Witches of Scotland - EPISODE 27 HEATHER UPFIELD OF KILWINNING HERITAGE

00:00:00.200 Hi, I'm Clare Mitchell, QC. Welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:05.220 I'm a lawyer who specialises in miscarriage of justice cases,

00:00:08.740 and we're bringing you this podcast because we want to tell you about the women who were accused,

00:00:13.800 prosecuted, convicted, and ultimately executed as witches in Scotland.

00:00:18.780 I'm Zoe Vendetotsi, and I'm a writer who's always had an interest in the witches,

00:00:23.040 and I feel that this dark mark against Scotland needs a reckoning.

00:00:26.500 The campaign Witches of Scotland wants three things.

00:00:29.600 Firstly, a pardon for all those convicted of witchcraft.

00:00:33.240 Secondly, an apology for all those who were accused as witches.

00:00:37.420 And finally, a national monument in recognition of all those who were affected by this terrible miscarriage of justice.

00:00:44.420 Over the forthcoming weeks, we'll be talking to a whole host of experts about the history and the modern day connections to the witches of Scotland.

00:00:55.380 Hello and welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:58.320 We're now on episode 27, where we'll be talking to Heather Upfield about her research.

00:01:04.660 Before that, though, we would just like to talk about a few different issues that have come up.

00:01:08.260 The first thing is we just want to say thanks for all the support for our International Women's Day event that we had very recently,

00:01:16.600 where we spoke to Sarah Sheridan and we had a fantastic sellout event where there was hundreds of people there on the day.

00:01:24.480 And then people as well have accessed the recording that's available on our website.

00:01:29.600 And then we had the webinar with the Paisley organization on the Monday on Actual International Women's Day.

00:01:36.800 That was amazing. And that's available on, I think, well, will be available very soon on their YouTube channel.

00:01:43.300 So we'll put links to that. I think at the moment they are subtitling that, making that accessible for everybody.

00:01:48.780 So as soon as we have the links for that, we'll get that up too.

00:01:51.420 but it's really been wonderful and people again on this sort of the hook of international women's

00:01:56.740 day more people have got involved in it and have heard about it through all the different press

00:02:00.860 that we've had so we just want to say thank you so much for your support and let's keep it going

00:02:05.900 i should say zoe that we have our own youtube channel witches of scotland it's only got the

00:02:12.840 poem from len penny aka lenisaurus and the international women's day thing but if anyone

00:02:19.220 hasn't seen the international women's day event that we did with sarah sheridan we've got the

00:02:24.460 whole episode of that up as well and the poem and yeah it's already had it's already had loads of

00:02:31.800 views so obviously people are coming to it kind of after the event yeah and we'll be adding more

00:02:37.120 content to that as time goes on um and different things happen with the campaign basically speaking

00:02:43.260 of the campaign, Claire. Yes. So we are now in a situation where there are about 2,300 people

00:02:52.240 that have signed the petition and we are absolutely delighted about that. We never really set out with

00:02:58.560 any amount that we wanted to get to because the petition can go to the parliament without

00:03:04.000 having any signatures on it. You can simply opt to put it in. But I thought it was a really good

00:03:08.820 idea to ask people whether or not they wanted to be involved in it as well you know so we were

00:03:14.380 very excited when the names started appearing in the petition and it's just been constant really

00:03:19.880 since then and we're up at 2300 the petition finishes up on the 17th march at patrick's day

00:03:27.180 and we think it would be great if we could just get that to 2500 and that's got a symbolic

00:03:34.760 relevance for us really yeah i think that's it would be really wonderful because it would obviously

00:03:40.580 tie in with the figure of what we think of as the the amount of people that were executed so

00:03:45.880 i think it'd be really nice if we could do that and i'd really like to see a push for that

00:03:49.660 in the next few days in the next week so i think i think when this podcast's going out they'll have

00:03:55.660 a day or so oh no they'll have six no no six or seven days okay to sign it so if you're one of

00:04:03.260 the people like me who hears a thing and goes i'm definitely going to do that it's definitely going

00:04:07.900 to happen yeah and then maybe a week later it still hasn't happened it's still in mental process

00:04:14.720 it's still in mental process just think to yourself when you hear this i'm definitely

00:04:18.660 going to do it and i'm going to do it now because and honestly it's so quick like it takes it takes

00:04:24.080 no time i know people always say that to you and then you have to go through sort of seven jason

00:04:28.240 and the Argonaut type events

00:04:30.160 to get to the finish line.

00:04:32.000 But it actually is really quick.

00:04:33.800 It's very, very quick.

00:04:34.900 And I don't think you have to give

00:04:35.880 any serious detail

00:04:37.320 or anything like that.

