Vulgar History - Women Trapped In Towers, part 4： The Niece of Henry VIII

00:00:00.000 hello and welcome to vulgar history a feminist women's history comedy podcast my name is anne

00:00:20.120 foster and i say the word like a lot and if that bothers you there are other podcasts you can listen

00:00:28.460 to instead because that is how I talk and I'm not going to change so here we all are um yeah hi

00:00:36.080 so this is season four and what we're looking at are women trapped in towers and the assholes who

00:00:41.160 put them there and as much as last week I was saying like you know don't define a woman's story 0.80

00:00:45.340 by how it ended it's like the last three stories have all ended with these sort of like and then

00:00:52.460 she was sent in the tower and slowly died the end like when the last part of the story is what

00:00:58.780 you're left with it kind of lingers and I was feeling a little bummed out about what these

00:01:02.920 stories were like so this story is about a person who sent the tower I believe or to a tower the

00:01:11.200 tower of London I think three times but that is not the ending is not the same as the other one

00:01:17.000 So, spoiler not spoiler, it's going to be less of a bummer of an episode, basically.

00:01:24.040 As much as I try to make no episodes bummers. 0.53

00:01:26.740 So who we're looking at today is Lady Margaret Douglas, a.k.a. Lady Lennox, a.k.a. one of the nieces of King Henry VIII. 0.64

00:01:38.600 And to understand her story, we need to understand quite a bit about what her mother's deal was.

00:01:45.580 so margaret douglas was born on october 8th 1515 her mother was margaret tudor the older sister

00:01:57.380 of king henry the eighth the one who had been married off to james the fourth of scotland

00:02:02.240 so margaret tudor henry the eighth's sister played on in the spanish princess by lucy from

00:02:10.680 the Narnia movies Margaret Tudor not who we're talking about but who we are talking about at the

00:02:16.940 moment she married the Scottish king and then things were kind of cool between England and

00:02:23.120 Scotland on and off for a while like Henry VIII was the king um Margaret's husband was the king

00:02:28.520 of Scotland and there's sort of like it's an okay relationship between the two and then the whole

00:02:32.240 various things got in between them um and after about 10 years Margaret's husband died

00:02:39.520 she'd had two sons uh James and Alexander so her older son became James the fifth of Scotland

00:02:47.020 and then um she got married again Margaret Tudor her second husband was Archibald Douglas

00:02:56.240 who was a horrible person and we'll learn a bit about that right now basically she's got her 0.97

00:03:04.520 hearts stolen by this sort of legendary asshole archibald douglas married him and then their 0.97

00:03:10.840 child together was margaret douglas who is today's heroine so effectively the first two years of 0.99

00:03:21.540 margaret douglas's baby life were held in a tug of war between her parents um archibald the horrible 0.96

00:03:29.320 asshole and her mother margaret tudor and henry the eighth so like on one side you've got henry 0.97

00:03:33.240 the eighth on the other side you've got margaret's parents it all culminated like it all culminated 0.92

00:03:39.200 basically in archibald literally snatched margaret out of her mother's arms as a baby like literally

00:03:45.840 grabbed her um and ran off with her back to scotland uh there weren't child custody arrangements

00:03:51.240 back then but effectively archibald got primary custody through this sort of finders keepers

00:03:58.340 strategy. He was a terrible person and an even worse soldier. So while he went off to lose

00:04:03.520 various battles, he left Margaret with her godfather as a guardian. Her godfather was a

00:04:10.020 notorious to me, pretty famous to everybody, Catholic person named Cardinal Wolsey. So

00:04:17.480 that's the same Cardinal Wolsey who wound up being beheaded for not being able to procure

00:04:22.180 Henry VIII a divorce to marry Anne Boleyn. So it's just this sort of mental image I have of

00:04:28.140 the spider web of connections between people is just like a giant ink blot now because everybody's

00:04:33.100 connected to everybody in so many ways so this was not an ideal little orphan annie daddy warbucks

00:04:39.100 situation um because cardinal wolsey was not a cool person to her anyway he got himself killed

00:04:47.160 and by that point margaret douglas was 15 years old extremely clever and intelligent and reportedly

00:04:54.820 very beautiful and poised but no one was going to say she wasn't because of her family relationships

00:05:00.140 e.g she's the niece of henry the eighth who was at this point very anxious about not having an

00:05:06.180 heir to the throne kind of his signature anxiety so at this point she was something like third

00:05:13.320 in line of succession i think but margaret was kind of it as a backup to the backup so as a

00:05:21.020 teenager, she joined the household of her cousin, Mary, who was later Mary I, who was about her

00:05:27.580 same age, and they became friends and they stayed friends, lifelong friends. When Mary was made

00:05:33.300 illegitimate as part of Henry's strategy to marry Anne Boleyn, Margaret bumped up a spot in the

00:05:39.120 who will inherit the throne sweepstakes, making her an even more important and influential teenager

00:05:44.160 than her cousin. She was appointed one of the main ladies-in-waiting to Anne Boleyn and was

00:05:50.140 now treated basically like a royal princess which meant she got great dresses and lots of servants

00:05:54.840 but also meant that henry got to choose who she would marry for political reasons and like so

00:06:00.540 many people in this time period that we've talked about on this podcast margaret had other plans in

00:06:06.240 mind than letting henry decide who she's going to marry like echo of the the gray sisters who are

00:06:11.800 of course her cousins so or francis was her cousin they're like her cousin's children anyway

