle.

01:09:22.080 um but it's yeah but she can't pull it off she's not that she's not malicious no she just like

01:09:29.840 doesn't get it well at this point i think it's sort of like a purposeful not like let's just

01:09:36.440 pretend it's not an issue and maybe everything will be fine yeah just like this sort of wishful

01:09:41.720 thinking but also she ultimately like she's got various health issues so sir william eventually

01:09:46.600 died of what was probably dysentery that he probably picked up in naples and then emma

01:09:51.720 seems to have similar symptoms so potentially it's she got a similar virus and it's her time

01:09:56.340 in debtor's prison and stuff like exacerbated this she gets like liver problems like so many

01:10:00.920 people in this era she's self-medicating with laudanum which is a mixed a tincture of opium 0.95

01:10:05.920 mixed with alcohol um and you mentioned before like she she she's a heavy drinker so she has a

01:10:12.920 slow and like heritia is there witnessing this but it's like over a couple she slowly dies over

01:10:18.400 a couple of weeks yeah they move to like this cheap apartment they're in france but this is

01:10:23.880 10 years after nelson has died like he dies in 1805 um emma dies in 1815 so that's 10 years

01:10:33.280 just living in slow decline and that's like age like 39 to 49 she's 49 when she passes away and

01:10:40.100 it's just sort of like and when she dies the sort of the obituaries are all kind of making fun of 0.81

01:10:45.100 her as being this great whore or this kind of like person who's like she's not well remembered 0.76

01:10:51.240 she's buried in France I think I have this or do you have this she converted to Catholicism so she 0.94

01:10:56.720 gets the end yeah yeah in a churchyard in France her grave was destroyed um in wartime destruction

01:11:04.200 which war I'm not sure there would have been several um but there is today a memorial to her

01:11:09.640 that was unveiled in 1994 in france in the park richeloup sir william was buried in like with his

01:11:19.460 first wife and then nelson was buried in this huge thing oh yeah it's awful yeah you have to look up

01:11:27.700 at it i know for this like little tiny man uh really this monument actually i just remember i

01:11:33.560 was looking back at my notes and i realized i didn't tie it all back so just to end this with a

01:11:37.440 with a fun anecdote, this tragic end of the story.

01:11:41.960 So remember her friend, Jane, who they were maids together.

01:11:44.340 Yes. 0.96

01:11:44.980 Yep. 1.00

01:11:45.200 Jane Powell. 1.00

01:11:45.780 So she became a famous actress.

01:11:47.720 And so later when, when everyone was still alive, when,

01:11:51.300 so Emma would go to the theater with Nelson and Fanny.

01:11:58.200 So Fanny would sit on the left and Emma would sit on the right of Nelson.

01:12:02.000 So she was like the side, his side that didn't have the arm. 0.67

01:12:04.400 So she could help feed him and stuff.

01:12:06.040 and everybody in London loved watching them it's like oh my god look at this famous love triangle

01:12:10.860 and so her friend Jane was was performing in this play and probably she and Jane had like

01:12:18.980 schemed to do this together so there's one line in the play where Jane's character says like

01:12:24.200 something about like an injured woman and she pointed directly at Fanny in the audience and 0.98

01:12:30.900 everyone was just like oh fuck what what fanny like faints like she's so upset by this she has 0.92

01:12:39.680 to be like carried out it was oh wow i love that i have one follow-up question which actually my 0.99

01:12:51.140 husband brought up yesterday we were watching um a movie and like there's a murder and the

01:12:56.340 heroin faints. And he asked me, he's like, was fainting like a real thing or was everyone just

01:13:02.000 pretending? Do you have any insight on that? I think, um, we might have to look into this.

