Witches of Scotland - EPISODE 18 IAIN MC SPORRAN QC ON ROBERT BURNS DEPICTION OF WITCHES IN TAM O SHANTER

00:00:00.200 Hi, I'm Clare Mitchell, QC. Welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:05.220 I'm a lawyer who specialises in miscarriage of justice cases,

00:00:08.740 and we're bringing you this podcast because we want to tell you about the women who were accused,

00:00:13.800 prosecuted, convicted, and ultimately executed as witches in Scotland.

00:00:18.780 I'm Zoe Vendetotsi, and I'm a writer who's always had an interest in the witches,

00:00:23.040 and I feel that this dark mark against Scotland needs a reckoning.

00:00:26.500 The campaign Witches of Scotland wants three things.

00:00:29.600 Firstly, a pardon for all those convicted of witchcraft.

00:00:33.240 Secondly, an apology for all those who were accused as witches.

00:00:37.420 And finally, a national monument in recognition of all those who were affected by this terrible miscarriage of justice.

00:00:44.420 Over the forthcoming weeks, we'll be talking to a whole host of experts about the history and the modern day connections to the witches of Scotland.

00:00:53.220 Hello and welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:56.280 this is episode 18 and we're delighted this week to be joined by one of scotland's leading

00:01:01.480 prosecutors ian mcsporen who as well as being marvelous in court is also an aficionado of

00:01:07.660 burns and is going to be talking to us today at this timely point with burns night coming up

00:01:11.940 about tamashanter and specifically the witch section in tamashanter so we're going to have

00:01:17.640 that today as our guest so we're looking forward to that but before we do that we'd like to talk

00:01:22.240 about the three witches that we've got for this week to remember them and have their names said

00:01:27.020 so we can think of them as people so the first person we've got this week is Florence Sim now 0.69

00:01:32.720 she was prosecuted in 1650 she was from Kirkleston and she was tried in Dalkeith she was a female

00:01:39.540 she was unmarried and the outcome is not known but there is a specific reason why you've chosen

00:01:44.700 Florence for this week isn't there Claire? Yes what happened was I was scrolling through Instagram

00:01:49.860 and I came across as I do on my feed the Medicine Spoon Memorial and I saw a beautiful spoon that

00:01:56.980 had been stitched for Florence Sim. Her name's spelt slightly differently and you find that in

00:02:04.260 these old records that they're sort of adaptations of names. We have her as Florence Sim and they

00:02:10.380 have it as Florencia, Florentia Sim but they are both the women from the same area who had a trial

00:02:17.440 at the same time in 1650. But in posting the Medicine Spoon Memorial, Karen has written

00:02:24.560 underneath it, Valentia Sim, I wonder what you were like, the colour of your hair, what made you

00:02:30.100 giggle, what were you good at, the colour of your eyes, were you a mother, what's your story? Thank

00:02:35.560 you for this spoon, for remembering Flo, her name has been brought into the light. So I just thought

00:02:40.900 it was lovely that I saw that really pretty spoon and thought we could remember her as well. And

00:02:45.820 also to provide a reminder to people who have got any of the spoons and I am one of those included

00:02:51.900 that you have you got your spoon to finish as well I've not either no I need to I need to get

00:02:59.640 on with it yeah well we do need to go on with it because now Karen's moved to the next part

00:03:04.580 of her work which is bringing together all the different spoons to make it one item and she had

00:03:11.120 set a time limit for returning the work but then she realized that setting a time limit she sent

00:03:16.440 felt kind of artificial so she is just going to allow the spoons to come in over a period of time

00:03:23.620 after the time limit and she's still going to include them all so if you do have any memorial

00:03:27.980 spoon that you want to get back to the memorial spoon memorial just a wee reminder to help you to

00:03:33.940 get your spoon finished i'm almost finished mine oh very good you're you're on it i will i'll have

00:03:39.700 I'll go with mine this afternoon.

00:03:41.200 Okay.

00:03:42.220 The next person we have is a man this week,

00:03:45.440 and it's Thomas Payton.

00:03:47.260 He was tried in November 1650 in Dumfries.

00:03:52.340 Now, he was married, and it says here,

00:03:55.500 trial executed, which I presume means that he was killed.

00:03:59.320 And again, just a reminder that in Scotland,

00:04:02.020 it was 85% of the witches, so-called witches,

00:04:05.940 that were executed, were female,

00:04:07.740 and it was about 80% through Europe.

00:04:09.980 So it was a slightly higher,

00:04:11.220 5% higher rate of women in Scotland

00:04:13.320 as opposed to the rest of Europe.

00:04:15.100 So that was Thomas Paton.

00:04:16.460 And then thirdly, we've got Margaret Porteus

00:04:19.620 who gave a confession,

00:04:20.940 which Claire, you're going to read out, aren't you?

00:04:22.700 Yes, we have some note

00:04:24.840 on the confession of Margaret Porteus

00:04:26.640 and Margaret Porteus was one of the women

00:04:28.920 who was alleged to have been a witch

00:04:30.620 in the Witches of Libertine trial of 1661.

