Witches of Scotland - EPISODE 61 - ANNA DAY - STATUES AND MEMORIALISATION

00:00:00.160 Hi, I'm Clare Mitchell QC. Welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:05.220 I'm a lawyer who specialises in miscarriage of justice cases and we're bringing you this podcast

00:00:10.120 because we want to tell you about the women who were accused, prosecuted, convicted

00:00:15.240 and ultimately executed as witches in Scotland.

00:00:18.780 I'm Zoe Vendetotsi and I'm a writer who's always had an interest in the witches

00:00:22.780 and I feel that this dark mark against Scotland needs a reckoning.

00:00:26.500 The campaign Witches of Scotland wants three things.

00:00:29.600 Firstly, a pardon for all those convicted of witchcraft.

00:00:33.240 Secondly, an apology for all those who were accused as witches.

00:00:37.460 And finally, a national monument in recognition of all those who were affected by this terrible miscarriage of justice.

00:00:44.420 Over the forthcoming weeks, we'll be talking to a whole host of experts about the history and the modern day connections to the witches of Scotland.

00:00:53.680 Hello and welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:00:57.700 It's been a wee while since you've last heard from us.

00:01:00.040 We've been on our summer holidays where Claire and I variously travelled to a music festival in Hertfordshire.

00:01:07.300 Claire, do you remember that?

00:01:08.440 In the dim and distant past, I do.

00:01:10.340 I remember how naturally you took to the world of camping.

00:01:13.580 So we got invited to speak at Stand and Calling in Hertfordshire.

00:01:19.580 And it was Claire that went on stage and did the chit chat.

00:01:22.960 And it was really interesting.

00:01:24.420 It was a panel with Professor Marion Gibson.

00:01:26.460 and with a.k. Blakemore who's a writer and with Amy Kingsmill who is a performance artist that

00:01:34.040 you'll remember we interviewed quite some wee while ago about what she was doing with the

00:01:38.620 British Library so those four were in a panel talking about the witch trials and that sort of

00:01:44.200 thing and it was really cool it was really nice to get invited down there we traveled down in

00:01:48.900 Claire's camper van and it took quite quite a while to get there and then when we got there

00:01:54.420 the tent I was going to be sleeping in fell apart but luckily we managed to get it all sorted out

00:01:58.860 camping is not within my comfort zone but we we managed along very well didn't we Claire

00:02:04.160 we managed fine and I never thought the witches of Scotland would end up on a playlist with

00:02:10.380 primal scream at the top grandmaster flash and then right down at the bottom in tiny letters

00:02:17.600 witches very exciting and we got to see self-esteem which was

00:02:22.580 amazing oh my god they were so good and dry cleaning also so good and i got to have a chat 0.76

00:02:29.080 um with dom from dick and dom quite exciting anybody that has children that are maybe older

00:02:36.920 than say probably 14 or 15 which mine are will probably be familiar with dick and dom's work 0.71

00:02:43.980 from cbbc claire had no idea what was going on but anyway we should maybe move on that was very

00:02:49.660 exciting that was nice we've done another few few cool things and one that we can't really talk

00:02:54.940 about just now that's really irritating people do that I know but we'll maybe talk about that

00:02:58.780 later on in a few episodes time we went to visit something quite interesting at the Andrew Carnegie

00:03:05.260 Birthplace Museum didn't we in Dunfermline? Oh yeah absolutely we contacted the Andrew Carnegie

00:03:11.200 Museum and asked whether or not they had one of the two walking sticks that were made from

00:03:17.180 Lillis Adie's I don't want to say coffin because it wasn't a coffin it was just a box but when we

00:03:23.300 had Doug Spears on talking about the history of Lillis Adie he told us that two walking sticks

00:03:31.020 had been made from the box that she was kept in and we think that one of them was in Fife in fact

00:03:38.800 two of them were in Fife and we went along to see it and it was I mean it was so interesting yet at

00:03:45.740 the same time so terrible so there was an engraving on it which said where it came from which is

00:03:52.500 the box that Lillis AD was kept in and it was there just to go and see at the museum so we're

00:03:58.480 really really grateful to them for having us and we have discussed the possibility of doing some

00:04:05.980 work with them in the future so that would be great so we'll keep you updated in relation to that

00:04:10.720 yes yeah definitely this is quite a kind of a museum and galleries episode actually there's

00:04:16.540 quite a few different things that are going on that we're going to talk about in this episode

00:04:20.360 so it's quite nice quite fitting that we mention that at the top it sure can i just say that from

00:04:25.640 you know we plan this out every week so episode 61 are you are you not supposed to express some

00:04:33.140 general incredulity and can we please have it now yes i will do that i feel somewhat out of

00:04:39.640 practice with the podcast because it feels like it's been ages plus I'm back at work as a teacher

00:04:45.200 and my brain is quite mushy so bear with bear with me in this moment of my time of my life

00:04:51.920 but anyway Claire is this episode 61 today it is so episode 61 that means that in the time

00:05:04.620 that we have been doing this we have spoken to over 60 people that's a lot of people who'd have

00:05:13.140 my mental maths isn't tremendously brilliant but I reckon that we have maybe done 56 more episodes

00:05:21.760 than we intended to that's that's just about it which if we don't see too much about it David

