Vulgar History - Trans History： From Ancient Times to the Present Day

00:00:00.000 Hello, and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast. And today 1.00

00:00:16.700 is a Pride Month special. We're going to be talking today about trans history, by which

00:00:22.200 I mean both the history of trans people in going all the way back to the ancient world

00:00:26.960 and before, really. And also we're talking about a book called Trans History, colon,

00:00:31.820 a graphic novel. And so I have two guests on the show today who are the trans authors of this book.

00:00:37.880 Their names are Alex L. Combs and Andrew Ekett. And the book's full title is Trans History,

00:00:43.920 a graphic novel from ancient times to the present day. And this is a book that it's a nonfiction

00:00:49.060 full-color graphic novel. It's super cute looking and appealing. The art is so gorgeous

00:00:53.680 done by both of them together. And it really breaks down in very understandable, readable ways

00:01:00.380 for like lots of different age groups of people, both some notable people from trans history,

00:01:04.460 and then also the history itself, understanding of gender and things like that. And I do want to

00:01:10.860 mention that in this conversation, we talk about a few examples of people. And I just wanted to

00:01:15.800 make sure, because all of us were just so excited to talk to each other with the history. I want to

00:01:20.140 make sure you, the listeners, know a bit of detail about who we're talking about. So Hatshepsut is a

00:01:26.340 person who we mentioned, and Hatshepsut was a pharaoh of Egypt, like, incredibly long time ago.

00:01:32.920 Like, we're talking, like, 1500 BCE, like, an incredibly long time ago that Hatshepsut lived,

00:01:39.920 and they were a person who kind of blurred the lines of what gender could be and what it could

00:01:46.080 mean. To be a pharaoh in that context meant that you were portrayed, if you picture sort of the

00:01:51.320 ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs and stuff, you might have seen sort of like the long pointy beard and

00:01:55.740 the way that you're posing. It was a masculine position. Hatshepsut also presented at times as

00:02:01.740 a woman. And so it's an interesting story and that's, we talk about it, but I just want you

00:02:06.460 to know who Hatshepsut is for the context. We also talk in this conversation about someone

00:02:11.120 called Elagabalus. And Elagabalus was a Roman emperor for like three years in the early,

00:02:17.940 I don't know what you would call it, the early common era, like around the year 218, common era.

00:02:24.220 Elagabalus was born in Syria and was Roman emperor briefly and was a real character.

00:02:32.020 And we'll talk about that more. But in terms of trans history, Elagabalus also had varied

00:02:37.560 gender presentations, which we'll talk about. Antonio de Arauzo is somebody else that we

00:02:42.740 discuss here, who we have discussed in previous episodes of this podcast, like a week or two ago,

00:02:47.000 actually. So born as Catalina de Arauzo in Spain in 1585. Later on, they would become known as

00:02:54.900 Antonio de Arauzo. That became their official name later on. And Antonio, born in Spain,

00:03:00.260 traveled to South America during the time of like the conquests, the conquistadors, 0.63

00:03:03.900 when they were going to various South American countries, and was a pretty crappy person and 0.67

00:03:09.800 murdered a lot of people for often very preposterous reasons. And so we talk about

00:03:14.200 Antonio in this conversation as well. Another name that comes up is La Chevalier d'Anne,

00:03:20.780 who was a person born in France in 1728, who served as a diplomat, as a spy, a soldier,

00:03:27.200 and a sword fighter and also is a very notable figure from trans history. And just giving you

00:03:34.820 some context about all these people and who they all were just so you can best enjoy this

00:03:39.100 conversation that I'm having that you're about to hear with authors of trans history, a graphic

00:03:43.980 novel from ancient times to the present day. And the author's names again are Alex L. Combs and

00:03:48.440 Andrew Ekett. So I'm joined today by Alex L. Combs and Andrew Ekett, who are the co-creators

00:04:00.700 of an amazing new book called Trans History, a graphic novel from ancient times to present day.

00:04:05.860 They're both in the same room. So you wrote the book together and we'll talk about that,

00:04:10.100 but welcome Alex and Andrew. Hi. Thanks so much for having us.

00:04:15.240 It's nice to see you both. Yeah. Well, just so that the listeners know, your book has

00:04:19.880 like pictures of you in it as well. And I'm like, you look just like your pictures. Aw.

00:04:24.320 Awesome. And just so they know my voice, this is Alex and this is Andrew.

00:04:31.000 And so I'm going to ask you, the first question I want to ask you, it's like

00:04:34.380 a big question, but it's also maybe a straightforward question for you at this point.

00:04:39.120 How would you describe trans history?

00:04:41.700 there is a there's a lot that goes into what could be considered trans history a lot of people

00:04:48.780 consider trans history to be like only uh involving like like uh transgender people as we

00:04:57.300 know them today but for our purposes we're including anyone who's like relevant to trans

00:05:07.060 history trans adjacent gender non-conforming because trans people have been around a lot

00:05:13.180 longer than people have been classifying them as trans no and your book really explains that really

00:05:19.300 point by point very very well where it's kind of like the classifications and the words and

00:05:24.360 the terminology and the understanding we have now they didn't have an ancient greece so it's or like

00:05:30.320 the other cultures that you're talking about so it's so it's a very expansive history i guess it's

00:05:35.900 just kind of, I had a guest on the podcast a few weeks ago, Claire Mead, who just described

00:05:40.120 gender shenanigans is what she called it. Just kind of like anytime, anytime it's not just like

00:05:45.780 a straightforward thing. So yeah, so this is kind of, exactly. So trans history is more than

00:05:50.520 the book and also the field. It's more than just what people might think of as today's

00:05:54.500 understanding of trans people. And could you give an example of one of the oldest stories

00:06:00.620 in your book because you begin like way back in history yeah sure so the first example we have in

00:06:08.500 there is of some cuneiform that was found in ancient mesopotamia um they didn't actually

00:06:15.680 have the statue that the cuneiform went with it was broken but they think it might have been

00:06:22.480 similar to another statue they found of a temple priest, singer, something, holy person named

00:06:31.800 Sillam Abzuta. And this person has a very interesting looking statue. So the cuneiform,

00:06:39.180 it was translated by the British museum curator at the time, who translated it as a hermaphrodite.

