00:00:30.000Hi, everyone. Before we get into today's episode, I just wanted to acknowledge that I know there's a lot of listeners in the United States, and I know that there's a lot of horrifying things happening in the United States right now.
00:00:41.720And I just wanted to say that so everybody knows right now in the United States, the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, known as ICE, has been overseeing a mass deportation campaign affecting hundreds of thousands of people through detentions, confinements, and expulsions.
00:00:55.500Their stated goal is to arrest 3,000 people per day.
00:00:58.500To attain this number, people are being taken from public places like churches, schools, and hospitals.
00:01:03.680The people being targeted are predominantly from a Hispanic background.
00:01:07.080Families are being separated, and people are living in fear.
00:01:10.040This is a horrific campaign affecting people all across America.
00:01:13.300I want to highlight some organizations working to help those being affected.
00:01:16.860Today, I want to highlight El Otrolado.
00:01:19.740El Otrolado, which means to the other side, provides holistic legal and humanitarian support to refugees, deportees, and other migrants in the U.S. and Tijuana through a multidisciplinary, client-centered, harm-reduction-based practice.
00:01:33.000This includes helping migrants with legal aid.
00:01:35.120They also have a water drop program where volunteers go deep into the desert to leave care packages for migrants that might pass through.
00:01:40.940You can donate to support their work at alotrolado.org. That's A-L-O-T-R-O-L-A-D-O dot org.
00:02:48.000Tell everybody about your fascination with ancient Rome and how it started.
00:02:52.720It really started probably, I'd say like mid-20s for me.
00:02:58.760I realized just how much I liked to know.
00:03:03.160And so I was like, well, what can I know? What kind of information is out there? What can I learn? And I started finding a lot of information on ancient Rome, because as you said, everyone is always, let's be like Rome.
00:03:18.520So, you know, I decided, let me start digging into ancient Rome.
00:03:23.120And there's just so much information out there because they wrote everything in Latin and we can translate Latin a lot easier than we can other ancient languages.
00:03:32.820And they kept details of everything, whether true or not, I can't say.
00:03:38.360We'll get into that. We'll get into that.
00:03:39.980But they kept details of everything, like just detailed details of everything, like names and who begot who and when they were born and when they died.
00:03:49.420And so it was just so easily accessible to me. And I just I just dove into it.
00:03:56.480And it was just seeing the parallels of that society compared to our society today, even some of the building structures, a lot of the government buildings, they have the pillars to them.
00:04:08.680Well, if you look at the ancient Roman buildings, they had the pillars to them, the Senate and whatnot.
00:04:18.020Obviously, I don't know if I have any ancient Roman ancestors.
00:04:23.120It's very possible. It's possible most of us do.
00:04:26.200Well, they spread like we don't need to get into the geography of it all.
00:04:29.200I feel like most of us do because like at its peak, the ancient Roman Empire was like all of Western Europe,
00:04:34.960like getting into eastern europe like getting into northern africa it's like everyone listening to
00:04:40.360this has one ancestor from one of those places at least yes probably right and like the romans
00:04:45.300were there it's just it's crazy how far they expanded and that expansion actually was the
00:04:53.320beginning of their downfall but that's a whole nother conversation but yeah i just i really i
00:04:59.120enjoy what i read um a lot of it was infuriating um and we will get into some of the reasons of
00:05:04.180why it was infuriating but a lot of it was just really very interesting on how they how they came
00:05:10.340up with some of the ideas that they did and and how they enforced them how they didn't enforce
00:05:16.480some others because it was more of a benefit to them to not enforce them in certain situations so
00:05:21.760it just all the way around it was interesting to me but I had always heard a phrase you know
00:05:27.200growing up that if you don't know where you came from then how can you make anything better now
00:05:33.660You have to understand, you have to learn from the past, or you continue to make those same mistakes. And so that was another thing that I really wanted to see is, you know, what types of things happened back then? What contributed to downfalls of different societies? What contributed to their expansion? And what are we doing the same today? What are we doing different today?
00:05:56.000And Rome really should be a cautionary tale for everyone.
00:06:01.120It's not because everyone just wants to focus on Julius Caesar and all his conquests.
00:06:06.380No one wants to focus on where he screwed up, where Rome in general screwed up.
00:06:44.740No, this is like I saw somebody posting somewhere on social media.0.97
00:06:47.860They were like, was the fall of Rome this dumb?0.93
00:06:51.260And I was at every historian who saw that was like, yes.0.98
00:06:54.500Yes. Like, like, I think a lot because so many like politicians and military leaders and whatever
00:07:01.080have been like, oh, yeah, ancient Rome, that's the greatest thing. It's like people focused on
00:07:04.880just like you said, like the conquest and stuff. It's like, but what was actually happening? Like
00:07:08.600they wrote all these records, but it's like, that's what you want. It's like you look at the
00:07:12.060newspaper today. It's like, well, that's what you want people to think happened. But like what
00:07:15.320actually was happening and what's happening was just like a lot of messy people making it up as
00:07:20.880they went along making bad decisions like they were not these perfect gods that's it seems like
00:07:27.780a lot of people are like let's just be like Rome again it's like no man no no that didn't work out
00:07:33.140for them why do you think it's gonna work out for us exactly so um yeah once I started getting my
00:07:38.920fill of that is when I um just been really kind of what probably pushed me towards it is when I
00:07:44.980got to the point in time of Cleopatra's entrance into Roman history. And I was like, okay, but
00:07:53.620who is she? So when I started digging into that, I'm like, okay, she's a Ptolemy though. She's not0.83
00:08:00.700really Egyptian. And you and I have talked about this too. Yeah. Listeners, if you want to hear1.00
00:08:05.100me and Gina talk about Cleopatra for another three hours, like just scroll back through your
00:08:08.540app and you'll find that episode. So I was like, okay, but I want to know what the real ancient
00:08:13.780Egyptians were like. And that's what really made me dive into that. And I have to say that I've
00:08:18.540pretty much put everything else on the back burner and just really just absorbed as much as I could
00:08:23.620about ancient Egypt. I looked a little bit into ancient Greece because I know Romans really
00:08:28.500valued the ancient Greeks, learned how to read their language, even try to fashion some of their
00:08:36.460society around what they did so I learned a little bit about that but beyond the Zeus and
00:08:43.980Hercules and all of that it just didn't interest me I like the mythology of Greece much better than
00:08:48.440the actuality of Greece I like the actuality of Rome I couldn't really tell you too much about
00:08:53.260the mythology because that didn't interest me as much when it comes to Egypt it all interests me
00:08:59.500I want to know about all of it so this is where like you're on here today so you're just kind of
00:09:05.320brushing off that like your former obsession about ancient Rome. But I'm so excited to talk
00:09:13.080about all this with you because I know a bit about ancient Rome just from like some episodes
00:09:18.180I've done on the podcast. Like when we were talking about Cleopatra, you know, I had to
00:09:21.120learn more about Julius Caesar and stuff. But yeah, just like the society itself and especially
00:09:25.700the role of women from what, and I know you did your research and I did my research. And like at
00:09:30.160the end of this, like I'll put all the names of all the sources we looked at, but I would say
00:09:34.820starting in maybe like the 1970s is like when people started looking more at like the role of
00:09:40.540women and what were they actually like in ancient roman up until then from you know the year whatever
00:09:46.120zero before that up until the 1970s it was like here's these great men and here's what they did0.99
00:09:51.480and the women were bitches who were scheming or just like like completely insignificant nope0.99
00:09:58.440just like overly sexualized monsters that's what women were but let's look at the men1.00
00:10:03.060But I would say like after like there's so much like I see this in every era I look at in the 1970s, feminist scholars started getting into universities and doing research on women.0.84
00:10:13.080And since then, and then I think especially like starting in the early 2000s, just people are really trying to put women back into this story because you can't understand a civilization if you're only looking at half of the people who lived in it.
