00:00:00.200Hi, I'm Clare Mitchell, QC. Welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.
00:00:05.200I'm a lawyer who specialises in miscarriage of justice cases,
00:00:08.740and we're bringing you this podcast because we want to tell you0.61
00:00:11.580about the women who were accused, prosecuted, convicted,
00:00:15.720and ultimately executed as witches in Scotland.
00:00:18.780I'm Zoe Vendetotsi, and I'm a writer who's always had an interest in the witches,
00:00:23.040and I feel that this dark mark against Scotland needs a reckoning.
00:00:26.480The campaign Witches of Scotland wants three things.
00:00:29.600Firstly, a pardon for all those convicted of witchcraft.
00:00:33.240Secondly, an apology for all those who were accused as witches.
00:00:37.420And finally, a national monument in recognition of all those who were affected by this terrible miscarriage of justice.
00:00:44.420Over the forthcoming weeks, we'll be talking to a whole host of experts about the history and the modern day connections to the witches of Scotland.
00:00:53.720Hello and welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.
00:00:56.620This week we are on episode 28 and we're going to be taking an international look today because we're going to be speaking to the editor-in-chief of the Catalan historical magazine Sapiens and about their newly launched campaign for the people accused of witchcraft in Catalonia.
00:01:16.880Before that, we're going to be talking about a few things that have happened this week. It's been a busy old week, hasn't it, Clare?
00:01:22.380It has been a very, very busy week. On the 17th of March, the petition closed. And what was the number, Zoe? Are we 3,400 approximately?
00:01:34.720I think so. Yeah, round about there with a few odd numbers after it.
00:01:38.200Amazing. So, so many people having signed the petition. I mean, close to the number of people who were alleged to have been involved in the witchcraft trial.
00:01:46.120So that closed. And on the same day it closed, there was a Scottish government response to the petition that had been put in.
00:01:54.920And I must say, I don't know about you, Zoe, but I was over the moon about the response that the Scottish government has given us.
00:02:02.320There's two things that I think are really important.
00:02:04.160The first is that for the first time, as far as I'm aware, ever, the Scottish government or indeed any official body in Scotland has actually acknowledged the wrong done to women and men who were killed in the time of the witchcraft trials.
00:02:22.040they said that the and this is a quote the Scottish government acknowledges that those
00:02:27.600accused and convicted of the offence of witchcraft were women who faced discrimination and had very
00:02:33.500little protection in law from allegations of criminality including witchcraft so for you know
00:02:42.280the first time it's an acknowledgement that these people suffered a miscarriage of justice
00:02:50.200yeah I mean that's huge it's absolutely huge I mean they go on to say whilst undoubtedly much
00:02:57.420remains to be done since then society has vastly improved and women's rights have been acknowledged
00:03:02.760and put into law it's a priority for the Scottish government to achieve women's equality and further
00:03:08.480women's rights in Scotland part of this is to ensure that processes are in place and accessible
00:03:13.660to adequately challenge outdated and harmful views on the role of women in society and I am
00:03:21.780delighted that not only have the Scottish government engaged with the fact that this is a
00:03:28.060current women's issue it's everyone's issue I should I say but a current issue involving women
00:03:34.840and they they get and they see the relevance to the modern day the second thing that I think was
00:03:41.640really important in what the government response was that they accepted the argument that was put
00:03:48.240in the petition which was that there were similarities between the men who were convicted
00:03:53.860of offences under the Homosexuality Act getting a pardon and also those convicted under the
00:04:03.300Witchcraft Act and what the Scottish government say is there is recent precedent for legislation
00:04:09.220in the area of pardons. The Historical Sexual Offences, Pardons and Disregards Scotland Act
00:04:16.0002018 provided for a pardon for all those who are convicted under discriminatory laws
00:04:22.780or where more general laws had been used in a discriminatory manner in respect of same-sex
00:04:29.380sexual activity where the same activity between people of a different sex was not criminalised.