00:05:28.200 might not notice yeah don't mention to him because I don't think he has noticed I think I think he

00:05:33.640 loves the content so much and loves to hear our voices so much yeah yeah probably not there we've

00:05:41.080 got so many other other things lined up it's not even gonna get to 64 and go okay that's that then

00:05:47.780 i know also don't mention that to him either okay okay let's just back away from this conversational

00:05:53.780 cul-de-sac as you described them back away okay you've got something that is in the news

00:06:02.180 don't you

00:06:03.260 this is in the news

00:06:08.400 okay

00:06:08.980 that was a sound effect

00:06:12.920 thanks I like that echo

00:06:14.760 so we have quite a lot in the news

00:06:17.520 this week the first and perhaps

00:06:19.500 the most urgent piece of in the news

00:06:21.480 is Shona Cowie got in contact

00:06:23.860 to see her debut fringe

00:06:25.580 production which is called

00:06:27.320 With the Devil's Assistance

00:06:28.720 is on right now

00:06:30.860 between the 22nd and the 28th of August

00:06:34.780 at 4.45 at the Scottish Storytelling Centre.

00:06:39.500 It's not on the 25th or the 27th.

00:06:42.740 Yes, thank you.

00:06:44.360 It's not on those days,

00:06:45.460 but we would highly recommend you get down to see it.

00:06:48.640 It's about Margaret Osborne,

00:06:50.460 a 17th century entrepreneur from Ayr 0.93

00:06:53.960 who was executed as a witch on the high street

00:06:56.740 for, inverted commas,

00:06:58.480 making a pact with the devil

00:06:59.960 to build a house in a night and for turning into a cat i mean sounds amazing she does it's that's 0.99

00:07:08.200 the kind of woman i'd like to have a night out with was she supposed to make the house as when

00:07:13.000 she was a cat or did she did she turn into a cat after she'd built the house actually i think these 0.99

00:07:19.540 are two separate events because i imagine opposable thumbs are better for building house

00:07:25.100 But I think what she might have done is she might have gone into a whirling dervish, you know, like a Tasmanian devil to build the house.

00:07:33.040 Like, I really think that was the story that she went round and round and round faster and faster.

00:07:38.340 Yeah. And the house was built. 0.78

00:07:40.460 The things that people, women mostly, were accused of with these trials and with the, you know, what they sort of, they copped to, obviously we know that they didn't really, are just so ludicrous.

00:07:52.980 you know it's hard to take that seriously at all you know the idea that you could be you could be

00:07:59.020 executed for you know supposedly turning into a cat I mean like absolutely crazy I'm making it

00:08:06.080 making a house in the night you know was there surely there'd be some sort of burden of evidence

00:08:10.880 Claire you know like here's you know people would say there was no house here and then here is the

00:08:15.360 house that was built you know like it's ridiculous again again it's just confession evidence

00:08:20.900 confession evidence is the most powerful form of evidence because it's a statement against

00:08:27.080 self-interest she will have confessed to making this house she'll have confessed to turning into

00:08:31.740 a cat and then of course turning back into a human again and that's all really that was needed

00:08:36.880 but surely surely if you've confessed to building a house in a night the house is there I think

00:08:45.780 conveniently taking it down again yeah conveniently it was taken down again and in a night

00:08:51.620 nonsense isn't it it's crazy yeah anyway so tell us more about about the performance well it's had

00:09:00.440 great rave reviews it's got four stars in the guardian the guardian says that it's shape-shifting

00:09:08.500 women links past and present and a show that slips confidently from light to keepy shade

00:09:13.780 Cowie makes unexpected connections between past and present. It has to do with women's marginalisation and repression, something reflected in the vast preponderance of women on her list of those executed for witchcraft around her native air.

00:09:28.260 And it also gets a great review from The Scotsman, another four stars, and The Scotsman picks up on the sort of modern relevance and part of the review says, more than just a well-sculpted story, the thematic thread she's weaving and tie in with some even more intriguing and relevant than the sum of its parts.

00:09:48.420 A Purposeful Examination of Feminism, Patriarchy and Capitalism Then and Now.

00:09:54.420 So I am really looking forward to get down and see that later on this week.

00:09:58.700 I'm going to try and go, I think, maybe on Sunday.

00:10:01.520 I think I might take my daughter down on Sunday.

00:10:03.960 Oh, that would be fab.

00:10:05.340 That sounds really fascinating.

00:10:07.140 And I think it is absolutely worth going to see,

00:10:09.680 even if you don't already have an interest in The Witch Child.

00:10:12.320 It sounds fantastic, but particularly if that is something you're interested in.