00:10:25.380you're absolutely right you really can't look at a civilization and not look at the people that0.76
00:10:30.900actually i don't know the ones that actually kept the civilization going because last time i checked
00:10:36.320men can't produce babies so yeah you got to look at at the whole of a civilization to really truly
00:10:42.820understand it and even though in every society for the most part they've always tried to to0.79
00:10:49.300completely downplay the woman's role in it but without women those men wouldn't be out there
00:10:54.580conquering anything because number one, they gave birth to them. Number two, they kept them alive
00:10:58.660because the dads weren't around to raise them because that's just not how society has been for
00:11:01.960years. Men don't raise the kids. Number three, most of them, if you could go back in time and
00:11:08.540ask them who was the person that you would probably go to first if you had some sort of
00:11:12.960major issue or decision you had to make, they would probably say my mother. Women played such1.00
00:11:19.520a huge role in all of history yet they're the the main character that is always being erased and
00:11:27.780it's just been very refreshing that that has been starting to get reversed here recently because
00:11:33.000the information is there like you said the information is there because they everyone
00:11:37.900kept documentation i mean it's even when they had to chisel it in stone it's there the documentation
00:11:44.540is there just take the time to study it take the time to read it and i'm really glad that that's
00:11:48.060changing now because that just gives a so much better understanding of all these different
00:11:52.640civilizations. I think it's also such a good example of something that I did my undergraduate
00:11:58.500degree in history and so I was this little like 21 year old going to this class about like the
00:12:04.040history of history and it blew my mind then and so I keep saying it on the podcast so people know
00:12:09.460where it's just like history was written by people with an agenda like there's no objective
00:12:14.400history every single fact that you've read like somebody wrote that down like in ancient rome
00:12:19.720somebody wrote down in latin what they saw happen and then somebody in like victorian england
00:12:24.240translated that but they chose what word you know like do they it's talking about like
00:12:28.620the emperor's wife and like the word you know it's a specific latin word that can't really
00:12:33.780be translated but one person chooses that to say she was nagging but then another another translator
00:12:39.040could be like she was unreasonable you know it's just kind of like what word are we going to use
00:12:44.240And that just sets people up to think about people in a certain way.
00:12:48.320And I mean, like, we won't get into this today, maybe another episode, the Bible, just like
00:13:07.260So already to look at this Roman history, it's like the biases of the person writing
00:13:11.520it down the biases of the person translating it and then you're looking at it and you're like oh
00:13:16.760wow i guess this woman was like a nagging scold but then you go back to the latin and you're like
00:13:20.840oh no this just says that she like had a loud voice or whatever like yeah and it's funny you
00:13:27.220say that about the voice because there's actually something that i found that i found really
00:13:31.220interesting that we can get into when we start talking about the expectations of the women of
00:13:35.780ancient Rome but it's it goes along with tone of voice and really how it would be interpreted by
00:13:44.020the person that was writing down the the account of it and so it's just it's all fascinating so
00:13:50.020we can start wherever you want to start because there's a lot to put in there there's a lot to
00:13:54.480get in here and that's why I was like I told you before I'm like part one of this conversation is
00:13:58.760going to be like let's just talk about Rome baby and then part two is going to be like the specific
00:14:03.280biography we're going to look at. But I think that'll help when we get to the biography because
00:14:06.960we'll kind of know the context of what was happening. So I mean, what you were just saying
00:14:11.520about like women and voices and stuff. And I find this really interesting too. So like recently I've
00:14:16.460been doing, it reminds me of the research I've been doing with the French Revolution, where at
00:14:20.580that time it was like, here's the expectation for women. And it's really similar to Rome. It's like
00:14:24.080they should be like quiet and demure and like domestic and motherly. And so they write that
00:14:28.100down, right? Being like, this is what women should be like. But then you read it with the French1.00
00:14:31.280revolution and you're like women were taking to the streets with knives riots like it's like here's
00:14:38.300the expectation but it's like but here's the reality so like do you look at what people say
00:14:42.620women should be like or do you look at like what the women are actually doing and i have a sense
00:14:47.240that rome was similar in a way where it's kind of like oh this is the expectation for women but like
00:14:51.420behind the scenes here's what they're actually doing yeah and it was so ingrained in everyone
00:14:57.960within the society of what the expectations were that I think that unfortunately there was probably
00:15:05.080a number of women that really wanted to go against it but really didn't see how they could
00:15:11.680you know because if you're told something from birth you are most likely going to believe that
00:15:21.700that's just how it's supposed to be there's there's no way around it there's no getting out of it
00:15:27.140and they made very sure that that is what was taught boys and girls but mostly girls that was
00:15:35.800taught from day one where it's just this just hammered into their head that this is what you
00:15:40.140should be this is what you should do this is what you cannot do and so you only out of 500 women
00:15:46.220you'd have maybe two that was like screw this i'm doing something else you know so they could
00:15:53.160they probably looked at it as yes we're always going to have an anomaly here we're always going
00:15:56.820have one that's going to buck the system but out of 500 if it's only two we can control two a lot
00:16:03.280better than we can 500 so you know and that's just kind of the way society as a whole is still today
00:16:10.240where you know if you hold someone down long enough they start to believe it but you are
00:16:16.260going to have those rogue agents that are going to come out and be like no and that's really what
00:16:19.960happened um well you know it happened a lot in ancient world but it's what happened with with
00:16:24.360the french revolution where you know not every woman in rome or france was out there doing that
00:16:29.120but you had enough of them where you know they made enough noise and so i think there was always
00:16:36.140the goal of the powers that be to limit the number of people that made noise because you get enough
00:16:41.720women out there screaming then there's going to be others that would be like oh wait maybe i could0.75
00:16:45.920be doing that and they're going to get out there screaming and just a fact a wife is women out1.00
00:16:51.300number of men so you get enough of us out there the men don't stand a chance you know they're
00:16:57.440bigger and stronger but there's more of us well that's where i feel like the american revolution
00:17:02.280or the french revolution places where they're like we're looking to rome we want to be like0.69
00:17:06.200rome it's like okay and rome was a place where it was like women should be seen and not heard
00:17:09.980and they should be limited to the domestic sphere so it's like they were enforcing that
00:17:13.840part of roman culture yeah as well in these kind of societies i know i read that um
00:17:20.480The highborn women, the ladies that, you know, they were the wives and daughters of the senators and legates and all of that, they all, they studied singing to ensure that they had well-modulated tones when speaking.