00:04:34.340 and Margaret was said to have made a confession and I'll read out here it says Margaret Porteus

00:04:40.760 confessed about four years since that the devil appeared to her in her own house about 10 o'clock

00:04:46.880 at night in the likeness of a man and bade her renounce her baptism and be his servant and she

00:04:53.320 should have all the pleasures of the earth and she did renounce her baptism and promised to be

00:04:58.860 servant and since he's deleted several others now i'm not quite sure zoe what that last bit refers 0.99

00:05:06.680 to and since he's deleted several others but we see the recurring theme there zoe yeah of women

00:05:14.720 having to renounce their baptism that's the important thing about yeah that women couldn't

00:05:20.180 be sworn to the devil having been baptized so there must be some way around that and the way

00:05:25.540 of renouncing their their baptism although here it doesn't actually say how it was carried out

00:05:32.040 it just said she renounced her baptism we know the whole story that we've had before about who

00:05:37.120 places whose whether or not it's the devil places his hand on the head or the feet of the woman or

00:05:42.700 whether it's the woman that place their own hand on their head and foot and remember we had someone

00:05:47.360 recently write into us and and shows the book where it says that the woman put their hand on

00:05:53.820 their head and their hand on their foot and i thought oh well i was definitely wrong and then

00:05:58.520 i saw a picture of lilius ade and a description of what she had described of the rouncing of her

00:06:05.280 baptism and it was a picture of the devil holding her by her head and her foot so i think even then

00:06:12.280 there was confusion about how that happened and that illustration that you saw that's from those

00:06:18.220 times it's not a recent illustration is it it's a it's a very old one so it's an interpretation of

00:06:23.320 then yeah it was an interpretation of course that person could have interpreted it wrongly like me

00:06:28.840 and thought oh it's the devil that does that when it's the women themselves also we need to remember

00:06:34.020 the fact that probably there there probably wasn't a devil there probably wasn't a devil and these

00:06:39.880 were probably just women and there was no devil and they made it up to save themselves and it

00:06:44.100 became a narrative that was told socially and spread and people knew that that was what you

00:06:48.420 said in your confession. Yeah absolutely so if you were dancing with the devil then you would

00:06:53.720 know that you had to renounce your your baptism that that was something that you had to say

00:06:57.880 but so the three people you remember today are Florence Sim, Thomas Payton and Margaret Porteus.

00:07:04.300 so now we go over to Ian McSborne QC who's going to be talking to us about Tam O'Shanter and the

00:07:19.780 witches therein we are absolutely delighted to bring to you today one of Scotland's most

00:07:27.880 eminent QCs. He worked as defence counsel but latterly has worked for many years as a senior

00:07:35.320 prosecuting QC. You might recognise him if you recognise his voice, you might recognise it

00:07:41.440 from his recent role as star of the BAFTA award winning The Trial where Ian was the prosecutor.

00:07:49.120 Amongst his many talents is an interest in the Bard and he is an aficionado of Robert Burns.

00:07:56.240 The reason that we have him on to speak to us today is because he is going to speak to us today

00:08:02.860 about what we at Witches of Scotland are most interested in, and that's the recording of histories of people

00:08:09.680 and the way in this particular case that the Bard recorded a fictional meeting between Tam and a number of witches.

00:08:17.700 Welcome, Ian, to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:08:20.960 Well, good morning, Clare and Zoe and everyone who's listening.

00:08:24.340 Claire will be horrified if I point out that she neglected to introduce me by my full name

00:08:28.800 because she got flustered in her first take.

00:08:31.320 So I'll do that.

00:08:32.420 Ian looks foreign to you, see.

00:08:33.660 I'd rather I'm Ian, so she's introduced me as Ian, and that's absolutely fine.

00:08:37.020 She also introduced me as a star of a BAFTA award-winning documentary.

00:08:41.640 It would be splitting hairs to point out that it's a double BAFTA award-winning documentary.

00:08:48.160 I'll set out my stall there, and it's all downhill from here.

00:08:51.080 So I'm very pleased to have been asked to contribute to this fascinating series of podcasts on a subject which is completely new to me, but which I have found very interesting, informative, educational, and perhaps to an extent transformative with my views as to what should be done about historical wrongs and whether we should trouble ourselves to remedy them.

00:09:12.180 And I've come very firmly to the view, thanks to the work of Claire and Zoe and others, that we should indeed remedy them and do something about it.

00:09:19.400 So if the podcast has got one convert, then it's me, and I'm therefore very pleased to contribute.

00:09:27.340 I'm not, however, going to contribute about the dreadful side of the persecution of witches,

00:09:33.960 rather the relatively entertaining aspect as we come towards Burns Night of his epic masterpiece,

00:09:40.720 Tango Shanta.

00:09:42.180 And it's right to say I'm an aficionado of Burns, not an expert.

00:09:45.740 So if anyone picks over this podcast and points out many things I get wrong, they're welcome to do so.

00:09:51.360 I won't be at all offended.

00:09:52.980 Since we're at Burns' season and since we're talking about witches, I'll start by starting with Burns.

00:09:58.740 We know something about Burns' upbringing and history from an autobiographical letter he wrote in 1787,

00:10:05.100 which set out his life to that point.

