Vulgar History - Wallis Simpson vs Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon

00:00:00.000 Hello, and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast. My name is

00:00:14.000 Anne Foster. And today we are talking about one of the biggest scandals of the British

00:00:19.040 royal family of the 20th century. That is the abdication of King Edward VIII for the

00:00:25.100 love of the American divorcee, Wallace Simpson. And this is the setting of the novel written by

00:00:32.420 today's guest, who is Melanie Benjamin. She's the author of a new historical fiction novel called

00:00:36.560 The Windsor Affair. The abdication is a major plot point in this whole story, but there's two

00:00:41.780 main characters in this. And one of them is American divorcee, Wallace Simpson. And the

00:00:46.460 other one is Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, who is AKA Queen Elizabeth, not to be confused with the

00:00:52.460 Queen Elizabeth II, who just passed away a few years ago. It's her mom. She was known in her

00:00:56.820 life as the queen mom. Anyway, they were sisters-in-law. They married two British royal

00:01:03.540 men. One of these women was American. One of these women was British. One of these women

00:01:07.680 was a tabloid, greatly hated figure. And one of these people was a very domestic, 0.99

00:01:15.080 very protected by the royal family. And people only spoke about the nice things about her.

00:01:19.000 But the thing is that it's a real sort of real housewives of 20th century England sort of vibe because these two women hated each other in real life.

00:01:29.040 This is a fact. And there's never been a novel written before about the relationship between these two women.

00:01:35.140 So when I saw that Melanie Benjamin had written this novel, The Windsor Affair, I had to have her on the podcast.

00:01:39.880 And I'm so happy she said yes. And so please enjoy this conversation about the scandalous lives of the British royal family 100 years ago, practically.

00:01:49.000 in this conversation with author Melanie Benjamin, whose new book is called The Windsor Affair.

00:01:58.960 So I'm joined here today by author Melanie Benjamin to talk about your newest book just

00:02:03.880 out this week, The Windsor Affair. Welcome, Melanie. Oh, thanks so much for having me,

00:02:08.840 Anne. I love your podcast. I'm so excited to talk about this because I haven't done a lot of

00:02:13.820 20th century on my podcast. And this is your kind of your wheelhouse. Like you've written

00:02:18.960 numerous historical fiction before a lot of it set in the 20th century and this is am I wrong

00:02:25.000 this is your first royal-based book it is it is my first one yeah uh I it's very similar I think

00:02:31.600 in a lot of ways to a previous novel of mine called The Swans of Fifth Avenue that was about

00:02:36.080 Truman Capote and Babe Paley and all the swans in that it is set and there are some intersecting

00:02:42.080 characters like I throw in some easter eggs like Babe Paley makes an appearance in this novel um

00:02:46.960 So that high society kind of gossipy and also rather bitchy milieu is very, they share that DNA in this, but it is the first one I have done about the royal family.

00:03:02.700 And my first historical novel, Alice, I Have Been, Queen Victoria's youngest son, Prince Leopold, was a character in that, but it wasn't his story.

00:03:13.500 So that would be my only other brush with royalty.

00:03:16.960 Well, and this is a story we were just chatting a bit before we started recording where I, as a historian, as somebody who's been, I'm in Canada, the royal family is always being discussed here.

00:03:27.800 I kind of knew about this sequence of events, but not everybody does.

00:03:31.360 So I was wondering if you can set the scene.

00:03:33.360 Your book is about two women who marry brothers and their contentious relationship.

00:03:38.600 So just set the scene.

00:03:40.220 Oh, gosh.

00:03:40.760 Well, I mean, so there were two Windsor brothers.

00:03:46.960 brothers. Let's start there. I like very similar to current Windsor brothers in a way. One was the

00:03:52.920 heir to the throne. The other was the spare. So it was David, the Prince of Wales, who became King

00:04:01.520 Edward VIII and his younger brother, George, everyone called him Bertie. And so these were

00:04:10.180 the sons of King George V. So this is like after World War I and everyone comes to World War

00:04:16.940 one and we've got the roaring 20s this is kind of like ladder down to an end here they're the

00:04:22.460 roaring 20s and then we get to the 30s um the heir to the throne the prince of wales was very

00:04:29.740 very popular at the time he was a very handsome man i was looking at pictures um well i wasn't

00:04:36.220 looking at pictures but i came across pictures when i was just reminding myself of some of the

00:04:39.140 history and i'm like oh he was good looking he was yeah yeah yeah and very stylish actually like

00:04:45.960 he set a lot of fashion trends. He was very awkward. I think of that, you know, he was too

00:04:52.160 modern and had a lot of issues. His father had an awful lot of issues with him because David was

00:04:59.040 really clear that when he became king, he was going to modernize a lot of things. David also

00:05:03.920 had a fondness for falling in love with divorced married women, including some Americans. Now in

00:05:11.780 that time period after World War I, like prior to World War I, he would have been expected to marry

00:05:16.540 a royal princess of Europe. That's just what the heir to the throne would do. After World War I,

00:05:24.020 there literally wasn't as much royalty around after all so many, you know, thrones toppled

00:05:30.540 in that. So he could have probably gotten away with, with like his, you know, his nephew did

00:05:38.500 later, marrying a cometer, someone who would have been aristocratic, but maybe not royalty.

00:05:46.220 But he just showed no signs of wanting to settle down, marry a suitable virgin, and have royal

00:05:55.600 children to guarantee the secession. His younger brother, Bertie, did actually fall in love with

00:06:03.660 a Scottish aristocrat

00:06:05.800 named Elizabeth Buzz Lyon.

00:06:07.780 They married in the 20s

00:06:09.320 and they settled down

00:06:10.280 and they had two little girls,

00:06:11.760 Margaret and Elizabeth

00:06:12.700 and Margaret.

00:06:13.620 And they were very domestic

00:06:14.860 and they were very 0.89

00:06:15.860 more in line

00:06:17.340 with what people expected

00:06:18.340 their royalty to do.

00:06:20.460 But they were kind of dull

00:06:21.300 in that way, too.

00:06:22.840 Well, and I want to say, too,

00:06:23.820 like in terms of just

00:06:24.640 what everybody looks like,

00:06:25.620 just because this becomes

00:06:26.460 this is a big thing

00:06:27.380 in your book, kind of.

00:06:28.680 The one couple is glamorous

00:06:29.960 and the other couple

00:06:30.780 is decidedly less so.

00:06:32.060 So we've got David is

00:06:32.880 very handsome birdie is more just he looks more in line with kind of what the i don't know if you

00:06:38.560 think of like today like king charles yeah he just looks like what you think the british royals look

00:06:43.060 like just kind of like yeah okay he's wearing a suit but he's not you know like oh glamorous and

00:06:49.320 he didn't see he had a speech impediment impediment that famously if you've ever seen the movie the

00:06:55.020 king's speech you know that we've talked he's had a stutter he supposedly had some other tics was

00:07:02.160 had some nervous habits. He had a real terrible temper. Bertie was just not glamorous in the way

00:07:08.440 that his younger brother David was. And he was a-okay with that. He was fine with that. He didn't

00:07:14.460 want the spotlight. And he married a very traditional, I guess, a Scottish earl's daughter

00:07:20.100 in Elizabeth Bosliath. So I wanted to mention too, so you're saying like David as the heir to the

00:07:24.920 throne, he would probably be expected to marry a royal, like maybe some sort of of the royals

00:07:30.500 But Albert married, he married effectively, you know, a very wealthy person, a titled person, but still a commoner, technically.

00:07:40.360 A commoner in that she was had no, she was not royal.

00:07:43.000 I think today people don't understand commoner because I've seen a lot of people refer to Kate Middleton as the first commoner to marry, you know, into the British royal family, which is not true.

00:07:55.240 Diana was a commoner, but Diana was an aristocrat and the same with Elizabeth.

00:08:00.500 she didn't have a drop of royal blood but she was an aristocrat so she's at home in in this world

00:08:07.960 yeah yeah so they so so david go back to the goneris prince of wales who is like a matinee

00:08:15.000 idol all the women loves him there was actually a song called i danced with a girl a boy who

00:08:21.300 danced with a girl who danced with the prince of wales that was a popular song at the time

00:08:25.720 everybody loved him he was in the middle of an affair with an american married woman named

00:08:31.980 telma from forness who you might know as gloria vanderbilt's aunt um she and her sister gloria

00:08:39.120 were twins the fabulous uh they were i think their uh main name is morgan and um they both

00:08:47.200 went on to marry lots of aristocratic men and by this uh telma was married to a british man who

00:08:53.760 was some kind of lord and so she was lady wardess she and david the prince of wales had a very kind

00:09:00.400 of open affair so they they were part of the whole british kind of this the upper class nightlife

00:09:07.600 you know crowded they would frequent nightclubs and hold fabulous parties at his private residence

00:09:13.540 called the fort it was it was fort belvedere on the grounds of the windsor stage that was his

00:09:19.840 alone his private place and the king very much frowned on everything that happened there the

00:09:25.460 king was very old-fashioned and very worried about his clayboy prince son the heir to the throne and

00:09:31.640 by this time now we're in the 1930s the king is not well and so there is an urgency for david

00:09:37.940 the behalf of everyone involved david needs to settle down he needs to stop playing around with

00:09:42.660 these American married women. And then we enter Wallace Simpson, who is a already divorced

00:09:51.260 woman, married woman, who is married to just a kind of an upper class British guy.

