Witches of Scotland - EPISODE 60 - JENNI FAGAN “HEX” RECORDED LIVE AT AYE WRITE, GLASGOW

00:00:00.200 Hi, I'm Clare Mitchell, QC. Welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:05.240 I'm a lawyer who specialises in miscarriage of justice cases,

00:00:08.760 and we're bringing you this podcast because we want to tell you 0.61

00:00:11.580 about the women who were accused, prosecuted, convicted,

00:00:15.800 and ultimately executed as witches in Scotland.

00:00:18.800 I'm Zoe Vendetotsi, and I'm a writer who's always had an interest in the witches,

00:00:23.060 and I feel that this dark mark against Scotland needs a reckoning.

00:00:26.500 The campaign Witches of Scotland wants three things.

00:00:29.600 Firstly, a pardon for all those convicted of witchcraft.

00:00:33.140 Secondly, an apology for all those who were accused as witches.

00:00:37.460 And finally, a national monument in recognition of all those who were affected by this terrible miscarriage of justice.

00:00:44.440 Over the forthcoming weeks, we'll be talking to a whole host of experts about the history and the modern day connections to the witches of Scotland.

00:00:53.780 Hello and welcome to episode 60 of the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:58.260 60 Claire 60 episodes that is by my extremely good mathematical reasoning 10 times 10 times

00:01:07.640 the original six episodes that we had planned and do we show any signs of slowing down Zoe

00:01:13.300 no we do not we have many many many more guests to come and apologies to anybody that we've reached

00:01:19.180 out to on Twitter and said hey would you like to be a guest and you've said yes and then we've not

00:01:22.540 followed up yet it's because we've got quite a long list of people to get through so and they're

00:01:27.320 fantastic there's loads of really great people to speak to and today's episode is no no difference

00:01:32.780 to that it's a fantastic episode today if i do say so myself but we'll come back to that because

00:01:38.000 claire i was just wondering has there anything been happening in the news they'd like to talk

00:01:43.820 about it's as best as we can do we're a very low budget zero budget in fact no minus budget there

00:01:52.720 is very much and very importantly in the news if you're listening to this the public consultation

00:01:59.080 in respect of Natalie Dawn's bill to pardon the witches is now live go to it if you google

00:02:07.360 witches of Scotland and follow us on any of the social media twitter instagram facebook then

00:02:14.560 we've got the links there for you and most of them are pinned so you'll be able to see them

00:02:18.600 and if you don't follow us on social media you can google witches of scotland pardon public

00:02:25.240 consultation natalie dawn any of those sorts of combinations will bring it up so the consultation

00:02:32.220 is you put in your name and then it's just six or seven questions where you can add more information

00:02:39.220 in the boxes if you want but if you really wanted to just click on it and answer the questions you

00:02:44.680 could be done in what a minute two minutes sorry yeah a couple of minutes i would say and then of

00:02:49.440 course like claire's saying you can add if there's if there's particular things that you want to talk

00:02:52.680 more about or you want to have more focus on you can do that it's quite it's really easy to navigate

00:02:57.100 through it it's fine so it's really important though that we get as many people as possible

00:03:02.300 who are you know pro the campaign getting involved with it because it really will show the government

00:03:07.500 that this campaign has got people behind it and that it's worthwhile pursuing absolutely and also

00:03:13.740 when Natalie Dawn tweeted it or retweeted it there were people who weren't interested in the

00:03:19.660 idea of the campaign at all but were just using it as a way to I shall say this as politely as

00:03:26.700 possible exercise their right to free speech see how they managed to keep it exercise their right

00:03:34.600 to free speech to explain what they thought of the politics now it's so important this isn't

00:03:41.020 political. Although Natalie Dawn is bringing it forward, we've had support from Labour,

00:03:46.340 we've had support from the Greens, and we've had support from members of the Conservative Party

00:03:51.240 and the Lib Dems. So although this is being brought on behalf of Natalie Dawn, we have had

00:03:58.320 people come to us from all the parties and express their view. And of course, the view expressed by

00:04:03.840 the Public Petitions Committee as well, which is a cross-party committee. So it's really important

00:04:10.000 that people if you feel strongly about this do go and have their say because there will be those

00:04:15.240 people who have contacted and had their say in the matter because they're expressing their political

00:04:21.740 views on that which are negative to the SNP so please do go and put your name towards that

00:04:30.060 it's only a couple of minutes of your day but it makes a huge difference in the campaign and

00:04:36.380 in our way of recording history couldn't have said it better myself claire i was quite interested

00:04:41.160 to see that those few dissenting voices and this is on twitter so when natalie's office put out that

00:04:47.000 there was going to be the consultation process there were a few people and it was funny because

00:04:51.500 in their profiles on twitter they were mostly people that had a name and then lots of numbers

00:04:56.200 after it and people that use twitter will be familiar with what that can mean but they were

00:05:00.020 they were generally in their um their profiles really really negative particularly about the

00:05:05.740 first minister which I think is really interesting because I always come back to this whether you're

00:05:10.180 for or against or you're for our politics or against them you're for or against independence

00:05:14.400 it's very interesting how many people will will have a go at the person and make very kind of

00:05:20.160 unpleasant misogynistic comments about the person rather than really focusing on other aspects and

00:05:26.740 as I've said so many times before that when you look in twitter in the search bar for which

00:05:31.500 it's frequently the first minister is referred to as that so it's kind of interesting that we

00:05:36.060 haven't in some ways in some sectors of society moved on from some behaviors in the in the dark

00:05:43.660 days of the witch hunts so I just think there's an interesting kind of echo through time there

00:05:48.040 so I would hope that there are enough people that are interested and supportive of the campaign

00:05:52.620 that would make that known through the consultation process. Absolutely and speaking of memorialization

00:05:58.740 through the ages yes we have some other information in the news we do there's been this really

00:06:04.780 interesting I don't know what we would would you call an art sort of project it's not really an art

00:06:10.220 project yes it's all it it's sort of public art public art trail in Perth that's that's recently

00:06:18.460 just been put up and is going to be on until the end of September and it's statues of women where

00:06:25.060 there are stories about them that have been researched by different community groups and

00:06:29.520 then an artist has made these wire sculptures that are up for the you know the couple of months

00:06:35.380 and then they're going to be gathered together in September and then they're going to be put

00:06:39.760 together for when the mod comes to Perth and then everything's going to be translated into Gaelic as

00:06:44.400 well as the English to kind of cover both those things and they're really really interesting we

00:06:48.840 have an episode coming up soon where we're going to talk to the person that's spearheading that

00:06:53.860 and it's really interesting thinking about the way in which we memorialize people particularly

00:06:58.200 women and then people's engagement with these memorials so I think that's going to be fascinating

00:07:02.900 it's definitely worth going to Perth in the meantime to go and check it out and they've got

00:07:07.520 these really nice maps that are available and all the different tourist places and I think hotels

00:07:12.620 and various other places libraries that sort of thing where you can have a wander around Perth

00:07:17.040 City Centre and see the 20 different statues and then I think also there's a QR code link as well

00:07:23.220 so you can you can scan them and then there's more information i think on the website so that's

00:07:28.100 definitely worth going to have a look at they're really stunning actually and we'll put some

00:07:31.840 pictures up on our social media as well so you can see what it is that you're looking at if you

00:07:35.260 can't make it to perth but it's definitely worth a visit now that brings us on to today's episode

00:07:41.040 now as i said at the beginning this is a kind of unusual episode for us because instead of us

00:07:46.320 having a guest talking to us online and then us putting that together we had the pleasure of

00:07:52.900 talking to the writer Jenny Fagan on stage at Glasgow's I Write Literary Festival and so today's

00:08:00.360 episode is the recording of that live event where Jenny talks about her book and then we have some

00:08:06.800 questions and answers from the audience and it was lovely to meet so many people in real life

00:08:11.460 Wasn't it, Claire, that our listeners that we've talked to online?

00:08:14.520 Oh, it was. It was a great opportunity and there was a great buzz about it.

00:08:17.720 It was really fantastic to see so many people and so many of Jenny's fans there.

00:08:24.140 They were really keen to speak to her.

00:08:26.400 Without any further ado, we are delighted to introduce this week's episode,

00:08:30.520 which is talking to the writer and poet Jenny Fagan.