00:06:48.560 but we have quoted another historian who translates it as person man woman and so

00:06:58.260 if you look at the statue it's really interesting because they kind of do look a little bit gender

00:07:04.460 and ambiguous and this was ancient mesopotamia so i think that's the oldest example we have

00:07:12.280 well it's super old and that's part of what i think is really interesting and really important

00:07:17.160 for people to know which is just gender it's not like once upon a time there's like men and women

00:07:21.800 and now we're in this time where it's like that's changed it's like no like the original thing was

00:07:26.260 like more than one like more than two genders it was all these genders and you have so many

00:07:30.260 examples from the ancient world that you talk about how did you find them like just specifically

00:07:36.780 the ones from the like super ancient world like how did you even go about finding people to talk

00:07:41.200 about or statues to talk about in your book yes it's a small field that in some ways has only

00:07:48.840 been coming into its own in the past couple decades i guess maybe decade but people have

00:07:54.720 been doing this research for a long time um and i was actually surprised at how much information

00:08:01.460 and examples there really are out there we had to cut a lot one other ancient one i wanted to

00:08:08.780 include was a mummified person. And I made a bonus comic for that one called Mutamenu's Mummy.

00:08:17.100 So if people have pre-ordered the book, they'll get that as a bonus comic. And then I think by

00:08:23.520 the time this comes out, I'll probably put it online to read. So there's a lot of other ancient

00:08:28.880 like examples of, do you remember where we heard about Zilmabzuta?

00:08:33.560 of Salim Mzuta, it was probably through Cheryl Morgan, who's quoted in the book, because she

00:08:40.460 has a really good write-up about that on Notch's blog. So in putting together the book too, like

00:08:47.380 you said, like there's more that you want to include, but you couldn't include. So what were

00:08:51.520 sort of the criteria for like which stories you wanted to put in? Like when you, like if we step

00:08:57.900 all the way back to when you started the first idea of this book, like were there a couple people

00:09:01.800 you're like this one this one this one and then you found others or like how did you decide who

00:09:07.020 to include so we had a really long list of people we were considering including or examples at one

00:09:15.420 point we considered including myths but then we were like no let's just stick to like real people

00:09:21.540 and real artworks that were like left by people um so a lot of it ended up being shaped by sort of

00:09:30.920 once we got what each chapter, what the themes are going to be, we found that certain stories

00:09:38.660 sort of exemplified those themes better than others. So that's how we ultimately had to make

00:09:43.780 those decisions as to what to include. Another one that I'd love to have you talk about is

00:09:50.120 Hatshepsut, the Egyptian pharaoh, which, you know, ancient Egypt is like, for me as a little kid,

00:09:57.460 it was like my biggest obsession. Like I loved reading about King Tat and the pyramids and

00:10:01.140 everything. And I know there's a lot of other people like that. Hatshepsut's story is not as

00:10:05.360 well known as like Cleopatra or other people. So can you talk about that story?

00:10:10.280 Sure. Absolutely. So that one super fascinated me as well. I've always thought ancient Egyptian

00:10:15.960 art was so cool. And I think it just really captures the imagination because it's so ancient

00:10:23.820 And we have this writing and everything, but we really, it's really a culture that's really different from anything we know now, right?

00:10:33.680 So we can't ever fully understand it.

00:10:37.060 And I think that's part of what was driving me so much with my curiosity is because it's like, ultimately, you can't ever have the full story.

00:10:45.500 um but I think it's weird that Hatshepsut isn't better known because um she left like so many

00:10:54.160 monuments um like at the time like have built more monuments than any other pharaoh that came

00:11:01.800 before and it's such a crazy story and if you read the entire story there's a lot more to it

00:11:09.260 than what we just had to conclude in the book for example like after her reign her um legacy they

00:11:16.660 tried to destroy it and so that's like another whole thing to consider as to why this decision

00:11:26.800 was made but we decided not to even go into that and just focus on the fact that she reigned for

00:11:32.920 50 years unchallenged, which is like, shows some level of acceptance. We don't know what she looked

00:11:41.640 like or presented like, but people believed that this person was a pharaoh and you had to be maybe,

00:11:50.100 we don't know, maybe kind of points to possibly a masculine gender presentation. But again,

00:11:55.760 like there's literally no way for us to know what. I love the part in, because it's a graphic novel,

00:12:02.140 so you really have the benefit of being able to add these visual elements but in that story

00:12:05.880 you show because this is kind of the part of what's so fascinating about Hatshepsut is that

00:12:10.560 she was a pharaoh which is traditionally a male position and so defined herself as a pharaoh so

00:12:18.780 and the statues what I'm thinking of is the image of where you have the statues that go kind of like

00:12:22.460 from very female presenting to less to more more masculine I think you say like this is me six

00:12:26.780 months on pharaoh or something it's so cute I was just like it's true like this really does look

00:12:32.020 like someone doing like a gender transition like statue yeah yeah it's interesting and then like

00:12:39.540 i also thought it was really interesting the story that was told about how um the gods decided

00:12:48.260 that this person would be basically both embodying a man and a woman that's what the birth story

00:12:56.680 that's recorded on the walls says and like okay do we you know believe this is really what happened

00:13:05.240 but you know i guess that depends on your religious views but it's you know scholars

00:13:12.320 have said it's fair to believe that they did believe that at the time you know to be what

00:13:17.200 really happened i just feel like the egyptian parts too must have been so fun for both of you

00:13:22.640 to work on as a visual medium

00:13:24.100 because you're going from like hieroglyphs,

00:13:26.220 like stories that are told visually.

00:13:27.720 And then how are you going to adapt those visually?

00:13:29.820 I just feel like that would have been a fun, fun task.

00:13:33.200 Yeah, like for some people

00:13:34.560 that we didn't have pictures of,

00:13:36.980 I did create a character.

00:13:40.020 But for Hot Shepsut,

00:13:41.420 there's just such a mystery around it.

