Witches of Scotland - EPISODE 19 HEAL & HARROW

00:00:00.160 Hi, I'm Clare Mitchell QC. Welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:05.220 I'm a lawyer who specialises in miscarriage of justice cases and we're bringing you this podcast

00:00:10.120 because we want to tell you about the women who were accused, prosecuted, convicted

00:00:15.240 and ultimately executed as witches in Scotland.

00:00:18.780 I'm Zoe Vendetotsi and I'm a writer who's always had an interest in the witches

00:00:22.780 and I feel that this dark mark against Scotland needs a reckoning.

00:00:26.500 The campaign Witches of Scotland wants three things.

00:00:29.600 Firstly, a pardon for all those convicted of witchcraft.

00:00:33.120 Secondly, an apology for all those who were accused as witches.

00:00:37.420 And finally, a national monument in recognition of all those who were affected by this terrible miscarriage of justice.

00:00:44.420 Over the forthcoming weeks, we'll be talking to a whole host of experts about the history and the modern day connections to the witches of Scotland.

00:00:54.760 Hello and welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:57.480 This is episode 19 and today we are delighted to be talking to musicians and artists Heel

00:01:04.320 and Harrow from Scotland who are giving an artistic response to the witchcraft story.

00:01:09.860 So we're going to be looking at three women again this week who were charged as witches

00:01:14.940 and what's really interesting about this is that Claire did the research on the survey

00:01:19.220 of Scottish witchcraft online and used the database and through using that was able to

00:01:24.000 see that the three women we're going to talk about their stories were interwoven.

00:01:27.480 so Claire will tell you more about that but the first woman that we're looking at this week is

00:01:31.760 Margaret Abernethy so what we know about her was that she was a widower and is described as having

00:01:37.820 low status there's a mention of her begging for arms so she was she was clearly somebody that 0.58

00:01:42.500 didn't have anything and on the 15th of July 1669 Margaret Abernethy was accused of maleficium 0.96

00:01:50.020 do you think that's right Claire maleficium rather than maleficium maleficium or maleficium

00:01:55.120 It's, I think you would have Latin scholars maybe arguing it was one particular way,

00:02:00.800 but maleficium, I would probably say. 0.58

00:02:03.400 And that is an act of witchcraft performed with the intention of causing damage or injury.

00:02:09.100 So that is also known as any magical act intended to cause harm or death to people or property.

00:02:14.700 We know that the Privy Council granted a commission to try her as a witch

00:02:18.080 and that she was actually held in custody in Aberdeen prison while she awaited her trial.

00:02:22.500 Now, this is quite interesting.

00:02:24.840 She was accused of providing what's described as raw, enchanted flesh so that Galis Burnett or Burnett could kill her husband.

00:02:34.240 And she was supposedly paid sixpence and a pint of ale.

00:02:38.100 But we don't know the outcome of the trial.

00:02:40.000 Now, that on its own is super interesting to me for various reasons.

00:02:43.580 But what is the super interest of this week is that it's interwoven then with the story of Galis Burnett.

00:02:49.640 So I'm going to hand over to you, Claire, so you can explain why this is interwoven.

00:02:53.500 Yeah, so what happened was I was looking at the story of Margaret Abernethy online and I noticed that as a lot of these witch trials are, they're interwoven because people make allegations about other people in their village and then they are tried as well.

00:03:11.240 Sometimes they're tried at the same time, sometimes they're tried at different times and there's a connection between these people.

00:03:18.600 Now, what happened, it would appear, is that Margaret Abernethy was prosecuted first and she was prosecuted alone.

00:03:27.360 And by that, I mean that she wasn't prosecuted with Galis.

00:03:31.300 Is it Galis or Geelis, Burnett? I'm not quite sure.

00:03:35.420 If anyone knows the pronunciation of that, please let us know through our social media.

00:03:40.480 I'll go with Galis while I'm speaking to you.

00:03:43.280 But they weren't tried together. 0.66

00:03:45.320 So what was alleged that Margaret Abernethy had done was that she had provided raw, enchanted flesh.

00:03:53.280 Now, exactly what that is, I don't know.

00:03:56.040 I am assuming it's the flesh of an animal and some spell has been cast over it. 0.96

00:04:01.340 And that was given to Galus Burnett so she could kill her husband.

00:04:05.960 Now, remember what we've spoken about before with the Witchcraft Act. 0.61

00:04:09.400 And I keep promising to tell you all about it and I surely will sometime soon. 0.75

00:04:15.320 The Witchcraft Act could have you convicted as a witch and killed,

00:04:20.660 but it was also a crime of witchcraft to consult with a witch. 0.72

00:04:26.120 So if you go to somebody and you ask them for help as a witch, 0.59

00:04:31.500 provide me with a spell, provide me with your magic to help me in some way, 0.77

00:04:36.460 like this maleficium, you could also be found guilty of witchcraft under the Witchcraft Act.

00:04:43.480 so that the act of asking for the assistance of a witch

00:04:46.500 would bring you under the definition of witchcraft

00:04:50.140 I mean I suppose it's no different to now

00:04:53.480 and I'm obviously not an expert in Scottish law

00:04:56.380 but I've watched a lot of TV programmes about American law

00:05:00.080 and it seems to be that if you contract a hitman

00:05:04.220 then you are also guilty of murder

00:05:07.400 is that correct?