00:04:35.480There are clearly similarities between the injustices of those convicted in a discriminatory manner for same-sex sexual activity and the injustices of women classed as witches many centuries ago, which could justify legislative steps being taken in this area.
00:04:56.460so I think that was quite frankly more than I could ever have imagined that the Scottish0.99
00:05:03.020government would come back and say immediately I mean I did think the point was right and the
00:05:07.400point we were making is right but I'm just so delighted that it's immediately been seen
00:05:12.260by the Scottish government. I think it's remarkable actually that that's happened in it so quickly
00:05:18.040and it's brought into quite stark contrast with something else that's happened this week
00:05:22.760with one of the big bodies that's in Scotland, which is the National Trust.
00:05:28.820So, Claire, what was it that we discovered this week that the National Trust were planning on doing?
00:05:34.660So, yes, Zoe, we were contacted on Twitter by Dr Johnston Smith,
00:05:39.980bringing to our attention an article that had been written by the National Trust for Scotland.
00:05:45.720And they'd been writing about the refurbishment of Gladstone's land.
00:05:49.960and in the article they said that they were naming a holiday apartment after William Struthers
00:05:57.660and the article is about the refurbishment of Gladstone's land and it had as part of the article
00:06:04.460sort of inset which said an eminent cleric sat in his splendid chamber writing hellfire sermons
00:06:11.680and pondering a suspected witch's fate. The article also said he was involved in the trial
00:06:18.220of women suspected of witchcraft, among them Marion Muir, who was later executed. The article
00:06:25.080goes on to say that the holiday apartment, quote, includes playful references to the lives and times
00:06:30.960of this cantankerous figure. And I just read that and I thought, you're naming a holiday apartment
00:06:39.540in relation to a man who had involvement in the witchcraft trials, where you're saying that he
00:06:47.640was involved in the trials of women and involved in a case where a woman was executed and you
00:06:53.040think that's appropriate for a name for a holiday apartment is it just i think i think also no it's
00:07:01.220not just you i think you're right and i think it goes to the fact that people generally and this
00:07:06.500is part of one of the one of the angles of our campaign is to educate people and to get them to
00:07:10.480think a little bit more about this which is that people just still often see the witches and the
00:07:16.940witch trials is kind of funny like or really not that important or so long ago that it doesn't
00:07:21.840match anymore and I think it's because you know as we say every week I think on the podcast that
00:07:27.240it's really important to think of the people that were executed the men and the women as being
00:07:32.640people I think that a lot of people have lost sort of touch with that I'm pretty saddened that the
00:07:37.220National Trust who I imagine are pretty into accuracy in historical research are so unthinking
00:07:43.960You know, there's lots of different publications that I would sort of think, well, you know, they're not duty bound necessarily to be particularly intelligent about that.
00:07:50.980But the National Trust really don't think that they've got an excuse for this. I think it's pretty crummy.
00:07:56.640Zoe, they did a brilliant article on International Women's Day about the scolds bridal. And they talked about the way that it had been described in a log, it had been described as something used for blathering women or something.
00:08:14.920And they were holding that up and saying, look, isn't this wrong? It's wrong to remember history in this way. And on International Women's Day, essentially, we should do better, that institutions should think about these things.
00:08:30.240So, you know, only a week and a half ago, they were saying, this is what we should do, institutions should do better. And then this article comes out. What I would say, though, is that they said that they would like to talk with us.
00:08:46.900An article in The Scotsman says that the National Trust for Scotland says it wants to talk to the witches of Scotland about how it represents this challenging element of Scotland's history, which saw many women needlessly suffer.
00:09:01.840I mean, I think the first thing they can do is decide not to name that holiday apartment after a man who was involved in the witch trials and maybe think about naming it after a woman of the 17th century.
00:09:16.900I mean, I know that this is a crazy thought, right?
