Witches of Scotland - ANNA BJÖRG - THE ICELAND MUSUEM OF WITCHCRAFT AND SORCERY

00:00:00.160 Hi, I'm Clare Mitchell QC. Welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:05.220 I'm a lawyer who specialises in miscarriage of justice cases and we're bringing you this podcast

00:00:10.120 because we want to tell you about the women who were accused, prosecuted, convicted

00:00:15.240 and ultimately executed as witches in Scotland.

00:00:18.780 I'm Zoe Vendetotsi and I'm a writer who's always had an interest in the witches

00:00:22.780 and I feel that this dark mark against Scotland needs a reckoning.

00:00:26.500 The campaign Witches of Scotland wants three things.

00:00:29.600 Firstly, a pardon for all those convicted of witchcraft.

00:00:33.240 Secondly, an apology for all those who were accused as witches.

00:00:37.420 And finally, a national monument in recognition of all those who were affected by this terrible miscarriage of justice.

00:00:44.420 Over the forthcoming weeks, we'll be talking to a whole host of experts about the history and the modern day connections to the witches of Scotland.

00:00:55.500 Hello and welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:58.620 this week we're on episode 32 we're leaving scotland to go and speak to an expert from

00:01:04.740 iceland but more of that anon as they say and claire and are going to talk about a couple of

00:01:10.420 things that have come up this week in our topical news round i'm not going to let that go i really

00:01:15.080 like that as a section so in our in our topical news round round up round up of the news that's

00:01:23.240 happened topically claire we have been contacted by a listener haven't we we have we've been

00:01:29.560 contacted we're very grateful to him um to matthew bridston he is a listener from the northwest of

00:01:36.940 england and he is currently in fact doing a master's on the pendle witch trials and he actually

00:01:44.740 said that our podcast or our campaign was the inspiration for his topic so we were really

00:01:50.960 We were really delighted by that. But he got in contact with us to mention something which was

00:01:57.520 really very important and we're really, really glad that he did. He brought to our attention

00:02:02.340 that whilst we spoke about Tituba and mentioned Tituba in the body of the podcast, when we were

00:02:10.440 reading out the names of those people who were convicted and executed, and also some of the

00:02:17.140 people who were accused her name didn't appear and was concerned obviously that that name wasn't

00:02:25.460 mentioned as one of the people on the list and and rightly so yeah i went back and had a look now

00:02:31.560 i hold my hand up here because it was me that read out the list of the names in this of the

00:02:35.960 commemorative part last week and i also hold my hand up for being not in any way i have to always

00:02:42.980 say this an expert on history of witch trials i think both our hands are well held up on all these

00:02:49.180 points so so because i'm not an academic scholar for that area anyway i reserve my maybe i am a

00:02:56.040 scholar in other areas i'm just not telling you but for in this area i'm not an academic scholar

00:03:00.500 i looked up wikipedia okay now obviously i should always mention the caveat that it's wikipedia and

00:03:07.440 that is that is it's a marvelous resource but obviously it's it's laid out in a different way

00:03:12.120 for different topics and what I actually looked at if you go and have a look at the page that's

00:03:16.320 dealing with the Salem witch trials there's an enormous amount of names on that page and there's

00:03:20.700 a big table at the end of it that gives all the different areas and what I read out I focused

00:03:26.140 particularly on those who had been executed or that had been born or died in prison and then I

00:03:32.800 read out a bit about people that had escaped what I didn't read out and where Tituba's name would

00:03:37.480 appear is in the confessed and or accused others section of the table on wikipedia because along

00:03:44.680 with it looks like about 20 other people tituba falls under that heading because like many people

00:03:49.680 that were accused of witchcraft she ended up confessing and she accused a couple of other

00:03:55.600 people as well and we know now obviously that that didn't mean that there was any guilt necessarily

00:04:01.440 it was that people were forced into it and that people were you know sleep deprived and or tortured

00:04:06.320 physically and you know in other ways and i imagine tituba's situation with her being an

00:04:11.080 enslaved woman would have been particularly precarious and would have been you know should

00:04:15.280 have had even less rights i mean doesn't even it's just too awful so i didn't read out the

00:04:21.020 confessed and or accused other section and i didn't read out the accused but survived section

00:04:25.920 mostly because so many people were accused i mean there's over a hundred between those two sections

00:04:32.400 there's over 100 people that were accused but survived or that were confessed and or accused

00:04:36.900 others so I just didn't read out all those names but Tituba is a very very interesting person

00:04:42.580 I think for several reasons for me as a writer and reader Tituba is really interesting because

00:04:48.920 her otherness the fact that she was not white and the fact that she was an enslaved person

00:04:54.940 meant that she has been of particular interest to people that have then fictionalized the story

00:04:59.880 so in my mind I've got quite a strong picture of her the fictional version of her because of the

00:05:06.340 crucible and because of other sort of fictional depictions which does her obviously a disservice

00:05:12.000 and I think what's interesting about this is that one of our key aims and the reason that we do the

00:05:17.440 commemorative portion of the podcast is to say this was this person it wasn't sundry witches it

00:05:24.660 wasn't just a woman this was you know and then the person's name and Claire and I we obviously

00:05:29.880 really important. That's very important, which is why we read out people's names each week.

00:05:35.040 So I would just like to mention Tituba here. We don't even know if that was her real name.

