Vulgar History - October 06, 2025


Why do we still care about Marie Antoinette?

Topics
How Benjamin Franklin Tried (And Failed) To Conquer Canada Mary Shelley's mother, Mary Wollstonecraft (part one)

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11

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23

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Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
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00:00:30.000 Hello, and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast.
00:00:35.200 My name is Anne Foster, and this is one additional final episode, a bonus episode to our Marie
00:00:40.940 Antoinette season. I've been weaning myself off of just going hardcore on Marie Antoinette for
00:00:46.720 such a long time, and I just have so many thoughts and feelings. And I was so excited to find somebody
00:00:52.940 to share those thoughts and feelings with, maybe the only person in the world who is as invested
00:00:57.280 in Marie Antoinette as I am at the moment and that is author Melanie Burroughs so you've heard
00:01:02.140 me say her name before because her book Marie Antoinette Teen Queen to Guillotine has been one
00:01:07.240 of the major references that I've used for my research in this season as well as you might
00:01:12.480 know Melanie Burroughs from her social media where she goes by Madame Guillotine and she posts stuff
00:01:18.080 about art history from the French revolutionary era and about Marie Antoinette and about Versailles
00:01:22.840 and I follow her on the sub stack and on Instagram and other places and as I was working on the
00:01:27.700 season I kept she kept posting things like oh my gosh I didn't know about that portrait oh that
00:01:31.600 that's what that part of Versailles looks like and she just really was sort of a fairy godmother
00:01:35.740 to the whole season and I was so happy that she agreed to have a conversation with me just to
00:01:40.280 kind of talk all things Marie Antoinette French Revolution all of it and I do want to also just
00:01:46.140 reiterate that she's the author of the brand new Marie Antoinette biography Marie Antoinette
00:01:52.260 Teen Queen to Guillotine. I think you can tell by the title. It's a fun, readable biography,
00:01:58.700 extremely well-researched. It's extremely well-written, but it's not full of footnotes
00:02:02.920 and stuff. It's not an academic book. It's like Melanie describes in the interview. She wants it
00:02:07.040 to be a book that you read just by the pool on your holiday. It's such a good book. I'm such a
00:02:12.020 fan of hers. And so please enjoy this conversation with Melanie Burroughs, just to kind of wrap up
00:02:16.880 the whole Marie Antoinette season. So I'm just going to say welcome to Melanie Burroughs,
00:02:28.320 the author of Marie Antoinette, Teen Queen to Guillotine, also known on social media as Madame
00:02:34.220 Guillotine. Thank you for joining me for this conversation, Melanie. Hello. All right. Bonjour.
00:02:39.600 so yeah I'm like I'm in my Marie Antoinette era it feels like so many people are the V&A
00:02:48.140 exhibition is happening right now why do you think Marie Antoinette is especially of interest
00:02:56.400 right now the year 2025 I think because she's been coming up in um sort of cultural conversation
00:03:02.880 a lot the last sort of five six seven years um because of you know our um the cost of living
00:03:11.300 crisis all the general the wars the general social issues things like that and so people
00:03:18.000 have been using her kind of as a throwaway sort of expression for sort of the decadence of the
00:03:25.260 uber rich and the suffering of of all of the rest of us um and and so there's always been a lot of
00:03:31.520 pushback against that with people sort of talking about no no what about all the good things marie
00:03:35.380 antoinette did and um you know she was she didn't know she never said that or she didn't do that she
00:03:40.560 wasn't like that and so um and that's led to further conversations about actually marie
00:03:46.920 antoinette and so i feel like um the time has just become right for her the the actual her to be
00:03:54.640 discussed um so yeah so it's a good thing i really welcome it the series has probably had a lot to do
00:04:01.220 with it as well um but I really do feel it's because of uh sort of um you know increased
00:04:07.680 exposure which started off negative but actually I think it's turned into a good thing you know
00:04:12.500 it's just turned into a general a deeper interest yeah I've never studied Marie Antoinette before
00:04:20.040 I was always much more of like a Tudor era girly so this was my first exposure to to her and to the
00:04:27.180 revolution era and everything and now I've got very strong feelings when I see people making a
00:04:32.860 let them eat cake joke or something I'm just like you don't know no the thing is they all know they
00:04:40.200 all know that she didn't say it but they're just gonna do that anyway so you know yeah it's really
00:04:47.240 frustrating but like I said it's led to more conversation about her where those of us who
00:04:55.460 have always been championing her to an extent um have had opportunities to kind of go no she never
00:05:02.580 said that and actually she did all these really great things too and um and yeah it's it's been
00:05:09.180 it's been a roller coaster um I get so pissed off when I see like Melania Trump being compared to
00:05:15.940 her or it's just so gross um but yeah I feel like you know as she becomes better known and hopefully
00:05:25.280 the exhibition and my book and you know I think they're probably going to make another season of
00:05:31.220 the show and you know all of these things together are gonna mean that you know there's going to be
00:05:37.720 less incidences of her being compared to negative people of the present which yeah I mean during
00:05:47.200 her lifetime she was obviously being compared to negative people from her past so it just feels 0.96
00:05:52.360 and you know what it's all women and it just feels it's just part of the same shit different 1.00
00:05:59.080 century it's incredibly it's just so tiresome it's really grim I agree things um where I see 0.99
00:06:06.380 people comparing when there was that stupid that ridiculous um space flight where Katy Perry went 0.96
00:06:12.600 into the atmosphere and people like oh this is this is a Marie Antoinette moment Katy Perry going 0.98
00:06:17.640 to space it's like yeah what are you even talking about yeah when the balloon took off from Versailles
00:06:24.920 Marie Antoinette wasn't in it and I don't and you know Louis XVI Madame Elizabeth was super
00:06:31.880 interested to get all over that balloon before it ascended Marie Antoinette I don't think went near
00:06:37.540 it like she wasn't interested at all in anything like that you know Louis XVI if they could have
00:06:44.700 fit him into the space thing might gone up madame elizabeth definitely uh comte d'artois
00:06:52.120 definitely provence no too clever no way would he have gone in and marie entrain there absolutely
00:06:57.040 no way on earth would she have gone in that like anything she was not being launched into space
00:07:03.140 that's just not that would not be her vibe no i'm just picturing her you know cottage core like her
00:07:09.560 just hanging out with her lambs in her fields just you know drinking her milk like that's what
00:07:14.160 she's up to yeah yeah with like a kind of like a bedazzled rocket in her hair yeah yeah and a
00:07:21.900 celestial themed outfit you know that was her more her vibe but you know for someone I think 0.97
00:07:29.340 I always think of her as like being a bit of a dreamer but her feet were definitely on the ground
00:07:35.500 you know she was very she had a great awareness of who she was and what she was doing and she was
00:07:44.040 very interested in her world around her um so yeah I don't think she would have been too bothered
00:07:51.180 about you know yeah not her thing not her thing at all so yeah that was really annoying but that
00:07:59.440 again that's the sort of thing that you just the push back against it you know and the fact that
00:08:03.980 there are people who know a lot about Marie Antoinette who can anticipate how she would have