00:09:56.560 And she's an American. She's Thomas Friend. She meets the Prince of Wales. They get into

00:10:02.300 his circle. It's very advantageous for Wallace and her husband to be friends with the Prince of

00:10:08.560 Wales they get some contacts that help his business she gets to be you know swatting around

00:10:14.720 with the Prince Wales group and then Thelma goes off to America to be with her sister

00:10:19.860 and Thelma asks Wallace to take care of David while she's gone yeah be his friend this is like

00:10:28.380 okay so it's the 20th century it's the 1930s 1930s this feels so similar to how kings in British

00:10:36.740 history almost all of them have long had mistresses like i've just finished doing a whole series about

00:10:42.100 the regency era and what surprised me about that time was the princess at that time like they were

00:10:48.260 having affairs with married women like this what he's doing what david is doing is like classic

00:10:53.420 british royal family and nobody had a problem here's the funny thing like had he just married

00:10:59.980 a suitable woman and kept having these affairs no one would have had a problem with it it really

00:11:06.360 was like accepted like okay that's what kings do the problem was he falls in love with wallace

00:11:11.900 simpson he falls head over heels crazy obsessively in love with this married american woman and

00:11:21.280 decides he's going to marry her and stay on the throne so she has to get another divorce in order

00:11:28.380 for this to happen because she's already married yeah right so she would have been a twice divorced 0.98

00:11:32.860 american woman marrying the future king of england head of the church of england this was never ever 0.64

00:11:43.560 going to be allowed to happen can you explain the the church of england angle about like marrying

00:11:48.980 divorcee yeah so in that in that time and it really wasn't until very recently um the church

00:11:56.200 of england just did not sanction divorce it was you know like a very just catholic adjacent

00:12:01.560 in that you know you if you were a divorced you were just not recognized you know you would have

00:12:07.820 to leave the church basically and then as now the person occupying the throne is the also the head

00:12:16.140 of the church of England you know we all know this all started back with Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn

00:12:19.980 and and and that all that so people back then and I think they do still now because I've heard some

00:12:26.660 people kind of not happy with the fact that like prince william is not much of a churchgoer i've

00:12:33.520 heard this is kind of becoming an issue um because he will be the head of the church of england when

00:12:40.260 he is crowned and uh unlike his father and grandmother who are and were devout i guess

00:12:48.160 william is not and so i've heard people talking about this already so it could be a thing again

00:12:53.760 And then also the current King Charles, he is, his Camilla is divorced.

00:12:59.560 Right.

00:13:00.240 I think it took a long time, like decades for them to be able to, like, to figure that out.

00:13:04.980 I think when Margaret's divorce came along in the, like, 60s, right, when she, or early 70s, when she divorced Tony Armstrong Jones, that was kind of the first wedge of divorce being allowed in the royal family.

00:13:20.640 And then soon after that, Princess Anne, yeah, famously divorced in Charles and Diana, Fergie and Andrew, you know, so it's now it's kind of common.

00:13:30.940 But for sure, back in 1935, 36, this was not going to be allowed.

00:13:35.780 So we're setting this thing up, this huge crisis, the abdication crisis that we call

00:13:41.300 him, where, you know, David doesn't quite his part.

00:13:47.240 I don't think anyone, let alone Walt Simpson, expected him to want to marry her.

00:13:52.740 I think it was the last thing she wanted him to do was want to marry her.

00:13:57.500 And so he causes this enormous crisis in 1935, 36.

00:14:03.820 king george dies yeah but it's like george dies in january and then it's that year 36 yeah

00:14:11.560 they call it the year of three kings because george v dies in january of 36 so david is now

00:14:21.420 the heir to the throne and suddenly i mean he's on the throne he is the king and suddenly birdie

00:14:27.320 is now the heir to the throne but even then everyone expects that david will eventually

00:14:32.940 marry someone and produce heirs so no one really ever thinks at this point that birdie or his

00:14:38.800 oldest daughter elizabeth are ever going to be on the throne but david doesn't play by the book he

00:14:43.220 gets more and more and more obsessed with wallace simpson and it causes a crisis uh the british

00:14:50.800 papers laid off for a very very long time like the rest of the world knew what was going on it was

00:14:56.540 very big in the american press the canadian press european press but but he had a deal with lord

00:15:02.380 Bederbrook who who was kind of controlled the press in England at the time that they wouldn't

00:15:06.840 report about all this but he makes Wallace get a divorce so that he can marry her and then all hell

00:15:13.920 breaks loose this is this is a crucial detail that I didn't put together in my mind that at the time

00:15:20.120 he becomes king like I just knew Wallace Simpson she's a divorcee I didn't realize she was actively

00:15:25.160 still married to Simpson Ernest Simpson yeah like even if even if these events played out today the

00:15:31.420 fact that she's still married just makes it even more scandalous i think five years ago it's like

00:15:38.780 no she's not even divorced yet actively still married and her husband plays you know the the

00:15:46.720 the beard i guess you could call it i mean he he willingly does for a very very long time look the

00:15:53.160 other way while his future king is romancing his wife because it's beneficial to him in some way

00:16:01.380 He was a very thorough, patriotic Englishman, too.

00:16:04.460 And it was like, well, you know, this makes my king happy or my future king happy.

00:16:08.180 I'm OK with it.

00:16:09.280 But then when David then after he becomes king before he's crowned, but after he becomes king, he takes Ernest to lunch and says, I will not be crowned without Wallace by my side.

00:16:21.020 So this is what he starts telling everyone, the prime minister, Stanley Baldwin, his brother, Bertie, who is suddenly extremely panic-stricken because he's starting to realize, oh, my God, I might have to be king.

00:16:36.000 You know, and it just was not what he wanted at all, whether or not it's what his wife Elizabeth wanted.

00:16:43.080 I don't think she did want it at first, but I think she realized she'd be good at it, you know, once it happened.

00:16:49.980 But I don't think she sought it out.

00:16:52.640 I think she was a very fundamentally self-indulgent person

00:16:57.380 who didn't necessarily want to uproot her very cozy life.

00:17:02.740 Her little domestic life that they're having.

00:17:05.040 Yeah. 0.97

00:17:05.960 Living in royal palaces with nannies and just enjoying their children 0.88

00:17:10.660 and having a swell old time. 0.73

00:17:13.080 So this all happens.

00:17:15.120 It's a crisis.

00:17:15.820 He famously abdicates the throne in December of 1936, giving it all up for the woman I love, the famous application speech.

00:17:25.620 I want to say that. So he said like I he calls her the woman I love.

00:17:30.260 And as somebody myself personally, who grew up watching a lot of daytime soap operas, that's a phrase that people say so much.

00:17:37.720 The man I love, the woman I love, like he really coined this.

00:17:41.420 And that's what sort of set the tone for how people understand their ongoing relationship because they do get married and they're together for a long time as this great love affair.

00:17:53.040 Like when you said that, which we can talk about that if you want.

00:17:58.000 But, you know, was it?

00:17:59.840 Yeah, that's that's the thing.

00:18:03.180 So so this is setting the stage for my book.

00:18:05.920 All this happens in my book, but my novel is really about the two women in, you know, at the center of all this, Wallace Simpson and her rival, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, because all this happens.

00:18:19.140 The abdication happens.

00:18:20.860 She has already left.

00:18:22.900 Wallace is already has divorced and left England to get away because suddenly the press is talking about it.

00:18:29.960 And she's actually she's under attack. 0.97

00:18:32.120 People hate her. 0.91

00:18:33.200 They don't see this as this great love affair.

00:18:35.720 I mean, I think David had a very arrogant, I'm the king.

00:18:39.720 Of course, they're going to support anything I do because I'm the king and they've always loved me and they have always loved him. 0.99

00:18:45.320 But they do not love the idea of an American, once divorced woman. 0.74

00:18:51.580 You know, they can't even imagine her on the throne. 0.94

00:18:56.260 She has fled, you know, to the continent.

00:18:58.640 She's over in France staying with friends.

00:19:00.660 And when he makes this famous speech, she's not even there.

00:19:03.440 There have been some depictions of her standing beside him as he's making this speech.

00:19:08.140 I think the crown did that.

00:19:09.440 That is not true.

00:19:10.240 She was in France.

00:19:11.840 And then he goes over on the continent and waits until her divorce is final.

00:19:15.540 And then they get married because they have to, because by then she is stuck.

00:19:20.800 I think that's that's the.

00:19:22.680 And so meanwhile, we have Elizabeth Buslein on the other side, seeing her husband, who

00:19:27.740 was very ill-prepared and not psychologically suited to be king suddenly and then her little

00:19:34.100 daughter who is going to suddenly have her life completely changed and so she's dealing with a

00:19:39.680 fallout while also ascending the throne and suddenly she is queen Elizabeth uh so and and

00:19:47.500 the two women became bitter bitter rivals I mean they started out as friendly enough when they

00:19:53.140 first met in the 30s but as it became clearer and clearer that David was completely obsessed with

00:19:58.780 her and was probably was forcing her upon everyone then then the two women became very very bitter

00:20:05.400 enemies and that is my book. The Windsor Affair so and that's what I think it says in the in the

00:20:14.980 afterward of your book you're describing sort of how this book came to be and you said in there

00:20:18.960 that you thought well of course someone's already written this book it's such a juicy topic and it

00:20:23.260 turns out no one had no no i don't have been i mean there's certainly a lot of biographies of

00:20:28.540 both women um books about the advocation crisis books about the windsor brothers there's been a

00:20:35.220 couple of historical novels about wallace but none about elizabeth and none about the two of that

00:20:42.460 their during this crisis and their lifelong relationship because you know it certainly

00:20:49.020 to the end of their lives they were the last barely long lived yeah they both live their

00:20:54.220 husbands well we know elizabeth with one she lives to be 100 um wallace lives into her late 80s but

00:21:01.200 unfortunately with the last 15 years of her life she was basically bedridden with dementia so um

00:21:08.940 So she didn't have, but, you know, their lives were intertwined.

00:21:12.480 And I found that I felt they had a lot of things in common.

00:21:16.260 They were both very strong women, married to very weak men.

00:21:21.560 And I guess I think it's very well established that David and his brother,

00:21:26.440 Bertie, and all the children of King George V and Queen Mary,

00:21:30.420 they didn't have good relationships with their parents at all.

00:21:33.280 There was not a lot of love.

00:21:35.100 And they were both kind of starved for their mother's love.

00:21:38.020 And I think they found it in these different women.

00:21:41.540 They needed strong women, I think.

00:21:45.060 They just were kind of lost little boys all their lives.

00:21:49.380 But Elizabeth always blamed Wallace for the early death of her husband.

00:21:57.020 Bertie died in 1953.

