00:08:15.160Centuries later, I think in the mid-20th century, they found a statue, the head, the statue head of Augustus under a Kushite temple.
00:08:31.740And the stories go, according to the Roman stories, that the Queen Amaranus broke the statue and buried the statue head under the Kushite temple.
00:08:44.980I'm assuming it's because it was an insult against Augustus Caesar.
00:08:50.660And really why the Romans probably didn't say anything about it is because they really didn't make a big deal about it when they went back to Rome.0.75
00:08:59.200It's because they didn't want to be defeated, in my opinion, didn't want to be defeated by an eastern queen, a woman.
00:09:06.380And the Romans were very patriarchal in that.
00:09:36.080Like I said, we don't really know much.
00:09:37.440All we do know is that she led her forces against the Roman forces and defeated them.
00:09:46.020And I think most of the reasons why we don't know much about her is because, one, yes, we know much about her from the Roman sources,
00:09:57.380But the Romans are not going to talk more about her in their history or their sources because she is a woman first and she's this Eastern woman.
00:10:09.220And they had to deal with Cleopatra for how many years in Egypt.
00:10:14.620So the fact that they were defeated by this queen, who's also an Eastern queen, really would have made them not write too much information about this woman.
00:10:31.760And also, again, we haven't deciphered the Kushite language.
00:13:06.300And these women in these three different, unique and diverse cultures led their armies against this patriarchal, imperialistic, militaristic empire.
00:13:28.600I just think the Romans must have been like, again, another, another army being led by a woman again, like just, I don't know.
00:13:38.040I think that's where it's, you mentioned that what we know about Amaranus is mostly, almost entirely from what the Romans wrote, which is a thing that I find so frustrating too, is that's her enemy.
00:13:52.320So of course, they're not going to say a lot about her. They're not going to say flattering things about her.
00:13:57.380Yeah. But I think one of the reasons, unlike the Egyptian language, we haven't deciphered, we haven't figured out how to read the Kushite language. So probably if we learn when we do that, we'll find out more.
00:14:13.680But the issue would be with Bullica because the ancient Celts didn't write anything down as far as we know.
00:14:23.600Maybe we'll find something that they wrote, but so far they haven't written anything.
00:14:28.300So what information that we get for her is mostly on Roman sources.
00:14:35.340At least we know for Amaranus that there is the Kushite language waiting to be learned or translated.
00:14:44.980And then, of course, the Egyptians wrote down everything too.
00:14:48.620So there are written records in the Kushite language.
00:14:52.300It's just no one's, we can't, there's not the Rosetta Stone for Kushite language.
00:14:58.320We haven't figured out how to read it yet.
00:15:02.040So what else can you tell me about the Kushite culture or kingdom?
00:15:07.320So you said it's near Sudan or South Sudan would be where it is now?
00:15:13.200Yes, that's where the Kushites, ancient Kushites would be.
00:15:17.820Because that's one of the first places, like again, you know way more about all of this than I do,
00:15:22.500but I think that's one of the first places where society started was in that Sudan region.
00:15:28.400So it must be a very ancient culture, I'm assuming.
00:15:31.140There are more pyramids in Nubia than there is in Egypt.
00:15:37.740I think I saw, I don't know, just a meme or something about that recently.
00:15:42.820Some of them had been destroyed or blown up or something like that.
00:15:47.760And the Kushai kingdom was established in 1070 BC.
00:15:56.280and the capital moved to Moray in 591 BC
00:16:43.880We were able to translate it into Egyptian,
00:16:47.860but so far from what I've read and researched,
00:16:51.460No one has been able to translate the ancient Kushite language.
00:16:57.800It's that thing about, I forget what the saying is, but you know, the history is written by the people who won the battles and things like that.
00:17:07.500So the Romans went out and tried and they successfully conquered so many areas.
00:17:16.060We know their version of events and how things happen.
00:17:18.980So I'm impressed that you're able to share as much as you can. We know that she lost an eye. We know that she existed. We know that she led an army. So the fact that you can even piece that much together is impressive, considering that we have to rely on the Romans and what they wanted to share.
00:17:37.400And there are no conflict between the Kushites and the Ptolemies, which is Cleopatra's dynasty.
00:18:35.780This is also interesting to me because, I mean, I haven't studied ancient history except for what, I guess, what's been in popular culture.
00:18:45.320So I've heard about the Romans and the Greeks and the Egyptians, but you're just making me think again about what about all the other cultures who were around at that time?