01:13:11.640 I think it, well, obviously fainting is a real thing, but I do think that this could be a way

01:13:15.760 to get a person out of an awkward situation. Right. Cause it always seems to be, you know,

01:13:21.540 the well-bred wispy white woman or whatever like fainting i think it wouldn't be too hard to take 1.00

01:13:29.760 the well-bred wispy white woman in her corset who maybe hasn't been eating well all day to 1.00

01:13:35.880 tip it from being like oh my god i'm so upset to just like i'm just gonna talk a little i can't 1.00

01:13:40.880 i just can't yeah remember um princess lambelle she had some sort of like health issue where she 0.97

01:13:46.380 kept fainting and then people thought she was faking but she actually like had an actual health

01:13:50.700 concern and like some people might have been faking if they thought she was yeah i know i

01:13:56.880 think it's a mix honestly like people do faint obviously yes but i do think back in the day

01:14:04.820 this was probably a way to get out of an awkward situation that you could just be like yeah that

01:14:09.460 would make sense like this happened to fanny that this actress pointed at her calling her in front 1.00

01:14:15.180 everybody exactly and then fanny's just like get me out of here like yeah or like in a panic attack

01:14:21.700 you know yeah yeah i'm thinking i'm thinking of like um in gone with the wind another vivian lee 0.99

01:14:27.180 reference she has aunt pity pat who famously like every five minutes oh my smelling salt and it's

01:14:33.400 sometimes she can recover if someone's like stop being so silly here's actually what's going on

01:14:37.960 and she's like oh okay that's fine yeah so yeah okay i don't know i think it's it's also something

01:14:43.860 that like you just it will be in so many novels that maybe people would want to behave like the

01:14:49.980 characters who they hear about and they're just I don't know listeners from the health profession

01:14:55.940 are you a historian of fainting I'm sure someone's listening someone should be that could be a fun

01:15:02.420 book someone always is when I have a question in the podcast there's always someone and you know

01:15:08.440 in england there's so many people who are experts on so many weird like one specific thing yeah i'm

01:15:15.000 a historian of like exercise in the 1930s like i'm sure you are sir like i'm an expert in fainting

01:15:22.820 and actually you know what everybody was on so much opium i think fainting could be they were

01:15:30.260 all just barely conscious all the time yeah everyone was like drinking so much and like

01:15:35.360 the laudanum of it all and just like untreated every bloodletting was so common i think i think

01:15:43.580 probably fainting was more common that's my theory okay we need to give emma hamilton a score and i'm

01:15:49.940 very looking forward to this conversation because there's four categories if you're new to this

01:15:54.440 podcast at the end of a biographical episode we have four categories where we score the people

01:15:58.440 and then i see where that puts them in the pantheon on what we call the fredigand memorial

01:16:03.480 Scandaliciousness scale.

01:16:04.520 The first category is scandalousness. 0.63

01:16:07.160 How scandalous? 0.54

01:16:07.800 I think she's a 10. 1.00

01:16:08.940 How is she not a 10?

01:16:10.420 A 10. 1.00

01:16:10.860 Only because she didn't murder anyone, but she might still have. 0.99

01:16:15.080 She wanted to.

01:16:16.100 People acted like...

01:16:17.300 People assumed she did, actually. 0.92

01:16:18.820 They made it up, but they thought she did, and that added to her novelty.

01:16:22.900 Yeah, no, she was making waves in Britain when she wasn't even there. 0.58

01:16:27.260 She was living in Naples and still making headlines in London,

01:16:30.220 just because she and Nelson were in the same place at the same time. 0.98

01:16:32.980 I think, yeah, 10 out of 10 scandaliciousness and she owned it. 1.00

01:16:37.740 Like starting from the very beginning, like being the goddess of health and hymen, like 0.58

01:16:42.800 then doing being like, just posing for portrait paintings like she did, like not as like,

01:16:48.920 this is a portrait of so-and-so, but like, here's my nude body. Like that was shocking. And she,

01:16:54.860 there's no era of her life where she wasn't scandalizing somebody.

01:16:58.380 And like, just talking about her life, you know, you're kind of on the edge of

01:17:01.240 your seat waiting to see what she does next like at every turn yeah yeah like she's in the

01:17:06.920 scandalousness category i just want to explain for people like this is like how scandalous did

01:17:11.960 she seem to people at the time and like yes and how scandalous does she seem to us now i think

01:17:17.020 it's still a 10 out of 10 like this is like the whole reason she's famous basically yeah well the 0.72

01:17:21.620 movie the the movie movie is called that hamilton woman like she's just famous in towards at the

01:17:27.920 end of the kate williams biography and like the final chapter she's talking about when she was

01:17:32.140 writing this book you know in the early 2000s which you know 20 years ago but people still