00:08:41.460 hello hi i'm gonna make you do it back to me now hello they're so good and compliant it's great

00:08:53.160 thank you so much for coming along tonight to i write um we're in the final weekend of this

00:08:59.160 fantastic festival of literature and um it gives me great delight delight tonight to talk to our

00:09:06.380 guest as part of what we do. So first of all, my name is Zoe Venditotsi. And I'm Claire

00:09:11.800 Mitchell. And we are the Witches of Scotland. That's how we start the podcast, Jenny. It's

00:09:16.060 a bit naff, but I felt we had to do it. So tonight we're going to be talking to Jenny

00:09:20.880 Fagan, who, of course, we'll all know from all the different areas in which that she's

00:09:25.100 written. But she's written particularly a book here, Hex, that is just so perfect that

00:09:31.100 we just thought this would be a really good opportunity to talk to you. And we're recording

00:09:34.720 very much fingers crossed we're recording this as a podcast but i don't know if anybody here

00:09:40.300 is listening to podcasts you'll know that claire and i are not technically gifted so we're we're

00:09:44.480 really hoping that the bit we're doing will actually work out so that's why we've got our

00:09:47.680 phones out we're not taking messages we are recording and keeping an eye on the time so

00:09:52.900 anyway without any further ado let's welcome to the stage jenny fagan thank you

00:09:59.560 so I think what we're going to do tonight is we're just going to have a chat with you Jenny

00:10:05.400 you're going to do a reading yep then some more chat and then take some questions magic so that's

00:10:10.720 all good so if you think of some questions and then afterwards I believe Jenny you're going to

00:10:14.400 be signing books outside I can do that yep so if you are a bit shy and you don't want to ask a

00:10:20.420 question here but you'll you'll feel very well warm and welcome it'll be fine and you can always

00:10:24.620 talk to Jenny afterwards as well so please do think about what questions you'd like to ask her

00:10:29.160 So, Jenny, do you want to kick off with the reading?

00:10:32.200 Yes, why not?

00:10:33.740 So, I'm reading from Hex,

00:10:37.580 which is my book about the story of,

00:10:42.180 largely about the story of Gilly Duncan,

00:10:44.420 who was executed for the crime of witchcraft

00:10:49.100 on the 4th of December, 1591.

00:10:51.820 And she was a teenage girl

00:10:53.420 who worked for a bailiff called David Setum.

00:10:57.140 and the book is basically a seance held across time

00:11:03.100 between two women, two witches, two women

00:11:05.640 and it's about celebrating the friendship and bonds of these two women

00:11:11.100 so Iris is from the future, 500 years in the future

00:11:15.500 and she goes back because she doesn't want Gilly to be alone in her cell

00:11:20.620 on the last night of her life

00:11:22.220 so this first wee part is Iris

00:11:24.820 and then I'll do you a wee part from Gilly.

00:11:28.460 Chapter one, Iris, Midnight,

00:11:31.820 open invitation sent via seance,

00:11:33.980 1st of August, 2021,

00:11:37.420 to sell on the high street,

00:11:38.840 4th of December, 1591.

00:11:41.460 Elements, null plus air.

00:11:45.120 I was out in the null,

00:11:47.420 in perpetuity, it seemed.

00:11:50.080 I was bodiless and formless

00:11:52.260 until things began to appear,

00:11:53.800 a row of oil-lit street lamps

00:11:56.160 a cobbled road sloping down

00:11:58.040 the moon a thin smile

00:12:00.560 city trees bending their bows

00:12:02.820 so far back

00:12:04.380 the wind's wild

00:12:05.860 tall tenement buildings line the road

00:12:08.560 to Castle Hill 1.00

00:12:09.940 a witch will die here 1.00

00:12:11.920 in the morning 1.00

00:12:12.900 I descend a full three levels

00:12:16.120 below the city of Edinburgh

00:12:17.220 into a low arched stone corridor

00:12:19.440 a guard is nestled in a nook

00:12:21.460 he peers into the gloom

00:12:23.620 I need him to go so I can come to you

00:12:27.360 coalesce right next to his ear and whisper

00:12:30.500 back out you go into the null

00:12:32.780 go on your body is so heavy isn't it?

00:12:36.280 who is that?

00:12:37.840 I don't know how I know how to do this

00:12:40.560 but I do

00:12:41.380 I always have

00:12:42.960 I gently help his consciousness to separate from his body

00:12:46.640 his only dreaming

00:12:48.060 I say it into his ear

00:12:50.640 low and over and over

00:12:52.160 until his eyes close and his head

00:12:54.100 lolls. To be able to do

00:12:56.120 something like this you must learn

00:12:57.580 not to have those around you drink

00:13:00.140 your energy.

00:13:02.160 I have learnt the hard way.

00:13:04.080 As a child I used to give away light like

00:13:06.080 it was nothing. Those without

00:13:08.160 it would fill themselves up with

00:13:10.060 all that good energy like I was an eternal

00:13:12.160 font. The purest light attracts

00:13:14.320 the most impenetrable

00:13:16.220 darkness. Great

00:13:18.120 giant moths of death come

00:13:19.800 flying for it at night.

00:13:21.380 all across the world

00:13:23.000 they will smother any source

00:13:25.460 until all they have left is an empty husk

00:13:27.900 I will pay a price

00:13:29.860 for this

00:13:30.780 that is how it goes

00:13:32.300 with shaken hands that don't feel quite solid at all

00:13:36.120 I take off his boots 0.99

00:13:37.280 and wretch, can a spirit dweller vomit

00:13:39.360 yes, yes, yes, what a stench

00:13:41.360 is as bad as this they can

00:13:42.960 he has horned yellow toenails

00:13:45.240 thick and fungal

00:13:46.540 throw his boots away down a tiny wee well

00:13:49.500 if he wakes

00:13:51.340 he won't get anywhere quickly

00:13:53.000 you need time to prepare

00:13:55.500 Gilly Duncan 0.98

00:13:56.560 they will execute you in the morning 0.99

00:13:59.000 strike a match 0.98

00:14:00.840 we have so little time

00:14:03.480 I must hurry now

00:14:05.880 will I read the other bit later?

00:14:09.540 yeah, whatever, yeah, let's do that

00:14:11.160 we can talk and then people can understand the set up

00:14:13.300 so

00:14:14.940 anybody that's familiar with your writing

00:14:17.460 or certain aspects, particularly with Luckinbooth

00:14:19.440 will know that you have an interest in your writing 0.99

00:14:21.940 with this kind of world and these kind of women. 0.92

00:14:24.960 Can you talk a wee bit about that? 0.81

00:14:29.000 Yes, I guess I can.

00:14:31.980 I was trying to work out which way to frame it.

00:14:35.820 So when I was five, I was in primary school

00:14:39.940 and they asked what everybody wanted to be when they grew up.

00:14:44.580 And, you know, Lorna so-so wanted to be a near hostess 0.93

00:14:47.480 and wanted to be whatever

00:14:49.620 and I said, a witch

00:14:51.080 and the teacher was like

00:14:54.320 that's really not very Christian

00:14:55.480 and you know 1.00

00:14:58.040 not possible

00:14:59.660 basically

00:15:00.620 but it was always there

00:15:03.040 my interest in things that you can't see

00:15:06.680 or you can't understand

00:15:07.660 or the idea and energy 1.00

00:15:10.500 of a female as a witch

00:15:12.300 you know, as somebody who grew up

00:15:14.740 voiceless

00:15:15.920 in the care system there was something very potent about it to me but I was also a child who had very

00:15:22.960 extreme dreams who sometimes seemed to know certain things that I shouldn't or would draw

00:15:29.860 things that would later turn up and there was no particular explanation for that and it's not

00:15:35.460 something I even discuss very much now but the the relationship of that and words and storytelling

00:15:43.380 were always hugely important to me and they still are and the different archetypes of the idea of

00:15:51.320 the witch or the idea of witchcraft and how that fits into our legal system now how that fits into

00:15:57.940 the idea of what is acceptable and what's not acceptable and and how women are convicted

00:16:04.460 all these things still have very much an impact today and so those structures are really

00:16:12.740 fascinating to me as well yeah i think what's really interesting i think about hex is the way

00:16:19.340 that you've woven together this modern woman and this woman from the times past and when they speak

00:16:24.500 to each other which you can maybe talk about a wee bit more you see the similarities and there's

00:16:29.480 one point i think where iris says i wish i could tell you that things have changed but they haven't

00:16:34.640 i'm paraphrasing obviously you put much more much more better than that like to put it but i think

00:16:39.260 that's really interesting because that's something that we've come come up against a lot with the

00:16:43.540 campaign is that when people say and this doesn't happen often people say well what's the point of

00:16:48.240 this what's the relevance then we're kind of like well here's here's the relevance it wasn't all

00:16:53.500 women that were executed but 85 percent of those that were that were accused were women yeah and

00:16:58.340 we haven't moved on so very much since then you know there's still an issue with that so i think

00:17:03.140 it's really interesting the way that you've married the two times and ages of women sort of

00:17:07.900 thing in that place and the commonality i mean i think there's a there's always a temptation when

00:17:13.040 you're writing something historically to be overly reverential in a certain way and i know

00:17:18.740 there's certain historians would like me to be more reverential but there we go um i think the

00:17:24.120 thing that's really interesting is who people are and so when we think about witches or we think

00:17:29.300 about gilly duncan or we think about our execution you know i wanted to think about what was her

00:17:36.760 granny's house like? And when she stood on the beach in North Berwick, feeling powerful as a

