Witches of Scotland - CATHERINE MACPHEE ON SYKE, HARTMUT HEGELER ON GERMANY ALEXANDRA MAHER ON “THE CUNNING”

00:00:00.200 Hi, I'm Clare Mitchell, QC. Welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:05.220 I'm a lawyer who specialises in miscarriage of justice cases,

00:00:08.740 and we're bringing you this podcast because we want to tell you 0.61

00:00:11.580 about the women who were accused, prosecuted, convicted,

00:00:15.720 and ultimately executed as witches in Scotland.

00:00:18.780 I'm Zoe Vendetotsi, and I'm a writer who's always had an interest in the witches,

00:00:23.040 and I feel that this dark mark against Scotland needs a reckoning.

00:00:26.720 The campaign Witches of Scotland wants three things.

00:00:29.580 Firstly, a pardon for all those convicted of witchcraft.

00:00:33.120 Secondly, an apology for all those who were accused as witches.

00:00:37.420 And finally, a national monument in recognition of all those who were affected by this terrible miscarriage of justice.

00:00:44.420 Over the forthcoming weeks, we'll be talking to a whole host of experts about the history and the modern day connections to the witches of Scotland.

00:00:51.440 hello and welcome to episode 12 of witches of scotland we've got a great episode for you today

00:01:02.580 we're going to go to sky to hear about a woman who was killed as a witch and we're also going

00:01:07.800 to go to germany to hear about first of all someone who is on the same path as us who's

00:01:12.860 trying to get a pardon for a woman and also how he in fact follows in the footsteps of someone who

00:01:18.780 at the time of the witchcraft trials, was trying to get these convictions overturned. But first of

00:01:24.900 all, as ever, we start with naming some of the women in Scotland who were accused and killed

00:01:30.020 as witches. Zoe, who do we have for us today? Well, first of all, we've got one of the Witches

00:01:37.120 of Liberton from 1661. What we thought we'd do today is read her confession, which was taken at

00:01:43.580 the time so this was for a woman called margaret bryson now bear with because we are reading this

00:01:50.720 from the old i don't know is it scots old it's not old english but it's definitely not standard

00:01:57.420 english as we would recognize it today what i think is is scots as it was written at the time

00:02:02.580 but it doesn't appear to be that there were any correct way of writing things it just sounds like

00:02:08.760 it was written as it was said so you get lots of different spellings depending on people's

00:02:13.220 accent i suppose which is okay because as a secondary english teacher i'm quite used to that

00:02:18.200 right so the lady that we're going to look at first then is margaret bryson so i'm just going

00:02:24.200 to read from her confessions it says margaret bryson confesseth about witsunday by gain a year 0.97

00:02:29.800 she being in a great agony and grief at her husband about 10 o'clock at night for selling

00:02:35.240 of ain cow she cried out and bade either god or the devil come and tack her from them and did run 1.00

00:02:41.440 out to the house wall and the night to have felled herself and her daughters came forth and took her

00:02:46.620 in again and she went to her bed but could get no rest and was within an hour after she'd lain down

00:02:52.240 and came to the live house door where the devil did appear to her and said he should take her

00:02:58.140 away soul and body and caused her to put her hands on the head the other on her foot and renounce

00:03:04.000 her baptism to him and she should want nothing and she did so and promised to be his servant

00:03:08.760 the devil nipped her on the shoulder where she thought she was pricked so that's all that it

00:03:13.780 says about her and claire you were saying to me that it was quite common that this kind of story

00:03:17.940 of renouncing her baptism kind of did the rounds and then women were quite familiar with what that's

00:03:22.480 what they would say presumably after they'd been sleep deprived and or physically tortured

00:03:26.540 they would then just say something along these lines just to get it over with yeah i mean the

00:03:32.080 renouncing of the baptism was important from the accuser's point of view because what it was was

00:03:37.680 you were turning away from God and what was godly and what had been promised by your baptism that

00:03:42.720 you were given to him and that you were being given to another and what's interesting is the

00:03:48.040 reference to touching on her head and her foot and renouncing her baptism appeared to be the way

00:03:53.960 that people spoke about the renouncing and time and time again we see women saying he touched me

00:04:00.560 on the head and on my foot and renounced it and what it would appear to happen is of course

00:04:05.020 people confess to this other women hear that that's how their baptism is renounced and then

00:04:10.940 when they are being tortured they just repeat the same thing it appears that that was the case

00:04:15.820 just shows you how odd situation that people were forced into to make up things and obviously all

00:04:22.240 this woman think of was that she had her husband had sold the cow and she had cursed him for it

00:04:30.060 by seeing either god or the devil take you it's also really strange like it can't can't be

00:04:35.640 tremendously easy to put your hand on your head and one of your feet at the same time to announce

00:04:40.920 the baptism like it's a bit it's quite odd that i think well i don't know whether the devil took

00:04:46.200 a huge form or whatever but that was that was what he was doing do you think that then that's

00:04:52.920 the devil sorry that touches the hand and head or do you think that it's the woman or the person

00:04:57.660 that's been executed when they're making their confession it's them that's supposed to put their

00:05:01.580 hand on their head and their foot the sole their foot at the same time well and this one said he

00:05:07.400 caused her put her hands on the head that's not not straightforward well if it's her herself that's

00:05:16.600 doing it is to put one hand on her head and one hand on her foot that would be easy but the sole

00:05:21.980 of your foot though i know that this sounds really persnickety on my part right but if you're

00:05:25.880 standing up because you're presumably not going to take a seat when you're talking to the devil

00:05:29.380 right so presumably you're standing up it's a bit like twister like you know

00:05:34.060 like if you if i was to stand up now i can't do because i'm holding my phone but if i was to stand

00:05:39.920 up now and put one hand on my head and one on the sole of my foot you know it's not the most

00:05:43.320 straightforward it's it's sort of ludicrous yeah it isn't it isn't the most straightforward and i

00:05:47.780 hadn't actually physically thought about it before sometimes it says the devil bade her put it on

00:05:54.380 head and foot and I was like is that the devil that's putting his hand on her head and on her

00:06:00.000 foot so that yeah that might be more easy I think this is like a writer's point of view I'm like how

00:06:05.060 would I describe this is he making them in this nonsense I think this shows that it is nonsense

00:06:10.900 but is he making them stand and if he's touching them I can see him putting his hand on their head

00:06:15.820 but then is he sort of like right raise your foot you know I mean that seems nonsense I think 0.95

00:06:21.660 it's the devil doing it or the woman doing it it's to signify that they're giving over their 0.94

00:06:28.300 whole body that's the idea that i have you know from my head to my toes i am renouncing my baptism

00:06:37.040 and giving myself over that's kind of the narrative that i thought i'd love to know where

00:06:43.460 that originally came from who was the first person to make that as their confession with

00:06:48.020 that physical description well i wonder how baptism used to happen did it happen in a different way

00:06:55.080 then where religious baptisms rather than we think of it in the modern day as being done with water

00:07:00.940 where they may be done by putting your hands on head that would be something we might want to

00:07:06.860 to see whether or not it's just a recreation of the way people were baptized then rather than

00:07:13.220 god being present the devil was present well if any listeners know please do get in touch

00:07:18.500 yes about the specifics of that yeah yeah so who's our next woman that we're going to remember

00:07:24.160 so the next woman that we're going to remember is a woman who we have very little information about

00:07:29.240 her name is janet barker and she came to trial on the 29th of december 1643 she is female she was

00:07:41.160 unmarried, she went to trial and she was executed. That's all the information we have on Janet Barker.