00:21:59.280 He was only like 48.

00:22:02.000 The war took its toll on his health and started smoking a million cigarettes a day.

00:22:07.620 And as both Windsor men died of, as their father did, of respiratory diseases because of smoking.

00:22:15.300 But, you know, at least with Bertie, their beginnings were rocky.

00:22:19.300 She turned down his proposal twice before finally accepting it.

00:22:24.000 But they ended up, I think, genuinely, that was a love affair.

00:22:27.980 You know, their marriage was genuinely happy.

00:22:31.000 And you could not say the same thing, I don't think, for Wallace and David at all.

00:22:37.620 I mean, I think at the heart of it, Wallace did not want him to abdicate for her.

00:22:43.280 She knew that she would be stuck for life if he abdicated for her.

00:22:48.140 Like the moment she figured out she was not going to be allowed to be queen.

00:22:52.680 And there's a there's a she's a strangely inactive, like strangely, like unable to make a decision during this time.

00:22:58.980 I think she wanted to leave that, like just leave the scene, go back to America.

00:23:04.900 but she seemed unable to move 0.92

00:23:06.920 as he was bulldozing her into getting divorced. 0.84

00:23:09.460 I don't think she wanted to get divorced. 0.95

00:23:11.520 I think she would have been happy

00:23:12.480 remaining his wife and being, 0.84

00:23:14.500 you know, the king's mistress on the side,

00:23:16.700 like we said they used to do in the Regency era.

00:23:19.160 But, you know, he forced it all

00:23:21.420 and she found herself tied to a man

00:23:23.440 I don't think she truly loved.

00:23:25.760 Well, and that's the thing.

00:23:26.560 And that's what I find really interesting

00:23:27.980 in your retelling and also just in history,

00:23:31.660 the fact that Wallace was just kind of stuck with this guy. And once he, and neither of them

00:23:37.060 knew really, I think she suspected more than David did what this was going to mean. But once

00:23:41.900 he abdicated, they were tethered to each other, but also they just effectively went into sort of

00:23:48.940 exile. They were stuck together. And like, even if, if they had some sort of other lifestyle that

00:23:55.960 they could have gotten into, or they could have socialized more or like, but they were just stuck

00:24:00.700 together they were sent to the caribbean so even like these cracks in the foundation of the

00:24:05.700 relationship you couldn't look away from them because they couldn't get away from each other

00:24:09.620 yeah it was a strange thing no there had never been a living king who had abdicated his throne

00:24:18.080 voluntarily until this happened so no one knew what to do with a former living king it simply

00:24:28.160 had never happened. And I think David was naive and he thought, well, of course I'll be allowed

00:24:35.780 to return to England because I truly think he deeply, deeply loved England and Scotland.

00:24:41.620 And he didn't intend, he didn't think he would not be allowed to return. That was just, he really

00:24:48.340 thought, you know, I'll go away. I'll let my brother get crowned. I'll go marry Wallace.

00:24:53.420 And eventually, you know, because they left all their stuff at the fort because they thought they

00:24:57.100 were going to be able to come back but it became very clear the british government um stanley

00:25:01.700 baldwin at first and the neville chamberlain and eventually churchill they were like we can't have

00:25:06.660 a living king i mean ex-king living in the same country as our current king because i mean look

00:25:14.240 shakespeare right like this is the stuff is shakespeare where brothers are fighting brothers

00:25:18.460 for the crown while no one really thought it was going to be violent there was a on the part of

00:25:24.820 the government and and birdie and um elizabeth circle of real fear that they that david might

00:25:31.000 go off and marry her and then come back he had a lot of fans i mean there were a lot of people

00:25:35.720 who were heartbroken to see him go subjects people in the government actually churchill was a big

00:25:40.240 great friend of him up to a certain point and they really had a genuine fear that he might come back

00:25:46.440 and stage a good try to regain the throne again so very quickly there it was resolved that

00:25:56.000 you know he can't come home now he cannot come home now had world war ii not happened

00:26:03.400 perhaps he might have been allowed they might have been able to figure out some kind of role

00:26:09.360 for him and he might have been able to return and live in england but he after world war ii

00:26:15.120 it was very clear because of he his um we need to get into it yeah yeah we'll talk about that

00:26:22.700 um and they they they were spying the british government was spying on every move he made

00:26:28.080 and they knew that he was okay with the idea of hitler conquering england and setting david and

00:26:34.800 wallace up as kind of a puppet king and queen this had been a plan floating by the nazi government

00:26:40.320 to david and and and wallace we think they knew about it we don't know if they agreed to it but

00:26:48.220 we think they were aware of it they were photographed with hitler photographed with

00:26:52.920 hitler in the 30s before the war started uh david was very much against the idea of another war

00:27:01.240 world war he well he had not been allowed to serve during world war one because of fears of

00:27:06.500 his capture. Although Bernie did serve on a battleship in World War I. David saw the carnage

00:27:12.540 of that war and that lost generation of men and very much didn't want it to happen. And that was

00:27:18.920 his initial kind of, he admired Hitler, unfortunately, but he also very much did not want

00:27:25.460 his country to go to war again. So he was very much about appeasement. It was like, let's get 0.66

00:27:30.060 on the right side of history this time,

00:27:31.840 not the wrong side. 0.83

00:27:33.180 Let's ally with Germany instead of France.

00:27:39.420 The royal family and the government

00:27:41.080 became aware of all that.

00:27:43.760 And then we get through the war

00:27:44.900 and David and Wallace are set to be the governor.

00:27:47.260 He's set to be the governor of the Bahamas during the war.

00:27:50.020 They had to get him as far away

00:27:51.560 from England as possible.

00:27:55.700 His punishment was, 0.67

00:27:57.600 that was the point where the English family

00:27:59.740 government said he can never return that was his punishment the exile the continued exile

00:28:05.860 i'm just thinking about like you mentioned you know shakespeare plays and stuff to have like

00:28:09.840 a king and then someone who might have supporters and maybe some people think should be the king

00:28:14.100 and i can understand especially as you're just describing like with world war ii

00:28:19.200 the danger of having just a freelance royal out there in the world who might be making it's i

00:28:27.560 don't want to make a jack comparison but I will say it reminds me of some of the stuff that Andrew

00:28:33.440 Mountbatten Windsor got up to where it's just like if you're a royal and you have a certain 0.99

00:28:39.280 level of perceived influence or power people might and you're kind of dumb people 0.97

00:28:45.820 try to deal with you and then suddenly before you know what you're doing a treason 0.94

00:28:52.480 yeah well that's true i mean he didn't understand i mean you know they're like you were the former

00:28:59.220 king of england everything you do people think you're acting on behalf of the government

00:29:03.300 even though burdi was very clear you know the government and the king were like very very like

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00:32:26.080 After the abdication and Wallace and David are married, soon after that,

00:32:31.400 this is when they go to Nazi Germany and Austria and they meet Hitler in the photograph of Hitler.

00:32:36.700 So it's kind of like a royal tour, you might say, even though it wasn't, it was not funded by the

00:32:41.440 British government, but it was, you know, he was used to going on royal tours as to that when he

00:32:46.720 was Prince of Wales. So when the Nazi government invites them, it's kind of like the world saw it 0.87

00:32:53.100 almost as a, you know, the British royal. It seems like he's a representative. Yeah. 0.86

00:32:58.900 And he's absolutely not. And everyone in England is just horrified that he's over there. So he and Wallace intended to do another tour to the United States after that. And the government then said, you will not. You cannot. We will, you know.

00:33:17.020 and he at least was trained to listen to what his prime minister said to the government said

00:33:23.940 he didn't push it he wasn't happy about it david he just did but he didn't push it you know he

00:33:30.300 didn't and and he didn't there there was always a line that he wouldn't cross when it came to his

00:33:35.600 dealings with the royal family after the abdication he was constantly asking for money

00:33:40.280 constantly. And in accordance with a very big deal when Wallace was not given the title of

00:33:47.280 her Royal Highness, which she should have been given, let's just say in the constitution and

00:33:52.720 everything of the, I mean, and everything in the British government, she should have been given

00:33:56.460 that. It was very petty that the King and Elizabeth mostly didn't allow that. And that

00:34:03.280 was always a source of main, a lot of friction between the Windsors. They became the Duke and

00:34:09.120 Duchess of Windsor and the rest of the royal family. But there was a line. If the government

00:34:13.960 told him, no, you can't do it, he didn't do it. And when the government sent him to be governor of

00:34:20.580 Bahamas during World War II, well, he didn't want to do it. He did it. You know, there was always a

00:34:25.860 line that David would not cross when it came to the royal family. Were you, I'm just wondering,

00:34:31.760 like the timeline of you writing this book, this stuff's been happening with like Andrew

00:34:36.240 moundbound Windsor over the past year I presume your book was done at that point but even

00:34:39.620 even before all of the hate and everything happened with Meghan Markle the fact that

00:34:44.320 she was an American divorcee people are like oh we've seen this before we've seen this before

00:34:48.420 and now to have Meghan and Harry be sort of kind of royals but not really royals and doing

00:34:54.260 kind of royal tours but not really royal tours so there's a lot of like this is kind of the only

00:34:58.360 precedent it is i'll see yeah so similar in a lot of ways um not and i think both women have 0.97

00:35:07.440 some similarities megan marken and megan markle and wallace but they're different women different

00:35:12.960 generations so so so when harry and megan go to places like australia like they recently did

00:35:18.420 But yeah, I think it is a different situation where because they did say, we, you know, we will give up the money.

00:35:31.080 We will not be working royals.

00:35:32.500 I mean, they didn't want to do it that way, but then they accepted it.

00:35:37.320 So they're not like constantly begging the royal family for money, like the way the Windsors were.

00:35:43.460 Harry has got a lot of money on his own from Diana, actually.