00:17:41.880 wee girl, you know, what was that like? And when she takes pride in her job, she works as a maid,

00:17:47.280 but she likes her job. All of those things get lost in the way that we sort of fetishise,

00:17:53.780 you know, the archetype rather than the human behind the archetype. And she was a teenage girl

00:17:59.460 just living in extraordinary circumstances

00:18:01.840 much bigger than her

00:18:03.400 and

00:18:04.400 unfortunately there was absolutely nothing that she

00:18:07.520 could do about that and there's one point

00:18:09.440 where she says

00:18:10.300 really they killed me because I went out

00:18:13.440 at night and even now

00:18:15.580 in the newspapers sometimes you see them say

00:18:17.440 oh well you shouldn't have went to a park after

00:18:19.420 8 o'clock or

00:18:20.360 it's such a

00:18:23.680 sad

00:18:25.000 thing that

00:18:26.780 you might want to go for a walk

00:18:29.200 in the dark and look at the stars

00:18:31.640 but you might have to think twice about that

00:18:33.340 still

00:18:33.980 stay in your chains so that you may be safe

00:18:37.500 sort of thing, yeah it's a horrible idea

00:18:39.880 one of the things

00:18:41.880 that I was thinking about when I read it

00:18:43.680 was the fact that

00:18:45.700 although the two women are separated 0.84

00:18:47.520 by 500 years

00:18:49.000 there really is no difference

00:18:51.200 in them in terms of the way that they thought

00:18:53.680 or their ideas and one of the things

00:18:55.780 that we get a lot on Witches of Scotland

00:18:58.000 is people saying 1.00

00:18:58.780 that could never happen again because those people were stupid 1.00

00:19:01.460 back then that thought of those things 1.00

00:19:03.120 and they didn't understand

00:19:05.640 we wouldn't fall for that now

00:19:07.500 we understand that this isn't real

00:19:09.140 but what was really interesting was

00:19:11.240 finding the woman 500

00:19:13.280 years on saying

00:19:15.320 we're just falling for different stories

00:19:17.300 now, okay we're not burning women as witches

00:19:19.360 but other things are happening

00:19:21.380 to us

00:19:21.940 I think that would never happen

00:19:25.500 again, we are watching the world

00:19:27.440 clearly

00:19:28.060 encapsulating the fact that that will happen again

00:19:31.120 and history repeats itself over and over

00:19:33.440 and that's one of the things I find really interesting

00:19:36.200 there's always the idea that people in history

00:19:39.140 didn't take drugs or have sex or fight

00:19:42.220 or have big thoughts

00:19:44.320 and we didn't invent it, the generation before us didn't invent it

00:19:47.720 this has always been the case

00:19:49.840 and so the idea that any of those things

00:19:54.500 are so far away

00:19:56.120 all you need to do is look at our legal system

00:19:58.440 all you need to do is look at somebody who

00:19:59.980 stands up in our legal system, stands up

00:20:02.480 in our media and

00:20:04.260 the

00:20:06.060 consequence that they can have for that

00:20:08.040 and it's really not a safe

00:20:10.260 system yet, it's a better

00:20:12.440 system but it's by

00:20:14.460 no means not still impacted

00:20:16.380 you know

00:20:17.360 One of the things someone talks about, I think it was

00:20:20.260 Mary Craig on the podcast said

00:20:22.040 she was talking about a woman that had been accused of witchcraft

00:20:24.740 and I know when you talk about Edinburgh

00:20:26.740 like I love the way you imagine

00:20:29.120 Edinburgh and you talk about it and I love

00:20:30.940 the fact that you can identify obviously

00:20:32.860 all the places but she said

00:20:35.000 something which I found really funny 1.00

00:20:36.900 which she said most of the witches that were

00:20:38.840 executed in Edinburgh lived in tenements

00:20:40.980 and I was like

00:20:42.380 oh my god. Yeah you just don't picture it

00:20:44.740 I don't think that it's a similar

00:20:46.940 lifestyle to cities

00:20:49.060 now you know you'd think of it I don't know exactly

00:20:50.980 what I pictured but the thought that there were

00:20:52.700 tenements was actually quite sort of

00:20:54.680 shocking to me yeah and so much of it was down to you know lots of people were accused just because

00:21:00.500 of money you know when gilly duncan is accused her her employers the bailiff david seaton he's

00:21:06.880 in lots of debt his wife has a brother the brother is married briefly to a woman called

00:21:12.860 euphemy mccalzian euphemy mccalzian has inherited a lot of money that he thinks that he should have

00:21:18.880 she's a very wealthy woman she's wealthy enough that her husband even takes her name which you

00:21:23.920 It's like, who does that at the time? 0.77

00:21:27.100 And well, how can you, what could you do?

00:21:30.500 Well, you could have an accuser of witchcraft.

00:21:32.460 Who could you have to accuse her of witchcraft? 1.00

00:21:34.480 There's a maid worker in the heist. 1.00

00:21:36.320 A lot of the things were down to money, power, land, business, vindictiveness, 0.81

00:21:45.780 and just a display of power, a display of the state's power,

00:21:51.900 a display of what the state can do you know years and years ago I built a school's bridal

00:21:58.060 I was living in London and I decided to build a school's bridal sculpt a school's bridal from

00:22:03.000 steel I didn't know how to sculpt with steel but I was just going with that punk like you'll work

00:22:08.080 out so I ordered big massive sheets of steel to come to my tiny wee flat in London and I had to

00:22:14.520 do it in the back garden and I cut out this big school's bridal it's like a mask that would go

00:22:19.920 over a woman's head and there would be a kind of point that would hold your tongue down 0.72

00:22:25.280 and you would be paraded through the market to show what happens if you're done with the

00:22:29.400 crime of scolding and the crime of scolding was one step off of being done with the crime 0.99

00:22:34.460 of cursing and so that was what they did so I was working with women in prison at the

00:22:40.140 time and I wanted to show how women in prison are convicted and tried as women as much as 0.86

00:22:47.100 they are contrived for the crimes that they've committed. 0.85

00:22:50.600 And so I built this massive school's bridal, 0.95

00:22:53.260 cut it out, this giant pagan mask, 0.99

00:22:56.080 and I bolted the ears down on it. 0.99

00:22:59.100 And then I drilled the eyes out and did all this stuff. 0.91

00:23:02.720 And my neighbours were really religious,

00:23:04.300 and they kept looking out the window,

00:23:05.940 just like, what is she doing?

00:23:09.060 What is she doing?

00:23:09.860 And then I couldn't get it to age,

00:23:11.320 so I set fire to it.

00:23:13.080 And then I left it under the moon for a few months.

00:23:17.100 and they were just like, they were Baptists, they were really lovely people and yeah it was getting

00:23:23.700 more faded and just staring at them from the garden and I engraved it with words sent to me

00:23:30.800 by women in prison in the UK and in the US and it was a huge undertaking to do that and to show

00:23:40.060 how they were silenced because they were women, not because of the crimes they committed but

00:23:46.520 because they were women who had committed those crimes and anyway in the end I painted it black 0.56

00:23:53.560 and I did all the words in silver and they came out as a palimpsest and I said to the neighbors

00:23:59.300 it's just a project for university you're like sure they were still really nervous

00:24:04.860 but yes that idea of those systems and how those systems are still impacted and how any

00:24:15.200 woman who speaks out on so many things 0.95

00:24:17.480 still has to prove

00:24:19.520 that they might be truthful

00:24:20.880 prove that they might not just be

00:24:23.340 you know hysterical

00:24:25.720 or just not know their mind

00:24:27.000 or you know they've maybe been mistaken

00:24:28.700 or you know all these different things

00:24:30.700 it's still just such a massive part of culture

00:24:33.940 and 1.00

00:24:35.000 and these two women

00:24:36.720 they laugh

00:24:38.680 you know and they're funny 1.00

00:24:40.200 and they do what women do 1.00

00:24:41.800 what people do

00:24:43.640 you know even in the worst of circumstances 0.95

00:24:45.180 and what she wants to do

00:24:48.460 Iris comes back from the future 0.88

00:24:49.860 she wants to let her be warm 0.99

00:24:52.220 she wants to conjure up this blanket 0.99

00:24:54.680 and let her have some soup 1.00

00:24:55.840 and let her have some dignity 1.00

00:24:57.240 in that last wee space that she's got

00:24:59.720 So really she's come back in time

00:25:02.400 so that she's not on her own

00:25:03.540 on her final night

00:25:04.740 that she's there as a companion with her

00:25:07.660 to see her through it

00:25:08.580 but she doesn't know herself, Iris, what will happen

00:25:11.520 It's a leap of faith for her essentially

00:25:14.060 to go and do this

00:25:15.060 And I wrote this in lockdown, like literally like channeling, you know, a 15th century witch for three months upstairs and then going down and making the tea.

00:25:26.900 It was a very intense experience because Gilly Duncan was a real person and she had a real mum and a real sister and, you know, she died that way.

