Witches of Scotland - EPISODE 67 DR ANDREW SNEDDON WITCHES OF IRELAND

00:00:00.960 I am Clare Mitchell, Doctor of Laws and King's Council.

00:00:04.080 And I am Zoe Vendetotsi, Doctor of Laws, Teacher and Writer.

00:00:07.760 On the 8th of March 2020, International Women's Day,

00:00:11.120 we launched the Feminist Witches of Scotland campaign.

00:00:13.920 The Witchcraft Act, enforced between 1563 and 1736,

00:00:19.360 saw thousands of people, mostly women,

00:00:22.080 accused and executed as witches in Scotland

00:00:25.040 in the country's biggest and most brutal miscarriage of justice.

00:00:28.880 Our campaign had three aims. To get a formal state apology for those accused of witchcraft,

00:00:34.560 to obtain a pardon for all those convicted, and to get a national memorial to remember

00:00:39.360 those involved in the Witchcraft Act. On International Women's Day 2022, the first

00:00:45.040 of our aims was realised when First Minister Nicola Sturgeon issued a formal state apology

00:00:49.600 to those accused as witches. The first formal state apology ever. We are currently working

00:00:54.320 with politicians to ensure there's legislation passed to pardon those accused as witches,

00:00:58.880 to change their status from convicted witches to those who ought never to have been prosecuted.

00:01:04.160 We continue our work to obtain a national monument so those who suffered will never be forgotten.

00:01:09.040 Join us as we speak to the experts on the witchcraft trials both here in Scotland and further

00:01:13.680 abroad as we explore the history of women in Scotland and continue the cultural conversation

00:01:18.720 of what it means to be a woman. Hello and welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:01:25.940 Claire, what episode is this one? This is episode 67 Zoe and those who are like been following us

00:01:34.820 every week might just have noticed that we haven't managed to get this in under the two-week limit

00:01:40.580 once again. I'm interpreting time very very loosely at the moment so I'm just in the moment

00:01:47.280 Claire you know me I'm just in the moment and if the moment is you tell me to turn up in front of

00:01:53.020 my computer to record then I just do it oh no see the thing is I listen to other podcasts and like

00:01:59.220 when they're not there on the appointed day I do splitter I gave them up started recording

00:02:04.580 there's no one else to listen to but us no I still give my time to the occasional podcast

00:02:11.120 and like when it's not there when I think it should be there I'm quite annoyed yeah

00:02:17.040 yeah wow anyway it's only you and me so it's just you know it's when a busy single mother of three

00:02:24.180 is trying to get her life back on the tracks and a hard-bitten tub lawyer who's doing the i don't 0.70

00:02:30.320 know i'm doing an american accent for this when when those two women have got time do you think 0.93

00:02:35.360 do you think it's kind of like we're the cagney and lacy of the podcast world yeah i love that 0.65

00:02:40.160 but that means that i'm the sort of the downtrodden dark haired one oh no you see i thought you were

00:02:44.440 going to be the oh because she's the mother she's the mother yeah but then that would make the

00:02:50.100 alcoholic blonde one if the cap fits clear ladies and gentlemen i'm only joking i'm only joking i'm

00:02:59.440 not impugning your reputation at all not an alcoholic good to definitely not you

00:03:04.560 my solicitor i am your solicitor well no there would definitely be a conflict

00:03:14.380 anywho anywho yeah let's stop talking about suing you yes that's very dangerous path to go down

00:03:22.040 so claire today we've got a very interesting um person on as usual a very interesting interviewee

00:03:29.540 But before that, just wondering, just wondering, has anything exciting been happening in the world?

00:03:41.000 News!

00:03:42.520 We need to work on that tune amongst everything else. 0.99

00:03:45.660 Zoe's got her hands up to her face like Edward Munch's The Scream.

00:03:50.400 I'm a little bit screamy on that one. But has anything been happening?