00:17:40.540and they studied dancing to make sure that they held the poise and the grace that society said
00:17:48.560these highborn women were supposed to have. That is why they studied these, not because they were0.99
00:17:53.360interesting arts. They studied them because that was going to help them be the type of woman that1.00
00:18:00.940these old men wanted them to be. Because, I mean, fact of the matter is, is up until probably the0.93
00:18:06.260early 1900s, you always had a huge age gap between the man and the woman. The guy would be 40, the0.50
00:18:10.980woman would be 15. So these older men, they had the idea of what sort of basically subservient
00:18:19.540type of woman that they wanted. And so they're like, well, these are the things we feel they0.54
00:18:23.560need to do in order to ensure that we're going to have the wife that we want. Now, it doesn't
00:18:30.020really matter what I do. I'm going to be the hypocrite and I'm going to go out, I'm going to0.99
00:18:33.420visit the brothels and I'm going to have my side piece and I'm going to be sleeping with married1.00
00:18:38.600women, unmarried women. I don't really care because I'm a dude and I can do what I want.0.98
00:18:42.160But these women had to go through intensive training, basically, where they had to learn1.00
00:18:47.220to sing, to speak properly and learn to dance, to sit properly. They had to learn how to take1.00
00:18:52.100care of the kids, how to run the household. They basically managed the finances of the house. The
00:18:57.040men didn't do that. The men basically generated the income and were hardly there because they
00:19:01.360were always out doing whatever they were doing, sitting in Senate, arguing with each other,
00:19:04.720whatever. The women really were the brains behind the society. They were the reason why it kept0.99
00:19:11.120going because they maintained everything. The men just sat there and made their laws and their rules
00:19:17.240and yelled and screamed and went to war. And the women kept the city going. I mean, you can break0.98
00:19:24.540it down to whatever level you want, but the overall women kept the city going.
00:19:29.640in terms of what you're saying like with the high born ladies i just want to clarify for everybody
00:19:34.360and for myself because you're teaching me that's what this episode is about0.99
00:19:37.600but from what i understand like the society was like well you mentioned it's like girls were
00:19:42.180raised this way boys were raised this way it was a very gendered society um it was very much just
00:19:48.840like girls boys it's like there's no really discussion of like what's in the middle but um
00:19:54.160girls do this boys do this that's what society is like and so people are just raised with those
00:19:58.260expectations. But then it's also really strict hierarchies in terms of class, because you've got
00:20:03.080like the highborn, you've got like there's enslaved people, but there's also freed people.
00:20:08.020Can you explain the sort of classes? They were very, very class centric. I mean,
00:20:13.800everyone needed to know their place in society based off of that class. You had the lowest,
00:20:21.600which is probably the most utilized, but what was considered to be the lowest class, and that would1.00
00:20:26.820be um the the prostitutes um even though they were getting paid for what they were doing and0.97
00:20:34.320they had the highest of high men coming to see them on a regular basis they were still considered
00:20:38.740to be the lowest class in the entirety of roman history and is that because i mean probably lots0.52
00:20:44.440of reasons and part of that is like women should be this like perfect you know morally upstanding
00:20:49.760chaste whatever it's like and these women were not that by virtue of their profession so it's0.98
00:20:53.960Like if they rewarded them, they're making money at it.0.99
00:20:58.140They were not doing like what women, quote unquote, should be doing.1.00
00:21:00.500So the society is like, well, we can't show any value to that because then other women won't be the like chaste little drag wives.1.00
00:21:07.900And, you know, even the women that own the brothels, you know, they were one of the few women in Rome that were allowed to actually own a business.1.00
00:21:17.980They weren't allowed to enter into any kind of contracts, anything like that.1.00
00:21:20.800So if you really if you look at it from the woman's point of view, the ladies that own the brothels, man, those are the women to look up to because, I mean, they own small businesses.1.00
00:21:31.060You know, these women, they didn't answer to anyone.1.00
00:22:04.260They, to me, they ranked higher than that.1.00
00:22:07.160And it's weird because they were actually ranked lower than the slaves.
00:22:11.500And slaves were just considered to be property.
00:22:13.980You could do anything you wanted to them.
00:22:15.640You could really do anything you wanted to the brothel owners and the prostitutes because, you know, they because they were so low class, they weren't allowed to prosecute anyone.
00:22:22.720So if they were raped, if anything got stolen, if they got beaten, whatever, if you killed their brother or whatever, there wasn't anything they could do because they didn't rank high enough in the class system to be able to prosecute you for anything.
00:22:35.720so they really probably had the most independent lives yet the hardest lives because they really
00:22:44.080had to watch out for themselves in a way that the high society didn't you know you weren't allowed
00:22:49.140to really do anything to someone that was a higher class because you were you're gonna get0.99
00:22:53.580killed for doing that these poor these slaves and the broth owners and the prostitutes they weren't0.79
00:22:59.160they weren't really looked at as being human and so they really had to wash their back a lot because0.94
00:23:04.320anyone could do anything to them at any time and there was just never going to be any sort of
00:23:08.580penance for that and I want to clarify too and maybe you've come across this in your research
00:23:13.060as well but I was reading about how like the society was very gendered but it was also very
00:23:17.760like these are the classes so it's like if I am the brothel owner it's like I couldn't just like
00:23:23.400go around and pretend that's not who I am like there was specific like ways that everybody
00:23:28.580dressed and like if you were a sex worker this like you wear your toga like this and if you're
00:23:33.580a slave you wear your toga like so it's like just by looking at something on the street which now0.71
00:23:38.060you can't do that really like you could tell exactly the class by because you had to dress0.57
00:23:43.820this way yeah because like married women were um they wore a specific dress called stola1.00
00:23:49.440no one else could wear that only a married woman could wear that unmarried slave prostitute they0.99
00:23:57.020were not allowed to wear those if you were found wearing it and you shouldn't be it's death upon0.97
00:24:04.060you you know and it was they were really very unforgiving in a lot of things back then you know
00:24:10.980if you accidentally stepped a toe outside of the class that you were a part of you were most likely
00:24:17.360going to get killed so that's how deeply rooted they were in their class system and you had the0.99
00:24:23.760the plebeians who were kind of like you just you would consider them just to be like the middle0.98
00:24:28.300class today where they just went about their business they went about their lives they had0.90
00:24:33.700their jobs they had their farms they had whatever they had but they you know they weren't they weren't
00:24:39.280sitting on a chair with someone fanning them that that's not the life they live they were just the0.57
00:24:44.420plebeians were just the straight middle class and there were a lot more of them than there was
00:24:49.180anything else from what I've read. Just like in today's world, there's a lot more middle class
00:24:53.880than there is anything else, at least here in the United States. So, you know, that class wasn't0.85
00:25:00.960looked at as poorly as the other classes, but they still didn't hold the rank that that upper
00:25:09.580echelon did. And that class level would be pretty much compared to like your one percenters today.