00:35:47.600 he's very wealthy because of her estate um but yeah there's this there's this like

00:35:55.520 i think i'd wish like the windsor we're talking about how the windsors had such empty lives after

00:36:01.820 the abdication right because they didn't have anything to do they still thought they should

00:36:05.600 be treated like a king and queen they still acted like he was a king they still you know demanded

00:36:10.700 to be served and and bound to and everything like he was a king i don't think harry and megan are

00:36:15.560 like that at all I mean I think they completely accept a different reality but I think had the

00:36:21.520 Windsors decided to focus on charitable things they would have had a lot easier later you know

00:36:30.780 marriage and life and a life with a purpose but they just didn't they just indulged and indulged

00:36:36.380 and indulged and indulged and their life was one long empty party and and it was sad whereas where

00:36:44.860 I think Harry and Megan have a chance.

00:36:47.800 I don't know that they've done it yet,

00:36:49.080 but they have a chance.

00:36:50.420 If they do kind of maybe pivot less

00:36:53.060 toward the Netflix shows and things

00:36:56.840 and more toward the good works,

00:37:00.880 then they may have a happier,

00:37:04.940 you know, rest of their time.

00:37:07.460 You know, but I think it's a choice.

00:37:09.620 But the Windsor's never made,

00:37:11.740 they didn't make that choice.

00:37:13.220 They sort of lived in, and I mean, as you know, we're guessing because as any historical fiction novelist does, like what you think was happening based on what the facts are.

00:37:22.700 But they, it's just sort of a life, especially for David, of just bitterness, feeling like I should have this life and I don't.

00:37:30.000 And just not finding a different way to live, but just being mad about the life that you don't have.

00:37:35.440 Well, he didn't think it through.

00:37:36.560 I mean, I don't think he was the sharpest tool in this show.

00:37:39.280 I mean, I have to say, I don't think any of the Windsor men of that era anyway.

00:37:43.220 were all that you know all that intelligent again they married women who were extremely bright and

00:37:51.360 extremely smart and extremely strategic they weren't you know i but again there wasn't a

00:37:59.080 precedent for anything that he had done so everyone's kind of making it up as they go along

00:38:03.780 and also you know when we get back to wallace and megan markle there are similar similarities

00:38:08.460 and that they were both American women and divorced.

00:38:11.760 But Wallace was born in a time 0.65

00:38:15.720 when a woman couldn't make her own life. 0.99

00:38:18.200 Like she was dependent on men 1.00

00:38:20.060 from the time she was born for money,

00:38:23.740 for society, for a home, for security.

00:38:27.560 She was born into this kind of like 0.60

00:38:29.440 old Southern kind of aristocratic families in Baltimore.

00:38:35.700 but she her mother married the poor younger brother and he died and so they were always 0.51

00:38:41.680 dependent on her uncle saw as she was growing up for everything and then when she wanted to get

00:38:47.280 away from uncle saw her only choice was to marry so you know she married she learned that very

00:38:53.240 quickly wallace did that men were her only key to the future she wanted she was an ambitious woman 0.99

00:38:59.860 she wanted security but she wanted nice things and she wanted society she wanted grand homes 1.00

00:39:05.080 She wanted servants. And the only way to get that was to marry the right man. And the first man she 0.97

00:39:09.780 married was not the right man. The second one was more, but he still didn't give her everything that

00:39:16.360 the Prince of Wales could give her. So, but Meghan, she's not that. She was, she had a career before

00:39:24.880 she met Harry. You know, she's a woman of her times, right? She, she's a strong woman with her 0.94

00:39:29.620 own career she didn't need harry to buy her fancy clothes and jewels the way that windsor or wallace

00:39:35.480 needed david that's i think where the similarities kind of yeah right yeah and that's where i think

00:39:41.460 it can be sort of facile sometimes when people are trying to criticize megan markle to be like 0.57

00:39:45.260 oh she's and they're explaining oh she's a gold digger and this and this and this it's like she

00:39:48.600 was a millionaire when she met him because of her acting career like she's not the same well but

00:39:52.940 also to not demonize wallace simpson where it's like to get ahead in life you had to marry

00:39:58.620 strategically and she did and that doesn't make her that that's not a bad choice if that's the

00:40:03.940 only choice you have if the choice is to like be poor or marry well you shouldn't demonize someone

00:40:08.680 who married well but can we flip over to elizabeth bows lion yeah yeah sure that's where well no i

00:40:14.600 mean i could talk about walls all day but i wear the book is really a strength of your book i think

00:40:20.980 is that you're focusing on the two women and their similarities and differences and elizabeth

00:40:25.180 Bo's lion is a much less examined figure as a young woman. Even the movie you mentioned,

00:40:31.120 like the King's speech, it's like about Bertie and his speech therapy and Helena Bonham Carter

00:40:35.340 is there being supportive and lovely. But I love to dig in behind to sort of imagine what was she

00:40:43.000 really, what maybe was she really like? She couldn't have just been lovely and smiling and

00:40:47.560 happy 24 hours a day. And that's what your book gets into. And that's where I found it

00:40:51.240 really interesting yeah so we you know we we do have that image of wallace as a scheming woman

00:40:56.520 and and and the power behind the throne in a lot of ways and and you know manipulative and and 1.00

00:41:02.540 certainly i think she was but i think you know like you said we go back to her childhood there's 1.00

00:41:07.840 a reason um and then she runs into this kind of wall that is elizabeth buzz lion and the queen

00:41:16.020 mom i mean everyone has this image of the queen mom she lived to be a hundred and some so you know

00:41:21.100 not that long ago that she died and this you know smiling lovely beloved figure the kind of the face

00:41:28.760 of domesticity for the royal family and like also during you know the face of world of british pluck

00:41:34.840 during world war ii things that she really was but she also there was more to her than that

00:41:40.440 i think a lot of people like to compare her to kate and i think there are a lot of similarities

00:41:44.620 is there too in that they both kind of embody the more domestic side of the royal family they're you

00:41:51.420 know they're their mothers first before they're women i think in many people's minds they don't

00:41:59.340 rock the boat unlike a wallace or a megan who brought modernity to their roles who were more

00:42:08.460 of their actual times and i think he and elizabeth were more like of a generation or two in the past

00:42:15.520 which so but that's not to say they weren't just as strong but they just did it i wouldn't say in

00:42:21.320 what might be more and i'm using quotes here well unquote acceptable way for women to exert power

00:42:30.620 versus naked ambition they kind of closed it a little bit well and it's just funny that the

00:42:39.320 two examples which again are four very different women in very different circumstances but we've

00:42:43.660 got the british woman versus the american woman and there's something about americans are more 0.59

00:42:49.640 brash and sell it like it is and british women it's like oh quiet smiling polite friendly

00:42:55.560 it's just funny yeah it is very very similar I think and again I'm going to go back to the whole 0.56

00:43:02.320 idea of the family thing like even before they became the king and queen Elizabeth and Bertie

00:43:08.500 were just beloved for being the Duke and Duchess of York that was their title and just this domestic

00:43:16.140 unit that with their beautiful little English princesses you know Elizabeth and Margaret Rose

00:43:22.320 and they just embody this ideal family.

00:43:25.340 And I see that today with Kate and William

00:43:27.960 and their three children too, right?

00:43:30.220 So getting back to Elizabeth.

00:43:32.260 So Elizabeth was born the daughter of a Scottish earl.

00:43:36.540 And she was born actually where she was born.

00:43:41.920 Her mother doesn't even remember where she was born.

00:43:44.180 Her mother had like 11 children.

00:43:46.180 But Glum's Castle in Scotland,

00:43:48.680 which was the castle that Shakespeare had in mind

00:43:51.940 when he wrote Macbeth to his son's castle that is where Elizabeth that was her in a hereditary 0.86

00:43:57.280 castle in Scotland and she was the like the last she was the youngest um her brother might have

00:44:03.540 been I think she and her brother she and her brother were like very young and her siblings

00:44:07.540 were much older and so she was a very spoiled little girl loved and had her governesses and

00:44:13.740 they had several homes and a town home in London and the blue castle and um you know very loving

00:44:19.680 family world war one comes along like it did with everyone and she did she lost one brother in

00:44:25.340 battle and one brother um permanently um in you know mentally injured because of the war

00:44:31.800 and their home was turned into a convalescent home for a lot of soldiers and so kind of

00:44:36.940 yeah yeah yeah and so like elizabeth kind of as she's growing into a young woman at the time of

00:44:43.400 the war she she would you know she got very attached to the british the soldiers convalescing

00:44:49.860 and then learned very quickly they would be set back to war and so many of them would die so she

00:44:54.880 kind of you know is growing up among all this these horrors right and then the war is over and

00:45:01.520 everyone kind of expects that london society is just going to continue as if there'd never been

00:45:05.880 a war and and to a certain extent it kind of does and she has her debut and it's presented to the

00:45:11.700 King and Queen, but she's doing it at Holyrood because she's Scottish.

00:45:15.340 Her father's title is a Scottish title.

00:45:18.660 And she, you know, goes to parties with the Prince of Wales and his younger brother,

00:45:23.740 Brother Bertie.

00:45:24.700 And Bertie is absolutely infatuated with Elizabeth from the minute he meets her.

00:45:32.040 And she's not quite so infatuated.

00:45:34.220 And she probably was in love with his equerry.

00:45:37.800 But Bertie perseveres.

00:45:39.640 I mean, I think, you know, for all his hits, and I think a lot of them are kind of, unfortunately, because of his relationship with his father, like, evidently, Bernie was left handed, but at the time, that wasn't acceptable. So he had to have his left hand tied to his body and learn to be right handed. That's why many people think he had the stutter that he had, right. But he has a kindness. And he has, he's very handsome, too. I mean, he's not as striking as his older brother, but he's very handsome.