00:10:15.500 i think it'd be really fascinating to see a theatrical representation of what it was like

00:10:20.240 you know because it's one thing us talking about it or reading about it in books but to see somebody

00:10:25.120 acting out in a way that's like a non-naff non kind of sexy halloween or like oh you know the

00:10:31.720 tired tropes about witches i think would be really fascinating so i think i'm really hoping i can

00:10:37.720 swing it to go on sunday cool cool and if people are thinking of going to some other places we have

00:10:43.760 some museum news we do have museum news but this is like a subsection of in the news so now it's

00:10:49.520 museum news i don't really have a good sound effect all i can think of is like a creaking door

00:10:54.420 that's it and then that's you into the cataloguing area of stuff right the museum of abernethy which

00:11:07.200 claire has talked about before they are doing a witch hunt walk so if you're in the local area

00:11:12.500 go down there you get a map to walk around and see places related to the witch hunt both real

00:11:17.980 and from local folklore there are two different walks one is an hour and a half and the other is

00:11:24.560 an hour and 40 minutes that's quite good isn't it so you can do you could do two nice nice size

00:11:30.260 walks not too long but enough that you feel like you're getting your steps up and learning at the

00:11:35.140 same time yeah and it's really really good because it takes you to local areas including an area

00:11:41.240 where it was said that women as witches were executed

00:11:44.520 but it makes it clear in the blurb

00:11:47.720 that it's unlikely to be that certain place

00:11:51.040 but talks about it from folklore.

00:11:52.820 So it's interesting to examine how local areas

00:11:55.900 have kept stories about their witchcraft trial alive

00:11:59.400 through those sorts of things

00:12:00.740 and it's really good that they're telling the stories

00:12:04.300 of the folklore and they're also telling the actual history

00:12:07.860 insofar as they can make it out

00:12:09.360 which I think is really cool.

00:12:10.360 is it on for a while if you get a map you can go anytime because i suppose you're taking yourself

00:12:16.240 to the areas i don't know how long the map's available for but it's certainly up online

00:12:20.520 and you can look at it so i'll have to do that as well that'd be good okay and do we have some

00:12:28.520 more museum news we do we're now moving to nairn museum yeah there's a great event on this saturday

00:12:37.180 that's the 27th of August from one till three at Nairn Museum they're holding an opening event

00:12:42.860 to mark the the you know the exhibition that they've got on just now which is about Isabel

00:12:47.020 Gowdy. Julia Jeffery will be there to speak about the work on display from her collaborative art and

00:12:53.340 music project where the music is by Gillian Chadwick and then there'll be an opportunity

00:12:57.920 for questions afterwards. Julia says Highland folk it'd be lovely to see you if you can make

00:13:02.900 it along the exhibition also features fascinating artifacts in the museum's collection and runs

00:13:08.200 until the 31st of October so even if you can't make the launch on Saturday it's on there until

00:13:13.580 the end of October there's a whole series of tie-in events organized by the museum manager

00:13:18.840 Melissa Davies and also at the opening event there will be um some some chat as well from

00:13:25.260 Ash Williams who you'll remember was on episode 45 talking about his book about Isabel Gowdy

00:13:30.980 so the event the opening event is this saturday the 27th one till three but the museum show about

00:13:38.040 isabel gaudy is on until the 31st of october so i think that's really worth going along to have a

00:13:42.840 look we've seen some of the art and it's lovely and well lovely is entirely the wrong word it's

00:13:47.220 striking and it's definitely worth going and having a look at now they've got a facebook page

00:13:51.440 so you can hop on there to get further details about you know what to find and so on so i think

00:13:56.460 that sounds like a really great thing to go along and have a look at. So that is an end of the museum

00:14:02.760 news but I think it's really really great that at the moment there seems to be a real surge of

00:14:08.600 museum interest in the witchcraft trials so it's really really brilliant that people are engaging

00:14:14.120 and of course we have groups such as the Calder Witch Hunt who are now looking on to put another

00:14:19.140 event as well so if you have any local events that you're putting on that are witch hunt related

00:14:25.740 please do get in contact with us because we love to let people know about these things so they can

00:14:30.260 come and see it we're contacted regularly by people saying is there anything on or is there

00:14:35.220 anything in my local area so please do let us know and we'll give that a shout out fantastic

00:14:40.420 final in the news decades before the Salem witch trials the infamous Salem witch trials took place

00:14:47.900 in Massachusetts women were being tried convicted and executed for witchcraft and efforts are

00:14:55.460 now underway to have them exonerated you'll remember in the US system Zoe they can do what's

00:15:02.420 called exoneration rather than pardon we don't have that open to us so sometimes people get

00:15:08.200 confused by that because they've seen American films and they think that we have that but we

00:15:12.900 don't have that indeed and Americans sometimes get in contact saying you're asking for the wrong

00:15:17.780 thing you need to ask for an exoneration but sadly we don't have that in our system so a pardon is

00:15:23.260 the best thing that we can get. We'll talk about that in a minute. But at the moment, efforts are

00:15:27.900 underway to have these people exonerated. Again, they were mostly women. To find out more about

00:15:33.020 that, follow the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project. You'll be able to find that

00:15:38.540 at ctwitchhunt on Twitter. And they currently have a change.org petition, which you can sign to show

00:15:45.460 your support. Their Twitter page, if you follow them, has lots of original documents from the

00:15:50.800 trials so it's really interesting if a bit difficult and challenging for the old eyesight

00:15:55.860 at least my eyesight to try and read what is written there but it's very interesting. We've

00:16:02.180 also been in contact with them and in fact they say they're delighted to come and speak to us

00:16:06.180 about their project so hopefully we'll have them on fairly soon in the long list of people that we

00:16:12.220 have still to speak to but speaking of pardon Zoe yes it's very very important that we flag this up