00:05:08.680 It's the exact same thing

00:05:11.220 you're going to do your bidding that's an illegal act indeed you're equally as culpable

00:05:18.680 in criminal law sometimes we're when we're trying to describe how different people can do different

00:05:24.180 parts of a criminal act we describe it by way of a bank robbery and see if you are somebody who's

00:05:31.740 contracted to drive a car and you sit outside a bank but don't go into the bank and you let people

00:05:38.820 you know that the plan is to go into the bank to rob the bank and to to bring the money out

00:05:43.520 you're equally as culpable of that robbery as somebody who's gone in and brandished the weapon

00:05:50.960 and asked for the the money even though you haven't committed that at that physical act

00:05:57.360 but you're equally as culpable because you're called what we call in scotland art and part

00:06:03.100 guilty which means that you're acting along with or another old phrase we use is acting

00:06:08.540 in concert with so there is a common criminal plan and that common criminal plan is to do

00:06:15.200 something bad in this case the common criminal plan was to give Gaelis Burnett something which 0.99

00:06:24.160 she would use to kill her husband. So that hasn't really changed in all those years then in Scotland

00:06:30.520 that's a big part of the of the accused isn't it so that's very interesting. The way the Witchcraft

00:06:35.820 act deals with it is that it instead of saying that they were acting together in concert to kill

00:06:40.980 someone the witchcraft act deals with it slightly differently what it says is that you're guilty of

00:06:46.640 witchcraft if you were a witch providing the spells or you were also guilty of witchcraft if you asked

00:06:52.860 someone to provide a spell so it dealt with it in a technically slightly different way by providing

00:06:59.980 for two different crimes there but they both come under the umbrella of witchcraft. You would

00:07:07.820 probably have expected these women to be tried at the same time, Margaret Abernethy and Gaelis

00:07:14.160 Burnett but they weren't and what we do know is that for some reason Gaelis Burnett was not tried

00:07:19.660 until 1671, that's some two years later than Margaret Abernethy. We are told that the

00:07:27.400 characterization of her witchcraft crimes are consulting a known witch, which would of course 0.57

00:07:34.040 be consulting Margaret Abernethy, the demonic pact, and the demonic pact is the pact that you

00:07:41.540 make with the devil to be bad and do his bidding, and that usually means renouncing your baptism.

00:07:46.940 Not the pact between then the witch and the client, as it were, so that's not that pact,

00:07:51.720 it's about you as the accused witch's personal pact with the devil.

00:07:55.200 Yes, that's the demonic pact is that you make an agreement with the devil and it's usually, well, you have to renounce your baptism, obviously, and then the devil offers you something. 0.55

00:08:06.020 I saw on the survey of Scottish witchcraft one person saying that she was promised all the riches by the devil, but when the devil left her, it turned into mud.

00:08:18.800 She confessed, inverted commas, to the devil having given her all these riches and having it changed to mud as part of the demonic pact.

00:08:26.780 So the characterisation of her crimes were consulting a known witch, a demonic pact, and maleficium, i.e. Gaelis Burnett, was said to have gone to Margaret Abernethy and said, can you give me a spell to kill my husband?

00:08:40.560 now it's said that she was implicated not by one but by two witches so by implication we think that

00:08:48.340 Margaret Abernethy perhaps named her as a person that had asked her for help because if she was

00:08:55.720 implicated as it was said here implicated by two witches one of them would certainly appear to be

00:09:01.660 Margaret Abernethy but I had to do a wee bit of searching around and it was really easy on the

00:09:06.780 Scottish database I'd have to say I was able to a bit of searching around and find out that the

00:09:12.800 other person was called Isabel Spens and we'll come to her story in a minute but sticking with

00:09:18.260 Gaelis Burnett at the moment what we know was that she was accused of killing her previous two

00:09:24.500 husbands by witchcraft so when she went to ask Margaret Abernethy to help her kill her husband

00:09:32.880 by way of providing a spell the raw enchanted flesh so that she could kill her husband that

00:09:39.900 appears to have been her second husband John Smith. Her first husband had also died John Gibson 0.66

00:09:46.840 and she was accused of killing him as well but it's not known doesn't say anywhere how she was

00:09:53.300 said to have killed him. What we are told is that on both accused killings she placed something

00:10:01.840 under her then husband's bed. Of course we know in the case of Margaret Abernethy it was said

00:10:08.700 that it was a piece of enchanted raw flesh. For the alleged murder of her first husband it was said

00:10:17.340 that she had bought enchanted powder. The powder supposedly caused him to have problems in his

00:10:25.000 inverted commas, in his privy parts with burning. Now I don't know whether or not it's alleged that

00:10:33.060 this was a spell of Isabelle Spence or Isabelle Spence was just somebody who was named as a witch 0.92

00:10:41.200 and not actually involved in it at all but we can see here she's alleged to have killed both her

00:10:47.140 husbands in these two odd ways involving alleged witchcraft. What we know in this trial however

00:10:54.340 is Gaelis Burnett was defended by advocates.

00:10:58.540 As you know, I'm an advocate myself

00:11:00.000 and the Faculty of Advocates was established in 1532

00:11:03.840 and she was defended and prosecuted by advocates.

00:11:09.220 And that's the exact same today.

00:11:10.820 Advocates still both defend and prosecute

00:11:13.800 as part of their job.

00:11:15.440 They can't do either.

00:11:16.980 Can I ask you another question?

00:11:17.720 For those of us that are not legal beagles

00:11:21.140 or legal eagles, whatever it is,

00:11:22.480 Do you choose as an advocate if you're going to go down one route or the other?

00:11:27.520 So are there like defence advocates and prosecution advocates or do you just choose on a like a case by case business?

00:11:35.460 It's not usually by a case by case business.

00:11:37.820 What happens is that you can apply to become an advocate depute, so deputised from the Lord Advocate,

00:11:45.380 and you can prosecute either individual cases like you've said or more usually you undertake

00:11:53.460 to do it for a number of years so it's quite common for people as advocates to have an expertise

00:11:59.880 in some other area of law and then to go into crown office for a number of years to to do

00:12:05.960 prosecution you can ask to prosecute or defend and if you're granted a commission to do so you can

00:12:12.480 prosecute as well as defend.

00:12:14.660 Very educated.

00:12:16.920 No, no, no.

00:12:19.320 The Faculty of Advocates was, as I said,

00:12:21.580 established in 1532

00:12:23.060 and famous advocates include

00:12:25.100 numbers of celebrated figures.

00:12:27.260 Sir Walter Scott, Robert

00:12:29.120 Louis Stevenson, James Boswell

00:12:31.400 and much more recently

00:12:32.940 Alexander McCall Smith

00:12:34.560 were all advocates and

00:12:36.980 are all advocates at the

00:12:38.860 Scottish Bar.

00:12:40.880 I hadn't realised that the first two were lawyers then.

00:12:45.800 Yes.

00:12:46.200 So that's, yeah, as an English teacher,

00:12:49.540 that just shows a massive gap in my knowledge.