00:05:41.260 We don't know where she actually came from. There's various different sort of theories about

00:05:46.120 who she was, where she came from. We don't even know if she was African or if she was

00:05:50.760 an indigenous American. We don't really know anything very much about her. And it's become

00:05:55.540 obscured obviously over the years but I think it is absolutely worth mentioning and one of the

00:06:00.240 things Claire you looked up sort of the legal angle about this about what happened to Tichuba

00:06:04.200 didn't you? Yeah I did I looked up and from what we can find and I should say I agree with you on

00:06:10.080 the various stories behind Tichuba there are as many websites as there are stories offering

00:06:16.480 different ideas about where she came from etc and there's no clarity on it as far as I can see

00:06:23.120 which is a great shame. Tituba, as we know, confessed. She had confessions. There are parts

00:06:29.220 of her confession that were available. She named at least two other women. It is thought that she

00:06:35.440 was beaten into confessing. That appears to be a constant theme through the various websites

00:06:42.040 that we've seen. So rather than torture by sleep deprivation or some of the methods that we had,

00:06:47.880 it appeared that beating would have been the preferred method and again I don't know if

00:06:53.000 that's actually known or whether or not that's just understood as a generality that that would

00:06:56.800 have happened. What we do know getting on to some more secure footing on the legal front

00:07:02.500 on May the 9th 1692 she was put to a grand jury. Now I think a grand jury is absolutely a fascinating

00:07:10.640 thing it's being judged by your peers to ascertain whether or not there's enough information for you

00:07:19.220 to go to trial it's that's what that means in tv programs when they say right is there enough to

00:07:24.340 put them in front of the grand jury yeah so that that's sort of like a gateway before like a proper

00:07:29.340 yeah if the grand jury say yes you can go on to trial put very very generally and so is that

00:07:36.700 Sorry to sidetrack slightly here.

00:07:38.960 Who's on the grand jury then?

00:07:40.760 Is it lawyers?

00:07:41.840 No, no, it certainly was then.

00:07:44.540 I don't know whether lawyers can be on it now,

00:07:46.100 but it was a jury of your peers.

00:07:49.040 So just as we are called for jury service,

00:07:51.280 I say as we, I can't be called for jury service,

00:07:53.260 but as one is called for jury service.

00:07:55.280 Mere mortals, such as myself, might be called.

00:07:59.220 And is there a judge then in charge of that

00:08:01.500 who makes the final decision?

00:08:03.040 No, the judge is in charge of the proceedings,

00:08:05.100 but the decision on whether to put someone forward for trial

00:08:09.280 is taken by the grand jury themselves.

00:08:12.860 I think the term grand jury is something where you can also have a petite jury.

00:08:18.240 I think I might be making that up.

00:08:20.880 I can definitely say that American jurisprudence is not one that I've done any research on,

00:08:25.120 but there's something in the back of my head that makes me think

00:08:28.200 that there is a phrase called petite jury as well as grand.

00:08:32.460 Oh, yes, OK.

00:08:33.560 So once again, using the Google, I have looked it up as we've been speaking and there's a court, I'm looking at us.courts.gov.

00:08:44.100 What's the difference between a petite jury and a grand jury?

00:08:47.320 So I suppose we would call it like petite and grand, perhaps that's the way it was.

00:08:52.420 A petite jury is a trial for civil and criminal cases.

00:08:55.900 The petite jury listens to the evidence presented by both parties during a trial and returns a verdict.

00:09:00.900 a grand jury does not determine guilt or innocence

00:09:03.720 but whether there is probable cause to believe

00:09:05.880 that a crime was committed

00:09:08.040 so it appears

00:09:09.860 rather strangely, you'd think it's the other way

00:09:12.140 around, a grand jury

00:09:13.760 determines whether or not there's probable

00:09:16.100 cause to believe a crime was committed

00:09:17.960 and a petite jury

00:09:19.460 is a trial in a civil or criminal case

00:09:22.420 so a petite jury

00:09:23.960 is what we think of as 0.97

00:09:26.060 an ordinary jury

00:09:27.340 I would have thought that's strange

00:09:30.160 because we'd think the grand jury would be the jury

00:09:32.540 that would decide the evidence in the case 1.00

00:09:35.520 and the petite jury would be the case.

00:09:37.800 Anyway, I digress.

00:09:39.460 So on 9th May 1692, a grand jury declined to indict.

00:09:44.040 So it found on Ticherva's behalf

00:09:46.720 that there was not probable cause to believe

00:09:49.660 that a crime had been committed.

00:09:52.640 Apparently, they wrote on the legal documentation 0.76

00:09:55.520 that they were given the phrase ignoramus.

00:09:58.680 now we use the word ignoramus

00:10:01.180 we use, I don't think I've ever used it

00:10:03.420 but I understand it can be used 0.99

00:10:05.220 to mean stupid 0.98

00:10:06.200 I've used it 1.00

00:10:08.440 to my children

00:10:10.520 both to their face and behind their backs

00:10:12.980 yeah

00:10:13.860 I believe I was called that

00:10:17.160 repeatedly by my mother

00:10:18.460 you're passing down a family tradition

00:10:21.360 and that's lovely

00:10:22.160 rudeness, yeah, past remarkability

00:10:24.720 but I think in this particular case

00:10:27.080 writing ignoramus on the paperwork means that she was ignorant of the charge as in she wasn't a witch 0.98

00:10:34.220 so right okay so not not so much maybe um she wasn't ignorant but she was incompetent no it 0.98

00:10:41.800 was like okay ignoramus it means she was ignorant of the charge as in it wasn't known to her as in 0.81

00:10:48.980 there wasn't sufficient evidence so it's really really important because it shows even at that 0.61

00:10:54.320 time that 1692 that a jury of her peers decided that despite her confession evidence there wasn't

00:11:04.800 probable cause to indict her for being a witch that's interesting because she eventually got

00:11:12.820 out of jail so her and i hate to use this word her owner which was samuel paris refused to pay

00:11:20.080 her jail fees and eventually in april of 1693 she was sold on to an unknown person for the price of

00:11:27.540 her jail fees apparently it's just horrifying yeah i mean she remained an enslaved person

00:11:33.340 obviously while she was in custody and she remained an enslaved person when she was out

00:11:38.560 of custody what we also discussed with matthew in emails was that he had done some research

00:11:44.780 to find out whether or not she had been pardoned and he said that he couldn't find anywhere whether

00:11:52.080 or not she had been pardoned and that is correct and the reason for that is that she was never