00:06:19.800 it's again okay so you're gonna be like really again so margaret had already fallen in love

00:06:25.540 with someone his name was thomas howard because every woman in this time period who falls in love

00:06:31.700 secretly falls in love with someone one of the howard boys the howard boys were just like

00:06:36.700 i don't even know like they were every tutor adjacent young woman was powerless against them

00:06:44.440 apparently he was four years older than her which is one of several reasons i think it was probably

00:06:51.280 a love match or at least he was they're mutually using each other for influence or something um

00:06:57.120 so he knew that margaret might one day be queen because everything was very like what's going on

00:07:03.120 with henry and his daughters and stuff that might have made her more appealing to him in general

00:07:09.700 but it was also very dangerous for them to be together just like with catherine gray and that

00:07:14.400 other howard um everybody anyway so it was dangerous for them to be together which

00:07:21.860 counterintuitively i think means it was probably real love because it was really dangerous to do

00:07:27.420 it so why would you do it unless you were in love so not only was henry sort of notorious for hating

00:07:33.140 it when people got married without his permission much like his daughter elizabeth would be too

00:07:37.020 but also margaret was potentially going to be the queen and the queen can't just like

00:07:41.620 marry whomst ever so margaret and thomas got secretly engaged you know i love a secret sexy

00:07:50.080 engagement um but then things took a turn for the worse when anne boleyn fell out of favor

00:07:56.960 and was beheaded because that meant that the whole boleyn family was suddenly like toxic

00:08:02.960 and Thomas Howard was Anne Boleyn's uncle even though he was much younger than her so the Howards

00:08:10.760 and the Boleyns very interrelated surnames of people so it was all lovely it was sort of like

00:08:19.220 the second act of Romeo and Juliet where they were just like secret lovers sneaking off together but

00:08:23.880 then suddenly it veers into like the third act of Romeo and Juliet where you're just like oh no I

00:08:27.780 think people are going to start dying soon because Henry found out about their secret engagement and

00:08:32.680 through them both in the tower of london now remember this is years decades before the whole

00:08:39.880 catherine gray situation with edward was it edward howard ned um so he didn't yet know about the

00:08:49.080 whole thing where when you put two people who are in love with each other both in jail they might

00:08:53.020 have babies together in jail anyway they're both put in tower of london and the crime was love

00:09:00.480 effectively thomas was charged with getting engaged without the king's consent

00:09:05.300 and margaret was not charged but still kept locked up because patriarchy

00:09:09.480 perhaps sensing there was really no happy ending in this for her margaret chose to break things

00:09:16.580 off with thomas but then in this like sad tragic twist thomas got very sick with whatever choose

00:09:22.620 your own tutor era disease and he died in jail of i'm gonna say dysentery or whatever so she broke

00:09:29.460 up with him and then he died so she was heartbroken obviously and then also fell very ill herself

00:09:34.740 because probably you know the disease traveled through aerosols and they didn't have masks then

00:09:40.180 her mother so she was sick margaret douglas was sick her mother margaret tudor way back in

00:09:48.100 scotland wrote a letter pleading with her brother henry the eighth to please let the younger margaret

00:09:53.040 out of prison so she could convalesce somewhere else henry agreed maybe because thomas was dead

00:09:59.240 now anyway so there's no risk of the two of them running off and also he really needed margaret to

00:10:03.940 not die because she was sort of like a backup heir and so she got sent off to a nunnery to heal up

00:10:09.620 with some helpful nuns where margaret not only healed up but also henry decided to release her

00:10:15.720 from being imprisoned and again she wasn't charged with anything so so she was a free woman again as

00:10:22.460 free as she could be being this henry the eight's his niece but then in sort of a good news slash

00:10:29.080 bad news scenario henry was now worried that margaret's claim to the throne might overtake

00:10:34.000 that of his son edward so edward had been born by now henry is married to jane seymour

00:10:38.220 um so just to recap i think what is going on so mary and elizabeth were both kind of were

00:10:47.460 basically understood to be illegitimate because henry had a son and edward was going to be his

00:10:52.720 heir but margaret was still kind of there and so henry was worried that margaret's claim might

00:10:59.780 overtake that of his son edward because of the whole divorce thing anglican church thing

00:11:06.380 like was his just because of the whole annablan situation effectively so margaret was now sort of

00:11:12.540 more dangerous this is like it reminds me of i've done some of these episodes i can't even remember

00:11:18.300 who it is but there was other people like this it was i think it was catherine gray where it's just

00:11:22.560 like oh now she's the air oh now she's not the air oh now she's the air and people are just like 0.64

00:11:25.980 backing different people so henry just to sort of cover his ass um had margaret named illegitimate 0.99

00:11:35.760 even though her mother margaret had been married to archwell douglas horrible asshole but he named 0.99

00:11:43.860 margaret illegitimate which meant she was no longer a potential heir to him which would sort 0.96

00:11:48.860 of like neuter her politically sort of but she's still his niece and she's still brilliant and

00:11:54.140 gorgeous and so she got a new job as lady-in-waiting to anne of cleaves who was just made queen at this

00:12:01.000 point it's sort of helpful to me to have everything happening in parallel to henry the eighth going

00:12:06.300 through the wives because then it can sort of gauge where we are in history so we're on ann

00:12:10.520 of cleves wife wise um margaret was given the great honor of being part of the group sent to

