Witches of Scotland - EPISODE 53 - PARDONING THE WITCHES OF CATALONIA

00:00:00.160 Hi, I'm Clare Mitchell, QC. Welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:05.220 I'm a lawyer who specialises in miscarriage of justice cases,

00:00:08.740 and we're bringing you this podcast because we want to tell you 0.61

00:00:11.560 about the women who were accused, prosecuted, convicted,

00:00:15.800 and ultimately executed as witches in Scotland.

00:00:18.800 I'm Zoe Vendetotsi, and I'm a writer who's always had an interest in the witches,

00:00:23.040 and I feel that this dark mark against Scotland needs a reckoning.

00:00:26.720 The campaign Witches of Scotland wants three things.

00:00:29.580 Firstly, a pardon for all those convicted of witchcraft.

00:00:33.120 Secondly, an apology for all those who were accused as witches.

00:00:37.420 And finally, a national monument in recognition of all those who were affected by this terrible miscarriage of justice.

00:00:44.420 Over the forthcoming weeks, we'll be talking to a whole host of experts about the history and the modern day connections to the witches of Scotland.

00:00:53.640 Hello and welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:57.240 Claire you're never going to believe

00:00:59.520 What's gone and happened

00:01:00.840 I think I will Zoe

00:01:03.000 We've only gone and recorded

00:01:05.040 Another episode of the Witches of Scotland

00:01:07.940 Blooming podcast

00:01:09.260 When will it end?

00:01:11.140 It's never going to end baby

00:01:12.940 No it's good

00:01:15.520 I just can't believe there are so many people

00:01:17.420 That are endlessly fascinating

00:01:18.920 It's really great

00:01:20.020 And today is an interesting one

00:01:21.960 Because instead of just having one guest

00:01:23.740 We've got two because of some stuff that's coming up

00:01:26.500 but more of that anon. I was just wondering, Claire, is there any news that you'd like to

00:01:33.160 share with us? I think we can share quite a lot of news today. The biggest bit of news

00:01:38.900 is that we went down to Parliament and we gave evidence. What was that like, Zoe?

00:01:44.720 It was cool. Well, to be entirely clear, you went down to Parliament. I was on my phone,

00:01:50.780 like a video link up in the sqa cupboard in my school so i was in the cupboard with my phone

00:01:58.740 propped up in a couple of boxes and a biscuit tin but that was quite exciting the bell rang at one

00:02:03.040 point which made me feel quite stressed that they would hear that in parliament but i think it was

00:02:06.660 okay i think we winged it but it was cool it was really cool wasn't it oh it was brilliant i mean

00:02:12.040 apparently we were the first people back to give evidence in person i was the first person to come

00:02:19.060 back to the committee and give evidence in person since the pandemic so the first person in two

00:02:23.440 years so i don't know if that was why we got a warm welcome but and it's available to watch isn't

00:02:28.560 it so if people want to yeah it's a little bit of a long watch it's about 45 minutes but we've

00:02:34.260 shared it on twitter we've shared it on facebook we'll probably put links to it on the witches of

00:02:39.900 scotland page as well because i think it really well encapsulates a lot of what we wanted to talk

00:02:45.580 about i really thought that the questions they were asking showed that they had taken on board

00:02:51.480 what the campaign was about and i don't know about you but i felt that they were really genuinely

00:02:55.020 interested oh definitely and i was i was quite taken with the fact that there was people from

00:03:00.020 different parties that all seemed to be supportive yeah you know and their their questions were

00:03:05.120 definitely very positive it didn't feel like there was any questions that were you know not that they

00:03:09.120 would do this but they were trying to trip us up or that they they felt it was a waste of time or

00:03:13.180 anything like that it all seems quite sensible they could though I mean if they thought something

00:03:17.200 was not sensible they could have certainly said they could have certainly been really challenging

00:03:22.780 and I mean I think they did ask us a lot of important questions like why now what kind of

00:03:28.040 people were accused what's the point of it what's the point of a national memorial but yeah I just

00:03:33.460 felt they were really really engaged with it so that is the first thing in the news we were

00:03:38.580 absolutely delighted to be asked down and hopefully we've made a good impression on them

00:03:44.320 and the campaign obviously is going to be put forward by them essentially what we were saying

00:03:50.180 to them was we want a legislative pardon we want to ask on international women's day that an apology

00:03:58.120 be given and we want a national memorial please can you assist us by recommending to parliament

00:04:04.060 that these things happen. Now slightly complicatingly with the timing of it I'm not

00:04:09.380 sure whether or not the committee will be able to meet again before the 8th to recommend anything

00:04:15.800 about the apology so I'm not sure time-wise if they're going to be able to do that but we are

00:04:20.980 going to write to the committee and just remind them of that time issue and see whether or not

00:04:26.660 as a committee they might meet perhaps on email or something like that and if they agree that

00:04:31.680 that's the right thing to do to put that forward to parliament or to the government because i'm not

00:04:37.160 quite sure how otherwise they would do it it's great though to see that there's just so much

00:04:42.160 uptake from people so much support after you know two years of pretty hard work on our part i'm not

00:04:48.080 saying it's not fun and it is it's interesting to do you know jokes aside of how many podcasts

00:04:52.480 we've done it definitely helped keep me sane during lockdown and it's really amazing to be

00:04:57.760 involved in something that's so sort of big and potentially very sort of historic that's been

00:05:02.260 great but it's really nice to see there's so much broad support for the campaign oh yeah absolutely

00:05:08.360 what's funny is it's good that what's kept us seen during lockdown is slowly driving us mad

00:05:13.140 when lockdown is easing up because we've just got so much stuff to do and just a quick insight into

00:05:20.820 lives neither of us are particularly good at transpires at diarising things would you say

00:05:25.600 that was fair Zoe I think that's very fair and it's nice because there's a constant surprise

00:05:31.020 every day of what we've agreed to do and then we realize we have to do it so that's good that's

00:05:35.760 nice keeps us on our toes I think definitely yeah and then that leads us on to the next stage then

00:05:42.100 so well another another stage it's not really the next stage but something else that's happening

00:05:46.300 and what is that Claire yes in the news news item number two is that the consultation process for

00:05:53.560 the private members bill is now underway. So what happens is they have to produce a public

00:05:59.520 consultation document. And that document is drawn up by the bills unit and Natalie Dawn,