00:03:53.900 yeah lots is happening um first of all as you know zoe we've been invited to another book festival

00:04:00.860 yes now i'm excited about this because i've never been to this one before but i've heard much about

00:04:05.560 it so we were invited to come to or go to wigton festival in april at the end of april i think

00:04:12.420 maybe the 29th and 30th we're going down there and that'll be really nice that'll be good to do

00:04:17.420 i'm looking forward to that one we'll give you a shout out about that um this isn't so much a news

00:04:22.720 thing but we just want to give a shout out a few of our listeners have been sending in as they

00:04:28.520 have said pictures of the mugs and t-shirts and hoodies that they've been wearing and we just

00:04:36.180 want to give a particular shout out to Pauline Kilgour I think that's how it's pronounced the

00:04:41.040 reason for that is she has taken our hoodie south of the border down to England and she says if she

00:04:48.540 hears any stories of witchcraft trials down there she'll give us a shout out on the way back up so

00:04:53.520 she sent us a photograph of her proud hoodie on her train on the way down to london which was great

00:04:58.180 so we'll post up that so people can see it very cool and then also there's somebody from abroad

00:05:05.500 who's been in touch yeah uh-huh so that's beth marrick from chicago the place not the musical

00:05:13.240 claire wrote that down i had to read that out loud i like that that could have been any side

00:05:19.560 voice that did that bit if there was any any issue that people thought that we were working closely

00:05:25.360 with musical theater just to be clear we've not written a musical yet although claire maybe we

00:05:30.480 should add that to the things that we're doing she is from chicago america okay and she's got

00:05:35.560 in contact with us to let us know that the bbc are doing a documentary about the bridget bishop

00:05:40.300 trial called cry innocent that's a trial over in salem and when i saw that i was like oh good i

00:05:46.360 really look forward to that and then i thought why is the bbc going all the way over to salem once

00:05:51.860 again to do a tv show about the trials that happened there when we have an incredible scene

00:05:58.400 of witchcraft trials here and could tell the story of some of the women so thanks to beth for getting

00:06:04.300 in contact and it's not to say i won't look forward to it and definitely watch it i just

00:06:08.960 kind of thought are you not missing a chance yeah it's strange well we'll see we'll see what

00:06:14.760 happens on that one but I'm sure it'll be fascinating anyway and then we've also had

00:06:18.820 somebody else get in touch with us from abroad to tell us to tell us a really interesting story

00:06:25.380 which I'm going to hand over to you to talk about Clare yes so Kelly Spence Towson and her daughter

00:06:32.780 Holly Townsend, Kelly has got in contact with us to tell us something really quite exciting.

00:06:39.540 She is from Ontario, Canada, so another one of our international listeners, and she says that

00:06:44.960 she has traced her father's ancestors back to the 10th great-grandfather born in 1575 in Bursay

00:06:55.000 Parish Orkney. One of his sons, i.e. the ninth great-grandfather, was John Spence, who was

00:07:05.760 married to Maribel Cooper. Now, that's very interesting for us because Maribel Cooper was

00:07:13.940 accused of witchcraft, and we're going to talk more about her today later. So, what happened was

00:07:21.640 that she has been able to trace her lineage right down to herself and as far as I'm aware

00:07:28.660 that's the first person that's able to trace direct lineage we're also being contacted with

00:07:37.220 someone else who says they can do it and that's Melissa Fox that we really dearly hope to be able

00:07:42.540 to get in contact with and chat to as well but one of the things about the records in Orkney is

00:07:48.980 they're really amazing. The archivist in the Orkney Library says that if you're ever going up

00:07:55.120 there, if you just give her a day or so's notice, obviously the better notice the better, she would

00:08:01.600 be able to get out for you the details of the witchcraft trials if you want to look at them

00:08:05.680 and actually look at the documents. But I remember when I was up there speaking to people about the

00:08:10.820 witchcraft trials, their archive is so full and so detailed. So it appears that somebody has been

00:08:17.600 able to trace their lineage back from john spends of that time right through 10 generations

00:08:25.060 to now kelly and her daughter holly living in canada so that's absolutely amazing i think a

00:08:32.520 big part of that must be because they emigrated so the paperwork is so much better because they