00:04:38.960 So it would be great.

00:04:40.280 Please do sign.

00:04:40.940 Please do tell people

00:04:41.760 that don't use social media as well

00:04:43.580 because, you know,

00:04:44.980 amazingly, there are people

00:04:46.280 that do not lose chunks

00:04:47.600 of their day to social media.

00:04:49.600 So it would be helpful

00:04:50.360 if they know as well.

00:04:51.580 So thank you so much.

00:04:53.200 We've been contacted as well

00:04:54.800 by one of our tremendous listeners.

00:04:56.680 So that's somebody called

00:04:57.720 Lillian Evans who gets in touch with us from America she's really great a big supporter

00:05:01.900 we'd been talking about what widdershins meant and we've talked about this before in the past

00:05:06.440 that sometimes these words come up sort of quite archaic Scots words that we are not entirely sure

00:05:12.620 what they mean yeah and ponder a bit about it yeah because it was said in one or two of the

00:05:17.680 accusations that have come up that they were practicing widdershins or involved in widdershins

00:05:24.360 we were like okay we're having wild guesses at this i had a vague memory that it was anti-clockwise

00:05:29.500 which has been borne out by lillian so she's got in touch and has written the following so i'm just

00:05:34.680 going to read out what she wrote to us i don't know the origin of the word widdershins but it

00:05:38.600 does mean anti-clockwise and before we had clocks but often did have sundials it meant and means

00:05:43.940 against the sun or anti-sunwise as far as its usage to turn or walk a circle sunwise in the

00:05:50.360 direction of the sun yes even though we know the earth goes around the sun it seems to travel the

00:05:54.700 sky around us and moon is a good thing as in east then south then west then north i've seen the

00:06:01.260 gallic word diesel used for this it's the way of the sun the moon the seasons and the passage of

00:06:06.100 time and life to walk or turn widdershins is to go anti-sunwise in direction and has been more

00:06:11.920 often than not used in cursing or wishing ill luck on someone or something or binding them for

00:06:17.460 better or worse in a ritual a spell with some exceptions of course to some in cases of trying

00:06:23.440 to heal by way of ritual to conduct oneself physically turning widershins is not cursing

00:06:28.040 but going backward in time imagining back to before a person was hurt an accident or a sorrow

00:06:33.260 nor is turning widershins in regular dance usually regarded as ill-wishing but we can kind of

00:06:38.540 extrapolate with the idea about widershins with reference to the witches and conduct with the

00:06:43.520 devil and you know with the dances and the movements and so on that this is sort of going

00:06:47.560 against god's god's plan there is as lillian's kind of described it as being the natural way of

00:06:52.740 things if you're going against that then it's unnatural and therefore in league with the devil

00:06:56.940 so i think that makes a lot of sense i personally as a writer and english teacher i love this i

00:07:01.840 love stuff about what words mean and what they used to mean and change over time and so on so

00:07:06.680 i find that very fascinating i think we should definitely bring widdershins back just to mean

00:07:11.340 going round in the wrong direction. 1.00

00:07:13.680 I'm going to start using it.

00:07:14.640 You've gone round that roundabout

00:07:16.040 widdershins as cars come crashing to a halt.

00:07:20.140 Well, I've been teaching kids recently,

00:07:22.080 or I've used the word teaching very loosely,

00:07:24.740 some first-year kids,

00:07:25.740 how to tell the time on a clock face

00:07:27.300 because they can't do it these days. 1.00

00:07:28.720 My own children are rubbish 0.99

00:07:29.680 at telling the time on a clock face 0.99

00:07:30.840 because they just look at their phones

00:07:32.300 and it tells them.

00:07:33.460 And they know if it's their night.

00:07:35.020 So clock face usage

00:07:36.080 is definitely on the decline.

00:07:37.860 I'm going to start saying to them now,

00:07:39.120 if I was to turn these hands 0.63

00:07:40.820 withershins and that'll just add another level of confusion to the sorry state of me trying to

00:07:46.020 explain how time works which is my explanation is just like it just does okay that's why it's that

00:07:51.680 moving on thank you so much Lillian it's really helpful and we love that we love you getting in

00:07:57.860 touch it's great and we really enjoy the fact that we wake up in the morning and sometimes

00:08:01.200 there's a message from you because of our time lag so we're glad that you're enjoying the campaign

00:08:05.680 Thank you so much for your support. So as ever, we're now going to go on to look at three people

00:08:11.360 who were accused as witches. And the first one we're going to look at. Claire, you're going to

00:08:16.280 do that one, aren't you? Yeah, what I was going to say was I looked at researching these particular

00:08:21.580 ones, and I feel these are particularly sad because these are cases where it was said that