00:12:51.900 But that's interesting.

00:12:53.060 I didn't realise that they came from that background.

00:12:54.440 I knew that Alexander McCall Smith is a lawyer

00:12:56.900 and is from that background, but that's really interesting.

00:13:00.320 Yeah, so they would have been involved perhaps

00:13:03.380 in defence or prosecution.

00:13:05.460 I don't know.

00:13:06.240 We'll have to check our records

00:13:08.640 and see whether or not they were involved in any criminal trials.

00:13:13.200 I'm not sure about that.

00:13:14.200 They might have been involved in civil law.

00:13:16.660 So we know the names of the advocates that were involved in defending Gilles Burnett.

00:13:21.780 Their names of the defence were Mr Alexander Anderson and Mr George Bands.

00:13:29.920 Now, there are two advocates there.

00:13:31.760 Probably one advocate was more senior than the other.

00:13:34.360 At the Faculty of Advocates, we have a definition of junior advocates and senior advocates, and the senior advocate would take the lead role in a case, and the junior advocate would take the lesser role, but they might have more to do with, for example, research, bringing together cases, that sort of thing, and the lead advocate would be more lead in the actual hearing itself.

00:14:00.400 So it says there were the two of them, Alexander Anson and George Bands.

00:14:05.000 They also named two other people for the defence, David Deik, D-E-I-K, and George Nicholson.

00:14:10.980 And I think they were probably solicitors, because advocates in Scotland can't simply represent clients directly.

00:14:19.680 They are instructed by solicitors, and the client relationship with the solicitor and the solicitor's relationship is with the advocate.

00:14:28.260 and that is how people are instructed in those sorts of cases so I suspect that David Deke and

00:14:35.500 George Nicholson because there's no information about them being advocates I suspect that they

00:14:40.320 were the solicitors the law agents involved in instructing Alexander Anderson and George Bands

00:14:47.240 to act on behalf of Galis Burnett so what I think we can tell about Galis Burnett is she was a woman

00:14:54.920 of some means because she was able to instruct a large team of advocates not simply one advocate

00:15:02.300 but two when her first husband died quite quite possibly what we also know is we also know the

00:15:10.400 names of the prosecutors in this case she was prosecuted by Mr Alexander Brown and Mr William

00:15:20.020 Moneypenny, Advocate Depute, and that's the deputisation from the Lord Advocate Prosecute.

00:15:27.400 So they were, Mr William Moneypenny was a prosecuting advocate, and Mr Alexander Brown

00:15:32.680 may have been a solicitor, it doesn't say that he was an advocate. And we don't know anything

00:15:38.440 about the trial, but she was acquitted of the charges against her. So it would appear that

00:15:47.360 having people that were able to defend you in your case, well, might or might not have played

00:15:54.380 a part in this. We do know, of course, that many people who were legally represented were still

00:15:59.740 convicted. And we also know some people who had no representation at all were acquitted. So I don't

00:16:06.940 think we can read too much into that. But it certainly must have helped that she was assisted

00:16:12.740 by advocates and she was acquitted of the charge. So what of the third person involved in all of

00:16:20.560 this, the other person that Galus was said to have consulted or had been named by Galus,

00:16:28.260 Isabel Spence. We know that she was from Aberdeen, that she was a widower and her

00:16:34.940 socioeconomic status is described as middling. It's noted that her husband that she'd been

00:16:42.200 married to was a bookbinder. His name was Francis Van Hagen. The allegation against her was that

00:16:48.700 Gaylis Burnett supposedly consulted her for the killing of her husband. We know that the man who

00:16:56.140 investigated the case was called John Preston and what's recorded, and it's really strange Zoe,

00:17:02.420 that such details are recorded. I suppose they needed such financial records but we know that

00:17:07.180 he was paid 10 mercs per day for his work but what we don't know even though we know how much

00:17:14.780 the investigator was paid and all this detail is unfortunately the records don't record the outcome

00:17:20.820 of her case so we know that's really telling isn't it yeah just you know what you know you'd said to

00:17:29.140 me before we've got the names of the of the legal team as it were written down we know about the

00:17:33.780 money side of it a little bit anyway but you know to not actually record the outcome of the trial

00:17:38.860 that speaks volumes doesn't it it's very very sad that we don't have those but these were three

00:17:46.580 women um accused of witchcraft we know one of them was acquitted we don't know the outcome

00:17:54.280 of the trial or the other two what we do know about those is that the accusation of witchcraft

00:18:00.500 would cause people to be taken into custody to be tortured to be held in very very bad conditions

00:18:07.160 pending their trial and what would have happened to these women would have been incredibly

00:18:12.100 unfortunate now some people might say well if that woman really consulted two other women about

00:18:18.580 killing their husband should they not be still guilty should they not be found guilty of witchcraft

00:18:24.700 and my answer to that is whatever they might have been doing it wasn't witchcraft yeah if there was

00:18:31.660 evidence that it was a you know like a kind of a straightforward pact to to murder then they would

00:18:38.140 have gone with that surely you know the fact that there's this kind of nebulous there was a you know

00:18:42.140 powder under the bed there was enchanted flesh under the bed I mean that doesn't seem like the

00:18:47.700 strongest of evidence no to say the least it doesn't say it seemed like the strongest of

00:18:52.780 evidence but yes you would expect if there were if there if it was a straightforward murder case

00:18:59.600 for it to be dealt with as a murder case even then whatever these women were doing even if they were

00:19:05.940 doing what is said that was happening they weren't doing witchcraft and of course we have to remember 0.56

00:19:12.040 that we're hearing these stories only because allegations of witchcraft had arisen it could

00:19:19.120 all be lies made up because people were placed in situations where they were trying to avoid

00:19:27.500 further torture so the stories are interwoven into these three cases you have to take with a

00:19:36.740 large pinch of salt because the stories that were obtained from people were obtained in circumstances

00:19:44.700 that in any ordinary court would never be admissible

00:19:49.780 because they had been teamed in a manner so unfair

00:19:53.000 to those that were standing accused.

00:19:56.380 It's just grim, isn't it?

00:19:59.120 Yeah.