00:10:08.320 And for our purposes, what's important is he tells us,

00:10:10.800 In my infant and boyish days, too, I owed much to an old woman who resided in the family, 0.93

00:10:16.780 remarkable for her ignorance, credulity, and superstition. 0.65

00:10:20.660 She had, I suppose, the largest collection in the country of tales and songs concerning 0.94

00:10:24.680 divils, ghosts, fairies, brownies, witches, warlocks, spunkies, kelpies, elf candles,

00:10:31.780 deadlights, wraiths, apparitions, cantrips, giants, enchanted towers, dragons, and other

00:10:37.580 trumpery so there we have it in 1787 the word trumpery was associated with ignorance credulity

00:10:43.820 and superstition who would have thought it he goes on this cultivated the latent seeds of poetry

00:10:48.780 but had so strong an effect on my imagination that to this hour in my nocturnal rambles

00:10:53.940 i sometimes keep a sharp lookout in suspicious places and though nobody can be more skeptical

00:10:59.220 than i am in such matters yet it often takes an effort philosophy to shake off these idle

00:11:05.000 terrors. And so we may take it that whilst Burns was a man of the Scottish

00:11:09.920 Enlightenment, inspired by it and part of it, the rational, illogical, the

00:11:15.600 empirical, it may be that he was never able completely to shake off those

00:11:19.820 terrors and that perhaps renders Tam O'Shantar all the more powerful and

00:11:23.540 convincing because maybe he had some residual relief in the truth of the

00:11:28.880 scenes he was describing. I won't pretend that that's philosophy or theory that's

00:11:34.000 people have been tested. But he comes from an upbringing in which a very important source

00:11:39.820 of inspiration to him was this woman, Betty Davidson, who was essentially a part of the

00:11:45.820 extended family. His mother, Agnes Brown, too, was of the folk tradition and the stories

00:11:52.680 of that time. So he had a lot of that coming into him, as well as the education which was

00:11:57.320 provided to him by his father. So he's learning French and Latin and great literature, but he's

00:12:03.680 also learning the other side of life and that undoubtedly combined in much of his work and

00:12:10.460 certainly in Tamashanta. The story for those unfamiliar with it can perhaps be best summarised

00:12:17.960 in a prose version which he provided at the request of a man called Francis Grose, an antiquarian

00:12:24.300 who asked him for any ghost stories he may know connected to Alloway Kirk for a book which Grose

00:12:30.540 had planned and Burns replied saying he had two or three stories one of which he says and I'm

00:12:37.180 summarizing this so as not to be too tedious but he says a story which I can prove to be equally

00:12:41.980 authentic was as follows when a market day in the town of Eyre a farmer from Carrick had been

00:12:47.380 detained by his business till by the time he reached Alloway it was the wizard hour between

00:12:52.280 night and morning though he was terrified by a blaze streaming from the curb he couldn't be

00:12:57.340 advanced on his road. He was surprised and entertained to see a dance of witches merrily

00:13:02.480 footing it around with their city blaggard master who was keeping them alive with the sound of his

00:13:07.320 bagpipe. The ladies were all in their smocks and one of them happening unluckily to have a smock 0.99

00:13:12.760 which was considerably too short to answer all the purpose of that piece of press. He involuntarily 0.56

00:13:17.660 burst out with a loud laugh, wheel up in Maggie with a short sack and instantly spurred the force

00:13:23.520 to the doorway of his feet.

00:13:25.660 I need not mention that universally

00:13:27.440 know the fact that no diabolical power

00:13:29.480 can pursue you beyond the middle of a running stream.

00:13:32.680 Against the odds, he reached

00:13:33.700 the middle of the arch of the bridge. 0.99

00:13:35.660 The pursuing vengeful hags were so close 1.00

00:13:37.680 at his heels that one of them actually sprung

00:13:39.580 to seize him, but it was too late.

00:13:42.180 Nothing was on her side of the stream

00:13:43.600 but the horse's tail, which immediately 0.99

00:13:45.500 gave way to her infernal grip.

00:13:48.460 However, the unsightly, 0.96

00:13:49.940 tail-less condition of the vigorous steed

00:13:51.660 close to the last hour of the noble preacher's life, awful warning to the Carrick farmers

00:13:56.080 not to stay too late in their markets.

00:13:59.840 So it's from that simple tale, which you may have heard from the lady I mentioned, or otherwise,

00:14:06.180 that he created one of the greatest narrative poems in the English, or perhaps any language,

00:14:13.720 Tamoshanta tale.

00:14:15.400 What I like about what you've told me is, I hadn't ever thought till this moment that

00:14:20.420 the story of Tam O'Shanta I'm thinking about who would have come up with such a story why they

00:14:26.040 would have done so and it seemed to me that the women waiting at home for their husbands to come

00:14:30.180 home would be well to do to give them a warning that they couldn't come home too late or they 0.99

00:14:35.240 might be assailed by devils and witches it perhaps came from the women of the household

00:14:40.080 to ensure their husbands got home on time well that's that's a possibility that as you know

00:14:46.940 early on in the poem we have Kate's prophecy as to what will happen to Tam if he does not behave

00:14:52.920 himself. So we'll move on to the poem now that we know where it comes from. We start off with a

00:14:58.720 description of air on a market day, people concluding their business and then repairing

00:15:04.620 to the hostelries, one of whom is Tam of Shantar Farm, Tam of Shantar, and he decides to enjoy

00:15:12.240 himself with a bit too much beer in great company there's song there's chat he's chatting up the

00:15:18.980 landlady he's having a great time with his old pal suitor johnny but of course we're reminded 0.87

00:15:24.720 right at the outset that at haem there sits our sulky sullen dame gathering her brows like

00:15:31.660 gathering storm nursing her wrath to keep it warm i think that's a tremendous image and it's one 0.70

00:15:37.820 which I've certainly been responsible for

00:15:40.200 at times in the past.

00:15:41.980 We go on.

00:15:43.300 The author in the preamble reminds Tam,

00:15:45.540 O Tam, hast thou but been so wise

00:15:47.240 as ta'en thy ain wife Kate's advice? 0.98

00:15:49.780 She told thee weel thou was a skellum, 0.99

00:15:52.580 a blethering, blustering, drunken blellum 0.99

00:15:54.760 that frae November till October

00:15:56.220 ye market day thou wasna sober.