00:08:38.160 left scotland and then there'll be the sort of the manifest for traveling and then you know in

00:08:43.720 an emigration story i think there's always much more sort of documentation and people remember

00:08:48.600 things in the same in a different way to how if you just stay in one country we've had a few people

00:08:52.720 in scotland get in touch us to say they've traced their families back but having spoken to um

00:08:58.360 scottish archivists they're not sure whether there really is the documentation for that and actually

00:09:02.840 we've got a previous guest who has a contact who's really really good on this who's going to come on

00:09:07.540 the show in the future so we'll do a special how to trace your family back if it's possible

00:09:12.340 episode at some point the problem in scotland of course is that you know there are so many names

00:09:19.660 that are so common to scotland and we know that names are often written down incorrectly and

00:09:25.520 spelled differently and you may have like a whole bunch of for example one of my mum's side of the

00:09:31.720 family names is kavanagh and there are lots of kavanagh's about but we're not necessarily all

00:09:36.340 related to each other not Kavanaugh KC no we don't talk about that we're Kavanaugh with a C

00:09:42.800 I think Kavanaugh QC was K I think maybe but um but I think also that's something that's changed

00:09:48.300 the spelling's changed over time too so I think that people sometimes think well my name is you

00:09:53.440 know McRae or Campbell and we think we're roughly from this area in Fife and there is a Campbell

00:10:00.320 that was accused then but for my money you'd have to be really able to absolutely trace it back

00:10:06.480 to prove without a shadow of a doubt that it definitely is and i'm just not entirely sure

00:10:10.620 the documentation's here and it's all very well saying oh just trace your family tree back but

00:10:15.240 you can't necessarily do that that far back because they're just the documentation so patchy

00:10:19.960 for those that were not rich yeah absolutely and that's that's one of the interesting things in

00:10:26.300 particular as I say about Orkney the detail is there whoever was recording at that time in Orkney

00:10:31.860 has done a really amazing job and clearly as you see if people then move abroad to other countries

00:10:37.860 what Kelly says is that she comes from the line not directly the woman who Maribel Cooper who was

00:10:47.160 executed as a witch but she comes from the line of the second wife that he married so what she

00:10:55.980 says is had she not been accused and executed as a witch she would have remained alive he wouldn't

00:11:05.080 have married again and I wouldn't be here isn't that funny what a funny thought yeah but what she

00:11:11.180 said in the messages that I was having with her was she was very drawn and she's coming to Orkney

00:11:18.400 in 2024 but she says every time I think of Maribel Cooper I get chills when I think that because of

00:11:24.700 her spoiler execution and him remarrying my whole world is what it is so it's quite funny yeah it's

00:11:32.820 quite incredible that we don't really think of the world as a changed landscape because of the

00:11:38.500 executions but Scotland's whole population could have been so much more if critically 2,000 people

00:11:46.980 at least we hadn't lost that because when you're talking about a group of only 900,000 people 2,000

00:11:53.800 quite a lot particularly if those are women of a childbearing age yeah for sure and I was talking

00:11:59.500 to give a talk in um in in schools recently I give a few talks and that was one of the things

00:12:05.020 that helped make the connection for the kids um with you know what's this got to do with me and

00:12:09.380 we were talking about surnames and saying you know these are old Scottish names and if you imagine

00:12:13.320 that and it could be there was somebody that that you were related to that was accused or was an

00:12:18.720 accuser and then we talked about all the people that had been lost and all the potential kind of

00:12:22.740 generations lost it's a really fascinating horrible but fascinating sort of area to think

00:12:27.180 about yeah well it certainly it certainly hits home very directly to kelly and holly so please

00:12:33.940 do stay in contact with us and let us know your trip to orkney and as a result of her getting

00:12:39.560 in contact and talking about maribel cooper i thought that we should see today the person that

00:12:46.280 we should remember is Maribel Cooper. And I've looked up what information I can on her. So

00:12:52.800 Maribel Cooper was from Bercy in the presbytery of Cairnston. I hope I'm pronouncing that right 1.00