00:06:06.100 who's bringing forward the private members bill. And it sets out the background to the

00:06:11.800 Witches of Scotland campaign, why the legislation is being sought. And it asks people to contribute

00:06:19.620 by answering the consultation process so we've now been sent the consultation process to have a read

00:06:27.500 of we're just reading through that at the moment and it's now almost ready to be sent out to the

00:06:32.760 public so Zoe this is an amazing chance this is a chance for each and every person who has ever

00:06:39.200 been interested to get involved to be part of this historic movement to have these people

00:06:45.580 mostly women pardoned so if and when we put out the forms please do fill out the consultation 0.72

00:06:52.320 forms you can do that if you're an individual you can do it as groups you can do it as companies

00:06:58.180 and share share share people keep contacting us now and saying can we sign the original petition

00:07:05.240 can we sign the petition for public sport and I've said to them no but there might be something

00:07:09.840 that you can sign in the future this is it this is the document where you have your say

00:07:14.540 and you get to tell everyone the strength of feeling that you have for supporting the campaign

00:07:20.440 to have those people who were executed as witches pardoned so please do when we share that with you

00:07:28.140 guys share it far and wide with all your contacts so we have as many people as possible getting back

00:07:34.700 in contact and telling them about the strength of feeling fantastic that's brilliant and also

00:07:42.260 because we're building up to international women's day which is obviously when we launched it's an

00:07:47.540 important anniversary for us we have got some events over the course of that day and the day

00:07:53.320 before and after but on the actual night of international women's day so that's the 8th of

00:07:57.920 march we are doing an event at the national library of scotland which is a zoom event we're

00:08:03.320 going to go there to record it but that's then going to be zoomed out to everybody and i know

00:08:07.700 that that has already the other day had 300 tickets sold to that one already so i don't know

00:08:13.000 if i told you that actually claire no no but when you say tickets sold the event's free isn't it

00:08:17.460 oh yeah not sorry sold is entirely the wrong word tickets requested reserved obtained people have

00:08:23.840 booked in i don't know people have taken their virtual seats they have but 300 300 people anyway

00:08:31.140 at that point had shown an interest that'll be interesting so it's the two of us and i think

00:08:36.880 that we're going to be talking to amina shah initially who is the head librarian of the

00:08:43.340 national library of scotland so i think she's like the heady for the whole of scotland's libraries

00:08:48.120 she's the high heechin she's the high heechin yeah yeah she's marvelous and a supporter of

00:08:53.800 the campaign from the beginning so that'll be really that'll be cool and again like you're

00:08:58.560 saying i'll just stress that again it's free so we'll have links on we've been linking it already

00:09:03.520 on Twitter and on Facebook but we'll keep doing that in the run-up to it so people are interested

00:09:07.900 and I presume you can watch that wherever you are in the world then you'll see the two of us

00:09:12.840 having a wee chat about the campaign there and about what's happening and particularly on

00:09:17.520 International Women's Day because obviously we've got that big art event in the morning

00:09:21.840 with our good friend Laura Graham who's doing her soul murder series but we'll talk about that

00:09:27.960 later on but we're doing that and then hopefully there'll be other things happening as well on

00:09:31.920 International Women's Day. So that'll be cool. So that leads us on to a much less civilised point

00:09:38.520 of conversation. Did you hear, ladies and gentlemen, did you hear that change in tone?

00:09:42.820 This is my Mrs. Venditotsi voice. Oh my goodness, I'm sitting up street actually.

00:09:47.220 And somebody has been naughty. This is beyond naughty though. I wouldn't just be giving this

00:09:51.600 guy a punny. Pastor Jack's at it again in America. Now I don't want to trivialise what he's doing by

00:09:58.120 being funny because actually this is incredibly serious and potentially really really dangerous

00:10:03.600 he has now recently this footage has come out this is the chap that burned the books before

00:10:09.700 you'll remember he's all about freedom to express yourself as long as it's the way he wants you to

00:10:14.880 express yourself he's now been recorded in one of his sermons i guess you'd call them

00:10:20.180 a really bizarre sort of bit where he has named or has said there are three witches in his

00:10:27.180 congregation and says such things as we know who you are you have to leave they're new to the area

00:10:32.720 and what's chilling about it is not just that he's saying these things it's not like it's a comedy 0.84

00:10:38.620 piece he's serious it's that the way that the crowd are getting behind him and cheering and

00:10:43.440 whooping it's absolutely horrific and it really made the two of us very much think about what it

00:10:48.320 must have been like in the days of the witch hunts in Scotland and what it must be like for those

00:10:53.060 people who are being accused of it now in parts of the world it's just really horrific and it's

00:10:58.120 just incredibly threatening and he says things like he knows what their names are and it's sort

00:11:02.720 of like beyond parody in some way because at one point he says something like and one of these

00:11:07.380 women is in my wife's bible study group you know and it's just like you know people must know who

00:11:13.700 he's talking about and those people surely are probably in danger you know if they're they're

00:11:18.420 not in physical danger then they're in danger of you know the things we talk about on the podcast

00:11:22.640 about isolation and banishment and that sort of thing so it's just absolutely horrific what i

00:11:27.580 think is really scary when you watch it is you see the exact tricks that are used to get people

00:11:35.080 on side it's not one of us it's not one of us that's a witch it's the outsider it's the people

00:11:41.400 that are new to town so who are people that are new to the congregation somebody's sitting there

00:11:46.520 going well i'm new but i'm obviously not a witch and we know who you are and we've we know that

00:11:51.740 you're in my wife's bible class and it's the wife's ladies bibles class it's like well kel

00:11:57.160 surprise the people that are witches are for some reason are women and what really worries me about

00:12:02.940 it is he's just doing this for clickbait oh god so much that's what it's about so much he knows

00:12:09.920 exactly what he's doing and it's so irresponsible you could almost sort of not even remotely

00:12:15.140 forgive him but moving towards that as you know somebody that's a good and moral person

00:12:18.960 you can almost do that if he was genuine and honest and sincere about it and he genuinely

00:12:24.380 feared that it still wouldn't be acceptable but for him to it just seems so clear that he's cynically

00:12:29.640 manipulating that audience who presumably are giving him money like he's presumably making

00:12:34.320 money the more people that know there's a show to come and see as it ever was the more people

00:12:39.540 that are going to come along and put money in the plate and I'm sure these days it's not just like

00:12:43.620 putting a couple of dollars in I'm sure it's much bigger I bet he lives in a McMansion you know I

00:12:48.780 I bet he does. I bet he drives a really big car like a Lexus or something like that.

