00:00:00.200Hi, I'm Clare Mitchell, QC. Welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.
00:00:05.200I'm a lawyer who specialises in miscarriage of justice cases,
00:00:08.740and we're bringing you this podcast because we want to tell you0.61
00:00:11.580about the women who were accused, prosecuted, convicted,
00:00:15.720and ultimately executed as witches in Scotland.
00:00:18.780I'm Zoe Vendetotsi, and I'm a writer who's always had an interest in the witches,
00:00:23.040and I feel that this dark mark against Scotland needs a reckoning.
00:00:26.480The campaign Witches of Scotland wants three things.
00:00:29.600Firstly, a pardon for all those convicted of witchcraft.
00:00:33.220Secondly, an apology for all those who were accused as witches.
00:00:37.420And finally, a national monument in recognition of all those who were affected by this terrible miscarriage of justice.
00:00:44.420Over the forthcoming weeks, we'll be talking to a whole host of experts about the history and the modern day connections to the witches of Scotland.
00:00:52.580Welcome to the Witches of Scotland, episode 13. Can you believe it's only episode 13?
00:00:58.560It's absolutely shocking. I'm amazed actually that we've got 13 episodes that you and I've managed to get together that frequently to record that every week. I'm impressed by us.
00:06:38.440I wanted it to kind of reflect, you know, the truth about Britain, the diversity of Britain.
00:06:43.420And most of all, I wanted it to be about living people as much as dead people.
00:06:47.860So I wanted it to be about the relationship between the living and the dead, what these places, graveyards and burial sites more generally kind of mean to the people that visit them or kind of tend to them and so forth.
00:07:01.240So it's really about life as much as it is about death. And I think probably even more so about love.
00:07:07.100and how people choose to mark when their loved ones have died.
00:07:11.800Yeah, I mean, that's always an interesting conversation, isn't it?
00:07:14.540How do you say something about that person's life in their death
00:07:18.260by carving words onto stone most of the time?
00:07:23.060A lot of the time we fall back on sincerely felt cliches
00:17:15.980even though they're separated by the curtain between life and death.
00:17:18.920And I was just attracted to it because, again, it's about storytelling for me.
00:17:23.380I wanted to try to explore those stories, the lives of the remarkable and unremarkable people and what they mean to the people left behind.
00:17:30.700So I don't I don't find it morbid at all. And I just think it's one of the big subjects.
00:17:35.040You know, if it's just one of the great subjects of literature, film, art, why would you not want to try to explore it?
00:17:42.840Is how I maybe reply to those people that consider it to be morbid or gloomy.
00:17:46.220And I think one thing is, you know, there was a question of whether or not it was a good idea for a book like this to come out during a global pandemic when a lot of people were dying.
00:17:55.940And the whole idea of death went from being something kind of abstract and theoretical to something that was so much part of our consciousness.
00:18:03.420But I found that people that have read the book often have quite extreme emotional reactions to it.
00:18:07.840and I think that's partly because it's sort of the things that is addressing life and death and
00:18:13.600love and solidarity and the need for community are all things that are very much in the air
00:18:19.000just now so I think it's it's arrived it's been published at the right moment and I don't mean
00:18:23.160that in any sort of um crass kind of commercial way as in I'll sell more books at all I don't
00:18:29.180mean that at all I just mean that sometimes the book you need comes along when you need it
00:18:33.420yeah i mean my dad died quite young i mean i was in my mid-20s with one child and was pregnant with
00:18:39.660another one and you know so i really was very affected by that obviously when he died and
00:18:44.540became quite aware at that point about about thinking about death when you're alive that it's
00:18:49.360really important that you work that out and i went on to work as a writer in residence in a palliative
00:18:53.340care unit which really really drove that home for me how important it is to be thoughtful about what
00:18:59.160your death is and you know as much of a cliche as it sounds to tie up your affairs as much as you
00:19:03.840can and make sure that people know that you care about them and that your story I'm very much in
00:19:09.240agreement with you about us being natural storytellers and that that's super important
00:19:12.920and one of the things that I did was to help people to write their story you know at the end
00:19:17.460of their life and I think that's so important so I agree with you I think that this time just now
00:19:22.820is a really important time for a book like yours because it is important that we think about it
00:19:26.980And not in a gloomy way, and I think you're quite right about that as well,
00:19:30.640but in a way of thinking, well, you know, how do I want to be marked?