00:07:49.660 The other person convicted as a witch that we'd like to talk about today was an Earl of Bothwell

00:07:56.900 that was tried as a witch. Now this is an early Earl of Bothwell that appears to have been

00:08:02.800 in 1594 the Earl of Bothwell who was male, unmarried, went to trial on an accusation

00:08:11.980 of witchcraft. Now the outcome of what happened to him as identified is not known which I think

00:08:18.120 is really weird because one thing that we do know about is records were better kept for those that

00:08:24.480 were higher up on a social scale. Unfortunately we have an Earl of Bothwell in 1594 being accused

00:08:31.720 of acts of witchcraft, but the outcome of that was not known. It appears, and I'm working back

00:08:38.580 from dates, it appears that this is the fourth Earl of Bothwell, and that was one who immediately

00:08:45.820 was before the Earl of Bothwell, who killed Mary Queen of Scots consort Darnley. So you'll remember

00:08:53.740 that, well I remember from school, when we talked about Mary Queen of Scots, the Earl of Bothwell

00:08:58.820 was amongst the intrigue in relation to the life of Mary

00:09:03.580 and I remember hearing all about the Earl of Bothwell

00:09:07.040 in relation to the death of Darnley

00:09:08.840 but I checked up the date of that Earl of Bothwell

00:09:12.340 and it seems to be that he was, Mary's Earl of Bothwell

00:09:16.740 was the next in line as Earl of Bothwell

00:09:20.020 after the one who was accused of witchcraft.

00:09:22.860 So that was just an interesting thing I thought

00:09:24.740 and it's strange that history does not appear to record

00:09:27.600 what the outcome of that accusation was. I should say what I also found about in my investigations

00:09:33.100 I had known a little about the Earl of Boswell that was involved in Mary Queen of Scots life

00:09:39.560 but what I didn't know and what I found out from that famous source of knowledge Wikipedia

00:09:44.960 was a body that referred to as Boswell's mummy materialized in the Edinburgh Wax Museum on the

00:09:53.420 Royal Mile and it was claimed that a body a mummy was brought to Scotland in 1858 and that this was

00:10:02.080 the Earl of Bothwell who had fled Scotland having been involved in the life of Mary Queen of Scots

00:10:08.680 so it appears at least it might be folklore it might not be true but it appears in some way

00:10:14.160 the Edinburgh Wax Museum considered that a body that was brought back was in fact the Earl of

00:10:20.300 bottles no idea whether or not that's correct or not again if anyone knows it'll be quite

00:10:25.540 interesting it's not strictly to do with witches but it'd be quite interesting to find out whether

00:10:29.920 or not it is true that his body was brought back to scotland to the edinburgh wax museum on the

00:10:35.240 royal mile it made me think of the lilyas ady issue with the skull and so on and the idea of

00:10:41.460 people's bodies being fit for entertainment yes it's just really odd yeah it seems to be an odd

00:10:48.300 but human condition that if you found something like that I mean even famously the bloody Mackenzie 0.89

00:10:54.780 the Lord Advocate Mackenzie who was about at the time of the witch trials that we've perhaps spoken

00:11:00.500 about before he was the gentleman who was involved in Scottish history when the Covenanters came to

00:11:07.540 Scotland and he was known as the bloody Mackenzie because he was known to be very fierce but he was

00:11:13.100 also known to be a quiet critic of the witchcraft trials he believed that a lot less people were

00:11:19.920 witches than were actually being accused and on occasion stepped in to stop witchcraft trials

00:11:26.640 happening but in his life after his death and when he died he was buried in Greyfriars Bobby

00:11:33.020 in the early 90s two young boys dug up where he was interred and had been found to be playing

00:11:42.500 football with a skull which was said to be the bloody mackenzie's and they were prosecuted for

00:11:48.380 that back in the early 90s so that's true that's not just uh that's not just an urban myth two

00:11:53.860 boys really did do that good lord that was something that happened many years ago now but

00:11:59.080 yeah it's strange some of these figures in history that are recurring do come back and it also shows

00:12:05.820 that when women were killed as witches and they were not only were they killed as strangled but

00:12:11.660 were also burnt to get rid of any part of their body that their story also disappeared because

00:12:16.500 there was nothing to remember them by no part of them or nothing that people could tangibly hold

00:12:22.260 on to to recreate their history so in some ways i think having nothing to remember people by not

00:12:29.420 even a headstone or a grave or a memorial is a terrible thing but it does show you with lilius's

00:12:34.900 case and also i suppose with the bloody mackenzie's case that if you do have a memorial or you are

00:12:40.620 buried there's always a possibility that you won't remain that way we're going to be talking

00:12:45.080 more about memorials next week aren't we yeah hopefully next week's show that'll be really

00:12:49.540 really interesting so as we've considered those people who were accused of witchcraft we're now

00:12:55.380 moving on and we're absolutely delighted to be able to speak this week to Catherine McPhee

00:13:01.600 from the Isle of Skye and perhaps Catherine you can introduce yourself and tell us what you're

00:13:07.520 all about? It's a big question. My name is Catherine McPhee and I'm a trainee archivist

00:13:13.280 on the Isle of Skye and grew up here, got an interest, you could say maybe more of a connection

00:13:18.540 to and I came across a case of a witch on Skye. And have you been able to find out much in your

00:13:25.740 researches about her? Yeah it started off, I was actually looking at court papers that are based 0.51

00:13:31.100 in our Inverness archives, not in the Skye one, and I just saw this reference saying that Rony

00:13:35.820 mcdonald sky for torturing and murdering katherine mckinnon and then i noticed on the side there was

00:13:40.200 a small detail in pencil just saying as a witch and i've never come across that so i just looked

00:13:45.220 into it so the details i found out quite amazing that we found out her name so her name was katherine

00:13:50.120 mckinnon and it has something on the paperwork which is known as a slanya here which is your

00:13:55.000 surnames which i had to get translated as well so what i found out about katherine mckinnon

00:14:00.260 is that she is the daughter of Lachlan,

00:14:04.240 who is the son of Donald the Swarby or Donald Dark,

00:14:08.460 which could have another meaning to it as well.

00:14:10.840 And it appears that in 1754,

00:14:14.440 she was in the village of Camus Cross on the south end of Skye

00:14:17.760 and she went begging to a man called Rudy McEhan.

00:14:21.240 So he's referred to as Rudy and Rory at different times

00:14:23.540 throughout the court records.