00:08:29.100 the inverted commas, which is malice, those inverted commas, was being refused charity when

00:08:35.120 they'd asked for it. So effectively what happens is a poor old woman, as it usually would be, 0.55

00:08:42.040 a poor woman would ask for charity, ask for alms in the form of shelter, in the form of food,

00:08:48.180 and were refused it. And because they were refused it, the idea was that they would place a spell

00:08:55.500 on the person who had refused them charity and some ill would befall them. So not only were

00:09:01.520 these women not getting the help they needed when they asked for food or for lodgings accommodation

00:09:08.480 but then they were being accused of witchcraft because the person that had refused them had

00:09:14.580 become ill or suspected them of putting them under a spell for having refused charity so

00:09:20.040 it's just a horrible horrible situation for these women to have been in can i just ask a question

00:09:26.440 then claire just to clarify because i find that quite a hard concept to get my head around

00:09:30.540 so somebody could be accused of witchcraft because they came and knocked on my door

00:09:34.740 I said no and then say my cat died and I would say that old wifey that I turned away and that I was

00:09:42.500 horrible to and I didn't give any help to has then made this terrible thing happen in my life and 0.90

00:09:47.540 therefore as a witch that's exactly right do you remember when we spoke with Catherine McPhee

00:09:53.160 in our earlier podcast about the gentleman about the old woman that had come to his door

00:10:00.200 and had been turned away on sky on sky exactly that was exactly a case in point she'd come to

00:10:08.760 his door asking for help and then he blamed his ills upon her it's just an incredible

00:10:14.480 psychological process where you know that you've done something wrong by someone i've done something

00:10:19.820 wrong by that old woman by not helping her by not giving her food and I mean you know not in all

00:10:25.540 cases were people bountiful with food or ability themselves this is maybe poor people asking poor

00:10:31.220 people but knowing that somebody has come to you and asked for charity and what you've done is

00:10:37.160 turned it away then to think that anything bad that happens to you is because they've cursed

00:10:43.080 you for turning them away it's a really really sad story so the first woman we want to talk to

00:10:48.880 about today is a woman called Margaret Watson she was accused twice once in 1708 and once in 1725

00:10:57.380 now as you'll know those dates certainly the last one is very close to the end of the Witchcraft

00:11:02.600 Act in 1736 so it may have been by that time views on witchcraft were changing somewhat what

00:11:10.720 we know in relation to the second allegation is that she asked for charity and was refused it

00:11:15.640 she'd asked for lodgings for a place to stay. Later, the woman of the house who refused her

00:11:21.260 lodgings took bad dreams and it was said she was out of her wits. And therefore, because she had

00:11:26.900 bad dreams and was out of her wits, she blamed the woman that had been turned away for charity,

00:11:32.360 Margaret Watson. Margaret was accused of being a witch. She was taken in and she was subject to 1.00

00:11:39.760 cross-examination and examination as to whether or not she was a witch. And she denied being a witch.

00:11:45.640 In 1725, the investigator found there was nothing that would infer the crime of witchcraft, but concluded that she was what was described as a deluder of the people.

00:11:58.140 Now, I've no idea really what that is. It sounds like some form of general fraud, and I'm not sure what that can be.

00:12:06.440 But thankfully, she wasn't convicted of the crime of witchcraft, which was alleged.

00:12:11.180 and therefore we know that she wasn't executed for witchcraft but just a horrible story of a

00:12:18.080 woman needing help not getting it and then further being accused of witchcraft. So the second person

00:12:24.020 we want to talk to you about is Johnnet Rendell. She was a woman accused as a witch in Orkney. She

00:12:29.380 went to trial in Kirkwall on the 11th November 1629. The Survey of Scottish Witchcraft says

00:12:36.720 almost all the accusations against her concerned mumbling and perceived harm after people refused

00:12:44.980 to give her arms i mean think how tragic that is zoe a woman asking for help is refused

00:12:50.180 and when she didn't get it people blamed their ills upon her because she'd been refused charity

00:12:57.680 this provided her with a motive for cursing people it's just mind-bendingly awful what does

00:13:03.700 it mean mumbling i think it actually means exactly as it says just like muttering muttering and there

00:13:10.340 was an assumption that she was maybe cursing them under her breath like literally cursing them under

00:13:14.640 her breath yeah i think that that's what it sounds like she confessed and she said she called the

00:13:21.440 devil wally man and claimed that he taught her to heal so that people would give her alms he also

00:13:28.500 taught her to harm those who had refused to give alms and of course her accusers would have been

00:13:33.540 accusing her of that so she knew exactly what she had to confess to in order to get them to stop

00:13:39.300 torturing her. She was asked also clearly about what clothes the devil was wearing. You'll remember

00:13:44.640 Zoe we had the devil dressed in black in Scotland, red in Catalonia and here she describes the devil

00:13:50.420 as wearing white clothes with a white head and a grey beard. So we know that she was accused of

00:13:58.500 We know that it was because someone had failed to give her arms

00:14:02.160 and believed that as a result of that, she had cursed them.