00:15:59.260 It was on she prophesied that late or soon

00:16:01.640 thou would be found,

00:16:03.540 keep hooned in dune, 0.99

00:16:04.660 or catched the warlocks in the muck

00:16:06.960 by Alois

00:16:08.200 of The Honking Cup.

00:16:10.080 And it turns out

00:16:10.680 something very similar

00:16:12.300 is exactly what happens

00:16:13.520 and not for the first time

00:16:15.040 the wife was to be right. 0.93

00:16:18.240 So we then move on

00:16:19.980 to the description

00:16:20.580 of the light

00:16:21.600 and the noise

00:16:22.400 and the hilarity

00:16:23.600 in the pub itself.

00:16:25.940 I'm not going to

00:16:26.700 go through all of that

00:16:27.900 because we want to get

00:16:28.760 to the bit

00:16:29.160 where the witches are

00:16:30.020 but the tone at this stage

00:16:31.660 is of great enjoyment

00:16:33.160 and great fun

00:16:33.880 and then the tone

00:16:35.200 changes gently

00:16:36.340 and then quite dramatically changes first of all pleasures are like poppies spread you seize the

00:16:41.880 flower its gloomy shed or like the snow falls in the river a moment white then melts forever

00:16:46.680 or like the borealis race that flip there you can point their place or like the rainbow's lovely

00:16:52.040 form you're vanishing amid the storm may man can tether time nor tide the hour approaches

00:16:58.420 calm one night, so

00:17:00.180 the hilarity's over, he's got to get home

00:17:02.740 at some point. And then

00:17:04.440 this line, a brilliant

00:17:06.700 description, one that actually raises the hairs

00:17:08.760 on the back of my neck.

00:17:10.460 That hour, O night's black

00:17:12.640 arched the keystone,

00:17:14.980 that dreary hour he mounts his beast

00:17:16.800 in, and sick a night he

00:17:18.680 tacks the road in, as ne'er poor sinner

00:17:20.680 was abroad in. 0.92

00:17:22.840 So, that hour, O night's

00:17:24.640 black arched the keystone, I think is a fantastic

00:17:26.720 way of describing the darkest hour of the middle of the night and we go back we go to the the arch

00:17:33.200 of another physical bridge at the end of the poem of course it's introduced there as a concept

00:17:38.640 and there's another beautiful piece i think which you think about it just gives you the shivers

00:17:44.560 describing the stormy night he's going out in the wind blew as to go on its last the rattling

00:17:49.200 showers rose on the blast the speedy gleams the darkness swallowed loud deep and land the thunder

00:17:54.560 bellowed, that night

00:17:56.400 a child might understand

00:17:58.300 the deal had business on its hand.

00:18:01.600 So, from the hilarity

00:18:03.200 in the pulp, we've now got

00:18:04.360 a distinctly less cheerful

00:18:06.620 scene. It goes on to

00:18:08.560 describe the journey

00:18:09.960 that Tam embarks upon on his

00:18:12.700 loyal mayor,

00:18:14.660 Meg or Maggie, and

00:18:16.780 he's very well aware in the

00:18:18.620 darkness of the possibility of

00:18:20.760 ghosts being in

00:18:22.640 the air. And before we even reach

00:18:24.560 The church, his journey takes him across the ford where in the snow the chaplain's moored

00:18:30.480 and past the birds of Meeklestein where drunken Charlie Brack's neck bane

00:18:33.660 and through the winds and by the cairn where hunters found a murdered bairn

00:18:37.380 and near the thorn abound the well where Mungo's mother hanged herself.

00:18:42.100 Even before we get to the haunted church, his journey takes him past a place

00:18:47.020 where a man has smothered in the snow, a man has accidentally broken his neck,

00:18:52.340 a murdered child has been found

00:18:54.480 and the woman has killed herself

00:18:56.260 so we're not

00:18:58.240 in a happy place anymore

00:18:59.780 then he sees the most astonishing

00:19:02.520 thing, when glimmering through

00:19:04.520 the groaning trees, Kirk Alloway seemed

00:19:06.520 in a breeze, through Ilkabur

00:19:08.620 the beams were glancing and loud

00:19:10.580 resounded, mirth and dancing

00:19:12.940 an astonishing scene to come

00:19:14.720 across at what was already a ruined

00:19:16.660 churchyard beyond his journey

00:19:18.580 we now find the importance

00:19:20.800 of alcohol in the whole thing he's got very drunk obviously at the pub and what on earth would make

00:19:25.760 him go on into the church rather than pass it but inspiring old john barleycorn whiskey what dangers

00:19:32.560 thou can smack his scorn with tippany we fear nae evil so with beer we fear nae evil with us

00:19:38.880 scuba you'll face the devil that's whiskey's so much more inspiring than near beer so on he