00:25:38.180 So who am I to engage with her story unless I'm going to be completely respectful to, you know.

00:25:43.620 and were you approached by the publishers for for a series that they brought out yeah did they tell

00:25:50.440 you who they wanted you to write about or did they just say can you give us something they just said

00:25:54.800 witches which is jenny which is and i went okay so did you have a research i mean you nailed it

00:26:02.880 exactly exactly did you have a research process where you're working out who you wanted to write

00:26:07.680 about or did you know the story already and you were like that was an automatic fit for you

00:26:12.260 I've studied kind of witchcraft,

00:26:14.980 the history of witchcraft,

00:26:15.760 things around witchcraft on and off

00:26:16.960 all my adult life.

00:26:20.360 So I had an idea,

00:26:21.760 and I love North Berwick.

00:26:22.940 I adore North Berwick.

00:26:24.320 There's the image that

00:26:25.600 when King James V comes into East Lothian,

00:26:28.280 he says that he can't land

00:26:29.500 because there's 200 witches and cauldrons

00:26:31.380 out on the bay.

00:26:32.900 Can you imagine?

00:26:34.080 Just be wonderful.

00:26:35.600 Anyway, they're out on the bay

00:26:37.240 hanging out with the devil,

00:26:38.520 and him and his young wife,

00:26:40.040 Queen Anne from Denmark,

00:26:41.740 can't come in and he at the time is beginning to write demonology what better marketing campaign

00:26:49.120 could you possibly have yeah than um doing a real life witch trial before you publish your book six

00:26:55.820 years later anyway just saying yeah yeah um so yeah and i've always been really drawn to north

00:27:03.120 berwick and uh kelly duncan was just she seemed like the right one to work with yeah the idea of

00:27:09.300 you write teen girls so well

00:27:11.740 if anybody's familiar with

00:27:13.580 Jenny's first book, The Panopticon

00:27:15.280 the character in that's really

00:27:17.640 fantastic, you really are able to access

00:27:19.680 what it's like, that kind of

00:27:21.780 the rage

00:27:23.000 powerlessness but also the power that

00:27:25.660 they've got, I currently live with my daughter

00:27:27.640 who's 17 tomorrow so

00:27:29.160 I'm really in that zone

00:27:31.540 just now, holy moly

00:27:33.640 but you really are great

00:27:35.600 at accessing where she is but that

00:27:37.560 is really intense to write from that viewpoint even at the best of times never mind you know

00:27:41.960 the night before an execution exactly and there's obviously not that much sort of historical fact

00:27:49.240 known about her so you must have had to have done quite a lot of kind of imagination

00:27:52.780 you know filling out the story was that easy to do it was after a point yeah i mean i looked at the

00:28:00.980 I read the Malleus Maleficarum

00:28:04.060 for fun

00:28:05.140 every couple of years anyway

00:28:06.640 and I looked at demonology again

00:28:09.380 and some of the European witchcraft texts

00:28:11.620 some of the historical Scottish witchcraft texts

00:28:14.360 there was a publication

00:28:17.000 News of Scotland

00:28:19.480 or News of Edinburgh

00:28:20.900 which was published at the time

00:28:22.160 documenting what was happening with the witches

00:28:25.020 so that would go down to England

00:28:26.320 they always wanted it to be really 0.94

00:28:28.300 graphic sexual bits 0.53

00:28:30.580 because of course 0.98

00:28:31.640 very very important

00:28:33.420 yes exactly

00:28:34.560 that was you know

00:28:35.560 that was very popular

00:28:37.260 it definitely wasn't about

00:28:39.260 sexual repression of the men

00:28:40.820 in the church

00:28:41.280 it definitely wasn't a driving force 0.99

00:28:43.800 for these young women 1.00

00:28:44.920 to be stripped naked 0.99

00:28:45.860 and inspected

00:28:46.860 and the things in it

00:28:48.360 like you know

00:28:48.860 there's the whole

00:28:49.360 in demonology

00:28:50.860 there's a story about a priest

00:28:52.100 who is

00:28:54.220 there was a thing 1.00

00:28:55.020 that a woman could take a penis 1.00

00:28:56.180 just by looking at a man's body 1.00

00:28:57.960 and you know 1.00

00:28:58.660 she would turn into a horse 1.00

00:28:59.960 if she didn't take the Eucharist 0.96

00:29:01.100 and all these different things. 1.00

00:29:02.680 But anyway, the priest had had his penis taken 1.00

00:29:04.300 by the local witch. 1.00

00:29:05.560 No, it wasn't the priest, it was somebody else.

00:29:07.680 And he was annoyed about it, so...

00:29:10.100 He would be, I mean, in fairness.

00:29:12.020 I mean, to be fair.

00:29:12.620 To be fair, you know, anyway, so...

00:29:14.840 Did it say when she'd taken away

00:29:16.560 what she'd done with it, or...?

00:29:18.040 Well, she puts them in a box. 0.97

00:29:19.380 They would put them in a box. 1.00

00:29:20.340 Penis box. 0.99

00:29:21.000 So he goes over to our house and, you know, 0.99

00:29:24.140 knock, knock, knock. 1.00

00:29:25.880 I want my penis back. 1.00

00:29:27.480 And she says, well, come in. 1.00

00:29:29.960 go over and have a look in the box

00:29:31.900 rummages about 0.99

00:29:33.140 yeah so there's like 30 penises in this box 0.99

00:29:36.040 and they said that they were like 0.99

00:29:37.320 like

00:29:38.840 they sort of snuffled around

00:29:41.180 and ate oats and apples

00:29:42.920 anyway

00:29:44.780 it's very imaginative

00:29:46.100 so much to unpick on that

00:29:48.020 and he says to her

00:29:50.040 I'm going to take that one

00:29:53.000 and he takes the biggest one

00:29:55.840 and she says

00:29:57.420 that's not yours that's the taste

00:29:58.620 and this is in the legal documentation

00:30:01.680 of how we tried and decided

00:30:05.520 who would be tried to fishcraft 0.99

00:30:06.840 and then they said they would put their penis 0.97

00:30:08.780 so sorry for anybody who's been distressed by this 1.00

00:30:12.440 they would put their penises 1.00

00:30:13.940 they would hang them up in the trees 0.99

00:30:16.340 so the birds could come and eat them

00:30:20.240 and this is again in the legal text

00:30:23.800 that they used in court 0.92

00:30:26.540 to try and convict and justify the torture and execution of these women

00:30:33.580 and the men also who were tried as witches.

00:30:36.640 We've spoken to quite a lot of historians

00:30:38.500 and it's interesting the reluctance from quite a few of the historians

00:30:44.180 to paint it as a gendered issue.

00:30:47.840 Quite a lot of the historians have been like,

00:30:49.540 it's very complex, it's not black and white, 0.77

00:30:51.780 which obviously we would completely agree with.

00:30:53.460 It clearly isn't just black and white.

00:30:54.940 but it wasn't really necessarily

00:30:57.220 about them being women

00:30:58.260 and we were always a bit like

00:30:59.820 well

00:31:00.320 the numbers are pretty suggestive

00:31:03.300 and then we had a woman

00:31:04.900 Professor Marion Gibson 1.00

00:31:07.140 and she was like absolutely gendered 1.00

00:31:10.080 how could it be anything else

00:31:11.600 85% of the accused are women

00:31:13.360 and a lot of the men that were accused

00:31:15.440 were caught up in things

00:31:17.660 they were a son or a friend

00:31:20.200 or a husband occasionally

00:31:22.120 that was named

00:31:23.380 or had been named by somebody else,

00:31:25.120 a woman that had been accused

00:31:26.400 and in her confession had given up other names.

00:31:29.480 It's just, of course it's gendered, I think.

00:31:32.660 I'm not saying there's... 0.99

00:31:33.160 There's a display of power as well.

00:31:34.800 And for the men who were, you know,

00:31:36.860 Gilly talks about being tortured by David Smeaton

00:31:40.360 and multiple other men who'd come along.

00:31:43.440 And it was important for me to write in that,

00:31:45.580 that lots of them had known each other since childhood,

00:31:48.480 that some of those men were outside being sick

00:31:50.060 because they didn't want to be caught in that circumstance necessarily.

00:31:54.660 But once you're in a situation where male power,

00:31:58.640 the consequence of this power in the state is death,

00:32:02.420 that's pretty hard to stand up against,

00:32:05.200 especially if you're on the side that's less likely to die.

00:32:09.580 So the nuances of it are massive

00:32:11.840 and I don't think in any way hugely served most ordinary people.