00:14:26.220 There's so many extracts, I just don't know quite which one to read.

00:14:28.620 So yeah, this one here.

00:14:29.460 So it says,

00:14:59.460 against her by the said Rory in his dwelling house so that was the first note and then I found

00:15:03.860 another one later on in the papers when it mentions that after the treatment by Rory that

00:15:11.220 she left the house she made a shift crawl to some house or houses in the neighborhood where she

00:15:16.360 saved for some time and she was taken to the house of a Donald Grant who was a day laborer

00:15:20.540 in Dewsdale Bakes so this is just kind of like the next little bit over in the township

00:15:24.180 where she languished in great pain for some days and died about 10 or 12 days thereafter

00:15:28.680 So that's what we know happened to Catherine

00:15:31.320 I haven't been able to find out much more on her

00:15:33.220 I'm going to work on her slonyach

00:15:34.760 Once I can access the archives down at Armadale Castle 0.97

00:15:38.220 Can I ask what's slonyach?

00:15:40.500 It's a Gaelic word for surname

00:15:41.760 Don't speak fluent Gaelic

00:15:43.260 But it's how you would kind of relay who you belong to

00:15:46.000 So she is Catherine, son of Lachlan

00:15:48.860 Who is son of Donald

00:15:49.900 So it's how you can kind of do your family history orally

00:15:52.240 And that's how she would have been known as well

00:15:54.880 So even though she's Catherine McKinnon 0.85

00:15:56.080 It will tell you who her ancestors are by her slonyach 0.98

00:15:58.180 that's what I can work on next 1.00

00:16:00.140 is finding out who they were

00:16:01.620 through maybe some old rental records

00:16:03.280 and maybe get a bit more background to her 1.00

00:16:04.860 because she's just described as an old beggar woman 1.00

00:16:06.940 she's not described as anything else

00:16:09.520 but having her name was quite amazing

00:16:11.160 Is she the only witch on Skye?

00:16:14.100 The only witch I've got evidence of

00:16:15.800 that somebody's been accused

00:16:17.040 and then murdered

00:16:17.980 every other story comes from folklore

00:16:20.720 there's more of an appreciation

00:16:23.100 maybe more of an understanding

00:16:24.180 we kind of go with it

00:16:25.500 I don't know I was quite shocked actually

00:16:26.980 when I found it

00:16:27.720 because you kind of grow up healing witch stories and one of the first stories I remember getting

00:16:30.860 told of a child was a witch story turning into a cat but you don't find it negative it's more

00:16:35.400 goes along with the Gallic other world or underworld as they sometimes call it so yeah

00:16:39.300 that kind of connection with the fairies, witches, kelpies is all kind of ingrained in culture rather

00:16:44.140 than something you would see people getting accused of. So do you think that's why there

00:16:48.440 weren't sort of more widespread cases on Sky because there was a different cultural attitude

00:16:52.880 towards the issue yeah i think it's more runs parallel alongside the culture here than something

00:16:58.880 really scary because people have more names that are connected to this kind of other realm other

00:17:05.760 worlds and all the stories that you hear about them you've got like poems there's one written

00:17:10.680 about a castle which is down in slate same area where the witch built the castle in overnight by

00:17:16.040 using a poem and it's the castle where scaha was she was a big female warrior so they were just

00:17:20.780 seen as powerful women rather than scary i love that idea so by the power of a poem and reciting

00:17:27.360 a poem a castle was built yeah it's a dumb skate castle so it's down in the south end of sky and

00:17:33.020 that's where cahoolan who's the irish warrior came over to kind of defeat her she was seen she says

00:17:37.320 she's in them i don't remember the name of that book is it marie kid yes uh we spoke earlier to

00:17:42.340 marie if that is in her book fantastic i'll go and give first woman in there yeah so that's the 0.98

00:17:47.160 castle her castle was built by a witch overnight with a home there's lots of relationships like

00:17:51.380 that and for me just having more of a understanding to second sight and it kind of just being accepted

00:17:57.600 nobody seems to kind of go oh don't go near that it's even growing up I remember family members

00:18:03.380 talking about going around somebody's house because they had second sight or they'd read

00:18:06.160 tea leaves and but also they're very religious as well yeah that's my kind of family background as

00:18:11.660 well that my gran and all her sisters they're Irish were all Catholic but they interwove into

00:18:17.660 their religion the superstitions and tea leaves was definitely one of them that was definitely

00:18:22.940 done on occasion I had such a boring family there was like and half my family are Irish and the 1.00

00:18:28.640 other half are Scottish but I think Protestants it's just much less interesting you know there's 1.00

00:18:34.280 nothing magical about that sorry that's just my very ignorant poorly researched view but there 1.00

00:18:40.820 was there was no chat like that in my family it's really boring there was a guy in my father's side

00:18:46.020 of the family that was known as the wizard of the north or ian do so black ian his brother was a

00:18:50.960 really famous gallic poet and so was his father but he was accused of all sorts of kind of dark

00:18:55.660 magic it sounds more like he might be a bit more like a kind of street magician but yeah there's

00:18:59.580 actual records of him doing stuff there's a few written accounts of playing tricks on people

00:19:03.340 ian do because he was into dark arts but it does make sense though if you culturally you have you

00:19:10.020 know the magical side and didn't see it as a negative that they would be less inclined to say

00:19:13.920 right this is the way that we're going to get this person we're going to accuse them being in league

00:19:17.800 with the devil does the devil feature in stories on sky no nothing like that i think some of the

00:19:24.360 stories so if you look at things like that witch story i was told when i was one of the first

00:19:28.500 stories i remember getting told within it these three cats appear and they turn into women in

00:19:33.280 the village and the child recognizes them that's probably the darkest one i've heard in connection

00:19:37.160 to which but there's been nothing with devils you get kelpies fairies there's nothing yeah nothing 0.74

00:19:42.500 like that at all i suppose it wasn't seen as a kind of good and evil it was probably seen as 0.97

00:19:46.020 another world so when we spoke briefly yesterday i was saying about that within the highlands this

00:19:50.680 kind of understanding of seers and acceptance of it i mentioned the brand seer to use the

00:19:55.960 mckenzie so he had the hagstone that was given to him and he was a seer and the hagstone's got a

00:20:01.820 hole in the middle that's how you would see through to the other world and predict the future so

00:20:06.620 literally if I just get this right literally a stone through which either nature had carved or

00:20:12.320 someone had carved a hole and you would physically the person would physically put it up to their eye

00:20:17.760 and be able to see what happened in the future yeah the hagstone so yeah the story with that one

00:20:22.360 is that his mother was at a graveyard he was born on the west of Lewis his mother was at a graveyard

00:20:27.840 when the ghosts were able to leave and she noticed one of the graves were empty and she held a stick

00:20:33.260 over it until that person came back and it was a norwegian princess and she said you need to give

00:20:37.480 me something to get back into your grave and she gave her son kenneth the gift of being second

00:20:43.240 sight and being able to see and he had the stone that allowed him to do it there's all sorts of

00:20:46.900 tales about him he's really big in the highland folklore scene and he himself lady seaforth had

00:20:52.000 him put in a spiked tar full of barrel and set on fire so he he did not come to a happy end either

00:20:59.300 No.