00:19:34.160You know, do I want to do what other people have done?
00:19:36.340You know, what is my meaning to other people and so on?
00:19:38.640Which I think is why it's so important that it ties for us back in
00:19:41.900with this idea of a memorial for the witches,
00:19:44.120because there should be a mark for things like that,
00:19:48.400You know, and that obviously is a horrible, dark part of our history.
00:19:51.800But I think it's really important that we reckon with things like that.
00:19:54.620I was wondering, as you were doing the research, were there any memorials that you came, sorry, sort of grave markers or anything in cemeteries that you came across that you were surprised by, that, you know, were quite unusual markers?
00:20:07.260The one that springs to mind for me is the grave of an 11-year-old boy called Nnedi Mera, who had died just a few years ago in a riding accident.
00:20:19.160Now, he is buried in Kensal Green Cemetery in London, which is a really important cemetery in the history of cemeteries in Britain,
00:20:27.300because it was the first one in the whole of the country that was of that type that we now recognise as a Victorian garden cemetery.
00:20:35.920Previous to that, people were buried in churchyards.
00:20:39.220But during the Victorian era, law was passed,
00:20:41.620which meant that you couldn't be buried in churchyards anymore
00:20:52.860So I went there because I was aware of its historic importance.
00:20:55.860And I was looking forward to looking at the great Victorian tombs,
00:20:59.780even though they're very run down now.
00:21:01.320There's some extraordinary things there.
00:21:02.780But what I didn't expect to find was a tomb almost in the Victorian style in terms of its scale, but much bigger than anything that even they had imagined.
00:21:16.060This thing is made of concrete and steel, and it kind of reflects iconography from Christianity and Islam.
00:21:24.700And it's all to this little boy, Mehdi Mera.
00:21:28.320He's got a little life-size bronze statue to him sitting on a bench inside it.
00:21:35.800It's essentially a little garden inside, and people can go and sit there underneath this sort of canvas and sit and just spend a little quiet time.
00:21:43.440and I just had no expectation whatsoever of encountering that.
00:21:47.540I'd never heard of it, but I was amazed by it
00:21:50.460and I wanted to find it more, so I got in touch with the family
00:21:52.960and his father, Mr. Mehra, who's an Iranian businessman,
00:21:57.560was kind enough to come and sit with me there
00:22:00.160and talk to me about the sort of deep feelings of loss and grief
00:22:03.760that had prompted him to have a vision for this particular monument.
00:22:08.780And, you know, I think a lot of it is just like we were talking about before.