00:19:46.000 spurs his horse

00:19:47.340 into the scene

00:19:49.080 and wow

00:19:50.880 so now we get our first glimpse

00:19:55.780 of the witches

00:19:57.060 and I'll simply read

00:19:58.540 in full this key scene

00:20:01.620 warlocks and witches

00:20:03.780 in a dance

00:20:04.500 but hornpipes

00:20:07.780 jigs for spays and reels

00:20:09.240 put life and metal in their heels

00:20:10.700 a winnet bunker in the east

00:20:12.440 their sad old nick in shape of east

00:20:14.900 Housey-type, black, grim, and large

00:20:17.860 Together music was his charge

00:20:19.660 He screwed the pipes and gart them skirral

00:20:21.860 Till roof and rafters added dirral

00:20:23.680 Coffins stood round like open presses 0.66

00:20:26.800 That showed the deed in their last dresses

00:20:29.400 And by some devilish cantrip slight

00:20:32.220 Each in its cold hand held a light

00:20:34.740 By which heroic Tam was able

00:20:37.420 To note upon the hailey table

00:20:39.300 A murderer's bains in jubilee arms

00:20:41.560 Class span long wee unchristened bairns 1.00

00:20:44.340 A thief, new-cutted frae a rape 0.99

00:20:46.520 Wi his last gaspies garded gape 0.99

00:20:48.780 Five tomahawks wi' blood-red rusted

00:20:51.240 Five scimitars wi' murder-crusted 1.00

00:20:53.400 A garter which a babe had strangled 1.00

00:20:56.260 A knife a father's throat had mangled

00:20:58.960 Whom his ain son o' life bereft

00:21:01.100 The grey hairs yet stacked to the heft

00:21:03.640 Three lawyers' terms turned inside out

00:21:06.740 Wi' lies seemed like a beggar's clout 0.99

00:21:09.140 Three priests' hearts, rotten black as muck 1.00

00:21:12.140 lay stinking vile in every nuke 1.00

00:21:14.380 we mere of horrible 0.87

00:21:16.200 in offer which even to name

00:21:18.220 would be unlover

00:21:19.620 now I pause to observe

00:21:22.540 that the description of

00:21:24.380 lawyers' tongues and priests' hearts

00:21:26.040 appears in the original manuscript

00:21:28.080 version of the poem but

00:21:29.520 Burns was encouraged by one of his

00:21:32.400 patrons to delete that

00:21:34.060 and it's very rarely printed

00:21:36.340 now other than as

00:21:38.160 an explanatory marginal note

00:21:40.300 and it's not often

00:21:41.980 recited. It's usually recited

00:21:44.180 if there are lawyers or priests or clergy

00:21:46.280 present to embarrass them, but

00:21:47.940 it perhaps gives an insight into

00:21:50.120 the way which Burns

00:21:52.180 viewed certain members of the legal

00:21:54.100 profession under clergy. One of his

00:21:56.220 very best friends and supporters

00:21:57.940 was a lawyer, so he wasn't against all lawyers.

00:22:00.840 Although Tam O'Shanta is often

00:22:02.020 given as a comic,

00:22:04.020 entertaining piece, it's not that this is a

00:22:05.900 pretty horrific description to see

00:22:08.040 within a church.

00:22:09.760 you forget how unpleasant tamashanta actually is i mean i've i've taught bits of it as an as an

00:22:15.500 english teacher quite a long time ago but i have i have taught bits of it but i think that the bits

00:22:21.180 that the kids actually often enjoy is is what is like the bit you've just read because it's so

00:22:26.080 so gory and grim and it's really over the top there's so you know there's so many items there

00:22:32.360 it's fantastic but you do forget that and it's it's really this is another another aspect of

00:22:37.320 this podcast that's really kind of illuminated to me is we take so many things i think in our

00:22:42.740 scottish culture for granted so we all sort of think you know witches we think tamashant we all

00:22:47.940 did it at primary school most of us at primary school but i i haven't really thought about it

00:22:52.320 and i've not really thought about the two things together properly before you know and if this

00:22:56.820 really does give an indication of the of the fear the the very kind of real sort of belief in the

00:23:03.000 supernatural this really sort of illustrates it for me so clearly it's great to hear you read it

00:23:07.600 actually your your voice is brilliant it's really very effective that's very kind it's true however

00:23:13.760 worth bearing in mind that burns was born in 1759 this poem was written in 1790 yeah the same

00:23:21.460 century as the last witches were executed and an intelligent man like burns had residual

00:23:28.340 superstitions the the ignorant uneducated would have the notion there were mere superstitions

00:23:35.420 there would still be beliefs abroad as to the reality of the spirit world the supernatural and 0.85

00:23:41.880 which is i i'm guessing i'm not a historian so i can't i can't say whether that's absolutely right

00:23:48.200 but it's so close in time we're here in 2021 but this is written so close in time to an era when

00:23:55.060 Your podcast is telling us, your whole website is telling us persecution on a grand scale had only recently been occurring in our country.

00:24:06.280 I don't want to be too serious about it because it is an entertainment above all else.

00:24:11.920 But it's, I think, definitely important to remember just how awful the scenes he's describing are and how they would have resonated more, perhaps, with people of that era than of ours.

00:24:22.820 We're now having the horrors, we're now going to get to the dancing.

00:24:26.600 Before I read this bit, again, for those who maybe don't know the poem,

00:24:30.420 and I'm sure there are plenty of you who know it very well,

00:24:32.840 so I'm sorry if this sounds patronising,

00:24:36.040 but he watches then as the dancing goes on,

00:24:38.920 and the speed of the dancing and the speed that you're forced to narrate the poem

00:24:42.800 explains why the witches become so hot and sweaty

00:24:47.680 that they cast off their outer clothing

00:24:49.740 and then dance on in their night shirts,

00:24:52.740 their vests, their shifts,

00:24:54.180 their whatever you want to call them,

00:24:55.480 a light, a sark is how it's described.

00:24:58.980 And it's important, again,

00:25:00.260 for those who might not know the language, 0.98

00:25:01.920 a cutty sark is a shock shift,

00:25:04.280 shock dress.