00:19:59.840 I very much hope that what happened was

00:20:03.120 that the other two women weren't convicted of witchcraft

00:20:06.160 because, of course, if they were,

00:20:07.860 the Act says that there's only one outcome 0.99

00:20:10.360 and that is to be killed.

00:20:12.120 So I hope these women weren't killed of witchcraft on this very scant information in relation to this one woman at the centre of it. 0.95

00:20:22.520 Yeah, it just goes to show again, you know, like the complete nonsense of the idea that you sell your soul to the devil or however you want to term it.

00:20:30.840 And that, you know, you're doing that for power and riches. 0.83

00:20:33.740 And yet the first one we're talking about here was a beggar, you know, like that. 0.99

00:20:37.760 It just doesn't make any sense. 0.98

00:20:39.100 Like, why would you have these magical powers?

00:20:42.940 Why would you be able to murder somebody without actually touching them

00:20:46.200 and still be poor enough that you're begging people?

00:20:49.420 You know, it just doesn't make any sense.

00:20:52.100 Yeah, and when I heard you read at the start that Margaret Abernethy

00:20:56.140 had provided this for sixpence and a pint of ale, it's just so sad.

00:21:02.620 Yeah.

00:21:03.500 You know.

00:21:04.300 One thing that we haven't really talked about was,

00:21:06.580 obviously within christianity there's a construct that you know that you you live you live you know

00:21:12.140 you might live a terrible life but it's it's really awful and stressful and that you'll get

00:21:16.040 your reward in heaven is there an equivalent for for people that worship the devil but hell is

00:21:21.480 awful like it's not like there's not like an idea that there's a there's a party room you know like

00:21:26.680 there's all these like low-level miscreants who are just going to get burned and tortured for

00:21:30.900 eternity and then like her witch is in some sort of like special green room you know like where

00:21:35.940 there's blues and hot young guys or whatever you know like it's bizarre like i don't understand it

00:21:42.040 really because i could understand like within the christian construct that that that woman living

00:21:46.920 as a beggar she'd have the idea that you know at the end of days that she would she'd get her

00:21:51.800 reward but i just you know is there an equivalent i don't know maybe someday there's an expert on

00:21:56.660 um on construct of the afterlife for people that are the devil i don't know as you'd say because

00:22:03.400 if the pact with the devil is you get all the world's riches and you're thinking well I'm

00:22:08.400 clearly not getting them in this life why would you expect to get them yeah yeah that's because

00:22:16.380 you would think that if there was like a cool and sexy afterlife that was the opposite of heaven

00:22:21.600 that the devil would have really good marketing you know do you know I mean like there would be

00:22:26.400 you'd be like wow that sounds we want it just doesn't make any sense none of it makes any sense

00:22:31.860 club med with fire i don't know i i'm interested i think it's saying a lot more about your psyche

00:22:40.420 zoe than um than what this was actually about to to identify hell as club med except with fire

00:22:47.440 for for those that got into packs with the devil but yeah i think also it's a lot about my psyche

00:22:53.620 that when i was reading that i was thinking on the one hand as a very sensible grown-up adult lady

00:22:57.800 i was thinking this is absolutely terrible and on the other hand i was thinking but that is a good

00:23:01.720 name for a band Enchanted Meat oh no why would that be a good name for a band it would have to

00:23:09.620 be fairly heavy metal I think I think you and I would maybe like different music no Enchanted

00:23:16.160 I'm not into heavy metal I'm just thinking that if I was gonna have a heavy metal band

00:23:20.480 that Enchanted Meat would be quite good I think okay I'm not suggesting we start a band called

00:23:26.440 enchanted meat Claire

00:23:27.400 it's okay

00:23:28.040 we'd be much

00:23:30.840 classier than that

00:23:32.120 I think

00:23:32.600 probably

00:23:33.100 yeah

00:23:33.820 anyway

00:23:34.500 you can spend

00:23:35.420 the next week

00:23:36.040 thinking of a name

00:23:37.720 that would suit us

00:23:38.740 for a band Zoe

00:23:39.640 but not

00:23:40.440 enchanted meat

00:23:41.120 why don't we speak

00:23:42.220 to some real musicians

00:23:43.860 good plan

00:23:45.760 yes

00:23:46.340 yes

00:23:46.840 definitely

00:23:47.400 let us go

00:23:48.700 over to

00:23:49.320 Heel and Harrow

00:23:56.440 we're delighted today to be joined by rachel newton and lauren mccall who are going to talk

00:24:07.100 to us about their new project heal and harrow so hello and welcome to the show rachel and lauren

00:24:12.060 hello thanks for having us hi so much could you tell us a wee bit about yourselves and really

00:24:18.340 what the project is yes um i'll go first shall i so um so yeah i'm rachel and yeah we lauren and i

00:24:26.500 have known each other since we were i'd say about eight or nine years old we used to go to face

00:24:33.240 rosh which is the uh sort of gallic arts tuition festival based up in in rosshire i'm from edinburgh

00:24:40.260 but my my family are from up north so that's kind of how i ended up going to that and lauren's from

00:24:45.720 the Black Isle so yeah we met there and have been sort of playing music together informally since

00:24:52.860 then and then I'd say maybe kind of about six seven years ago we started playing music together

00:25:00.180 professionally Lauren played on my solo album and then I worked with Lauren on her projects

00:25:06.720 so we've worked with each other a long time and we just decided that now is the time to

00:25:11.540 to do a sort of dual project which is very exciting yeah the last the last project that we

00:25:17.720 worked on together was um a piece of mine a commissioned work called the seer which was

00:25:24.900 a body of work inspired by the life and prophecies of the bran seer he was a prophet who is the

00:25:33.240 latter part of his life was spent in Russia and he was supposedly burned for witchcraft

00:25:40.860 on the end of Channery Point in the Black Isle where I grew up and so that project and we spent

00:25:49.380 a few couple of years working on the music for that and touring that and in 2019 we were touring

00:25:55.980 that up up north and and we as part of that tour we visited the the witch's stone of janet horn

00:26:04.500 and that kind of set us on this on this thinking of perhaps a new project that that we could work

00:26:12.660 on together this last year i guess it's it's been a different year 2020 for for everyone and what it