01:17:36.780 think similarly now she would just casually mention a conversation and she's like at a party 0.95

01:17:41.580 and someone's like oh she must have been a good fuck like people like this is what people think 1.00

01:17:46.300 of her it's just like oh yeah she well she was a whore like this is she's understood within the 1.00

01:17:51.740 context of her scandaliciousness. Exactly. So I think, so, and on the show, we reward that. 0.99

01:17:58.500 We don't humanize that. The next category is scheminess. And this is like, I don't want to

01:18:04.500 take away from her moves she made to like move up in the world and take advantage of opportunities, 0.99

01:18:09.900 but she could have been more schemey. Yeah. I was thinking about this. She, 1.00

01:18:15.820 she was good at scheming on everybody else's behalf like not for herself as we just talked 0.99

01:18:23.020 about but think about her different eras like schemed the neapolitan royal family into exile 0.75

01:18:29.500 and like helped the island of malta break a famine and like scheme she tried to scheme in london for

01:18:37.780 her future if that had worked like if she had bided her time and nelson hadn't died in the war

01:18:43.180 and Fanny, like it was more like circumstances worked against her. She was scheming enough that

01:18:48.900 I'm willing to reward her. It's not a 10 for sure. No, it's not like she could had only,

01:18:54.900 she'd been more scheming who her life might've turned out better. But I think

01:18:57.860 even just like being, you know, like going from having the, the scheminess to know like, okay,

01:19:04.980 like I'm a sex worker on the street. I have this opportunity for this health and hymen

01:19:08.600 being able to see the opportunity going to kelly's and then being able to be the one chosen 0.99

01:19:14.020 and maybe she was chosen because she was the prettiest but then when she was doing that 0.91

01:19:17.900 summer bachelor party like to be able to turn that into a gravel paying her like she's able to 1.00

01:19:23.560 these are active things she did like she was put into a situation yes partially because she's pretty 1.00

01:19:28.920 but then she then schemed to turn it into something i would agree with that like she could 0.93

01:19:35.080 of she would she was always moving up her life could have just been like the show harlots which 0.56

01:19:41.020 i think we referenced in the first part of this like she could have entered mrs kelly's and that

01:19:45.220 would have been her life but it wasn't because i think she was an active participant in the events

01:19:50.140 of her life yeah at that time yeah so it's it's it's like a school seven it's tricky i think i

01:19:58.120 think a seven is fair like i do think that she i wish that she i think she was as schemey as she

01:20:04.540 could have been inherently with the life she lived and what yeah for the person she was 0.72

01:20:10.480 i wish that she had had someone with her who could have like she was so good at learning 0.96

01:20:16.020 languages and dances like if she had someone with her who could teach her how to do finances 1.00

01:20:20.480 that would have been maybe if she had stayed in like maria carolina's orbit things could have

01:20:27.800 gone very differently from her but once she went back to london everything kind of fell apart

01:20:31.820 yeah well and that's just like the the nelson of it all it's like oh this great love story i'm like

01:20:37.300 no she was hypnotized and this guy sucks her significance i think this is interesting because

01:20:44.080 she is like the most painted person she is at the time and that's just the beginning yeah she's got

01:20:51.580 so many iconic portraits when you look at emma hamilton like there's so many portraits of her

01:20:56.800 And then Kate Williams is looking at kind of like, so even before Romney, when she was like, not Mrs. Kelly's, when she was like, for that month she was on the street, she did like some freelance modeling work as well.

01:21:12.380 Like before, so this is a way to make money.

01:21:15.020 And so Kate Williams is like this painting.

01:21:17.200 Yeah, people were always kind of taking note.

01:21:19.940 This kind of looks like her.

01:21:21.200 It's like, you know, the famous painting by Henry Fuseli, The Nightmare of like the woman lying backwards and there's like a demon on her.