00:12:17.700 greet ann of cleves when she arrived from germany and i feel like someone else we talked about got

00:12:22.600 that too wasn't margaret pole or am i just thinking of best of hardwick or something

00:12:28.760 anyway this is like a big thing she got to go greet Anne of Cleves everything in her world

00:12:36.240 must have just seemed like non-stop chaos because it was but Margaret just kept her position sort

00:12:41.940 of eye of the storm like cool head just kind of going with like where life took her and 0.98

00:12:47.860 not sticking your head out and stuff keeping her eyes on surviving and just trying to sort of amass

00:12:53.480 as much power as she could in her weird situation of course the whole Anne of Cleves marriage was

00:13:00.000 very short-lived and Henry's next wife was a very young woman named Catherine Howard

00:13:05.360 of the Howard family so she was a relative of Margaret's former fiance Thomas Howard so

00:13:13.260 the Howard family sort of like came to court en masse because they were popular again so it must

00:13:20.020 have been weird for her to see like her ex-dead fiance who she went to jail for his family to be

00:13:25.780 around all the time they you know they probably kind of look like him too one of the howards on

00:13:31.360 the scene was a person named sir charles howard and wouldn't you know it like the howard boys just

00:13:37.000 romancing the hell out of everybody margaret fell in love with him so she just couldn't quit these

00:13:43.440 Howard boys so Charles was a very high he was very high ranking because he was the brother

00:13:50.120 of Catherine Howard the queen and Margaret at this point technically had a lower status than

00:13:57.000 him because she was still technically illegitimate even though she was the king's niece but a bigger

00:14:02.560 issue was again Henry had not been their matchmaker and he freaked out whenever anyone

00:14:07.940 hooked up without his permission and so again margaret was sent to the tower of london for

00:14:14.900 dating without permission like twice now like i i love that she did the exact same thing again

00:14:21.240 like she's just like i will not stop i will not stop doing this like send me to the tower like

00:14:26.500 i don't know just history repeating so she was so smart in so many ways which we're going to see

00:14:31.640 really soon but her weakness was the howard boys which is just it's it's endearing to me that she

00:14:38.880 just couldn't not fall in love with them so even though she was henry's niece there are only so

00:14:43.520 many times you can get sent to the tower of london for secretly hooking up with somebody against

00:14:48.900 permission before he got tired of you and so it must have been like is she going to be in jail 1.00

00:14:55.600 forever will she be executed but luckily there was a big distraction in the form of her dirtbag

00:15:01.000 father archibald was currently enjoying a lot of power in scotland and he was able to use his

00:15:06.360 influence to get henry to release margaret this was because at this point henry wanted an alliance

00:15:12.140 with scotland and with archibald is sort of his way in henry had to treat margaret margaret

00:15:18.720 especially well to sort of to stay on archibald's good side so just timing was good so once again

00:15:25.900 She went straight from prison to being a very high-ranking lady-in-waiting, this time to Henry's sixth wife, Catherine Parr.

00:15:33.960 So Margaret and Catherine had known each other for years and years because they both hung out around English court throughout their respective teenage years.

00:15:42.200 So it was like, again, it was nice for her to hang out with someone who she knew.

00:15:45.160 um margaret was one of the only people invited to attend henry and katherine's wedding

00:15:50.600 which was a huge honor and shows how important she suddenly was again in this kind of like up

00:15:57.220 and down reputation that she's having so but the thing about being a really important woman in this

00:16:04.300 court at this time was that you knew that henry was going to marry her off for political reasons

00:16:08.800 to someone she may not want to marry sure enough a guy from scotland named matthew stewart came

00:16:15.420 moonwalking into the palace instead of henry i don't know why i wrote that that's in my notes

00:16:19.820 let's just picture him coming moonwalking into the palace and he said if henry would let him

00:16:25.300 marry margaret matthew would provide the king with all of his troops and support in the english

00:16:29.480 versus scotland war which is like not never ending but just to be clear matthew was so

00:16:37.060 opportunistic he's willing to betray his entire country scotland just to marry margaret because

00:16:43.740 he just at the off chance that margaret would inherit the throne and become the queen

00:16:49.460 so matthew thought maybe he would be the king if you're like this reminds me of someone else

00:16:54.580 from history oh just wait because that's their child and we're gonna get to that

00:16:58.660 darnley the child is gonna be darnley from the mary queen of scotts story

00:17:02.840 henry agreed and so he effectively exchanged margaret to matthew for some troops so you know

00:17:12.460 uncle of the year henry the eighth margaret at this point was 29 years old and frankly probably

00:17:19.020 just happy to finally be married so henry would stop throwing her in prison and as it turned out

00:17:24.280 these two actually got along pretty well i don't know what their like love life was like or whatever

00:17:30.500 but they were both extraordinarily ambitious so between their various family backgrounds

00:17:36.660 combined they had a pretty substantial claim to become queen and or king of England and or Scotland

00:17:43.400 and so they quickly became this sort of power couple Henry VIII and Catherine Parr were guests

00:17:50.820 at their wedding which made Margaret and Matthew look extra important to everybody else and pretty

00:17:57.740 quickly the marriage sorted itself out such that margaret was in charge of everything because she

00:18:03.440 was good at everything and matthew kind of did whatever she told him to because he knew that's

00:18:09.480 what he should do they made power moves so including having a child which for them with

00:18:16.460 their combined ancestors who were kings and queens like that kind of made their son a potential new