00:11:57.780 convicted so as we've discussed before in relation to our campaign we want a pardon for those that

00:12:06.560 were convicted, an apology for all those that were accused. So in the case of Tituba, she

00:12:14.440 wouldn't fit under a pardon because although she was kept in custody, although she was

00:12:18.100 accused, she was never convicted. Therefore, that's why you cannot see her being pardoned

00:12:24.660 anywhere. I also understand from the reading that we've done, and thank you to Matthew

00:12:29.880 again for providing some of that reading to us, that when there were reparations to be

00:12:35.180 made nobody got any reparations because she didn't have family or perhaps family couldn't

00:12:42.120 be traced so whilst other people received reparations for family members who had suffered

00:12:48.600 or for example who had had to pay their way out of custody as we there doesn't appear to have been

00:12:56.660 any reparations made to either tituba herself or the descendants of tituba and also probably

00:13:03.940 tituba didn't have any lands or anything that she might have lost yeah absolutely as an enslaved

00:13:09.880 person i do not think that that that would have been the case so we dedicate this particular

00:13:16.760 week's podcast to remembering tituba rather than name other names we thought it would be a nice

00:13:23.420 thing to do to just remember her on this day and the no doubt as you see there's possibly almost

00:13:29.420 a hundred other people who were accused who spent time in custody and who were released at a later

00:13:36.280 stage but suffered greatly during that period of time that they would have been accused in custody

00:13:41.660 it's useful I think to mention that and then to think about the idea of remembering and of

00:13:46.880 memorials because that's something you and I've been talking about in the last wee while again

00:13:49.800 is about how we would foresee a memorial now you and I were chatting earlier and you were saying

00:13:55.300 that of course we've said repeatedly that it's not something that we would want to be sort of

00:13:59.780 the bosses of you know we'd we've no interest in drawing out a sculpture and then making it

00:14:04.680 ourselves or anything i mean we of course do but we think it'd be a very very unwise idea to let

00:14:09.040 us in charge yeah well i don't know i think we could do quite a nice job actually but um but i

00:14:14.660 think it's the sort of thing that really if we're looking for a state monument it wouldn't be up to

00:14:18.520 us like that would be up to how the state kind of first saw that i suppose but one thing that we've

00:14:23.400 talked about is rather than a statue a different idea haven't we claire yes well just the more

00:14:29.900 we've been doing the podcast the more we've been speaking to people from other countries

00:14:33.920 the more i'm thinking that the best way to memorialize to have a state sponsored place

00:14:42.080 for people to go and remember these people is a museum of accused people people that were accused

00:14:50.220 of witchcraft so I don't like saying the phrase I suppose museum of witchcraft because that would

00:14:55.480 be what it would be shortened to but it's really a memorial to all those people that were accused

00:15:01.420 of witchcraft and I think it'd be more a museum of of the witch trials yes rather than witchcraft

00:15:07.640 exactly yeah what what I wouldn't be particularly interested in would be it being something that's

00:15:14.480 different i mean for me my motivation with our campaign is very much about education and

00:15:21.600 recognizing that people were accused of something and it was wrong and you know looking at that

00:15:26.020 i'm much less interested completely respectful of it but much less interested in the notion of sort

00:15:33.320 of modern day being a witch i think that's cool if you're a witch that's totally cool it's up to you

00:15:38.820 and i would defend your right to you know have religion or not religion or spirituality or not

00:15:44.120 have it I don't it's really it's none of my business but what I would want to make sure was

00:15:48.920 that the museum was really about people being able to kind of move through and understand this was

00:15:53.140 the time that it was in this is why it happened these are these different sort of areas and then

00:15:58.520 thinking about the modern day ramifications of that and the modern day accusations of witchcraft

00:16:05.020 and really looking at the way that humans need to be better humans to other humans. That exact way

00:16:09.780 has been done really sensitively in salem they've gone about it that way it's not about you know

00:16:16.120 pointy hats and those sorts of aspects of it you know we'd really have to be careful of that as

00:16:23.460 society because like look at that recent issue that we've talked about a couple of episodes ago

00:16:27.620 about one of our national bodies you know sort of almost getting a kind of a silly punient little

00:16:34.800 thrill from the idea of witches and about the man that was attached to the witch trials in Scotland

00:16:41.240 and using that as a kind of a marketing ploy it's just too it's lazy and I just I'm uncomfortable

00:16:47.120 with it so I would want to make sure that a museum was really thoughtful and really backed up by

00:16:52.920 research absolutely I just it's something to think about I mean we've spoken to Salem

00:16:57.460 we are just about to speak to a person who is a curator of a museum in a small country

00:17:06.920 called iceland where there are far i love the way you said that i do you'll have never heard

00:17:14.780 of this country it's called iceland it's not a supermarket it's an actual place that you can go

00:17:21.000 to when you could travel again i was thinking should i not spoil should i not spoil the surprise

00:17:26.500 I love that we do this we do this every week that we do the chatty bit and we we both try not to

00:17:31.660 mention the person's name as if it's like the bit in stars in your eyes where then they go

00:17:36.840 tonight Matthew I will be the witchcraft museum in Iceland I love I love that it's just just the

00:17:43.620 sort of the level of surprise that we're going to there but what I was thinking was that Iceland

00:17:51.000 is such a small country and just because it's such a small country it still manages to have 0.97

00:17:57.180 a museum that's dedicated in its case I think it is dedicated to witchcraft so I think it's

00:18:04.280 broader than the witch trials yeah but it's still there as a resource where people can learn about

00:18:09.560 the witch trials and learn about what happened again using as best we can as the best of our

00:18:15.360 facilities google the population of iceland is 356 000 approximately are you serious yes

00:18:25.220 that's how many people live in iceland am i serious i might not be serious but google

00:18:31.100 certainly is yeah capital rekjavik population 356 991 and that was just in rekjavik and that

00:18:39.280 was in 2019 no that's the population of Iceland. Shush now I'm shocked by that how many people

00:18:45.780 live in Scotland? I think about six million hang on. No way they've got a disproportionate amount

00:18:53.160 of murders in Iceland judging by the level of crime fiction that comes out there. I think that's

00:18:59.520 because of the Scandi Noir. Denmark's the same Denmark per capita there's a really low number

00:19:05.720 of serious crimes

00:19:07.840 but it's really bizarre

00:19:09.360 that it's an absolute hub

00:19:11.280 for criminality

00:19:12.640 there's somebody out there

00:19:14.460 there's another master's thesis

00:19:16.380 in that I'm sure

00:19:17.320 why?