00:08:07.880 felt about things means that people are starting to kind of take more of an interest you know in
00:08:13.720 what she was really like um yeah I find her I mean she was not a perfect person
00:08:20.300 um by any means she could be incredibly self-righteous judgmental um just really 0.99
00:08:28.820 catty she could be a bitch thoughtless uh careless of her friends things like that 1.00
00:08:35.120 um but she was also generous affectionate she just desperate to be liked yeah and just 0.99
00:08:43.240 just generally overall delightful so you kind of yeah you can't help but kind of warm to her when
00:08:49.920 you're learning about her and I also love I mean for me I mean I'm also a massive swifty um but I
00:08:57.220 always feel like Marie Antoinette's life has got eras as well I literally just I literally just
00:09:03.740 posted on my Instagram um I did the eras poster but with Marie Antoinette that's so cool yeah I'm
00:09:11.160 sort of i was kicking myself earlier because um my book was actually supposed to come out a few
00:09:15.900 weeks ago and it wasn't supposed to come out this late and if i'd known i would have and obviously
00:09:21.700 it would have been like you know how could i do like the life of a french queen
00:09:26.920 and i should have color coded it a bit more and all of that stuff um but i didn't know so that
00:09:35.440 wouldn't that didn't happen um but yeah the person the woman who was executed was almost
00:09:42.440 nothing like the woman who was queen of Versailles they are like when you read when you study her
00:09:49.620 when you read her letters um when you you look at the things that happened and her reactions and
00:09:55.940 her responses to it it's like they are different people totally different people the Marie Antoinette
00:10:02.440 at Versailles if she'd met the Marie Antoinette of the conciergerie would have absolutely they
00:10:08.080 would just have absolutely nothing in common they were they were not the same person and I find that
00:10:14.620 fascinating and she is one of these people that I don't know it's like which one's the real one
00:10:22.020 and I would I actually think the Marie Antoinette end of her life was the actual real Marie Antoinette
00:10:28.200 that's okay and the marie antoine at the end of her life was her mother's daughter oh my god oh my
00:10:35.120 god the part yeah no there's i said this in my podcast when i got to that episode where it's at
00:10:41.100 a point where she's just like i'm gonna make an escape plan i'm gonna like i'm gonna connect back
00:10:46.660 to my hopswork relatives i'm gonna write letters to every king i was just like the maria theresa
00:10:52.280 genes are just emerging it's suddenly it's just like where was this your whole life my gosh like
00:10:57.220 yeah so much just had enough because she'd spent so long I think like treading this fine line
00:11:04.500 between Austria and France and the interests of both and both of them you know with a husband
00:11:11.800 who'd been taught that she was going to turn up and be a spy and a traitor right from the start
00:11:18.520 and her family reminding her constantly like you're an Austrian first you know this is the
00:11:23.700 most important thing and I think for a really long time she just wasn't that girl you know she
00:11:30.680 wasn't clever enough savvy enough to be able to deal with that with the diplomacy that it actually
00:11:38.260 needed but later on um I think she just had it it was like okay she knew what to do and you know
00:11:47.200 yes I suppose some of the stuff she did was kind of treacherous you know later in life but who can
00:11:54.160 blame her I mean seriously she spent so long trying to be accepted by friends and people
00:12:02.040 are hating her and gossiping about her and being mean to her at every turn so when she finally
00:12:06.420 was just like you know what I'm gonna do send military secrets to Austria like I will be that 1.00
00:12:11.320 spy you thought I was because fuck you like I don't blame her I don't blame her I don't blame 1.00
00:12:16.900 her at all I would have done it much sooner to be honest like screw these guys oh my god 1.00
00:12:22.500 but yeah she I think she was just constantly dealt a really bad hand like over and over and over and 0.96
00:12:32.080 over again you know and it was there were all just it was just a combination of events that
00:12:37.740 were nothing to do with her like she wasn't even supposed to marry Louis yeah it was yeah
00:12:42.560 of her elder sisters and it was it just it just cascaded from then on you know she never wanted
00:12:49.540 to leave Vienna I don't think it wasn't just wasn't you know she just wasn't interested in
00:12:54.920 any of that stuff so she did the best she could and you know I think she did better than a lot
00:13:01.720 of people would have done she did better than I probably would have done because all the stuff
00:13:05.900 that they were saying she was doing I probably would have done it I would have been out there
00:13:09.120 spending a fortune hanging out grapes lovers cats everywhere you know it would have been amazing
00:13:17.600 um and she wasn't even doing any of that so you know fair play to her you know but yeah there's
00:13:23.320 loads of and there's loads of misapprehensions about them that you know i challenge in the book
00:13:29.780 um but actually because i'm three quarters of the way through writing the follow-up book about
00:13:36.020 Madame Elizabeth and actually since writing Marie Antoinette and the research into Madame
00:13:43.240 Elizabeth's taken me into totally different directions and um I found a lot more you know
00:13:50.500 there's more kind of um there's different letters different journals a different perspective
00:13:56.180 of the the marriage of Louis and Marie Antoinette um you know it's kind of like really made me
00:14:02.680 re-evaluate quite a lot of things as well particularly about louis um which is why i'm
00:14:08.120 planning to write a book about him much later on because yeah i've had to read it's i'm really
00:14:13.660 had my i it's my lionel um this is lionel oh my god beautiful ginger oh here we go um so yeah he
00:14:28.680 um yeah he's just Louis was just so different how we see him um and that by therefore just kind of
00:14:38.620 makes you reevaluate Miranda and their whole relationship and I just I don't think it was
00:14:44.700 how it's been traditionally depicted so I'm really looking forward to writing about him and maybe
00:14:49.660 getting a bit well definitely getting a lot more into that like what actually was the dynamic there
00:14:56.380 because you know we're always told oh he really you know he really didn't like having sex and all
00:15:02.640 this but they had like four children once once he figured out what to do yeah he was into it he was
00:15:10.880 actually into it and it's like when you think about it that way and um yeah and I found a few
00:15:17.120 other things in letters that are like you know about him you know um him flirting with
00:15:24.740 um a woman close to them and she was asking her husband what should she do and it was like
00:15:30.920 louis what were you doing this is shocking information to me this is shocking because
00:15:37.580 yeah and yeah i mean obviously there were lots of stories about him flirting you know that he
00:15:42.940 was secretly in love with Madame de Polignac and even the father of her youngest child and things
00:15:48.500 like this and that was very much in the rumor mill at the time so it's like he was a bourbon
00:15:55.840 like what you know is there stuff about him that we're not considering are we really just
00:16:02.160 quietly accepting this idea of this faithful boring quiet husband who has no interest in
00:16:10.020 any other women when actually the guy was a bourbon and maybe he was just really discreet we
00:16:15.920 just don't know I don't think we should write off the possibility that Louis have mistresses
00:16:20.260 is what I'm saying that's so intriguing that's so intriguing I came into my research for this
00:16:28.460 again not having researched this time period at all before I just kind of had this image in my
00:16:33.040 head I don't know what it's even from of just like this you know sexy young couple where it's like no
00:16:37.960 they were nerds they were two nerds and then that made me that made me love them even more like her