00:14:05.680 But sadly, there is no record of the outcome of the case of John at Rendell.

00:14:10.900 What else have we got today, Zoe?

00:14:12.720 Our third person is Janet Hairstains. 1.00

00:14:15.980 This, again, was a woman who was poor. 0.99

00:14:18.780 It appeared that she was a beggar asking for alms 0.99

00:14:20.960 and the record notes that she was asking for food. 0.89

00:14:24.080 After being accused of being a witch in May 1699,

00:14:26.820 she took voluntary banishment

00:14:28.800 from Dumfries. I mean

00:14:30.540 to take voluntary when you've already got

00:14:32.640 nothing, it's just completely crazy

00:14:34.680 So what happened was she

00:14:36.320 basically, it was like a diversion

00:14:38.960 from prosecution in the modern day

00:14:40.860 and rather than going to trial

00:14:42.960 she voluntarily left the area 0.67

00:14:45.140 So you're talking about a starving woman

00:14:47.100 being banished from the area that she lived 0.60

00:14:49.300 That's crazy. Well she reappeared 0.94

00:14:51.260 in the Kirkcubry area in

00:14:52.580 1708 and was brought

00:14:55.060 for trial after trial she was put under caution and we think this means warned and it perhaps

00:15:01.120 shows the change in view that people were coming around to the idea that witchcraft wasn't real

00:15:05.320 that's quite interesting it brings us on to this idea again about an apology as opposed to a pardon

00:15:11.500 so claire could you explain again the relevance of those two terms with our campaign yes again 0.99

00:15:18.220 pardons can only be given to those who have been convicted of offenses and poor janet hairstains is

00:15:24.300 one of the people who wasn't convicted it would appear on the first occasion and the second

00:15:28.880 occasion something happened which meant that she received a warning rather than being put to death

00:15:35.120 as we would have expected if she'd been convicted of witchcraft. So it's for someone like Janet 0.90

00:15:40.340 that we want an apology because she might not be caught by the pardon so we just want an apology

00:15:45.940 to ensure that she is also covered and she hasn't missed out by only getting an apology for those

00:15:52.360 that were convicted we might talk a bit more actually about apologies in one of our forthcoming

00:15:57.840 podcasts and have a a bit of a conversation between us because people have been asking

00:16:03.740 is it appropriate to give a pardon in these circumstances and that's quite a big question

00:16:09.340 and we've got a lot to talk about so maybe it'd be a good idea in the future Zoe if we chat about

00:16:14.200 that yeah because there's you know there's a legal dimension to this that isn't just straightforward

00:16:19.320 necessarily common sense that we need to talk about that a wee bit more are you trying to say

00:16:23.660 that my law isn't common sense no i'm saying the very opposite of that claire mitchell qc i'm saying

00:16:32.080 that because you know about the law you can explain it in a way that makes sense that it's

00:16:37.320 not just a straightforward you know these these people were pure people that just need like a

00:16:42.400 blanket they were fine you know life is complex and what we're talking about here is very very

00:16:47.880 specifically about what the people were accused and or convicted of so i think we need to talk

00:16:54.440 about that in more depth i think that would be really useful so i think you're right let us

00:16:58.140 revisit that at another point we shall we shall now we're now going to go on to talk to heather

00:17:05.320 upfield who has written a fantastic book called the five women of kill winning that we've mentioned

00:17:10.480 before in the show so she's going to talk to us about them there and these were five women who

00:17:15.580 were victims of the great Scottish witch hunt in the 17th century. The most famous of the accused

00:17:20.600 being Bessie Graham who was imprisoned in the old Abbey Bell Tower before being tried and eventually

00:17:25.620 executed and we're going to hear a lot more about that from Heather Upfield so without any further

00:17:30.580 ado welcome Heather to the show. Welcome Heather Upfield to Witches of Scotland we're delighted

00:17:44.800 to have you here today thank you and the reason that we got in contact with you was because

00:17:50.580 I firstly saw your work on the women of Kilwinning you wrote a book as a booklet a pamphlet about

00:17:58.400 the women of Kilwinning and I ordered that book and got it and read it from cover to cover found

00:18:04.240 it fascinating and I was wondering first of all if you could tell the listeners what got you

00:18:10.000 interested in the question of witchcraft and allegations of witchcraft in your local area

00:18:16.900 right well we have a very elderly lady in Kilwinning whose name is Dorothy and I won't say

00:18:25.180 more than that she's now 99 and for many years she has been saying that there was a connection

00:18:35.180 with Bessie Graham and the tower of the ruins of Kill Winning Abbey.