00:12:53.540 You know what I mean? It just fills me with absolute horror.

00:12:56.540 What I think is really scary when you watch it is the crowd reaction to him.

00:13:02.980 The fact that they're feeding on it. The fact that there's whoops and hollers.

00:13:07.300 And he's talking about driving the witches out.

00:13:10.140 You know, not using those exact words, but the language is not gentle.

00:13:14.860 the language is we're going to find you you'd better get out before we find who you are and

00:13:20.680 i'm like see when you watch this remember what he's doing is not talking about witches he is

00:13:26.460 talking about women he is manufacturing the idea that there are witches in the community

00:13:31.980 that does a number of things it makes everyone ask who is the witch who is it it makes people

00:13:38.860 question women and women's motives for doing things and all of a sudden everyone's a suspect

00:13:44.420 it's terrifying and I'm not going to link we're not going to link to anything that he's got because

00:13:50.180 I don't want to encourage it's the most obvious psychological manipulation as well it's the most

00:13:56.660 obvious divide and conquer and it shores up his power so tremendously that he he is the one that

00:14:03.440 can see who is a witch he is the one that can deal with the threat of the witch you know so

00:14:07.540 it puts people in this state of fear but it's almost like it's so performative it's like it's

00:14:13.640 like watching a film you know it's like a really horrible stand-up it's so incredibly performative

00:14:19.460 and i suppose that's always been the case you know it's oratory that's the way that it works

00:14:23.160 but it's just so grotesque it's dangerous theater that's what it is and and if people

00:14:29.540 if anything has been taught to us in the past few years perhaps you know past four or five six years

00:14:36.260 or whatever is that ideas can seem ludicrous and can absolutely take hold until vast swathes of

00:14:44.540 the population believe things that two years ago three years ago we wouldn't have believed and

00:14:50.300 that's what I really fear about this we know that places in the world that witchcraft accusations

00:14:54.940 are on the rise pandemic related and I'm just really really scared that this takes hold again

00:15:01.820 because if we think it can't take hold in the modern day we're completely wrong what happened 0.98

00:15:07.120 to people hundreds of years ago wasn't because the people were stupid it was because they had 0.97

00:15:12.200 a belief system and if our belief system changes to a belief system that witches are amongst us 0.96

00:15:17.720 then we're going back several hundred years and particularly for women that's a really really

00:15:23.160 dangerous thing to happen yeah it's interesting because on the occasions where teachers have got

00:15:29.800 in touch with us particularly via twitter to say oh i did this exercise in class today or somebody

00:15:35.280 tells us about an exercise that they know somebody's done where they give out that that thing

00:15:39.740 where they give all the kids a slip of paper and it says whether they're a witch or not a witch and

00:15:44.000 then the kids have to work out who the witch is and i think part of that is that you don't actually

00:15:47.900 name anybody as a witch it's that everybody suspects everybody else it's just such an obvious

00:15:53.940 sort of play to do to manipulate your congregation or your community it's horrifying well that is why

00:16:01.020 this campaign is still relevant so that's you know if you're talking to somebody and somebody

00:16:05.140 says to you well what's the point of this it was hundreds of years ago that's the point just look

00:16:08.360 at that that's the point and this isn't a country that's tremendously different to to the UK to

00:16:13.720 Scotland these are people that technically speak the same language as us and have in some ways

00:16:18.640 quite similar ways of looking at things so yeah horrifying horrifying anyway change of topic

00:16:25.740 change of topic this time instead of being cross we are happy and we're thankful aren't we claire

00:16:31.620 we are thankful and happy um what happened the other day i was talking to a pal and he said

00:16:37.520 something about our wikipedia entry for witches of scotland and i said we don't have a wikipedia

00:16:43.380 entry? And she said, yeah, yeah, you do. And I was like, OK, Google Wikipedia entry. And there we

00:16:49.760 found that brilliant work had been done. And through my very, very basic IT skills, I was

00:16:56.060 able to track down the person that had done that work. And we just want to give grateful thanks to

00:17:01.200 Dr. Melissa Higton, who, unbeknownst to us, set up a Wikipedia page for Witches of Scotland.

00:17:08.460 And it's really great because it's a resource where there are lots of useful links to

00:17:13.020 articles about the campaign and things that we've said. So we're really grateful to Dr Melissa

00:17:18.700 Higton. She is Assistant Principal and Director of Learning, Teaching and Web Services at the

00:17:25.000 University of Edinburgh. She's got a particular interest in equality, diversity and inclusion

00:17:30.860 and has recently achieved a professional doctorate based on the work she has done

00:17:34.940 leading organisational development projects exploring the balance digital leaders must

00:17:40.220 achieve when they champion change on multiple fronts and her work has won several awards so

00:17:46.620 thanks very much for doing that she did it off her own back we don't know her and she went away

00:17:51.560 and did this and it was really really great and we're so grateful to her excitingly we saw on

00:17:56.620 twitter that she tweeted just the other day that university of edinburgh is looking for

00:18:00.660 undergraduate students for a scottish witchcraft data visualization intern so they're looking for

00:18:08.580 undergraduate students maybe I think it's a three-month course or something like that for

00:18:13.200 over the holidays to do work in that area so interestingly the University of Edinburgh data

00:18:19.580 visualization are doing more things in relation to Scottish witchcraft so thanks very much Melissa

00:18:25.940 it's really good of you to have done that work for us. It's fantastic because when we're talking

00:18:30.700 about how important representation is it is important obviously we know that people have

00:18:35.500 been doing work on this for for a number of years but making sure that women are represented on

00:18:40.260 wikipedia because it is the first stop for many people when they're looking into a subject so

00:18:44.640 it's useful i think and really necessary to have women and their work listed on there accurately

00:18:50.760 so it's really cool and it's really exciting having a wikipedia page yeah so going on here

00:18:57.260 to our next point which is about the idea of remembering the women who were not witches they

00:19:03.280 were just women who are we going to talk about this week Claire? Well what I did this week was

00:19:08.760 I picked up on one of the questions that we were asked by the parliamentarians in the committee

00:19:14.440 meeting asking us about witches of Scotland and we were asked to give evidence what sort of things