00:13:43.120 It just didn't feel right

00:13:44.320 to like try to make up what this person looked like.

00:13:49.080 So in that case, I didn't end up doing that.

00:13:51.520 But I did do that for a few.

00:13:54.600 Someone else I wanted to bring up as well that I think is so interesting.

00:13:58.900 And I feel, well, so many of the stories in this and this, like, there should be a movie, there should be a limited series.

00:14:03.520 Like, all these stories, like, they're so interesting and weird.

00:14:06.620 Like, the people are such interesting characters.

00:14:09.460 But Elagabalus, the Roman emperor.

00:14:13.480 Yeah.

00:14:13.840 It's, like, just a wild story.

00:14:15.560 Elagabalus has been written about many, many times throughout history as one of like the craziest, most like out there, like brutal, like violent and sexual crimes, like all this crazy stuff.

00:14:37.480 I got this like really academic book when I was researching Elagabalus that was like Elagabalus fact or fiction and it had this like chart that had every single claim made about Elagabalus and whether it was unverifiable or verifiable and then whether the author thought it was likely true or not.

00:15:01.800 And they just broke down like every single claim that was made in these Roman histories that were written. 0.96

00:15:10.460 So some of the more wild stuff, questionable, but presumably said that she wanted to be a woman, pretty straightforwardly offered money for any surgeon who could come and give her a vulva and vagina. 0.90

00:15:29.880 and this was not something that could be done at the time but uh pretty straightforwardly said 0.96

00:15:37.600 this at least according to Cassius Dio he's kind of considered the the one that was like

00:15:44.500 more likely to was alive at the same time may have you know if not been in the same

00:15:54.860 you know room with Elogabalus at least you know heard stuff or interacted with people who had

00:16:02.820 where some of the other records are like hundreds of years later um but Cassius Steele also had a

00:16:12.220 really strong motivation to paint this person in a negative light because he was literally

00:16:19.280 basically hired by the person who was responsible for the murder of Heligopolis more or less

00:16:28.440 um it was the guards not Cerberus but in any case the next emperor

00:16:34.960 yeah so it's like again one of those things where we can't exactly know for sure um how much of it

00:16:43.260 is played up but there's probably something to it because if there wasn't people would have known

00:16:48.300 because they were alive all at the same time.

00:16:52.680 And I think something like that,

00:16:54.980 like the story of Elagabalus,

00:16:56.840 is even for somebody who is making up stories

00:17:01.000 hundreds of years later

00:17:02.620 to try and make another emperor seem better,

00:17:05.200 like having someone say,

00:17:06.640 I would like to hire a surgeon to give you this surgery.

00:17:10.000 It's like, that's not a thing

00:17:11.360 that people said about anyone else.

00:17:12.820 I don't think.

00:17:13.780 Exactly.

00:17:15.180 So it's not just like,

00:17:15.920 oh, they said this about everyone.

00:17:16.900 it's like why just and there were some things sorry excuse me there were some they repeated

00:17:23.160 like about Nero with like flowers falling from the ceiling and like suffocating people that they

00:17:29.660 also repeated for Elagabalus but you're right this that was not one of them when actually Elagabalus

00:17:35.440 is a good example of something else I wanted to talk to you about which I found really um fun in

00:17:40.480 your book which is like there's just like you look at the history of like any people like there's like

00:17:45.620 stories of people who are heroic and stories of people who are kind of shitty and it's just like

00:17:50.200 you're not just showing like hey here's some people and they're all heroic like you're really

00:17:54.340 looking at people as whole the whole story like elegant was a good example it's like yeah you 0.85

00:17:58.660 know maybe seemingly this was a trans person and also like this was a pretty terrible emperor so 0.67

00:18:04.360 like you're you're you're telling the story and making it a fun story to read you know and i

00:18:10.500 appreciated that. Awesome. I'm happy to say that. Someone else who also you mentioned in your book

00:18:17.220 in terms of like trans history and someone who's maybe not heroic is Antonio de Arraso.

00:18:24.140 Yes. We listened to your series on Arraso. It was really fun. Oh, good. Thank you.

00:18:32.400 It's such a crazy story. It's such a crazy story. I was so happy to see you visualizing

00:18:36.860 that we can talk about in a second but also I just want to talk to you about because I

00:18:40.640 I did that I recorded that like two or three years ago and at the time I was just like what

00:18:45.020 gender do I say what name do I use and it was like trying to figure it out and eventually I

00:18:50.280 went with she her and with saying Catalina as the name because I was like well that's this is the

00:18:56.140 memoir that they wrote and that's how they define themselves in the memoir but later I was thinking

00:19:00.040 it's like yeah like they wanted to sell books so if you sell books about like I was like a woman

00:19:05.820 Undercover as a man, that's more exciting to sell books. It wasn't like a realistic biography.

00:19:12.880 And so what I saw in your book is the historian quote saying, towards the end of their life,

00:19:18.100 they define themselves as an entity or arousal. That's what's on all these legal documents. So

00:19:21.860 retroactively, let's just use that name. And I was like, oh, that makes sense. I wish I had

00:19:25.320 made that decision. I think you made a fine decision. I think sometimes we worry a little

00:19:33.540 little bit too much about the past person's pronouns and I don't think he was that worried

00:19:39.200 about it um we chose he because I thought well that was the most time that he spent living as a

00:19:47.160 man and if I called him a woman he would probably cut my face but you know ultimately he doesn't

00:19:55.420 care you know he can't he's not here anymore and the focus on pronouns of a trans person is

00:20:02.900 a modern thing. So to him, it was different. It wasn't about the pronouns. You know, this was

00:20:09.740 just his experience. And as far as, you know, he was concerned, he's like, sure, yeah, I'm a woman

00:20:15.380 masquerading as a man. As far as being intelligible to anyone else in his society, that's how you're

00:20:23.080 going to explain it. You know, and he really doesn't give much to his interiority at all

00:20:28.800 in the book. So it's kind of like, we don't really know like about any kind of deep feelings of

00:20:35.780 gender. It just doesn't really share that. And that's something else too, that I think is really

00:20:40.260 interesting to consider about these stories and stories of trans people or gender shenanigans

00:20:46.200 throughout history. It's like, how much were people thinking about these things and how much

00:20:50.940 were people like, you know what, this is how I feel like presenting myself and off we go. Like,

00:20:54.380 here we go. Like, how much do you, did people think about it? Yeah. We don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

00:20:59.880 I don't know. Some people who are more introspective and had these thoughts about

00:21:04.720 this. And I think a lot of people just like today, just kind of want to live their lives

00:21:09.700 in whatever way is easiest for them to do that. And they're not going to like overanalyze it.