00:18:25.840 king of england this son was named henry maybe to suck up to the king but history knows him better

00:18:31.600 by his title lord darnley who is the horrible husband of mary queen of scots later on and this

00:18:41.620 really sets things up nicely for when in the future i do a mary queen of scots season because

00:18:46.900 the reason mary queen of scots married lord darnley and that became a threat because darnley

00:18:51.900 has this amazing claim to the throne through both of his parents so anyway but that's not for years

00:18:58.960 and years in oldie times henry the eighth was maybe excessively happy with this pairing he

00:19:08.320 liked the two of them together i guess because he had like match made them himself apparently

00:19:12.700 told margaret that if his own children died childless he'd be happy for her children to

00:19:17.480 inherit the throne e.g darnley so given who he was and what margaret was like like the fact that

00:19:24.060 she was so ambitious and he was so sort of reluctant to give anyone power that was just

00:19:28.440 a huge compliment really and yet margaret maybe she still had some residual feelings from how he

00:19:36.040 threw her in jail twice and she probably blamed him for the death of her first fiance margaret had

00:19:40.660 no intention of just being this sweet little niece and waiting for her grandkids to maybe 0.99

00:19:44.660 one day be king she wanted for herself and matthew to get more power like right away and the best way

00:19:50.940 for her to do that was to play the protestant catholic divide between england and scotland

00:19:56.560 to her own ends so as a wedding gift henry gave margaret and matthew a nice little palace in the

00:20:03.780 countryside and margaret used this as a secret meeting place for all of the catholics who wanted

00:20:08.860 to take the throne over from henry like secret hq for catholic um revolutionaries because did i

00:20:17.120 mention margaret was super catholic she was super catholic matthew super catholic they were not a

00:20:23.440 fan of henry's whole anglican situation and they wanted to make england catholic again henry found

00:20:29.980 out about the secret catholic hq and you'd think he would third time's the charm throw her in jail

00:20:35.920 he didn't but what he did was maybe worse he officially excluded her and her children and

00:20:43.340 her descendants from the line of succession forever and then he died so there's no takesy

00:20:48.520 backsies so this means that her so darnley for instance was officially according to these

00:20:56.880 paperwork like not in the line of succession which again becomes an issue later on with

00:21:00.900 married queen of scots but that's not what we're talking about so margaret would have been really 1.00

00:21:06.180 mad about that because all she wanted was power for herself and her children she was dealt another

00:21:11.140 big blow when her horrible father archibald douglas legendary horrible person made the decision

00:21:18.240 to disinherit her as well because he was mad at matthew for whatever man business so margaret was

00:21:25.840 now not eligible to inherit any of her family's land in scotland and she also was no longer in

00:21:31.760 line to the throne of england and she was now poor she took a little road trip in 1550 you know just

00:21:39.880 to clear her head she hung out with marie de guise who was the at this point the dowager queen of

00:21:46.660 scotland as she had married who to be margaret's half-brother james the fifth marie de guise very

00:21:56.700 cool person basically she's just a cool tall french woman margaret wanted to hang out with

00:22:00.580 her in scotland so i'm sure they drank some wine and said many just got some emotional real talk

00:22:06.220 about how shitty things were for them being these really smart and capable women trapped in a series

00:22:11.180 of ridiculous wars being thrown by impulsive men with half their intelligence i think that'd be a 1.00

00:22:16.080 cool movie the time the two of those ladies hung out anyway 1555 Margaret had another son so she

00:22:23.700 named the son Charles and all she could do was hang out with her babies and bide her time until 1.00

00:22:29.260 she was able to scheme more actively just kind of wait for the political situation to get

00:22:33.960 better more in her favor so things got a bit better for her when Edward VI Henry VIII's 0.50

00:22:45.420 son died and margaret's old friend mary took over as queen mary the first not only was mary her

00:22:53.200 cousin in childhood slash teenage years bff but she was also catholic which margaret was all about

00:22:58.920 mary invited margaret to come live with her at royal court like when they were princesses

00:23:03.240 together but now like you know years later older wiser etc and at this point margaret

00:23:10.320 Margaret was seen probably as Mary's heir because she was Catholic because Mary hadn't had any

00:23:17.820 children and because Elizabeth, Mary's half-sister, was still technically illegitimate and also

00:23:23.300 Protestant. So Margaret was just like doing great. It's starting to look like she might finally

00:23:28.720 fulfill her goal of becoming the queen. But then again things took a turn through no fault of her

00:23:37.300 own. Mary passed away in 1558 without any children, and she named Elizabeth as her heir.

00:23:44.520 Margaret was given the honor of being chief mourner at Mary's funeral, but obviously that

00:23:50.420 wasn't exactly the inheritance she'd been hoping to receive, e.g. she wanted to become the queen.