00:09:20.880But you know how we are slightly more than half of the population.
00:09:25.520It could be occasionally nice just to remember0.99
00:09:28.900that women are part of our country.1.00
00:09:34.760It would allow us to reflect on the fact
00:09:36.620that there were actually women in the 17th century,
00:09:39.700you know, at all, that we could have fun recognition of them.
00:09:43.340Yeah, that men just didn't just spring out of,
00:09:46.540you know, the ground that there were women giving birth to men and also doing stuff in their lives.
00:09:53.160You know, it's just it really drives me absolutely bananas that there isn't just an immediate thought of,
00:09:59.040you know, we're really aware of the fact that there's a huge, hugely skewed tendency to memorialise men everywhere.
00:10:07.000Right. Not just in this country, but in this country. OK, so we know that.
00:10:11.420So why are the National Trust not thinking, well, is there a woman that might be of interest here?
00:10:16.540Now, I'm not saying, you know, that necessarily there are millions of women to choose from,
00:10:21.460because God knows there's probably not that much of a record of women that did that much in the same way that we have recorded men's history.
00:10:27.980But come on, think a wee bit about, you know, what women's part has been in history.
00:10:34.240So, yeah, I'm on a bit of a tear today, actually.
00:10:37.160So I should just calm down a little bit.
00:10:38.860Let's move on and let's name some people who were involved in witchcraft trials and tell their story.
00:10:49.960Today, unsurprisingly, I have decided to name the woman Marion Muir.
00:10:56.880Now, if you don't know who Marianne Muir is, Marianne Muir is the woman who was involved in the witchcraft trial where William Struthers was one of her investigators.
00:11:11.600So the holiday apartment, which the National Trust is naming after William Struthers, we want to speak today about Marianne Muir, the woman that was killed in a witchcraft trial.
00:11:23.460Marion Muir was a woman from Leith. We know that she was widowed.
00:11:27.780We know that there were five commissioners in the case against her and two investigators, one of them being William Struthers.
00:11:36.160We know that Mr Struthers was a minister at St Giles in 1614 and then again at 1626 to 1633.
00:11:45.320He was involved as an investigator in relation to her trial whilst he was ministered at St Giles.
00:11:52.500and she was executed in 1632. It was said that she had entered into a demonic pact,
00:11:59.480what is described as an anti-baptism, where she had been given the new name of Catherine.
00:12:05.840She was said to have made a deal with the devil. I think what I should say is that this is how we
00:12:11.740should honour the dead whose lives were taken in the most brutal way and a terrible miscarriage
00:12:15.900of justice, by remembering them and not the people involved investigating the case against her.
00:12:22.500Zoe you're going to tell us about some more people who were involved in witchcraft trials
00:12:28.420except this time a bit further from home. Yeah now I've picked something that I think is really
00:12:34.420quite interesting here with relevance to what we're talking about today. I'm looking at something
00:12:39.500that happened in Catalonia but it's something called the Navarre Witch Trials that happened in
00:12:44.9001525 to 1526. And I think what's interesting about this is because it's like the first cases
00:12:52.560of witch trials where the church got involved. Now, it doesn't name the witches, but I do think
00:12:57.440that this is quite interesting. So because of these witch trials, it led to the church's
00:13:02.600involvement and then sort of preceded what the Spanish Inquisition were going to do when they
00:13:07.480conducted the witch trials. So in 1525, the council at Navarra sent a special commissioner to inspect
00:13:14.660the mountain regions of the Navarrese northeastern Pyrenees.
00:13:19.840And there's a quote here that were described at the time as
00:13:22.440where for a long time they had not known
00:13:24.520what temporal or spiritual justice means.
00:13:28.260The commissioner brought along two girl witches
00:13:30.400who know how to discover witches, it said as well.
00:13:33.440They were young girls of nine and 11 years old, sisters.
00:13:38.180And the two girls were brought on the tour by the commissioner,
00:13:40.880inspected the villagers looking for signs of the devil's mark in the villagers eyes.