00:21:15.260 They're just going with that. Yeah. And I think it's interesting too, throughout your book,

00:21:19.760 you talk about, um, I guess, especially when we get into sort of more European cultures,

00:21:24.380 but a lot of the stories that we know about gender non-conforming people in history come 0.99

00:21:29.880 from criminal records because people were arrested where it's like we get some good

00:21:33.980 examples there of just kind of what society was like and how people were living but it's like

00:21:38.780 how many people were just out there living their life and they weren't arrested so we don't know

00:21:43.060 about it yeah yeah exactly i'm making assume probably a lot of people yeah yeah there's a

00:21:52.560 book called um i don't know if you came across it in your research it's called female husbands by

00:21:56.340 jen manion yeah that was really good yeah because i think that book is just talking again you get

00:22:02.740 into kind of people who run into legal trouble but also it's just like how many people especially

00:22:07.000 in like a lower in a big city like um or pioneer times or whatever it's like someone could just

00:22:14.300 come into town present in a certain way and everyone's like okay sure like yeah and they

00:22:18.240 just live their life and it's never they never cause any drama so it's like you never know about

00:22:22.600 it and everyone's just kind of chill other way that it comes out is after they die yeah

00:22:28.340 and somebody you know see looks at their body while they're preparing the body or that they

00:22:37.020 they don't ever necessarily pass perfectly but people just accept them because they have no

00:22:43.640 reason not to yeah well and that's just the thing where it's like we're hearing just so that the

00:22:50.080 listeners know if you haven't read the book yet like you're really going kind of like time period

00:22:53.860 by time period through and then at the time of like around Antonio de Arraso like European

00:22:59.020 colonization kind of these Eurocentric gender binaries are sort of imposed on the different

00:23:07.160 cultures and you talk about that in the book as well like how there were these understandings in

00:23:11.820 like india and in the south pacific of just kind of like more expansive gender understanding and

00:23:17.100 the europeans came in they're like what oh my gosh like that looks like a man in a skirt like 0.86

00:23:21.260 these backwards people and like kind of impose that so just kind of showing how that just how 0.97

00:23:27.120 so many cultures had had this expansive understanding and along with so many other 0.97

00:23:33.180 cultural things were just kind of shut down by europeans i think that's also an important aspect

00:23:37.180 to to keep in mind yeah and the really hypocritical thing about it is they knew there were people like

00:23:45.560 that in europe they just would treat them really badly and you know throw them to the spanish

00:23:52.860 inquisition or tell them they were sinners but which is what they did in the in the americas

00:23:59.100 yeah that's what they did in the americas too yeah and but then they would be like oh they would

00:24:04.700 use it as an excuse like we need to civilize this culture it's like you have people like that in

00:24:09.240 your culture too yeah well not exactly if you look at like antenna de arraso it's like and the pope

00:24:16.140 was cool with it like yeah but that's only because of his him being like a lieutenant and all this

00:24:23.120 stuff yeah it's just like there's so many you also talk a lot in the book and i find this really

00:24:29.200 interesting because i've come across this a few times just in my own research where um

00:24:34.700 the intersex people well can you talk about in your book there's several stories where people

00:24:40.920 are sort of like outed and they're like oh actually I'm intersex so like don't worry about

00:24:45.900 it like what the interrelation is between like a trans identity and intersex and how that shows up 0.56

00:24:51.040 yeah I mean throughout history and even until today a lot of trans people will say that they're

00:25:00.560 intersex in order to not get in trouble because for some reason in the legal system that is a

00:25:09.200 helpful argument when you're getting in trouble for not conforming to your assigned gender or

00:25:16.200 they will use it as a medical argument as to to lend legitimacy to getting treatment so like

00:25:28.960 for example like with michael in the michael dylan section with roberta cowell um they think

00:25:36.680 that in order for her to continue and get further treatment that he actually had performed an

00:25:42.900 orchiectomy on her and explain what that is she had her testicles removed and then she was able 0.70

00:25:50.280 to go to a legit doctor and say look i'm an intersex i don't have testicles him not knowing

00:25:57.500 that she had had them removed and then she from there she was able to access hormones and further

00:26:04.660 treatment just as an example um so yeah like it would just make it easier all around um

00:26:14.540 between not getting in trouble and accessing medical care and legal documents and then from

00:26:21.860 the intersex point of view

00:26:23.780 you have the story of

00:26:25.540 Herculean Bourbon who was

00:26:27.960 discovered to be intersex 1.00

00:26:29.540 when she admitted that she was

00:26:31.880 having a lesbian relationship

00:26:33.480 with a fellow teacher

00:26:35.260 and was forced to transition

00:26:37.920 to male

00:26:38.880 and that's still what happens

00:26:42.000 today, they forcibly transition 0.57

00:26:44.420 intersex infants

00:26:45.940 without their consent 0.53

00:26:47.080 usually to female without their consent

00:26:48.840 but yeah yeah this was a little bit different right yeah and I guess also just trying to think

00:26:55.300 about like putting my mind back and you know a time period where there wasn't there wasn't a lot

00:27:01.280 of medical knowledge everyone's just like let's just use leeches to cure everything like no one

00:27:05.260 really knew what was going on so like to have somebody where they kind of knew like there are

00:27:08.640 people who have these sort of like intersex type physical characteristics so if someone's like oh

00:27:14.040 I feel like you know my gender presentation doesn't match my body oh I must have life

00:27:18.420 so like people in the past would sort of conflate those together and then if that was sort of a way