00:26:19.800 did in a positive way was it created a little space in the diary to to get our heads together

00:26:25.360 and start something new and can I just ask for the purposes of our listeners that don't know

00:26:31.520 what do you both play and for we've got listeners from all over the world so they might not be

00:26:36.740 familiar with with what Scottish music there is so if you could kind of do like a beginner's

00:26:42.400 primer for what it is that you do for those that aren't familiar with our culture absolutely well

00:26:47.100 I play the fiddle a bit of viola but the fiddle primarily or the violin exactly same instrument

00:26:54.020 and Rachel plays the harp, the viola and sings both in Gaelic and in English and writes songs too

00:27:03.260 so we work loosely within the kind of folk and traditional music genre

00:27:10.120 but our work takes us into lots of different parts of the rich Scottish music scene

00:27:17.240 I think our kind of shared interest that's kind of related to I suppose the folk and traditional side

00:27:23.120 of music is the sort of historical aspect of it and the fact that a lot of these songs and tunes

00:27:30.440 have these incredible stories attached to them and I think that's a big part of why this project

00:27:36.200 kind of interested us we both are really interested in finding just sort of digging a bit deeper into

00:27:41.860 what kind of lies beyond you know beneath um like a song or a tune and and I think the songs

00:27:48.180 especially are you know like these old ballads and things like that they they really show us how

00:27:54.580 kind of relatable these quite often women I quite I always look for women's perspective and ballads

00:28:01.060 and how relatable these people were and how they're how these are modern parallels um are so

00:28:06.460 kind of clear to see you know in these songs and that's that's definitely a kind of aspect that

00:28:11.720 that really kind of drew us to this this project that we're doing here on the arrow so so tell us

00:28:18.040 about Heal and Harrow tell us about the name and what you want for the project what you want to do

00:28:23.660 with that project yeah well I mean Heal and Harrow it's always difficult coming up with names

00:28:28.020 for anything isn't it ours was quite straightforward yeah yeah yeah you know you sort of tell it like

00:28:34.300 it is although although there was a bit of controversy about it because should we call

00:28:40.520 the people witches because you know they're women not witches but first of all that's quite a

00:28:47.080 difficult and long title these were women not witches.com or or whatever but the other thing

00:28:53.000 was that I thought well history records these people as witches just now and the whole point

00:28:57.560 of it is to to take witches of Scotland and to make it women of Scotland so so that was why we

00:29:03.220 we decided that way but anyway yes it it wasn't as straightforward as it seemed I suppose in first

00:29:08.280 blush yeah but tell us about tell us about yours do tell us so I think when we started looking into

00:29:13.200 this we we saw that there were quite quite a few kind of binaries i suppose or you know the two

00:29:18.600 different aspects or sort of conflicting aspects and and also because it's a duo we kind of thought

00:29:23.760 it was quite nice to have this sort of these two two elements and heel i suppose kind of partly

00:29:29.480 comes from this idea that i mean of course it wasn't you know wasn't all all women in the witch

00:29:35.200 trials a lot of these women were as we know women that you know that were very unfortunately tied

00:29:40.800 up with it but we're quite interested in this kind of healing aspect you know there were some

00:29:45.960 women who were the healers in their community but also I think maybe that idea of healing in terms of

00:29:52.060 I suppose remembering and the healing process of that's a very very long-term thing of actually

00:29:59.300 remembering what happened to these women not just in the witch trials but you know women across

00:30:03.820 history you know that were connected to have thought of as witches or similar to that so

00:30:09.060 yeah that was kind of heel and then harrow of course it's just I suppose the harrowing aspect

00:30:14.120 of of it which is just it's just such a harrowing kind of experience that that people had so I guess

00:30:19.720 that was kind of how heel and harrow came about. So what do you what do you foresee happening with

00:30:25.300 the project what form will it actually take? Our kind of first aim with this is to to write a body

00:30:33.120 of work which will be an album based on 10 stories and those stories with well this is an exclusive

00:30:41.120 for your podcast we've commissioned brilliant writer marie kidd a very good friend of ours

00:30:46.800 to write 10 stories and both based on yeah she's yeah yeah that's great and obviously a friend of

00:30:56.400 our podcast she was a very very early um guest and and before we started making the podcast i

00:31:02.440 interviewed um marie oh nearly a year ago and my heart almost breaks to even remember this as my

00:31:08.420 last time out at a literary festival but at the pitlockery winter words festival which is almost

00:31:13.520 a year ago i interviewed marie about her book there and um and i knew at the time claire and

00:31:19.440 i were we're getting ready to do the podcast and i was thinking we have to get her on as a guest

00:31:23.660 because she just tells the stories so well so she's a brilliant choice for your project that's

00:31:28.860 very exciting for us to have as I as I said earlier it's a scoop I feel like we've got

00:31:34.000 breaking news it's not fake news so you've got Mary writing 10 stories and then what will you

00:31:44.100 do with that then so those stories will will be the inspiration for the music so the idea is

00:31:50.900 10 stories and 10 tracks and that will form this album and book product if you like and that'll be

00:31:59.200 the start of this project that we we hope will will tour in in the year following and there's

00:32:06.060 lots of other strains to it and aspects which we're we're kind of piecing together because

00:32:11.080 as you know when you embark on bits of research or you're delving into these things it it does

00:32:17.300 really grow arms and legs and and since we've told the world a little bit about what we're doing

00:32:23.520 we've found out so much more and so many people have been very generous with their information

00:32:28.840 and their own research and their own thoughts on the topic so it's it's massive isn't it and we're

00:32:34.720 we're just getting going so um but yeah really delighted to have marie on board she's she's the

00:32:40.420 perfect person we thought for this not only for her writing but she's got an amazing knowledge of

00:32:47.300 Gaelic culture and language and the song and traditional music element of what makes us

00:32:54.060 tick as musicians. She's in a perfect place to work with us I think. So are you currently in

00:32:59.920 sort of research period of your role? Are you already writing music or do the two happen at

00:33:07.380 the same time? Well usually they would maybe happen at the same time but yeah during this time

00:33:14.120 it's just impossible to be allowed to get together to to make music and I think given we have done