00:46:07.800 and he has a kindness and a determination to overcome his his perceived impediments and of

00:46:17.660 you know he he doesn't give up and he proposes to elizabeth three i and she finally and she says no

00:46:25.560 initially i think because she was just like i don't the royal family like that is i don't want

00:46:33.200 that's choosing to marry one of the people in this family means choosing a life it's not just

00:46:38.440 like i like this guy let's make it work it's like no it's it's this huge commitment and she just

00:46:43.700 like doesn't know she wants that and i respect that she that she really thought this through

00:46:48.460 yeah even if he's not going to be king he's still you know a prominent member of the royal family

00:46:54.300 and and of course when you become i think it's everyone finds out when you marry the into the

00:46:59.860 a family, it's like suddenly your family doesn't exist anymore. Right. I mean, it's like they're

00:47:04.280 always going to take precedent and dictate where you're going to live, where you're going to spend

00:47:08.960 the time. And I do think Elizabeth was fundamentally, I don't want to say lazy, but she didn't like to 1.00

00:47:15.200 work real hard. I think she enjoyed life. She had a great capacity to enjoy life. And she was

00:47:21.640 closeted and spoiled and she had a charming smile and she was very pretty for her era and wanted to

00:47:29.080 be adored by all and she was and that was that was good for her you know that would be enough

00:47:34.480 of a life for her and you know birdie was gonna upend that but she eventually was run over by i

00:47:41.100 think it's just determination and who doesn't want to be adored that way right you know you know and

00:47:47.180 he put her on a pedestal and so they marry and it is a happy marriage and they have the two little

00:47:52.940 girls and um but elizabeth was manipulative in in her own way you know i think she enjoyed

00:48:01.760 she had very good friends with david and i think she enjoyed even though the the royal brothers

00:48:06.540 and there were two three other uh boys and a girl in the family um and the the younger prince john

00:48:13.700 died uh as a child so there's the duke of kent and then um oh what's the other one

00:48:20.460 i don't know these are i don't know and then there's a princess royal but elizabeth was like

00:48:26.660 the sister-in-law of all these handsome royal princes and then she enjoyed being to send her

00:48:31.320 attention and she was you know for a long time and then a lot of this comes along and so i think

00:48:38.280 well i think elizabeth was a little jealous i mean there's there are rumors that elizabeth had

00:48:44.420 been in love with the prince of wales and he did not return she wasn't his type you know she was

00:48:49.920 not angular she wasn't married and she wasn't high society you know she's a little plump

00:48:57.900 she had the beautiful english complexion but she didn't dress very fashionably at all she was 0.83

00:49:04.240 happy to let her mother-in-law queen mary's dressmaker make her dresses for a very long time

00:49:10.260 um so she's just not his cup of tea so there there but some people thought she was in love

00:49:17.060 with them when she was a young debutante and um so that that may have been the source of some of her

00:49:23.020 uh irritation with wallace simpson but i think wallace very much looked down on elizabeth like

00:49:29.040 a lot of people underestimate that kind of domestic english rose right and i think elizabeth proved

00:49:35.620 that she was not to be underestimated and i think she proved to be very adept at manipulating the

00:49:42.100 press and getting pictures of her and her beautiful long, you know,

00:49:46.640 darling daughters in the press to counteract, you know, 0.99

00:49:51.840 when Elizabeth, when the press became aware of Wallace,

00:49:55.800 to kind of counteract Wallace's, 1.00

00:49:58.720 that image and make Wallace look like the scarlet women.

00:50:02.100 And I think there, I speculate in my novel, 1.00

00:50:05.040 but I wouldn't be surprised if Elizabeth had been responsible for turning the

00:50:09.260 press onto wallace and david and and leaking all that i will say because i've just finished doing

00:50:17.660 all these episodes about the regency era and so that's like 200 years earlier the british royal

00:50:23.120 family was leaking to the tabloids like this is i would be surprised if she if she wasn't because

00:50:28.680 that's just what this family has been doing since tabloids were invented just to make you to sort

00:50:33.400 jockeying for popularity among the public, but also just within the family.

00:50:39.380 Like, so I think I'd be surprised if she hadn't done that because everyone was doing that.

00:50:44.360 I think she did.

00:50:46.260 And I think she was very much the one when all this happened.

00:50:50.660 I mean, again, I don't think Elizabeth woke up one morning and said, oh, I want to be

00:50:54.500 queen.

00:50:55.220 I will make this happen.

00:50:56.180 I don't think that happened at all.

00:50:57.600 I don't think she really wanted to be queen, but I don't think she hated being queen either.

00:51:01.880 Like, Bernie was terrified of the notion of being king.

00:51:05.500 He didn't want to be king.

00:51:07.620 He wished, you know, but when it starts to become a possibility that David's going to

00:51:13.760 abdicate, I think Elizabeth just kind of perks up and goes, I would be very good at this.

00:51:18.980 And she was very good at this. 0.78

00:51:21.940 Hitler, during the war, called her the most dangerous woman in all of Europe because of,

00:51:27.740 um you know just her courage and and and luck and and her smile and this deceptively soft

00:51:37.060 exterior but inside was a spine of steel and i think that's the that's like the i think about

00:51:43.580 queen lisbeth the second also i think that's the thing about the like quote-unquote english rose

00:51:48.020 or kate middleton also where someone it's like you look so sweet and pretty but like but you're

00:51:53.120 so strong like i think that's like and i think in world war ii that really sort of solidified

00:51:58.740 sort of the british identity and yeah and that became yeah i think you know world war ii is very

00:52:08.360 very hard impossible to imagine uh an england by which there was a king edward and queen wallace

00:52:16.620 on the throne during World War II, not only because of the alleged Nazi stuff, but it's

00:52:23.000 just impossible to imagine them rising to the occasion the way Bertie and Elizabeth did.

00:52:30.260 I think the war made them.

00:52:31.680 Like, had it not been for the war, they would not have been solidified, you know, as the

00:52:40.280 absolute emblem of British people and plucked and just idolized and revered in the way that they

00:52:48.780 were. Had the war not happened, I think they just would have been, you know, king and queen,

00:52:54.340 but like not all that special. Right. And I think the war made them, especially Bertie,

00:53:00.160 kind of step up into this leadership. He became more comfortable speaking. He became more

00:53:06.020 comfortable leading people because he was always like, like, like he's the king, but he'd walk

00:53:10.040 into a room and he'd try to kind of like hide away because he didn't think anyone wanted to

00:53:13.440 talk to him but he's the he's the freaking queen king and whereas elizabeth will walk into a room

00:53:18.060 and just turn it off you know she loved the attention but birdie did not but i think the 0.51

00:53:23.600 war made him into a figure who you know led a nation and everyone acknowledged elizabeth

00:53:31.220 especially acknowledged that she was the power behind the throne you know she was the helpmate

00:53:36.700 for the king she was the woman who made the king she uh was not afraid uh to to i think maybe plant

00:53:43.280 some of those stories it's interesting i'm sure she didn't plant this story but the fact that

00:53:48.140 she was born in this macbeth castle and then she's kind of the woman who's the power behind

00:53:51.760 the king is kind of like okay it's a bit on the nose okay yeah a little bit on the nose

00:53:56.620 you're not quite lady macbeth i wouldn't call her i wouldn't i wouldn't call her lady macbeth

00:54:00.940 But like, some aspects.

00:54:03.700 Wallace and David, they saw through her, I think, in a way that nobody else did.

00:54:09.080 Like they knew and they called her cookie in a very dismissive way.

00:54:13.120 They were both Wallace and Edward, David, in case people are getting confused, Edward, David, same person.

00:54:20.300 They were both very stylish, very fashion forward.

00:54:24.460 They were both, I would say, anorexic.

00:54:27.200 I was going to say they're both very thin. 0.88

00:54:28.920 They're both chain smokers.

00:54:30.940 And a lot of people suspect that perhaps they had eating disorders, that even before he met her, evidently, David dieted, religiously exercised like a madman, was very obsessed with his figure.

00:54:44.140 And Wallace was as well. And then you have Elizabeth who was, you know, I don't want to I know today we talk about body image in a very, very different way.

00:54:53.380 back then you know everybody's weight and their appearance was you know that was just you know

00:54:59.560 fair game people would just and and so back then Wallace and David you know certainly 0.99

00:55:07.400 impregnately and publicly made fun of Elizabeth for her appearance you know let's just say she 1.00

00:55:13.080 she just enjoyed her her her teas and and her alcohol she was very famous for being a

00:55:19.660 One of the things I know about her, she liked to drink a lot, but also just like, even if we're not looking at the bodies, she had like a round face and Wallace had a very like angular bony face, like just from the neck up, they clearly were very different.

00:55:32.520 Well, you know, people do suspect that Wallace had that intersex condition called androgen insensitivity, insensitivity syndrome, where that she was born with X, Y, the male chromosomes, but developed more as a female.

00:55:49.820 There's no one knows for sure if that was it, but she was always very different looking.

00:55:57.780 Straight up and down sort of figure. 0.98

00:55:59.280 no hips no waist no bosom um very aina the strong jaw she never had children so there that's

00:56:08.760 another speculate you know people speculate about that and again you just compare that to 1.00

00:56:13.040 elizabeth who had the more you know traditional like 1930s 1940s kind of softer figure very

00:56:21.140 feminine in her appearance for sure um and anyway so it all leads to that david and 0.90

00:56:28.220 always called her cookie because she resembled a cook um or perhaps she had been uh sired or her

00:56:36.900 mother was a cook there's a there's lady colin campbell wrote a very uh interesting biography

00:56:44.480 of elizabeth bosian and where she called into question her parentage that there was a rumor

00:56:49.580 that her mother was not able to bear children anymore so that his father her father had

00:56:55.440 relations with a french cook in their household to get the last two children because they wanted

00:57:00.140 a bigger family um nine nine was not enough but you did say there was like yeah there was all the

00:57:05.900 siblings and then she and one brother then there was quite a gap so that so the lady colin campbell

00:57:11.860 in her biography brings this up i've never seen any one else mention that but if it was a rumor

00:57:17.900 i could definitely see wallace and david spreading the rumor this is the thing this is the thing like

00:57:23.380 even you know it it takes me back to episodes i've done talking about ancient rome or something

00:57:28.040 like what we're left with is historians historical fiction writers is looking at the records that

00:57:32.860 were left by people who hated other people so it's like is this true or did someone just

00:57:39.520 spread this rumor like stuff about exactly like was this really her parentage it's like well why

00:57:44.640 would some well someone maybe wallace by that rumor but then it's like the fact that wallace