00:32:19.120 you know there was financial gain

00:32:20.920 they were paid by the hour 0.98

00:32:21.900 they paid the witch pickers by the hour 0.98

00:32:23.780 who would pay you by the hour unless they really want to 0.99

00:32:26.900 draw it out

00:32:28.020 draw it out

00:32:28.980 and they thought they were

00:32:32.220 the justification was we're going after the devil

00:32:34.720 we're going after the devil via 1.00

00:32:36.300 via women or teenage girls 0.78

00:32:39.440 largely or men

00:32:41.080 who've you know worked with them

00:32:42.900 or sympathised with them or stood up for them

00:32:45.000 or men who've been different in one way or another

00:32:47.260 and you know

00:32:48.700 And the idea that King James was standing up to the devil himself

00:32:54.620 makes him a pretty formidable person.

00:32:58.500 Who's going to fight a man who's fought the devil?

00:33:00.160 Nobody.

00:33:01.000 And this was a paranoid guy.

00:33:03.980 He'd been through a lot.

00:33:05.700 He'd been through a lot in his life.

00:33:07.360 He'd had a lot of trauma.

00:33:08.800 We had a psychoanalyst on for one of the episodes

00:33:11.420 and we talked about trauma and the impact that that has.

00:33:14.380 And we talked largely about the generational trauma

00:33:18.100 from the accused and the families

00:33:20.420 where the people had been found guilty,

00:33:23.240 how that may have echoed down

00:33:25.060 through generations of Scotland.

00:33:26.860 Completely, yeah.

00:33:28.180 And we know now that trauma is born into people,

00:33:31.120 physiologically, trauma is born into people

00:33:34.400 and in other ways it's there as well.

00:33:37.360 So, aye, it's just a really fascinating thing,

00:33:40.740 but again, it's ordinary people by and large

00:33:45.300 being caught in circumstances of history

00:33:47.780 that are just massive

00:33:49.580 the terror people must have felt

00:33:51.900 when it was at its peaks

00:33:53.840 when anybody, you must have been thinking

00:33:56.040 I don't want to step out of line

00:33:57.680 or get caught for something that

00:33:59.960 wasn't really a big deal

00:34:01.840 but could go together in a so-called

00:34:04.000 case against you 1.00

00:34:05.040 or be a quarrelsome dame 1.00

00:34:06.580 you wouldn't want to be caught being a quarrelsome dame

00:34:09.940 and the hysteria, stay quiet 0.96

00:34:11.780 the kind of collective hysteria

00:34:13.420 that would go around it

00:34:14.660 You know, and you just think, we need to learn.

00:34:20.320 We still need to learn from it.

00:34:23.020 And these people were just people.

00:34:25.380 Yeah.

00:34:25.960 But it seems that we don't learn.

00:34:28.280 No.

00:34:28.460 And it seems that although we're not executing people as witches,

00:34:33.000 women as witches, or indeed people in general as witches,

00:34:36.680 we have a whole new forum of attacking people through social media. 0.95

00:34:42.200 so we kind of started off with at this time the printing press and the printing press the news

00:34:48.980 from scotland becoming a big thing pamphlets we now have the modern media and we also see a lot

00:34:56.220 of women who stick their head above the parapet on social media and come in for all sorts of flack

00:35:03.020 and as you say having to continually prove themselves in order to be heard and every group

00:35:10.180 that's othered is experiencing that you know our media does it the vilification of anybody who lives

00:35:15.180 in poverty the vilification of anybody who you know has chronic illness the vilification of

00:35:20.980 anybody whose sexuality is you know not considered the mainstream the vilification of everyone who

00:35:26.880 is othered has got a nice shiny lieutenant right on them and that is you know the media and then

00:35:35.220 as you say, filter down into things like social media.

00:35:39.520 Do you feel a kind of responsibility sometimes

00:35:41.960 to be the voice of the othered through your writing?

00:35:46.020 No, I am somebody who grew up othered

00:35:49.980 and I will always be on that viewpoint

00:35:57.640 more than ever will be on any other.

00:35:59.680 That's where I come from.

00:36:01.240 It's what I am.

00:36:02.900 So it's funny, when I go to different countries,

00:36:04.660 they're always like you talk you write about these people you're obsessed with these people

00:36:12.000 and um and the other and i say well these people are people and they're the people that i'm

00:36:17.740 interested in and i am these people you know i'm not writing from a voyeuristic point of view you

00:36:24.060 know i'm writing from a position that was absolutely entrenched in that and uh as a human

00:36:31.140 being that's difficult as an artist it's a great way to learn it's a really great way to learn

00:36:35.400 because you observe those structures and those um different nuances in a very thorough way you know

00:36:44.060 is it hard after you've written something like hex um you know or or luck and booth or the

00:36:50.540 panopticon i think like any any of your books really is it hard after after that to kind of

00:36:55.440 go back to normal life again you know is there a sort of a decompression period i'm thinking

00:37:00.360 particularly hex because hex is very harrowing so when you finished that you know you said it was

00:37:05.100 over a three-month period did you have to take time out from writing or were you working on

00:37:10.640 something else or i'm always working um it can make you quite ill basically it does make you

00:37:18.740 quite ill for a while it can be there's a definite impact from it there's a fallout from it i work

00:37:24.620 very intensive intensively and very you know kind of hyper focused when i'm doing it um i always say

00:37:31.280 that part of your brain is like the really the bit where you get all all the good stuff and then

00:37:36.020 your day-to-day life you're kind of like oh god like do we not need to do the puver in like do

00:37:40.960 you know what i mean yeah it is a it definitely is um it's a different space but it's a space i've

00:37:47.720 been working in for such a long time i understand that i understand getting into that mind state i

00:37:52.960 lose time, I start writing

00:37:55.060 and then it's six hours later

00:37:57.100 if I'm writing well

00:37:58.280 it's ten hours, you know

00:38:00.080 you write in this

00:38:02.600 very particular space

00:38:04.860 and research

00:38:06.820 and then I edit very critically

00:38:08.380 I come out of that and then I'm very very

00:38:10.300 critical and think in a completely different

00:38:13.060 way, much more clear minded way

00:38:14.540 and then you go back in and

00:38:16.720 repeat the process kind of thing

00:38:18.980 but normal life, what is

00:38:21.040 normal life?

00:38:21.620 No idea, is anybody having a normal life? I don't know.

00:38:25.580 You write across different forms too, so there's a poem at the end of Hex.

00:38:30.300 Why did you decide to include a poem?

00:38:32.700 I wanted to write a poem for Gilly, so I felt very attached to her when I was writing it.

00:38:41.360 And if I go past Castle Hill, I always have a wee nod.

00:38:47.340 I'll get a wee grey rose at some point for her.

00:38:51.620 but I'm a poet first and foremost everything's poetry to me everything comes from poetry

00:38:55.880 so it made sense to kind of conclude with that I needed it to sort of end end the journey yeah

00:39:05.140 that's interesting and um and you've got several books that are coming out well a couple of things

00:39:11.900 that are coming out soon don't you do you want to talk about that a little bit or

00:39:14.560 um yeah sorry my little Madonna mic's doing are you okay no I'm grand I'm just kind of

00:39:20.120 making noises at you

00:39:21.600 I've got a poetry collection called the Bone Library

00:39:26.220 coming out in autumn

00:39:27.680 I was working in a bone library

00:39:31.720 at Summerhall in Edinburgh

00:39:34.200 it was the old bone library

00:39:35.300 So Summerhall was the vet school

00:39:38.360 Summerhall was the old dick vets in Edinburgh

00:39:40.080 and I went to a staff meeting

00:39:42.300 I was the port in residence in the building

00:39:43.700 so I went to a staff meeting to see what I could find out

00:39:46.380 about the building

00:39:46.880 and somebody said, has anybody told her about the bones

00:39:49.920 in the attic and you were like hello and I'm here and then somebody else was like and then

00:39:55.420 somebody said they're inferior bones and I was like well I really want them now like so I made

00:40:00.780 them take me up to the attic and anyway spent all week dragging big boxes of bones down and I was

00:40:07.640 engraving poetry on the bones like the kind of old oracle bones in China I used to use divination

00:40:14.440 and different ways of working them anyway I was working in the workshop I was engraving in the

00:40:18.880 workshop and bone engraving stinks really really horrific horrifically how do you engrave on bones

00:40:26.040 um i was using dremels i was using a i would do it by hand first and then i would use dremels and

00:40:32.000 so when you're going down through the layers anyway i was in the workshop with the guys that

00:40:35.960 do all the maintenance on the building and they were like yeah come in you know it's fine we'll

00:40:40.860 give you a space and they were all being did nice and then a week later they went to the boss and

00:40:44.640 they're like we can't eat our sandwiches like we can't just hope and they came back and they were

00:40:51.760 like you're going to have to go and work in the courtyard okay so anyway and are the bones

00:40:56.540 the bones categorized do you know what yes yes you would have like ox bones or um not all of them

00:41:04.820 you wouldn't always know what animal they were but you would get like the spine or you would get the

00:41:08.360 all the different things so they're all going up in display in summer hall okay so when i do

00:41:13.440 the bone library launch all the bones and the bone artwork will be there and the bone library was

00:41:19.880 and then it's in luck and booth i thought it's too good not to use so it ended up being in luck