00:20:59.720 That's so awful.

00:21:01.040 Yeah.

00:21:01.420 Not everybody was lovely.

00:21:03.260 No.

00:21:03.800 Speaking of people that weren't lovely, 0.94

00:21:06.180 Catherine MacKinnon obviously was not a witch. 1.00

00:21:08.420 She was a poor woman who unfortunately happened to knock upon the door of Ruri.

00:21:13.620 Do we know anything more about him?

00:21:15.440 Do we know whether or not he was convicted of her merger?

00:21:18.240 He wasn't convicted.

00:21:19.440 As far as I'm aware, he hasn't been convicted.

00:21:21.600 I can't find any more court records in MNS.

00:21:24.160 I've had a search on the National Records of Scotland catalogue online,

00:21:27.200 but I stopped looking for him

00:21:29.540 because I kind of felt I had too much

00:21:31.080 I really wanted to find out more about Catherine

00:21:32.480 he comes from quite a prominent family on Sky

00:21:35.140 he's a man of wealth

00:21:36.640 a man of power

00:21:37.700 he is one of the last tax men

00:21:41.700 in Sky down in Camus Cross

00:21:43.620 for the Macdonald family

00:21:45.080 so two of the biggest plans on Sky

00:21:47.880 are the Macdonalds and the Macleods

00:21:49.560 the Macdonalds at the south end of the island

00:21:51.060 he at the time was actually

00:21:53.700 in jail in Fort William

00:21:55.740 when this accusation was put against him and that was in 1754 and he was in jail for treason

00:22:02.200 for sending treasonous letters he'd also been accused of wearing highland dress

00:22:05.980 so after the 45 and there's other charges against him for having weapons and there's other stories

00:22:12.460 on Sky about him just being you know horrible just absolute barbarous to people and he had just had

00:22:17.420 that power in the village the tax men were basically holding the lease on that area on

00:22:22.700 that ground so he was holding that off the McDonald's and running it and he'd charge rents

00:22:28.000 or get money from the estate from crops that were growing so she obviously went to his house looking

00:22:32.860 for help because he was in charge and this is what he did to her so she went looking for some

00:22:38.220 sort of care or help as a beggar and we understand in those days if people asked for your help when

00:22:44.780 they had nothing that it was appropriate to try and help them in some way I mean obviously that's

00:22:50.160 a good thing to do but i understand that there was a an understanding that if you asked for help

00:22:55.220 then it shouldn't be refused yeah certainly and and i mean that's quite early records for us for

00:23:00.400 the 1740s certainly later on you would see villages would have instead of having a poor

00:23:05.540 house we'd have what would be known as a pauper's house so you might have one house in the community

00:23:09.360 where people who needed a bit of help or were widows or infirm they would live there and the

00:23:13.420 community would just look after them there was no question asked it was just what happened and then

00:23:17.880 later on you had things coming in from the state essentially the parish and from the church but

00:23:22.760 that time that sounds just he was he was affluent he was a man of power he was in the mcdonald family

00:23:28.220 he was the cadet of those he was notorious you know he was involved in cattle raiding and just

00:23:33.180 generally known as being quite cruel in the village and from different accounts and yeah lots

00:23:38.460 of court records relating to him he's always in trouble i would just really like to have known

00:23:42.860 whether or not he was convicted of murder and murder being a capital offensive he was then

00:23:47.040 executed for it i wonder if there's any records in held centrally i might try and give that a look

00:23:53.360 myself so he was born around 1716 um i don't think the he doesn't pass away to about 1780s

00:24:01.000 okay ah okay so it wouldn't be then because if they would had executed him they would have done

00:24:08.820 it right after he'd been found guilty so it looks like either he wasn't convicted or if he was

00:24:15.600 convicted he got some other sort of sentence

00:24:17.840 yeah and there is you kind of

00:24:19.720 think he's kind of you know maybe seen as a bit of a

00:24:21.600 colourful character for you know for wearing the highland

00:24:23.600 dress and brandishing weapons

00:24:25.280 and you know stopping cattle raiding and

00:24:27.400 you know holding up the clan looking after the family

00:24:29.720 but sounds like he was

00:24:31.580 just brutal and one of the

00:24:33.660 other later accounts with

00:24:35.660 it as well it's accusing him

00:24:37.800 of forcing his servants

00:24:39.220 this is in the August

00:24:41.180 1754 when they're obviously still

00:24:43.680 trying to get this charge against him because

00:24:45.560 he's in Fort William and they're trying to get him up to Corton and Brunesse for these charges

00:24:48.780 and they keep adding and adding a little bits extra in so they're obviously interviewing people

00:24:52.320 in the village. In this one it says that he gets his servants or other people who happen to be in

00:24:57.780 the house at the time to tie her hands behind her back and hold the soles of her feet to a fire in

00:25:02.300 the kitchen, threatening to do them mischief or harm in case they did not obey him. Whereupon,

00:25:08.400 in order to avert the mischief which they were threatened, they did in obedience his commands

00:25:12.180 and tied the said Catherine MacKinnon's hands behind her back

00:25:14.820 and burnt her feet for some time.

00:25:16.840 He's a powerful guy.

00:25:18.180 Sorry, and obviously using threats of violence against others

00:25:21.240 to do his bidding.

00:25:22.260 I mean, it must have actually been horrific for them too.

00:25:25.520 Yeah, the house is still there.

00:25:27.520 What's been really amazing about this

00:25:29.060 is the help I've had from that community.

00:25:31.460 The Camas Cross area,

00:25:32.920 I've reached out to a couple of people down there

00:25:34.560 around things like the Sláině, some Gaelic phrases.

00:25:37.400 The village that was first mentioned,

00:25:38.920 I had no idea what it was.

00:25:40.260 It's an older name for part of the township.