00:19:18.240 I mean Scotland obviously

00:19:19.540 isn't a very big country

00:19:20.680 I mean it's obviously

00:19:21.460 not as small as Iceland

00:19:22.280 but I mean like looking at

00:19:23.360 our extremely popular

00:19:25.960 Scottish

00:19:26.780 what's it called

00:19:27.580 tartan noir

00:19:28.320 you know that's huge

00:19:29.700 it's in no way representative

00:19:31.140 I don't think of the amount

00:19:32.260 of murders that actually

00:19:33.080 occur in Scotland

00:19:33.800 but I'm really shocked

00:19:35.420 at how small Iceland is.

00:19:37.860 Yeah, well, you're making me doubt myself

00:19:39.780 and now I'm going to Google it again.

00:19:40.960 Well, there's a thought for today.

00:19:42.400 Thanks, Claire.

00:19:43.840 Every day's a school day with you.

00:19:46.220 Every day's a school day with Google,

00:19:47.840 I think we'll find.

00:19:48.740 It's not me that knows it at all.

00:19:50.540 I hope that's right.

00:19:51.580 But yeah, if not,

00:19:53.060 what will happen is

00:19:54.180 if we keep getting things wrong,

00:19:55.700 our news roundup's going to become

00:19:56.960 increasingly longer

00:19:58.060 as we explain all the things

00:20:00.100 we got wrong in the last podcast.

00:20:02.480 That's okay.

00:20:03.160 I'm happy to put my hand up

00:20:04.400 when I make a mistake.

00:20:05.420 That's all right. I think that's a very important thing that I have learned as a teacher and as a parent is when you get something wrong, there's no shame in saying you got something wrong and saying, yeah, you know, we're here to learn. That's our human aspect, I think.

00:20:19.200 you know i absolutely totally agree in our job particularly when people are young in it there's

00:20:24.940 a pressure to be all knowing it's entirely unrealistic and i think it's really really

00:20:30.000 important that people realize that you just know as much as you know and if you don't know something

00:20:34.560 then you can learn it you know yeah i think so i think that's how cool how cool is that the fact

00:20:40.040 that you can just keep learning stuff i'd hate it to be the sort of person that just kind of went

00:20:44.000 yeah i know it all i mean i do i do act like i know all but i know that i don't actually know

00:20:47.840 all so it's good to learn something here I'm really glad to learn that about Iceland today

00:20:51.900 oh look at that seamless and now we head to Iceland

00:20:57.740 we are delighted to introduce Anna Bjork who is the curator of the witchcraft and sorcery

00:21:13.320 Museum in Iceland. Anna, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

00:21:19.660 Not at all. We are delighted. We found out about you. I found out about you because we saw a post

00:21:26.580 on Facebook where I think you had said that you had given a talk on various witchcraft matters,

00:21:35.300 including the setting of fires. And then the next day you had come to work and your car had gone on

00:21:42.040 fire yes yeah it's true story yes and now during during covid we are not so busy so i've been

00:21:50.520 using my time for other things and i've been giving some talks uh online live talks on the

00:21:56.640 on our facebook and instagram page and uh yes and i had this one talk about punishment for

00:22:02.980 witchcraft in iceland and then mainly talking about burnings and then when i arrived to work

00:22:08.160 the day after my car it comes steams from my car and then suddenly I see there's a fire in it and

00:22:14.720 it just burns there in a few minutes that's frightening that's really frightening yeah and

00:22:21.160 the people the townspeople of course all came with the camera taking pictures and then we're

00:22:25.940 making jokes oh they're trying to burn the wits and I was like yes I just escaped well I'm very

00:22:33.560 glad that you're well and you're here to speak to us today. Can you tell us about the witchcraft

00:22:41.400 in Iceland? What's the history? What's your story of witchcraft in Iceland?

00:22:47.480 Well, the witch craze was here in the 17th century. It's a bit later than Europe

00:22:53.160 and it is actually a short period. When the burnings were, it was just 30 years,

00:22:59.240 the burning so it's from the middle of the 17th century until the end yes the witchcraft cases

00:23:07.740 actually are about 170 cases and and the burnings were 21 burnings but you know the witchcraft in

00:23:17.960 iceland we have been like it is like i would call it more like a sorcery something that superstitions

00:23:24.820 and something people used when they were facing their hard life here.

00:23:31.400 It was a very difficult life with harsh conditions where the weather really controlled your outcome.

00:23:38.760 Maybe your animals would die and you wanted to be safe when you go on the sea on a small boat to fish.

00:23:44.560 I think we could call it kind of also superstition.

00:23:47.320 You want to have this simple, you want to recite certain words to make you safe.

00:23:52.500 or you know we also have stories of kind of bad magic too so i would say like witchcraft magic

00:24:00.320 it's a white and black you know it's not you know the black magic is and if you want to cause harm

00:24:06.640 you want to kill someone wake up the dad we have many like folklore stories that they're waking up

00:24:11.880 the dad and sending them to their enemies to cause harm or something and then the dad or the ghost

00:24:18.080 we call it the ghost he will maybe follow that family for many generations or so we have these

00:24:24.440 stories and then we also the good magic is like to heal to protect you just you know so the sheep

00:24:31.500 will have more lamps and uh you know for positive positive reasons as well as negative reasons

00:24:38.420 yeah yeah and in the witchcraft cases in iceland if you uh admit it that you own some kind of runes

00:24:46.280 or magical staves or that you have done something like that

00:24:50.320 or recited certain words that seemed a bit more like witchcraft,

00:24:55.220 then it was enough proof that you were guilty,

00:24:58.480 even though what they were doing was not doing anything bad.