00:22:11.780you love someone so deeply so intensely so extravagantly that you want to in some way
00:22:19.640mark that they live that they walk the earth and and that's the way he's particularly chosen to do
00:22:24.820it is in this very grand style so I was absolutely blown away by that particular tomb I was hoping
00:22:33.060that you'd mentioned that one because it was just such a it's just so moving the idea of that
00:22:38.180because I think you write in the book as well that the father initially spent a lot of his time
00:22:42.560sitting there, didn't he? Yeah, I mean, they run a, I think it's a property business. And he
00:22:48.520essentially just completely stepped back from all business affairs for a very long time, at least a
00:22:54.340year, I think more, and just went and sat there every day. I mean, first of all, he was entirely
00:22:59.020involved in the design and construction of it. So he absolutely drove that. It was really, I think
00:23:06.480it's fair to say almost obsessional what he was doing there I think he talks about that in the
00:23:10.660interview but then after it was constructed yeah he would kind of go there and sit and just kind of
00:23:15.700be near physically and I guess spiritually near to his little boy that he had lost so it was a
00:23:22.740real privilege to be able to kind of sit there with him right next to his son's grave and kind
00:23:27.320of talk about the most painful experience of his life but also the extraordinary tribute and active
00:23:35.160remembrance that he decided to create? One of the things that really, I suppose, upset me about
00:23:41.140women in the past, the women and men that were killed as witches, were the obliteration of them
00:23:46.480so that there wasn't anywhere for family to go to remember them. Indeed, remembering them in any
00:23:53.340active way would probably result in accusations of witchcraft against them as well. The ongoing
00:24:00.560effect of there being a lack of a physical place that people could go we talk about now if people
00:24:08.740are cremated the sprinkling of the ashes in a place and the experience of people going and
00:24:14.560going to a place and remembering that person in a place the abject horror of the fact that these
00:24:19.900people had relatives who were in fact killed as witches in their local area and then burned
00:24:28.020And where they lived would have been an additional horror for those people left to them, because not only did they know that their family member not got a Christian burial, they also had to be at the place where the horror took place.
00:24:40.260And that must be the very antithesis of a beautifully tended grave.0.84
00:24:46.660Yeah, it's absolutely right what you say.
00:24:48.620And perhaps I haven't really considered that fully before, that the people left behind have to kind of live with the horror of being in the place where it all happened, unless they move, I guess.
00:24:57.060I don't know how easily that was done at that time, but of course, I think that's the thing about the kind of the witchcraft panic, the witchcraft era, if you like, it's become so mediated through popular culture representations of it and become kind of cartoonish that the actual intensity of the atrocity and the body horror can very easily be forgotten, I think.
00:25:20.380And this was, of course, a time when people believed in bodily resurrection.
00:25:25.920So at the last judgment, your body would rise up and then you would be judged and hopefully you would go on to go to heaven.
00:25:31.980But if you didn't have a body, then you couldn't be.
00:25:34.640And I think probably that is why the idea of having some kind of national memorial to the people, women and some men who are accused of witchcraft is so important.
00:25:45.560I mean, I talked about Lily's stone being in some ways a kind of air sacs memorial.
00:25:52.280And while that is true, that's become what it is.
00:26:26.880As a member of the public, if I was to see something like that, whether it was at Toryburn or wherever it is that you would cite such a thing,
00:26:33.520you know, for me, it would be, I guess, a symbol of pity and sorrow and I guess national repentance in some ways.
00:26:42.280but also a demonstration of the fact that justice doesn't have a sell-by date
00:26:46.720so that you can apologise and you can think back compassionately towards that time
00:26:52.040in a way that is very, very visible and makes a statement to the public
00:26:56.420and says something about, hopefully, who we are as people now.
00:27:00.620I think that's absolutely hit the nail on the head there, Peter. Claire?
00:27:04.360Yeah, no, absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree with you.
00:27:07.460I just feel so strongly when you say justice doesn't have a sell-by date.
00:27:12.280When people say, what's the point now in trying to memorialise these women or pardon them?
00:30:20.400And it shows how beautifully it can be done.
00:30:23.240And it has attracted worldwide attention and it memorialises the women by having their names written on the actual stone itself.
00:30:34.480And as Zoe said earlier on, sometimes we don't have names.
00:30:37.920Sometimes we just have entries in books that say some witches and then a date and then the number of executions that there were.
00:30:45.640So we don't even have those sorts of details.
00:30:47.980So I suppose my answer is I'd be happy for it to be anywhere in Scotland as long as it does its job, which is properly memorialising these women and men without tipping over into something that's just there for tourists to come and visit or for people to come and see, expecting to be able to buy pointy hats and those sorts of things.
00:31:11.860Yeah. I mean, I do think that that idea of having what you were saying about Norway there,
00:31:16.300the idea of having names where you have them, I would certainly favour something like that,
00:31:22.180because I just think those names are so important.