00:12:59.020 on Orkney. It said she resided in Northside and she was married to John Spence. And John Spence

00:13:06.840 is the relative of Kelly that we just mentioned. The case, which was the serious one, which she

00:13:15.180 was convicted of was in 1624. But in fact, that was the second allegation. She'd been tried

00:13:22.280 previously and banished, but she refused to leave. And what happened was it appeared, she says,

00:13:29.980 I'm going to voluntarily leave if you drop the charges. And having made that deal, she then

00:13:37.880 failed to go. So at some point later another accusation arises. She was accused in 1624 and

00:13:47.280 her trial took place on the 7th of July of that year. She was accused of maleficium, doing bad

00:13:53.540 things, using the power of the devil and it was said that she was involved in neighbourhood disputes.

00:14:00.220 It's recorded and of course all this information as usual comes from the Survey of Scottish

00:14:04.500 witchcraft she was recorded as carrying out rituals and accused as were many people of

00:14:12.000 taking the profits off of someone's cow now I'm not quite sure how that worked did she stop that

00:14:18.060 cow producing milk or then did that cow stop producing milk and her produce twice as much

00:14:24.060 I'm not sure how that worked but anyway it was said that she carried out these rituals taking 0.63

00:14:29.380 the profit of someone's cow and she was also found to be a woman who got into fights cursing 0.98

00:14:35.720 and quarrelling about cattle. She had a dispute with a neighbour over a borrowed kiln which was 1.00

00:14:42.460 used to grind corn. She was also accused of flighting. Now I have to say when I read that

00:14:49.060 Zoe I thought flighting is probably just an old word for flying. No we've definitely heard that

00:14:56.400 one before haven't we yeah i looked it up on the dictionary of scotch language dsl and it tells us

00:15:02.400 that flighting is quotes the action of quarreling or scolding or employing abusive language so i

00:15:10.380 think fair to say she was a quarrelsome dame who amongst us is not flighted absolutely 0.94

00:15:16.340 who amongst us doesn't flight every day of the week some of us get paid for flighting

00:15:22.080 so she was also said to have made sarcastic comments about the devil and people referred 0.98

00:15:29.160 to her as a banished witch which is fair enough because she was supposed to be banished after she 0.98

00:15:35.740 was accused of witchcraft last time the survey of scottish witchcraft can give us quite a lot 1.00

00:15:40.300 of information about her and this is a really weird one zoe she had a great bag like a fain's 0.80

00:15:48.280 bladder and the translation 1.00

00:15:50.300 is a great bag like a fawn's 1.00

00:15:52.320 bladder on her lap 0.97

00:15:54.200 which she claimed was her own 1.00

00:15:56.360 guts which a woman 1.00

00:15:58.500 had trampled out with her 0.99

00:16:00.320 knees 1.00

00:16:01.060 that's horrible

00:16:03.600 for the purpose

00:16:06.660 of the podcast 0.68

00:16:08.160 Zoe's face is 0.92

00:16:09.380 squished up in great 0.98

00:16:12.140 distaste

00:16:12.680 there's just a lot in that description

00:16:15.380 so basically she was feigning

00:16:17.980 that her own guts were hanging out and sitting in her lap but it was thought to be a fawn's bladder

00:16:24.820 and it says yeah it was she referring to some shamanistic removal of organs now that is the

00:16:33.340 idea of the person who's read this we just don't really don't really know we don't really understand

00:16:38.820 it she seemed to imply that she was being bewitched and trying to find the witch who was

00:16:44.440 plaguing her her husband and her household some tried to appease the person she believed to be

00:16:50.820 the culprit with ale so it was one of these sorts of I suppose cross allegations that she was saying

00:16:58.680 I'm not the witch I'm trying to find the witch who's put a curse on me and then ended up being

00:17:05.120 accused herself she was also charged with the crimes of sorcery and superstition now don't ask 0.52

00:17:12.580 me the difference from sorcery and witchcraft I just don't know and it's not in the act maybe