00:25:05.740 And that's important because

00:25:07.200 after Burns describes the witches

00:25:09.940 in general terms,

00:25:11.380 in very disparaging, pleasant terms,

00:25:14.220 he then focuses on

00:25:15.240 and the most important

00:25:17.300 which of all happens

00:25:18.520 and the opposite of this

00:25:19.720 unfortunately happens

00:25:20.840 at the wedding very much

00:25:21.880 so he goes on

00:25:23.520 as Tammy glowered

00:25:24.320 amazed and curious

00:25:25.020 the mirth and fun

00:25:25.820 grew fast and furious

00:25:26.680 the pipe are loud

00:25:27.380 and louder blue

00:25:27.940 the dancers quick 0.58

00:25:28.700 and quicker flew

00:25:29.320 they reel they set

00:25:30.100 they cross they click it

00:25:31.080 till Ilka Carlin

00:25:32.020 swat and reek it

00:25:33.020 and coos their duddies 0.96

00:25:33.960 to the work

00:25:34.520 and link it at it 0.64

00:25:35.940 in her sack

00:25:36.680 now Tam 0.52

00:25:37.780 oh Tam 0.81

00:25:38.360 had they been queens

00:25:39.480 ah plump 0.98

00:25:40.600 and strapping

00:25:41.320 in their teens

00:25:42.100 their sacks

00:25:43.300 instead of Cressie Flannan

00:25:44.740 Been snow-white seventeen-hunner linen

00:25:46.900 There breaks a mine

00:25:48.400 My only pair 0.92

00:25:49.560 That ain't for plush o' good blue hair 0.99

00:25:51.800 I would ha' gain them off my herdies 1.00

00:25:53.860 For a blink o' the bonny birdies 1.00

00:25:56.400 Like withered beldams

00:25:59.080 Old and drawled 1.00

00:26:00.600 Red woody hags would spin a foal 0.99

00:26:02.920 Loupin' and flingin' on a crummett 0.74

00:26:05.080 I was a wonder, didn't I turn my stomach?

00:26:08.740 But am' ken what was hot food roly 1.00

00:26:11.060 There was a winsome wench and holly 0.99

00:26:13.720 That night enlisted in the corps 0.68

00:26:15.500 Lang after kend on Carrick's shore 0.66

00:26:17.720 For many a beast to dead she shot 0.99

00:26:19.760 And perished money a bonny boat 0.99

00:26:21.260 And shook with meekle corn and bear

00:26:23.240 And kept the countryside in fear 1.00

00:26:25.400 Her cutty sack 0.99

00:26:27.240 Was easily harm

00:26:28.540 But while a lassie she had worn

00:26:30.420 In longitude, though sorely scanty

00:26:33.000 It was her best

00:26:34.300 She was vauntly 1.00

00:26:35.840 Ah, little kend, thy reverend granny 1.00

00:26:38.780 That sack she croft for her wee nanny 1.00

00:26:41.240 With twa pun spots 1.00

00:26:42.920 Was I her riches 1.00

00:26:44.020 Would ever grace to dance riches

00:26:46.800 To hear my muse

00:26:48.760 Her wingman cower

00:26:49.800 Sick flights are far beyond her power 1.00

00:26:51.980 To sing how nanny lapped and flan 1.00

00:26:54.440 A superjad she was and strang 0.99

00:26:56.660 And how Tam stood like ain bewitched 0.99

00:26:58.920 And thought his very ain enriched

00:27:00.660 Even Satan glowered

00:27:02.580 And fidged through fane

00:27:03.580 And hoxed and blew we might and wane

00:27:05.260 Till first ae caper 0.90

00:27:06.720 Sign another 1.00

00:27:07.620 Tam tint his reason are together 0.97

00:27:09.860 And roars out

00:27:10.660 Well done cutty sack

00:27:12.500 and in an instant

00:27:14.820 all was dark

00:27:16.380 and scarcely had he Maggie rallied

00:27:18.400 when out the hellish legion sally

00:27:20.920 though 0.60

00:27:22.300 he's been so inspired

00:27:24.880 by this young 0.95

00:27:26.680 witch, this young scantily 0.92

00:27:28.780 clad attractive witch that he 1.00

00:27:30.620 forgets himself and cries out 0.95

00:27:32.940 and as soon as the presence of

00:27:35.120 a mortal human is known

00:27:37.240 all the lights, all the noise

00:27:39.340 everything stops, I love that

00:27:41.300 and in an instant

00:27:42.560 all was dark

00:27:44.100 and now

00:27:45.280 he's very quickly realised

00:27:47.180 he'd better get out of there

00:27:48.260 he's rallied his horse 0.99

00:27:49.760 and the hellish legion 0.97

00:27:51.080 sallies out

00:27:51.880 there's a description then

00:27:53.780 of how they all

00:27:54.740 follow after him

00:27:56.060 screeching and threatening

00:27:58.060 At a time, at a time

00:27:59.800 they'll get thy fair 0.75

00:28:00.720 and in hell 1.00

00:28:01.260 they'll roast thee like a heron 0.99

00:28:02.720 in vain thy Kate 0.99

00:28:04.300 awaits thy coming

00:28:05.240 Kate soon will be 0.99

00:28:06.680 a woeful woman 1.00

00:28:07.460 now you thy spuddy 1.00

00:28:09.840 speedy utmost Meg

00:28:11.080 And win the keystain of the brig 1.00

00:28:12.760 There at them now thy tail may toss 0.94

00:28:14.840 A running scream they'd earn across 1.00

00:28:16.520 But ere the keystain she could make 1.00

00:28:18.500 The fiend of tail she had to shake 0.96

00:28:19.860 For Nanny, far before the rest 0.98

00:28:21.860 Hard upon that noble Maggie pressed 1.00

00:28:23.940 And flew it to him with furious ettle 0.95

00:28:26.460 But little wished she Maggie's mettle 1.00

00:28:28.780 A spring brought off her master hail 1.00

00:28:31.380 But left behind her ain grey tail 1.00

00:28:33.440 The carling cocked her by the rump 1.00

00:28:35.840 And left poor Maggie scarce a stump

00:28:38.640 so that's chase has happened just as we have in the prose narrative version and the important