00:16:44.160 affection for like mechanical furniture was I find really sweet yeah she was so into that and
00:16:53.560 he's like they're making locks for making locks that's where I was like with his like
00:16:59.060 on the roof of Versailles spying on everyone and you know up in his rooms and learning English and
00:17:07.200 just he was just um yeah louis was really interesting and yeah it was frustrating that
00:17:13.780 he gets written off when um actually i mean it's i always find it really interesting as well
00:17:20.040 the louis the 16th and louis the 15th um although there are several books about them in french
00:17:28.380 there's not that much in anglophone literature um and but we know them through the perspective
00:17:35.280 of their in louis 16th case his wife who's had multiple books and louis the 15th we see him
00:17:42.340 in our culture uh through the eyes of his mistresses because they get all the books but
00:17:48.760 he doesn't and i find that actually really interesting and it's uh totally different to
00:17:53.260 louis the 14th so it's like well what's going on there and it's just like so that's so french
00:17:58.280 that we only see these two actually quite significant french monarchs through the eyes
00:18:04.780 of the women that they shared their lives with which I find yeah it's really nice actually as a
00:18:11.360 as a female historian um to have that perspective um and I'm a little bit disappointed in myself
00:18:17.000 of wanting to know more about Louis himself and to want to write because it's like no that's not
00:18:21.760 what I do but um I know I don't know I think that would shed more light on the women in his life as
00:18:27.980 well so you know um yeah and definitely reading madame elizabeth's letters where she mentions
00:18:34.600 her brother um not always in a very complimentary way so she refers to his um he refused to give
00:18:44.560 her some money for something and she was like oh this is one of those little villainies that my
00:18:48.280 brother often practices which um do not reflect well upon him and it was like whoa elizabeth but
00:18:56.280 we're always told that you two were like this like yeah devoted and he would do anything for
00:19:01.400 her and he was so generous but actually what's going on here what is it so i'm yeah that's my
00:19:09.020 kind of thing at the moment it's like what the real louis the 16th like what who was he what's
00:19:15.560 going on because he's another person who his character just changes as well so it's like who
00:19:23.180 was the real louis anyway that was my thing i'm really interested in at the moment now that's so
00:19:29.340 i'm i relate to what you're saying just in the sense of like i start researching a person and
00:19:34.280 i'm like oh but what was the sister like oh and she had a lover and then suddenly i'm just like
00:19:38.840 researching this person five steps away and i'm like well this is the next five years of my life
00:19:42.940 i guess yeah because every story is just like oh but you know when when there hasn't been a lot of
00:19:48.980 scholarship on a person and you start putting the stories together you're like no one's put
00:19:53.080 this together before well i guess i have to now and then there you are yeah yeah i mean that's
00:19:59.180 basically what i'm doing with the book after that which i'm also writing at the same time which is
00:20:02.700 about women who are guillotined i'm so excited about this book yeah yeah i'm so excited i'm
00:20:07.640 gonna have to finish i'm enjoying it so much i just find so many things um but the process for
00:20:13.240 writing that uh was basically i found that there wasn't an accurate list of every single woman that
00:20:20.580 was guillotined in paris so the first thing i had to do was go through all of the records uh you
00:20:27.320 know like all of the trial records the executioners records everything and put together an accurate
00:20:34.980 list of every single woman um and that meant taking off some names that are often on those
00:20:40.220 lists and adding new ones in and also the lists the original lists were phonetically 0.90
00:20:46.200 spelt so a lot of the names were just like what even the fuck is this yeah so I had to put it
00:20:54.820 took me a really long time um to accurately get every name and actually identify each person so
00:21:02.380 I had an actual idea of who they were um and that took ages but I've got the list now so that's
00:21:07.360 going in the book at the end so everyone gets to see the list um and then uh and then the stories
00:21:12.980 start to take shape as I was putting it together so I came up with I found so many fascinating
00:21:20.560 stories that I've never seen in books that are just in the records um and just there waiting
00:21:29.080 to be told so that is a real labor of love um it's taking forever because I just keep finding
00:21:35.300 more and more stuff it's just some of it it's just like I'm obsessed like it's like romance
00:21:41.260 novel level stuff like yeah um aristocrats in love with deputies and getting getting executed
00:21:49.300 and then the guy goes and kills himself and all this sort of stuff and it's like how is this stuff
00:21:54.060 not being written about before this is insane these people are mental and it's also highly
00:21:59.960 emotional and there's wives begging to be executed with their husbands and just it's just crazy it's
00:22:08.020 just so much so much drama so I'm loving writing that um the book's changed form so many times
00:22:15.400 since I started but I think it's on its like its actual trajectory now so I'm yeah I'm really
00:22:21.520 excited about finishing that it's completely mental but that's another one where it's just
00:22:26.120 like it's just turn it's just a deep dive I don't know how it's going to end up actually but
00:22:30.240 I hope people like it I don't know I will like it I'm excited I don't know what
00:22:36.940 it turns out like but yeah it's um just the fact that he had to go through like to compile the list
00:22:43.440 in the first place like i just i would personally just find that really interesting to know just
00:22:47.140 names and ages and reasons and i'm sure a lot of the reasons are weird like oh it's just like oh
00:22:55.300 got drunk and shouted vive la roa you know and so now you're being executed in her sitting room
00:23:02.580 um yeah it's just ridiculous reasons danced around a dance with some foreign soldiers 0.82
00:23:10.080 so quite a few of them and then there's big groups of there's like um just big groups of
00:23:17.720 women brought from the provinces all together and just executed at the same time there's entire 0.99
00:23:23.680 families there's mothers with their daughters um sisters there's like four sisters executed
00:23:29.540 together it's incredibly depressing and it's so sad so I did make a note of when women were
00:23:38.100 executed with their husbands and their their sons but on the whole I wasn't really looking at men
00:23:44.580 so much but I did sort of pick out a couple of interesting men because I was you know I came
00:23:50.420 across like some Englishmen who were executed which is something you know that I'd always been
00:23:56.140 that never happened um but it did um and so i was like interested in researching like oh who is this
00:24:02.140 random scots guy who got guillotined in 1793 like what um and you know and i was also interested in
00:24:09.200 you know you hear a lot of stories online on places like reddit uh about you know they
00:24:14.560 executed children um they didn't execute children like um the youngest person was 15 16 so i suppose
00:24:21.880 you know um which was kind of the age of i suppose people being hanged in elsewhere for
00:24:30.600 various crime ridiculous crimes as well um but yeah they weren't executing children children
00:24:37.280 women but there are you know there were quite a few people who um had their sentences deferred 0.54
00:24:43.160 until they're given birth and you've literally taken the day after you've given birth and executed
00:24:48.220 and it that is to my that's just appalling um and that the babies weren't killed they were
00:24:55.160 given to the women's families to raise so there's quite a few instances of this um some women were
00:25:02.040 allowed to have their children in prison with them um and then they were you know but they