01:21:26.800 Kate Williams theorizes like that might have been Emma because it kind of looks like her

01:21:31.720 like there's so many if you look at paintings that are not identified as her you're like but

01:21:35.580 that looks like her that looks like her like she's all over art history like it's Elizabeth

01:21:42.180 Fuget Le Brun did this famous painting of her as the Sybil and she's wearing like a turban

01:21:46.540 and this is the painting in the Elizabeth Fuget Le Brun episode we talked about this Elizabeth

01:21:51.060 Fuget Le Brun traveled around Europe with this painting as like her business card to be like

01:21:55.740 look I'm a good painter see this like because that was like what she considered her best ever

01:22:00.340 work like so I feel like her significance to art history is pretty major her significance

01:22:05.920 she's like a quasi famous people at least have heard of her there's a movie and I mean she did

01:22:13.720 significantly influence politics during that brief revolution in Naples I keep coming back to that

01:22:20.860 yeah like she like she was the you know nelson was there doing stuff so william was there but

01:22:25.520 like she if had she not been there like that could have all played out differently so it's

01:22:30.160 like you don't know her impact because it all kind of worked out okay but if she had not been

01:22:34.880 there it could have worked out worse i don't know like her significance i feel like i feel like six

01:22:39.320 or seven i was thinking six or seven as well i'm i'm trying not to like let the fact that she kind

01:22:45.700 have had those 10 years at the end of her life where she just was on the slow decline influence

01:22:50.620 because like even horatia her daughter i we didn't get to talk about her at the end but like

01:22:56.120 eventually she never publicly mentions her mother but she does adopt the surname nelson and name her

01:23:02.980 first child horatio nelson so like just because people at the end of emma's life like wrote her

01:23:09.080 off doesn't take away from her significance yeah the horatia thing is interesting because she

01:23:15.180 I think cannily I think she kind of knew like Nelson was like there's this big tomb like

01:23:21.180 that's the war hero and that's my father but like Emma is just like we just don't like her memory

01:23:26.940 was so ruined by the letters and then by like her dying a pauper and everything so the fact that

01:23:33.500 it's just too bad that because Horatia was there with her like Emma was a really hands-on mom as

01:23:37.820 much as she could be like clearly they had a close connection Horatia had to kind of cut her off and

01:23:44.440 pretend like she didn't know that was her mother and that's why you have a sexism bonus on this

01:23:48.980 show um but for significance let's say 6.5 okay well because i also said like oh she's she's well

01:23:56.940 known i'm like i had heard the name but i didn't really know this story and i kind of just knew

01:24:03.040 nelson but i confused him with wellington i'm like that's that war guy emma hamilton like maybe i've

01:24:08.160 heard of her so it's like she's not even to me before i did all this research she was not super

01:24:12.780 well-known but she is to british people within the context yeah okay so the sexism bonus i have

01:24:19.960 two prongs of this so the sexism bonus for listeners who may not know this is where we

01:24:24.200 give extra points because how much did sexism hold them back um how much more might they have

01:24:28.740 been able to accomplish a 10 out of 10 sexism historically has been somebody who like had an

01:24:33.420 affair and then was locked in a tower and then died because that held them back a lot yeah so 0.93

01:24:41.200 for her like on the okay so the two major things to me for her in terms of sexism bonus is the like 1.00

01:24:47.580 sex work sex trafficking epstein island teenage years um and that was her only option but then 1.00

01:24:56.680 on conversely she turned that into opportunity so yes but but she was demonized for her 0.98

01:25:07.000 relationship with nelson and how much how she wasn't able to inherit money how she couldn't 1.00

01:25:10.920 have a bank account. So like, I feel like as a young person, it affected her.

01:25:17.760 Yeah. Like even though she, even though she grew out of it and succeeded, like we've said there

01:25:23.860 was probably a lot of trauma there. And like, if she did have that secret first child, like before

01:25:28.580 she even knew Greville or Nelson, like that's a whole other thing that we just don't even know

01:25:33.460 how she was feeling. And then like the, at the end of her life, her like position really does

01:25:39.720 depend on her proximity to men and like they're the ones not upholding promises and kind of putting

01:25:48.340 her down like she's good as a society hostess and like a curiosity but not much else like her

01:25:55.600 options become very very limited once the men she's connected to are out of the picture which 1.00

01:26:00.760 i hate yeah i hated that she in that like before she was a debtor's person like she was spending 0.98

01:26:07.700 money she was going to parties just so she could see and be seen to meet people who could maybe 1.00

01:26:11.520 she thought would like she thought these people were her friends and she's still giving them