00:28:46.440 thing is to get to the key stain of the break now we'll remember the that hour of night's black

00:28:51.480 arch the key stain well now we have a literal key stain as long as he's over the halfway point of

00:28:56.880 the bridge the supernatural powers have no power on him the witch cannot cross a running stream

00:29:03.160 and Maggie just makes it 0.65

00:29:05.680 the tail's left 1.00

00:29:07.540 on the wrong side of the keystone of the bridge 0.99

00:29:09.800 so good old Maggie loses her tail

00:29:11.960 but loyal noble Maggie

00:29:13.920 brings her master across safely

00:29:15.800 and there's a moral to the

00:29:17.880 whole story of course

00:29:18.840 and it involves men

00:29:21.520 who think that taking drink

00:29:24.040 and chasing after

00:29:25.220 scantily clad young women 1.00

00:29:26.820 is a worthwhile pursuit 0.95

00:29:28.880 now, qua this tale of truth shall be

00:29:31.960 Ilk man and mother's son, take heed

00:29:34.480 Whene'er to drink you are inclined 0.69

00:29:36.760 Or cutie sarks run in your mind

00:29:38.620 Think, you may buy the joys o'er dear

00:29:41.940 Remember Ham O'Shanter's wear

00:29:44.780 And that's a warning which the men of Scotland

00:29:48.640 have taken from that day to this very seriously

00:29:50.800 and avoided strong drink and scantily clad

00:29:54.060 And that's Ham O'Shanter

00:29:57.980 Ian, thank you so much for that

00:30:01.180 That is a brilliant gallop through Tam O'Shanter.

00:30:06.300 I like many of the same phrases as you.

00:30:09.680 And I think my very phrase is the shout of well done, Cutty Sark.

00:30:14.840 And in a moment, all was dark.

00:30:16.240 Because you were caught up with the frenzy of the words,

00:30:22.680 the fact that he was watching them dancing around in a furling dervish,

00:30:26.500 that there was lights, there was sound,

00:30:28.400 there was things flying about everywhere.

00:30:30.440 and then he's propelled into that immediate darkness

00:30:34.660 and you're sitting with him in that immediate darkness

00:30:37.900 with that chill of fear of what's going to happen to you.

00:30:41.980 Often as it's performed at Burns' suppers,

00:30:45.480 I've seen people bring along a huge hold-all full of props

00:30:49.420 to represent the witches

00:30:51.700 and to represent the Span Langley and Christian Bairns and so on.

00:30:56.280 And my heart always sinks

00:30:57.820 because the words and the rhythm

00:30:59.940 of the poem tell you the whole story

00:31:02.080 and we even have

00:31:03.480 it's a cliche now

00:31:05.780 that when we get to the bit about in an instant

00:31:07.520 always dark

00:31:08.260 the person reciting it will often

00:31:11.700 have someone trying to switch off all the lights

00:31:13.640 in the place and I think

00:31:15.120 what is it about the words that you didn't get

00:31:17.640 without some demonstration of it

00:31:19.660 and perhaps being too

00:31:21.360 pious

00:31:22.240 You're a purist Ian

00:31:24.120 A purist is just another word for

00:31:27.580 Crashing Boar, but

00:31:29.020 either way, that's what I am when it

00:31:31.640 comes to a burden supper. Again,

00:31:33.680 for the benefit of those listening

00:31:35.500 who may not know all about

00:31:37.520 the thing, Tam O'Shanter, first of all

00:31:39.500 is the name given to a

00:31:41.920 bonnet or a cloth cap

00:31:43.620 and it is named after

00:31:45.580 the poem. The poem wasn't named after the Tam O'Shanter

00:31:47.780 so people around the world, because the

00:31:49.560 Tam O'Shanter is a cap which was

00:31:51.000 exported, will find it worn in America

00:31:53.580 so when Tam is

00:31:55.640 holding fast his good blue bonnet

00:31:57.580 as he's making his way away from the pub. 0.76

00:31:59.820 That's the bonnet which became the Tam O'Shanta.

00:32:02.940 Cutty Sark, many will recognise as the name of a sailing ship,

00:32:09.020 one of the T-Clippers.

00:32:10.600 It was launched in 1869 and was named after Cutty Sark

00:32:16.760 from the chap who owned the boat and was a fan of Burns' poem.

00:32:21.440 So that's where that came from.

00:32:22.680 And then in due course, Cutty Sark Whiskey was launched onto the market in 1923.

00:32:27.580 and it in turn is named after the ship

00:32:30.040 and carries a sailing ship in full sail on the label.

00:32:33.800 So there's some trivia for you

00:32:35.520 where the Tamashantar Bunnet and the Cutty Sark comes from.

00:32:39.120 Have you ever tried a Cutty Sark whiskey?

00:32:43.320 I'll be honest and say no.

00:32:45.020 And that's not really, I'm not being snobbish about it.

00:32:48.420 There's so many whiskeys on the market.