00:18:44.900 Now, sadly, over the years, various chairmen of various committees

00:18:50.140 didn't really take it seriously.

00:18:53.220 But for time to time, it comes up again with Dorothy,

00:18:57.320 and she'll get in touch with the provost and her local MP and the MSP

00:19:03.440 and everybody in between.

00:19:07.140 And the chairman, the current chairman of Kilwinning Heritage,

00:19:12.920 and I'm on the committee of Kilwinning Heritage,

00:19:15.440 he asked me if I would do some digging into Bessie Graham

00:19:19.460 and see whether what Dorothy had said had any veracity.

00:19:24.920 So this was in June of last year, and I was really glad to do that.

00:19:30.280 I'd just published a book through Pill Winning Heritage on the clocks and clockmakers of

00:19:36.240 Pill Winning. So I was delighted to have another project to do. And it was amazing.

00:19:42.600 Once I got started and discovered that we had five women, not just Bessie Graham. And I got so

00:19:50.300 involved in the stories of these women, as much as we know about them. And I feel I'm now an

00:19:59.040 activist with the group and I want to do as much as I can for these most unfortunate women who had

00:20:07.600 such a horrendous life and death and it affected me very deeply and also I have to say that I was

00:20:18.100 doing it in support of Dorothy who for 20 years or so to my knowledge had been trying to get

00:20:26.000 the word out. So I was doing it for her too. And what did your research, how did you go

00:20:32.440 about doing it? Was it easy to find information or was it a really big laborious task?

00:20:38.180 No, because once I got on to the Scottish Witchcraft database, then I found it easy

00:20:46.080 enough to get the names of the five women, to get a wee bit of extra information that we didn't have

00:20:53.820 before. And then through the Facebook group, Remembering the Accused Witches of Scotland,

00:21:02.820 I made links with various people who gave me further information. And I found the whole thing

00:21:10.220 was a collaboration, really, between me and the Facebook group and what I'd found on the

00:21:18.560 the database and it all helped to build up the picture i think that's one really nice aspect of

00:21:26.240 of this that claire and i have found is that it's such a collaborative collegiate approach that

00:21:31.720 people have there's people from all over scotland that have an interest that are sharing bits of

00:21:35.740 info and people are really kind i think and are really sort of positively driven yeah yeah and

00:21:42.600 i find that at my age i can encourage some of the younger ones yeah now i'm not being patronizing

00:21:51.440 and some of them who say well i've not written anything before and just giving them that wee

00:22:00.300 bit of courage to get it down and some of the tweaks they could make as well yeah and do you

00:22:06.800 have a history do you have like a history background were you a teacher like what's

00:22:11.360 What is your background that's led you to this sort of research?

00:22:14.660 Well, I've always had an interest in history.

00:22:18.280 And one of the things that I wanted to do when I retired was to do a postgraduate degree

00:22:25.780 in Scottish medieval history at Glasgow.

00:22:29.940 And it would have been feasible when I first started thinking about it.

00:22:34.580 But by the time I actually retired in 2013, the fees had gone up to about £10,000.

00:22:41.360 you know so it was just completely out of the question I wasn't going to mortgage my house

00:22:47.360 for that but I've had an interest in in history I'm something of a blue stocking really I would

00:22:54.600 say I've taught in various universities not on history but on other subjects believe it or not

00:23:03.260 I actually taught communication studies to physiotherapists in Edinburgh at Queen Margaret

00:23:11.160 universities so I was in higher education for 20 plus years so the whole research thing and

00:23:20.300 an academic approach is kind of the way I do things. We've mentioned your booklet a number

00:23:27.320 of times before but if people want to get the booklet where do they go to? Right well it's

00:23:33.840 available from Kilwinning Heritage website, but I didn't broadcast it widely because we had to get

00:23:42.160 help with printing. We're a very small heritage group and it was North Ayrshire Council who paid

00:23:49.800 for the printing and they printed off a hundred copies for us, which was absolutely lovely.

00:23:56.940 But I thought if I were to sort of advertise it widely and a thousand people responded, then, you know, there would be problems for us.

00:24:09.020 So I made it known to various people like the admins in the group.

00:24:14.720 And Zoe, I'd be happy to send you one if you'd like one.

00:24:18.660 What I did do was I put together a spreadsheet of everything that I could find on all the people in North Ayrshire who had been involved in the witchcraft trials and accusations.