00:13:46.320Now, unsurprisingly, from what we know about witch trials in other places,
00:13:49.780this led to a number of accusations and then trials.
00:13:54.020The commissioner arrested and then executed unspecified number of people
00:13:58.680for witchcraft in five different places.
00:14:02.000He purchased masses for the confiscated property of the condemned0.54
00:14:05.560to ask the blessing of God for his missions.
00:14:08.100This is all very much bound up with the religion.
00:14:10.760The Navarri's witch hunt, however, provoked intervention by the Supreme Council of the Spanish Inquisition.
00:14:16.940And in August of 1525, the Inquisition was granted jurisdiction over the witch hunt and the 30 people that were left that had been accused of witchcraft were handed over to them.
00:14:27.600They also insisted on inspecting the ongoing witch trials, which sort of chimes a wee bit with what we've said about Scotland and the Privy Council.
00:14:35.120In December 1525, the Spanish Inquisition then issued guidelines on how to deal with witch trials.
00:14:41.320So they became a bit more formalized and the guidelines said such things as they needed to be sceptical about spells, which caused most accusations and death sentences.
00:14:52.140they banned the confiscation of the property of anyone condemned for witchcraft and they reserved
00:14:58.140for the inquisition the right to try witches and paid more attention to re-educating witches rather
00:15:03.960than issuing death sentences so they were less inclined to kill those that had been accused of
00:15:09.420being witches and more inclined to think that they could be in some way rehabilitated. These guidelines
00:15:14.760were then followed by the Spanish Inquisition in witchcraft cases from 1526 until 1609 when the
00:15:21.960Basque witch trials occurred. During that time, many people were executed by the Inquisition
00:15:27.020in Spain, especially in Navarre. The largest persecution in Navarre took place in 1527
00:15:33.160and it was led by the Inquisitor Avellanida. I hope I'm saying that properly. I don't know
00:15:39.140if it's Avellanida. Sorry if I'm getting that wrong. Acting on the same valleys, the Navarrese
00:15:44.900Royal Council Deputy had punished in 1525 and that resulted in approximately 80 residents who
00:15:51.560were burnt to death, I think. The Spanish Inquisition didn't always succeed in keeping
00:15:56.120the secular courts from dealing with witchcraft cases, and a failure to do so resulted in a great
00:16:01.500witch hunt in Catalonia between 1618 and 1622, where there was about 100 victims, until that
00:16:08.780was then subdued, and that sort of rash of trials then stopped. And then after 1622, the number of
00:16:17.260witch trials dwindled in Spain until the mid-17th century. So that's just a bit of an overview
00:16:23.500using Wikipedia, thank you very much, about what had actually happened with the early days with
00:16:29.620the involvement of the Spanish Inquisition. So it's interesting to see that it was echoed that
00:16:34.000things kind of got out of hand somewhat and that then there was a bigger body that came in and said
00:16:39.020listen we need to sort this out which definitely echoes what we've read about and know about in
00:16:42.940Scotland. I think it's kind of surprising to me that the Spanish Inquisition appears to be the
00:16:47.120voice of reason for a while that's a kind of I was quite stunned by that yeah yeah and during the
00:16:52.680Spanish Inquisition which I could talk about another time but I noticed that the different
00:16:56.520things that they came and looked for in different communities one of the aspects that was you know
00:17:01.460wrong obviously in the eyes of the church was witchcraft where it goes into a bit more detail
00:17:05.800and it chimes with our expert today I was going to say expert witness it chimes with our expert
00:17:10.880coming to speak to us today yes so we're very happy to be introducing to the podcast the editor
00:17:17.000in chief of Catalan's historic magazine Sapiens and that is Sonia Casas.
00:17:34.800Hello there and welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast. It's great to have you here
00:17:39.760Sonia Casas. I'm wondering if you might start us off by telling us who you are and why it
00:17:46.400that we have you on the podcast today.