00:25:06.720 weren't prisoners so they were able to leave um so you know it there's so many it's just such a
00:25:12.340 weird situation i think particularly with the women who were in prison because yeah they they
00:25:17.940 tended to have like quite a distinct culture in their prisons and there's just they're just so
00:25:24.100 interesting there's you know I find them just general I just find women's history more interesting
00:25:28.340 than men though so well I mean frankly no this is I do a women's history podcast I'm yeah also I
00:25:34.160 think like women in terms of the women who are being guillotined and all this stuff like from
00:25:38.820 the stuff that I've been reading about and learning not just Marie Antoinette but although there was
00:25:42.940 obviously so much sexism and misogyny in her story but just the way that people were talking
00:25:47.800 about russo and being like oh women shouldn't leave the house basically they should just stay 1.00
00:25:52.520 home and breastfeed their children who will be the next patriots of the nation so of course women's 1.00
00:25:57.440 behavior it's like oh she was dancing you know like of course that was who they're gonna guillotine 0.99
00:26:02.160 like that's who the government was yeah exactly i mean think about the way the french treated
00:26:08.480 french women who fraternized with german soldiers at the end of world war ii and probably world war
00:26:14.800 one as well um you know that it's always women who get punished in the most bizarre awful ways
00:26:21.940 for stepping outside the home stepping like for daring to exist outside um yeah it's it's it's
00:26:32.540 horrible and but yeah you do i mean i've always my interest in the french revolution has been
00:26:38.920 I pretty much went to a lot you know my entire life and as a teenager and you know I had to
00:26:45.020 really kind of work around the you know those those sort of hideous aspects of it you know and
00:26:54.940 one you know being interested in these people and sympathizing with them and being like kind
00:27:00.640 of fascinated with like Antoine Sanjouz who was a terrible person and probably would have been an
00:27:04.380 himself you know but you know he's he has my heart i know i know i saw you post he's your
00:27:09.820 problematic fave yeah i know he's my problematic fave i love him so much um but knowing that you
00:27:17.300 know if i'd been around then i i wouldn't have done well i would not have done well at all but
00:27:22.740 then again if i've gone back now with my knowledge who knows you know he knows i might have become
00:27:29.080 Madame de Saint-Just and everything would have been fine you know it would have been okay it
00:27:34.220 would have been fine um probably not um so yeah there's kind of a lot of things there that you
00:27:39.720 have to kind of reconcile with your own with you know your own opinions and stuff but yeah
00:27:45.500 yeah it's um it's such a I just find it such a fascinating period of history I just love the
00:27:52.440 fact that you know they all knew each other they were also surprisingly young some of them were
00:27:57.600 quite hot um and they just had these like bizarre interpersonal rivalries and you get all these
00:28:04.140 little snippets of gossip like you know people talking about how you know Louis like Saint-Just
00:28:11.880 really hates Desmoulins because of Desmoulins like secret vice and it's like what was he talking
00:28:16.600 about and it was probably just bi you know or something that he just didn't like and you know
00:28:23.320 and everyone's cousins with everyone else and dame milan and robespierre went to school together
00:28:28.120 and everyone's just you know and they've got all these like links and everything's just like so
00:28:34.140 intertwined it's so personal and tense but it's not like kind of like defriending people on
00:28:41.500 facebook it's like oh yeah you know dantuan and robespierre are falling out so rose is gonna have
00:28:47.400 his head chopped off you know yeah yeah it's it's a friend yeah no yeah it's a friend group and like
00:28:53.740 these dramas are playing out and part of what I find so perplexing about all of it is the fact
00:29:00.820 like the French Revolution began and there's kind of this feeling of oh we're a bunch of lawyers
00:29:07.660 like these young men and they have these ideals and want a constitution and stuff and very rapidly
00:29:12.280 it turns just into the perch and it's just like limbs on the street people being killed and these
00:29:18.380 guys are all killing each other and it's kind of like and then eventually napoleon is able to swoop
00:29:22.680 in becomes the emperor and then the monarchy is restored so it's like why did we do any of this
00:29:27.540 why i know what was the point i know it's like watching raiders of the lost ark and realizing
00:29:33.420 the the film would have ended in exactly the same way if he hadn't done anything if if indiana jones
00:29:40.980 had not intervened at any point he could have just left them to it and they would have opened
00:29:46.040 the ark and all like their faces would have melted with absolutely no interference from him 0.59
00:29:50.820 whatsoever what was the point except he did get to punch a nazi so we applaud him for that and
00:29:56.900 yeah that's great and it was also the bit when he shot someone uh in the marketplace when they
00:30:01.360 had the sword and that's pretty cool yeah but no it's the same thing it's just kind of like
00:30:05.940 you went through all this stuff so many people died only to bring the monarchy back i know
00:30:12.360 i know it wasn't even the cool monarchy either it was just all the leftover losers it's like what
00:30:17.940 guys um yeah i just find the whole thing like so crazy but so interesting because they're just so
00:30:26.640 i mean you know you can't say that women are too emotional for politics when you look at
00:30:32.280 the french revolution it's like guys
00:30:34.600 oh overwrought i think someone needs a nap and that's someone's robespierre
00:30:43.540 when i learned when i learned the robespierre didn't even wear the outfit like of the regulatory
00:30:51.600 effort that he still wore his culottes i was like robespierre he's the head of it all like
00:30:57.320 what are we even doing it's i know with his wig yeah he was just yeah he was i i really like
00:31:05.560 robespierre i think there's there's a lot to like about robespierre okay no he was you know
00:31:12.900 you know he was um fully anti-slavery like wholly dedicated to that he was a decent guy but he just
00:31:22.400 I don't know just what you know I think it was just like kill or be killed yeah oh no it was
00:31:30.640 it was and and then there's like their ideals and I mean we've seen it happen so many times when
00:31:37.380 young people have ideals that no human can actually exist by it always ends up like that
00:31:45.060 it's just no one could be perfect enough for robespierre and san just and their their vision
00:31:53.240 of purity and virtue like nobody is that good um and so it was always going to end in tears because
00:31:59.560 they were always going to be disappointed by the people you know the people that yeah but i think
00:32:05.460 the thing with them is i don't think even because even though he was very young i don't think san
00:32:11.120 just expected to survive anything that was happening anyway you know his yeah his general
00:32:17.500 demeanor was very sort of you know we're basically going to have to sacrifice ourselves here guys
00:32:24.560 you know we're not we're not getting out of here alive we've done too much we've seen
00:32:29.020 too many things it's you know um i think he they and then they all seem so tired at the end as
00:32:36.140 well i think all the fights um so they were ready to go but yeah it's so crazy i really want to write
00:32:44.040 a novel about thermidor actually because it just really lends itself to that sort of complete
00:32:48.500 insanity but i haven't got the time so maybe but yeah when you when you're done the other three
00:32:53.960 four books you already said you're actively currently writing yeah i've been commissioned
00:32:58.400 to write like six or seven more books so i've got to write all those and then i might have time to
00:33:04.240 write a novel and buy a house in France and never write anything again. That'd be great.