00:19:20.260 could get you accused of witchcraft so I thought I'd just take three separate examples and show

00:19:25.580 the different very ordinary different type of things that could get you accused of witchcraft

00:19:31.540 so the first of those was an example i gave to the parliament and this is a case quite a late

00:19:38.820 case because it's 1700 of a woman called margaret alexander and her crime that got her accused of

00:19:46.640 witchcraft very sadly was begging the survey of scottish witchcraft which where we get all this

00:19:52.780 information always shout out to survey of scottish witchcraft online says that margaret alexander 0.89

00:19:58.700 seems to have been a troublesome woman that's a wee bit like a quarrelsome dame asking for charity 1.00

00:20:05.160 and doing lots of cursing and offensive gestures lots of muttering after refused charity so she's 1.00

00:20:13.440 obviously a poor destitute woman who needs charity and help to survive she's going to ask people for 0.98

00:20:20.420 that charity and when they can't give it she's muttering and it's seeing that she's also given 0.91

00:20:26.640 offensive gestures. It's said that she would go begging to people's homes and also she would go

00:20:31.940 begging at the Abbey in Paisley. She was denounced by two different people. She was denounced by

00:20:37.940 Margaret Laird and Margaret Murdoch. Both people claimed to be tormented by witches. Laird and 0.99

00:20:45.340 Murdoch denounced a number of people and said that they were witches whilst they were having

00:20:49.320 fits. Most of the witness testimony was given in Paisley. Laird gave her evidence on the 19th and

00:20:55.460 21st of April 1699 and Murda gave her testimony on the 22nd of April 1699 in Glasgow. Also testimony

00:21:04.760 came from other people who witnessed the fits of Laird and also denunciations. Unfortunately we

00:21:12.140 don't know the outcome of what happened to Margaret Alexander. Around about that time it appears that

00:21:18.900 A number of cases called in court in Glasgow and were simply dismissed in 1700.

00:21:26.140 And I'm very much hoping that Margaret Alexander's case was one of them.

00:21:31.640 Zoe, what about the next person?

00:21:33.820 So that leads us on to Jonnet Burt.

00:21:36.240 And this is described as being a neighbour dispute.

00:21:39.080 And that's one of the things that we said as well,

00:21:41.240 is that people could just fall out with the people in their town or their village or their street or whatever.

00:21:45.080 and she was accused after falling out and having what's described as a grudge towards her neighbor

00:21:52.120 and she was accused on the 23rd of July 1649 so a little bit earlier 10 years before

00:21:58.180 and the end of her court date was the 23rd of November 1649 so a group including Bert were

00:22:06.380 investigated by the Kirk session another two were identified by the witch pricker but there are a few

00:22:11.880 details about it and in this case the witch pricker was called Thomas Crawford. He was an

00:22:16.380 elder in the parish and the survey says that he was involved in six other recorded cases as a

00:22:21.120 witch pricker. She was accused, John at birth, of having made a child ill after a dispute and 0.67

00:22:26.040 requested to restore the child's health by its mother. She was searched and the witch's mark

00:22:31.020 seems to have been found but again we don't know what happened after her trial. So the trial took

00:22:36.260 four months but we don't know what the end result was. The final person today that we're going to

00:22:42.860 speak about is William McGilvery and he was involved in what they call a property accusation

00:22:49.560 i.e the reason behind the accusation of witchcraft was something to do with money or someone benefited

00:22:56.860 by accusing someone of witchcraft and of William McGilvery it said that he was part of a large

00:23:02.600 group of what was described as known witches to Lady Foulis and it was said that she had a supposed

00:23:10.240 plot to destroy members of her family and he was one of the people that worked for Lady Foulis.

00:23:16.520 What's said in the Survey of Scottish Witchcraft is this is a very standard type of early case

00:23:21.060 where accusations of witchcraft were used to alter inheritance of land, titles and property.

00:23:27.960 it's not recorded what happened to him in his own papers but it said that he's mentioned in

00:23:35.160 another trial and in the other trial it said that William McGillivray had been burnt so we assume

00:23:40.860 that he was convicted strangled and then weren't to get rid of his ashes so we remember today

00:23:48.400 three people who were not witches who were just people Margaret Alexander, John at Burt and William

00:23:56.460 mcgillivary so today's guest well it's guests in actual fact today isn't it clear we've got

00:24:09.840 two people on today and that's because of things that are just recently happened and are just about

00:24:15.260 to happen so our first guest today is actually it's quite exciting we managed to arrange a little

00:24:22.360 chat with Katerina Ubeda who is from Catalonia and she's here to talk to us about their successful

00:24:30.020 campaign in Catalonia as a way forward for us. Thank you so much Katerina for joining us today

00:24:40.960 on the podcast. We're really excited to talk to you about your campaign because we're with each

00:24:46.640 other's opposite numbers so it's nice to know how somebody else's campaign is progressing and

00:24:51.420 because you've been successful maybe we can get some top tips from you so we've got a bunch of

00:24:56.340 questions and the first thing I'd like to ask you is why did you start the campaign? We thought it

00:25:02.080 was necessary to repair the memory of all those women accused and executed for witchcraft in

00:25:08.280 Catalonia and because we believe that witch hunt is a clear example of the attacks and discrimination

00:25:13.480 that women have been subjected to throughout history. That's why we launched the campaign

00:25:18.140 They weren't witches, they were women, that was inspired by initiatives like yours,

00:25:23.900 a campaign that wanted to dignify and vindicate the memory of those women who were tortured and put to death.

00:25:29.940 And what did you have as your aims at the beginning?

00:25:33.200 We wanted to reach as many people as possible.

00:25:36.020 On the one hand, we wanted to spread the historical research conducted by Pau Castell

00:25:40.360 that was published in our magazine and on our website.

00:25:44.140 And on the other hand, we also wanted to spread the historical reparation campaign and to get the support of the local councils and of the parliament.

00:25:52.400 And you mentioned there the parliament. How did you bring your petition to them?

00:25:56.820 We spoke to a member of the parliament of Catalonia.

00:25:59.740 And after several months, the motion was brought by the governing parties, Esquerra Republicana and Jules per Catalunya, along with Far Left Group and Anti-Austerity and Comun Podem.

00:26:12.000 You started it with a petition, didn't you? Was it a petition that you ran through the magazine?