00:24:36.960 And then I spread that out into the whole of Ayrshire.

00:24:40.140 So these two spreadsheets, with as much information as I could find, it's not in depth, I have to say, not like the five women, but those two spreadsheets are available on the files section of the Facebook group.

00:24:58.540 So anyone can delve into those. But I think for the time being, unless we get some more funding for printing, then it has to be kind of on a on a limited basis.

00:25:14.620 And that's just one of their library copies. Do you have copies in the libraries there?

00:25:20.540 We'll do once the libraries are open.

00:25:23.400 Of course, yes.

00:25:24.680 You know, everything's really at a standstill at the moment.

00:25:29.540 But what we're hoping to do in the World Winning Heritage

00:25:33.400 is to reopen sometime over the summer

00:25:39.160 and we'll push the books again then.

00:25:43.860 And at that point, we might be able to pay for more copies.

00:25:49.260 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

00:25:50.540 And that's not the only thing that you've done in connection with promoting the story of women that were killed as witches.

00:25:59.440 Tell us your most recent success.

00:26:02.740 Right. Well, now this was getting a street named after Bessie Graham in Kilwinning.

00:26:09.600 and I would love to be able to say that I chained myself to the council doors

00:26:17.380 until they got a name for a road.

00:26:22.420 It didn't happen like that.

00:26:24.100 It was back in the beginning of December of last year

00:26:29.600 when a local councillor put out a message on the Kilwinning Facebook page

00:26:36.400 to say that there's a new housing development that was under construction

00:26:41.520 and they were looking for names for streets in this new development.

00:26:49.500 And anyone who wanted to nominate someone,

00:26:52.320 they had to send a name with a brief history of why they should be included. 1.00

00:26:59.740 So I immediately fired off Bessie Graham.

00:27:03.280 I mean, who wouldn't, with a lot of justification.

00:27:07.680 Actually, you say who wouldn't, but I mean, nobody else has.

00:27:11.400 Well, nobody else has.

00:27:12.300 That's certainly nobody else has.

00:27:15.360 And then within our circle, it would be the first thing you'd do.

00:27:20.960 So I sent this off to the councillor and didn't think any more about it

00:27:27.120 until I got a message from him in, I think it was either the end of January or the beginning of

00:27:34.820 February, to say that Bestie Graham had been chosen. And there was now going to be a Bestie

00:27:41.920 Graham court in this new development. Now, who made that decision? I'm not absolutely certain.

00:27:49.740 It wasn't North Ayrshire Council. It's possibly kill-winning community council. That's what I'm trying to think of. So who actually ticked the box and said, yes, I'm not sure. But I was just over the moon.

00:28:04.580 But I do think it's slightly ironic, and I had a wee laugh to myself. We have Bessie Graham Court, but sadly the courts were never very kind to Bessie at the time.

00:28:21.380 So there is a kind of irony going on there.

00:28:25.860 But yes, the houses are being built.

00:28:28.800 I have a plan from the house builders to show exactly where this street will be.

00:28:36.320 And depending on how much the houses cost, I might even buy a house up there.

00:28:44.500 That would be taking your activism to a great extreme.

00:28:47.680 It would.

00:28:48.960 It would. I don't know if it's a wee bit OTT. I mean, they might be sort of five bedroom houses at £350,000 or something, which would be slightly out of my bracket.

00:29:02.340 And did Dorothy get to know about this?

00:29:05.900 Well, yes. Now, the first thing I did when I heard from the councillor that Bessie Graham had been chosen was I did phone Dorothy and tell her.

00:29:18.560 But during February, the local councillor decided to do a little piece for the local paper.

00:29:26.660 And he phoned me and said, would it be OK if we add Dorothy's name in there as well?

00:29:33.340 And I said, that would be absolutely fine. She's nearly 100. She deserves that recognition as well.

00:29:42.920 So he wrote up a little piece and sent it to the Ardrossan and Thorpe Coates Herald.

00:29:49.340 And their reporter, I think, did a wee bit of tinkering with the text.

00:29:54.360 She certainly has the byline, but it's there for all to see. Yes.

00:29:59.040 brilliant that's been shared on social media already but we'll put up another link to it

00:30:04.240 so people can read i think there's a photograph of it already online i put that up in the group

00:30:10.520 yes brilliant okay we'll certainly find that and put a link up again so do you think you'll do this

00:30:17.240 again now that you've had success once do you think you'll do that again um in in what respect

00:30:23.580 in looking to see if there are any more developments and putting in names because

00:30:27.360 It certainly sparked an interest with me and Zoe when we saw it.