00:41:23.680 and booth but they were um taking out all the old cabinets in the bone library to make it wheelchair

00:41:31.500 access which i thought was brilliant but i said you know what i want to create a poem that's like

00:41:36.140 a spine that goes along at the height if you're in a wheelchair so you get the the poem as you go

00:41:40.580 along and it goes into the gig venue so it was just kind of ways of tying up the you know the

00:41:46.120 old and the new in the building um i took my wee boy into work and he was just like mom this is

00:41:50.840 really weird did he not already have a hint of that yeah it's it's you know it's it's normal at

00:41:58.280 home but even that was another level you know it was pushing it it was pushing it a wee bit yeah

00:42:06.020 yeah so and then I've got

00:42:09.700 which hasn't been announced yet

00:42:12.000 so

00:42:12.460 should we just move on

00:42:14.740 is there anything else you'd like to talk about

00:42:17.680 that you have announced

00:42:18.460 I'm doing a bunch of TV things

00:42:20.900 so I'm writing

00:42:21.980 I'm writing The Blade Artist

00:42:24.580 by Irvin Welsh

00:42:25.760 it's a six part TV series

00:42:27.660 which is Begbie

00:42:29.420 25 years on

00:42:31.640 he's working as a

00:42:33.940 very successful commercial artist

00:42:36.200 at LA. He's spent a long time

00:42:38.040 in prison and then he's

00:42:39.780 in this new

00:42:41.940 place in his life.

00:42:44.080 I'm working on that just now, which is

00:42:46.000 amazing. It's absolutely brilliant.

00:42:48.260 It's another responsibility

00:42:49.620 because like Hex,

00:42:52.040 you take on the responsibility of telling that

00:42:53.840 story and it's a very specific

00:42:55.640 legacy. There's a lot of people

00:42:58.000 that are waited to beg these stories.

00:43:00.480 Robert Carlellab is so brilliant

00:43:02.100 and it's really

00:43:03.680 excited to be working with them

00:43:05.740 and it's work I read when I was

00:43:08.000 in my teens, kind of living in homeless

00:43:10.120 accommodation in a wee bed set a long time

00:43:12.220 ago

00:43:12.540 so I'm doing that and then

00:43:16.340 we are doing The Panopticon

00:43:18.300 as a TV series

00:43:19.280 and I might direct that

00:43:22.200 I'm not sure but I'll definitely be writing

00:43:24.200 it and then we're doing

00:43:25.920 Luckin Booth

00:43:26.600 as a very long running TV series

00:43:30.220 because that's obviously over

00:43:32.140 a long period of time so that is

00:43:34.180 that's the plan for the three of them

00:43:36.040 Fantastic, we hope Hex might

00:43:38.240 be a runner for TV

00:43:40.120 as well. Yeah, I'd love to see it

00:43:42.180 in the theatre actually

00:43:43.300 It's such an intense space

00:43:45.780 and you've really just got one main

00:43:47.440 location

00:43:48.680 I think it would be really cool

00:43:51.920 So will you sort of

00:43:54.140 put on the back burner the writing of novels

00:43:56.040 just now if you're doing all the TV work

00:43:58.120 To a certain degree I've got

00:43:59.980 half of my next novel down

00:44:01.440 and that's coming out with

00:44:04.840 the other announcement next week

00:44:06.860 so there's two books coming

00:44:08.800 so no

00:44:11.180 I've got half of one down

00:44:12.560 and I was like oh I'm going to take a wee break from writing novels

00:44:14.540 and it's like no no

00:44:15.300 but I'll have to stagger it

00:44:18.840 you know I'll work intensively

00:44:21.020 on one and then you take a break

00:44:22.960 and you go and you do the other

00:44:24.280 and I don't start novels lightly

00:44:26.080 because I know that once you're in it

00:44:27.720 you're never really going to chill out

00:44:30.560 until it's done

00:44:31.140 like it just sits on your shoulder

00:44:32.620 and it could be three years, it could be five years

00:44:34.940 it could be one year, you just don't know

00:44:36.460 Can I take you back to something that you said at the start

00:44:41.740 which was that when you were a wee girl

00:44:43.660 you wanted to be a witch

00:44:45.580 when you were that age

00:44:47.540 what did you think a witch was?

00:44:49.720 What were you looking for?

00:44:51.760 Well I'd read, I must have read

00:44:53.400 The Worst Witch in school

00:44:55.200 which I loved, it's obviously brilliant

00:44:57.560 and

00:44:58.460 I had just the idea of, like, turning people into frogs and stuff.

00:45:02.500 Okay, sensible.

00:45:03.880 So, like, sort of...

00:45:05.300 Vengeful, maybe a little bit vengeful.

00:45:07.120 I was about to say benign there, but it's not really benign.

00:45:08.880 No, it's not a frog.

00:45:10.480 I wanted to fly, obviously flying, brilliant.

00:45:15.440 Yeah, just all, you know, wearing black.

00:45:17.840 And so I was a little goth child who wasn't dressing like a goth yet,

00:45:20.720 but it was on the way.

00:45:22.060 You had a goth heart.

00:45:22.440 Do you know what I mean?

00:45:23.220 It definitely was, you know...

00:45:24.780 And I was just, I was really into telekinesis

00:45:28.380 before I knew what telekinesis was.

00:45:30.060 So I would sit staring at a pencil.

00:45:32.220 I'd be like, if I just, for ages, it never worked, sadly.

00:45:37.120 But it could.

00:45:38.980 And the idea that it could was the thing that fascinated me.

00:45:42.920 And obviously growing up in the care system,

00:45:45.420 you have stories told to you all the time about who you are

00:45:48.840 and stories about who other people are.

00:45:51.200 And I was always quite sceptical about that.

00:45:53.720 and witches were like heroes to me

00:45:56.560 you know the idea of that was just

00:45:58.500 the idea of

00:46:00.220 working with the unseen

00:46:02.440 when so much in society that is

00:46:04.740 unseen is

00:46:06.240 people say it just doesn't

00:46:08.580 happen, that's not real, that's

00:46:09.840 you know all these things

00:46:12.040 so the idea of people who actively

00:46:13.940 chose to work with the unseen

00:46:16.480 were fascinating to me

00:46:18.460 The idea of having a kind of a hidden

00:46:20.460 power as well

00:46:21.360 you know in a fairly powerless situation to have that internal power completely and there was a

00:46:27.320 there's a superstition about children that come from nowhere you know a little child from nowhere

00:46:31.120 turns up in your kitchen and people are like where did it mean the only social worker brought it but

00:46:35.900 like where do you know what I mean yeah there really is and it's pretty freaking pronounced

00:46:41.500 like yeah so I was always um aware of that I was always aware that you know people are quite

00:46:48.220 freaked out by children anyway I think

00:46:49.620 yeah you watch

00:46:52.040 you watch any horror thing there'll be some small

00:46:54.220 children whispering

00:46:55.660 kids get it

00:46:56.780 the witch is called the little girl

00:46:59.880 that she just turns up in the village in Africa 0.93

00:47:02.400 and then she goes to live with a 0.75

00:47:04.240 community of witches if you've not seen that 0.82

00:47:05.920 it's brilliant yeah it's called I Am Witch

00:47:08.160 yeah I have seen it recently

00:47:09.920 total brain fog but it's really

00:47:12.280 brilliant and that she gets taken in 1.00

00:47:13.860 well they're forced to live with a community of older 1.00

00:47:16.180 women witches I think it would be 1.00

00:47:18.040 I've not seen that one yet, I'd like to see that one. 1.00

00:47:19.860 I think you'd like it, yeah.

00:47:21.140 It's pretty cool the way that they imagine that there.

00:47:24.080 But yeah, I think that's really interesting.

00:47:26.160 And we've talked before about fictional witches

00:47:29.220 and the places that witches have in myth and in film

00:47:33.440 and in TV and in fiction against the women and men

00:47:37.560 that were accused of being witches.

00:47:40.000 It's kind of an interesting kind of push and pull

00:47:42.020 between those two things.

00:47:43.480 It's interesting. 1.00

00:47:44.980 And I think there's a separation between convicting women 0.71

00:47:47.880 or convicting gay men or convicting whoever

00:47:51.700 as a display of power, as a display of the state 1.00

00:47:55.800 and killing somebody for the religion. 0.73

00:47:58.720 I wouldn't sit and say there's no such thing as a witch. 0.94

00:48:01.100 I wouldn't say there's no such thing as an occult.

00:48:03.480 We, at the moment, are sitting on a planet

00:48:05.740 surrounded by infinite space.

00:48:08.760 It was created 13.9 billion years ago

00:48:11.100 out of atoms and matter

00:48:13.060 and we don't know why we're here.