00:26:18.600 It was a manifesto that we published on our website, and we asked people to sign it.

00:26:25.000 We collected nearly 13,000 signatures, 12,672 signatures among anonymous people and institutions,

00:26:35.280 including nearly 80 councils and associations from various fields,

00:26:40.740 not only women, but press, culture, history.

00:26:44.380 And besides that, 137 historians had also signed the manifesto.

00:26:50.020 Parliament approved the proposal on 26 January with 114 votes in favour

00:26:55.800 from pro-independence and left-wing groups.

00:26:58.880 We had 14 votes against and six abstentions.

00:27:02.740 That was an overwhelming majority

00:27:05.900 That means 84% of MPs

00:27:08.720 84%, around 84-85% is the percentage of women that were killed as witches in Scotland

00:27:14.980 That's a recurring percentage for us, we find

00:27:18.260 Because also 85% of our listeners are women to this podcast

00:27:22.580 So that's funny that that's around the same amount

00:27:25.200 Did you have the support as well as the politicians?

00:27:28.160 Was there general public support for the campaign?

00:27:31.160 We did have it, but not just now. We had the support of the general public from the very day we launched the campaign in March last year.

00:27:39.920 The reaction on the social networks was immediate. Tweets joining and undergoing the campaign, people searching for the women condemned in their towns, in the digital atlas of the witch hunt, personalities making campaign support videos.

00:27:53.140 We were on the media. Now, after the revolution, we have been again on the media, but not only in Catalonia and Spain, also in European media like The Guardian, BBC, Le Mans, The Irish Times, New York Globe, France 24. Amazing.

00:28:09.280 And the magazine issue on witchcraft has been sold out even in our online store. There are no copies left.

00:28:15.260 we got sent copies that was very very kind of you to send us across copies of it and it's such

00:28:21.340 a beautiful magazine if anyone thank you is it still in print at all can people get it if they

00:28:26.960 order it from you not now oh not now there are no copies left not even on the online store

00:28:33.900 there is one one more thing that tells you the importance of the initiative on january 24th we

00:28:40.600 organized a closing ceremony of the campaign in which we presented a docufiction on which hand

00:28:46.900 produced by us, by Sapiens, and the public television of Catalonia, TV3, which was attended

00:28:52.680 by the president, Pere Aragonés. Wow. Wow. I heard that he commented on the TV show too.

00:29:00.800 He described witchcraft as, I think, institutionalized femicide. Is that right? 0.73

00:29:05.240 Yes, yes, that's right. The decoficient is titled Bruises La Gran Mentida, which in English is witches, the big lie.

00:29:13.100 And it has been directed by Joanna Pardos. You can watch it on TV3's website.

00:29:18.160 Did you find that there was any criticism at all of the campaign?

00:29:21.900 Not really. If there was any, it was trivial, minimum.

00:29:26.720 There has only been some criticism from some politicians, criticizing the resolution of the parliament.

00:29:32.280 But it is anecdotal. His argument is that parliamentary debate should be about problems affecting the citizenry, real and current problems, not issues of the past.

00:29:43.480 But as I say, it's trivial.

00:29:45.980 Yeah, I think if people don't understand that these are still modern day issues, if people don't understand that, I don't know how we can help them.

00:29:54.380 I mean, it's so relevant to modern day issues for women that it flags up, as you said at the start, Katerina,

00:30:01.220 it flags up that this is about the history of women and the treatment of women.

00:30:05.460 And it's as important for the modern day as it ever could be. 0.64

00:30:09.180 Yes, this is just another example of how women have been treated and are still treated. 0.68

00:30:16.280 But as I said, it's minimal. Only maybe two, three politicians just saying this.

00:30:22.860 when did parliament pass the resolution then last january 26 literally just so so recently it's

00:30:29.380 amazing isn't it and you're yes you seem to have really just got straight out and got the support

00:30:35.000 and got the job done really quickly well do you think one year is really quickly yeah i think so

00:30:40.480 yeah we're on two years and it's still good time yeah so one year seems tremendously quick to me

00:30:48.460 what has happened now legally what's the legal effect of the resolution

00:30:52.600 The text aims to promote academic studies with gender perspective and include them in the academic curriculum.

00:31:01.920 And the proposal also calls for outreach actions, like to raise awareness of this episode from history and its causes.

00:31:09.580 Local councils in Catalonia are asked to revise the street names and include the names of women convicted of witchcraft.

00:31:16.280 But I wanted to say these two things had already been happening in some cities and villages since we launched the campaign.

00:31:24.400 For instance, two children's playgrounds in the Catalan village of Palau Solita and Plegamans have been named in honour of condemned witches.

00:31:32.060 Wow, that's amazing. A playground as well. That's fantastic. That's really cool.

00:31:38.140 I love that. I love the idea that when children get that bit older and grow up, they can find out the name of why their playground was called that and remember these women.

00:31:48.660 It's absolutely amazing.

00:31:50.080 Now, you said you had a closing ceremony and Zoe, we must write that down. Closing ceremony. We must write that down.

00:31:56.020 Good idea.

00:31:56.860 That's a good idea.

00:31:58.340 What now for the campaign? Is there any more to do?

00:32:01.700 We can always do more. We will still participate in acts of reparation, in debates.

00:32:07.080 We have already been asked to attend several presentations of Witches the Big Lie and Pau is being invited to numerous talks.

00:32:15.900 Well, we really look forward to speaking to Pau Castell, Professor Pau Castell, and talking about his work,

00:32:22.540 because I understand he contacted you and said, I have 10 years of research on the witch hunts and was able to help the campaign by giving you that information.

00:32:35.480 Yes, yes.

00:32:36.860 And he's a star now and he appears on the docu-fiction as well.

00:32:41.860 I think that to have this docu-fiction on TV3, it's something big.

00:32:47.920 The president attended the act and then I think that the parliament said,

00:32:53.080 OK, that's the time to do it.

00:32:54.720 And it was just great.

00:32:55.860 I can see.

00:32:56.400 So the whole country has the opportunity to watch the television show.

00:33:01.140 The president is there and parliament felt it was the right time.

00:33:04.660 and you have the resolution passed we were so delighted here we were tweeting we were sharing

00:33:11.180 there were articles all over the world we could not be more delighted for you and we hope that

00:33:18.240 you'll be supporting us if we manage to to get our legislation passed as well of course we'll do it

00:33:24.900 well zoe and i are very very keen to come to barcelona as part of scotland i love barcelona

00:33:31.560 I've been twice and I loved it.