00:25:16.560they would be considered your you're not necessarily millionaires well maybe some of
00:25:22.240the millionaires but they'd be your billionaire class of that higher they you know they were the
00:25:26.420senators um they were uh they were the ones in charge of of the military you know all that kind
00:25:33.480of stuff where they were the ones making the rules they were the ones handing out the punishments for
00:25:39.520the lower class they felt weren't following the rules properly that sort of thing um to be a
00:25:46.040senator up until it turned into um the the emperor being there um that was about as high as you were
00:25:54.560going to get that was anyone that was born into a higher ranking class that was the the goal for
00:26:03.380their son is to be able to get them to be a senator if you could reach that level your family0.98
00:26:09.720was on top and you were running shit you know that's that's just the way it was and your daughters0.97
00:26:16.320were always going to get the best marriages um your sons were most likely going to follow behind0.98
00:26:21.300you and be some high ranking something in the military or at least be um a higher level of a
00:26:28.740magistrate within the city if if they didn't become a senator so that was always the goal
00:26:33.760was, and we've seen it in every society. I mean, look at how they clawed at trying to be as high
00:26:40.480as possible within Henry the Eighth Court. You know, it was always the high society born were
00:26:47.180always clawing to get as high as they could, to get as much favor as they could, get as many titles
00:26:51.860as they could. It was the same way in ancient Rome. Get as many titles, get as high as you can,
00:26:56.920get as much money as you can, get as much recognition as you can. Not everybody was born
00:27:00.520into the Julii family. Not everyone was born into the Claudio family. So those were the two
00:27:04.960most revered families within ancient Rome. If you weren't born into those families, then you
00:27:10.280basically just did what you had to do to try to get as high as you could.
00:27:14.360And everybody was like, you know, there's similarities. The way that ancient Roman
00:27:18.480society was structured is similar to so many other civilizations with like the upper class
00:27:22.720and the lower class, the gender roles and everything. So I don't want to be too much
00:27:27.660like, Oh, it's exactly like now. But, um, I think one of the things that we have now,
00:27:32.380that's a big difference from then is that there is, for some people are able to, there's upward
00:27:36.980mobility. Yes. Like if somebody turns out that they were really good at sports, they're really
00:27:41.080good actor. They like make that they invent some app or whatever. It's like, you can be thrust from
00:27:47.660the middle class up into this 1%. But in ancient Rome, it's like a hundred percent, just like who
00:27:52.860were your parents? Who is your family? Maybe a marriage could elevate you a bit. If you marry
00:27:56.880someone a bit higher but there's no like you're not gonna have like your mark zuckerberg just
00:28:01.220like emerging out of the middle class to become a billionaire like it's just you're born into it
00:28:06.740or you're not and there's no other possibility yeah and it was like that pretty much every
00:28:12.280civilization um the the ones that lucked out it wasn't really usually a man that was able to get
00:28:19.200that upward mobility on marrying higher than his station it was usually the woman and a lot of times
00:28:24.880you know like right now we have our our upper middle class middle class and lower middle class0.97
00:28:30.460if you were a lower class plebeian you would try to push your daughter to get up into that
00:28:35.880middle class or that upper middle class because you weren't necessarily that low class but you
00:28:41.460weren't high either so you start raising your daughter you know even though you might have
00:28:45.840been considered a lower class you start raising your daughter oh you need to learn how to sing
00:28:49.840so you have a well modulated voice you need to learn how to dance so you have that poise
00:28:53.460you need to carry yourself a certain way you need to make sure that you're as close to being a
00:28:57.620vestal version as you possibly can because i'm going to try to marry you up higher obviously1.00
00:29:02.760they would want to try to go as high as a senator if they could but those were you that that would0.99
00:29:07.700probably be very few and far between if that happened unless unless you're like the upper
00:29:12.380upper middle class and you're like the most beautiful person anyone's ever seen that could
00:29:16.260happen yeah that could happen if you just happen to be really beautiful um but otherwise like it
00:29:21.640that leap would be so unlikely. Yep. But if you could get to lower middle class to just regular
00:29:27.240middle class, that was a huge bounce up for your family's station because families followed
00:29:35.700marriages. It doesn't happen as much now as it did back then, but it still happens a little bit
00:29:42.020now. But if your daughter married at a higher station than what your family was, typically
00:29:47.920your family was brought up to that level with her. And it's unfortunate because they always talk
00:29:53.020today, they talk about the oldest daughter. She's the one that's responsible for everything.
00:29:56.680I'm the only daughter. I'm the youngest child, but I'm the only daughter. So I felt I'm responsible
00:30:00.600for everything that happens in my family. I got to make sure everything's taken care of with my dad,
00:30:03.620so on and so forth. And so that daughter would be taught from birth that it's your responsibility
00:30:10.200to elevate this family. So you need to do X, Y, and Z to make sure you can marry higher than our1.00
00:30:16.460current station and bring the family with you and that I think that went through centuries I mean
00:30:22.720that wasn't just ancient Rome that that's happened through all the centuries where I mean even look0.98
00:30:27.780it was if you watch Downton Abbey you know you had women that were trying to marry into a higher
00:30:32.780station it's always been like that where unfortunately that burden was put on these
00:30:37.160women to try to elevate the family as a whole and so it wasn't as hard for those women that were
00:30:43.900born at that higher level because it was just expected you were born at this level you're going0.90
00:30:48.560to marry at that level and everything's going to be fine that's going to keep continuing it was0.98
00:30:53.080those people that were the regular plebeians that were always trying to elevate to that next level0.71
00:30:58.520that they possibly could and unfortunately that was always on the woman you mentioned the vestal
00:31:03.620virgins can you explain who they were uh they were very specifically chosen um and where were they
00:31:10.140which class does it matter where they're chosen from or where they from um you know from what i've
00:31:15.020found it didn't matter what your class was you just you had to be you had to be picked0.58
00:31:22.940they obviously wouldn't go for the child of a prostitute they probably wouldn't go that low
00:31:28.780in class but you could be a regular plebeian but you you were chosen at an extremely young age like
00:31:34.600probably like around two or three or whatever where this was going to be your life then once
00:31:38.920you got to a specific age, you would be sent off to live where they live. So you'd be sequestered
00:31:44.740from everyone else. You had to put in, I think it was like 30 years of service. You had to remain
00:31:51.840a virgin. You had to perform specific, basically cult-like things where, you know, you had, you
00:31:59.080did certain types of prayers, went to certain types of functions where it was considered to be
00:32:06.060favored by the gods to have the Vestal Virgins there. They were also responsible for keeping
00:32:10.800the fire going. See, now you got me thinking about things I haven't read about in a while,
00:32:16.880but there was a certain fire. It was a fire that was dedicated to a specific goddess. I cannot
00:32:21.800think of the goddess's name, but it was a responsibility to keep that fire going because
00:32:25.000it was said that if that fire ever went out, that was going to be the end of Rome because
00:32:29.140then they would have no more favor from the gods and it's just all hell would break loose.