00:27:22.400 that you could get understanding like you don't get into this in your book but I've done an episode

00:27:26.480 about the Chevalier Day on who was the the trans sword fighting like just icon and part of her

00:27:36.140 sort of explanation was just like oh yeah I was was basically explaining like oh I was intersex

00:27:40.960 like that's what's going on don't worry about it everybody where it's just kind of like it was

00:27:44.980 explained to me by another historian that's like well that's kind of what a lot of trans people did

00:27:49.260 in history to sort of explain well here's what's going on like because people were cool with that

00:27:53.620 but they weren't cool with like a person dressing like a different gender

00:27:57.920 i mean i wouldn't say they were cool with it

00:28:02.700 they sort of accepted it as an explanation yeah it seems like an it seemed like a natural

00:28:11.500 explanation for the behavior some sort of biological something like oh your your brain

00:28:17.340 is a different sex or there's some sort of hidden organs in there somewhere yeah some sort of some 0.89

00:28:23.240 sort of it's not you're not just a pervert you're you're a different kind of creature yeah yeah i 0.91

00:28:30.720 guess that's what i mean i don't mean cool with it i guess i more just mean like oh there's like 0.91

00:28:33.740 a medical explanation for this rather than just like oh you're insane yeah which doesn't mean

00:28:38.600 that they're gonna get good treatment either way there's a story in your book i forget the name 0.99

00:28:41.640 of the person who gave birth and then was like and then my penis 0.93

00:28:46.540 explain that to the listeners please and now for a quick advertising break 0.92

00:28:57.220 welcome to the realms of peril and glory explore the mechanically magical vistas of veil

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00:29:30.520 The war is over

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00:31:24.360 From the creators of Parkdale Haunt comes Woodbine, a podcast about monsters, dreams,

00:31:28.160 and changes, those you want and those you never saw coming. Season two arrives September 24th,

00:31:33.460 distributed by Realm. And we're back. Okay, so I don't know this is badass.

00:31:39.800 he told this story about being intersex in front of the spanish inquisition and the way he explained

00:31:50.240 it was because he had given birth when he was i think like 19 or something and he said the heat 0.98

00:31:57.960 of childbirth caused his penis to pop out and that he had a penis at the time of his inspection that 0.98

00:32:07.900 he had to have for his marriage which he passed so they're going well where is it now and he's 0.99

00:32:15.240 like oh well it fell off he's like i had a horseback riding deeply deeply tragic horseback

00:32:24.520 riding incident and um it's only just now finished falling off like 20 like a couple weeks ago what

00:32:34.280 a coincidence yeah like if you had inspected me like a month ago or you know you would have seen

00:32:40.120 i had all the necessary parts i wasn't lying or anything yeah yep so it sounds really crazy

00:32:48.260 but i wouldn't say like this was what people thought could happen at the time but there were

00:32:55.460 some old greek philosophers and medical knowledge up to that point happened based on their theories

00:33:02.940 that um women are cold and men are hot and if a woman were to exert herself um through

00:33:12.640 vigorous exercise or even through childbirth especially giving birth to a boy yeah her organs 1.00

00:33:20.100 could actually invert and to them that meant that she would then have a penis because they for some 0.99

00:33:26.540 reason like thought that it was just like a one-to-one inversion i don't know where they 0.96

00:33:31.840 thought the flesh went exactly but this is what they thought that was science at the time um so

00:33:39.480 you know it sounds crazy and like unbelievable like did they buy this story there's at least

00:33:46.140 one doctor there who attested to the possibility that it was true yeah it's a suspense was citing

00:33:51.820 his sources basically like he could follow and they couldn't really um and they were okay

00:33:57.420 okay i guess you know better than us we're just judges and yeah and that's the thing too like i

00:34:07.900 like to sometimes i'm like i catch myself being like people in the past weren't like

00:34:11.440 less intelligent necessarily um it's just like they had access to different information or they

00:34:17.320 different kind of religious beliefs so it's like if someone came out with this story you'd be like

00:34:20.700 really but maybe everyone's like if you don't really feel a reason to keep going after this

00:34:27.780 person you're like I guess like it seems so outlandish but it it's so medical knowledge

00:34:35.880 was so limited it's like I guess that's possible yes no exactly exactly so it's like like I like

00:34:46.060 that in your book you know there's light-hearted parts like that which is just kind of like people

00:34:50.400 have I just been like goofy throughout history just like oh here's what happened he gets a 0.91

00:34:54.380 penis came off oh a horse stomped on me like okay yeah okay sure yeah and then they ultimately 0.98

00:35:02.880 didn't convict him for any type of gender crime what they convicted him for was getting married

00:35:11.660 again without his first marriage being annulled so they like they'd been married to a man as a

00:35:19.300 teenager and then immediately left and it probably was dead according to the stories i've talked to

00:35:28.000 but they just had to find something it wasn't this guy the problem wasn't that he was marrying a

00:35:36.200 woman the problem was that he might still have a husband somewhere yeah it's when he was a woman

00:35:42.000 right it's so cute like that would be confusing now but i'm just picturing people in the past

00:35:47.380 with their like limited, you know, access to like, you can't like Google this. You can't like

00:35:52.820 investigate things. You're like, okay, I guess I'll just read these ancient Greek texts. And

00:35:57.120 what does, what does, what does they say? Like, sure. Exactly. Like it's so, I did an interview

00:36:03.080 a while ago with a historian. She wrote a book that was kind of like the history of women's

00:36:10.080 bodies. And it was, I ended up reading that book where I was just like, well, gender doesn't exist.