00:33:33.220 It was years ago, but I'd love to come back.

00:33:34.980 So Claire and I are going to definitely come back

00:33:36.500 and celebrate your amazing campaign.

00:33:39.560 Yeah, you'll be welcome.

00:33:41.280 Where do you live?

00:33:42.520 In Dundee.

00:33:43.620 Yeah, I live near Dundee.

00:33:44.380 Dundee, okay.

00:33:45.300 Yeah, yeah.

00:33:46.360 Okay.

00:33:47.120 So you say for you one year is nothing

00:33:49.620 because when we talk with this member, with this MP,

00:33:53.440 we were always asking and saying,

00:33:55.880 oh, they are not answering.

00:33:57.520 They say nothing.

00:33:58.620 They will forget this.

00:33:59.900 And we thought one year was a lot.

00:34:04.040 Yeah.

00:34:04.480 Not for us.

00:34:05.420 Maybe Zoe and I are just very, very slow.

00:34:07.780 There's that possibility.

00:34:09.600 It's not us, it's Parliament.

00:34:11.840 We were ready.

00:34:13.460 We could have handed the stuff in on the Monday

00:34:16.100 and we could have had it sorted by the Friday.

00:34:18.020 It's just the Parliament.

00:34:20.340 It's not us.

00:34:21.000 Yes.

00:34:22.240 No, also though, in Scotland,

00:34:24.380 we knew so little about our history.

00:34:26.860 We're not taught about our history in Scotland.

00:34:29.340 the history of women in Scotland so it took a long time for us to engage the public in the story

00:34:37.040 of the people killed as witches and Zoe and I have been doing interviews we do press we've been

00:34:44.620 talking to people we've been doing podcasts we've been speaking to experts you know trying to get

00:34:51.700 the public to engage we didn't have unfortunately as much as we would love it we didn't have a

00:34:56.300 magazine to be able to to tell people i think that's the difference because we are the leading

00:35:02.320 history magazine in catalonia and besides history we are the leading magazine in catalonia you see

00:35:09.940 and this is a great platform you do a campaign like the one we did we have a slightly smaller

00:35:15.940 platform of just the two of us on twitter your job is great well and if we take into account

00:35:25.940 that this is not your job

00:35:27.840 because this is my job.

00:35:29.380 This is Pau Castel's job as well.

00:35:31.920 See, my job is I work in the magazine,

00:35:34.460 so I'm not doing spare hours to do this.

00:35:38.100 But you do.

00:35:39.180 Yeah, we do.

00:35:40.080 It's something we feel strongly about

00:35:41.640 and that's why we do it.

00:35:43.480 But we are looking forward to getting it done

00:35:45.360 and having a closing ceremony ourselves.

00:35:47.780 Oh, yes, that would be nice.

00:35:49.040 That would be so nice.

00:35:51.700 That would be lovely.

00:35:53.360 We thought we would get more support

00:35:55.460 from local councils but we didn't and we started a campaign in social media just asking them saying

00:36:03.600 um dandy in in your town there were five women executed for the crime of witchcraft please sign

00:36:12.560 the petition but they didn't answer i guess because they need to to debate it okay it's not

00:36:19.120 like the mayor signs the petition they need to bring the petition and debate it in the council

00:36:25.900 ah so we take more time there might be different views on it but in a sense it doesn't matter

00:36:31.880 because you got you got to where you needed to be and with overwhelming support i mean 80 percent

00:36:39.060 no now it doesn't matter and now we see that it doesn't matter we've had great support from

00:36:44.640 politicians so far and Natalie Dawn is the MSP who's bringing the private bill private legislation

00:36:51.700 so now part of our work is letting politicians know about the campaign and let them understand

00:36:59.800 the concept behind it because if you just hear the phrase we want to pardon witches

00:37:05.220 people think what is that a joke but when they understand when they hear the true story of what

00:37:12.300 happen to people then everyone we've spoken to is in agreement that something should happen so

00:37:19.500 keep your fingers crossed for us on international women's day this year we hopefully will hear from

00:37:26.020 the scottish government and we'll just keep going with the legislation do stay in contact

00:37:31.040 and very much hopefully you'll be able to celebrate with us one day soon

00:37:34.640 now our second guest today is somebody who's already been with us before and it is the artist

00:37:47.960 former lawyer laura graham who is doing a fantastic like breathtaking idea on the very

00:37:56.700 very early early early early morning of international women's day which claire and i

00:38:03.580 are definitely definitely going to get up for and we're going to need to have a nap probably

00:38:07.500 afterwards but it's half past five in the morning but Laura's going to give us full details now so

00:38:12.460 welcome to the podcast again Laura Graham. We are very very happy to have back on a guest that we

00:38:25.960 had in episode 40 and that is the artist Laura Graham who's doing something really incredibly

00:38:32.400 special on International Women's Day and we wanted to get Laura on so that Laura could describe

00:38:38.100 what's happening so that people can get involved in it so without any further ado Laura thank you

00:38:42.680 for coming back and hello again. Hi it's great to be back yeah after the podcast I'd expressed on

00:38:50.500 the podcast that I'd love to have restaged this artwork in Edinburgh in the place really where

00:38:57.180 for the Scottish people it all began you know with Holyrood House and King James VI, James

00:39:02.240 the first in his interrogation of at the time Agnes Sampson and I was approached by a fire

00:39:07.080 station creative in Dunfermline a fantastic gallery that has really basically come out

00:39:12.540 the ashes of the fire station there and just puts on amazing performances artists coffee and various

00:39:19.280 other things Ian Moore contacted me anyway and he said he'd be interested in starting again or you

00:39:25.540 know just doing another performance and then the possibility of International Women's Day came up

00:39:30.520 and I applied to the City of Edinburgh Council for a licence.

00:39:34.020 So on the morning at dawn on International Women's Day

00:39:37.840 on Carlton Hill, I'll restage this event,

00:39:41.740 this live art event.

00:39:43.240 It's called Soul Murder 5

00:39:45.360 after the other soul murders that have taken place.

00:39:49.120 And it's called The Exoneration of Agnes Sampson. 0.52

00:39:52.120 I'm restaging the burning of the figure.

00:39:54.460 She's covered in linen and wax.