00:25:41.960 that's been interesting speaking to people and one of my friend's dad sent me a picture of the

00:25:46.440 house from around maybe 1910 which I'll send on to you is it actually yeah it looks spooky like

00:25:52.340 just because it's on cpn yeah the house is still there I actually one of my friends lived in it

00:25:56.420 for a while which is so loads of people are interested they want to hear because it's so

00:25:59.800 unusual to have something like this here that would be fantastic what we would love to do as

00:26:03.940 well as be able to share it on social media so that people when they're hearing about the story

00:26:08.240 were able to have the visual of that house as well do people speak about it i mean is it or

00:26:13.160 is this something that you hadn't heard of before and you just came across it and you'd had no

00:26:16.840 notion of it not heard of it at all so strange when it's just the one the one story you know but

00:26:22.920 well i'm saying obviously i'm guessing that seeing he was known as you know a horrible and brutal

00:26:30.120 sadistic man that nobody maybe believed at all that the woman had done anything other than just

00:26:35.380 be in the wrong place at the wrong time so it wasn't viewed in the same way as it might have

00:26:39.000 been viewed here with some of the so-called and you know executed witches that people did believe 0.96

00:26:43.720 they were witches maybe on sky people just thought it's that bastard at it again yeah absolutely and 0.90

00:26:49.120 you know accusing her of poisoning his men or acquaintances and there's other references to him 0.79

00:26:53.960 causing i think it says like an efficacy of blood to people so there's a kind of there's a really

00:26:59.280 weird reference to him being a place called letter fura where people went smuggling and it sounds

00:27:04.060 like whatever he did to the people down there they died a couple weeks later right i couldn't

00:27:09.480 figure out just it's kind of a bit patchy between the records was it those people he was accusing

00:27:13.740 her of poisoning or was it people covering his own back that he'd he'd injured them in some way

00:27:19.520 and they just died slowly over time and to to say that it wasn't him he blamed it on her witchcraft

00:27:24.260 yeah it's really hard you're kind of piecing it together or thinking am i looking too much into

00:27:28.120 that because he was so violent you just don't know oh sorry yeah i was kind of thinking well

00:27:33.000 if she just turned up on his door how would she have poisoned his men because he wouldn't have

00:27:38.380 known but that would make sense if he thought he was going to take the rap for a poisoning 0.97

00:27:43.960 then to just blame it on some poor old woman who happened to go past yeah they would have all known

00:27:50.460 each other just similar today everyone would have known each other because even with this if I as

00:27:55.720 I've reached out to people they've said oh you should ask so-and-so up in that house or they

00:27:59.600 live there or they'll be interested to know they might and then people are going why don't we know

00:28:03.120 about this why hasn't anyone picked this up and then there is that you know he is related to

00:28:07.140 the high society he's of wealth and power so and then again that whole idea of wearing tart in the

00:28:12.820 highland dress in the 45 people want to romanticize it i know you can see your shoulder that kind of

00:28:17.920 romanticizing that image of somebody fighting against and standing up but behind it yeah

00:28:22.780 it doesn't suit the doesn't suit the overall political image of him to then go around killing

00:28:27.980 old ladies i yeah well catherine that is absolutely fascinating thanks so much for getting in contact

00:28:35.240 with us and telling us about catherine because otherwise we would never have heard and i hope

00:28:40.340 that if and when you find out more you'll be able to tell us more about her yeah thank you for

00:28:46.080 thank you for everything you're doing it's really interesting listening to all the podcasts

00:28:49.120 oh it's just great there's there's so much that i had absolutely no clue about whatsoever so when

00:28:53.980 people like yourself get in touch i mean we always say we're not experts at all what's been really

00:28:58.420 nice about this is that loads of other people that are experts in different areas have reached

00:29:02.120 out and said look here's this story or you maybe want to think about this it's just so fascinating

00:29:06.660 gives them more complete picture yeah because in the first email i sent you with the details from

00:29:12.160 the kirk sessions i was one of my colleagues and then raness that was later again it was still

00:29:15.920 these older practices you know burying animals under the threshold can you tell us about the

00:29:20.740 story because there was a story of somebody who later carried out what might be have been considered

00:29:26.060 a sort of act of witchcraft and luckily they were dealt with in very different ways from

00:29:31.240 people of witchcraft elsewhere so this is over in these are from the Galsby Kirk session minutes

00:29:37.420 and the entry reads it's reported to the session that Elspeth Bui to cure the child

00:29:42.980 digged a hole in the ground and put therein a living cock in the manner of some sacrifice 0.93

00:29:48.080 the session deciding that this amounted to gross idolatry or sacrifice to the devil found her 0.97

00:29:54.880 guilty and instructed her to be here before the congregation to confess and be reprehended for

00:29:59.960 her uncommon crime and then an entry several months later it reveals that Elspeth was sharply

00:30:05.380 rebooked and seriously exonerated to repentance as well as been ordered to stand in a sackcloth

00:30:10.860 for five days so strangely although she was convicted or held to be guilty of something

00:30:18.440 it wasn't being convicted in the secular court under the witchcraft act it was being convicted

00:30:24.240 before the the church effect yeah before the court and again it's she's doing something to

00:30:29.880 try and save her child that's having convulsions so she's just doing everything she can and an

00:30:35.220 older practice might work for her there's a few um that pop out like that now and again and there's

00:30:41.640 a few and a little couple of older books on sky where they talk about practices that sound a bit

00:30:44.520 like reiki like 1690s it's the only way you can explain them in modern terms they kind of describe

00:30:49.660 a guy using stones and metal hovering over a body and poetry and to heal somebody so yeah you kind

00:30:56.060 of get these wee follies throughout everything that's so interesting we always think reiki as

00:31:00.780 certainly not a Scottish art that's for sure but that would be absolutely amazing to find out that

00:31:05.580 it was being done in Scotland all that time back. This week we have a second fantastic guest for

00:31:17.700 you the talented writer and director Alex Mayer. In this clip from our conversation Alex starts by

00:31:24.160 introducing herself and we go on to chat about her latest project which I know listeners to the

00:31:28.880 podcast are going to be very interested in. After Alex, Zoe and I will be back with news

00:31:34.040 in Germany, where work is underway to pardon women accused, tried and executed as witches.

00:31:46.660 I'm Alex Ma and I'm a writer and director and I came across the story of Janet Horne

00:31:54.460 just by chance really and I was really taken with the fact that just nine years after she was

00:32:02.840 executed for witchcraft the witchcraft acts in Scotland were repealed and the terrible irony of

00:32:09.940 that for her and what happened to her but also part of the story that really caught my eye was

00:32:15.260 that her daughter who was accused along with her because she had what we would now call limb

00:32:22.180 different so she had a condition which affected her hands and feet. She'd been accused along with

00:32:28.480 her mother because her neighbours said that her mother had had her shod by the devil and then

00:32:34.360 used her to ride around the countryside to carry out her witchcraft and her daughter escaped the

00:32:40.880 burning and there's not really a written record of what happened to Janet Horne or to her daughter

00:32:46.700 But we have an oral history that was recorded about 100 years after her death.

00:32:52.800 And it is thought and said in some records that we have that her daughter continued to live in the area, which I was shocked by because I thought, well, if she'd escaped the burning, then was she not made the subject of the hunt?

00:33:07.440 and I've wondered a lot about her daughter and what happened to her after the event and also

00:33:12.840 the ordeal that she went through and having to know what became of her mother. I was taken by

00:33:18.640 the idea of difference and how women could be singled out for their difference and not just

00:33:24.900 women men as well and how that translates to discrimination against difference in today's

00:33:31.120 world. So the cunning is, it's so titled after the term cunning folk, which was a term used to

00:33:39.360 describe wise women or wise men and people who used herbal medicines and were thought to have

00:33:47.900 knowledge and could use powers for good. And I guess it was sort of a more positive slant on

00:33:57.380 what could be called witchcraft and if it was called witchcraft would be much more deadly

00:34:02.060 and because there was a firm distinction between cunning folk and witchcraft in which witches were

00:34:08.280 dangerous and the cunning folk were not and they were not in league with the devil. I thought about

00:34:14.080 that fine line and the differences that those women were picked out for and The Cunning is a

00:34:19.920 film that reimagines what happened to many of the victims of the witch trials and tries to

00:34:27.760 reclaim for them some dignity and some license and some agency in taking control of the situation

00:34:36.800 in a way that they unfortunately weren't able to do when a neighbour or somebody nearby pointed

00:34:42.340 the finger at them. You know, such small things could lead to a person being executed.