00:23:57.760 So with Elizabeth being the queen and making England Protestant again, Margaret just kind of 0.90

00:24:03.480 like backed out of there and headed back to her home in the countryside to again turn it into hq 0.87

00:24:09.320 for catholics who wanted to overthrow the monarchy but elizabeth was onto this she knew

00:24:15.040 what was going on she sent spies up to keep tabs on what margaret and the catholics were doing

00:24:19.320 elizabeth also had spies in scotland reporting back to her what matthew margaret's husband who

00:24:25.560 was in scotland at this point for scheming reasons was up to and through these spies elizabeth found

00:24:31.220 out that both margaret and matthew were scheming against her and so matthew was thrown in the tower

00:24:35.760 of london and margaret was placed under house arrest so in terms of our women in towers and

00:24:41.740 the assholes who sent them there just to to keep track so margaret had been sent to the tower of 0.96

00:24:46.980 london twice both times by the eighth and now she's in house arrest because of elizabeth the 0.98

00:24:53.420 first it seems like during this time of house arrest margaret finally accepted

00:24:57.880 the question of her own legitimacy like the fact that henry had made her illegitimate meant she

00:25:05.420 could never be queen and so she just devoted herself entirely on her children especially

00:25:10.700 her older son darnley to try and make them be kings instead so it's a very like matilda-esque

00:25:20.820 moment where it's just like okay if i can't be queen i'm gonna do everything i can to make my

00:25:25.160 son be king after me and so that's what she started doing and her plan was to marry Darnley

00:25:33.180 to Mary Queen of Scots so as I've mentioned a few times I'm gonna eventually do a multi-part

00:25:41.080 episode or season probably about Mary Queen of Scots because there's a lot to talk about there

00:25:45.600 but what you need to know for this story so Margaret Douglas's mother was Margaret Tudor

00:25:52.060 and margaret tudor was married to king james of scotland and then oh god this is so

00:26:00.580 so margaret tudor had kind of two husbands and she had children with each husband

00:26:06.300 margaret tudor's children with james became that's mary queen of scots that's the next

00:26:12.460 that's a descendant from that line at this point and then margaret tudor's children with archibald

00:26:16.940 douglas that's margaret douglas so there's kind of two lines of people so if you're like wait

00:26:22.040 doesn't that make Darnley and Mary Queen of Scots like half first cousins or something like yes

00:26:27.520 yes it does they are incredibly closely related and that's part of why they would be such a threat

00:26:32.840 because if they're combined when they put the two relatives together then they've got like a really

00:26:38.480 powerful claim to the throne so what Margaret Douglas wanted to do is to marry her son Darnley

00:26:46.040 to his cousin Mary Queen of Scots so that they could be king and queen of England slash Scotland 1.00

00:26:51.220 And that would allow Margaret to just slide in as like king's mother, which would be maybe a powerful role. 0.99

00:26:57.160 Lots of other people had had that position before, and that would be a good amount of power for her.

00:27:02.740 And so she was successful.

00:27:06.900 So Darnley and Mary, Queen of Scots, got married.

00:27:10.160 But because Elizabeth knew that Margaret Douglas had been one of the people who was making this happen,

00:27:17.000 Elizabeth threw Margaret back into her home away from home, the Tower of London.

00:27:21.220 so this is the fourth her fourth time being sent to prison although one of them is just a house

00:27:27.840 arrest i mean at this point you would think there's like margaret douglas suite already

00:27:32.240 prepared with all of her favorite toiletries because he's just there so often but here's

00:27:38.400 the problem that is so often the problem with these very ambitious women who work really hard 0.96

00:27:43.120 to get their sons to be the king is so often their sons are just useless like darnley was 0.87

00:27:49.900 so he got himself blown up long story um it kind of looked like mary queen of scots had maybe been 0.89

00:27:58.760 the one to blow him up margaret believed that literally like he the house he was living in

00:28:06.120 like blew up and his body was found dead there and then people thought mary queen of scots had

00:28:10.940 done it margaret was like oh my god is that what happened so she sided against mary queen of scots

00:28:18.580 at this point I don't know if she meant it or not but she's like Queen Elizabeth I totally support 0.75

00:28:23.560 you and I think Mary Queen of Scots is horrible and Elizabeth was like that's what I want to hear

00:28:28.260 and so she released Margaret from prison and suddenly we've got like a unexpected alliance

00:28:33.720 Elizabeth and Margaret who are what they'd be their cousins they're like first cousins so the

00:28:41.800 two of them teamed up against Mary Queen of Scots who is at this point on the run for the charges of

00:28:47.000 blowing up her husband darnley mary queen of scots abdicated from being the queen of scots

00:28:54.100 leaving her and darnley's son james is the new baby king of scotland so this is i mean for margaret

00:29:01.980 okay news like yes her son was blown up but now her grandson is baby king of scots because the

00:29:10.860 baby couldn't rule obviously being a baby the baby king needed a regent and so margaret got her

00:29:18.640 husband matthew to be the regent there for a while and suddenly after so many decades of so

00:29:23.440 much scheming margaret was at least adjacent to power in the sense of she was the grandmother of

00:29:29.540 the scottish king but of course that lasted like five minutes because that's just how her life is

00:29:35.960 going and has always been going so her husband Matthew was killed during an uprising in Scotland

00:29:41.300 and Margaret at this point was like was Mary Queen of Scots responsible for Darnley's death

00:29:47.300 and once she started thinking this through she noticed that actually it seemed pretty obvious

00:29:53.380 that Mary Queen of Scots had been framed for the murder and so Margaret switched sides again

00:29:58.260 and decided to support Mary Queen of Scots but of course she couldn't let Elizabeth know because

00:30:03.980 elizabeth and mary queen of scots were against each other at this point so margaret played both 0.87

00:30:09.280 sides for a while gently suggesting to elizabeth that maybe mary queen of scots might not be 0.75

00:30:14.360 totally guilty on her way to visit her grandson the baby king of scots