00:25:01.760 I think that's like Scotland.

00:25:03.640 Scotland didn't differentiate between what you might say

00:25:07.620 were supposed to have done good things or bad things.

00:25:10.780 In Scotland, they just said, it's witchcraft.

00:25:13.840 Yeah, exactly.

00:25:14.420 If people were alleged to have done good things or bad things,

00:25:18.160 they just covered the whole thing with witchcraft.

00:25:22.280 Yeah, and I think the reason for that is because they believed

00:25:25.640 that if you were able to do some witchcraft,

00:25:27.920 you kind of sold your soul to the demon,

00:25:30.060 that they will be a demon or the devil was kind of part of you.

00:25:34.600 And that's the reason for the burnings that burned people

00:25:38.400 because that was a way to free the people from this demon

00:25:42.940 to get rid of the magic, the sorcery that was in them, you know.

00:25:46.760 So that's why they had to burn it, to burn the person completely.

00:25:51.360 There's some folklore stories that was still like the heart of someone

00:25:54.480 who's a powerful sorcerer and the heart was still alive

00:25:58.620 and there was like some snake coming out of it, you know.

00:26:01.280 So the demon was still there, so they had to kind of burn it completely. 0.77

00:26:06.180 And we imagine the witch burnings that the people, 0.82

00:26:09.080 like kind of like in Joan Ark, like your own pile of wood, you were, you know, stuck, you know,

00:26:15.620 there and they burn it. But it's more likely that people were kind of just laying down,

00:26:20.500 they tied their hands and feet and just lying there on the pile of wood to make sure that they

00:26:25.400 burned. So they weren't, they weren't killed first, they were killed by the burning. Yes, yes.

00:26:32.380 So that's different in Scotland, because in Scotland, largely that they were hanged or they

00:26:37.140 were strangled first and then their bodies were burned and the thinking in scotland was that they

00:26:42.600 had to destroy the body so that the devil couldn't couldn't bring the body back from the dead and go

00:26:48.200 and do terrible things so it sounds quite different in iceland it sounds like an extremely horrible

00:26:54.620 method of death and also but they were doing it for the person's soul to free the free the soul

00:27:01.240 so with a sort of a christian interpretation i presume that they're going to let the person

00:27:05.160 like free from this devil trap that they were in yeah exactly and there are also cases that

00:27:12.200 when the ropes burned before the people lost consciousness yes yeah so they ran out of the

00:27:17.660 fire you know but then they just brought them back not it oh that's so awful and there was

00:27:24.380 one case of man who was accused and was yeah sentenced to burn and he never admitted to

00:27:31.080 knowing any any kind of witchcraft and they had a lot of problem burning him and also collecting

00:27:36.380 the wood the horse that was bringing the wood he broke his leg and it's raining and he's he was

00:27:41.640 saying oh see my innocence you know everything is against you know you burning me but yeah but

00:27:47.900 they did it anyway. Anna can I ask do you know why the witchcraft accusations that became burnings 0.58

00:27:55.380 Do you know why it started?

00:27:57.020 Was there anything in particular that happened in the late 17th century

00:28:01.780 that caused the witchcraft trials to take place?

00:28:04.680 It's just strange it happens for such a short period.

00:28:09.040 It was mainly in the northwest, actually, where we are located,

00:28:13.520 that part of Iceland.

00:28:14.340 The northwest is called Vestfjords, and most of the witchcraft cases were there.

00:28:21.180 There was the first witch burning was actually not there,

00:28:23.260 but then there was a strange sickness here a bit north from where we are and no one could explain

00:28:29.840 this sickness and that it was people felt really bad when they especially when they went to church

00:28:35.280 so the only explanation people found it was kind of sorcery because when the people went to church

00:28:41.620 probably the devil was like haunting the people and he was fighting it was the especially worse

00:28:46.400 when they heard the God's word, you know?

00:28:49.020 And then there were three men burned after that.

00:28:52.740 One was accused, you know,

00:28:54.260 burned for this case, for causing this.

00:28:57.080 He admitted that he had done some kind of sorcery,

00:29:00.040 that he has seen the devil himself as a fox

00:29:02.880 and sent him to someone, but not causing this.

00:29:06.420 But then there were two other men who admitted

00:29:08.700 or, you know, for using some kind of sorcery

00:29:11.920 and they were all three burned.

00:29:13.200 And I think when something like that happened,

00:29:16.400 for the people at the time they just saw okay this must be real because they burned like three men

00:29:22.000 there and so the people were practicing they believed in it more and the people who were

00:29:27.040 afraid of it also believed it more so it's kind of like let the fire you know literally it lit the

00:29:33.200 fire in people's minds and also lit the fire so yeah what's really interesting anna that you've

00:29:40.720 said that it was three men that were accused of witchcraft now we know from the researchers that

00:29:47.200 we've done in europe as a generality those countries had the vast majority of people

00:29:53.960 accused of witchcraft as women but in iceland we understand that's different yeah yeah it's

00:30:00.000 completely different and it seems like sorcery was something that men practiced more yeah i get

00:30:05.780 this question a lot and i don't think there's a one simple answer for it uh that we actually have

00:30:11.640 it was similar in north norway too there were also witch burnings and they were mainly men

00:30:16.660 mostly men were burned there and i've heard one um explanation could be that the society here was

00:30:23.340 different than in europe or other places it's because every person every woman had to be bound

00:30:29.680 to a certain household you could not be like a woman living alone in a hut you know in a house 0.75

00:30:35.880 somewhere you have to be part of household in a farm it's just a farmer society and you had to 0.91

00:30:41.600 have belong to a certain farm or something so in europe maybe they these women who were accused