00:57:48.580 might have had this intersex condition which like is the thing that we understand better now still

00:57:53.320 not a lot of acceptance but at the like there's been other people in history where people are

00:57:57.580 like oh but were they secretly intersex and that was used as kind of a slander like it's so like

00:58:02.840 we can't trace back where these rumors come from so all you can do is just kind of be like well she

00:58:07.100 elizabeth boseline was this domestic seeming goddess with these children and she's got her

00:58:13.060 round figure wallace is like thin and on a diet and no children like it's easy to see what weapons 1.00

00:58:20.780 these women would have had against each other like how they could criticize the other one 1.00

00:58:25.120 just based on societal prejudices and we have to talk about the china dossier um so wallace spent 0.98

00:58:33.820 a year in china and she was married to her first husband and there she always called it her lotus

00:58:39.000 year and she also always favored a lot of chinese and japanese kind of styles that she would wear

00:58:46.200 it was well suited to her like trim figure very much and and and collected jade and porcelain

00:58:52.520 decorated homes in that way and um so we think at least you know i think that as the room you know

00:59:01.960 as the situation is getting worse and worse with the abdication and they've got to find a way to

00:59:06.440 stop david from being obsessed with this woman that that perhaps elizabeth um kind of started

00:59:15.060 rumors about what Wallace was actually getting up to while she was in China, including visiting

00:59:21.300 Chinese brothels and learning how to please a man in that way. And that becomes part of the

00:59:32.460 rumors that are still surrounding Wallace Simpson today. And I fully believe that Elizabeth

00:59:39.800 would have done that you know that that's another example of her exerting power and and controlling 1.00

00:59:47.160 a narrative and slandering her rival in a gossipy kind of frivolous you know feminine way but yet 1.00

00:59:56.580 like setting government officials you know on the case to go find this stuff out and like we to this

01:00:03.340 day we don't know whether there was a china dossier but it was definitely rumored during

01:00:09.420 the abdication and wallace was aware of that and david was too there was a rumor that it existed

01:00:14.840 and it's just such a classic i can't even tell you how many examples i have but like

01:00:21.000 marie antoinette and mary queen of scots and like every roman queen like there's rumors of like and

01:00:26.540 she spent the night in a brothel it's like that oh it's a classic slander and you can never prove 0.52

01:00:31.880 or disprove it but it sticks to people it's like how else could how else could she be witch the 0.71

01:00:37.320 prince of wales you know how how could she steal our king were it not for evil exotic ways i mean

01:00:45.860 you learn these like these like you know and especially then where you're looking at like 1.00

01:00:49.980 asia is this foreign place and just like when they sexualize these techniques from these like 1.00

01:00:55.900 chinese women and and it like steals our british men like yeah yeah i mean if you're elizabeth 1.00

01:01:02.380 that's your weapon is just to make her look like the trashiest most vulgar slut yep and it's 1.00

01:01:09.100 dangerous to the country really and it's dangerous and it's slutty yeah and so the government you 1.00

01:01:15.940 know turned again and not that i don't think the government would ever have allowed it anyway but 0.97

01:01:20.520 you know it's just one more reason for the government to to force him to abdicate and

01:01:26.000 or give her up or abdicate you know and then he chose to abdicate i truly don't think she

01:01:31.360 what I did to advocate I think she really there's nothing in it for her I think she was like this 0.99

01:01:37.660 is going to ruin both of our lives like let's marry some princess Diana type like let's just

01:01:43.560 keep going yeah yeah and they and evidently they even talked about I have this in my book but like

01:01:48.460 there they were there were discussions like let her be another uh Maria Fitzhuber I think it was

01:01:54.240 yeah who was like the the mistress of uh George the fourth and they're like just if she would do

01:02:00.700 that and i mean like listen even called her his you know the king's little cutie he he's like well

01:02:06.000 let the king have his cutie and he's referring to wallace simpson now you know was she more

01:02:10.960 ambitious than that i mean i actually don't i think at times she probably did allow herself

01:02:15.760 to believe she could be queen i mean like what girl wouldn't in this case right you got david

01:02:20.680 telling you i will not be crowned without you by my side of course you're going to let your

01:02:27.260 fantasies but I don't think that was her original goal I don't think that was like when she became

01:02:34.460 aware of the Prince of Wales back in 1931 or 32 whenever it was I don't think she said oh I will

01:02:42.020 become Queen of England I don't think that is over it I think she probably would have been okay

01:02:47.100 you know staying married to her husband and having just being his mistress I just wanted to point out

01:02:54.280 I don't think I've ever said this in the podcast,

01:02:55.700 but whenever I'm doing research in any time period

01:02:57.700 and somebody seems like they're going to become king or queen,

01:03:00.460 but they have a really interesting, cool name,

01:03:02.700 I always know they're never going to do it

01:03:04.740 because the kings and queens are always called,

01:03:07.480 the queens are always Mary Elizabeth.

01:03:10.000 And like, you know, there's not going to be a queen of Wallace.

01:03:13.200 That's never going to happen.

01:03:14.300 But it's like when you're going back in history,

01:03:15.660 you're like, there was never a King Roger.

01:03:17.140 And then you're like, oh, and then he was executed.

01:03:18.940 Okay, yeah, got it.

01:03:20.700 That's interesting.

01:03:22.080 With an interesting name, it's like,

01:03:23.200 oh this is a spoiler for me because i know this isn't gonna happen i know you're not gonna marry

01:03:27.140 wallace oftentimes they do take different names though right when they become king yeah albert

01:03:33.040 became george and and and david became edward and and famously when the wallace she might have

01:03:38.660 become like she could have become like victoria or like she might have changed i mean i think it's

01:03:42.680 only usually the the actual king or queen ruling that changes their name right because i think

01:03:49.940 elizabeth the second was famously asked what will be your regnal name and she was like elizabeth

01:03:56.920 she was lucky i mean but she could have been another victoria had she chosen to do that

01:04:04.240 you know i don't know can we sorry i just i meant to ask you this earlier on but like her name is

01:04:08.880 so unusual i've never heard of anyone else wallace and it was her father's name or something like

01:04:15.040 but yeah so she was born Bessie Wallace that was her her given name I think Wallace was her

01:04:21.780 father's name and Bessie so Bessie Wallace Warfield was her the name she had at birth

01:04:28.680 and then her father died very like she was only five months old when her father died

01:04:34.300 and then her mother became dependent on her father's brother for months to to live even

01:04:41.500 know that you know she was kind of genteel poverty um and then so she was born Bessie

01:04:46.440 and always said it and when she was like in grade school she changed her name she was like

01:04:51.820 Bessie Wallace sounds like a cow she does so then she'd be so she just switched it and became

01:04:58.140 Wallace and she just dropped the Bessie so that's just an early example of this woman creating her 0.86

01:05:03.800 own narrative right and and and leaning into what makes her different and striking because I think 0.83

01:05:10.140 she knew that money-wise, I mean, she had the good breeding, but she didn't have the money 1.00

01:05:15.920 and she didn't have the traditional feminine looks of everyone else in her class. I mean, 1.00

01:05:20.200 you see pictures of her in like her boarding school. She's very striking. I mean, she just

01:05:26.360 does not blend in at all with that angular figure and all. I think she just learned early on,

01:05:33.280 I will stand out by playing up my differentness, my otherness. And I think she probably embraced

01:05:39.140 the idea of an unusual name of wallace i think well and that's that just adds to the whole thing

01:05:45.180 too that it's wallace this american you know modern woman with this kind of androgynous name

01:05:50.900 a kind of androgynous look versus elizabeth the like perfect english rose with her yeah you know

01:05:56.860 curvy figure and her two daughters it's just like it's such a like a you're like you write fiction

01:06:02.960 but like this is someone making up a story might have come up with the same name and opposite

01:06:08.880 that's true that's true they couldn't and then we have the Megan and Kate thing now I mean it is

01:06:15.740 very there are so on there are parallels there are a lot of differences but there are parallels

01:06:22.960 you know so I think and then you know there's one reason why I love the book because I do when I'm

01:06:28.320 writing novels set in the past I am always looking for ways to tie them into the present

01:06:32.380 whether it's the issues women are facing or you know or you know in this case as I'm writing

01:06:38.720 I'm going, well, you know, feuding Windsor brothers, here we are again.

01:06:42.200 And then the whole Andrew Mountbatten thing, all that happened.

01:06:46.080 All the, you know, the more recent, you know, things happening with him being arrested and all that happened long after I had already turned the book in.

01:06:53.720 But I mean, I see the parallel there between that, his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and all that with David and Wallace's relationship with Hitler.

01:07:05.420 yeah because i think the in in the windsor's case the royal family they knew you know they knew long

01:07:13.240 before the public ever found out they knew that what was going on between hitler and and the

01:07:18.980 windsors but they they're back then the government and the royal family i think uh wanted to protect

01:07:25.920 the royal family more than maybe they do today and the press did too so that this stuff was not

01:07:31.600 made public until decades later but we now call into question like how much does king charles did

01:07:39.780 he know of his brother's involvement as with epstein and did he try to suppress it and you

01:07:47.380 can say the way that the royal family suppressed the nazi stuff back in the day well that's the

01:07:53.480 thing like it's you mentioned about how like kate meddleton is somebody who presents as sort of like

01:07:58.940 someone from maybe a few generations earlier than the age that she actually is. And Elizabeth

01:08:03.900 Bow's line was also sort of old fashioned. So the royal family themselves just, they have this

01:08:08.920 old fashioned quality where I think they're trying to, I think successfully, they're portraying

01:08:13.600 themselves as sort of timeless, kind of ageless, like the modern world doesn't affect us. And then

01:08:17.960 you get someone like Wallace Simpson or how Meghan Markle, but even how David was dressing,

01:08:23.660 like he was being like I'm having affairs with like educated women and like he's he was too

01:08:32.540 modern for what the royal family wanted to present themselves as and it kind of worked out in a way

01:08:37.600 I mean to the detriment of Bertie dying so young that they came in and they're this kind of perfect

01:08:42.500 domestic family so stalwart during World War II and that kind of rebranded the royals as like

01:08:48.560 we're you know like this kind of like we're solid we're timeless we're classic i do think that like

01:08:55.200 uh this idea of the royal family is just kind of like the fall the family of england like

01:09:02.780 victoria was like the mother of england i mean that that gots that has become a stronger branding

01:09:09.900 myth message i think as the decades have gone on like there was the some of that with victoria

01:09:17.020 There was some of that with George and Mary after World War I, but still like King George and Queen Mary were really like regal figures.