00:16:22.080 to our listeners just now because time is coming along with the public consultation document that

00:16:27.880 MSP Natalie Dawn has put forward it's really really important that people get involved with that

00:16:34.380 and then give their own answers to consultation it only takes a couple of minutes you need to

00:16:39.680 just add your name to those who think that obtaining a legislative pardon for those

00:16:43.920 convicted of witchcraft is a good thing if you listen to the podcast and agree with us please

00:16:49.460 do get involved with signing the consultation just remember that it's not just about this 0.56

00:16:55.100 happening hundreds of years in the past it's got a modern relevance as we know with the work that

00:16:59.440 leo igway's done so these are things that are happening now it's still really relevant so

00:17:04.440 please do share tell people about it so we have as many people as possible supporting it because

00:17:09.480 the more support we have the more likely we are to have success in moving the bill forward it

00:17:14.160 doesn't take much to do but it could really have a big impact and it's so important to so many of us

00:17:19.960 yeah it's only a wee bit of effort to restore the names of those killed and bring what posthumous

00:17:26.880 justice we can and we've spoken many times when people said what's the point they're dead it makes

00:17:31.280 no difference the point is that if we can actually say what we did to these people was wrong we can

00:17:37.840 make it clear that at least even in the 21st century we accept that what happened to these

00:17:43.180 people was wrong and their names can be cleared and I think that's still every bit as important

00:17:49.080 and as you've said Zoe it also helps campaigners who do incredible work like Leo Igwe so please

00:17:55.700 on all our socials Twitter, Insta, Facebook etc we've got links to the public consultation document

00:18:02.580 please do find them and also if you can if you think any of your friends or family would be

00:18:08.440 interested in it please share share share so those people can have an opportunity to have their say

00:18:14.900 as well. Fantastic okay so going back to the women and men but on this occasion the women 0.61

00:18:21.860 that were accused of being witches let's bring our focus back to some people that were involved

00:18:28.240 and I believe Nairn clear this week.

00:18:30.680 Yeah, because we were speaking earlier on

00:18:33.000 about Nairn Museum

00:18:34.060 and the most famous, inverted commas,

00:18:36.920 witch Isabel Gowdy,

00:18:38.760 there aren't records for Isabel Gowdy

00:18:41.000 in the same way as there are for some other people.

00:18:44.700 There is the confession of Isabel Gowdy,

00:18:47.140 but not the same court records.

00:18:49.800 And there have indeed even been questions

00:18:51.880 about whether Isabel Gowdy was a real person.

00:18:55.260 No doubt when we go to Nairn,

00:18:57.100 they'll be able to tell us whether or not she was or wasn't. But what I thought I would do is I would

00:19:01.980 look at the people from Nairn who were accused of witchcraft and bring their names forward

00:19:09.460 today for people. Now I found two people that were accused in the parish of Nairn. The cases

00:19:17.020 appear to be interrelated. There's very little information about both of them. The first one

00:19:23.060 is Agnes McGilverich. There was a commission to try her on the 12th June 1662 that was given by 0.91

00:19:33.280 the Privy Council who granted permission to prosecute and no less than 10 commissioners

00:19:39.740 were involved in her case and the records show the names of all those commissioners which we

00:19:45.100 won't bear repeating here. And the other person in an interconnected case, her name was Agnes

00:19:51.740 Nick Ian Vane. I think that's the way to pronounce my best pronunciation. I'm sorry if it's

00:19:57.740 wrong. Again, the request for a warrant to prosecute her came from the Privy Council and

00:20:04.640 it granted that on the 12th of June 1662. It looks like both cases were interrelated. Possibly

00:20:12.620 one person confessed and said the other was a witch and that person confessed as well. You know,

00:20:18.180 one of those sorts of interrelated cases. And sadly, we don't have any information as to what

00:20:25.120 happened at the trial. But today we remember those two women, Agnes McGilveridge and Agnes

00:20:30.700 Nick-Ean Veen, as people who were women and not witches. So we remember them. And today we move

00:20:38.840 on to introduce our guest for this episode, who has been working on a project to really help people

00:20:46.760 to remember women particularly and there are also some instances of people that have been

00:20:52.620 accused of witches as well. So our guest today is Anna Day who is Cultural Public Programme Manager

00:20:58.600 at Perth and Kinross Council. Her job really is to develop new cultural programmes in Perth which

00:21:04.380 are to engage communities and creatives and she's also managing the opening programme around the

00:21:09.420 new City Hall project for 2024. So Anna comes from a really interesting background with lots of

00:21:15.540 different cultural offerings and this is what she's working on just now and there's a project

00:21:19.940 that we're going to talk to her about today so without any further ado welcome anna day

00:21:25.000 i'm delighted to welcome to the podcast today our very good friend anna day who's going to talk to

00:21:36.700 us about a project she's been doing recently in her role so first of all anna welcome to the

00:21:41.440 podcast. I'm delighted to be here thank you for having me. Thanks for coming on. Now can you tell

00:21:47.380 us what your role is and then maybe tell us a wee bit about your project and why that links to our

00:21:52.960 campaign. So I work for Perth and Conros Council and my role really started just a few weeks before