00:18:55.720Last week on the podcast, I was talking with Imran al-Badawi, and he was talking about the cultures of ancient Arabia.
00:19:02.780that also really opened my eyes about there's so many cultures that are not generally known.
00:19:09.060They're not celebrated as much, but those cultures are all still so ancient and so interesting.
00:19:14.520And I think it's really important to learn about them and to talk about the history of these places.
00:19:20.200And the thing about it, a lot of these ancient cultures had interaction with the ancient Greeks and the ancient Romans.
00:19:26.720There's rumors of a lost Roman legion in China.
00:19:32.120nobody knows how people some scholars say most scholars say that it's a legend there's no proof
00:19:38.400that that lost legion ended up in china but for a story like that whether or not
00:19:45.900it that's true the story is true for a story like that to have to take on life the romans had to
00:19:54.140have had interaction with the ancient chinese whether or not the legion went into got lost
00:20:01.460in China or not. Whether it's true or not, for that story to be alive, the rumors probably had
00:20:08.640some contact with the Chinese. Which is so interesting. I love hearing about examples.
00:20:15.000I mean, this is much, much, much later, but you probably know there's a story,
00:20:19.480I think it's in the Renaissance era, where Yasuke, the Black samurai who was in Japan,
00:20:25.600Like just hearing about people from hundreds and hundreds and thousands of years ago, interacting with different cultures is really interesting to me because I think also just the Western sort of educational system, it's kind of suggests there are all these cultures and they were all distinct and they never interacted with each other until, you know, the British started colonizing or whatever.
00:20:51.880But no, all these cultures were trading with each other.
00:20:55.680They were interacting with each other back as soon as you if you could travel to another country, you were going to go there.
00:21:01.740And the thing about it too, Western concept of the ancient world focus so much on Greece, Rome, maybe Egypt, maybe Persia, and maybe then ancient Israel, ancient Kenya, but that's a separate Near East.
00:21:25.360So maybe, but then they forget that there are other cultures like the Kushites that were interacting with these ancient Greeks and ancient Romans.
00:21:43.340Because I think one of the, on your podcast last week, one of the women that he spoke about, she stood up against the Romans also.
00:21:55.360so uh zenobia zenobia the other one oh mavia yeah so the ancient arabs were
00:22:05.500the romans had the contact with the ancient arabs so and that's another woman who
00:22:11.500opposed the romans it's it's an interesting thing that they were so
00:22:16.680that roman women especially in athens i think sorry that's greece but um ancient roman women
00:22:23.980had very few rights and then they were going to these countries where women were standing up and0.94
00:22:28.720maybe that made them even more think oh if you give women more independence then they're gonna1.00
00:22:33.280they're gonna fight against us but then because they kept fighting but then ancient roman women
00:22:37.800had more rights than ancient greek women that's true can you talk about that because i know more
00:22:43.320about ancient rome ancient greek women that's what i was thinking about like they can you describe0.58
00:22:49.440what they lived like and now we're just gonna take a break for a word from our sponsors
00:22:54.700hungry now now what about now whenever it hits you wherever you are grab an oh henry bar to
00:23:09.180satisfy your hunger with its delicious combination of big crunchy salty peanuts covered in creamy
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00:26:54.360In theory, when the marriage was arranged in Rome, both parties could consent in theory.
00:27:01.960That doesn't always necessarily always happen, but if they're getting married, the father, the parents would ask both the male and the daughter.
00:27:11.480Women could divorce in Rome, and it was informal.
00:27:15.620Like I said, a woman could just leave and take her diary with her.0.99
00:27:19.420she could remarry with no issue. Classical Roman law didn't allow domestic violence,1.00
00:27:29.060but like modern times, these things, the law didn't prevent it from happening.0.89
00:27:35.080Wife beating was enough grounds for divorce or other legal action against the husband.1.00
00:27:43.320Women had right to own property. They engaged in business and trade.1.00
00:27:47.620Some women had careers in both so-called male careers and so-called female careers.1.00
00:27:56.720Like I said, big factories, they owned businesses, they became midwives, actresses, doctors, bankers.1.00
00:28:40.440and i think in ancient egypt they could do that too so gain vast contrast but we know in ancient
00:28:48.600greece they couldn't do all they couldn't do half the things that i mentioned
00:28:52.160well ancient greece they could do it it's one of the worst times to be a woman i think ancient
00:29:02.820greece yes or just the most limited right we we like to imagine the romans being patriotic and
00:29:08.420they will and they will match you and everything but they really did for the time period that we're
00:29:15.620talking about they really did give their women a lot of rights so that's funny because you mentioned0.74
00:29:22.900the one thing women couldn't do is go into politics and then that's they kept they were0.94
00:29:27.440invading so amaranis they would be like oh another woman leader the one thing women can't do yeah0.70
00:29:33.920But this is interesting what you're saying. It reminds me of something I keep having to remind myself because just the way that I was taught history was with this assumption that things were bad and they've been getting better ever since, like for women or also like for black people or for marginalized people.0.98
00:29:58.360and it's like no there's been societies that have been good or better for certain people and then
00:30:04.860there's ones that were worse for certain people and it's not it's not getting better and better
00:30:09.160and better so talking about places like Cush where it's like women had more rights there
00:30:14.080than they did and I don't know if you think about England in the 1600s or something like
00:30:21.540there's been places I don't know but do you have any thoughts about that just the fact that
00:30:28.280It's not history. It's not like things were bad and now they're better, like they're better in some ways.