00:36:15.080 nothing means anything what what is truth like because it's like when you try to limit what

00:36:20.240 just what you're saying about like you know the history of women's bodies and medicine and stuff 0.71

00:36:25.240 it's like oh well it's because of this it's the hormones it's like well what about like a woman

00:36:29.360 who like has a womb but doesn't have this many hormones it's like well you know well they have

00:36:34.460 the womb it's like well what about this woman who doesn't have a womb and suddenly it's just like

00:36:37.420 we're just being like i finished reading that book just being like well gender has no meaning

00:36:43.260 anymore to me so in the past to try it's just it's not a little bit fuzzy it's a little bit

00:36:50.920 of a spectrum it's a spectrum i guess that's what i felt i was just like wow there's there's no way

00:36:56.220 that i could ever believe in two genders after reading that book because it's just like

00:37:00.340 impossible and women's bodies were always seen as so mysterious yeah but you mentioned your book

00:37:07.200 also about how a lot of the like people being arrested and the crimes and stuff people being 0.95

00:37:15.000 arrested people being treated with suspicion or whatever it's often like a trans female situation

00:37:23.460 where it's just because there's sort of like there's sort of a almost like a I forget how

00:37:27.900 you describe it but it's sort of like a lower status like for seemingly a man to become a woman

00:37:32.620 it's like that's unnatural but for a female to be acting masculine it's like oh that's

00:37:36.520 well they're elevating themselves like can you explain that i just remember that was in your book

00:37:40.540 you just explained it perfectly okay yeah that's still how people see and i think also

00:37:47.100 especially in the past before there were medical treatments it was just harder for trans women to

00:37:52.800 blend in in a way that would avoid suspicion uh a you know the lucky trans man who can blend in

00:38:03.660 with other men can might not you know uh kind of keep his head down not try to get married 0.89

00:38:09.680 and and can live his whole life out but uh with trans women it's it's rarer to find that you find 0.90

00:38:19.100 a trans woman who can who is smooth-faced and things like that or she can just pass by usually

00:38:26.140 with trans women in history just kind of like how it is today it's just a lot harder to get jobs

00:38:31.480 that aren't good because you're looking at 1.00

00:38:33.500 women's work and that's already 1.00

00:38:35.520 going to be lower paying and lower 1.00

00:38:37.480 status. So when you combine

00:38:39.500 that with doing

00:38:41.340 very

00:38:42.660 low pay

00:38:47.420 low status

00:38:48.640 people who are willing to 1.00

00:38:51.600 hire a woman who 0.98

00:38:53.180 looks like she might be very 1.00

00:38:55.320 masculine.

00:38:56.660 It's really hard.

00:39:01.480 I think, yeah.

00:39:03.060 And I was just going to say, and that could also be where like the many of the examples

00:39:06.420 you have in your book are of a trans woman, because that is maybe more noticeable, like

00:39:11.680 a trans man could have blended in better, maybe wouldn't have been noticed.

00:39:16.040 And especially if you go to a different city where people don't know you from before or

00:39:20.420 something like that, you just kind of blend in.

00:39:24.520 What I also appreciate about your book is you really sort of like hold my hand through

00:39:29.700 the history and then when you get into the 20th century like there's so many different examples

00:39:33.960 and so many stories but kind of how this person led to this person like i think you talk about

00:39:38.760 christine christine jorgensen that's her name right she was this very famous trans woman from

00:39:45.140 i think the 1950s 40s 50s and then just her visibility inspired some other people who you

00:39:50.940 talk about in the book and so i liked seeing and then i think you you mentioned also about like

00:39:56.260 kind of how laverne cox changed the conversation as well so it's just kind of like how

00:39:59.820 the more trans people are visible and open about their experience and who they are that's helping

00:40:06.460 the next generation or that's helping other people realize like oh this is a possibility

00:40:11.060 like this is i understand myself better absolutely yeah and that's a really important

00:40:20.000 dynamic i think to uh acknowledge in order to understand why it seems like there's so many

00:40:25.880 trans people now yeah it's like oh where are they all coming from like well we've been here all 0.98

00:40:31.760 along but we didn't know that we could do anything about it or there'd be people who have thought of 1.00

00:40:38.520 different this not knowing there's a different path because you need to have other people on a

00:40:45.760 path like we can't not everyone can be a rugged individualist just striking out with their own

00:40:50.800 completely own unique way of existing or something like we need community we need each other yeah i

00:40:56.680 mean and we need and we and uh a lot of us need uh trans medical care so that that also like you

00:41:05.060 know destigmatizing trans medical care and allowing people to access it without having to jump through

00:41:10.600 as many hoops like you then you'll see when you destigmatize things like people start to

00:41:16.040 show who they really are. Yeah, I would just like to add on to that, like at my age, being 42 years

00:41:24.660 old, I remember being in high school and never having seen an example of a trans masculine

00:41:30.080 person or a trans man. But I thought of myself as a girl who was a boy in my heart. That's what

00:41:37.380 I came up with. And the way I looked, there was no way anyone would have ever given me

00:41:44.980 gender affirming care back in North Carolina in the 90s like zero chance so it's I definitely

00:41:52.960 existed and I knew what I felt and I knew what my experience was but I wouldn't have called

00:41:59.480 myself trans because I don't think I even knew that work and even then it was transsexuals and

00:42:06.080 even then it was transsexuals on Jerry Springer which were primarily trans women although I think

00:42:11.440 they did have some trans yeah there were some trans men yeah but i didn't even have cable so 0.64

00:42:15.480 it's like i think i maybe saw like one top show where it was like this man like so wear dresses

00:42:21.960 i'm like hmm it seems like something like i don't know you know it was just like it's not that i

00:42:27.880 wasn't having my experience you know i just didn't have the words and i can know having lived that

00:42:34.340 that it's true like it didn't just occur to me one day that i was trans you know and that's how

00:42:41.180 a lot of people think oh well once you hear about it you're just gonna be trans or something but

00:42:46.200 that's just not how it works well that's why i feel like a book like this is so good and so

00:42:51.960 important because you're compiling together all these stories of different kinds of people like

00:42:55.700 we talked about like heroic people and like people who face challenges and also kind of people who

00:43:01.380 are kind of shitty um but just like all kinds of people to show like here's what all their

00:43:05.620 experiences were and then you're also including discussion about like being intersex and what

00:43:09.560 does that mean and stuff so just giving like to show to me what I hope to do with this episode

00:43:16.060 and just with my podcast in general is to show like people have always been people you know

00:43:21.120 whether it's like 10,000 years ago or 200 years ago it's like humanity didn't change it's just