00:22:00.380 Covid. We've got a new museum opening in 2024 in the middle of town and my role is to take all the

00:22:07.400 amazing stories that are inside the museum and tell them outside that's where it started and when

00:22:13.300 COVID hit obviously everything was delayed so I started you know trying to gather the stories of

00:22:18.760 Perth and Kinross this is the Scottish government year of Scottish stories and what I found was

00:22:24.520 that there are a lot of men very visible within Perth and Kinross or Perth in particular in the

00:22:30.500 street names in the buildings as with lots of cities but the women's stories were pretty hidden

00:22:36.520 and there's some amazing women's stories so this project kind of spoke to both the need to tell

00:22:43.800 those women's stories and to start to tell people what's going to be in this new museum so we have

00:22:50.540 a project called Raise the Roof and 20 community groups across Perth and Kinross were working

00:22:57.080 they were given a list of 50 stories which was quite difficult for me because I really wanted

00:23:02.600 some of these women to be picked on that list of 50 and they weren't so some of the great stories

00:23:07.520 just didn't make it to the final round people like Jessie Mann who's one of the first sort of 0.98

00:23:14.300 female photographers I thought we could do a great project around that but she didn't get picked it

00:23:18.920 was up to the community groups so we ended up with 20 stories 20 community groups they've been

00:23:24.100 working with an artist they've been researching the stories really getting into them there's a

00:23:29.820 group in Kinross who have been to visit the woman's grave they've tracked down her ancestors

00:23:35.360 they've you know really got into it so the different groups have all been working on these

00:23:39.980 projects then they handed over their information to an artist called Vanessa Lawrence who created

00:23:46.400 wire sculptures of each of them and again in Perth and Kinross as in lots of places there's very very

00:23:53.520 few statues of women there's very few places there is one of the fair maid on the high street

00:23:58.500 but there's very few places you can go and celebrate the stories of women so we felt this

00:24:03.500 was important that they were visible throughout the city and the thing I love about these statues

00:24:09.660 is you can choose to look through them because they're wire you know you can choose almost not

00:24:14.960 to see them or you can choose to you know go and interact with them and read the stories and you

00:24:21.020 know really start to understand women's history which really felt like a reflection of how women

00:24:26.220 are seen so I think that's the reason I guess I'm here today is because two of the stories that were

00:24:32.360 picked were stories about women who were accused of witchcraft both of the stories were picked one

00:24:38.340 I think probably on a locality basis one of the witches the woman accused of witchcraft called

00:24:43.820 the Witch of Monzi and it was a local group there who chose her and went to find out about her story

00:24:51.260 they actually found she supposedly was betrayed by the villagers was accused of being a witch and

00:24:59.500 you know and had been a healer and had been treating people all her life and when it came

00:25:05.980 to the trial the villagers turned against her and where they had been treated they claimed they

00:25:11.800 hadn't and the only person who stood up for her was the laird and she gave him a precious stone

00:25:17.420 which they still have to this day so the group have like interacted and gone and found out and

00:25:23.880 you can go the place where she was burnt she was burnt in the end at Castle Monsey and you can go

00:25:30.080 and see Kate McNiven or Kate McNiven as lots of ways of spelling her name her stone and there is

00:25:36.340 you know it's doubtful whether the entire story happened in exactly the way that it is recorded

00:25:42.260 as with many of these stories there is a possibility that her story actually is

00:25:48.300 amalgamation of the stories of lots of witches and she's almost used as a talisman for

00:25:53.340 those stories so yeah so there's her story and then there's Bessie Wright who actually she was

00:25:59.140 accused either two or three times it differs in different books but wasn't ever actually

00:26:04.840 found guilty which is quite bonkers and because obviously that's fairly rare so her healing book

00:26:14.120 was taken from her by the church of scotland who were not her biggest fans it has to be said and

00:26:19.040 she went through two or three trials i think she was found guilty once but was not it was not

00:26:24.660 punished she was put in jail and then her son paid a bail to get her out which is an unusual

00:26:30.420 story for a woman accused of witchcraft so Bessie's statue is there as well so it's a real

00:26:38.140 mix of people but there are those women accused of witchcraft within the stories. It's brilliant

00:26:44.240 Anna I mean I've not been to it yet but I've looked at the map that you've got and there's so

00:26:50.340 many fantastic different stories of women and what you said earlier on about the fact that there were

00:26:55.940 so many more stories you wanted to tell that's exactly what Sarah Sheridan said when she wrote

00:27:01.460 the book where are the women because she actually thought am I going to be able to fill a book with

00:27:06.220 stories are we going to be able to find enough stories and she said by the end she was like so

00:27:10.800 sad and I think she said her mantra was no woman left behind as she tried to cram as many stories

00:27:17.400 of work into the book as she possibly could so it's brilliant that you've managed to get so many

00:27:23.460 and there are there are many but maybe there's time for more why do you think that it's important

00:27:29.400 to have statues reflecting things that women have done I think it's about visibility of stories so

00:27:36.440 I think it's a really easy way for stories to be visible as through a statue because they tend to

00:27:42.120 be in places where people pass all the time so it's just it's a shortcut almost being you know

00:27:48.760 a way to tell people more about a certain person or about a moment in time I have quite a lot of