00:30:33.120We have more medicine, for instance. We have, I don't know, central heating.
00:30:38.420But in terms of culture, history is, I think, it's fluid when I mean fluid in that way that it depends on the culture you're talking about.
00:31:17.600And as history moves along, it became worse and ancient cooking became worse.1.00
00:31:23.840So a Kushai woman in 10 BC can rule or do agriculture, farm or whatever, and lead an army.1.00
00:31:38.060But a woman in 14th century Europe couldn't.0.58
00:31:44.920Well, unless you were just one of these rare queens, I mean, in 1600, I know like in 1589, Elizabeth I led her army against the Spanish girl Armando, but that was a very rare thing in that time period.0.50
00:32:01.960While in ancient Kush, women could do that.
00:32:05.980In the ancient Celts, the women could do that.
00:32:08.680um kelp they describe them as a barbarian they talk about how they let their women0.89
00:32:15.560lead and everything the romans just bastardized everybody
00:32:19.700especially the cultures that had women leaders they just
00:32:24.980bastardized everybody and they did it with cleopatra but good thing that we have egyptian0.76
00:32:31.060records oh i know i hated um who who is the person who wrote the roman person wrote was it0.68
00:32:37.980i forget his name anyway the roman records about cleopatra are so annoying and it reminds me of
00:32:44.400the way that people talk about powerful women today it was like oh she was whatever it's like0.99
00:32:50.400her she talked too loud and she was too shrill and she was too bossy and just the things that1.00
00:32:55.740people say now about she was a slut but she wasn't she had two men two men and she stayed1.00
00:33:02.880with them until she stayed with Julius Caesar until he was assassinated and she stayed with0.96
00:33:08.820Marc Antin until they suicides I know I think that's so wild that there's the Cleopatra has
00:33:14.580this reputation of being so sexual where exactly what you just said she she was with two men
00:33:20.060like she had children with two men she was faithful to them and it's like just it's so
00:33:27.240similar to me the way that it's like oh well she was a powerful woman so that must mean she was a
00:33:31.460witch or she used her sexuality to get ahead where it's like or maybe she was smart and clever
00:33:37.680and julie caesar obviously liked that and we like that i mean they it was a different compared to0.98
00:33:47.680their culture i could see how they they will like that because in roman women will most for the most0.92
00:33:56.080but we're not allowed to have this intellectual, political, charming, suave about them.1.00
00:37:13.960And then, you know, the whole 15th, 15th century.
00:37:19.800Sometimes I get the centuries wrong because I'm thinking 14th, 15th, 15th, 14th century, around that time.0.50
00:37:30.100And then they went, the Europeans went there and took black people and enslaved them.0.64
00:37:39.960And then, of course, the scramble for Africa.0.65
00:37:42.120So she stopped any European army from conquering Africa for a thousand, and not a thousand years, basically. It wasn't until a thousand years later that any European went into Africa.