01:26:17.120 charity and handouts money but then they won't support her it's like she thinks the best of

01:26:22.820 people so like i think she's is it an eight or a nine is it really high because just like her

01:26:29.960 like what happened to her in her it's like it's tricky because there's been stories of people who

01:26:35.240 like we've done this podcast who like are courtesans or sex workers and it's like well

01:26:38.660 that's a society and they so they use this but then they were able to thrive like peg plunkett

01:26:44.820 was a she was like a brothel owner she's like a sex worker from brothel owner and it's like 1.00

01:26:48.680 sexism didn't really work against her because she was able to make a career she gamed the system 0.99

01:26:53.260 yeah but i don't see emma gaming the system so much like she was no she's i mean she's still 0.98

01:26:58.760 iced out of she's still iced out of the british court like she's never accepted fully yeah so

01:27:04.880 i think it's a really high sexism bonus i think and a lot of that like part of that comes from

01:27:10.780 the first part of her life um but a lot of it comes from that the end years where it's just 0.81

01:27:17.180 like she was completely fucked over by you know primogeniture and like only men could inherit 0.81

01:27:21.360 and the fact she had daughters like everything like that was her like her husband like sir 0.98

01:27:27.960 william got permission from the king to marry her but then queen charlotte wouldn't let her

01:27:31.360 into society it's like but but your husband the husband is in the privy council like you're fine

01:27:37.360 with him being married to her but not actually her it's just it makes me like when I was reading

01:27:44.140 the biography I forget if I said in this episode or the previous one where I was like I bought it

01:27:49.600 from the library and I was like oh my like the e-book and it was due and I was like well I'm

01:27:53.060 sure the story's gonna wrap up soon and that just like the the fact that she was struggling for 10

01:27:57.900 years. Like, and it just kept getting worse and worse. I'm just like, how is this going to end?

01:28:04.240 Are you looking up? Are you looking up comparison points on past sexism bonuses?

01:28:09.800 No, I'm just adding up what this total would be. So it's a 32.5, which anything above 30 on the

01:28:15.320 show is like quite significant. 32.5. I'm just entering her here to see where this puts her.

01:28:22.560 in terms of this series actually in terms of this era mary wallstonecraft has a 32 and i think

01:28:29.840 oh and the two of them never overlapped as far as i know but i think they also they were

01:28:35.980 similarly similarly their letters were published and it ruined their reputation

01:28:39.660 they have that yeah there you go they both went to france during the revolution 0.97

01:28:43.540 for idiotic reasons marie antoinette has a 32 um this is i i can live with this yeah 0.95

01:28:51.800 yeah this is kind of an it's kind of like women who their reputations were so ruined 0.85

01:28:58.580 like you had a lot of points yeah charlotte corday has a 33.5 okay so this is there's people 0.74

01:29:09.200 from her i this all makes sense to me i think she i just wish more people knew about her and like

01:29:15.540 knew more than what you see in the Vivian Leigh movie yeah well and also the fact that she is

01:29:22.800 it sort of reminds me a bit of like the wives of Henry VIII who are so often like Catherine

01:29:28.000 Aragon who's just like well she was married to Henry VIII it's like well she did so much other

01:29:31.020 stuff so the fact that Emma Hamilton it's like well she's remembered for Lord Nelson it's like

01:29:34.580 the whole first part of this book Nelson he was not there yeah that's not all she did anyway

01:29:42.400 Amanda thank you so much this was like I couldn't have done this without you it's it's a did you

01:29:48.480 know anything about Emma Hamilton before or very little I think I I knew the name like you I knew

01:29:55.040 the connection to Nelson I didn't even really know the art historical like there's so much you could

01:30:00.740 you could there's so many pictures you can just see her face and it's nice to now have the

01:30:05.640 background to that yeah it's just it's so interesting to think about she was the first

01:30:10.740 like famous model, like other people, like Horvath's Mancini had a lot of portraits done of

01:30:16.140 her, but she was famous for being herself. Like Emma Hamilton became famous because of her 1.00

01:30:20.080 modeling. Right. Right. And I don't know if that ever happened before. 0.95

01:30:23.460 Yeah. It was definitely happening to a couple of different people at this time. I'm thinking of,

01:30:27.120 um, Elizabeth Patterson who married Napoleon's brother and like same kind of thing became famous.