00:30:48.000 for witchcraft many of them might have been just women that were kind of not following the social

00:30:53.720 rules or just living alone and then just a little bit strange and then people found out that oh 0.99

00:30:58.820 they're witches you know so and no protection if they were if they were like that they were just

00:31:04.680 on their own without somebody looking after them they maybe weren't as important in a structure 1.00

00:31:10.060 whereas what you're saying if if women had to belong to a particular farm presumably that was 1.00

00:31:14.900 so they could work on the farm so they would be important to the farm and if they lost them they

00:31:19.500 lost a worker so they're more valuable yeah yeah and if you of course and some of the cases like

00:31:25.640 they were accusing there was a priest who accused the father and the son for causing sicknesses

00:31:31.860 in his home and then after he burned them he got the land and everything that that belonged to them

00:31:36.860 you know so if you do that to a woman you don't get anything because she didn't own anything it

00:31:41.580 was the man who owned you know that's also could be you know that's that's interesting yeah because

00:31:48.260 we found that with the work that that we've heard about in the research that we've done that there

00:31:52.700 were there were definitely a strong amount of cases in scotland of women that were accused as

00:31:58.100 witches and then the person that accused them surprise then got their land yeah exactly you

00:32:05.940 can see that there's that would be an ulterior motive that somebody would have but so women in 0.95

00:32:10.580 in iceland weren't allowed to own land then no ah so the not the not owning of land and the 1.00

00:32:20.020 belonging to a particular farm and having that particular structure maybe protected them because

00:32:27.460 they were useful economically as Zoe has said that's yeah I think so yeah there was one woman

00:32:33.600 who was burned for sorcery and witchcraft here in Iceland and he she actually moved to the West

00:32:39.220 Fjords and so she was new there and didn't have you know you know network there so she was not

00:32:45.840 protect it so and then she you know she was living there with her son and they were both

00:32:51.040 burned for witchcraft the men that were burned for witchcraft were they did they have power in

00:32:56.060 their communities or were they just they were just uh regular no most of the people that were

00:33:02.520 accused and burned for witchcraft well they were just a common man it was uh you know and sometimes

00:33:08.460 it was to get a land and sometimes it just was you know because yeah people really believed in

00:33:16.180 sorcery and then you know there was one man he actually proposed to one helper on the farm

00:33:21.060 and they refused that he wasn't allowed and then after they were sick and then they okay he caused

00:33:27.360 the sickness because we wouldn't allow him to marry our helper you know so it's a you know

00:33:33.160 it's the mixture of many things and in the vestuaries actually there were unconvenient

00:33:39.780 the relations between the people with power for example there was one priest here reverend he has

00:33:44.920 been studying in denmark no in germany sorry and there he learned about this demology or like

00:33:51.200 yeah yeah exactly yeah no all this you know science behind the witchcraft you know and the

00:33:57.740 witch hunts you know got to know it there and at the time he was very knowledgeable

00:34:01.820 just respected in Iceland just for the benefit of our listeners when Anna said the word science

00:34:07.200 there she put she put air quotes around it yes you can see Anna on the screen but obviously

00:34:14.440 you'll not be able to when you listen to the podcast so when Anna said science she wasn't

00:34:18.020 meaning actual now science in case anybody gets so they studied the quote-unquote science and

00:34:24.980 And then that did that make them feel that they had, you know, that this was new understanding that actually this was a real thing, like an illness, essentially.

00:34:34.180 Yeah, exactly. And he wrote about this and his half brother was actually a sheriff here.

00:34:40.100 So it was easy for him, you know, and his wife was most likely an alcoholic or something because he was very sick and they couldn't realize what the sickness was and why she was always in bed.

00:34:51.200 And then, of course, he grabbed his knowledge and said, OK, this is sorcery.

00:34:56.280 And, you know, and because of him, they were like, I think there were seven of these 21 related to this, just this one family there.

00:35:05.380 In Iceland, my extremely small amount of knowledge I have about Iceland is that you've got a strong and rich tradition of folklore, don't you, in Iceland?

00:35:16.300 Yeah, yeah, me too.

00:35:17.560 yeah yeah and has that is that still present in modern day iceland yeah i would say so yeah

00:35:25.180 and we are really proud and we want to keep this up and well especially where i am and we live here

00:35:32.700 we we want to keep this up here we have actually an institution here in holmavik with a folklorist

00:35:38.980 he's doing research and work with this and there's actually something that the museum of

00:35:44.520 Social and Witchcraft established first,

00:35:47.520 but then they stopped running this.

00:35:49.060 And then the University of Iceland took over this institution

00:35:51.800 as a part of the University of Iceland.

00:35:54.900 So we are kind of trying to take the folklore

00:35:57.680 and we want to have here.

00:35:59.660 So if you want to learn about Icelandic folklore,

00:36:01.560 you come to Strande, you come to us.

00:36:04.100 And last summer we had actually a visitor from Scotland.

00:36:07.800 We had J.K. Rowling visiting the museum.

00:36:10.800 Oh, wow. Very cool.

00:36:14.520 that's great

00:36:16.780 yeah yeah

00:36:17.800 I didn't know about it

00:36:18.880 until the day after

00:36:19.760 when I saw the news

00:36:20.760 it was very

00:36:21.580 it was a shock

00:36:22.900 they could have had her

00:36:24.300 at the museum 0.99

00:36:24.780 that's annoying

00:36:25.520 but 0.96

00:36:26.120 she was at the museum

00:36:28.420 she came

00:36:29.000 she was on a yacht

00:36:30.900 around Iceland

00:36:31.860 and she came

00:36:32.800 to Hormley

00:36:33.420 just to come to the museum

00:36:35.480 you know

00:36:36.040 wow

00:36:36.980 that's great

00:36:38.180 great

00:36:39.460 and do you think

00:36:40.860 that Iceland's

00:36:41.780 interest in folklore

00:36:43.140 is it tied up

00:36:44.460 with the witch child in Iceland you know I wouldn't say so no it's just very old and it's just in our