00:31:24.200And where you don't have the names, at least have the dates or the information that you do have.
00:31:34.540We're delighted to welcome Kate Stewart, who's a local councillor in Fife
00:31:38.760and a founding member of Remembering Accused Witches of Scotland.
00:32:36.320So tell us what it was that you did that started the campaign that Remembering Accused Witches of Scotland are currently undertaking.
00:32:44.180Well, as I say, Lillis is a local lady in the area.
00:32:48.560The only thing that commemorated her was the street names.
00:32:52.920There is two street names, a new house in development, well, a recent house in development.
00:32:58.000And one is Logan Road, which is probably after Alan Logan, who persecuted Lillis.
00:33:05.640This is where it gets interesting. The other street is Adia Road. And it's the name Adia that maybe should be Adie. But somebody somehow changed that into Adia. I don't know if it's a softer sound than they wanted or what, but it's a question mark is why they named it Adia instead of Adie.
00:33:28.280And do you know for a fact it's after the person that persecuted her, Mr Logan, and it is Adie after Lilius Adie?
00:33:38.320Do you know that for a fact or do you just think the coincidence is too great? It must be.
00:33:43.160No, because when streets are getting named, local people and councillors, they get asked for recommendations for names.
00:33:50.940you know I've done a few myself but there is a record because I spoke to the archaeologist
00:33:57.840Douglas Spears about this and I think there is an actual record of who named the street and maybe
00:34:05.600the reason why is there as well but there is a record by the old district council archives so
00:34:13.320it is there and Douglas had spoke about it at one point and that's how I know I don't know why they
00:34:18.700said Adia and it's only the E and the A that changes that and to me it should have been Aidy
00:34:24.240but the reason is I don't know but there is records there that we could find and have a look1.00
00:34:30.100at maybe why it was done if that's the case it's another wee injustice to the women you know that0.76
00:34:36.480they've taken her name and for whatever reason not given it to her properly just changed it in some1.00
00:34:42.960way. That is my suspicion, basically. And it's also, I suppose, you might say it's pretty
00:34:50.180odd that Mr Logan is given his place, given that he was so keen to have so many women
00:34:57.120prosecuted as witches. What was Logan's role? Was Logan a churchman? Yes, yes, he was a
00:35:05.300churchman. So it was him that drove the persecution of the women? Yeah, he could pick out somebody
00:35:11.700at the church service and accuse them of being a witch and then get them arrested that's the power
00:35:17.720he had yeah yeah i mean we hear some pretty crazy stuff on this program when we speak to people but
00:35:23.000the idea that one man could just basically point a woman out and just say right he's a witch and
00:35:28.760that was that was it that was all he had to do yeah it could look people in the eyes and tell
00:35:34.600that if they were a witch or not that to me makes him sound himself quite supernatural and a bit
00:35:39.820you know a bit strange and people maybe should have turned that around and accused him of being
00:35:45.480one you know looking at that um when he was accusing other women of doing that and he was
00:35:51.380actually doing it sell you're right he was quite prolific at identifying women as witches in the
00:35:56.920local area wasn't he oh he was yeah yeah is it 31 32 different women there's 32 in curis curis alone
00:36:05.440or 32. The time before, I'm actually just reading up on 1666, so that was just about
00:36:14.26040 years before Lillis, the seven women in Toryburn got burnt, strangled and burnt at
00:36:21.020the stake in Toryburn. So Lillis's name had been associated with him as well. When she
00:36:27.260was accused, she referred, instead of incriminating other women, she spoke about women who had
00:36:32.160been killed anyway so that they couldn't do any more and one that i'm checking up the news
00:36:37.980grizel anderson the research has all been done and it's a woman who's emailed me and i'm going
00:36:44.220to email her back and she's she's done the research and it was a it was a relation so
00:36:50.020she's a descendant a grizel anderson so there's more of the story where lillies knew as well