00:48:14.460 so the idea that we know for sure we've got it all tied up via science which is fairly recent

00:48:21.360 um just isn't true you know we use such a small part of our brain i get it but i'm you know

00:48:28.660 coming from my own personal journey both with words and with the human mind and what the human

00:48:34.760 mind's capable of and the things we don't understand about the human mind the things

00:48:39.400 we don't understand about how we use it there's a difference between saying that woman took my

00:48:44.280 penis just by looking at me or somebody is tapped into an energy that why is that any different from 0.97

00:48:51.860 going to church and eating the the body of christ and drinking his blood well that's cannibalism

00:48:57.960 and vampirism just in one fell swoop yeah disrespect if you're into it you're into it but

00:49:02.400 let's not say yeah the idea you know like why is that that's okay because you've got really good

00:49:10.300 PR. And to be fair, Christianity nicked 0.98

00:49:12.440 most of its festivals from the Wiccan 1.00

00:49:14.540 and

00:49:16.800 pagan religions. These were

00:49:18.560 earth religions. They were things that were

00:49:20.420 about looking after the planet, about

00:49:22.580 looking after each other, about birthing children,

00:49:24.740 about being engaged with the stars, and about

00:49:26.340 knowing that you don't know

00:49:28.060 the answers.

00:49:30.260 And so, that's brilliant.

00:49:32.600 That's a brilliant thing.

00:49:34.100 They're all stories. They're all stories

00:49:36.380 to try and help us explain

00:49:38.600 what we don't know and in the Wiccan origin myth they say that there is the there was the age of

00:49:44.120 the father and then there was the age of the son and they were basically the age of industry

00:49:48.180 they were really vital for you know having that more aggressive energy for for building all the

00:49:54.680 things in society we needed to build absolutely vital but if we do not transcend to the the age

00:50:01.040 of the the mother or the daughter we will destroy ourselves and we are sitting on that cusp right

00:50:07.640 now so i think the idea that oh which is that's so out there is um again i think about the femininity

00:50:16.180 of it and about the fact that it was lots of women who didn't have power you know people who don't

00:50:21.100 have power are still massively vilified we know that the current cases of those that are accused 0.98

00:50:26.440 of being which is in in places like nigeria or malawi and papa new guinea it tends to be women

00:50:33.520 again and it tends to be uh religious organizations that have that have said you know that that

00:50:39.760 person's a witch and there's money to be made from it as well there's definitely it's a bit like the

00:50:43.760 paid by the hour situation if you give me money i will rid your community of a witch and it tends

00:50:49.040 to be older women often or children and you know there may be banished but there have been cases 0.96

00:50:55.440 of people being killed by mob rule and in fact in malawi they're they're wanting to put back

00:51:00.480 on their legal books the crime of being a witch because there's so much kind of off-piste you know

00:51:06.800 my thing is if there's a crime of being a witch why isn't there a crime of being a priest

00:51:10.120 why isn't there a crime of being in a man why isn't there a crime of being i've studied all

00:51:14.580 the religions on and off you know and there's so much kind of commonality around them why is

00:51:21.700 the idea of this

00:51:24.080 particular

00:51:24.760 thing so

00:51:27.460 there's so much superstition

00:51:30.360 around it you know

00:51:31.640 and I think that there's very much a place

00:51:34.320 for

00:51:34.900 both the origin myths and

00:51:37.820 the energy and the ideas of

00:51:40.280 the things that come from that

00:51:42.480 and that saying oh it's all

00:51:44.300 just a made up thing well clearly 1.00

00:51:45.740 she probably didn't turn into a horse when 0.99

00:51:48.260 she didn't take the Eucharist 0.99

00:51:49.760 and probably wasn't flying on a broomstick

00:51:53.580 but when the shamans do their journeys

00:51:56.780 and they take DMT and go out in the desert

00:51:59.500 and have these out-of-body experiences

00:52:00.960 what is the difference in that?

00:52:03.540 Why are we almost vilifying the idea

00:52:06.600 of witchcraft or Wiccan origins? 1.00

00:52:11.720 I don't know, I think there's something in it

00:52:13.620 that's very interesting right now

00:52:16.700 and I think it's very much tied to

00:52:19.140 you know in scotland we would have the wise women you know and they would be consulted before you

00:52:25.760 went into war they had power you know and the hans christian anderson fairy tales they brought 0.95

00:52:32.240 them in and were like take the women out put warts on them you know give them big noses and stuff 1.00

00:52:38.180 because before that in the fairy tales there was women who had a lot of power it's about power 1.00

00:52:43.740 and it's about 1.00

00:52:45.840 how dare you have any

00:52:48.140 innate knowledge, how dare you

00:52:50.180 have any innate knowing and what

00:52:52.180 if you have something that I can't see

00:52:54.120 and write down and prove

00:52:56.200 you know. What's really strange

00:52:58.160 about the women that were accused of witchcraft

00:53:00.580 was at the time they were like 0.96

00:53:02.200 well they're women, they can't 1.00

00:53:04.160 really be powerful 1.00

00:53:05.080 where they must get their power

00:53:08.300 from then is the devil

00:53:09.640 they were still powerless

00:53:11.980 they were still vessels for the devil

00:53:13.860 so even when accusing them of witchcraft

00:53:16.380 even when accusing them of killing

00:53:18.080 people, of

00:53:19.620 putting spells on people that would harm

00:53:22.140 their children or their family

00:53:23.800 they still couldn't conceive of the idea of the 1.00

00:53:26.140 woman herself being powerful 0.99

00:53:27.580 but that's why they brought in the devil 1.00

00:53:29.580 because if she's powerful she has to be powerful 0.98

00:53:32.200 for a male, a fallen angel

00:53:34.160 or whatever it is, that's the only

00:53:36.280 way that she could be displaying her power

00:53:37.880 if she was bestowed it 1.00

00:53:39.580 And she definitely has to be debased by having all the sex 1.00

00:53:42.520 and all the detail of it. 1.00

00:53:44.540 Maybe they like the sex.

00:53:45.980 I don't know.

00:53:46.580 There's so many things around that.

00:53:47.980 Do you know what I mean?

00:53:49.060 Some of the stories are pretty elaborate.

00:53:51.600 The thing that will always stay with me, 0.97

00:53:54.020 now obviously the penises and the box and the tree 0.99

00:53:56.380 and the oats and the apples and the snuffling. 0.98

00:53:58.860 It's the oats and the apples.

00:54:00.400 That's in my mind now, so thanks for that so much, Jenny.

00:54:03.680 That also makes an appearance in the book

00:54:05.580 if you want to read about it as well as hear about it.

00:54:08.280 um is is the descriptions of the the semen of the devil being really cold that was something that

00:54:14.820 was repeated in lots of different confessions now we can see why that is it's kind of a social

00:54:19.420 contagion thing because as Claire mentioned before about the pamphlets then people read them and it

00:54:23.980 was really kind of like the equivalent of like you know hello magazine if that still exists or

00:54:28.400 whatever you know the tabloids or whatever it was a way of just getting information out but that the

00:54:33.220 idea that that then passed around and people knew that that was what happened and then that

00:54:38.160 would appear in the confessions and it was a way to talk about sex as well like you know people

00:54:42.520 used to get their porn and um their bibles you know you would get lots of bibles with all the

00:54:48.240 erotic drawings and the little bits because the only book they were the only books you had

00:54:52.160 if you live in a society that's not allowed to talk about it and it's you know shame shame guilt

00:54:56.600 guilt you know whatever um this is a way of society somehow engaging with all of these

00:55:04.320 different things. You could talk about all those terrible

00:55:06.420 things, those terrible witches did.

00:55:08.420 Give us more.

00:55:10.040 And if you didn't put that in the pamphlet,

00:55:12.500 we're really pissed off.

00:55:14.380 I don't approve, tell me more about it.

00:55:16.700 Exactly.

00:55:18.200 Terrible. I think we need to

00:55:20.300 go to some questions now.

00:55:21.560 Is it possible to have the lights up

00:55:24.340 a wee bit so we can see what we're dealing with?

00:55:27.140 What we're dealing with?

00:55:30.300 What are we dealing with?

00:55:32.040 What are we dealing with? Do we have any questions?