00:30:18.680 margaret took a detour to go and visit mary queen of scots at the home of their mutual friend

00:30:25.060 bess of hardwick and this is a whole thing so margaret just like headed off like i'm just gonna

00:30:31.640 to go hang out with best of hard work for a minute no big deal she brought her son charles with her 0.96

00:30:37.840 who was isn't that interesting she called her son charles and that was the name of her second 0.85

00:30:43.760 howard almost would be husband anyway her like teenage son charles came along with her best of 0.99

00:30:50.280 hard work's daughter elizabeth was there and when you know those two crazy teens fell in love with 0.77

00:30:55.140 each other and got married what a wild coincidence that this was also a helpful political alliance 1.00

00:31:01.880 for margaret like what are the odds that this accident would happen you'd almost think she 1.00

00:31:06.680 engineered the whole thing and you'd be right because she totally did she wanted this marriage 1.00

00:31:12.120 for her husband charles so elizabeth in her trademark way found out about a teen marriage 1.00

00:31:19.420 and flip the fuck out because she just didn't like young love and yet again sent margaret douglas to 1.00

00:31:31.060 her personal suite in the tower of london this is her fifth fourth time there fifth arrest 0.99

00:31:35.940 so i like this story for this season of the podcast because it's not just women sent to

00:31:40.520 towers it's like women sent to towers repeatedly it just like kept getting freed 0.62

00:31:46.360 but anyway somehow elizabeth just couldn't stay mad at margaret and she released her after a

00:31:53.720 pretty short stay margaret's son charles and his wife elizabeth cavendish had a baby at around this

00:32:00.220 time a girl who they named arbella stewart there's a episode of the noble blood podcast

00:32:08.340 all about Arbella Stewart whose story is also real interesting uh Charles died shortly after that

00:32:17.520 and then Elizabeth Cavendish daughter-in-law moved in with Margaret and the two of them

00:32:23.120 lived together with baby Arbella presumably Margaret just coaching them all on like how

00:32:27.640 to be a good schemer and how to ensure that somehow this little girl could become queen of 0.94

00:32:32.420 England one day and so baby Arbella's claim would be through Margaret Douglas because like tracing

00:32:41.100 back to Margaret Tudor effectively so they this is her new plan she's like well Darnley got blown

00:32:46.620 up Charles is dead her only remaining sort of descendant to try and make be the king or queen

00:32:54.260 is baby Arbella so that was what Margaret was focusing on now but she was not doing great

00:33:00.580 financially from the whole having been disinherited situation and when she died

00:33:07.740 two years after Arbella's birth she was a pauper she had basically no money but still Margaret

00:33:17.020 Douglas was given a grand burial in Westminster Abbey as befits the daughter of a queen the cousin

00:33:22.800 of a queen and the grandmother of a king she was buried in the same grave as her son Charles

00:33:28.940 note so what did she die of she probably just died of various oldie time diseases but there's

00:33:38.060 a rumor that continues that elizabeth had her actually poisoned to death i love this rumor

00:33:43.340 because i always love it when it's more scandalous and the reason why people think

00:33:48.320 this is because a few days before margaret died she'd had dinner with robert dudley elizabeth's

00:33:54.300 dirtbag boyfriend a man who was already suspected of having murdered some other people so it seems

00:34:01.240 possible that she was poisoned to death just for constant interfering and elizabeth was just tired

00:34:06.920 of sending her to jail or whatever i forgot to say at the very beginning so my sources for this

00:34:12.360 were there are a couple of biographies of margaret douglas there's one called so high a blood the

00:34:19.600 story of margaret douglas the tutor the time forgot by morgan ring as well as the lost tutor

00:34:25.020 princess the life of lady margaret douglas by allison weir margaret herself was actually a

00:34:31.580 poet she had numerous works dedicated she wrote numerous works poems dedicated to her first

00:34:38.880 fiancee thomas howard which so sad her poems are included along with works of other poets of the

00:34:45.700 era in a work that's called the Devonshire manuscript and now it is time to score Margaret

00:34:56.520 Douglas also she the only on-screen version of her that I am aware of is in the least the last

00:35:05.620 season of Rain the tv show that was on the CW a few years ago and is my favorite tv show of all

00:35:11.060 time and one of the reasons why i am as interested in mary queen of scots as i am anyway she appears

00:35:17.600 in that margaret douglas as darnley's scheming mother lady lennox other than that i think this

00:35:25.580 would be a great character to put in you know a stars tv show that sort of thing time to give

00:35:31.640 her some scoring and i feel like as opposed to many of the other people well several of the

00:35:38.980 other people this season so far she had more agency which means she was able to do more

00:35:45.220 scandalous stuff and also i forgot to mention she died age 62 in 1578 was older than some people

00:35:58.580 that we've talked about younger than some people so in terms of scandalousness if we're looking at

00:36:04.100 the juiciness of the scandals in which she got herself caught up in there are several

00:36:08.480 there is secretly getting engaged to the first howard and then falling in love with the second

00:36:13.920 howard being sent to jail twice her mother margaret tudor had a lot of scandaliciousness 1.00

00:36:20.080 going on so that just sort of like tendentially affected her as well um the fact that as a baby

00:36:25.060 she was like nabbed by her father the fact that she was hosting these soirees at catholic

00:36:31.940 rebels hq just she turned her house into that i i'm gonna give her a seven for scandaliciousness 1.00