00:33:21.000 quite a lot of we've been sitting on zoom with each other for a lot of time over the last five

00:33:27.280 or six months and I think one of the things that has made us keep looking forward and look forward

00:33:33.900 within the project is this aim of being allowed to get together to make music and to do something

00:33:40.140 that is a lot easier when you're in person it's been nice to work in a slightly different way i

00:33:46.720 think as well you know and to have to really set something up you know like we are still as lauren

00:33:52.580 said we're still learning um and still researching and things are coming to us as well people are

00:33:57.680 coming to us with with our stories and ideas and that's been really nice and i think when we do

00:34:02.260 come to kind of make the music we'll have this foundation and especially with marie's stories

00:34:07.440 as well we'll have this foundation to work from which I think is just a really nice place to be

00:34:12.740 hopefully we'll do it justice absolutely I'm sure I'm sure you will do it justice I've absolutely

00:34:18.760 no doubt about it but I was just so delighted when I heard about it that that there was going to be

00:34:26.160 more people bringing the voices of these women back and as you said yourself Rachel the stories

00:34:33.200 of people don't change the the ballads that we hear about of old and the feelings that they had

00:34:39.140 and the relationships that they formed and the situations they got themselves into in their life

00:34:43.780 don't change on a human level from the same sort of things that happen now I mean we may have

00:34:49.940 iPhones and fast cars but it doesn't really matter to issues of the heart I suppose definitely and I

00:34:57.000 think when you hear it in this in a in terms of a story or a song it kind of builds that paints that

00:35:02.120 picture you know and it can i think it gives you opportunity to delve into these little elements of

00:35:07.640 real life you know because sometimes you can when you're reading about it it can be quite

00:35:12.360 overwhelming but i think if you hone in on on a person or character and really imagine what their

00:35:17.940 experience was you can really start to relate to it i think one of the things that you've said on

00:35:23.880 the website that i definitely connect with was the idea about humanizing the stories and i think

00:35:29.380 that's something that we keep coming back to all the time and I'm like a I don't know I just like

00:35:34.560 a squeaky wheel on this one but we just it's something where there was a moment for me where

00:35:39.440 it went from being just a story about witches being Scottish and you just sort of think well

00:35:44.320 yeah the witches were burned and you didn't really think too much more about it so then making the

00:35:48.300 connection that actually these were all people and I think what you're doing is really important

00:35:51.680 and it sits really nicely alongside what we're trying to do which is just bringing people back

00:35:55.660 to think they were they were just people they were mostly women they were just people living

00:35:59.980 their lives and this terrible thing happened i think it's really important yeah and also

00:36:04.840 something we've talked about a little bit on that line about how how relatively recent this

00:36:12.940 all really was and and when we went and had a look at janet horns at the witch stone there

00:36:20.460 in Dorna it was the day 1727 that kind of really jumped out to me and even though she was the last

00:36:29.320 witch to be executed but I just couldn't help but think that was within 10 years of the Battle of

00:36:36.740 Culloden which is something that I probably spent most of my childhood learning about in school it's 0.79

00:36:42.620 the only thing I can remember from Scottish history lessons and it was really really drummed

00:36:47.340 to us that history and how important it was but also about how you know that it was quite a part

00:36:54.600 of modern history if you like and very relevant to Highland culture and very important on that level

00:37:00.200 and to think that actually these women it was all within the same time and I think I grew up

00:37:07.520 thinking that that was part of much earlier Scottish history so it really yeah that really

00:37:15.440 kind of heightened my awareness of how recent times that that really was

00:37:22.300 Lauren did you learn at all about the women that were killed as witches in school I didn't I don't

00:37:29.320 think I have no memory of that no I mean very little memory of school but yeah I think we

00:37:37.520 might have done only in sort of the context not not in a historical context but probably more in

00:37:43.880 a kind of a creative I mean I remember doing the way I don't know if they still do this at primary

00:37:48.760 school why I went to primary school in the 1800s um we did this thing to remember our class did a

00:37:54.860 dance to like you know the dance macabre um which I know I'm pronouncing horribly and then we went

00:37:59.620 somewhere in Fife I went to school in Fife we went somewhere like Loch Ely or Glenrothes or something

00:38:03.240 and then all these other primary classes had had people that weren't dance teachers that had made

00:38:08.200 us make up these dance responses and I remember that because we were like witches and skeletons

00:38:12.300 in that one in my memory but I can't really remember anything else particularly I don't

00:38:17.240 I don't you know like maybe Tamashanter but other than that definitely weren't taught anything about

00:38:23.340 and there was loads of stuff in Fife loads of stuff happened in Fife but it wasn't covered

00:38:27.100 but I think that's probably because teachers themselves I mean I'm a teacher so I totally

00:38:32.300 get this if you don't know about it we don't have like a set set curriculum in Scotland it's a lot

00:38:37.700 of it is about your personal interests and you know the stuff that you sort of come across so

00:38:42.400 I suppose if we don't really know about that you know and it's not really talked about too openly

00:38:47.340 then it maybe wouldn't occur I would hope that'll change a wee bit now you know and that that you

00:38:52.360 know like resources like what you're doing and what we're doing with the podcast might make

00:38:56.880 people think oh this is an aspect of history that that is worth worth telling it doesn't just have

00:39:01.900 to be about what men did it doesn't just have to be about well this is actually about what men did

00:39:06.740 as she says quickly correcting herself maybe it's not glorious things that men did maybe sometimes

00:39:12.200 things that are terrible that men did are actually really worth looking at so I mean for example I'm

00:39:17.320 going to go on a slight like rant about this but talking about things being being close in time

00:39:22.560 what happened last night when when the story broke about Phil Spector the murderer and music producer

00:39:29.160 dying I listened to I had Radio 6 on in the background just having having my tea and it

00:39:34.100 mentioned him you know about being a producer and then it said and you know he was convicted

00:39:37.680 of murdering an actress and didn't mention her name and I was kind of like guys have we learned

00:39:43.540 nothing like what is going on here like you're burying the lead there I remember that court case

00:39:48.640 and I had to go away and look it up but her name was Lana Clarkson and it needs to be mentioned