00:32:33.380And the Vestal Virgins were like, they made this vow to do this for 30 years. They were sort of like taken, chosen when they were really young, but they were respected in a way that no other women were.
00:32:48.820They ranked in a way that no other women did. I think the only people that would have ever ranked higher than them would be the empress at the time, because once Augustus became them, they started calling different women empresses.
00:33:02.960They would have been the only ones that rank higher. They had such admiration from everyone in Rome. Actually, probably admiration from people outside of Rome as well, because they would be put on such high pedestals. They would have been talked about in such reverence across the entirety of the Roman Empire that everyone would have looked at them as basically being goddesses on earth.
00:33:24.160they they were supposedly some of the most beautiful women I don't know how you can decide0.74
00:33:29.920what a person's going to end up looking like you know when they're they're young but supposedly1.00
00:33:35.820they were just these beautiful godlike women that just could do no wrong but they their main1.00
00:33:42.400their main duty was keeping the fire burning and saying the proper prayers for the wealthiest people1.00
00:33:49.120within Rome. They obviously would have done prayers for others because, you know, in every
00:33:57.000society back then, people would pay to have like a priest or whomever do a prayer for them. Vessel
00:34:03.240virgins would have been the same way. I did read at one time, though, that most of them, once their0.97
00:34:07.40030 years was done, they would retire some of the richest people in Rome because they got to keep
00:34:14.760the money that they made for the different prayers that these people would want them to do
00:34:19.440and so they were given the option when they retired to marry or not to marry because that
00:34:27.460was one big thing in Rome is women had to marry you couldn't be unmarried that was just that was0.77
00:34:33.320extremely frowned upon that's the virgins when they retired they did not have to marry and from
00:34:37.800what I've read most of them didn't this is like of everything we talked about I'm just like I0.99
00:34:43.540choose that that's who I would want to deal with anyone they pay me to do a prayer yes sure retire
00:34:51.220age 33 they didn't have that they couldn't have any kids they were not allowed to because they
00:34:57.220were not allowed to be sexually active so you know say you start at 15 or whatever to be a
00:35:04.680vestal virgin you know you're still fairly young by the time you retire you go out there spend your0.62
00:35:11.280money girl do your thing you know go buy a farm whatever they did not have to conform to everything1.00
00:35:18.340else that the women in each room had to conform to and like you said that that or a brothel owner1.00
00:35:23.540would have been the two things those are the two options everything you've said i'm like those are
00:35:27.740the two i would gone for and now for a quick advertising break before you knew what a stock
00:35:33.380was you traded snacks cards turns that instinct to trade didn't disappear it just grew up with
00:36:28.400Kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered like bones in the dust.
00:36:33.380Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight.
00:36:41.300But in the shadow dark, the darkness always wins.
00:36:45.600This is old school adventuring at its most cruel.
00:36:49.080Your torch ticks down in real time and when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job.
00:36:55.000This is a brutal rules light nightmare with a story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make.
00:37:02.480This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s, and man, it is so good to be back.
00:37:07.320Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark every Thursday night at 8 p.m. Eastern on youtube.com slash the glass cannon with the podcast version dropping the next day.
00:37:18.000See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark.
00:37:25.260Ever get to the end of a podcast episode and think, now what?
00:37:29.220Well, instead of scrolling through a million choices, try Something You Should Know.
00:37:34.360I'm the host, Mike Carruthers, and every episode is packed with fascinating, useful, and surprising things you'll actually use in your life.
00:37:42.600From human behavior, relationships, health, science, and everyday mysteries.
00:37:48.160So while you're already in your podcast app, just search for Something You Should Know and listen to an episode right now.
00:38:19.860You know, the funny thing is, is you mentioned that about how many people live there.
00:38:23.060I don't think people really understand just how densely populated the city of Rome was.
00:38:29.220Yes, the empire itself was quite vast. So they had millions and millions of people that were part of ancient Rome. But when you look at the actual city of Rome, man, I just, I can't imagine living in that close proximity to others, because they were really just smushed in there.
00:38:48.900And if they didn't have the sewer systems that they did, that city would not have lasted long at all.
00:38:57.120I mean, because it was probably bad enough even with the sewer systems.
00:39:00.320So it's just there were so many people.
00:39:05.300And that's what a lot of governments have done over the years is there's so few of them that are in the government and so many that are not in the government.
00:39:13.660But like I said earlier, if you beat something into someone's head from day one, long enough and hard enough, they're going to believe that.
00:39:21.960And they had these millions of people living in the city that believed, I can't do this.
00:39:26.680I can't do this because these people that are in charge have told me I can't.
00:39:30.000Just like my brother mentioned to me once, I was flying down the freeway because we were late and I was going way faster than I should have.
00:39:37.880And he said, you know, what amazes me is how we are all so conditioned to stay within these lines.
00:39:45.800We don't veer outside of those lines when we're driving.
00:39:48.260It doesn't matter how fast we're going.
00:40:05.220We are taught to stay within the lines.
00:40:07.880In driving, in our lives, in how we speak, whatever.
00:40:12.900And all those people in ancient Rome, they were taught, stay within your lane.
00:40:17.720Stay in your lane or you're going to be punished.0.98
00:40:21.040I have no doubt that just like in today's world, there was a whole lot of bullshit going on that didn't get noticed by people.0.99
00:40:28.980Whole lot of crime, whatever, whatever.0.98
00:40:31.920But for the most part, the vast majority stayed within their lane.
00:40:35.500and that's how you keep control of a million people in one small little city well and part
00:40:40.500of it i'm going to guess um just because of the person we're going to talk to and in the next
00:40:45.000about in the next episode like once you start getting into like this is the emperor
00:40:49.160like oh he's a god like if you if you look up at your leaders and this imperial family as gods on
00:40:57.440earth basically like they're named gods after they die it's like well why would you ever do
00:41:02.660something like if your leaders are seen as so all powerful to you then like of course you would do
00:41:08.800it like that's i would imagine part of where because of the can you explain about just sort
00:41:13.820of like the spirituality like they were a very um superstitious like they took gods and stuff
00:41:20.260very literally yeah a lot i i want to say that started didn't start fading until other countries
00:41:29.580started fighting back against rome and and gaining their independence but you know if you look at
00:41:35.260egyptians if you look at greeks if you look at um um any of them you know the danish all of them
00:41:41.740they've they they really to me it'll always boil down to they had no other way of explaining
00:41:48.100natural occurrences so they turned them into gods you know thor god of thunder you can't explain
00:41:53.440thunder in, you know, 300 BC. So you're going to come up with a god that's going to explain
00:42:00.700why there's a bunch of rumbling above my head. So they really, they put so much emphasis on
00:42:09.120religion in ancient Rome. I mean, they had altars to gods and goddesses in their homes,
00:42:16.580just like they did in other ancient civilizations, they would make sacrifices to them.