00:38:04.040that's massive and i think i think that that's also a really important thing to bear in mind
00:38:09.940because it is black history month and of course a lot of the black history that's discussed is post
00:38:16.840you know 15th century stuff like the the slave trade and things like that which is all really
00:38:24.020important to talk about but everything you're saying it's like but there was black people
00:38:27.980in africa for thousands of years before that happened and there's interesting stories and
00:38:33.380important things happened yeah africa was not colonized for a thousand years i believe because
00:38:40.500of this woman she stopped them she stopped those imperialistic romans dead in their tracks they
00:38:48.180never decided they never looked there again yeah that's huge so actually that brings us very
00:38:55.820beautifully to i had sent you a while ago so the the way that we score women who we talk about on
00:39:02.080the show so there's four categories i think we were just talking about one of them is significance
00:39:09.560like what is the person's how did they change history so if you're scoring her on a scale of
00:39:17.020zero to ten how significant do you think she was i feel like this is a ten yes i that's a ten
00:39:23.300absolutely everything you just said even though we don't know about her um her actions makes it a ten
00:39:31.300yeah what we know about her is she stopped them coming in and that's that's a straight up 100.61
00:39:39.060so we also have the category of what i call scandalousness so like how scandalous was it0.99
00:39:46.060in her time how would i guess i guess the people in cush are they're clearly okay with a woman0.99
00:39:52.380being in charge but i think she would have been more scandalous to the romans1.00
00:39:56.060she'll be in one scandalous rumor especially after that whole debacle of cleopatra
00:40:01.640so for a scandalous what would you think on a scale of zero to ten she wouldn't be scandalous0.55
00:40:07.740for the kushites but she would be for the romans so trying to put these two perspectives together0.94
00:40:15.720i'll just give her a five that's what i'm thinking too kind of because it's yeah to
00:40:23.920the romans it's one thing but to the and that's what's interesting too when i am you know scoring
00:40:28.800people on this podcast it depends like often i see the same thing where to one group they're
00:40:36.080very scandalous but maybe to the country where they're from it's like yeah that's okay so i think
00:40:41.380a five makes sense so the next category i call scheminess which just means how smart what kind
00:40:48.340of schemes what kind of plans and were they did she accomplish her goals i think this is another0.99
00:40:55.420high score this is a 10 she accomplished her goals because that peace treaty benefited the
00:41:02.280it didn't benefit the romans that detail is so great actually i love that that's we know so few
00:41:10.880things about her but we do know about that and she got everything she wanted in that negotiation
00:41:15.240she won and then and then she got this peace treaty so the final category so it's the sexism
00:41:23.360kind of bonus so this is where if somebody was held back at all by sexism they can get a few0.99
00:41:28.780more points here i i think the culture she lived in the fact that she's able to do everything she0.96
00:41:36.020did i don't i don't think for her sexism got in her way very much no i don't think so it didn't0.87
00:41:42.320i don't think so but the fact that we don't know much about her i think that sexism
00:41:49.700weighs that too because the romans didn't write her down true because again the male ego
00:41:57.660i think male ego prevented that didn't want to write about their defeat as much and well the
00:42:06.220fact that we can't translate her language it has nothing to do with sexism but the fact is that
00:42:11.240the Romans didn't write much about her is sexism so but she wouldn't have experienced sexism in
00:42:23.940ancient Kush so I think that would probably be a six seven yeah let's say maybe a seven
00:42:32.900I agree it's the same thing as with the scandalous it's like well on the one hand0.92
00:42:37.560like this wouldn't have gotten the way of her life but on the other hand yeah just the way that
00:42:41.340the romans had it been a male commander they might have written more detail about what happened but
00:42:48.760it wasn't so let me just see so then her total is 32 and on the scale of everyone i've talked about
00:42:58.120that's like definitely towards the top who's the top the top is uh fredigand who is a medieval
00:43:05.880french queen um yeah no about her what do cleopatra rank oh cleopatra is below her
00:43:15.400i'm just looking up to see who else do i have from ancient times
00:43:20.100so enjinga is a 36 enjinga batamba in terms of black history african um agrippina from rome she
00:43:29.080is a 31 really yeah okay cleopatra is a 28 interesting and i mean it's a very this scale
00:43:40.040just very much depends on my mood and how i feel that day i would feel like cleopatra would have
00:43:45.260rated higher than agar i think i don't know it might have been the thing with cleopatra where
00:43:54.240where she was from she wasn't i don't remember it was a long time ago i did cleopatra i might
00:44:00.580score her differently if i did right now but i think for cleopatra it might have come down to
00:44:05.680the significance where she is very well known but eventually she lost i think and that might
00:44:13.520have been where she she didn't get those points yeah but i would think i don't really thought is a