00:17:18.760 those are common law offences I'm not sure so she was charged with those offences as well alas as

00:17:25.280 I've already said she was convicted after trial and the record shows that she was taken to the

00:17:31.700 execution by the lockman and she was executed at Gallows Ha that's the hill at the top of the

00:17:37.640 village in Orkney right where the memorial is placed remember they they were just a memorial

00:17:43.940 and that's where that was so she was executed at that space so that was Maribel Cooper from Orkney

00:17:51.440 a woman not a witch. Okay so that's a really fascinating one to look at today and very

00:17:57.240 serendipitous that we were contacted that's really interesting it's nice to make that

00:18:01.120 connection between real people and the stories you know that's really interesting. Absolutely. We

00:18:06.680 I've been asked a couple of times recently by people what the status is of the pardon just now and of a potential memorial.

00:18:13.960 So should we just highlight what that is just now?

00:18:16.540 Oh, sure, sure. Well, what I can say is this, the public comments in respect of the private members bill have closed.

00:18:25.980 So all those have been collated, but they're not being put out at the moment.

00:18:30.680 Now, I suspect that might be because there are other things going on at the moment and there isn't any immediate necessity for this to be placed before Parliament are raised.

00:18:41.800 But we really hope very soon that that's going to be made public.

00:18:45.560 If and when it's made public, we will then approach various people that we've already talked to to get cross-party support for putting this forward.

00:18:53.780 I suspect but I don't know that it will be held back until the new parliamentary session that it's now dealt with but we will keep you informed of that in relation to National Memorial we've had a lot of discussions not only behind the scenes with bodies that are interested in being involved but also other groups we have yeah so we've been in touch with various different community groups that are doing wonderful things in their own communities

00:19:22.840 who we've talked to on the podcast and we've mentioned lots of times in the podcast we feel

00:19:27.520 very very strongly that as our campaign has always been it's the witches of scotland it's right

00:19:35.120 across scotland and we think that as the popularity has grown of the campaign and as we've grown with

00:19:42.420 listeners and people have been so wonderful and been in touch and have worked with us and then

00:19:46.540 have started their own projects and they've made friends with other people doing the projects

00:19:50.320 that it has to absolutely be a collegiate community endeavour and so we certainly have

00:19:57.400 nothing to do with some recent mooted plans by one group we don't work with them and we are very

00:20:03.920 keen on working with community groups right across Scotland so certainly we'll keep doing that we have

00:20:09.880 had a really interesting idea that hopefully we'll be able to kind of see through and then tell you

00:20:15.460 about but we have to do a little bit of work on that first don't tease us well do you know what

00:20:20.720 it is are you remembering no look in your file facts we have had something that claire and i

00:20:29.600 came up with i think is a really interesting um oh i remember good i'm glad you do claire so um we

00:20:36.100 will be following that up and as soon as we've got that kind of like moving along we'll be in touch

00:20:40.480 because that's something that will require different community buy-ins so we'll we'll be

00:20:45.580 back in touch we've got that one sorted out and let you know what that is I think it's also worth

00:20:49.260 mentioning that International Women's Day was a couple of weeks ago by the time this comes out

00:20:53.820 I suppose it'll be round about that and we gave a talk as part of the Leverhulme Institute at

00:20:59.220 University of Dundee because of course they very generously and wonderfully gave us our honorary

00:21:04.120 doctorate so now we have this lovely working relationship with them and we're very very happy

00:21:09.200 to go and speak to Professor Niamh Nickdade who is fascinating such an interesting interesting

00:21:16.960 academic and the work she does is really amazing so we went and spoke to her about that we had a

00:21:21.700 lovely crowd and it was a really nice event to do however it wasn't streamed or recorded and we had

00:21:28.280 lots of people get in touch with us afterwards saying oh we'd really like for you to to do that

00:21:32.840 and we thought well maybe it's time for us to put together a little online event again where we'll

00:21:37.560 get different speakers so we're just putting that together just now i'm gonna let you know we've got

00:21:41.400 a date for that one just like we did last year and also as it was international women's day worth

00:21:46.180 mentioning i think again that that's been then a year since we secured the apology from the first

00:21:51.600 minister for those accused of witchcraft so i think you know it's good to remember these things

00:21:57.180 because we're all working together so the apology is secured the pardon is underway and the memorial

00:22:02.400 is still very much in our sights

00:22:04.900 and we're working away on it

00:22:06.320 with all our partners

00:22:07.580 in the community across Scotland.