00:42:24.040They would go and pay people like the Vestal Virgins and other priests within the city
00:42:28.300to have specific prayers for things.0.86
00:42:31.120You know, if for some reason a woman couldn't get pregnant, she would make sacrifices and0.94
00:42:35.100go pay to have specific priests pray over her womb, hopefully to help conceive.
00:42:41.360And they also felt like if there was ever any calamity in their life, it was because
00:42:46.360they didn't give proper homage to their gods and goddesses. And, you know, you would even find
00:42:52.060different things throughout the city, different statues that everyone could go to and just leave
00:42:58.100things at the altar and pray to it. We wouldn't have to specifically go to a priest. You know,
00:43:02.840there's more of the rich people that thought that if I go to this preach and they do this prayer
00:43:06.840for me, then I'm more likely going to get what it is I'm praying for than if I just went to the
00:43:10.960altar that's sitting in the middle of the square where anyone can go to so they really felt that
00:43:17.740their lives were really based on number one how well were they living their lives were they going
00:43:25.160were they abiding by the rules you know was the life being as pious as possible um and two were
00:43:31.200we giving proper sacrifices to these gods and goddesses because they they had a pantheon of
00:43:35.680gods and goddesses, just like everyone else did. There was not one monotheolistic God thought
00:43:41.600process with them, which is why they kind of butted heads a little bit with Herod, because0.70
00:43:47.640that was Christianity. They believed in the one God. And so there was that tension there with
00:43:54.140dealing with these other countries that were more to Christianity than they were the pantheon of
00:43:59.500gods but they truly believed that if they didn't if they didn't do what they were told these gods
00:44:05.800wanted them to do and that's another thing who decided what these gods did i mean it had to come
00:44:13.640at some point yeah who decided what the gods want and what exactly pleased them like someone and so
00:44:19.440that was that was some guy sitting somewhere because you know it wasn't a woman there was
00:44:23.760some guy somewhere that said, you know what, this is happening. I'm going to call it this God.
00:44:29.900This is what they're in charge of. And this is what they require from you. And so that's another
00:44:35.520thing. Religion, however you want to take that, is something that is beat into people's heads from
00:44:41.120day one. And this is what you have to abide by. And they really believed that if you didn't abide0.96
00:44:45.660by that, that it was going to be the downfall of Rome. And it was really like the religion was so
00:44:51.460caught up with the politics and with the city like it was all like there's no separation of
00:44:56.420church and state like it's all one thing and i i'm just assuming that's part of like how you keep
00:45:02.980everybody in line because everybody follows this religion and the people in church are the ones
00:45:07.520who being like this is the god we've offended here's how you can please them and everyone
00:45:10.760takes that literally right seriously because and that was that's one thing that people in
00:45:15.160charge have always tried to use to their benefit i'm not even going to speak on how it's happening
00:45:20.420now, but they always try to use religion to control the people they think are starting to get
00:45:24.660out of hand. So this senator makes a certain decree, I want this, this, and this to happen.
00:45:30.780And that goes along with what this God so-and-so wants us to do. And we know that we need to please
00:45:36.600the gods because if we don't, there's going to be destruction on Rome. So based on our religious
00:45:42.100belief, you need to go along with this new law, this new rule that I want to implement because
00:45:47.180that's what's going to please this god and everyone is so stuck on trying to be as religiously correct
00:45:54.840as they could they followed along with whatever the senators were telling them to do and religion
00:46:00.380has always been used as a weapon against the lower classes it just has i mean whether you want to say
00:46:08.380left right this that it doesn't matter religion has always been used to try to keep control of
00:46:13.140lower classes. And they were probably a bit more dogmatic about it than what we are now, because
00:46:19.040they really believed it in a different way than we do now, you know?
00:46:23.980Well, and just in terms of like, just a couple of examples I came across when I was doing my
00:46:27.540research, like, just in terms of what I would consider now like a superstition, they took so
00:46:32.260seriously. They're just like, okay, you know, should, whatever, should we go to war with this
00:46:36.220country or not? I don't know. Let's go see how many eggs the chicken lays over there. Count the
00:46:40.420eggs oh no one of them is brown that means this like these were the sorts of they're like oh my0.96
00:46:45.260god a bird like a bird just like shit on that statue and it covered up these letters these0.94
00:46:50.620letters are left what does what do those letters spell like this is how they're making like0.99
00:46:54.260enormous decisions just based on like how many how many birds just flew past like but then you
00:47:00.020also have okay the people that would interpret these signs yes you had very specific people
00:47:05.020that interpret it because you had you know octavian later on augustus he had his specific
00:47:11.260people that he would go to for interpretations for things just like people in other um civilization
00:47:16.040let's read what the bones say so yeah and see it's all about who's doing the interpreting
00:47:22.000what is their goal are they being paid by whomever to say oh this is what the gods want
00:47:29.420to the masses that have gathered or are they really giving the interpretation that they feel
00:47:34.820they're getting nine times out of ten they were getting paid to to say whatever it was the person
00:47:39.160that paid them wanted to say so or and or like if you're giving if like octavius like if augustus
00:47:45.080is the one who's like what does my horoscope say like you're not going to say something that's
00:47:48.400going to make him kill you exactly you're going to say what you know he wants you to say right so
00:47:53.300all of these omens and and signs and all that it was just natural occurrences of life but you were0.54
00:48:01.100so deeply rooted in religion, you felt that it had to have a meaning. And then you had these people
00:48:06.440that somehow worked their way up in the system to be the ones that will give you the interpretation
00:48:11.580and never getting paid to give you the interpretation, the powers that be wanted them
00:48:15.160to give. So it's just like, really, really, what is the truth? Do we really know what truth is?