00:30:32.240 Well, I don't know if there'll be anything else in Kilwinning coming up,

00:30:38.820 but I would certainly say to anyone in the group, I mean,

00:30:44.580 houses are going up in all the towns and see if you can get someone named

00:30:51.020 in your own town.

00:30:53.140 Wouldn't that be a great thing if across Scotland, across the nation,

00:30:56.480 There was these streets that then named by these, you know, women and some men that, you know, that they were then marked.

00:31:02.980 That would be really amazing, I think.

00:31:04.880 Oh, Heather, I hope you've started an activist campaign there.

00:31:10.180 Well, it might trend. You never know. But that's how I would encourage people. Yes.

00:31:16.960 Well, if somebody was to ask, sorry, Claire, if somebody was to ask, they were keen to do this sort of research themselves.

00:31:22.380 Do you have any top tips for what people should do if they want to look in their own area?

00:31:28.120 Well, I can't do anything without spreadsheets.

00:31:31.540 I was known as the queen of Excel at work because so much of my work was done in Excel.

00:31:38.620 But I find it's the best way of storing information.

00:31:42.300 You can get all your columns with principal dates, the year, name, surname, and also a column for any notes that you pick up on the way.

00:31:54.300 And then you can sort it as you go and you can get it all in year order or location order.

00:32:01.040 So I would say that keeping a spreadsheet of some sort is a good way, but also always keep a notebook.

00:32:10.620 write down everything that you do in a notebook, particularly if you're going to be using

00:32:17.120 texts, because texts have to be referenced and cited in the correct way.

00:32:23.940 And I've learned from experience of way back over the years of not writing down the details

00:32:31.280 of a book and the page number at the time.

00:32:34.860 And then you're having to compile your reference list at the end, and you find that you've

00:32:39.960 got to read through all these books and texts all over again to find the one paragraph so i i just

00:32:48.300 use notebook after notebook for every new subject that i'm involved in i had one for my clocks and

00:32:55.380 clock makers which i filled solely with that i had one for my witchcraft so i've got all these

00:33:03.240 notebooks for all the various things that i've done keep records always keep records as you go

00:33:09.540 because you don't remember things once you turn off your laptop and go off and do something

00:33:15.340 it goes out of your head well i really really look forward to the court going up and to coming

00:33:21.740 one day when we're allowed out of our house once again to the court and seeing it actually

00:33:26.540 would be absolutely amazing so that's something we'd really love to do in the future perhaps

00:33:32.460 see you there Heather. Oh yes and come to Kilwinning Abbey because the ruins of the

00:33:39.800 abbey are right in the town centre and that is where Bessie Graham was imprisoned in the ruins

00:33:47.920 so although the tower that she was imprisoned in although it was the original tower from the

00:33:54.820 medieval abbey, which stood until 1814. She was imprisoned in the old tower, which got struck by

00:34:03.920 lightning. So the tower that's there dates to 1816, but it was built on the footprint of the old

00:34:12.660 tower that she was imprisoned in. So that was the actual space that you can still go to and visit?

00:34:19.180 Yes.

00:34:19.960 Brilliant. Could you give us a little history of Bessie herself?

00:34:24.820 so that the listeners can know what we know of her story?

00:34:30.760 Right. It's very difficult because there are various old tales and stories

00:34:37.540 that she lived by the river Garnock in a little cottage

00:34:42.860 and that she was quite a cantankerous old deer who fell out with her neighbours.

00:34:50.800 But how much truth there is in that story, we don't know.

00:34:54.420 A lot of it is fable. So we're not absolutely sure. But what we do know is that at some point,

00:35:02.720 she did have a row with a neighbor, and his wife died 10 days later. So somebody reported this to

00:35:13.960 the local minister, who was James Ferguson at the time. So he picked up on this. It was his job,

00:35:23.360 you know, get these dangerous people. He had her locked in the old Abbey Tower,

00:35:30.200 but we're not sure whether it was up the tower or down the tower. There was some confusion about

00:35:35.840 that. And he went in to get her confession, but she never did confess. She never made any

00:35:45.380 confession to witchcraft at all. He employed a pricker who came along and stuck needles in her.

00:35:54.360 And again, that wasn't conclusive enough for Minister Ferguson. But on one occasion,

00:36:02.380 he went with the bellman, who is, that's the old term for the town crier. And again,

00:36:12.420 he tried to get a confession. But as they were coming away and leaving her in the cell or the

00:36:20.680 dungeon, they heard what they thought were demonic voices. Now, this surely was poor Bessie, 0.76

00:36:29.220 who must have been driven insane by being locked up in the tower, with, of course, the tower bell, 0.99

00:36:36.660 which would be ringing from time to time. And the noise of that, if you've ever been in a tower,

00:36:42.180 where the bell was rung, is horrendous.