00:22:10.060 Yeah.

00:22:10.500 Just to be clear, though,

00:22:11.480 we're not actually physically

00:22:12.540 building it ourselves, are we, Zoe?

00:22:14.680 Well, I don't know.

00:22:15.360 It'll depend.

00:22:16.240 We'll see. 0.66

00:22:18.540 Zoe's getting on our dungarees and trowel.

00:22:21.600 Well, I've got one child

00:22:22.780 studying sculpture

00:22:23.520 and I've got another one

00:22:24.340 that starts studying sculpture

00:22:25.500 in September.

00:22:26.280 So I reckon by the time

00:22:27.160 we get the funding in place,

00:22:28.240 they'll have two

00:22:28.640 that could at least build things.

00:22:30.440 So who knows?

00:22:31.080 I think it's something that we just you know it's difficult because there's so many things

00:22:36.640 that are going on and there's so much happening in the news and politics is so febrile at the

00:22:41.080 moment I think it's good to remember where we've come from and where we're going so I think we

00:22:45.380 just mentioned people yeah so Zoe tell us who are we going to be speaking to today oh I love it that

00:22:52.360 we always build up the tension of who we're going to be speaking to but before people actually click

00:22:57.600 on the podcast we like give them the name and also the details i know but it's quite nice because it

00:23:02.720 reminds me of stars in their eyes it's a bit like that so yeah tonight matthew david might end up

00:23:09.140 cutting this out but i was out with my single friend at the weekend and these two quite elderly

00:23:14.480 rugby supporters who had done really kind of mad sort of tartan stetsons in a bar that we were in

00:23:20.940 in edinburgh came up to us and said girls girls we're not girls we're in our mid to late 40s

00:23:27.180 said i just want you to know you're absolutely gorgeous and if i was 20 years younger i'd be

00:23:33.420 in about you and then he walked towards the door of the bar and he turned back and he sang in the

00:23:37.820 bar and he just said to us but tonight matthew i am not and then left

00:23:42.860 i was very hilarious and only people of a certain age that used to watch stars in their eyes will

00:23:50.360 have got that joke but i thought it was hilarious absolutely the best line of the night to be honest

00:23:55.040 anyway it was very nice he sounds like a right laugh he did i think 20 years is a bit generous

00:24:00.920 but anyway so we have today a fantastic guest who we've wanted to get on for a while he's dead

00:24:06.380 interesting on twitter he's doing a really interesting project that is absolutely really

00:24:11.440 really worth going and having a look at we often have people ask us about where in the world he's

00:24:16.760 from and his area of specialisation. We've only done one show before that touched on it and that

00:24:21.340 was somebody that he's worked with actually in the past but he will tell you all about it in the

00:24:25.920 forthcoming interview that you're about to hear. So without any further ado I'd like to introduce

00:24:30.000 today's guest, Dr Andrew Sneddon who's a social and cultural historian with a special interest

00:24:35.760 in Britain and Ireland viewed in an international context and has written loads of really really

00:24:40.380 interesting stuff and he's looking at the framework from the medieval to the modern period.