00:36:40.620 because i mean two two love affairs that sent her to the tower pretty impressive scheminess i think 1.00

00:36:48.240 is really high because sometimes she got freed from the tower of london because just political 1.00

00:36:56.300 situation changed but also i would think part of that is because of her own scheminess and trying 0.99

00:37:00.580 to find ways to clear her name like going all the way back to breaking up with with the first 1.00

00:37:06.000 Howard boy before he tragically died but then her ongoing scheminess like the Catholic HQ thing

00:37:12.260 the stuff with getting her son to marry Bess of Hardwick's daughter and then raising Arbella to

00:37:19.020 be the new queen like her scheminess I think is really really really really high this was

00:37:26.040 i'm gonna give her a nine for scheminess because she was unrelenting and also quite successful

00:37:33.760 with a lot of it her significance she is the grandmother of king james the sixth of scotland 0.99

00:37:42.360 first of england so she did manage to get darnley married to mary queen of scots and actually that

00:37:49.580 completely ruined mary queen of scots's life so she sort of her significance to history 1.00

00:37:54.400 she's not super well known like as a book title is called like the tutor the time for god but she 0.99

00:37:59.360 the stuff she did had like mega repercussions actually i'm gonna say a seven for significance 1.00

00:38:07.840 the sexism bonus now as per every woman we've talked about on this podcast obviously 1.00

00:38:14.240 living in this patriarchal society was detrimental to her like the fact that

00:38:19.140 you know what like henry the eighth got her was mad at her for getting these secret engagements

00:38:25.320 but then elizabeth was too so it's not it's not like men were mean to her and women were nice to

00:38:30.960 her it's just kind of like the whole society didn't let a young woman decide who they're

00:38:34.640 gonna marry but at the same time she wasn't charged with anything but then her fiance was

00:38:42.740 i mean things were generally the fact that she just couldn't choose who she could marry 1.00

00:38:47.060 sucked and that was part of sexism slash the patriarchy i just think in comparison to other 1.00

00:38:53.660 women who've talked about on this podcast how much was she fucked over by the sexism of her time 0.99

00:38:59.060 for sure she was but other people that was a greater proportion of their story so i'm just 1.00

00:39:03.380 gonna give her a five there so what does this add up to that's a 28 which means she's the highest 0.96

00:39:09.820 score so far this season if we're looking at who else got a 28 that's like cleopatra got a goddamn

00:39:16.740 28 like I love I love this for her I love that she's up there with this amount because 0.90

00:39:24.860 and getting a high score on the scandalous scale it's truly about you need to have a little bit

00:39:31.420 of everything or a lot of most of things and for her the significance combined with the scheminess

00:39:37.680 and the scandalousness like that just really took her over the top so that's our highest score

00:39:43.000 thus far this season we'll see where things go from here and then i'm going to give you my

00:39:50.140 recommendation of the week and it's sort of a two-part recommendation so i'm just finishing

00:39:58.100 reading this book that's really good that i really want to recommend to you that's called

00:40:01.160 luck of the titanic by stacy lee it's a young adult novel it just just came out in may early

00:40:09.460 may 2021 and it's about uh so it's partially inspired by the recent sort of discovery slash

00:40:19.540 mainstream sharing of the information that there were six chinese passengers on the titanic during

00:40:26.520 its ill-fated maiden voyage so there's uh and that's what this story is sort of imagining in

00:40:33.480 a historical fiction context so the the main character is a young woman who has to sneak on

00:40:39.640 the ship because of the chinese exclusion act chinese people aren't actually allowed to go

00:40:43.240 to the u.s but she's a trained acrobat and she wants to she finds out that the guy from

00:40:49.640 i forget ringling brothers circus is on the titanic and she wants to find him and impress

00:40:54.860 him to get a job with the circus it's just like a really there's so many good books for children

00:40:59.640 and for teenagers about imagining people in the titanic and just because every person on that

00:41:04.800 ship had their own interesting story but this has the i guess i'll call it a twist of having

00:41:11.100 just really learning more about the chinese people who were on the titanic and that's partially

00:41:16.540 inspired by the studies or the histories that have recently come out there's a documentary

00:41:21.380 called the six from executive producer james cameron so the six the untold story of the

00:41:27.340 titanic's chinese passengers and that is it started it's streamed i don't know you know

00:41:34.820 movies are so weird like where theaters open and stuff like that but it's um premiered in china

00:41:40.620 and presumably it'll be playing in lots of other places too because james cameron is involved in

00:41:45.540 it and i think it's so interesting to learn the story of the titanic is so well known to suddenly

00:41:51.780 have this new whole aspect of it to learn about and it sounds like the documentary gets into a

00:41:57.580 lot of the stuff that this book luck of the titanic does too luck of the titanic is a made-up

00:42:02.620 historical fiction novel but it talks about just what life was like for chinese people in

00:42:09.100 in england and in the u.s at this time instead of the history of chinese migration so anyway i

00:42:17.640 recommend this book and hopefully when the movie will be able to be watched in lots of places when

00:42:22.660 it comes out i'll put links to both of those things in the show notes for today and otherwise

00:42:28.060 thank you all for listening to this podcast it means a lot it would also mean a lot if you

00:42:34.100 if you haven't already would uh rate and or review this podcast on itunes or on um android or other

00:42:42.700 places it's just it's so helpful to so other people can like discover the podcast better

00:42:49.040 and also because I get these messages sometimes for people saying that I say like too much or