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00:35:45.920 and we're back yeah actually speaking well i guess we have them speaking of france but
00:35:53.780 i wanted to ask you what you not just your thoughts which i think you can assume but what
00:36:00.760 what reaction you saw when the paris opening ceremonies last year had the beheaded marie
00:36:07.420 Antoinette in the conciergerie I saw I saw some backlash to that which I was glad to see
00:36:15.620 uh I thought it was just crass um a bit and just super tacky you know it's just um I thought that
00:36:23.540 the whole thing was supposed to be like a celebratory event but yeah let's like um go back
00:36:28.700 to like something like quite distastefully bloody that happened in our past that you know was 0.75
00:36:33.960 basically an act of judicial murder i mean if russia ever allowed to host it again what they're 0.71
00:36:39.160 going to do they're going to have like the the romanovs being like shot in the window exactly
00:36:44.720 it's like it's like it's the fact that marie antoine that was executed publicly does not 0.50
00:36:55.100 make it any less of a murder than than the shooting of nicolas the second in his family
00:37:01.280 you know it's just a judicial wiping out by you know it's it's not it just didn't seem appropriate
00:37:09.860 it's like if in the London ones we'd had I don't know if we'd had the beheading of Anne Boleyn
00:37:16.740 I was going to say actually like Jack the Ripper and his victims you know it's not on the par isn't
00:37:21.800 it it's like murder is murder it's getting rid of someone for whatever reason um it I just didn't
00:37:28.100 think it was appropriate it just didn't seem there's like so many nice things that they could
00:37:31.780 have had but you know no they chose not to and I yeah I just thought it was a bit grim a bit tacky
00:37:39.660 they can be really tacky with the like general use of media though you know you should see the 0.92
00:37:45.320 websites the French use it's still like geocities whenever you go on French websites it's just like
00:37:52.080 what the yeah i i um in my day job i work for a public library in canada and so we order books
00:38:01.740 in french language and there's such a difference between books that are just english books
00:38:05.940 translated to french or books from france the books from france are all so like children's
00:38:11.080 books they have the weird most disgusting illustrations and they're all just like the
00:38:15.580 story of the happy poo and his voyage in the toilet and then he dies just like the most
00:38:21.640 bizarre things i'm like france is a strange place if this is what if this is what they're producing
00:38:27.280 for their children to read like i don't know what i just think it's weird that when you look at
00:38:34.960 french books they often look awful like they're like i don't know and this has been going on for
00:38:44.060 a really long time it's like ai they look like not even ai they're not even that good they just
00:38:50.120 look like someone just got a picture of something you know when people take um posts on you know
00:38:54.600 when people like uh publishers like really crack publishers will sort of bring out editions of
00:39:00.300 Wuthering Heights or something yeah but there's no relation whatsoever to Wuthering Heights and
00:39:06.260 everyone laughs at it on social media that's what French books are all like it's like why is there
00:39:12.460 a picture of an iron on the front cover of a tale of two cities that sort of thing it's like this is
00:39:22.360 this makes no sense why have you got some spoons on war and peace we don't know and then yeah that
00:39:31.980 it's just awful i've got yeah i've got a lot of french books and most of them are okay but some
00:39:37.460 of them it's just like whoa why did you go with that font nice yeah really grim so that was like
00:39:43.500 the whole the whole opening ceremony is like parts that I found charmingly strange but the
00:39:48.220 Marie Antoinette concierge especially after I did my research like I just re-watched that's why I
00:39:52.600 brought it up I re-watched the Olympic opening ceremonies a few weeks ago and I was just like
00:39:56.340 oh that's because I remembered I didn't remember what palace it was that they were and I'm just
00:40:00.960 like that one like they're there like the place where she spent the devastating last days of her
00:40:07.340 life and then you've got that and then they're playing this heavy metal song you've got like
00:40:11.060 fake blood like I know that that like that was a choreographer or somebody like designed that
00:40:17.540 the olympic committee or somebody in general to your knowledge how is Marie Antoinette thought of
00:40:23.880 in France in general they seem to be sort of just distantly affectionate you know they don't hate
00:40:32.940 they don't really it's like a just a general sort of it's not even nearly how we regard
00:40:41.500 Anne Boleyn in this country though there isn't that same sort of you know people in this country
00:40:48.640 genuinely kind of like really love Anne Boleyn um I'm I don't um I'm not really a Tudors person
00:40:58.320 and um yeah i mean you've you'll see her image on staff um but it's not like she's not as present
00:41:07.820 i think perhaps as people think she's going to be if you go to paris you can think oh is there
00:41:13.440 going to be loads of marie entoinette stuff that there isn't you know which might be one of the
00:41:17.140 reasons why you know chinese visitors or whatever get there and they're really disappointed like
00:41:21.260 where's all the marie entoinette stuff there's not much um there isn't that same sort of like
00:41:27.160 real it's not like when you go to like like berlin and there's queen louise stuff everywhere or
00:41:34.720 salzburg and there's mozart stuff everywhere or austria and there's empressisi you know um or i
00:41:42.200 suppose scotland we have mary queen of scots um it's not like that it's she's not that prevalent
00:41:49.000 in their social media then she doesn't pop up in adverts all the time or yes it's kind of it's
00:41:55.400 kind of odd and maybe it is because of this sort of sense of well lads we did fuck up a bit there
00:42:00.880 didn't we yeah i heard from i know i just know from again just your social media that you post
00:42:07.000 videos and pictures sometimes from versailles you've obviously been to versailles oh yeah yeah
00:42:12.600 i've heard from one of my listeners who went there that they found that she wasn't as present in
00:42:18.220 Versailles as they would have thought is that yeah experience as well uh well yeah I think um
00:42:26.380 might I mean I've been going to Versailles I've been a lot I mean the first time I went was in
00:42:33.060 1989 and uh the last time was a couple years ago when I lived in the town for a month um to do my
00:42:40.220 research um so I spent a lot of time just wandering and by about the second week I was just walking
00:42:45.900 past the chateau not even looking at it like just like oh yeah just walk past the palace
00:42:50.640 whatever you know um which was quite the privilege um and um yeah i always think of
00:42:58.300 versailles being kind of like they seem to zone things a lot in the palaces and stuff so you know
00:43:05.480 they'll have like it's particular themes so fontainebleau they try and really sort of lean
00:43:09.300 it towards napoleon versailles i think they prefer to lean it more towards louis the 14th
00:43:14.980 it's the 14th world if you like and Marie Antoinette's part is you know her main apartments
00:43:24.500 obviously you can see her private apartments upstairs and then you know but really if you
00:43:29.740 really want the Marie Antoinette stuff it's like in the petit train on um out in the gardens um so
00:43:35.960 it's not really yeah she's not like everywhere it's just contained in those particular areas
00:43:43.860 but there's louis the 14th everywhere you know it's it's his palace it's his yeah it's very much
00:43:50.820 but then you know there's sort of little these little bits downstairs because um you know they
00:43:54.860 have got like um the apartments of her aunts um downstairs and they're gorgeous um and the
00:44:01.900 dauphin's apartments and the dauphin's apartments where her children lived um but they're kind of
00:44:06.860 like set up as they were during uh louis the 16th's parents residence yeah but it's not like