00:27:54.600 feelings about memorials and statues so I do feel they should be specific to a person

00:27:59.540 and I think the memorials and statues that are for you know women who died in a place or something

00:28:07.200 tell one particular story but they don't speak to that sort of universal story of struggle or women

00:28:12.460 or you know what I hope with the women that we've got and there are women in this trail apart from

00:28:20.520 the two that I've mentioned who are alive we've got Eve Muirhead who's obviously the Olympian

00:28:24.820 and then we've got people like the goddess Kaliak who was the original which some say

00:28:29.300 but you know who is a mythological being so there's a real mix in there but I hope that

00:28:36.000 people take something from this from each of those stories in particular so rather than being a story

00:28:41.300 of place you know uh if they're about you know the herring women or if they're about you know

00:28:46.960 women who've done a particular thing they're a bit more universal so I think memorials are that

00:28:52.440 shortcut to storytelling I think they are really visible and I think it's important even in this

00:28:58.020 day and age that people see that equality and see women being celebrated in a really visible sense

00:29:04.760 as much as they see the old bloke on the horse um or the warmonger whoever it is that they are

00:29:10.740 looking at those statues of absolutely that was like one of the reasons that we kicked off the

00:29:15.500 campaign Anna when I was standing in Prince's Street Gardens and I was looking around thinking

00:29:19.840 there isn't one named woman here we've got a named dog and a named bear but literally no woman and

00:29:26.260 this is one of Edinburgh's most prominent public spaces there was a statue of I think an unnamed

00:29:32.760 woman but it was a sort of an image of a woman portraying something as a generality yeah and I

00:29:39.500 just thought this is bizarre that we don't have this reflection in public life so I'm just so

00:29:46.040 delighted and can't wait to get round to seeing it and I think that's a general reflection of

00:29:51.680 you know any history book or any you know history is written by men is you know a very true story

00:29:59.140 so I think it's a reflection of the inequality of visibility of women generally I think and I have

00:30:08.020 not checked this but there's a very sort of younger creative cultural person working in

00:30:14.660 Perth in Kinross who has been really fighting for more prominence of women in museums and in the city

00:30:23.840 and she had said some time Taylor Wagoner is her name and she had said that there are more statues

00:30:31.540 of fish than women in perth so i haven't gone around and counted but it feels like that's

00:30:38.340 entirely possible i wouldn't be surprised by that at all you know just hi taylor as well we interact

00:30:44.140 with taylor as witches of scotland yeah hi certainly as a woman moving through the world

00:30:50.140 and it's not just unique to this country and certainly when i've been in in north america

00:30:54.500 it's been the same sort of thing there it's it's men that you tend to see everywhere and we've

00:30:58.540 talked about this so many times but it's very important to mark like you know women and men

00:31:04.100 obviously in our history in the past you know and that's that's a really big part of our campaign is

00:31:08.580 that you need to learn from the past to make sure that in the future that you're making you know as

00:31:13.320 humans we're making better choices and that we understand things that have gone before and Anna

00:31:17.700 I know that you in your family in your background that there's something that's quite key to your

00:31:23.080 family that you've marked if you want to talk about that a wee bit. So yeah I mean we are a

00:31:27.880 family descended from German Jewish refugees who left my grandparents actually knew each other

00:31:36.120 they were childhood sweethearts so they left Germany about the same time before war broke out

00:31:43.320 but and it's a very it's a very long family history so my grandfather was the ambassador

00:31:52.360 to Estonia and what he did was he took Estonian nationality for the family which meant that they

00:31:58.820 could escape but it also meant that his son my grandmother's young brother had to join the

00:32:05.100 Estonian army and was never heard of again by any of the family as an interesting aside my great

00:32:12.420 grandfather also did not take his wife did not give her one of the four passports took his mistress

00:32:17.300 which was a Anna family shopper why have you not written that novel

00:32:23.780 so and they stayed together him and the the girlfriend and my gran did eventually build

00:32:32.320 rebuild a relationship with her stepmother and dad which I always think was kind of amazing 0.98

00:32:37.540 because I'm not sure I would have anyway hang on what happened to your actual gran then your great 0.58

00:32:42.160 my gran so she made her own way over but was they were very wealthy family in germany and 0.53

00:32:47.860 obviously were having to build from nothing and she made her way over and sadly killed herself

00:32:54.920 oh anna that's so awful with the children in the proximity as a kind of she's oh i know family uh

00:33:04.440 family joys so yes so she made it her way over to england and then did not like the life of poverty

00:33:13.020 that was then ahead of her and also had been left by her husband and it was her child that had then

00:33:19.420 been put into the estonian army yeah and never heard of him again yeah so that'd be your great

00:33:24.400 uncle yeah right okay so he was so they were a very wealthy family in cologne and my they were

00:33:33.300 contacted my mum and dad were contacted recently by my uncle great uncle Carlos he was called

00:33:40.600 his school and they had planned a memorial so they do the things called stumbling stones and

00:33:47.620 they're essentially like cobbles but each one gives the name of a Jew who has died or has not 0.63

00:33:54.960 they don't know what's happened to them and it's they're placed on streets and they're just a

00:33:59.300 reminders you walk past that street of what has happened and it was an artist I can't remember the