00:18:15.400It's a sort of reference for many people.
00:18:18.120And what in particular is it about sapiens that has something to do with the witches of Scotland?
00:18:25.960Yes, because, well, last week we launched a campaign with the slogan,0.58
00:18:32.360No eran bruxas, eran donnas, which means they were not witches, they were women.
00:18:37.820And this campaign is linked to a long research done by two historians, Pau Castell and Agustin Alcoverro, right?
00:18:48.040So it's a mixture. There's the investigation, the historical investigation, and we have transformed this in a campaign that is influenced by your own campaign in Scotland.
00:19:00.020And this is true. We saw your campaign.
00:19:02.540We also saw different movements in Switzerland, in Norway, in Germany.
00:19:09.540So we were inspired by that and we mixed both things.
00:19:14.080And we thought that March was a great month to release this issue.
00:19:19.440And what is it that your campaign actually wants?
00:22:09.980Well, many of these women were immigrants.
00:22:12.480There were poor women, killing women as well, all single women, widows, women without the structure of a family and the protection, you know, and all of them were stigmatized, pointed out by their own neighbors or neighbors, male and women.
00:22:31.960And we have to say that as well, because it's true that they were accused also for many, many other women.
00:22:39.000But I think that it works also like this as a claim for women repression in general.
00:22:45.720Do you think it has a 21st century meaning as well?
00:22:50.080Does it have a meaning to women in Catalonia currently?
00:22:54.800Yes. In fact, the campaign, let me tell you that it's been a success.
00:22:59.740We are overwhelmed and we are very, very happy because for this as well, because this time everyone has reacted very, very well, even groups, very little involved, and persons, little involved in matters of historical claims.
00:23:19.240these groups and I'm talking about I don't know feminist activists or teenagers and many teenagers
00:23:27.120as well they have felt appealed because for this because these so-called witches work as a symbol
00:23:34.180of the repression that women have traditionally suffered through history so the response have
00:23:39.420been very very positive. Have you had any criticism? We've had a very small amount of
00:23:44.740criticism but you know it's just been overwhelmingly positive no as far as I know we don't have
00:23:50.860received any criticism and in this it's one week that we released the campaign and more than 10,000
00:23:58.700people have signed up our manifesto it's on our website and we have also received the support of
00:24:06.300many public and private institutions we are collecting now support videos from lawyers
00:24:12.260artists there are a feminist activist and there are 150 academic and history professors
00:24:21.060from all different catalan universities that are joining and supporting the campaign
00:24:26.400criticism as far as i know we we don't have received it and are you in barcelona well we are
00:24:34.060now doing yes we are a little bit spread because everyone is home working uh from home and yes
00:24:41.440our based in our newsroom is in barcelona we are going to barcelona once per week now with
00:24:48.520the covid and so on we have discovered that working from home it's it has good things and
00:24:55.020bad things yeah it's amazing though that even though everybody's on on lockdown and is working
00:25:00.880from home and so on that people have gotten so behind the campaign so quickly with you i mean
00:25:06.06010,000 signatures in one week is amazing we're delighted with the fact that we've got about
00:25:11.5202,300 signatures after about five weeks like for us we think that's really huge but 10,000 is
00:25:18.240remarkable we've only had a small amount of criticism but there has been a little bit but
00:25:23.380it's often people that are quite ironically they're quite stuck in the past they don't view
00:25:28.440it as being important to try and think about the past and the impact that it has on the present
00:25:33.860and in fact the future so i would say those people tend to be old-fashioned they think we
00:25:38.960should just shut up and move on that's that basically is what the criticism has been
00:25:43.200the key of the success has been i think that we have organized it uh uh there has been a good
00:25:49.780marketing plan because we had a video very impact video was yeah healing and with actresses and
00:25:58.220well-known people here and also the media has every march now the media i suppose in scotland
00:26:06.900is the same during the first week of march there's a lot of articles and news about women all this
00:26:13.700movement and well for the the media was good to have this this campaign because it's a historical
00:26:20.140campaign it's different from the usual feminist movements and they found it interesting and0.78
00:26:26.700And they have given us a lot of support and the mainstream TV and radio stations, they have interviewed us during the last week.0.80
00:26:38.560So this helped us to spread the message and to achieve this 10,000.