00:34:48.780 there are a number of different accounts about what happened with Janet Horne and what she said

00:34:53.920 and what she did and I expect many of them a speculation but she was thought to be suffering

00:34:58.960 with dementia at the time and confused about many things and a number of accounts do say that when

00:35:05.760 she arrived beside the fire that she smiled and warmed her hands on the fire not really realizing

00:35:12.940 what was happening and some accounts say that she even said oh what a bonnie fire

00:35:18.560 and it breaks my heart to think that a woman who is suffering with dementia could be treated in

00:35:24.720 such a way and and it's also I've read that the sheriff David Ross who pushed through the trial

00:35:31.320 really quickly and didn't actually have the legal authority to conduct the trial but he found both

00:35:37.840 of the women guilty and he sentenced them to be executed the following day so they didn't even

00:35:43.380 have you know much time to sort of address the fact that it wasn't a legal trial and you'll know

00:35:50.380 much more about that than i do um claire um yeah so so the cunning is a film that tries to

00:35:56.820 reimagine that history and um reclaim some of the dignity and license for those women

00:36:04.100 that sounds absolutely I mean it sounds absolutely great it sounds exactly what we want

00:36:10.120 with Witches of Scotland we want to remember these women memorialize them their stories what

00:36:17.260 happened to them and to as you say just give them back some dignity and then it sounds like an

00:36:23.520 absolute great project that you're doing tell us where you are in the project what's happening at

00:36:28.920 the moment is there any way that we can help you at Witches of Scotland? Ah you're so kind so um

00:36:34.560 yes we are in a really fantastic place we have some excellent excellent people on board to help

00:36:41.960 us tell our story the award-winning British actress Gemma Arterton is on board to play one

00:36:48.500 of our leading characters we have a fantastic young actress called Bethany Asher who will play

00:36:54.200 another of the leading characters and Scott's musician extraordinaire Erland Cooper is on board

00:37:01.100 to create a really beautiful soundtrack for us. We have attracted some investment from some very

00:37:08.240 generous supporters of the project and we're now in the process of striving towards a final

00:37:15.000 £6,000 portion of the budget that we need to add to the funds we've raised so far in order to push

00:37:22.280 it over the line and green light the project and our kickstarter is now in the final 10 days and

00:37:29.220 we are moving slowly but surely we hope towards our six thousand pound target it's an all or

00:37:36.480 nothing platform so if we don't reach that target by the cutoff date unfortunately we won't receive

00:37:42.740 any of the funding so we have our fingers and our toes crossed and we are hugely grateful to

00:37:47.240 everybody who's supported us so far. If anybody who is listening would like to support, we are

00:37:54.280 welcoming any donation that people feel they can make at this time. So every penny counts and every

00:38:01.980 follow and share counts for us on Twitter and Instagram. We are at Cunning Films on both of

00:38:08.960 those platforms. We hope that, fingers crossed, if we reach that target, we can put the film into

00:38:16.300 production early next year and hopefully complete it by the middle of the year. If you get the money

00:38:23.720 then that means the project can get started immediately, is that the idea? So as you know

00:38:30.020 we're living in complicated times with Covid-19 and actually film production is going ahead at

00:38:36.440 the moment but we will need to take all the necessary steps to make sure that we're a Covid

00:38:41.440 secure set we'll need to check on timings and dates with our actors so that we can get everybody

00:38:47.220 in the right place at the right time but certainly by spring spring 2000 2021 we would love to have

00:38:53.920 the film in production pretty quickly after we reach our target yes do you have your team and

00:38:59.520 everything already sort of picked you know if you when you get your funding do you know who it is

00:39:04.560 that you want to act in it and all the rest of it the production team yes so the cast is largely

00:39:10.900 already in place. We have Gemma Arterton and Bethany Asher as our lead characters and we will

00:39:18.040 be making some announcements shortly about other actors who are joining the cast. We have a number

00:39:23.180 of our production team and crew in place but we'll still be looking to appoint further key members

00:39:29.380 of the team in the coming months so it's exciting times ahead for us on that front.

00:39:34.900 I'll bet yeah we really hope at Witches of Scotland that we can assist you in some way

00:39:41.520 and what we will do is we'll give a shout out to our members not only on our podcast here

00:39:46.620 but also on social media and see whether or not we've got 10 days left and it's a difficult time

00:39:52.740 of year and it's a difficult year at a difficult time of year but if there's anyone who is in a

00:39:58.100 position to assist it would be great to do so and see the story of Scotland's last witch Janet

00:40:04.020 horn brought to life and her tale told so we really really hope that you get there and we

00:40:09.780 really look forward to seeing it when when you do thank you so much that's really kind um claire

00:40:15.400 and zoe and um i should just stress that the film whilst being inspired by janet horn and her

00:40:21.140 daughter it doesn't feature janet horn and her daughter it tells a reimagined story so it's

00:40:26.720 inspired by their story it takes the themes of being singled out for difference and these arbitrary

00:40:32.680 accusations and the torture and the threat and the fatal nature of those kinds of accusations

00:40:38.260 and it uses that to inspire the story. So really what you're doing is you're

00:40:43.060 telling, inspired by Janet Horne, you're telling the story of many, many women in that situation.

00:40:49.400 Yes, absolutely and it's sort of something that I've always enjoyed in Quentin Tarantino films

00:40:55.500 where he does a little bit of revisionist history where he takes a very well-known part of history

00:41:00.940 and a film called Inglourious Bastards

00:41:03.560 and in a film called Once Upon a Time in Hollywood,

00:41:06.040 a very key part of history that's very well known

00:41:08.900 gets reimagined and retold and flipped on its head slightly.

00:41:12.180 I don't want to give away any spoilers for the film,

00:41:14.480 but it's, yeah, it's taking particularly Janet Horne's story,

00:41:18.140 but also, as you say, the story of many, many women and men

00:41:22.540 who were subject to these, you know, awful, awful accusations

00:41:27.720 and awful fates as a result of the accusations.