00:36:51.720 soul you know yeah and when I've been thinking about it now it's just kind of many things that 1.00

00:36:57.540 are just normal to me that you it's normal for me to think that there are certain parts of nature

00:37:04.200 you don't understand you don't see and but you have to respect it you know and we have many places

00:37:10.180 that this is a sacred place you're not allowed to do anything there or move the stone otherwise

00:37:15.000 something bad will happen it might be because elves are there or yeah and we have some stories

00:37:20.540 about that when we've been building roads that there's a they have to move a certain stone or

00:37:25.360 they're about to do it and then all the machines break down and no one can explain what's happening

00:37:29.600 and then they just build the road around the stone you know so wow belief in elves actually is well

00:37:37.680 most of the people don't want to deny you know they don't want to say okay I believe in elves

00:37:41.640 but they don't also don't want to say I don't believe now so they kind of like don't want to

00:37:45.720 deny their existence you know because we're hedging their bets they they're not going to

00:37:52.240 confirm or deny there might be elves is what people are agnostic on elves elf agnostic I would

00:37:57.900 say what do what do modern day Icelandic people think about the witch trials they think this is

00:38:06.000 crazy that people believe that you were able to do all these strange things with magic and sorcery

00:38:12.380 do you get taught about it in school in iceland not so much no actually not so much but it's not

00:38:20.220 like people don't really know very much about it because that's something that we've found here is

00:38:24.720 that we weren't taught about scotland's which like passed really um and we're learning new things

00:38:30.440 about it all the time is it similar in iceland then i think this is not so big like in scotland

00:38:35.980 I don't know. We know there have been some wits burnings. I think it's just like with the darker side of our story, we don't want to focus so much on that. So that's why we don't teach it so much, you know. But I find it a very important lesson, you know, because this is something that's the people with least power, you know.

00:38:55.640 Yeah. We've spoken to so many people all over the world, Anna. That's the theme that we keep seeing throughout all these different cultures, all these different times. It's all about the power structure between those that are in power and those that are vulnerable. And it's always the vulnerable people who come off worst, unsurprisingly.

00:39:19.120 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:39:20.380 But I think we also have to understand,

00:39:22.300 like people believe this was real.

00:39:24.320 And if you believe that someone was able

00:39:26.740 with witchcraft and sorcery to do something,

00:39:29.320 it's kind of like you have this invisible enemy.

00:39:32.060 You know, everyone looked the same,

00:39:33.720 but someone could be a sorcerer of wits.

00:39:35.960 And it's, you know.

00:39:37.600 It's all about making people other,

00:39:40.060 making people the outsider.

00:39:41.480 And once people are made the outsider,

00:39:44.340 then they're very vulnerable to accusations

00:39:46.480 that aren't true.

00:39:47.560 unfortunately our societies all our societies appear to do that you know repeatedly over time

00:39:54.060 they make some people the other people they're the bad people they're the people that have caused

00:39:58.700 our problems exactly it's interesting to see how although we grow up in a lot of different cultures

00:40:05.000 there's some basic human psychology at work that seems to affect all these cultures

00:40:10.180 yeah yeah exactly so tell us when did the museum open up how long has it been going

00:40:16.920 It opened up in 2000. So last year we're celebrating our 20th anniversary. And it was established by a group of local people. There was a man who was studying in the university and it did like a report for the area here, how folklore could be used to strengthen opportunities for the area.

00:40:38.900 and one part of the report was we might open a museum about sorcerer and witchcraft and that

00:40:45.280 idea got a lot of tension and so they said okay this is a good idea let's you know work that

00:40:50.580 further so it took so a few years to prepare it but they opened in 2000 and there was a group of

00:40:57.460 locals who had different talents so one was historian one's folklorist carpenter electrician

00:41:03.900 you know so like with and and it yeah and it worked and uh the motivation was to build something

00:41:11.460 up that would attract people and a call for attention here but then and it seemed like

00:41:16.940 social witchcraft was something that grabbed the attention and was located here because most of the

00:41:22.580 cases were in the west shorts and this area stunted which is the east that coast here it has always

00:41:29.960 It's been kind of had this reputation that people here know more and no kind of sorcery.

00:41:36.060 And there are folklore stories of some sorcerers who lived here, like one who actually was the first of the settlers.

00:41:43.380 He was able to bring out fog when the enemies were coming, so he wouldn't find him.

00:41:48.880 Yes, so they decided to have that here.

00:41:50.940 And it has been flourishing and expanding.

00:41:53.480 We have an exhibition in Holmovik.

00:41:55.820 It's a main exhibition.

00:41:57.020 We also have a second part of the exhibition.

00:41:59.440 It's a bit north, 30 kilometers north from here.

00:42:03.560 And that's a saucer's cottage.

00:42:05.600 And it's like this old turf, Icelandic turf house.

00:42:09.140 And it shows how the tenants, how the common people lived during this time, in the 17th century.

00:42:14.920 Because most of the people that were accused were just poor farmers, some tenants who had very rough life and, you know, used some magical staves and reciting some words just to help them in there.

00:42:28.060 just to try and make them feel better or just to try and make their situation better so it's

00:42:34.520 very tragic we have talked in the past um zoe and i also with other guests about the fact that

00:42:40.440 it's a terrible thing to have happened but it is also fascinating yes that people want to know

00:42:46.800 about it and are intrigued yeah yeah and it's kind of like i think it would be kind of like

00:42:53.740 this dark tourism you know you kind of want to learn about the dark things and the hard things

00:42:58.720 also it's still important to learn about about the history of what's what's happened to people

00:43:04.020 i suppose so we never do it again it's important exactly it's important to know these things

00:43:09.040 happen but we don't have stories of like for example the witches uh flying on broomsticks

00:43:15.000 or something no and we didn't even have broomsticks here in iceland so

00:43:19.440 so we weren't sweeping the floors they were just mud floors it didn't make any sense to sweep them

00:43:26.760 so in popular culture what do witches look like in iceland because in scotland it's the black

00:43:34.060 pointy hat the cat the broom it's a woman she's got a big nose yeah yeah of course we have that

00:43:40.100 now you know just you know as an influence from other cultures for movies and all that yeah so

00:43:45.680 So I wouldn't say we have any special, but like the older stories

00:43:51.200 and the folklore stories about these sorcerers,

00:43:54.460 then there are these priests, actually.