01:09:24.320 Like there was nothing warm about either of them or, you know, maternal or paternal about either of them.

01:09:30.460 And then you get, you know, Bertie and Elizabeth and the two little daughters were.

01:09:35.840 That's like the moment where the royal family really leans into this like middle class kind of image that make it royal.

01:09:45.640 Right.

01:09:45.980 and um and it didn't work with Diana and Charles it just didn't work and so what happens after all

01:09:55.160 that and and and and Queen Elizabeth and and Prince Philip I mean to a certain extent they

01:10:00.800 still kind of carried on that happy family kind of image even of a really main being was that

01:10:04.720 behind the scenes but then Charles and Diana kind of blow it out of the water so what happens next

01:10:09.460 you get William and Kate it's like it's like like I don't know if it's intentional or they're just

01:10:14.780 lucky but it's like whenever something comes along to kind of shake up the royal family and

01:10:20.600 make it you know in peril you know make people question whether or not you know why am I paying

01:10:26.160 these people to be you know live in castles then some somehow because there was a very real fear

01:10:32.540 with the abdication that this would be the end of the royal family yeah yeah and it could have been

01:10:37.740 yeah it could have been it could have been and then what happens you get you know though you

01:10:42.260 You get David and, I mean,

01:10:44.180 Bertie and Elizabeth and little daughters.

01:10:46.360 And then, you know,

01:10:47.280 that secures the age of Elizabeth II

01:10:49.160 and it's very stable.

01:10:50.560 Then Charles and Diana come along

01:10:52.240 and things are rocky again.

01:10:53.500 And now you have William and Kate

01:10:54.960 and their beautiful children

01:10:56.460 and their happy families

01:10:57.520 to secure the future again.

01:10:59.560 I just find it very interesting

01:11:01.480 that it seems like after a real crisis,

01:11:05.520 they lean into the domestic thing

01:11:08.000 and they happen to have

01:11:09.660 the right people to do it.

01:11:11.500 Exactly.

01:11:11.860 But then it's kind of like to have the domestic thing, you need to have the villain who you have to portray as sort of like, well, this is the opposite.

01:11:19.200 Yeah.

01:11:19.940 Unfortunately, you know, it was, I think, unfortunately, Megan and maybe less, unfortunately, Wallace.

01:11:26.280 I think they're so similar in that they were, they are, not were, are.

01:11:31.960 But I mean, they just like represent their times better.

01:11:35.040 Like Wallace was a divorcee when that was starting to be acceptable.

01:11:38.560 And she drank cocktails and she wore Chanel when that was kind of high society and the opposite of Elizabeth.

01:11:44.780 And then Meghan comes along and she's she's got her career and she's, you know, got her her own identity.

01:11:50.580 And she and she's, you know, biracial and she represents her at times better than I will say that Kate Middleton does.

01:11:58.940 I mean, she just represents who the world is. And it's their modernity that is threatening to the royal family and to a lot of British people who prefer the royal family to remain stuck in traditions decades past. 0.81

01:12:16.200 I think also I keep I again I want to like it's just there's there's some overlapping themes but

01:12:23.000 I like Meghan Markle is such a different person from Wallace Simpson Wallace Simpson like

01:12:26.360 affiliated with Nazis grew up in a really racist time was a really racist person Meghan Markle

01:12:31.860 biracial like yeah that's not what she's up to but the fact that both of them could care less

01:12:37.460 about the royal family I think is also threatening the fact that they're American like you were

01:12:42.040 saying like wallace didn't necessarily want to be queen and megan fell in love with harry as a

01:12:46.540 person seemingly like neither of them was like i understand and i'm gonna be part of this family

01:12:52.800 they're both just kind of like well i like this guy so we're gonna hang out and see where it goes

01:12:56.480 versus elizabeth who's like and kate who i think were like i am intentionally going to marry into

01:13:01.640 this yeah yeah i think they're i mean maybe elizabeth not so intentionally since she turned

01:13:07.300 him down twice but but i mean she certainly knew that when marrying what marrying into the royal

01:13:17.480 family was going to mean to her and she was not going to upset the boat and neither was kate like

01:13:22.240 they accept what being married into the royal family means to the women and megan absolutely

01:13:29.580 didn't accept that and neither would wallace have accepted that i just wonder if another american

01:13:34.740 you know next generation enters the scene like is this going to happen again like to americans

01:13:40.160 fundamentally just are they never i can i don't know if louis or george starts dating an american

01:13:46.500 i can see the british press being like no no i mean to be honest i i don't know where the what

01:13:53.400 i don't know what's the future of the royal family is no one knows i feel that they're in a real

01:13:57.400 weird place right now you know like where losing kate i mean losing megan and harry i think

01:14:04.880 was so so bad for everybody involved you know i think harry and megan could have really

01:14:11.300 if you look at the pictures from um the the the last gathering of the working royals

01:14:18.300 there was no one under the age of 40 in that photo right and uh so they're they're quickly

01:14:26.900 becoming i mean they're just like the only young people are kate and william at this point and

01:14:32.740 they're very protective of their children they're not gonna let their children go out there

01:14:35.520 and and be a working royal too soon right so it's like i feel like the whole the royal family's kind

01:14:41.140 of on the verge of dying out and because of that like they're losing all of the young royals who

01:14:48.480 you know for whatever reasons they're not working royals anymore and the ones that are there are so

01:14:54.020 old and and also you know the whole what's going on you know how much they knew about

01:14:58.900 andrew and epstein i think that is going to damage them and it is already damaging i mean

01:15:03.920 king charles is out there doing his thing but he's getting a lot of people asking what did you know

01:15:08.900 i don't know what the future of the royal family is and choosing to remain so rooted in the

01:15:16.020 traditions of the past as far as kate and william and like they don't seem to want to like he's

01:15:22.760 already said he doesn't want to live at buckingham palace like you know i don't i just don't know how

01:15:27.600 much i don't know i don't know i think it's gonna be really interesting to see i don't know that

01:15:30.940 tradition is going to save them in this case is what i'm probably trying to say i think it's

01:15:35.080 interesting because you're so your book the winds are fair out now it's available this week like i

01:15:39.720 feel like books on this topic like it couldn't be more timely because of like ending about in

01:15:46.260 windsor people the british royal family is never not in the news so i think that this you know for

01:15:51.780 your first full-on British royal family-based book. It connects maybe to current events so

01:15:57.140 strongly. I think that'll be really interesting to see how people respond to it because I think

01:16:00.880 there are a lot of people who don't know the story of the abdication crisis and who Wallace

01:16:06.900 was and who Elizabeth was. I think it'll be interesting. You can't not, I couldn't read

01:16:13.100 this book and not think about parallels to modern day. So much of what we just talked about was

01:16:16.540 parallels to modern day. I think it's really interesting to have a historical fiction novel

01:16:21.100 that's so connected with modern times well yeah thanks no i mean i certainly yeah there's always

01:16:28.280 my kind of my intention but although you know people have been writing about the royal family

01:16:32.980 this is shakespeare science right i mean they're fascinating like i kind of look at it it's like

01:16:37.640 this is a family drama this book is a family drama this happens to be royal but it is a family drama

01:16:44.420 like we all have issues with brothers and sisters-in-laws not getting a lot i mean

01:16:49.580 yeah it just happened to change history and then also I would say just similar to your other book

01:16:57.040 about like Truman Capote and the women it's just I don't know if people make this comparison but

01:17:01.020 it's like today people love watching like the reality tv like the housewives and what they're

01:17:05.220 up to and it's just it's that sort of drama but just dressed dressed up differently like people

01:17:09.860 always messy and complicated relationships like it's it's that sort of vibe too I think

01:17:15.020 Very, very Real Housewives-y.

01:17:16.640 It's like Real Housewives of the Windsors.

01:17:19.080 And there could be a reality series.

01:17:21.720 So, yeah.

01:17:23.580 Very much. 1.00

01:17:24.760 And I always listen to my, you know, kind of royal mean girls, too.

01:17:27.880 Right?

01:17:28.540 Very much. 1.00

01:17:29.560 I mean, the way these two women hated each other all their lives, 0.99

01:17:32.440 until the very end.

01:17:33.360 I think the very end, perhaps,

01:17:35.820 there was an acknowledgement of the ties that bind,

01:17:38.620 even when you're on opposite sides of history.

01:17:42.460 Right?

01:17:42.780 Yeah.

01:17:43.000 Like, when you're the last one standing.

01:17:45.020 like the as these two women were from the whole thing that was their personal family drama but

01:17:51.300 absolutely changed history it's like there's a a realization that there is something that

01:17:56.180 binds you together you know in the end um but yeah so you're gonna i'm just looking at your

01:18:02.860 website you've got various events that you're going to be doing promoting this book so if

01:18:06.760 people want to see where you're going to be um events what is the best thing just looking at

01:18:12.000 your website or social media or what are you up to i'm on sub stack um called melanie benjamin

01:18:16.520 the reluctant extrovert and so i do a lot of sub stack i'm on instagram facebook i got my website

01:18:22.100 melaniebenjamin.com um there is you know a section for events there is a section for that i will be

01:18:28.180 putting together now i have it for all my books this is my ninth historical fiction and so i have

01:18:34.240 a page for all my books about a lot of the history that we talked about here and maybe even more

01:18:39.320 that behind the book.

01:18:41.580 So like the things that I don't mention in my novel,

01:18:43.380 but to help you understand the background

01:18:45.160 of these people and the times,

01:18:47.780 there will be a whole section for that.

01:18:49.660 So those are always a lot of fun.