00:42:54.240 that I talk too fast and like whatever I have a tough skin it's cool but it'd be nice if there

00:42:59.060 was if you could drown those voices out with nice positive reviews which I assume if you listen to

00:43:04.440 the podcast to this point like you listen to me talk for like 40 minutes you're a fan and it'd be

00:43:10.400 cool so i'd appreciate that but also no pressure there's other ways to support the podcast so we

00:43:17.620 have merch it will be coming i will have some new merch for the women trapped in towers theme

00:43:23.620 coming out soon and that's at teespring.com slash stores slash vulgar history you can directly

00:43:30.000 support the podcast at patreon.com slash ann foster writer and the way that that works if

00:43:35.180 you haven't used patreon before is you can you just make a pledge of whatever amount per month

00:43:41.240 if you pledge i believe it's five dollars a month you get the access to all the previous bonus

00:43:46.340 episodes and also one new bonus episode per month which i really need to get around to doing don't

00:43:51.160 i the month of may is ending and i will do that i promise anyway so when you do that then you get

00:43:57.740 access to those and you can play those in your pod catcher as well if you just can't get enough

00:44:02.100 of me saying like all the time and there's also a website bookshop.org which a portion of the

00:44:12.660 money you spend there goes to independent bookstores so I really recommend that as a

00:44:16.720 place to to purchase books I have recently updated the lists I have there that showcase the books

00:44:22.520 that I've mentioned or suggested on this podcast so you can see where those books are and then you

00:44:28.380 can order them online it's just as easy as amazon but your soul feels a bit better about using it

00:44:34.000 your mind does and otherwise um you can follow us on instagram vulgar history pod on twitter at

00:44:41.940 vulgar history and if you want to send me an email for some reason it's at vulgar history pod

00:44:46.900 at gmail.com so i hope everybody's doing as well as anyone can be these days and i know that in

00:44:57.460 some places they've said that you can not wear a mask outside if you're vaccinated and stuff but

00:45:03.540 much in the same way that tits out is sort of a way of being not specifically a direction to like 0.98

00:45:11.900 literally have your tits out although if you want to power to you francis howard would love it 0.99

00:45:17.280 so when i say keep your masks on keep your tits out i mean like you can take off a mask if you 0.99

00:45:23.160 want you can put your tits in if you want but just like philosophically keep your mask on 1.00

00:45:30.100 and your tits out and i'll talk to you next time 1.00

00:45:32.520 the war is over and both sides lost kingdoms were 1.00

00:45:52.860 reduced to cinders and armies scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to

00:45:59.820 what's left of a broken world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadow

00:46:05.880 dark, the darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks

00:46:13.980 down in real time. And when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is

00:46:19.140 a brutal rules-light nightmare

00:46:21.040 with a story that emerges

00:46:22.900 organically based on the decisions

00:46:25.180 that the characters make. This is what it felt like

00:46:27.240 to play RPGs in the 80s, and

00:46:29.040 man, it is so good to be back.

00:46:31.160 Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge

00:46:33.220 into the shadow dark every Thursday

00:46:35.060 night at 8 p.m. Eastern on youtube.com

00:46:37.420 slash the glass cannon with the

00:46:39.000 podcast version dropping the next

00:46:41.280 day. See what everybody's talking about

00:46:43.140 and join us in the dark.

00:46:50.040 The world of Sonic the Hedgehog has been thrust into a not-so-dark, not-so-stormy, hard-boiled detective story that probably nobody saw coming.

00:47:02.260 Follow Sonic and the intrepid Chaotic's detective agency as they take on their biggest case yet.

00:47:09.080 This high-flying, action-packed adventure will take them across the world, fighting for every clue they can find.

00:47:16.300 It's one heck of a tale.

00:47:19.140 Which is good, because this story might be the only thing that can save their lives.

00:47:26.500 Well, if that's all, I can just dispose of you.

00:47:29.920 Wait, what?

00:47:34.200 All will be revealed in Sonic the Hedgehog Presents The Chaotix Case Files.

00:47:41.000 Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

00:47:43.720 The Chaotix are on the case.

00:47:49.140 There are vampires out there.

00:47:51.260 They walk among you, shoulder to shoulder, in the dark.

00:47:54.260 Heading to work, heading home, going to the bar.

00:47:56.800 It's a life just like anyone else's, and I have grown used to it.

00:48:01.060 To the darkness, to the moon, to the taste of blood on my tongue.

00:48:04.800 But vampires are dying out.

00:48:07.180 We are a fading kind, and I am the first one created in so long.

00:48:11.560 And that is a dangerous thing to be.

00:48:13.560 Those who came before me, elders of all stripes, they do not want to see our kind gone.

00:48:18.200 and they will do anything to keep their power.

00:48:21.300 And for myself and for Grace who created me,

00:48:23.940 that is a sword that hangs above our heads.

00:48:26.740 And the worst person of all carries our secret

00:48:29.280 and he will use it however he sees fit.

00:48:33.160 Who do you look to when things are at their darkest?

00:48:36.440 From the creators of Parkdale Haunt comes Woodbine,

00:48:38.900 a podcast about monsters, dreams, and changes,

00:48:42.100 those you want and those you never saw coming.

00:48:45.000 Season two arrives September 24th,

00:48:47.440 Distributed by Realm.

Vulgar History - May 26, 2021

Women Trapped In Towers, part 4： The Niece of Henry VIII

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