00:44:18.500a great um roman woman powerful yeah i think with agrippina she got a lot of points for1.00
00:44:27.740scandalousness because she poisoned a lot of people hey you gotta get it out there for women1.00
00:44:34.640in rome she gotta do what she gotta do oh no i respect the hell out of agrippina she did1.00
00:44:41.340everyone she poisoned was for a good reason and she came out on top but then i think she also got0.89
00:44:47.720a lot of points for sexism because she was murdered by her own son yes so just kind of the
00:44:52.720details of it i agree i'm not i don't remember why cleopatra just got a 28 i think that was one
00:44:57.800of the first ones i did and i was being more careful with the scores i didn't want to go too
00:45:02.580high and i also think that cleopatra somebody said cleopatra has been done over and over again
00:45:09.480although most of what she's been done about it is based on roman sexualization and roman
00:45:17.320propaganda but she's overdone I think that's the thing too when I'm scoring people on the podcast
00:45:26.480I try to look at them not how famous they are now or their pop culture but just looking at their
00:45:33.320story and how do I react to it but yeah Cleopatra you're right it's so much it's similar to like in
00:45:40.040history I study more the Tudor England it's like Anne Boleyn has been talked about so much and so
00:45:46.540much of it is based on the propaganda about her that she was a witch that you know it's yeah so
00:45:54.440to look at people and what they actually did that's what I try to do I like Anne Boleyn
00:45:59.000it's a great story I think she was Henry's best wife yeah I don't know I I think she was certainly
00:46:08.600such an impressive person I like with Cleopatra I think she was also not necessarily beautiful
00:46:14.820but she was so smart and that's what people really were drawn to about her but but the thing
00:46:21.760about it i think he's he do henry change after his accident whatever whatever psychological and
00:46:29.560physical things happen after that johnson accident totally turned his um character
00:46:37.480when people don't know about the henry before that so people know about the henry after that
00:46:44.160well exactly because before that he was yeah I don't know if it's similar to um what people
00:46:51.960talk about with the I think it's called CTE like the football players who get this
00:46:56.420from repeated head injuries like Henry VIII that reminds me of that where he just had this
00:47:01.140complete personality change after this head injury if it's a similar thing yeah and the
00:47:07.740thing with Anne Boleyn too was she was not that this is an Anne Boleyn episode but she wasn't
00:47:12.640young like if all that henry wanted was a son he would have found some 16 year old or something
00:47:17.180i think by the time he and ann blen got married she was 30 or something like it was her as a
00:47:22.780person it wasn't just i want a son yeah i think he had when he was going after ann he was he had
00:47:31.920fallen in love with her not because like you said not me like you said like you said if he wanted
00:47:40.460If it was just because of her son, he would marry somebody younger.
00:47:45.700No, and it's interesting, just in terms of famous women in history, like Cleopatra and Anne Boleyn have a similar thing where the men loved her and that made everyone so suspicious.
00:47:57.140Like, why would a man love someone like this?0.97
00:49:15.860This is going to come out on, I think, the 14th.
00:49:18.260So just right after this, a couple of days later.
00:49:20.120So if you're interested to find out what little more that I didn't discuss in the podcast,
00:49:27.780You can subscribe to my Patreon or my Ko-fi to get the article.
00:49:34.880And I also write about goddesses, biblical women, and of course, sexual assaults and sometimes mental health.
00:49:45.460I want to say that I'm a member of your Patreon and I'm always happy when I get one of your updates in my email inbox to see what you're writing about and what you're up to.
00:49:55.560Yes, I have a merch store with mugs, t-shirts, stickers. There's this line since it's Black History Month called Black and Educated. So if you're inclined, you can buy those mugs.
00:50:12.480there is a line for feminism for if you are a feminist there is a line for if you're interested1.00
00:50:22.720in the goddess Kali so I have a line about all about the goddess Kali notebooks mugs everything
00:50:30.620I love seeing that you're on all the different places so that hopefully people can whatever
00:50:36.320wherever they are whichever social media website they're on like you're there and you're posting
00:50:40.420I love that you've been posting more on Instagram
00:50:43.040I've just been following you on Instagram
00:50:44.580so just about different, you were posting about makeup
00:52:06.780So I will put all of the links for all the ways you can follow Princess Unaika Auguste online and all the places where she is sharing her fabulous storytelling and all of her writings and thoughts.
00:52:17.460And if you want to follow this show, we're on Instagram at vulgarhistorypod, on TikTok at vulgarhistory, on Twitter, as long as it exists, at vulgarhistory.
00:52:28.220And you can also go to my website, which is vulgarhistory.com, where there's a place you
00:52:33.120can contact me if you have thoughts or feedback or suggestions of people to talk about on the0.99
00:52:37.100show, because I am constantly on the lookout for cool and interesting women to talk about