00:34:04.620 name of the artist who started this and it's now become very popular way to memorialize people who

00:34:12.220 were lost especially he was actually down in their records as having died at Auschwitz but we don't

00:34:17.840 think that's true but that was that was how they had recorded it but we don't know what happened

00:34:23.780 to him but he you know we assume that he did not make it out of Estonia whether he'd have ever been

00:34:28.780 able to find anyone but the stumbling stones are really interesting because they are such a part

00:34:34.000 of everyday life and you do find them across Germany and they are you know they replace cobbles

00:34:39.120 and you know it's an interesting way of just that reminder of how badly people were treated

00:34:46.780 and I think that warning not to let it happen ever again whether you can argue that that has

00:34:54.300 worked or not worked but I think it you know you need to have these memorials you need to have

00:34:59.280 reminders that things can go very badly wrong and how do we how do we stop that from happening again

00:35:06.760 how do we keep those people in mind who died a result of those actions and I thank you so much

00:35:13.680 for sharing that with us particularly the shock if you've seen the look of shock on both of our

00:35:18.700 faces when you said his mistress but I think that I mean that's such a beautiful idea memorializing

00:35:25.700 people in that way and Zoe and I have talked about how to try and memorialize those people that were

00:35:31.160 killed in the witchcraft trials and that would seem like a lovely way just putting part of it

00:35:37.140 in everyday life so that people see those things I mean obviously not to copy the idea but

00:35:42.100 it just shows that those people who can do these kind of things the moralization etc

00:35:48.020 can think that way you can think outside the box and I think that's particularly for Zoe that's

00:35:52.840 something that she's really keen on seeing for memorialization for those that were killed of

00:35:57.440 witchcraft I love the fact that it's quite sort of ordinary and kind of quotidian and it's just

00:36:02.340 in everyday life but it stays that kind of like the sort of the stone in your shoe that it just

00:36:07.180 keeps reminding you that that that happened I think that's so incredibly important I think

00:36:11.800 that's really cool i like that and it's really not it's not flashy either you know no no not

00:36:18.700 whitewashing history either it's not you know here's a you know like a just a sad image of a

00:36:24.380 child which of course has got its place too but that the fact that these were just ordinary people

00:36:28.700 that would have walked along these streets i love that i think that's a great idea and so have you

00:36:33.120 given your authority if that was what was being asked for to have yeah and there was a ceremony

00:36:39.160 last October-ish last year that quite a lot of the family we actually had COVID so we did not go

00:36:46.260 but quite a lot of the family went and the school showed us around what would have been his school

00:36:52.420 and my grandparents house is still there and they met the kid well he obviously is not a kid now he

00:37:01.640 was a kid at the time who was their driver I think it was so it was really interesting but

00:37:08.000 carlos didn't love school and didn't love cologne they had a house in the country that he was much

00:37:13.460 keener on that they went to see as well and he was quite a gentle kid who was not happy that he

00:37:19.960 was going to be sent off to the estonian army funnily enough oh wee fella i know yeah but

00:37:27.160 that's lovely though that he's been marked and that he is a he's a presence in in your mind and

00:37:32.000 in your kids minds as well you know that that's that's somebody that is a relative and a forebear

00:37:36.520 of yours that you've you've marked in that way I think that's really respectful like I'm so glad

00:37:41.160 it's children that are getting involved in it because we are so pleased when people contact us

00:37:46.740 to ask in fact people have asked us a number of occasions now Zoe can we do a child friendly

00:37:51.580 podcast I'm not sure I'm not sure what that would be but it's so good that the idea that we're

00:37:58.080 teaching children about this I think it's absolutely vital that they get to hear our history

00:38:03.740 not just through the forms of kings and queens and battles although they have their place and

00:38:08.120 are important in their own way but hear the story of everyday people and how things can go well

00:38:13.300 and equally as importantly how things can go really badly yeah I think so and then and I think

00:38:19.840 you know children these days certainly my experience with my own children is have really

00:38:24.980 struggled with the history that they are taught because so little of it feels like there's a huge

00:38:31.100 relevance to the lives they live now whereas I think stories like these especially for young

00:38:36.260 women you know really do feel like they are teaching them something that they can take

00:38:43.040 something away from them so I think that is absolutely true I think schools don't do the 1.00

00:38:47.640 greatest job in this curriculum that my kids are learning is exactly the same curriculum I was

00:38:53.180 learning quite a few years ago you know that feels like it needs to move I think it's very

00:38:58.400 much down to individual history teachers that have passions and we've certainly seen that there

00:39:03.020 are some teachers in Scotland who for example are really interested in the witch hunts so they've

00:39:08.420 they've developed resources that sound brilliant and it looks like the kids are incredibly engaged

00:39:12.220 with what they're doing and there was that event recently in the area south of Edinburgh that you

00:39:18.120 went to Claire was it Peebles? West Calder it was fantastic. West Calder where the kids have

00:39:24.040 generated the most amazing artwork and I'm not sure whether it was a collaboration between

00:39:28.520 art teachers and history teachers or if it was something in the community I'm not sure but

00:39:32.380 the work was amazing that we saw online for it so it's you know it's finding things that kids

00:39:37.240 engage with and I think that the idea that ordinary people so not as Claire said not kings