00:44:14.080 a big marie entoinette fest when you go there you know it's which i kind of wish it was but yeah
00:44:21.980 i feel like i'm just i'm from canada if you i feel like what i would have expected is if you
00:44:29.940 go to prince ed rhode island and of green gables you cannot escape and of green gables every store
00:44:35.880 every pub every like it's just everywhere it's a it's the braids it's the hat it's
00:44:41.640 angry gables land puffsley everything carriage rides it's everything
00:44:47.240 and they have so many tourists especially from asia who go there because that's what they want
00:44:53.100 they just want so i would imagine those same tourists would come to versailles or come to
00:44:57.260 paris and just expect marie antoinette world and to not get that is interesting but also feels
00:45:03.260 very French they would be like tourists want this who cares like yeah I mean that's very French
00:45:08.680 isn't it they just yeah I mean I mean they've even I mean I suppose that says something because
00:45:14.260 in the conciergerie uh pretty much the first time I ever went they had the Marie Antoinette cell
00:45:21.120 with the Marie Antoinette model sitting yeah and the replica of the fleur-de-lis wallpaper and the
00:45:28.340 guard like a model guard and it just set up as it would have been when she was in there and that
00:45:34.220 was every single time I went after that that cell was there and then the last two times like um I
00:45:41.040 went to Paris um the year before so about six months before lockdown started um and um it had
00:45:52.100 gone it'd been replaced by you know an information display um and that was still there the last time
00:45:58.380 i went which was two years ago and um they and i just found that really interesting that this
00:46:06.800 had been such an integral part of the conciergerie experience this like the fake cell and
00:46:11.140 yeah but but they always they were always honest about the fact that this is not actually where
00:46:17.820 her cell was this is just a cell that has been made to look like Marie Antoinette's cell and
00:46:23.860 it's been like this for decades so we're just going to carry on with this you know and and
00:46:28.940 gradually I think things started being taken out to make it look less tacky and finally they just
00:46:35.220 went you know what this was never her cell so it's not herself so we're going to just put a display
00:46:39.860 about the French Revolution in this area and we don't have a Marie Antoinette cell anymore we're
00:46:45.600 just going to make clear that the little room to the side of the chapel which is the memorial like
00:46:51.440 it's got the memorial to her in there um this is actually all the remains of her actual cell um
00:46:57.560 and i found that actually quite interesting and i sort of like okay marie entoinette vanishing from
00:47:03.140 the stuff that's associated with her now um that i thought i think it's an interesting decision
00:47:10.020 i will say that the conciergerie shop is still the best place to buy books about the french
00:47:15.260 revolution and Marie Antoinette it's got the most it always has been just the most awesome books
00:47:19.240 it's just incredible but so you know that's still good but yeah it's kind of like people go to the
00:47:24.640 concierge you're expecting to see where she spent those last days they're going to be really
00:47:30.260 disappointed because that it hasn't been like that for a while and other places where she
00:47:35.220 had more presence she seemed absent you know like there isn't that much of her in the Louvre
00:47:41.880 you know I think they have a little room now and that's only been a recent development and before
00:47:48.460 her stuff was kind of scattered but now they have a Marie Antoinette room and it doesn't even have
00:47:52.760 that much so it's it's interesting that you know and Fontainebleau you know it's got like a couple
00:48:00.400 of rooms and a bed chamber but that but then they they kind of I think they kind of prefer to
00:48:06.340 position the bedchamber is like josephine's bed rather than the nets um but that it was marion's
00:48:12.360 bedroom so it's kind of things like that where they almost just sort of i don't know she's just
00:48:18.540 maybe they think it i don't know it because i mean obviously people go there wanting that stuff
00:48:23.680 it's kind of been kind of taken away and yet versailles will you know because they have their
00:48:30.960 policy of um reacquiring art they still do that so obviously they got that lovely duplessis
00:48:38.240 portrait a couple years ago like two three four years ago um of the young marie entoinette when
00:48:44.480 you know in the first year that she was living in france oh the one the one that she didn't like
00:48:48.700 that one yeah yeah she didn't like any of her paintings so like absolutely none um no that's
00:48:55.160 not true but you know it seems to be the general trend um but they have got it on display and it's
00:49:00.420 but it's not in one of the rooms like most of their paintings are it as part of the the room
00:49:05.380 decor and that one i thought i can't really remember actually i think it's um when you're
00:49:10.420 coming out of the hall of mirrors and it's just in its own little alcove and it's on display on
00:49:16.300 its own as a new kind of acquisition um which i thought was interesting but at some point it'll
00:49:21.320 probably get moved into a bed chamber or something i suspect i don't know yeah i always think that's
00:49:27.740 kind of sad because you know I really want to see the Marie Antoinette stuff even if no one else does
00:49:32.100 but apparently I don't know I don't know if I am hoping at some point in the future I can make a
00:49:37.860 trip to to Paris and to Versailles and all I would want to see would be the Marie Antoinette stuff
00:49:42.980 well exactly yeah I mean I'm always kind of been I've been thinking for years actually about doing
00:49:48.820 tours of it um I'm just not well organized I have ADHD so I'm just not organized at all um but yeah
00:49:56.380 so at the moment i just take my boyfriend around he's quite interested like so i haven't been to
00:50:02.080 see the exhibition yet because um i'm gonna i was well we're going for my birthday and
00:50:07.420 next week it's my birthday next oh my god my birthday is next week happy really with it
00:50:14.000 thank you um so yeah we're going for my birthday because i love going to stop with mark because
00:50:20.060 he doesn't really know anything about stuff like that but he loves hearing about it so
00:50:24.720 we're just going to go all around I'm going to talk to him about every single thing and he will
00:50:30.640 listen because he's very well trained that sounds like the perfect boyfriend for you I'm very happy
00:50:37.500 you have so much I one of the reasons I started my podcast is because I want to talk about all
00:50:44.200 this stuff and I'm like no one in my life is interested so I'm just going to talk to the
00:50:49.300 internet and I found lots of people who are interested oh my god that is so cool I should
00:50:55.000 I'm just not organized enough to have a podcast plus I'm just like socially awkward and um yeah
00:51:02.120 my my sleep schedule but you've got all of your books I mean like this is how you're sharing
00:51:07.860 you're not I don't need to have to actually literally talk to someone I'm so happy that
00:51:15.200 you had this conversation with me because honestly I told you at the beginning like I'm so like
00:51:21.080 Marie Antoinette just in the brain I'm like I can't I need to have a conversation about her
00:51:27.240 with somebody who gets it who knows all these things and just from your social media and stuff
00:51:32.940 and like we had like we like we've messaged each other a few times but I was just like I would
00:51:36.680 I need to have this conversation with you I need to like work through my feelings about all this
00:51:41.800 but I want to say and remind everybody your book Marie Antoinette Teen Queen to Guillotine available
00:51:46.740 now yes yes it is now available um I don't know when it's coming out in um on the other side of
00:51:55.940 you know there are ways that we in North America can acquire books yeah the Americas yeah but um
00:52:05.360 I'm I mean I've just sent out a load of books over to Canada and America um that were all
00:52:11.780 ordered via my fiance's website so that's the link that I'm primarily using for that for pre-orders