00:41:30.940 well we really hope you get there and we really hope to see your movie in 2021 that's something

00:41:36.580 to look forward to thank you alex very much for coming to speak to us today thank you so much

00:41:41.900 remember as alex said every sort of penny and pound counts and also all the sharing is really

00:41:47.960 really helpful so even if you yourself don't have any cash hanging about just now you can share on

00:41:53.260 all the different platforms too so it reaches a bigger audience thanks so much alex thank you and

00:41:58.320 thank you so much for what you're doing I think your campaign is absolutely incredible and I would

00:42:02.880 encourage everybody to support and share your campaign too so thank you

00:42:07.180 you have perhaps heard us in the past say that we were going to be speaking to you about someone

00:42:28.100 who's also been trying to get pardons the man is Hartmut Hegelar and we'll come to hear about him

00:42:35.080 personally in a bit more detail but what happened was as I was talking to various different people

00:42:41.660 about trying to get a pardon I was being asked whether or not around the world other people

00:42:47.020 had been pardoned so I did a bit of research to see whether or not in other countries he'd been

00:42:52.540 pardoned and obviously I came up with Salem and found all about the pardons there and it would be

00:42:58.720 great actually if we could get someone from Salem to come and speak to us about the pardoning process

00:43:03.960 so anyone in the US who knows about that please do get in contact with us because it would be

00:43:08.700 really interesting to chat to them about it. But I also in my researches found Mr Hartmut Hegeler

00:43:14.740 And he is a pastor from Germany who spends his retirement going about Germany, up and down the length of the country, trying to persuade, I suppose, local authorities or local areas to pardon women who were convicted of witchcraft.

00:43:33.900 And what's so interesting about his website that I looked at is he, in fact, has named his website after Anton Praetorius.

00:43:44.420 And Anton Praetorius was a pastor who, at the time of the witch trials, was protesting against them.

00:43:51.040 He thought that a lot of the people, or maybe all the people, who were being accused and prosecuted as witches were not, in fact, witches.

00:43:59.240 So Anton Praetorius, at the time of the witchcraft trials, was a pastor who was trying to persuade people not to kill women as witches.

00:44:09.340 And in fact, having looked him up, Anton Praetorius was a German Calvinist pastor who spoke out against the persecution of witches.

00:44:18.940 I have managed to find a part, and again, this is from Wikipedia, you can go to it if you look up Anton Praetorius.

00:44:26.920 I have found a part where it says, in 1597, Praetorius was appointed as a pastor and he had

00:44:34.300 to witness the torture of four women accused of witchcraft. According to the records, Reverend

00:44:40.660 Praetorius was so upset about the torture of the accused women that he pressed for it to stop in

00:44:46.340 the trial against the last surviving women. His protest about the torture is actually recorded,

00:44:51.920 they actually have the record of that and what is said is the following quote quote as the pastor

00:44:57.960 has violently protested against the torture of the women it has therefore been stopped this time

00:45:03.260 as a consequence of that protest Anton Praetorius was dismissed throughout his life he continued to

00:45:10.380 protest against torture and persecution and prosecution of witches and he wrote books about

00:45:19.080 why women should not be tortured as witches and he is someone to be remembered at the time who was

00:45:25.880 totally out of step with the prevailing views who said stop this these women are not witches

00:45:33.220 and as was the case totally lost his place in society. Wikipedia records Praetorius was one of

00:45:39.880 the first to describe the terrible situation of the prisoners and to protest against the torture.

00:45:44.500 he publicly objected to the prevailing attitudes of the church and then there's brackets saying

00:45:50.460 a view held by Roman Catholics as well as Protestants such as Martin Luther and John Calvin

00:45:55.200 on the torture and burning of witches. So it's interesting that when our modern day pastor

00:46:02.200 Helmut Hegler decided to try and get a pardon for these women he did so flagging up the name

00:46:09.720 of Praetorius and on our social medias on Instagram, on Twitter etc we'll provide you

00:46:16.220 links to his website. I should say that Hartmut very kindly has answered some of our questions

00:46:22.860 for us in order that we can read them out so we get to find out about Hartmut Hegler and we get

00:46:28.260 to find out about his work. What he has also done is he has photographs of a number of the sites

00:46:35.400 where women have been given pardons

00:46:38.580 and he's provided us with photographs of these

00:46:41.120 which he's allowed us to use.

00:46:42.860 So again, we'll post those in social media

00:46:45.020 so you can see not only the German memorials

00:46:48.040 that he's given us pictures of,

00:46:49.740 but he's also sent us some lovely pictures

00:46:52.360 of the Finnmark Memorial in Norway

00:46:55.200 that we've spoken about before.

00:46:57.020 So we'll be able to post them too.

00:46:58.980 And as I say, it's very kind of him

00:47:00.380 to have granted his permission for us to do that.

00:47:03.320 so I wonder without further ado if we can actually go to the written interview that he has provided

00:47:11.180 us. Do you want me to tell you a little bit about Hartmut Hegler first? Yes that would be that would

00:47:16.300 be great thanks Zoe. Okay so Hartmut Hegler, Herr Hegler, was born in 1946. He was a retired

00:47:24.020 Protestant pastor in the church district of Oona in the church of Westphalia, Germany and between

00:47:29.480 1982 to 2009 he was teaching the subject of religion in a vocational training college in

00:47:35.140 Una. Questions of his students about the persecution of witches were the impulse for

00:47:39.460 his studies on this subject which led to him writing books and then holding lectures. He is

00:47:44.120 fighting still now for the exoneration of the victims of the witchcraft trials, that they should

00:47:49.640 be given back their dignity as human beings and as Christians and that there should be places of

00:47:54.360 remembrance to give witness to their fate. There have been many reports in the media about his

00:47:59.000 activities and we'll put links to that for you on the website as well so you can read up on what

00:48:04.260 Herr Haegler has actually done. We asked Herr Haegler when he started his campaign. Yes so he

00:48:11.320 first started his campaign in 2010 and he learned about the efforts of women in the German towns of

00:48:18.280 Eschbeg and Hofheim in the state of Hesse. After having made efforts for many years these women

00:48:24.340 finally succeeded in convincing the council of their respective towns to exonerate the victims

00:48:30.100 of the witchcraft trials and to inaugurate a memorial. Since then, Herr Haegler has been

00:48:35.440 propagating this issue in his books and his speeches. We asked him why he started his campaign.

00:48:42.380 So Herr Haegler studied the old protocols of the court hearings and learned that in spite of heavy

00:48:47.100 torture, many of the accused women and men in the witchcraft trials actually denied their guilt,

00:48:51.760 but on the contrary confessed their faith in God right up until death.

00:48:56.520 Heigler said,

00:48:57.360 I was shocked that they were tortured and executed in the name of my Jesus,

00:49:00.900 the centre of my Christian belief,

00:49:02.780 as Jesus himself was tortured and executed even though he was innocent.

00:49:06.960 Thus Heigler came to the decision

00:49:08.480 that the martyrdom of the victims of the witchcraft trials

00:49:11.360 should finally be acknowledged by the public and by the churches.

00:49:14.540 Those sentenced people should no longer be regarded as sinners but as saints

00:49:18.060 and Heigler pleaded that especially the churches should raise their voices

00:49:21.580 in the issue of these innocently executed people.

00:49:25.200 We asked Herr Hegler, what are the aims of his campaign?