00:43:26.440 now we have a way we have a different way of talking about it but it's like people have always

00:43:30.120 had the same experiences and so I think this book and I think it's being marketed as like a young

00:43:36.040 adult graphic novel is that yeah right yeah yeah so I think like that's where it's so important

00:43:40.600 for young people to see like hey look at like trans like there is a trans history this is

00:43:46.020 and it's not just the last 25 years like it goes all the way back yeah I just want to encourage

00:43:52.540 people of all ages to read it while I was working on the book I was working in a nursing home

00:43:57.360 and one of my best friends there was in her 90s and she was one of the most supportive

00:44:04.040 encouraging like presence in my life at that time and she was so stoked on the comic

00:44:10.560 and um older people can read it and enjoy it too and it's for all you know all ages

00:44:19.900 yeah i think it's i think too especially for somebody who maybe has never read anything about

00:44:26.680 trans history because it is written like as a graphic novel which is just easier to understand

00:44:31.500 with the images and stuff like this could be a really good entry for somebody to just begin

00:44:35.960 learning about this who doesn't know anything about it that's what we're hoping this is like

00:44:41.940 i don't want to pressure you but i feel like i would love it if there's volume two okay i'm

00:44:49.260 listening we're thinking about our next project right now the stories that you couldn't fit into

00:44:55.420 this you know i feel like yeah just there were a lot there were stories you couldn't fit in and

00:45:00.440 even a volume two we couldn't fit them all in there either and i would love to cover more

00:45:05.240 non-binary people too like we didn't get to cover anything specifically like have a non-binary

00:45:09.720 section and i think that would have been been pretty cool that just kind of covered the

00:45:13.960 relationship between non-binary and trans and like what that's all about and have a couple

00:45:18.700 people who are examples who who are yeah who we would now call non-binary yeah yeah i think that

00:45:27.020 that's i just feel like i i don't know all the where i'm i know that there is a lot of work

00:45:32.400 things into making a graphic novel but i'm like man if there's like volumes two volume three like

00:45:36.100 i would be right there on the first day buying them because i'm just like i love the way that

00:45:39.720 you tell these stories and i love the stories that you chose and kind of how you assembled

00:45:43.340 them i think it's such a fun good project i think it's fun but like you know it's also like

00:45:51.380 heartwarming and parts of it are so sad but overall it's just like the cover i'm looking

00:45:55.800 at the image on my computer right now it's so like bright and colorful and i think that that

00:45:59.360 wins people over too to just like to oh this book looks interesting like and then you like learn the

00:46:06.500 facts along with kind of like your jokes and the illustrations and everything i'm so happy to hear

00:46:11.980 thank you can you describe to the listeners um what each of you did in terms of writing this

00:46:21.000 book because you talk about it in the book but just so people know why there's two of you here

00:46:24.460 on the show sure um so we're a creative team we're a couple we've been together for over 20 years

00:46:33.100 um and we've done small creative projects in the past this is definitely the biggest by far

00:46:40.360 um i first pitched the book as just my book and i helped him write the pitch

00:46:48.060 so you're secretly there in the background already yeah i was already i was like okay

00:46:53.400 we gotta do he's gotta you know i was ds he was like i'm gonna support you he was like i don't

00:46:58.720 know how much work i can do on it though so which is why it was pitched as my book it might just be

00:47:05.400 bringing you food you know exactly um but as we continued the process i did primarily most of the

00:47:14.440 research andrew actually did a whole deep dive into chevalier the on which got cut unfortunately

00:47:20.620 but I did do most of the reading and research and initial writing um but as I would be reading and

00:47:27.600 writing I would be talking to Andrew about it we were literally working in our little bedroom

00:47:32.800 um that was slash office so I would turn around and be like oh my god like can you believe this

00:47:38.920 like crazy thing I just read like and we would start talking and you know he was really involved

00:47:46.220 in that and then once we were working on the writing he definitely would get in there and

00:47:51.500 help with um editing and then when we would be trying to figure out I would be like uh okay so

00:47:59.000 we have the writing down we have the words but what should I draw here and he would did some

00:48:04.360 art direction um so there reached a point where we were like okay we stopped calling it my book

00:48:10.840 and we just started calling in our book.

00:48:13.220 And then he also did most of the coloring.

00:48:16.320 I helped a little bit with the coloring.

00:48:18.640 So yeah, he was basically involved at every set.

00:48:22.420 I love that partnership.

00:48:25.560 Like just the blurring of the lines of like,

00:48:27.740 who's doing what until eventually it's like,

00:48:29.680 this is a project we're doing together.

00:48:31.280 Like I think that's how so many creative things

00:48:34.000 end up happening.

00:48:35.940 Yeah.

00:48:37.700 Just as a final question.

00:48:39.220 And so obviously the first thing is everybody needs to go out and read this

00:48:43.240 book, but also are you, um,

00:48:46.700 going to be making appearances at bookstores or do you have like social

00:48:50.080 media? Like how can people keep up with what you're doing?

00:48:54.160 So they should look for my social media, which is Alex L.

00:48:58.460 Combs, uh, alexlcombs.com is my website.

00:49:03.800 I'm also on Instagram at Alex L.

00:49:06.760 Combs and I'm on blue sky.

00:49:09.220 Those are pretty much the only ones I use.

00:49:12.080 And we're going to be doing some visits to bookstores.

00:49:18.240 We don't have them all nailed down yet.

00:49:20.720 But we know we want to do some stuff on the East Coast, too.

00:49:25.140 We're from North Carolina, so we want to do some stuff in North Carolina.

00:49:29.280 And we are going to be in D.C.

00:49:32.340 What are the dates for that?

00:49:33.720 We have to put it on the website.

00:49:35.660 Yeah, we could actually email it.

00:49:37.800 Yeah.