00:52:18.560 um and it has been okay like Rommel let us do it so I don't know because I was like oh my god am I
00:52:26.780 gonna be able to send these or not so so the good news is um I don't know I can't speak for Amazon
00:52:32.640 or my publisher or anyone else but if anyone in the Americas um wants to order them directly from
00:52:38.740 me i can actually make sure they're sent to them whether they get to them who knows but that part
00:52:45.280 it's it's possible it's possible that i can actually get them to you so that's actually
00:52:50.480 really good news because i've been hearing i mean all sorts of do me things about oh you won't be
00:52:54.600 able to send them to people and stuff so actually yeah i can actually send them um i don't actually
00:52:59.620 know when it's officially out but at least then i can get them to people yeah and i'll put the
00:53:05.620 you don't I'll put the link to to that when I post this episode so everybody can can get them
00:53:10.900 are you signing them is that true yes I am signing them in French and in gold pen even
00:53:18.680 and that's that's so Versailles yeah gold pen and they can't obviously people don't see this
00:53:25.020 but I didn't realize until I got them that the end paper it's like pale pink
00:53:32.060 pale pink and the actual book itself is pink and they've never done that for me before
00:53:38.240 I when I first honestly like I love I just want to say your books are mostly or they're all with
00:53:43.540 pen and sword and I am a real fan of every time I'm trying to research some obscure person from
00:53:50.660 British history the one biography that exists is from pen and sword so I respect their books a lot
00:53:54.680 but I've never seen one from them look this good yeah it's a beautiful book yeah my uh Mark my
00:54:01.100 fiance actually designed it oh yeah we they have like a the I just didn't want the usual designer
00:54:08.300 because they just do like kind of traditional history books um and I had a very definite idea
00:54:13.220 of how I wanted my book to look um and Mark is incredibly good at design um he isn't a designer
00:54:20.880 um but he designs like this is his um this just happens to be on the table I'm not plugging it
00:54:26.200 because he's done this in Edinburgh but he designed like his flyer for Edinburgh he does
00:54:31.620 like he just does it just does amazing um so I asked him to do this um and this is yeah and this
00:54:39.740 is this is what he came up with for my um my book and I just I love it so much luckily the publisher
00:54:46.080 absolutely loves it so um all my books going forwards I mean I've got covers for them online
00:54:52.740 um but I'm going to quietly let those drop off the ground yeah um because he's going to be
00:54:58.720 redoing them so all my books are going to look kind of cool like this and I think like you know
00:55:05.100 the exhibition the V&A exhibition it's Marie Antoinette style and I do think the aesthetic
00:55:09.520 and the look is so much of her story and her image so I think having a book that looks so
00:55:16.540 appealing it just seems appropriate for her you don't want to have one of these boring covers
00:55:20.720 for a Marie Antoinette book like no yeah I mean so many of them just look so boring
00:55:26.780 um and I just thought no I want to lean into that whole you know uh the film Marie Antoinette kind
00:55:34.520 of vibe with it so it's got the back cover is like it's bright pink um everybody should look
00:55:41.160 at the cover but even just the title teen queen to guillotine like you know that this isn't going
00:55:45.260 to be a boring biography yeah it wasn't ever meant to I mean the sort of books I want to write
00:55:50.420 are you know like those really old-fashioned kind of biographies that were written like novels
00:55:55.420 and you know and we all used to devour them when we were kids you know we found our grandmother's
00:56:01.160 houses and there'd be like really trashy like books about like ambling and shit like that and
00:56:05.640 it would be like you know and i mean nowadays people certain historians whom i will who who
00:56:13.020 we've messaged each other about yeah yes um well you know would obviously say that these people
00:56:18.600 are terrible and we shouldn't be reading their books but um you know they just gave us so much
00:56:23.720 enjoyment and there was such a a window into history and these lives of these incredible 0.89
00:56:29.620 people and it doesn't matter that they were like really overdramatic and you know a bit ridiculous
00:56:35.240 um and a little bit trashy perhaps they were just so entertaining and history should be it doesn't
00:56:41.760 have to be dry i mean yeah you know if you no one i'm not expecting anyone to use my book to
00:56:48.620 research an essay or you know that's not what it's for i mean you could because it's you know
00:56:56.160 it's not made up so yeah and it's stuff is you know it's it's a book about my answer net i mean
00:57:02.820 you know it does what it says on the tin basically but that's not its primary function what i actually
00:57:08.420 wanted to write was a really cool biography that people could like take on holiday and read yes
00:57:13.700 exactly perfect and as a person who has read this book I will say that is how it is it's like
00:57:19.060 readable it's like there's other biographies I read and I have to kind of pause and stop and
00:57:23.660 then be like oh let me just like I don't know look at these footnotes or whatever yours is
00:57:27.560 just like you just devour it it's it's very readable so your goal achieved oh yeah I mean
00:57:34.780 that's basically what I want I just want people to like kind of read it and then and kind of think
00:57:38.760 oh this is like clipping along at a good pace yeah it's really good I'm really enjoying reading
00:57:42.780 this I've got like I can totally visualize all this like crazy shit and like these mad clothes 0.94
00:57:48.320 they're wearing and what the fuck's going on and um and you know actually like because I mean I was 0.95
00:57:55.360 a novelist first so I kind of try and also my degree is actually in art history so the visual 0.91
00:58:01.360 elements the portraits the art uh what really you know the bones of the books that I write so
00:58:08.600 I'll always talk about the portraits and um you know and the decor and how people looked and stuff
00:58:15.380 because I just deal with things in a very visual way um and um yeah so I just wanted people to be
00:58:22.640 able to like visualize things and just get really into it um but also it just not to be heavy I just
00:58:28.600 doing one to be heavy and obviously i write a lot of books about people getting their heads chopped
00:58:31.760 off apparently that's my thing um so um yeah i mean it's hard i mean i mean i suppose that's
00:58:39.860 the problem with writing history books like they always end with someone's death yeah yeah and
00:58:44.960 that's that's the thing that i find in i mean i found in your book like it's fun to read as you
00:58:49.340 go along you're not just like little did she know this was the last time she would ever see her son
00:58:53.800 like i hate when books do that where it's like no she didn't know that so don't tell me that like
00:58:57.840 you want to be there with her she doesn't know what's going to happen next but yes it's always
00:59:02.360 so hard to write the end because it's such a tragic ending but yeah so i was looking through
00:59:06.780 earlier because i was signing loads of copies and getting them ready to send out and um i hadn't i
00:59:12.280 mean it's been a really it's been over a year since i turned it in and for editing and stuff
00:59:18.100 so i haven't i just completely forgotten it and i actually read the last line um when you know
00:59:23.720 spoilers she gets guillotined at the end guys i'm really sorry um and i read that last line
00:59:31.860 that i wrote and i was just like oh what did that was that's actually really well and i i really put
00:59:38.280 that well that's actually really sweet because you know i don't know if you remember the last
00:59:42.640 i don't remember specifically is this gonna be a spoiler i mean we we all know the end of the
00:59:48.500 story it's fine um hang on I was just like oh in a heartbeat the noise and roar of the crowd
00:59:56.940 and brightness of daylight all faded away to nothing and Marie Antoinette was at peace at last
01:00:03.100 and I was just like oh did I write that oh sad isn't it