01:30:35.040 Yeah. Because she was connected to royalty, but also because she was like an artist muse, 0.97

01:30:38.960 uh in Baltimore where she lived so it's happening to a couple different women at this time but

01:30:44.820 maybe we found the first Emma yeah this is the certainly I don't know the fact that she's like

01:30:52.980 the most painted woman well it's because Romney was obsessed with her and painted like yeah but

01:30:58.020 it's like not because of who she's connected to like yes she's introduced to him because of her

01:31:03.920 connection to Greville, but really from there, it's like all, all Emma. Like she's just so good

01:31:10.420 at modeling in a way that nobody else was. Anyway. Yeah. Um, Amanda, how can people keep up with you?

01:31:17.120 Um, if they want to know what you're, what you're doing, you have two podcasts.

01:31:21.960 Yes. So I do the weekly podcast. Well, twice weekly, if you want Royal news and specifically

01:31:27.740 to like pick apart Royal media that is off with their headlines, which I co-host with Meredith

01:31:32.820 constant. Um, and I'm also on the new show rain check. That's a pun R E I G N, uh, with Newsner

01:31:40.720 that is out weekly as well. And then you can follow me on social media at matter of fact,

01:31:46.600 M A T T A underscore of underscore fact. And over on Substack, I have a twice weekly newsletter as

01:31:53.600 well, uh, called the fascinator. And you have a book you've written. Do you know when it's going

01:31:58.720 to come out tentatively april of next year so the thing with my book is it's written the editor is

01:32:06.040 done with it but we're getting original illustrations for it so it's currently in the

01:32:10.460 design phase so i'm so excited it'll be just like this beautiful like art object as well as being a

01:32:17.580 book all about the royal world like i'm basically selling it as it's a field guide to royalties i'm

01:32:23.640 very excited but yeah april 2027 so hopefully i'll have more information on that later this

01:32:29.780 year and like pre-order links and stuff but um that is yeah i'll be an author this time next

01:32:35.120 year probably fantastic and i am an author as well you are an author rebel of the regency the

01:32:41.300 scandal saga of carolina brunswick britain's queen without a crown a woman who at one point

01:32:45.780 wore a fake maltese cross necklace because that's what emma hamilton was doing and she wanted to

01:32:51.140 and she was she was a trend chaser she just loved a trend she loved a trend she loved a moment um

01:33:00.220 it's a funny she just likes to be included is one thing i learned about caroline yeah yeah she 0.74

01:33:08.100 kind of like emma hamilton she just like she was a real she loved to be at a party she loved to be

01:33:12.900 around people she her energy was really fun um and it was really it was fun to write this biography

01:33:18.380 of her this like very little known person from british history who like emma hamilton intersects

01:33:23.160 with like everybody um jane austen is in the book mary shelley is in the book like all these people

01:33:27.500 anyway my book is called rebel the regency and you can pick it up um wherever you get books in

01:33:32.200 north america and in europe and in australia and new zealand and lots of places there's a drinking

01:33:37.860 game in my book there is in the footnotes i do caution if you're gonna do the drinking game

01:33:43.900 um do it on a day when you read slow or read slow if you're yeah exactly if you're gonna like

01:33:51.180 break it up yeah but anyway so people can get that and you can follow me online i'm on all

01:33:56.160 the places at vulgar history pod and amanda thank you so much this was it's such a story

01:34:03.340 like highs and lows i hate ending a story it's like and then everything got depressing

01:34:06.780 and then more depressing tragically died over the course of several weeks that's why i like

01:34:12.800 you doing the rankings at the end because you get to revisit happier times as you're

01:34:16.980 considering. So always, always a pleasure. It's always, thank you so much. Um, and to

01:34:22.200 all my listeners, keep your pants on and your tits out. 1.00

01:34:26.320 Vulgar History is researched, scripted, and hosted by Anne Foster. Editor is Christina 0.99

01:34:30.780 Lumagi. Theme music is by The Severn Duo. Regency era artwork by Karen Moynihan. Social

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Vulgar History - April 15, 2026

Regency Era It Girl Emma Hamilton (part two)

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