00:49:38.360 because yeah i think this might be out by then yeah just email me if you if you have some

00:49:45.440 finalized dates but otherwise like listeners just check out the website it's alexlcombs.com

00:49:50.120 yeah yeah to get all the latest stuff and i feel like just from what i've seen from other authors

00:49:55.980 who've written like books about queer history and stuff it's the sort of thing like even a year from

00:50:00.480 now like next june someone might be like can you come do a talk like i feel like it's a sort of

00:50:04.340 that even after the book comes out,

00:50:07.020 like hopefully you're still going to be called upon

00:50:09.720 to like speak about it in years to come.

00:50:12.160 Because I think it's a book

00:50:14.440 that it feels very timeless to me.

00:50:16.220 I just keep throwing compliments at you.

00:50:18.020 But I really, I want everybody to read it.

00:50:20.580 And I think that hopefully people will for years to come.

00:50:24.260 Thank you.

00:50:24.660 I'm looking forward to talking about trans history

00:50:27.120 for the rest of my life.

00:50:30.260 I would love to listen to that.

00:50:31.780 thank you so much for joining me on the podcast and i hope that that although the marketing of

00:50:39.160 this book and like going and meeting readers and stuff i hope that all is really like enriching

00:50:43.260 and really um really makes you feel the importance of this book thank you so much

00:50:50.320 thanks so much for having us on it's been really good talking to you yeah you too

00:50:54.100 so again the name of this book trans history a graphic novel from ancient times to the present

00:51:05.220 day by alex l combs and andrew ekett and thank you again to both of them for such a wonderful

00:51:10.320 conversation and i love every time i see a new book that's coming out about trans history it

00:51:15.400 just it makes me glad that another book is out there in the world that people can happen upon

00:51:19.580 and maybe learn some of this information for the first time or to reinforce things that they already

00:51:23.640 new. And this is just such a really, the graphic novel format of this makes it so accessible to

00:51:28.760 so many people. And I'm really happy that this book exists in the world. And I have a couple

00:51:34.240 of announcements just about this podcast. So for fans of this podcast who live in or near Toronto,

00:51:40.780 Ontario, Canada, we will be having a meetup there because I'm going to be in town. I,

00:51:46.180 the host of this podcast, Anne Foster. So we're going to be meeting in Toronto on Sunday, July

00:51:50.280 20th. And if you want to know the where and the when, like what time of day, you can RSVP for

00:51:55.680 this meetup, which again will be Sunday, July 20th in Toronto, Ontario, go to vulgarhistory.com

00:52:01.860 slash meetup and leave your email address. And I will send you all the information,

00:52:06.080 but also I'm getting people to register there just so I kind of know how many people to expect.

00:52:11.880 And it seems like it's going to be a lot of people and I'm really excited.

00:52:15.060 And another piece of information for fans of this podcast to know is that I and Foster have

00:52:20.240 written a book and it's coming out next year. It's coming out next February. It's called Rebel

00:52:24.700 of the Regency. And it is a story about Caroline of Brunswick, who was the queen of Great Britain,

00:52:32.520 but she never got to wear a crown. And she was a scandalous, interesting person that her name has

00:52:38.240 been sullied over the years as being this kind of like trashy, no good person. And this book is here

00:52:44.000 to say like, yes, maybe she was trashy, but she was also really cool and really worth taking

00:52:49.260 seriously and looking at what her life was like. Similar to this podcast, the book is

00:52:53.320 like I did an incredible amount of research. It's a well-researched book, but it's also funny.

00:52:59.620 It's got jokes. The vibe is kind of like the Princess Diaries, but Regency era and what if

00:53:05.260 Mia Thermopolis never really got a makeover or that it never really worked is kind of the vibe

00:53:11.520 of it. Anyway, again, it's a nonfiction book. It's called Rebel of the Regency. And if you

00:53:15.640 pre-order it, which you can do from online stores or from, if there's a local independent bookstore

00:53:20.760 near you, you can always pre-order from local stores too. When you pre-order this book, which

00:53:26.240 comes out February, 2026, but the advantage of ordering it early is that you get some special

00:53:30.980 treats from me, which include a free membership to my sub stack at the paid level. You get a free,

00:53:37.380 you can request a free membership to my Patreon at the paid level. And you can also get a digital

00:53:43.020 download of an incredibly cute Carolina Brunswick paper doll. Again, Carolina Brunswick is the

00:53:48.080 person who the book is about. And she had a lot of iconic fashion moments. And these paper dolls

00:53:53.460 are incredible. I hired an artist named Siobhan Gallagher to make them. It's exactly what I

00:54:00.080 envision. It's cute. It's adorable. And those are the free treats that you can sign up to get for

00:54:04.060 when you share a receipt with me of the book that you pre-ordered. So again, if you want to pre-order

00:54:08.800 Rebel of the Regency, but Ann Foster, or you can also, and, or if you use Goodreads or if you use

00:54:15.120 Storygraph, like you can add it to your TBR there just because those, it just, it's all good for

00:54:20.360 like my publisher to see that people are ordering it early, that people want to read it. That just

00:54:24.460 lets them know like, oh, this book is interesting and people are into it. And like, maybe we should

00:54:28.360 market it, like, especially a lot. So if, and when you do pre-order this book, go to rebeloftheregency.com

00:54:35.120 and just fill out the little form there with your picture of your receipt and then let me know which

00:54:40.080 of the free treats you would like and i will hook you up anyway thank you so much for listening to 1.00

00:54:45.560 vulgar history my name is ann foster and until next time keep your pants on and your tits out 1.00

00:54:51.600 hashtag pride month style 0.99

00:54:53.400 vulgar history is researched scripted and hosted by ann foster that's me editor is christina lumagi

00:55:02.880 Theme music is by The Severn Duo.

00:55:05.560 Transcripts of this podcast are available at vulgarhistory.com by Aveline Malek.

00:55:10.000 You can get early ad-free episodes of Vulgar History by becoming a paid member of our Patreon for as low as $1 a month at patreon.com slash annfosterwriter.

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00:55:27.920 Follow us on social media at vulgarhistorypod and get in touch with me via email at vulgarhistorypod at gmail.com.

00:55:57.920 endless adventure welcome to the realms of peril and glory

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Vulgar History - June 13, 2025

Trans History： From Ancient Times to the Present Day

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Transcript