00:36:46.100 So she was probably driven mad in some respects,

00:36:51.600 but they assumed that this was Bessie talking to the devil

00:36:57.180 and there was no going back after that.

00:37:00.760 That was enough proof as far as they were concerned, these men,

00:37:06.400 that she was guilty.

00:37:07.780 And then the Earl of Eglinton, who was one of the high hegeums, he eventually signed the papers to get her formally arrested and sent to trial in Irvine.

00:37:24.480 And again, a long list of male investigators were brought in, and sadly, she was found guilty and suffered the fate of that strangulation and burning, which was the method at the time.

00:37:41.940 Now, whether that happened in Irvine, which is two miles from Kilwinning, or whether she was brought back to Kilwinning, burnt on Corse Hill Muir in Kilwinning, we don't actually know.

00:37:55.400 Now, I live on the side of Corse Hill, so if she was burnt on Corse Hill Muir, that would just be at the top of the road as far as I'm concerned.

00:38:04.540 So I have a little garden shrine, which I've had ever since I moved in here 20 years ago.

00:38:12.960 And over the summer, I'll be planting it out as a wee memorial to our Bessie.

00:38:20.020 Oh, how lovely. That's so beautiful.

00:38:22.760 And not only have you highlighted her name, not only have you got your own memorial,

00:38:28.260 but you've got a court which I'm sure people moving in and people around will think I wonder

00:38:34.880 what that woman was I wonder why it was named after her and keep her name alive that way as

00:38:40.040 well and I hope it does them well to remember to have good relationships with their neighbours

00:38:44.680 that's one thing in that course yes very important yes well we just want to thank you so much for

00:38:54.100 coming to speak to us and telling us about your great success both in bringing the stories of

00:39:00.360 these women back to life again in a way that people can read about and also the tremendous

00:39:06.640 work that you've done to do that even if I had seen that in the papers I don't think I would

00:39:11.340 have even thought of it you know it wouldn't it wouldn't have crossed my mind but now that you've

00:39:15.780 done it it's it's a brilliant idea maybe other people will follow in your footsteps I think

00:39:21.040 And that's what I really like is that you're obviously acting as a as a person that other people are going, oh, right.

00:39:26.700 Well, I'll go and look up for my area now. And, you know, as a teacher, I just love that.

00:39:31.120 I love the fact that other people are getting engaged with these interesting areas and doing their own research.

00:39:36.200 I think it's wonderful. So well done. I think it's a great job you're doing.

00:39:39.580 Well, thank you very much, both of you. And I really appreciate you getting in touch with me and allowing me to ramble on a bit about my S.E. and my other women.

00:39:53.100 I like to be in a position where I'm sparking things off in other people and I hope that other

00:40:01.960 people do pick up on some of the things that I've done and and get confidence that oh hey you know

00:40:08.420 I can do that too and that's what it's all about for me. Well you've definitely done it it's fantastic.

00:40:23.100 thank you so much for joining us today for the witches of scotland podcast we've only got a few

00:40:31.140 days left for the signing of the petition so please please please go and sign the petition

00:40:35.120 if you haven't already and please tell people about it that you think might be interested even

00:40:39.820 tell those people who you think might not be interested they might surprise you that'd be

00:40:43.560 really great to get more signatures clear yeah just sign sign sign we look forward to seeing

00:40:50.500 you next week

00:40:51.280 thanks very much

00:40:53.100 we're not going to see them

00:40:54.720 but we can imagine them

00:40:56.180 we do

00:40:56.900 I imagine a lot of people

00:40:58.100 going

00:40:58.380 hmm

00:40:58.900 yes

00:41:00.140 in front of their computers

00:41:02.240 certainly not

00:41:05.660 oh

00:41:05.920 not them again

00:41:06.780 but anyway

00:41:07.480 thanks so much

00:41:08.880 for joining us

00:41:09.640 you'll be hearing

00:41:10.620 from us again

00:41:11.500 you will

00:41:12.240 will

00:41:13.140 okay

00:41:13.680 date

00:41:14.260 bye

00:41:15.040 that's a wrap

00:41:16.340 that is a wrap

00:41:18.000 that is a wrap

00:41:19.080 right okay

00:41:19.880 if you'd like to learn more about the witches of scotland please subscribe wherever you get

00:41:30.000 your podcasts sign up for our mailing list at www.witchesofscotland.com to keep updated with

00:41:38.100 the campaign on that site you'll be able to find how to link with us on twitter facebook and instagram

00:41:49.880 Thank you.

Witches of Scotland - March 13, 2021

EPISODE 27 HEATHER UPFIELD OF KILWINNING HERITAGE

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