00:39:42.520 and queens but ordinary people getting swept up and being really involved in things whether for

00:39:47.580 good or for bad is I reckon the key is you know so I really like this initiative that you're doing

00:39:52.500 with the stories because people of all ages are going to pass them and go what's that and engage

00:39:57.380 with it and that's what we would hope for when we get the state memorial for the witches which

00:40:02.360 will happen at some point hopefully when is the trail on until it is on until probably i say

00:40:10.280 probably because i'll need to take all the statues away and it is on until the start of september 1.00

00:40:17.160 but then the all of the women are going to come together in my head they're going to be marching 0.87

00:40:23.580 down the high street of Perth towards the council buildings in a mad takeover but I haven't quite

00:40:29.340 had permission for that yet but they will all be coming together for the mod which is happening

00:40:34.480 in October and all their stories are going to be translated into Gaelic so that they have those

00:40:40.880 connections back to Gaelic and to the people who are coming from different areas so they can learn

00:40:46.520 a bit more about them as well fabulous brilliant so people have got what's left of august to go

00:40:53.060 and have a look and they're just they're just dotted around per city center dotted around

00:40:57.240 per city center there are maps available from tourist information from the museum pretty much

00:41:03.520 from every hotel in the city center and roundabout as well or they all have qr code if you are

00:41:10.040 technically illiterate then you can uh ping your qr code and the story will pop up and on the

00:41:17.640 website just because there's so little space on the map there's more information about each woman

00:41:22.160 and there's information about the community groups as well who were who chose the woman and

00:41:28.000 the work that they've been doing with artists locally as well i will be an exhibition of that

00:41:32.960 as well it's such a great idea anna and it's also something that people could do their own kind of

00:41:38.120 variations on in other communities you know i'd love to see something like that happening across

00:41:43.240 scotland you know you just see all these different people and it'd be so great to see people

00:41:48.780 connecting because they they will all of them will have descendants you know and you might even know

00:41:54.320 that you're descended from this amazing you know or interesting person so yeah that'd be great so

00:41:59.240 we'll put some images up we'll link on our twitter and our other social media and i would encourage

00:42:05.140 people, including myself and Clare, we need to go along and have a day out in Perth and go

00:42:08.860 Absolutely, absolutely. There's loads going on in Perth, there's also a great exhibition in Perth

00:42:16.480 Museum and Art Gallery called Sin, which has a real mix of images, some very 15th century art

00:42:25.680 through to very modern art, and does talk about sin and the idea of nudity and art and how women

00:42:33.820 have been objectified so that's worth if you're going through anyway definitely check that out

00:42:39.260 as well. For all of those that are staycationers that sounds like an absolute perfect day out in

00:42:44.040 Perth. Absolutely. Fantastic. Anna thank you so much. No problem it's lovely to talk to you both

00:42:51.800 and I hope to see you soon. We really enjoyed it and thanks so much for sharing including

00:42:57.380 your own family history. Bye now. Thank you. Bye.

00:43:03.820 thanks so much for listening to this week's 61st episode thanks for carrying on in this

00:43:14.860 enormous journey that we appear to have all been struck to so thank you so much

00:43:20.420 we hope you're still enjoying it please do get in touch with us and let us know if there's

00:43:25.200 anything else you'd like us to cover yeah there are a lot of people getting in contact with us

00:43:29.960 And I'm taking down scrupulous notes, Zoe, about various things we want to talk to you about.

00:43:34.920 So lots more in the next episode.

00:43:36.880 And now we're back off our holidays.

00:43:39.000 Hopefully our next episode will be in another fortnight's time.

00:43:42.620 Well, almost three weeks time because this is midweek, but just two and a half weeks.

00:43:47.580 So we really, really look forward to speaking to you more and engaging with you.

00:43:51.460 As Zoe has said, if you want to catch us, it's probably best trying to catch us on Twitter or Facebook.

00:43:57.740 and also we're on insta as well if you want to speak to us there zoe how are things going with

00:44:03.160 you how are the ravens how are the raccoons well they're just back from hawaii and they were all

00:44:10.460 on their holidays they wanted to go to aganapa but i was like guys not after last time so you

00:44:16.220 went for a slightly classier holiday this time it was fine all good and they're quite relaxed and

00:44:21.320 ready to take on the next stage of their training see when you said i am apa i had immediately a

00:44:26.340 visual picture of two raccoons with glow sticks like that's essentially what started the trouble

00:44:32.640 last time is that what happened yeah well they ended up with their glow sticks at the airport

00:44:37.400 and let me tell you it was not helpful for landing planes let's put it that way anyway anyway that's

00:44:45.080 nothing to do with what we're here to talk about so and also you know i can't really talk about it

00:44:48.620 anyway so thanks for joining us this week please be in touch please please please sign the

00:44:54.040 consultation, share it as widely as you can because time is running out and it's really,

00:44:58.180 really important. Yeah, share, share, share. Thanks. Bye. Bye.

00:45:09.220 If you'd like to learn more about the Witches of Scotland, please subscribe wherever you get your

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00:45:27.380 and Instagram.

Witches of Scotland - August 23, 2022

EPISODE 61 - ANNA DAY - STATUES AND MEMORIALISATION

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