00:39:53.280 you know that he murdered this woman Lana Clarkson not he murdered an actress you know and I think

00:39:58.420 it's very similar with the with the witches we're just like the witches and it's this this kind of

00:40:02.580 like blob of humanity that were strangled and then their bodies were burnt like we need to

00:40:08.980 we need to do what we're doing which is name and talk about specific things so sorry about that

00:40:14.460 small rant but it really gets me nerves I love I love a good rant and I totally agree I felt

00:40:19.700 exactly the same last night um when reading the news about that but um I think I think that's why

00:40:24.680 it's so important isn't it because it's it's not as if it's the kind of isolated incident that

00:40:28.760 happened then and we're looking at it from afar it's it's something well it's something that still

00:40:34.180 goes on in some countries of course and also it's so related to that attitude of of not naming women

00:40:41.160 in those circumstances and and yeah not prioritizing them you know um or valuing them really their

00:40:48.340 lives i think what's really interesting about what you're doing is because you're we're we're

00:40:53.080 obviously doing in a in a talking way with the podcasts but what you're doing exploring it

00:40:57.560 through music I think is really interesting as well because that'll move people in ways that

00:41:01.940 maybe talking doesn't necessarily so I think the more ways in which that's being talked about and

00:41:06.920 explored and reckoned with I think the more chance we've got of growing as a country and actually

00:41:12.400 instead of sitting on our laurels and going oh isn't Scotland wonderful and progressive actually

00:41:16.800 in lots of ways we're not and we really need to face up to that and you know and be realistic

00:41:21.540 about it and say right well let's deal with stuff in the past and think about the impact that has

00:41:25.720 on the present and the future so good that you're doing this especially for for young people to feel

00:41:32.280 not only connected to their culture but to have a real knowledge going forward of how to treat

00:41:38.400 people and on a basic human rights level to know that this happened in their country and that

00:41:45.640 Lincoln well shouldn't happen again it's it's very important that's exactly Lauren by asking

00:41:51.980 you earlier whether or not you were taught it in school because we were taught about arable sheep

00:41:56.300 farming we learned how to leave a field fallow and what crops we could plant and stuff like that

00:42:03.960 we did learn about the highland clearances but you know as you say just a very very short time

00:42:10.280 before some of the most important parts of scottish history in terms of the way scotland

00:42:15.660 developed there was this huge period of time i mean can you imagine if you had been taught about

00:42:20.440 these women while you were at primary school and the wrong that was done to them and it just beggars

00:42:26.000 belief that we haven't talked about it or we don't as a nation although I mean one of my sort of

00:42:32.700 favorite conversational starters when people are talking about witches you say well what

00:42:37.620 witch trials what do you think of and people say Salem I say do you know how many people

00:42:42.180 how many women and men were killed as witches 19 15 women four men and all of them were pardoned

00:42:51.240 they have a beautiful memorial bench do you know how many in scotland were accused four thousand

00:42:57.320 and approximately two thousand five hundred of them killed and people just have had hopefully

00:43:03.880 now they do but as a generality people just did did not appreciate that didn't happen that was

00:43:11.560 definitely my like yeah like arthur miller is the the crucible that was kind of like my yeah

00:43:16.620 understanding really of of of it and that had a real impact i remember that having a real impact

00:43:21.720 as as a child but yeah without really realizing that but no one said you know about her own said

00:43:27.060 to you when we're doing the people nobody said just fyi at first this happened in a small scale

00:43:33.660 here and we've got the story of it and these people's names um just to let you know that

00:43:39.060 in scotland this happened on a on industrial scale we were and i think partly you know and it is

00:43:45.260 definitely an aspect that we're really interested in you know we in terms of belief you know

00:43:49.380 otherworldly kind of beliefs and things like that and that'll definitely be a part of this project

00:43:53.020 as well but i wonder whether i suppose it's like because of that that sort of muddies the water a

00:43:58.380 wee bit in in terms of people not quite realizing that this very real thing that happened that was

00:44:04.460 very in some ways a lot of that was very separate to to those beliefs you know and it was you know

00:44:09.740 people's had their own agenda for for doing what they did and I quite like the fact that a lot of

00:44:14.880 that is very it's quite dry in a sense you know it's it's not it's not mythological it's you know

00:44:20.280 and I think that's definitely interested us that there's these two very different aspects of it

00:44:24.640 but it maybe does kind of people usually when people think of witches they think of you know

00:44:29.340 all of the stereotypes don't they but I'm sure coming to what you are doing will engage people

00:44:36.020 and engage people they will they will find the both the parts of the story and it was both parts

00:44:41.720 of the story because the people that lived at the time their belief system was that of the devil

00:44:49.660 being a real thing that lived amongst us and demons and and fairies and witches familiars and

00:44:56.520 all those all those sorts of things i'm thinking in particular zoe about your very favorite witch

00:45:02.580 and and i'm very much hoping that that might be one of the ten that you deal with it's gormel

00:45:07.420 oh yeah our cat army yeah yeah yeah because she yeah she features in marie's book doesn't she um

00:45:15.820 yeah it's fantastic yeah i love that i know i know obviously that you know it's it could be

00:45:23.780 rubbish and all the rest of it but i do like the idea that in in this sort of a glimmer of

00:45:28.460 sort of raging vengeance and that she'd she had these magical cats that could set fires i just

00:45:34.260 think that's amazing i love that yeah i love that as well bachel and i as musicians and and as

00:45:41.840 artists we're always going to be drawn to you know if we're looking for inspiration on something

00:45:46.680 i suppose if you were say a historian looking through the survey of scottish witchcraft it

00:45:52.220 be a very specific historical detail that might catch your eye but for us it's something you know

00:45:58.640 something like those little stories or somebody turning into a hair or you know those things

00:46:05.160 catch your eye on an initial um aspect there was one that we just came across the other day of um

00:46:12.020 isabel elliott who was dalkeith and her trial was in edinburgh in 1678 and so she she was

00:46:21.640 accused of witchcraft but also the little folklore surrounding her was that she supposedly

00:46:27.220 turned into a bee with one of her pals in order to go and poison her victim and so those little

00:46:35.080 things I mean you can't really you can't ignore them can you they're they're little gems of