00:39:56.420 She stands, I mean, she's about six foot four, actually. 0.99

00:39:59.280 She's a big lady. 1.00

00:40:00.520 and um around her to keep the public back if anybody comes at that time in the morning i have

00:40:07.220 to be realistic here i have thousands of candles that are lying on their sides and i'm calling

00:40:14.600 these soul candles of the people who in the past have been accused tortured accused um strangled

00:40:22.760 and burned for witchcraft in scotland so when people see the numbers of these candles on the

00:40:28.400 ground you get an idea of how many people we're talking about it really is horrifying we'd

00:40:34.400 mentioned in last week's podcast this would you call it an effigy i mean is that what it is it's

00:40:40.240 made of iron and wax and material what would you call her i wouldn't call her an effigy because

00:40:46.880 effigies tend to represent living people and they're used actually in activities to possibly 0.78

00:40:53.580 cause harm, but sometimes to heal. But that's not the intention here. The intention is a

00:40:58.780 transformational fire. Commonly, these situations and Agnes Samson and the other people accused in

00:41:05.300 the North Berwick Witch Trials were all burned round about lunchtime or early afternoon to get

00:41:10.180 as many people as possible to attend, to frighten the society. And the reason this is at dawn is

00:41:15.960 as a transformation, a fire of transformation to just reimagine this whole situation and own it for

00:41:22.720 for women and for women contemporary women of today and maybe for the Scottish psych because

00:41:29.440 I grew up in Scotland knowing all about this and at some level I was terrified by it maybe you two

00:41:35.720 are the same I want to sort of grab it back a wee bit and say this is a new time a new consciousness

00:41:41.740 well we're certainly hoping it is a new time and I have seen photographs of this piece of artwork

00:41:49.960 that you've staged before and it's really powerful and in fact I think you've actually

00:41:54.240 gone so far as to warn people about what it is and what they will see. Well it is a life-size

00:42:00.660 figure and it's really quite it can be quite intimidating and it could be quite upsetting.

00:42:07.340 I do think it's really important that people understand that they are going to see what will

00:42:11.720 look like a figure burning. Not like a Guy Fawkes figure, not sitting on top of a bonfire wee slumped

00:42:17.460 thing. This is a much stronger image than that. And it's also very heavily packed so that it's

00:42:23.820 going to burn for some time. People really need to be aware of the fact that you can be quite upset

00:42:27.880 by it. I personally have found it quite hard at points when I've done this. This is not an

00:42:33.520 entertainment. This is much, much more than that. This is a memorial. And it's bringing awareness

00:42:39.060 and consciousness to something that we have to uncover. I believe we have to uncover it to move

00:42:44.000 on as a society and I'm so thankful to you two for actually having the courage to do this

00:42:48.720 it's not an easy process and it can bring up an awful lot on other people. When we started this

00:42:54.660 process we didn't think two years on we would still be so busy and we're grateful for it but

00:43:01.500 it's certainly quite a lot and we're really looking forward to the focus of International

00:43:05.020 Women's Day. I don't think as well we really had a notion of what's going on in the modern day

00:43:11.640 with this issue so I think this is particularly affecting because it's not only commemorating

00:43:17.240 what happened and talking about what happened it's it really is a signal about what is going on

00:43:22.240 in various places that's really quite terrifying so I think you know you're right to sort of

00:43:28.160 forewarn people that it's moving and very very powerful because like you're saying it's not a

00:43:32.980 spectacle it's a very serious serious thing it's a very serious thing and sadly and reprehensibly

00:43:40.040 people are dying this way at the moment in different parts of the world and we really

00:43:45.680 have to be aware of that this is not just an art event it's more than that um but it is still art

00:43:51.720 it's so people can be assured of that and they can be relaxed into it but it's uh it's challenging

00:43:57.460 yeah and dawn is an early time day to get up there and i are working up to it we can't wait

00:44:05.120 though to come and see it because we think it'll be absolutely amazing and also we're really hopeful

00:44:08.600 that a lot of people will come to it and how do people access it do they need to book a place do

00:44:14.800 they just turn up there is an event bright site that has been set up not so much for people to

00:44:21.100 pay this is not a paid event this is an open event to the public Calden Hill is opened and it remains

00:44:26.620 open we are planning on having people at the bottom of Calden Hill and the Blenheim Place site

00:44:32.340 at 5 30 in the morning and for people to meet there and then we'll all walk up together and

00:44:37.660 because of the nature of this and because fire is involved we have to be very careful with health

00:44:41.920 and safety and the nature of the art piece means that these candles will be lying on their side

00:44:47.260 around the art piece in a large circle so nobody will be able to come close I mean the numbers of

00:44:52.740 candles that are lying down mean that I need a 19 meter across space by this figure to even get

00:44:58.740 these candles round it's a huge number of people who were prosecuted over these two three hundred

00:45:04.100 years so we will then have people just stand around the edge back from the fire the event

00:45:10.820 will take place over a period of about maybe 60 minutes fire burns very fast it's a wood fire

00:45:16.600 then you see the charred remains of the metal it's quite a statement so I hope people are

00:45:22.200 interested enough to come well we're really grateful and I think there's also a lot of

00:45:26.840 people I'm sure that will have great interest but just won't be able to get there I actually saw

00:45:31.240 a couple of people one of the people i think has already been on the show and some people saying

00:45:35.860 we'd love to go but public transport won't allow us to get there that early so there are practical

00:45:41.180 considerations that mean that people won't be able to see but are we going to be able to watch

00:45:46.640 online if we can't come at some point in the future are you going to record this yeah i have

00:45:52.880 got a drone operator to just get images from just above where we are and two cameras will be set up

00:46:00.120 to film the figure and in June in Fire Station Creative there will be an exhibition of this work

00:46:07.020 in completeness so the figure will be there the candles and the film that will be made from it

00:46:12.120 will be there so people will be able to see this and have a coffee at the same time

00:46:17.180 I have been to the Fire Station it's great it's really great so if you've not been there before

00:46:23.080 and you just wouldn't really expect it maybe in Dunferblain in the way that it is so it's a really

00:46:27.180 great place to go so people can visit that in in the future because we often get asked by people

00:46:31.860 you know where can i travel in scotland to go and go in places that are linked in some way to the

00:46:37.340 witch trials so hopefully people are in in the area at that time they can come along and see