01:18:51.380 And then for book clubs,

01:18:53.160 I have a whole section for book clubs.

01:18:55.380 I have reading guides, discussions.

01:18:58.400 I'm always happy to try to schedule a visit

01:19:00.560 with your book club, usually by Zoom,

01:19:03.000 if it works out for our schedule.

01:19:04.660 So I urge you, if you choose this book or any book,

01:19:07.240 please go to my website on my section for book clubs and we can maybe find a

01:19:11.600 way for me to dip in.

01:19:13.580 We're also doing some giveaways for those people who choose the book for the

01:19:17.300 book clubs.

01:19:19.360 It's available on bookshop.org and all your favorite indies and the usual

01:19:23.880 retailer places.

01:19:26.160 Yeah.

01:19:26.720 There's a lot of stuff on my website.

01:19:28.540 There's a lot of good stuff.

01:19:30.120 And like cocktail guy,

01:19:31.340 there's a cocktail guide for all my books.

01:19:33.860 No.

01:19:34.820 Yeah.

01:19:35.220 Yeah, and it has mocktails as well.

01:19:38.660 So it's like old, like actual cocktails of the times

01:19:41.980 and modern versions and then a mocktail version.

01:19:45.460 We've got that up there.

01:19:46.600 So yeah, spend some time on my website.

01:19:48.860 A lot of stuff to do.

01:19:50.600 I love, I love the, I feel this book.

01:19:53.580 I'm sure you've got some good cocktail ideas 0.99

01:19:55.500 for these two women. 0.58

01:19:56.780 Well, the Queen, I mean, my favorite,

01:19:58.540 the one I want to try, I've not been able to try it.

01:20:00.800 It's like famously the Queen Mother.

01:20:02.400 She loved a good martini.

01:20:03.380 i like a good martini too because her uh drink of choice like elizabeth the second's was a

01:20:09.480 dubonet and gin i've never been able to find um dubonet it's some kind of fortified wine and i

01:20:15.740 cannot find it so i am to taste and then there's a cocktail called the wallace blue that was that

01:20:23.600 was uh named you know made for wallace during her lifetime that uh that looks fun too so yeah

01:20:30.680 all this stuff will be up there. That's fantastic. Thank you so much for talking about this with me.

01:20:36.000 I think you're, I love all of your books. I'm excited to have gotten to talk to you. And I

01:20:41.340 think this one, I think is going to, I think it's going to hit. I think the timing is so good for

01:20:46.000 this book to be out there in the world. I think it'll be really interesting to see the responses

01:20:49.700 to this one. We are always fascinated by the Royals. We, even in America, maybe especially

01:20:55.720 in America and Canada, because, you know, they're not actually here. We're not actually paying for

01:21:00.380 them but but it's like you know they're celebrities and everyone's always fascinated by celebrities

01:21:07.100 wives lives it's like it's like a soap opera and it's just like when when one character ages it's

01:21:12.980 like guess what now there's a kid and now like it's just an ending it just goes on and on and

01:21:19.280 on from shakespeare to melanie benjamin there you go there you go there you go put that on your book

01:21:24.560 thank you so much for the conversation everybody go go read this book the winds are fair it's so

01:21:29.340 good and then book melanie for your book club well yes please i thank you and so much i enjoy

01:21:34.440 your podcast a lot i've heard a lot thank you so much

01:21:38.060 so melanie's book the windsor affair is available everywhere where you get books and what's

01:21:48.680 interesting is she and i spoke a lot about compare and contrast the these british royal wives from

01:21:55.580 a century ago with what's happening in modern times if you want to hear more of a discussion 0.63

01:22:00.000 about the actual oldie timey british royal family what was happening with wallace and with elizabeth

01:22:05.260 boselyan our friends amanda matta and meredith constant have a podcast called off with their

01:22:10.720 headlines they also interviewed melanie benjamin and it's funny because their podcast is usually

01:22:15.300 about today's modern royal family and they wound up talking about the history with melanie

01:22:19.760 whereas my podcast is about the olden times and melanie and i wound up talking a lot about

01:22:24.680 today's 21st century royal wives anyway so you can it's a complementary pairing of podcasts

01:22:31.120 beautiful pairing uh so if you go to just listen to off with our headlines wherever you get your

01:22:36.380 podcasts from speaking of that i've been a guest on a few of my other friends podcasts i want to

01:22:41.320 let you know about so i was on recently the podcast ticklish business which is hosted by

01:22:47.740 our friends kristen lopez and emily edwards and i was talking about the 1940 film version of pride

01:22:52.800 and Prejudice, which is a really fun conversation. It's not a version of Pride and Prejudice that

01:22:57.640 people, that comes up when people talk about it. Although a few weeks ago when I had June

01:23:01.760 Herr on this podcast, it was her first exposure to Pride and Prejudice. And so it was interesting

01:23:07.160 to visit this film. You can hear me talking about it with them on the podcast Ticklish

01:23:11.140 Business. And I was also a guest on my friend Jerry's podcast, The Presidencies of the United

01:23:16.820 States. So this is a podcast where what Jerry does is he goes through in great detail, the various

01:23:23.320 different presidents of the United States and what was it like before they were president, when they

01:23:26.940 were president. And this is where I come in and what was their first lady like. So I'm talking

01:23:31.600 about James Monroe's first lady, whose name was Elizabeth. And it was an interesting, it was a

01:23:37.140 fun time. I had a really fun time doing this episode. Elizabeth Monroe, interesting lady,

01:23:41.920 their daughters also interesting and she just the time period of this this is around the american

01:23:47.140 revolution era so you hear mention of a bunch of people that came up in our regency era episodes

01:23:51.760 and the french revolution series episode like lafayette makes an appearance um lots of people

01:23:57.240 who who we've talked about but from an american point of view anyway so that's called the

01:24:01.340 presidencies of the united states podcast you can hear me talking on there as well and if you just

01:24:05.640 can't get enough of me talking i also have a patreon and if you become a paid member of the

01:24:11.440 patreon i do a bonus episode about every month or so where my friends allison epstein lana what

01:24:18.400 johnson and i talk about a movie the one of us likes it's a historical costume drama or recently

01:24:23.560 about a book that one of us likes it's an oldie time book uh allison's great favorite book is

01:24:31.260 dracula by bram stoker and there's a new episode where the three of us discuss dracula by bram

01:24:35.660 stoker and it's a really fun time so you can listen to that if you join my patreon at patreon.com

01:24:40.840 slash Anne Foster writer. And I wrote a book. It's called Rebel of the Regency. It's available

01:24:48.680 to buy wherever you get your books from. It's just yet another story about the men of the British 0.97

01:24:53.880 royal family being terrible to their wives. It's a story that seems to keep repeating throughout

01:24:58.880 all of history. And I'll just say one more thing, which is that I have been doing, or I had been

01:25:04.100 doing a fundraiser to raise money for the Trevor Project, which is an American organization that

01:25:10.200 It provides 24-hour, seven days a week support to LGBTQIA youths who are in crisis.

01:25:18.300 And it's such a great organization to support.

01:25:20.440 And if you are in crisis, you should reach out to them.

01:25:22.680 Check out their website and all that stuff.

01:25:24.720 If you want to support a fundraiser, it was going to end at the end of May, but it's going

01:25:30.660 for one more week.

01:25:31.300 So until June 6th, you can go to vulgarhistory.com slash Trevor, vulgarhistory.com slash Trevor.

01:25:38.680 and you can check out this beautiful t-shirt

01:25:41.360 designed by our friend Yann-Yupiter

01:25:42.800 which shows queer people from the Regency era

01:25:45.980 we talked about last series on the show

01:25:47.780 so it's people like the Chevalier d'Anne is there

01:25:50.080 Georgina Duchess of Devonshire is there

01:25:52.860 the ladies of Hlengochlin and Lister

01:25:55.120 the ladies of Hlengochlin's cat

01:25:57.600 who's called Sappho

01:25:58.800 it's a beautiful like rainbow colored print

01:26:00.960 on this beautiful ringer t-shirt you can get

01:26:03.680 anyway when you get one of these t-shirts

01:26:05.460 from our fundraiser

01:26:06.380 all the profits go towards

01:26:08.380 the trevor project and you can also make a donation there to the trevor project so again

01:26:12.740 you can get that i think it'll look really cute if you're doing stuff for pride month in june

01:26:17.060 the fundraiser is is happening until june 6th so just go to vulgarhistory.com 0.99

01:26:22.920 slash trevor and until next time my friends keep your pants on and your tits out 0.98

01:26:29.100 vulgar history is researched scripted and hosted by ann foster 1.00

01:26:35.380 Editor is Christina Lumagi. Theme music is by The Severn Duo. Regency era artwork by Karen Moynihan.

01:26:42.180 Social media videos by Magdalena Denson. Transcripts of this podcast are available

01:26:46.520 at vulgarhistory.com by Aveline Malek. You can get early ad-free episodes of Vulgar History by

01:26:52.100 becoming a paid member of our Patreon at patreon.com slash annfosterwriter. Vulgar History

01:26:57.500 merchandise is available at vulgarhistory.com slash store for Americans and at vulgarhistory.redbubble.com

01:27:04.160 for everyone else. Follow us on social media at vulgarhistorypod. Get in touch with me at

01:27:09.080 vulgarhistorypod at gmail.com. Legendary stories, awe-inspiring sound, and endless

01:27:18.620 adventure. Welcome to the realms of peril and glory. Explore the mechanically magical vistas

01:27:28.800 of Vale, the paranormal mysteries of Liminal London, and the cyberpunk chaos of Cyborg.

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01:28:02.060 Go to RealmsPod.com or search Realms of Peril and Glory wherever you listen to podcasts.

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01:29:22.280 You've watched them from the outside your whole life.

01:29:25.140 On TV, on stage, on the cover.

01:29:28.060 The success that always looks like it happened to someone on a different planet.

01:29:32.440 But what if it didn't?

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01:29:41.300 The distance between you and them, it's a lot shorter than anyone's letting on.

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Vulgar History - June 03, 2026

Wallis Simpson vs Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon

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