00:48:23.200I mean, as human beings, do we really know what truth is? Because like you said, whoever was
00:48:29.100writing the history they were writing it based off of how they viewed it the people that were
00:48:33.880translating from one language to the other they were writing it the way they viewed it what is
00:48:38.220the actual truth you're so right because like if you look at like the one of these writers like
00:48:43.200tacitus or whatever he's like yeah and so my like example i made up but it's this sort of thing
00:48:48.960honestly it's like okay you know should we go to war let's see how many eggs does the hen lay and
00:48:53.760it's like and then the seer said because one egg was brown we should do this and you know tacitus
00:48:57.880writes that down but like why did the seer say that he didn't write down why the seer said that
00:49:01.900he didn't write down who's paying the seer or like the seer has like personal grudge against
00:49:06.520that country and wants to go to war against them like that we don't have we just know so we're like
00:49:10.900okay so i guess i just took this seriously where it's like no everyone has motivations no one's
00:49:15.260just saying something for no reason yep and you know it's funny because they had such a huge group
00:49:22.220of gods and goddesses. And the thing that always gets me, and it's sort of this way in Egypt as
00:49:29.720well, and Greece, but the vast majority of the supreme deities that were worshipped
00:49:37.160were women. I mean, you had a couple of guys that were, you know, high ranking in the pantheon of
00:49:47.100gods. But for the most part, the ones that were worshipped the most were women. The ones that
00:49:52.840they would go to when they were seeking advice for whatever was usually always a woman. Yet women1.00
00:49:59.860were the ones that were considered to be beneath the men. How does that work? How are you praying0.95
00:50:06.360to all these women, but yet you hold these women in such low regard? The women that are like right
00:50:11.980in front of you that can physically do things for you because you're not guaranteed these goddesses1.00
00:50:17.220are listening to your dumb ass. You're not guaranteed they're going to give you what1.00
00:50:20.540you're asking for. These women are right in front of you that could give you what you're asking for1.00
00:50:24.400if you ask nicely. And you're still saying you're beneath me. That is one thing about males that I1.00
00:50:31.100will never understand. Can we pivot to talk about something that I'm really excited to talk to you
00:50:38.380about that you brought to my attention which is female gladiators there's a lot of
00:50:46.400mixed feelings on did they exist didn't they exist but ultimately i think enough evidence
00:50:54.140has been found where they did exist the reason i think why people try to suppress their existence
00:51:01.980so much is because think about what we've been saying about women how they needed to be
00:51:06.780they needed to be girly girls they needed to be subservient they needed to be this that and the1.00
00:51:12.420other a female gladiator is gonna kick your ass she ain't listening to anything you have to say1.00
00:51:17.820and she's making money doing it so I think that's why they tried to suppress them so much0.99
00:51:22.460there weren't as many of them as regular gladiators obviously but in my research I found
00:51:28.660that male gladiators had existed for hundreds of years before the first women ever started doing
00:51:36.860it. I don't know what would have caused them to start doing it. I'm pretty sure there were plenty0.92
00:51:43.540of little girls that saw it and was like, ooh, I want to do that. I feel like I'm going to
00:51:48.480hypothesize based on a video I watched that you sent me. But I think if you've been, it's like,
00:51:54.820this is gladiators. And you know, like, I'm sure people are familiar with the concept, but you
00:51:58.180know like it's these two men fighting usually to the death in front of an audience of people who
00:52:02.520are just like super hype and excited but eventually it's just like this is getting stale this is like
00:52:07.180we need so that's what they start bringing animals into it so eventually i can see just like let's0.94
00:52:11.520bring women like it's like how can we get people like it's just the same old show like we need to0.94
00:52:16.960get some new energy so i feel like that's where the potentially female gliders came from where
00:52:21.360it's just like we need people are not as many people are coming to watch our fights like how
00:52:24.820can we get the audience back like and at first i think that would be shocking in this culture we've
00:52:29.380been talking about like people just be like what a female gladiator like that everyone's like
00:52:34.520driving in the lines they're just like men are like this women are like this and then just like1.00
00:52:38.260a female like it would be so explosive and so controversial like that would get people to go1.00
00:52:43.880to your coliseum yeah and it wouldn't be high-ranking women either it wouldn't be high1.00
00:52:49.260society women that would do it because they would feel something like that was beneath them number1.00
00:52:53.840one but just so outside of what you should actually be doing with your life you know at being a woman1.00
00:53:00.200of virtue and whatnot so it was likely um poor women maybe even slaves that that they had doing
00:53:06.720this there's not a lot of information on the women the specific women that that um were gladiate
00:53:13.020gladiatrix but um yeah it's it was one of those things that I've watched the video I sent you
00:53:21.180And I don't know if they existed before, but Trajan is the one to, Emperor Trajan was the one known to really implement the female gladiators.
00:53:31.840And if you know anything about Trajan, he was really considered to be the most, think outside of the box, emperors in the entirety of the Roman Empire.
00:53:42.500He's considered to be one of the best, too.
01:00:20.620Like, what have you come across in your reading just about how they viewed death?
01:00:25.660Well, you know, it's just like the Vikings.
01:00:27.980If you died in battle, you know, the Valkyrie would come and get you.
01:00:32.940They all glorified death, the life beyond.1.00
01:00:37.020You know, same with the Egyptians.1.00
01:00:38.120He goes with the field of reeds where you live happily ever after, you know, where you brought all your slaves with you to feed you grapes and everything while you spent eternity in glory.0.97
01:00:50.020And pretty much every religion has been like that.0.63
01:00:54.880You know, although we have a heaven and hell, they didn't really think about they they believed that there was an underworld that was not all that great to be in.0.91
01:01:03.820But still, they always automatically assumed because they always felt that they were right about everything.
01:01:10.560They always assumed they were going to what we would consider heaven.
01:01:14.220And so, you know, they when a person died, their funerals would if they were higher class, the funerals would be a big spectacle.
01:01:22.940They'd have their death mask made and they'd have a bust of themselves made and and it would be put in in the homes of their family.
01:01:31.840And their family would look at these with such reverence and they would make the sacrifices to the gods and goddesses to ensure that this family member that they felt was in heaven would continue to live out the rest of eternity in whatever posh world they thought that they were sitting in.