00:32:50.220 Cutty Sark, I think, is generally for the export market.

00:32:52.860 I think you'll find it more readily in America than you will here.

00:32:55.260 But it's a blended whiskey.

00:32:57.460 So if there was no malt left, I would go and look out at a cutty's heart.

00:33:01.000 A purist one again.

00:33:02.580 Again, a crashing gore.

00:33:04.340 On a slightly more serious observation then, I mentioned earlier on how your website, podcasts and other publicity about the Witches of Scotland has led me to review my view on whether we should do anything about historical wrongs.

00:33:21.120 And it strikes me that in the old cemetery in Edinburgh, which too few people visit,

00:33:28.080 most fascinating place on earth, the memorial to Hume stands beside the amazing statue of

00:33:36.440 President Lincoln with the freed slave at his feet reaching up in gratitude.

00:33:41.640 And in recent times, of course, we found that Hume, his legacy and his connection with the

00:33:46.300 slave trade has become problematic. And in America, I know there are demands that statues

00:33:53.820 of Lincoln with slaves on their knees or kneeling up in gratitude, there are demands for them

00:34:00.100 to be removed. And I wonder how long it will be before that same demand comes for this

00:34:04.440 astonishing. You walk into this old, old cemetery and find this amazing sculpture and statue

00:34:11.060 of Lincoln and the slave. 0.92

00:34:12.780 So not comparing the witches' campaign

00:34:16.400 with the campaign about the slave trade,

00:34:18.160 but there must be some parallels there.

00:34:20.000 And they're looking, first of all,

00:34:22.420 to the martyrs' monument for Thomas Muir and others.

00:34:26.120 So there's liberty and the fight for liberty there.

00:34:29.960 But Lincoln's then looking further down the road

00:34:32.680 towards Burns' monument on Calton Hill,

00:34:35.980 which in turn overlooks the churchyard on the Canongate,

00:34:41.680 where we find the grave of Robert Ferguson,

00:34:44.960 an Edinburgh poet who truly inspired Burns

00:34:47.320 and for whom Burns wrote the inscription on his memorial,

00:34:51.000 and the grave of Larinda or Agnes McElhose,

00:34:54.160 his great illicit love when he was in Edinburgh.

00:34:57.480 And to square the circle, as it were,

00:34:59.840 of course Burns seriously contemplated emigration to Jamaica,

00:35:04.060 where his role would have been as an overseer on a plantation worked by slaves.

00:35:10.140 And does that taint Burns' legacy and memory?

00:35:14.660 It may well do, because one thing I'm very keen on in relation to Burns

00:35:19.380 is not to be one of those who have been described in the past as bardolators

00:35:23.140 who idolise him, worship him.

00:35:26.240 I very much see Burns' warts and all.

00:35:28.500 He could be a terrible human being, yet capable of producing high art.

00:35:36.220 And I'm not raising this to give an answer.

00:35:40.520 I'm simply raising the question.

00:35:43.100 If we look back and examine the lives of people considered to be great,

00:35:50.860 are we prepared to accept that there are aspects of their lives which will not withstand scrutiny?

00:35:56.260 And if we are to memorialize the witches who were murdered, and we must consider how to deal with the nation's history vis-a-vis slavery, then we can't ignore that Burns and other great members of the Enlightenment have connections with that.

00:36:16.980 So there you are, I'm just giving you a kind of, my view is that there are issues which arise when we consider Burns, which give rise to questions we ought to discuss. I hope that you and your listeners find that useful.

00:36:30.000 Ian it was absolutely brilliant thank you very very much we really appreciate not you only coming

00:36:36.040 to tell us about the bard himself to tell us about the poem but what you said at the end there

00:36:41.660 it really is food for thought one of the things I always thought curious about Burns was that he was

00:36:47.280 such a terrible husband he was such a terrible father he was so bad to so many women but wrote

00:36:54.820 one of the most beautiful poems my love is like a red red rose it's bizarre that perhaps some of

00:37:00.960 the men who could be the best men and love best in the world could never put that into words

00:37:06.060 but but somebody who didn't necessarily show that in their life was so easily unable to write it

00:37:24.820 We hope you enjoyed listening to Ian McSporran QC there telling us about how people thought of

00:37:34.640 witches just after the witchcraft trials had ended. It's quite funny to get that description

00:37:40.300 of them only such a short time after the witchcraft act had ended and people were being put to death

00:37:46.300 as witches. But we see the terrible, horrible, grotesque and gory aspect to them. I don't think

00:37:54.720 that Robert Burns shied away at all from putting in some of the most horrible parts of what women

00:38:00.500 were being accused of in the poem. Moving on we want to tell you a wee bit about what's happening

00:38:06.520 next week and in next week's show we are delighted to be able to tell you that we've spoken to Rachel

00:38:11.760 Newton and Lauren McCall from Heal and Harrow. This is a new project about witches and memorialisation

00:38:19.680 of them in various forms through music and also in writing and we had a great chat with them and

00:38:25.560 we look forward to bringing you that next week thanks so much for listening again to the witches

00:38:30.500 of scotland podcast as ever please do follow us on twitter or facebook or instagram please sign up

00:38:37.840 because as the campaign progresses the more people we have on board and who know what we're talking

00:38:42.620 about and get involved the greater chance of success that we have we'll see you next week bye

00:38:47.920 bye

00:39:17.920 Thank you.

Witches of Scotland - January 23, 2021

EPISODE 18 IAIN MC SPORRAN QC ON ROBERT BURNS DEPICTION OF WITCHES IN TAM O SHANTER

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