00:46:40.040 imagery that will I suppose in our writing they'll definitely inspire something but I think with just

00:46:47.340 having the two things going hand in hand there's that little aside on the bottom of her trial

00:46:52.680 record and then and then there's the very real aspect of I was just looking at all the people

00:46:58.600 who were witness the execution witness witness witness witness it's just a list of names and

00:47:04.540 it's it's really harrowing and and so you find yourself having a little little laugh at the bee

00:47:11.020 thing or the the gang of cats that go after somebody or the you know the woman that turned 0.99

00:47:16.780 into a midgie which definitely caught our eye and then you know that gives you a little bit of light 0.99

00:47:23.400 in what is a pretty dark topic to sift through. You've even got the duality in your name with as

00:47:30.840 you said at the start the heel and harrow and it's that duality that does run through it that I

00:47:36.820 suppose I mean one of the reasons we're talking about it is it's still a fascinating time in

00:47:41.820 history so we acknowledge it's a terrible time but it's still fascinating to find out about and

00:47:48.180 it's that duality and what we talk about I suppose that keeps people listening you know

00:47:53.500 it was terrible and we want to do something about it but there's also that part of us that we want

00:47:58.520 to find out what the stories were what did people believe at that time they thought what a woman

00:48:03.680 turned herself into a seal or they affected the weather weather witches were a big thing down in

00:48:09.740 because of the the sea and stuff like that so I think personally it's fair enough to acknowledge

00:48:15.640 the duality in these things and to acknowledge that they're both interesting and harrowing I

00:48:21.040 think we're all right in that and an email just arrives at that very moment

00:48:26.540 it's an email it's an email it's an email from the past so you should all be very very similar

00:48:35.740 The way that we engage as modern storytellers,

00:48:38.520 and I say that in the very loosest sense for me

00:48:40.500 because I am not creative in the way that Zoe is,

00:48:43.640 but I suppose the way that we engage is to tell stories

00:48:46.780 and the way those stories become engaging

00:48:48.440 is by the interesting parts of it,

00:48:50.840 not by the dusty parts of the story.

00:48:54.980 How can listeners get in touch with what you're doing

00:48:58.260 and follow the progress of the project?

00:49:00.540 We do have a website.

00:49:01.580 It's more of a holding page,

00:49:02.580 but if you can sign up to a newsletter on the website and there's also links to our

00:49:07.620 social media accounts so the website is healandharrow.com everything that we have

00:49:14.520 is there so far is there so yeah come and say hello brilliant well we'll post links to that

00:49:19.880 when we are posting up this podcast and we've shared already a lot when the Scotsman covered

00:49:24.600 it and you you got a great response from that article and I was really really pleased to see

00:49:31.200 so many people positively engaging with your idea yeah that was amazing pretty overwhelmed with that

00:49:37.300 to be honest it's I think as Rachel already said it's quite unusual for us to launch a project

00:49:42.800 before we've even really begun but it's been a really nice way around to do it and to hopefully

00:49:48.100 just add our voice to all the great work that you're all doing with the campaign well we totally

00:49:54.700 cannot wait I mean not only as Zoe has said before not only can we wait to just get out of our houses

00:49:59.560 at this particular time

00:50:02.420 but we absolutely can't wait

00:50:03.700 there are so many people that we want to see

00:50:06.760 but we really, really look forward

00:50:08.960 to hearing from you guys in the future

00:50:11.360 and seeing the work you're doing

00:50:12.680 so we hope you will stay in contact

00:50:14.700 and keep us updated as things happen

00:50:17.180 Absolutely

00:50:18.100 and yeah, you'll be on the guest list

00:50:19.940 definitely, for sure

00:50:21.120 once you finally get a gig

00:50:22.180 That's us made it

00:50:25.820 we're big time now

00:50:26.700 we've got a scoop

00:50:28.560 after on the guest list

00:50:29.920 we've made it

00:50:31.480 thank you so much

00:50:35.520 for joining us today

00:50:36.660 really appreciate it

00:50:38.160 thanks for having us

00:50:50.100 thanks so much

00:50:51.120 for listening to the

00:50:51.760 Witches of Scotland podcast

00:50:53.260 can't quite believe it

00:50:54.480 but next week is actually

00:50:55.420 going to be our 20th

00:50:56.540 episode and i am delighted to say that we're going to be speaking to douglas spears who is

00:51:01.860 archaeologist for fife and dundee he is so interesting and i i love this next episode

00:51:07.360 that's coming up so please do share our details on twitter instagram facebook whatever tiktok

00:51:15.060 not tiktok although we do have tiktok don't we we do i'm a lurker i'm lurking on tiktok

00:51:20.580 i don't my kids would strangulate me if they knew i was on tiktok they don't use it it's

00:51:25.580 beneath them anyway they um they please do share about what we're doing because the more people i

00:51:30.620 know i keep saying this but the more people that are listening and engaging the more likely we are

00:51:34.620 to ultimately get what we want with the campaign so please please do share and tell people about us

00:51:40.400 and it's you know it's a pleasant way to pass some time so join us next week for episode 20

00:51:45.800 thanks so much bye bye

00:51:55.580 if you'd like to learn more about the witches of scotland please subscribe wherever you get

00:52:00.860 your podcasts sign up for our mailing list at www.witchesofscotland.com to keep updated with

00:52:08.980 the campaign on that site you'll be able to find how to link with us on twitter facebook and

00:52:15.080 instagram

00:52:15.580 record record so in episode 19 i just hear my voice my voice is really really high in my head

00:52:27.980 like in my head it's it's deep it's like mariel for stops right but then when i but then when i

00:52:32.920 think about it it's actually really up here and i have to go and bring it right back down again

00:52:38.340 oh no no but your no your voice is naturally deeper mine is much higher

00:52:43.860 okay that's good that's good that there's balance then today's podcast should be like

00:52:48.460 welcome to the scotland podcast what happens when some witches wear pointy hats in scotland

00:52:56.100 right okay enchantedme.com enchanted me oh dear

Witches of Scotland - January 30, 2021

EPISODE 19 HEAL & HARROW

Episode Stats

Transcript