00:43:56.760 The most powerful sorcerers were priests, Catholic priests, you know.

00:44:00.520 And I think sorcery and religion, it comes from the same roots, you know.

00:44:06.400 Yes.

00:44:07.660 I'm telling this to the kids when they come to me to visit the museum.

00:44:11.680 I was like, yeah, the sorcery in Witska is as old as religion

00:44:15.500 because it's your way to show that you have kind of power from above

00:44:19.920 or, you know, or something else, more power than as an individual

00:44:23.600 to show that you can do something that the other people cannot

00:44:27.340 than kind of like Jesus.

00:44:29.180 And then they say, like, what are you saying?

00:44:30.940 Jesus was a sorcerer?

00:44:32.080 It's like, well, I think a lot of things that he did was kind of like, yeah,

00:44:36.060 it would be considered as a sorcerer, you know?

00:44:38.580 He was healing the sick and he was turning water to wine.

00:44:42.900 I don't know, but, you know, there's miracles and sorcery.

00:44:47.260 It's, you know, the same world.

00:44:49.520 I was going to say, one man's miracle is another man's sorcery. 0.93

00:44:53.620 One woman's miracle is another woman's sorcery, I suppose. 0.73

00:44:57.980 It's just different ways of describing things which make different ideas apply to them.

00:45:03.940 You know, if one's a miracle, it seems good and positive.

00:45:07.240 If one's sorcery, it's seen evil or bad.

00:45:10.500 but you're talking about the same kind of ideas so interesting so how many visitors are you getting

00:45:17.200 to the museum we are open all year round we also have a restaurant there so people also come just

00:45:25.080 you know local people just come to have dinner or coffee or you know so we have like in the last

00:45:30.460 years we have had like 16 000 over the whole year you know wow well it's like 9 000 maybe 9 000 from

00:45:38.780 that we're just going to the museum but you know extra you know the other maybe just visiting the

00:45:43.200 restaurant but yeah we are getting a lot of a lot of visitors as soon as we can anna we want to come

00:45:49.340 over and visit yeah i i can't wait to be able to get out and visit these different places but i'd

00:45:54.680 love to go to iceland i'd really love to go there so hopefully one day soon we will actually get to

00:46:00.340 travel back out of scotland again at some point yeah and we look forward to coming and visiting

00:46:06.260 you if we can and seeing your beautiful part of the world yeah you're welcome i'll be happy to

00:46:14.000 have you lovely lovely well thank you so much for coming and telling us the the stories that you

00:46:20.140 have told us it's so interesting to us to hear about the the same ideas about power structure

00:46:25.720 but how it worked differently in your community and how unusually it was men that were involved

00:46:31.660 in the history of witchcraft and the burning.

00:46:34.300 So, Anna, thank you so much for joining us.

00:46:36.980 We really, really appreciate it.

00:46:38.400 Thank you.

00:46:45.420 Thank you so much for joining us today

00:46:47.420 for the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:46:49.900 Join us next week for episode 33,

00:46:52.920 which is quite exciting.

00:46:54.400 In the meantime, please do tell people

00:46:56.720 about the different areas

00:46:58.040 where they can interact with us.

00:46:59.760 So we're on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.

00:47:03.380 Although I don't think you've not done any more TikToks, have you?

00:47:05.600 I haven't done any TikToks.

00:47:07.620 I'm just a little bit.

00:47:08.040 Come on.

00:47:09.260 You should be doing TikToks.

00:47:12.060 Ladies and gentlemen, just if you don't get that sarcasm that you're hearing with me.

00:47:17.400 So not so much TikToks then.

00:47:20.040 But we are really happy to hear from people.

00:47:23.160 We're really enjoying people getting in touch.

00:47:24.660 We've had two different people get in touch this week,

00:47:26.720 just to say how much they're particularly enjoying the podcasts that are quite new listeners one of

00:47:32.380 them said that she is unable to get on with her study that she's supposed to be doing because

00:47:36.680 she's sort of fallen down the rabbit hole of looking into the witch trials in scotland so

00:47:40.940 that's that's good i mean bad obviously for our studies but good for us yeah as we were reflecting 1.00

00:47:45.860 on people wanting to learn things it's probably the best idea if they keep doing their studies

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00:48:18.060 show people how to actually access podcasts not just ours but all the other marvelous things that

00:48:23.160 out there to listen to absolutely absolutely and please do get in contact with us in particular

00:48:28.720 if do you think it's a good idea for our national memorial to be a museum of which trials do you

00:48:36.700 think that's a good idea it'd be really interesting to see whether or not the listeners thought that

00:48:41.680 that was an interesting aspect having and where do people think it should be not i mean i have to

00:48:47.500 clarify we've got absolutely no say in this whatsoever really i don't think but i think you

00:48:51.980 know again it'll be probably a case of people power i suppose to an extent but where do you

00:48:56.880 think that would be good to have a memorial and or a museum we're in scotland and with that fair

00:49:02.060 listeners we shall get my hair done what i'm getting my hair done today i just want to share

00:49:07.620 that with everybody it's quite exciting again not not the most useful for podcasting but next

00:49:14.440 you can come back with your new hair and tell us about it thank you very much i will gladly tell

00:49:20.340 about that right okay thank you so much for listening speak to you next time bye bye

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Witches of Scotland - April 18, 2021

ANNA BJÖRG - THE ICELAND MUSUEM OF WITCHCRAFT AND SORCERY

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