01:00:09.620 that's actually like oh it's actually quite quite lovely yeah that's a really nice way of putting it
01:00:16.820 you know because we felt i think when i when i wrote that it felt like being on such a roller
01:00:22.580 coaster and it was just all this stuff happening and it was just getting worse and worse and worse
01:00:28.540 it was like a fly trapped in the spider's web where it's just the more it struggles the worse
01:00:33.640 things get and um and it yeah and then i just i just thought well how would i feel you know and
01:00:41.840 it was like honestly the thought of as she's dying i mean she must have just thought thank 0.86
01:00:50.640 fuck for that i know i was just thinking yeah exactly she had been wanting to die for a while 0.89
01:00:57.160 just because like just get me out of this just yeah it was yeah and she was free she'd finally 0.99
01:01:03.980 escaped and it's i don't know she's so let down by people like if her mother was still being alive
01:01:09.240 like none of that would have happened none of it well so much just like the you know unsung
01:01:15.240 villain of the whole her whole life was really smallpox and just how it kept killing off
01:01:19.740 crucial people that just really pivoted the king um anyway just the i agree i think if her mother
01:01:28.940 had been around things would have been different but it's like 750 things had to all go wrong
01:01:34.100 in order for this to be the result and they all did yeah she was so unfortunate but um
01:01:42.320 yeah but at least she got to try curry she found it a bit too spicy didn't she yeah but I just love
01:01:49.180 the fact that every so often I do think of this I thought of it earlier today just pops into my
01:01:54.100 head sometimes like Marie Antoinette had curry like how cool is that it's like it's one of those
01:02:00.400 unexpected weird things yeah you just don't you know you sort of think oh yeah when was curry
01:02:07.280 invented oh when we had when that had curry you know and we know what she thought of it and i
01:02:12.880 just think that's i just think that's wonderful i think it's really neat i love those yeah just
01:02:17.760 those humanizing details which is like oh that was a person and she didn't live that long ago
01:02:22.380 in the grand scheme of things yeah no i mean because we've got photos of um empress marie
01:02:29.240 Louise who was like a great niece um who was married to Napoleon and there's photos of her
01:02:35.460 and that's it's just that's just insane to me you know there's photos of guys who are
01:02:41.860 I mean really old they were they were old at the time but you know guys who fought at Waterloo
01:02:46.680 there's like photos of them as old men it's just like it's not that long afterwards I mean
01:02:52.300 if Marie Antoinette had lived a full span of life and I'm not sure she would have done because I
01:02:58.040 think she was actually really quite sick yeah but yeah and i think that might have always have
01:03:03.180 happened then i mean it it's possible that she could have been maybe still alive in the 1840s
01:03:12.960 and we would have had photos perhaps maybe when would i think people have photos then we've got
01:03:20.200 photos of like a reasonably like early early photos but yeah well and even marie louise i one
01:03:26.960 the things i read suggested that she apparently looked a lot like marie antoinette so to have
01:03:31.960 photos of her it's kind of like okay people who knew marie antoinette and saw her said there was
01:03:37.040 a resemblance and we can see a photo of her so you can kind of yeah i just find it yeah it's just so
01:03:43.680 interesting but yeah it just wasn't that long ago really in terms of generation and um yeah it's
01:03:54.080 just so in i just find it so interesting it's just such a weird so weird poor thing but um
01:04:01.200 yes so the next book should be next year so hopefully i mean i just want to thank you again
01:04:09.180 thank you so much like i know you don't do podcasts usually but i really feel honored that
01:04:13.260 you joined me for this conversation i'm so happy to have this conversation with you i think like
01:04:17.900 the listeners too we're all in withdrawal we're all in marie entonette withdrawal after like going
01:04:21.980 through all these episodes for so long and so i think your book is a great thing that if people
01:04:26.480 want to really dive in and learn even more details than what i was able to cover oh everybody should
01:04:32.100 read it everybody should read it but also just also everyone should follow you on social media
01:04:35.220 because you're constantly even when i was doing the podcast you post about some portrait i hadn't
01:04:39.740 seen before i'm like wait what's that portrait and then suddenly i had to put that in my podcast
01:04:42.960 because every portrait has a weird story i know i love all that i used to just post constantly
01:04:49.700 about her portraits um so i've been delving out those the old research and stuff and just like
01:04:55.460 sticking them on my sub stack because i don't i can't think of anything else to talk about
01:04:59.300 because i too just think about it 24 7 basically yeah um so yeah that's uh i mean i do more post
01:05:08.120 i do more podcasts if people let me do them at like three o'clock in the morning
01:05:12.920 the time zone looks so great for me yeah the secret is just north american people
01:05:17.600 yeah I just won't do any more UK ones because if people expect me to do stuff during the day
01:05:23.460 it is not happening like I sleep until like one o'clock and then I get up and I roam around
01:05:30.960 drinking coffee and shouting at my cats and then around about midnight I come to life and yeah so
01:05:39.540 it works out so because usually when I'm interviewing people from the UK for me it's
01:05:43.960 like okay i'll wake up at 6 a.m and for them it's like three in the afternoon or something like that
01:05:48.440 like that oh my god i wish i'd known because there's no way you would have had to do that
01:05:53.040 seriously no this is perfect perfect for me too yeah but yeah thank you so much for taking the
01:05:58.660 time to talk to me um and everyone should read your book and order it from you and i'll i'll
01:06:06.120 message you when this episode is going to come out just so you can know if you want to share it and
01:06:09.880 stuff but yeah again thank you so much thank you so again you can follow melanie burrows on
01:06:20.080 substack she's on instagram she's on threads all of her accounts are called madame guillotine but
01:06:24.520 it's mme guillotine is where you can find her and then also her book marie antoinette teen queen to
01:06:29.940 guillotine is available to buy the best place to get it as she said is probably from from her
01:06:35.560 fiance's website, which is markburrows.co.uk. I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well.
01:06:41.280 So you can get your personalized signed copy in French with her gold pen. Even just look at,
01:06:46.300 go to the site to look at this book. It's a beautiful looking object. And again, I'm so
01:06:49.980 grateful to Melanie, both for writing this book that really helped me with my research and also
01:06:54.340 for joining me for this conversation. And I promise we're moving into our next era on vulgar
01:07:00.720 History Halloween-era Mary Shelley month kicks off on Wednesday with a conversation about Mary
01:07:07.080 Shelley's mom, Mary Wollstonecraft, who, guess what, went to Paris during the French Revolution.
01:07:12.800 So we're like bridging from one topic into another anyway. So there'll be a new episode
01:07:17.620 of Vulgar History on Wednesday. Thank you so much for listening. And until next time,
01:07:21.160 keep your pants on and your tits out. Vulgar History is researched, scripted, 1.00
01:07:26.820 and hosted by Anne Foster. That's me. Editor is Christina Lumagi. Theme music is by The Severn
01:07:33.100 Duo. Transcripts of this podcast are available at vulgarhistory.com by Aveline Malek. You can get
01:07:38.920 early ad-free episodes of Vulgar History by becoming a paid member of our Patreon for as 0.59
01:07:43.540 low as $1 a month at patreon.com slash Anne Foster Writer. Vulgar History merchandise is available
01:07:49.720 at vulgarhistory.com slash store for Americans and for everyone else at vulgarhistory.redbubble.com.
01:07:56.340 Follow us on social media at vulgarhistorypod and get in touch with me via email at vulgarhistorypod at gmail.com.
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