00:49:29.000 Well, Hegler and a group of other citizens demand that 25,000 women, men and children

00:49:35.000 who were executed as alleged witches in Germany

00:49:37.840 should be given back their dignity as human beings and as Christians.

00:49:41.060 For modern science, it is evident that the convicted people

00:49:44.040 could not have committed the crimes that they were accused of.

00:49:46.600 The verdicts of the courts never have been annihilated or revised,

00:49:49.920 nor the victims rehabilitated it is long overdue to exonerate them at least on moral grounds

00:49:55.540 it seems nearly impossible to discuss the matter on judicial grounds as for example many historical

00:50:01.280 documents have been lost it's slightly different to in scotland isn't it claire yes i mean what

00:50:06.000 we're asking for is a pardon for everyone that was convicted under the act so we're simply asking

00:50:12.260 for a broad brush approach to be taken in that regard if everyone is who was convicted under

00:50:17.300 that act is acquitted then everyone who was affected by it will be acquitted. And we're

00:50:22.240 also asking for an apology for everyone who was accused under that act because many people died

00:50:28.000 before they ever got to a trial, they never got to conviction. So that's why it's important we're

00:50:32.300 asking not only for a pardon but also for an apology. We also asked Herr Hegler how does he

00:50:37.780 promote his campaign? He answered that it's mainly by telephone and by writing letters and emails to

00:50:43.440 mayors and councils of towns to pastors and elders of the respective churches. He also basically goes

00:50:49.360 on lots of lecture tours in various different places and designed a poster exhibition which

00:50:55.880 has toured in many towns as well, raising awareness and educating people about it. He also encourages

00:51:02.040 church services to be held in memory of the victims of the witchcraft trials and with a group of other

00:51:09.360 people who sympathize with the issue. Herr Hegler took part in large church assemblies,

00:51:14.520 Kirchentag, of the Protestant and Catholic churches presenting these issues and conducted

00:51:20.140 a church service in memory of the victims of the witchcraft trials during the ecumenical Kirchentag

00:51:25.080 in Munich in 2010. And we'll put links to all these different things because there's quite a

00:51:29.800 lot of links here that you might be interested in. Yeah, absolutely. Some fascinating stuff.

00:51:34.260 We asked Herr Hegler, when he started his campaign, did people agree with him immediately or was there resistance and objection to it?

00:51:43.360 He said that actually there'd been lots of encouragement and approval in many towns.

00:51:47.160 However, there has been resistance and objection.

00:51:50.020 Some towns fear disadvantages for tourism if this dark period of the history of the town is covered and talked about.

00:51:56.680 In other areas, politicians argue that there are more important topics to deal with.

00:52:00.760 and some church leaders feared there'd be a negative image consequence for the church.

00:52:05.780 We asked, how successful has the campaign been?

00:52:09.240 Herr Haegler said that many city councils and congregations expressed their deep regret

00:52:13.800 and resolved upon exoneration for the victims of the witchcraft trials of their town,

00:52:18.220 and themselves initiated memorials for the victims of those who were persecuted as witches.

00:52:24.660 In other towns, there's been no response at all or fierce rejection.

00:52:28.740 We said when we were talking about the memorials that we understood that lots of memorials had

00:52:34.060 been set up through his great work in Germany and we asked what are the memorials like? Are

00:52:38.520 they statues? Are they pieces of art? He said that they've been designed very differently in

00:52:43.880 each town, I suppose depending on what each town wanted to do. Herr Haegler has posted collections

00:52:48.940 of more than 100 respective photos from Germany and Europe and Salem and the USA on his website

00:52:54.600 for you to have a look at yourself. We asked Herr Hegler, why do you think it's important that we

00:52:59.880 continue to remember these people that were convicted as witches? Herr Hegler said that we

00:53:04.700 must recognise injustice in the past, otherwise we will not recognise injustice when we encounter it

00:53:09.920 today. We asked, why deal with the rehabilitation of victims of historic witchcraft trials?

00:53:16.160 Interestingly, Herr Hegler said that there are many parallels of persecution of witches

00:53:20.280 nowadays as well so there's the search for scapegoats which can be known as otherization

00:53:25.660 that's been going on all over the history of mankind this happens in society and in everyday

00:53:30.600 life as well in the current days there's also demonization and talking badly about people

00:53:36.020 with examples of violence and mobbing and in fact even torture in some countries there's also the

00:53:41.340 persecution of witches taking place in today's contemporary world for example there are cases

00:53:47.320 that we'll eventually look into in more detail.

00:53:49.580 He says as well, Herr Haegler,

00:53:51.180 that a re-evaluation of the history books is long overdue,

00:53:54.620 that many of the accused in the witchcraft trials

00:53:56.500 denied their guilt in spite of their heavy torture,

00:53:59.220 but confessed their faith in God until death.

00:54:01.820 Their martyrdom should finally be acknowledged

00:54:03.680 by the public and by the churches.

00:54:05.740 Those sentences should no longer be regarded as sinners,

00:54:08.480 but as saints.

00:54:09.640 And especially the churches should raise their voice

00:54:12.320 on the issue of innocently executed people,

00:54:14.720 as the parallels are there with the story of Jesus

00:54:17.060 being tortured and executed even though he was innocent. Mr Herhegler says their suffering has

00:54:22.760 not been in vain if it is remembered by us today in order to fight for more justice and human rights.

00:54:28.220 That's a really really powerful explanation of why it's so important isn't it? Yeah hugely and I think

00:54:33.740 a lot of that is parallel to us. I mean we maybe don't have the same level of interest in the

00:54:39.020 Christian side of it particularly but we are definitely very interested in the side that

00:54:43.600 people are not viewed as being you know sinners in one way of phrasing it and that people are

00:54:48.480 seen as being people that were wrongly convicted and executed. Yeah they were just folk. Exactly

00:54:54.520 exactly. So thank you very much to Herr Hegler for giving us that interview and also providing

00:55:02.420 us links to all that we've spoken about. As I say we will be putting that up on social media so that

00:55:08.260 you can go and look all the sites that he's linked to. I think of a special interest are

00:55:13.080 the links to the memorialisation and the photographs to all the memorials set up are fantastic so

00:55:18.680 hopefully that will give you something interesting to browse. Thanks very much for joining us for

00:55:23.520 episode 12 of the Witches of Scotland podcast. Please do share and rate, tell people about it

00:55:29.920 so that the more people we have following the campaign and supporting it the greater a chance

00:55:33.840 we have of success. Is that us finish this week's podcast Zoe? I think so we just need to do the

00:55:40.380 the thing. Bye. Bye.

00:55:43.840 If you'd like 0.96

00:55:44.620 to learn more about the Witches of Scotland,

00:55:46.740 please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

00:55:49.780 Sign up for our mailing

00:55:50.620 list at www.witchesofscotland.com

00:55:55.060 to keep updated with the campaign.

00:55:57.640 On that site,

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Witches of Scotland - December 13, 2020

CATHERINE MACPHEE ON SYKE, HARTMUT HEGELER ON GERMANY ALEXANDRA MAHER ON “THE CUNNING”

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