00:24:44.620 he wrote a book called witchcraft and magic in ireland and another one called representing

00:24:50.340 magic in modern ireland belief history and culture then he's written tons of really

00:24:54.880 fascinating stuff like really interesting there's too many to actually list here but

00:24:58.820 definitely worth going and having a wee noodle around and seeing what you can find of dr andrew

00:25:02.740 Sneddon's work. I'm delighted today to say that we have finally managed to get on our guest because

00:25:15.400 the last time we arranged to speak to our guest Claire locked herself out of the house so

00:25:20.140 unfortunately it wasn't able to go ahead because she was wandering around her village looking for 0.99

00:25:24.200 her keys which she dropped on her dog walk. I'm so sorry. I'm delighted that our guest is actually

00:25:29.860 sort of born with us and agreed to come on a second time and I've been nervous all day that

00:25:33.860 some other catastrophe would occur but it's okay. I think we're all here, we're all present and

00:25:38.480 correct. So without any further chat from me I'd like to welcome to today's episode Dr Andrew

00:25:44.420 Sneddon. Hi Andrew. Hello, how's it going? Good thank you, good. So we basically I think first the

00:25:51.760 most important thing is why don't you tell our listeners why it is that we've invited you onto

00:25:56.140 the podcast uh well i don't know actually but that sounded like it was actually that was that

00:26:01.780 was a bit like you were gonna go well i don't know i'm caught up with such it's just like this

00:26:06.920 is my life on cilla black what is sorry what is your area of study dr andrew would be of interest

00:26:13.520 witches of scotland listeners well i have been researching history of magic and witchcraft for

00:26:22.620 you know I thought about it the other day and it's 24 years um I started off writing the you

00:26:29.880 know the biography of my PhD of Bishop Francis Hutchison who was a witchcraft skeptic who was

00:26:34.900 writing against in the early 18th century uh witch hunting and England had finished but he

00:26:39.760 wanted to continue on with that there and then I moved on and from probably the late 2000s I was

00:26:47.060 starting to look at Irish witchcraft because my students were saying you know I'm at Ulster

00:26:52.060 university and my students were saying well what about ireland and i'm saying well i don't know

00:26:56.280 because nobody's written on it really some people had but it was a few articles and things you know

00:27:01.600 not any great study so that's what i started to do our understanding is we had the guest on from

00:27:07.120 ireland quite a long time ago and at the time the the guest told us that they were making a tv

00:27:13.060 documentary about about witches in ireland that there was a huge difference between what happened

00:27:17.940 in scotland and what happened in ireland at the same time and the reason that she gave at that

00:27:22.480 time was that ireland had more of an appreciation and understanding of magic and it was more

00:27:28.300 culturally acceptable and that obviously religion was quite different there to what it was at that

00:27:33.400 point in scotland is that the reason why is that what you would say or i was the historical

00:27:38.440 consultant on that program and and mostly what she was saying would be based on my research

00:27:43.460 it's a very small witchcraft world

00:27:50.360 I know especially the people on that show

00:27:53.700 you know Lizanne Henderson and all that was on there

00:27:56.100 and Julian Goodyear 0.98

00:27:57.640 it's the gang, the witch gang 0.98

00:28:00.460 absolutely 0.98

00:28:01.960 yeah absolutely

00:28:04.540 I mean it depends what you're looking at

00:28:07.300 but I would say specifically

00:28:09.740 the mass of the population

00:28:11.700 the gaelic irish um irish speaking um believed in you know people who harmed using magic

00:28:19.620 but they didn't go to the the protestant courts or because largely because they didn't think

00:28:26.340 the threat was as great because their witches only attacked produce at specific times of the year

00:28:34.020 um like butter and milk you know so there weren't as much a threat in that community and others have

00:28:40.340 have argued that even if they would they wouldn't have used colonial protestant courts you know

00:28:45.120 hang on can i just go back to what you've just said a second ago there go so which has just

00:28:49.800 attacked particular produce and it was particularly like butter and milk just like an anti-dairy

00:28:54.780 like lactose intolerant witch yeah it was so basically uh they would see them you know the

00:29:01.820 kind of folkloric witch that continued on but it actually caused and that was my later research

00:29:07.200 which caused loads of court cases in the 19th century

00:29:10.540 where you would transfer the productiveness,

00:29:14.120 and you'll see this in all parts of Celtic Britain as well,

00:29:17.320 you'll see it in Scandinavia,

00:29:18.620 where they would transfer the productiveness

00:29:20.340 from somebody else's milk to your own.