00:46:41.340 and we'll keep people up to date with that through the podcast and through our social media it's been

00:46:45.140 brilliant talking to you laura and i really cannot wait to see what happens that day i think it's

00:46:50.360 going to be really moving and amazing thank you so much thank you for asking me back on i really

00:46:55.380 appreciate this thanks so much for joining us for another episode of the witches of scotland

00:47:08.860 podcast we've got some really exciting stuff coming up so please do keep in touch with us

00:47:13.980 on social media you're going to be sick of the sight of us because there are several things

00:47:18.960 that are getting recorded over the next wee while that you're going to see which we can't really

00:47:22.440 talk about because it'll you'll see right you'll understand when you see them i could use some of

00:47:27.300 my wigs and like change my appearance for each one that might you know i'm maybe like is that

00:47:31.640 her is that not her i'm enjoying the very short hair i think it's cool i like it long hair wigs

00:47:37.980 i've got blonde haired wigs i've got dark wig but then people will get also confused and they'll

00:47:42.540 think who is who's that other person pooping who's i really hope they don't think who's that

00:47:49.560 other pooping i'm not trying to project pooping no but people will get confused and they'll think

00:47:56.820 who's that other person with zoe this this revolving glamorous blonde cast coming into

00:48:03.440 different things no i think stick with your hair like that it looks marvelous but we we're on

00:48:08.880 various things so the best way to keep up to date with what's happening and the progress of the

00:48:13.200 campaign and so on is definitely to get in touch with us on our social media so we are on as ever

00:48:19.400 we're on instagram well clear it's clear it does instagram we're on facebook where we've got a page

00:48:25.240 it's not really so much interactive but it's definitely you can message us a wee bit on there

00:48:29.300 but the best place to talk to us is on twitter because we're on there far more than they and we

00:48:36.340 talk to lots of people on twitter so that's really useful i would mention this point as well our poor

00:48:41.320 sainted sound engineer david who is now have to do mental maths 48 episodes passed what he foolishly

00:48:48.800 suggested he do many many moons ago he has got because we obviously don't pay him we make no

00:48:55.560 money from this it's all it's all for gratis on top of our actual day jobs so we don't have any

00:49:01.540 money to pay david unfortunately but we do have the ko-fi coffee so if you're enjoying what you're

00:49:07.640 listening to please buy david a coffee or and and or and stroke or we have our merchandise of which

00:49:14.920 i'm using just now i always have my witches of scotland mug you can't see that i've just lifted

00:49:19.400 up to the camera just to show clear noise so he makes some kind of like hooves

00:49:23.220 thereby making several people that have the same issue that i have with the sound of people eating

00:49:29.180 and drinking sick into their into their podcast time anyway we've got mugs t-shirts hoodies

00:49:36.440 blankety blank checkbook and pens we don't have that fondue set totally toy do you know i naturally

00:49:43.960 have got a fondue set which I've never used it was a Lidl in the middle purchase likes of a fondue

00:49:49.880 yeah melty cheese I do have a fondue set do you use it no I got it I found it in a charity shop

00:49:56.780 and it's a Le Creuset one in the charity shop in Stockbridge in Edinburgh where else yeah that's

00:50:01.860 quite fancy yeah and I found it and we had one fondue night and then it was all so fiddly and

00:50:09.280 tricky it's just sat there i don't have like a le crusade type that type of one i've got one that's

00:50:14.920 a reclette it's like the little shovels and you're meant to like cook meat in them if you want meat

00:50:19.860 or like veggie things or the cheese i've never actually used it though let's have a fondue night

00:50:24.980 let's do it let's cook things in tiny shovels on a hot plate and drink what could go wrong

00:50:32.000 nothing i actually want cheese burnt my lip that's exactly what could go wrong in those

00:50:38.100 circumstances and also the little stick things are pretty pointy so god we have to pace ourselves

00:50:44.340 we'd have to pace the snowballs that night anyway anywho so thank you for listening again today

00:50:51.060 is there anything else we need to mention at this juncture claire no we usually talk about how

00:50:55.820 you're doing training you're yeah i know i don't want to get into you know giving people too much

00:51:02.080 information because as i mentioned before it's governmental and we're on to quite some quite

00:51:06.900 serious issues of national security now with my with my um stables yeah i think it's possible

00:51:13.900 it's probably best that you just like literally don't say anything more about raccoons yeah i'll

00:51:19.060 just but do you know what though oh there's a lot of crows around isn't there well here we go

00:51:24.820 but there are though like are there more than there used to be or am i just noticing them more

00:51:29.660 they're just is it like an end of days vibe no they're just flocking around you because they

00:51:34.180 sense your natural training that's going on i mean don't you think those ravens say to other

00:51:39.520 ravens yeah what's going on that's what's happening that it's getting around town literally birds of

00:51:45.160 a feather yeah yeah they are walking together around you god above honestly what has become

00:51:53.040 of us claire you're going to need the raccoons for protection quite soon how tall are raccoons

00:51:58.420 tiny well i mean really tiny like how small like as small as like um a chicken i mean first of all

00:52:05.380 i'm wondering why you're asking me that given you're training them that's it's oh yeah oh

00:52:10.360 because because i'll tell you cannot wait they're very very shy so i train them in a darkened room

00:52:17.960 i hadn't actually mentioned that before yeah they're not very shy those aren't eye masks

00:52:23.360 it's like their fur markings

00:52:25.920 God what is wrong with me

00:52:28.020 do you think Edinburgh Zoo's got any raccoons

00:52:29.960 I don't know but if you go there definitely

00:52:32.060 will be ones because they'll be following you

00:52:33.860 along with the train of birds

00:52:35.300 the harbingers of doom

00:52:36.760 you wait 20 years from now Scotland will be overrun

00:52:40.000 with raccoons and it'll all be on my fault

00:52:41.780 and that'll be the end of days they'll have been brought by the raccoons

00:52:44.320 anyway

00:52:45.000 we digress as pair

00:52:47.400 so thank you so much for joining us

00:52:49.880 for this podcast and if you're still

00:52:51.760 listening at this point in the nonsense

00:52:53.480 good on you. Well done

00:52:55.740 Bye! Bye!

00:53:00.740 If you'd like to learn 0.99

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Witches of Scotland - February 26, 2022

EPISODE 53 - PARDONING THE WITCHES OF CATALONIA

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