00:55:34.320 oh good we do now we've got microphones that are going to come down so there at the back that'd be

00:55:39.960 great please thank you hi hi me okay hey um thanks jenny i really enjoyed hex and it really brought

00:55:49.400 alive kind of what gaily went through and that really came through in the book really strongly

00:55:55.140 but i wanted to ask you why iris told her that things hadn't improved because i was thinking

00:56:02.500 it's the night before she dies and she wants to know have things gotten better do women have more

00:56:08.400 power more agency in the future and iris says well no not really and and i thought that was a bit sad

00:56:15.880 because we've got some very hard fought for rights you know that we have made progress even though

00:56:23.260 there's still misogyny and there's you know evil things happening in the world i thought why did

00:56:28.920 you decide not to give Gili a bit of hope well she's going to get executed so I felt like

00:56:36.440 a truthful conversation in some ways between the two of them and you know we have made progress in

00:56:42.420 lots of ways but if you've been you know murdered and you're lying in a park and policemen are

00:56:47.180 taking photographs of you and sharing it how far have we come in that instance I grew up in

00:56:53.000 the care system where

00:56:54.720 the women I grew up with and myself

00:56:57.480 were actually at the absolute 1.00

00:56:59.420 bottom of what was safe

00:57:01.340 or what was

00:57:02.120 protected by law or otherwise

00:57:05.180 so whilst

00:57:06.320 we have come a long way

00:57:09.460 in lots of ways

00:57:10.440 it also in lots of ways depends on who you are

00:57:13.600 and

00:57:14.680 even if you are

00:57:16.740 much more protected

00:57:19.620 by having some

00:57:21.220 social clout or

00:57:22.680 being able to earn money or all those things

00:57:24.880 you are still absolutely vulnerable

00:57:26.840 at any point that you walk

00:57:29.040 out your door

00:57:29.720 and that is a fact of our society

00:57:33.100 and I think it's something that

00:57:35.060 whilst we think lots of things

00:57:37.000 are getting better

00:57:37.860 I think a lot of things at the moment

00:57:40.600 are very much getting worse

00:57:42.320 and so

00:57:44.780 that conversation between the two of them

00:57:46.820 made sense to me

00:57:48.440 and when Iris talks about 0.98

00:57:50.580 the ways in which women are not safe now

00:57:53.280 a lot of it is talking about walking home at night

00:57:56.940 and walking in the middle of the road

00:57:58.120 and why do you carry your keys in your hand

00:57:59.820 and why do you always look behind you

00:58:01.200 why do you text your friend

00:58:02.300 why do you think twice about going out for a run

00:58:05.080 why are we seeing so many murders in the media at the moment

00:58:09.560 that don't have any particular reason 0.97

00:58:13.120 they can't say oh we killed them because they're a witch 1.00

00:58:16.120 but they killed them 0.71

00:58:18.120 So, yeah, I think there is progress, but I think if you live in extreme poverty or if you live in a group that is massively othered, you know, the trans community at the moment is, you know, going through so much really hard stuff, I think that we aren't all massively moved forward and we have fought for things and we have won things, but there is a lot still to fight for.

00:58:45.620 so

00:58:46.280 she could have given her hope

00:58:48.840 but for me it felt like

00:58:51.500 it was important for

00:58:52.900 and also Iris talks

00:58:55.420 about you know being assaulted

00:58:57.320 at 12 years old and a group of men

00:58:59.520 being brought in to watch she isn't there 0.99

00:59:01.280 just for voyeuristic 0.98

00:59:03.580 reasons she isn't there just to

00:59:05.420 talk about this other person

00:59:07.280 she brings her own circumstances

00:59:09.460 to that so

00:59:10.520 yeah sorry this is just

00:59:13.360 really heavy conversation sorry

00:59:15.200 but it's the truth thank you okay I've got another question I think somebody

00:59:21.860 down at the front here if that's okay

00:59:33.820 I'm thinking of the tremendous as in all the stuff you write it transitions

00:59:41.120 between the real and the imagined and the way you live in that world of the

00:59:44.940 no creation from nothing and so on but what really struck me about a novel and i'm still

00:59:51.120 puzzling about um is that this really wants to be alive and she isn't allowed to be and

01:00:02.220 and i think the most moving thing is that time when she says you mean you've come all this way

01:00:07.120 and nothing's going to happen yeah um and i just wondered if you'd talk a bit about that because

01:00:14.180 it's just reminded me of when you said about there's a price for all the imaginative world

01:00:20.020 yeah so there's there's a bit where iris says to gilly well what did you come for can you save me

01:00:27.780 and and gilly has to say no and that's just an awful thing and i guess that you know we are all

01:00:35.120 helpless about so many things you know we witness so many things in the world that we would love to

01:00:39.220 directly intervene and do something about but but can't always do that and so that helplessness that

01:00:45.820 is part of society and is part of witnessing the things that people are going through

01:00:52.700 and it was important to have that you know she doesn't go back and save her she doesn't go back

01:00:59.400 and change her fate she lived through that that was real that was that was what happened you know

01:01:05.520 and for the book to respect it

01:01:09.140 you had to make a point of that as well

01:01:13.280 but they still laugh, they still engage

01:01:16.280 and Iris in her way is willing to give her life 0.99

01:01:20.320 if necessary just to keep another woman company 1.00

01:01:22.940 for 12 hours before she gets executed 0.98

01:01:24.940 the bonds between women

01:01:27.700 the things that are so rarely celebrated

01:01:31.000 it's so rarely seen in literature

01:01:32.800 are incredibly powerful

01:01:35.000 um yeah okay i've got some more questions we've got time for some a couple of questions here

01:01:44.440 there you go hi there i was wondering what your journey was from the care home to becoming a

01:01:54.640 writer if you'd wanted to be a writer and what what that path was for you um so i was always

01:02:02.020 writing well I started writing poetry when I was seven for no reason whatsoever I was living in a

01:02:08.360 wee caravan park and the library van used to come around once a week and I used to get the books

01:02:14.640 from the library van and I don't know I don't know why I guess partly it was stories you know I was

01:02:20.820 always aware that the social workers would tell a story you'd be brought to somebody's door they'd

01:02:26.700 open the door they'd tell them a story about who you were a story about who they were then you'd

01:02:30.740 if they are then you'd leave then it would happen again so as a child I was very aware of

01:02:37.540 storytelling and how storytelling's used to cover things how storytelling's used to

01:02:43.240 have a veneer of respectability and also how storytelling's used to say that you are something

01:02:47.740 that you're not um and so when I wrote my first poem I was really like there's my voice you know

01:02:56.700 and I was mute a little bit for a short time as a kid

01:02:59.520 and I was definitely voiceless

01:03:00.740 and they said to me on the radio once

01:03:02.540 they said were you writing like really gritty

01:03:04.440 and I was like no I was seven

01:03:06.000 like that came later

01:03:09.580 do you know what I mean

01:03:10.440 give me a break

01:03:12.040 but yeah

01:03:13.420 and I loved anybody who could tell me a story

01:03:17.300 you know if somebody sat next to me on the bus

01:03:19.560 even now if somebody sits next to me

01:03:21.000 and they can tell a story

01:03:21.780 they've got my time

01:03:23.060 but books allowed me a chance to see

01:03:25.680 that there was other worlds and it was vital, absolutely vital. I just would not have got

01:03:31.980 through my upbringing without it. And so, yeah, and occasionally I'll meet people and

01:03:37.600 they'll be like, you know, never knew that you wrote and it's like, well, you don't kind

01:03:40.360 of blaze around the kids' home going, I'm a thespian, do you know what I mean? I wouldn't

01:03:46.100 even, you know, said that. Anyway, I was always, I think I was always telling a story one

01:03:55.320 way or another you know and I always wanted to do it but I had no idea how you actually met a writer

01:03:59.820 and even when I was 30 I hadn't really met a writer and then when I was in London when I was 33 and I

01:04:05.560 was doing my degree and they were like oh you know you're gonna get published and so I was just like

01:04:09.040 how you know I didn't know anybody at all um but I was always writing and I felt as much a writer

01:04:15.560 when I was you know cleaning four bars for years as I do now I just have people read it now in a

01:04:25.020 writing is what I am, it's who I am

01:04:27.460 and I'm very grateful

01:04:29.420 it's served more

01:04:31.060 purpose for me than

01:04:33.280 just stories

01:04:34.640 I'm really sorry to be the big bad lady

01:04:37.380 but we have to draw it to a close there 0.98

01:04:39.500 but Jenny is going to be

01:04:41.500 signing outside so you can speak to her

01:04:43.440 there and ask her any questions

01:04:45.280 that we couldn't fit in just now, we could go on

01:04:47.220 we often say this at events but

01:04:49.320 genuinely we could go on for quite

01:04:51.260 a while longer with this I think

01:04:53.140 Jenny Fagan

01:04:54.640 thank you so much

01:04:55.540 for coming and

01:04:56.060 talking to us

01:04:56.640 tonight

01:04:56.940 thank you

01:04:57.820 if you'd like to

01:05:02.380 learn more about

01:05:02.980 the Witches of

01:05:03.520 Scotland

01:05:03.820 please subscribe

01:05:05.060 wherever you get

01:05:05.760 your podcasts

01:05:06.540 sign up for our

01:05:08.040 mailing list

01:05:08.640 at www.witchesofscotland.com

01:05:12.680 to keep updated

01:05:13.660 with the campaign

01:05:14.480 on that site

01:05:16.080 you'll be able to

01:05:16.800 find how to link

01:05:17.540 with us

01:05:17.960 on Twitter

01:05:18.820 Facebook

01:05:19.600 and Instagram

01:05:23.140 Thank you.

Witches of Scotland - July 22, 2022

EPISODE 60 - JENNI FAGAN “HEX” RECORDED LIVE AT AYE WRITE, GLASGOW

Episode Stats

Transcript