01:01:56.540and so they they never really viewed them as being gone you know in today's world we'll say
01:02:03.060oh i have an angel watching over me they kind of felt the same way that way they didn't um
01:02:08.300verbalize it as an angel but they would say that you know the the ancestors of of the family were
01:02:13.460looking after the rest of the family to ensure i was gonna say like people say that today like
01:02:17.180about like the ancestors you know yeah and that's the way they viewed it is just you you were
01:02:22.780physically gone but you weren't spiritually gone and so um you know with the gladiators they would
01:02:29.360look at it as they fine i died a heroic death i died an honorable death i'm i'm i'm going on to
01:02:36.800to where whatever vestal virgin died is going to be there feeding me grapes and
01:02:41.920fanning me with a big palm leaf kind of thing they always viewed that when they died they were
01:02:47.300going to go to this this grand place and so people just didn't they didn't fear death the way we do
01:02:55.260now um because we look at things a little bit more scientifically and it's like okay what actually
01:03:01.180happens to us where do we go is it just done or are we just sitting in total darkness the rest of
01:03:07.300eternity they didn't look at it that way they looked at it as you went on to this this grand
01:03:11.240place and your spirit popped in here and there to help the family out to keep the the family
01:03:16.520fortune going or whatever whatever it was they felt that that your spirit was doing so
01:03:21.740that's probably why well romans were debaucherous they just were i mean let's just let's just put
01:03:29.560that out there yeah so they they had no problem with watching bloody nasty things happening out
01:03:35.620on the floor of the arena but they also viewed it as that person dies in the arena man the way
01:03:42.400they're going to get glorified the way they're going to go on to this great life so i want him
01:03:47.500to die because i want him to have that afterlife yeah that's like a happy ending for the whole0.93
01:03:52.780audience but i wonder too like um there was so much i'm gonna say like casual death like especially
01:04:01.600just from what i've been reading about what we're going to talk in the next episode listeners
01:04:04.700during the reign of augustus but just kind of like that guy looked at me funny cut off his head right
01:04:10.260now like there's so much just like people were just being casually murdered and so if you're
01:04:15.560living in it and you know cities are being like ransacked like army like this is a society of
01:04:21.360people who seeing death in the coliseum is probably not the first time any of them saw somebody die
01:04:26.780like there's like plagues there's like everything like there's death all around them all the time
01:04:31.780so like to make like to me living in like canada the thought of going to a coliseum with a bunch
01:04:38.080of strangers and watching somebody murder somebody is like insane i can't even quantify it but it's
01:04:43.200like if you're living in a place where there's death constantly everywhere then like making
01:04:46.740death a spectacle where there is this kind of happy ending is a way to sort of control it or
01:04:51.040i don't know just all these traumatized people working through you know another thing that i've
01:04:55.460thought about a lot often and i don't know why um since there was such a death toll really throughout
01:05:04.180all of history, because, you know, you could die from an ear infection, you know, look at the
01:05:09.620fauna of France, you know, you die from anything back then. And so how often did it happen where
01:05:17.620a two or three year old, both parents got the plague or whatever, and now this two year old
01:05:24.420sitting in the street, and they get taken in by a completely different family. They're raised to
01:05:31.440believe that that's their family that's their family name how often did that happen in throughout
01:05:36.960history where someone from this family ends up in this family just like you know all the
01:05:42.080illegitimate children of of rulers they would get cast aside raised by someone else with
01:05:48.720completely different name where they're actually of royal blood but yet they were raised on the
01:05:53.940street by someone or whatever so how often did something like that happen where since there was
01:05:59.540just so much death around you know any kind of sickness could kill you any any kind of anything
01:06:03.960could kill you you could get some painted wheat and next thing you know you're dead you know the
01:06:09.960rats could have got in there or whatever all of a sudden you're part of a completely different
01:06:13.680family and that lineage keeps going so really it's like that's always kind of gotten me where
01:06:21.160technically we're probably all related in some way because who knows no yeah when you look at
01:06:27.320the the family tree right now it's like this is the mother and this is the father and this is a
01:06:30.740kid and it's like but was that the father yeah exactly was that the mother like and you couldn't
01:06:35.380tell back then because there was just there was a lot of death happening just either like you said
01:06:40.680someone didn't like the way they look so they slit your throat or you just died because you
01:06:45.180didn't have enough food or you died because you ate some rotten food just you never know what was
01:06:50.400going to happen back then and so you're right people would be accustomed to seeing death all
01:06:54.520around them at all times. But how did it really affect some of these kids and actual family
01:07:01.700dynamics of who ended up being in what family? You know, you just, it's almost impossible to say.
01:07:10.000Well, and that is going to lead us very beautifully into part two of our conversation,
01:07:14.820which will be in the next episode, listeners. But I think some of what I've been thinking about
01:07:19.760and reading is what effect does that have on you when you're growing up in a society where,
01:07:23.860you know if you don't understand thunder and lightning and you don't understand like why is
01:07:27.860the river flooded or whatever like why is this plague happening you're like well it must be the
01:07:32.080gods the gods must be displeased and how does that affect you when you're in the imperial family
01:07:37.840but then also if you want to have a measure of control if you don't want to think everything
01:07:41.500is just random we're living in olden days and anyone could you then you think like oh it must
01:07:45.680be a conspiracy somebody must be murdering all these people like that's where people start to
01:07:50.740kind of, and these are the historians, right? 200 years later are like, huh, the sequence of people
01:07:56.340all died. And it's like, yes, there was a plague. And yes, there was a bad wheat. And yes, but it's
01:08:00.860like, but what if there was a serial killer? Like, and those are the sources we're looking at,
01:08:05.300right? Where you're like, or was it just like a really shitty time to live? Anyway, we're going
01:08:10.780to be getting more into sources next time because we're going to be talking about Livia, who was
01:08:17.160technically the first empress of Rome. And we'll explain how and why that happened in the next
01:08:23.140episode. And Gina is going to be here along with me next time. So get ready.
01:08:33.160So as we said in the episode, stay tuned for a special episode coming out in two days on Friday,
01:08:40.240where Gina is back now that we've sort of laid the landscape of what life was like in ancient
01:08:45.280Rome, especially for women, we're going to get into the story of Livia, who I previously to doing
01:08:51.220the research that I did for this upcoming episode, I mostly just knew as the iconic villainess in the
01:08:56.7601976 BBC miniseries, I, Claudius, which I was very all about a few months ago. It's interesting to
01:09:04.480see what her real life story is actually like. So stay tuned for that special extra episode with
01:09:09.900Gina coming up on Friday. And I do also want to mention that I have written a book. It's coming
01:09:16.800out next year. It's called Rebel of the Regency, The Scandalous Saga of Carolina Brunswick,
01:09:21.320Britain's Uncrowned Queen, or potentially Britain's Queen Without a Crown. We keep going
01:09:26.160back and forth, but it's for sure called Rebel of the Regency. It is by me, Anne Foster. And you can
01:09:32.000pre-order it if you're in Canada and the US at your local independent bookstore. Just go in and
01:09:36.220be like, hey, I'd like to pre-order a copy of Rebel of the Regency by Ann Foster. You can also
01:09:40.640pre-order it by going to any of the major online retailers. I have a list of all of them at
01:09:45.540rebeloftheregency.com. That's rebeloftheregency.com. You can go there to click through to order a copy
01:09:52.860of this book. It's so important to get people to pre-order the book because that's how bookstores
01:09:57.480know that people are interested in it. That's how bookstores know to order more copies of it so that
01:10:01.520other people can buy it. So I know every author with every book is always like, no, pre-orders
01:10:05.780are important, but now I too am an author and I now understand why pre-orders are important.
01:10:11.040And if you're just excited about it in general, you can also add it on your to-be-read list on
01:10:15.180Goodreads or on Storygraph. That also is valuable and important and shows the enthusiasm for this
01:10:20.880book. And also if and when you pre-order it, you can sign up to get some free treats from me.
01:10:27.000For anyone who shares their receipt for having pre-ordered my book with me, then you can sign
01:10:33.340up to get a free one-year membership to my patreon a free one-year membership to my sub stack and
01:10:39.260also a beautifully designed carolina brunswick themed digital paper doll sheet that is incredibly
01:10:45.880cute so anyway the link to do that to submit your receipt is also at rebel of the regency.com
01:10:51.740and talking we're talking about ancient rome and so i have to bring up our brand partner common era
01:10:57.960Jewelry, which is a woman-owned small business based for the United States that uses 100%
01:11:04.720recycled gold and makes all their pieces made to order, which means there is no waste when