00:26:44.060I think that now there were 12,000 already.
00:31:25.020Another thing that we have included, and it's like the most important part, historically talking, is the research they have done.
00:31:36.960What they have done, these two historians?
00:31:40.600Well, they have gone through the archives and they have collected all the data concerning the trios, the women that have been prosecuted and executed, the men that were witch hunters and make it like a way of living, you know.
00:32:01.680They have collected all this data and we have put it together in the magazine, but also in an interactive map in our website.
00:32:14.140So what is happening now? That people from Girona, from Yeda, from small towns, they can go to this map and they see what witches were executed or just judged there in their own towns.
00:32:30.060what were their names what happened in the trio all all the data we we have that these two
00:32:36.680historians have so we're proud of that because it's very it has been a huge work that our
00:32:42.500internet the journalists that have done it she has done a lot of work but because there are 700 names
00:32:49.820700 names of women in all spread all Catalonia and now you can go to this map and search the
00:32:59.080interactive map and you will see we will put links on our socials to you can do that we already have
00:33:08.940that we were very lucky that some of our academics Dr Louise Yeoman and Professor Julian Goodyear
00:33:15.180two academics we've spoken to Professor Goodyear they did a survey of Scottish witchcraft and
00:33:22.820collated all the information and then later an interactive map was made so we have the same
00:33:29.660people in Scotland can go online can go to their local area and see it provides a real impact where
00:33:36.580people can see locally where this thing happened I think it's very powerful yes it's very powerful
00:33:42.960and we it has been a long work but now we are like receiving the the good feedback from all
00:33:50.080these towns for this reason these towns now are interested in doing things because they now they
00:33:56.040have a name a surname they have a story you have when you have the story it appeals to you directly
00:34:02.900it's not women it's katarina tal sala and she was 43 she was widow you know you have a story there
00:34:13.740and that's what it's nice to to land the big history landed to the small
00:34:20.000histories of the personal people exactly we we feel that really strongly in each episode of
00:34:27.180our podcast we name three individual women or men or three individual stories and so that we
00:34:34.680each week are saying remember these people remember this was just a person just like you
00:34:39.680just like me they weren't necessarily doing anything strange or unusual they were just
00:34:43.300living their lives and somebody saw fit to accuse them we think that's really really important and
00:34:48.300then they make that connection in their mind of oh this isn't just a number this is an actual person
00:34:52.600and then I think that there's not really a way that you can then say oh it's not important or
00:34:56.640I don't care or just leave it I think once you start to think of it in terms of their people
00:35:00.460your your humanity kicks in and you say ah right yeah of course of course this is a good thing
00:35:05.700you sum up very well what i wanted to say what's next what's next for your campaign is that the
00:35:14.400campaign fully launched now and then you just keep promoting it or is there something else to come
00:35:19.100no no it goes i mean we started and now we'll see where where it goes uh we we hope in the next
00:35:26.920month there are several times reos they have said they were very interested different city
00:35:33.260different locations they have already asked us to go there or present the magazine or you know
00:35:41.160to have the historians there doing a conference and let's see let's see how it works we we expect
00:35:48.420going all this year I mean until autumn maybe we would like in autumn maybe we can do a
00:35:54.640another another act we we have already done it last week we were in Barcelona
00:36:01.040in Palau Robert, in Pasex de Gracia, in the city centre.
00:36:06.100And we had a presentation with your video.
00:36:12.160We were very, very surprised to find ourselves being beamed into...