00:29:22.600 So basically, no matter how much you turn your milk

00:29:26.740 and try to get butter, it won't work

00:29:28.500 because somebody else has stolen it.

00:29:30.220 So you've got 30 cows that are producing no butter,

00:29:32.580 and you've got one, and they take it really seriously,

00:29:34.660 You know, especially in the 19th century when this product is worth more, you know, to life and limb.

00:29:43.540 But in the early modern period, you know, it's not as much, but still enough to cause our arguments.

00:29:49.680 But, you know, usually they use magic to counter it or work it out in their own communities.

00:29:56.440 How interesting. 0.79

00:29:56.860 The Protestants are different from Scotland.

00:29:58.600 Is it because Ireland at that time had a much smaller Protestant population as well that it didn't take hold? 0.98

00:30:08.100 Yeah, I mean, they're coming. It depends when you look at it, patterns of migration, you know.

00:30:15.780 So you will get witch trials in, you know, big settler towns and areas like Yole and Cork in 1661.

00:30:23.460 And it's very much English type witchcraft because you will see the familiar, you'll talk about swimming the witch.

00:30:29.980 So you'll see the kind of things that are associated with English witchcraft because they're the English in Ireland now.

00:30:36.740 What's swimming the witch just before we move on? What's that?

00:30:39.660 All right, swimming the witch or the ordeal or the water ordeal is where, you know, sink or swim, basically. 0.77

00:30:47.440 Oh, that's doot in them. Okay.

00:30:49.000 yeah basically if you know the the water expels them they're evil and it's a you know a test of

00:30:56.180 witchcraft and they actually mention that in the old trial they don't actually do it they threaten 1.00

00:31:00.680 to do it but you don't see that when you come to county antelm in 1711 because it's scottish people

00:31:07.840 you know and and it's not as much in their culture you know so so they start coming over you know

00:31:16.360 in the 17th century and especially after um yeah i'd say about 1650 1660 in large numbers

00:31:24.020 and concentrate and antrim and down and derry and places like that and that is where you get the you

00:31:30.780 know the witchcraft accusations among these um presbyterian scots they're bringing it with them

00:31:36.940 i so we've we've found out because we were talking to someone about the witches of vardo quite

00:31:42.160 recently and we're like so how did this all start and she was like it's a Scotsman that arrived we

00:31:46.600 were like oh dear sorry about that I mean you don't you don't hear that on the big list of all

00:31:52.060 the things the Scots achieved do you know they they invented this they invented that they spread 0.96

00:31:56.040 the horror of witch trials around the world it's like not not so much mentioned on the tea towels 0.82

00:32:00.560 but um it's quite marked the difference really isn't it were you surprised by that the more you

00:32:05.560 looked into it in your the early days of your research well to be honest when I found Eileen

00:32:09.860 mcgee witches are way backwards you know and i just couldn't believe my luck really you know 0.62

00:32:14.280 because i try all like this maybe not in scotland because it's only now i think scotland is coming

00:32:19.980 into its own and realizing how much it how big it was you know but um when i looked at ireland i

00:32:26.740 couldn't believe that nobody had really had a book on this can you tell us the story of island

00:32:31.740 mcgee then yeah that's what we'd like to hear yeah okay the island mcgee how do you start

00:32:37.860 it was something i'm actually i'm writing the second as we speak i was doing it today i'm

00:32:43.600 writing the second edition of possessed by the devil my book on the hill mcgee witches you know

00:32:49.620 and then succinctly and 17 you know 1710 an old woman and hartridge who is a presbytenian

00:32:58.360 minister's wife she starts to basically be haunted by a demon and you see everything that's

00:33:06.160 associated with well today people would call it poor geist activity then it would be demonic

00:33:11.480 obsession just before demonic possession when a demon attacks the you know the body and maybe

00:33:18.560 the mind so all that's happening and that happens for a few months and you know she sees a wee

00:33:23.240 demonic boy and all that and they smash his windows and you get lithobolia as well stone

00:33:28.400 thrown and then it disappears and it comes back in february and then you know it's three siege

00:33:34.200 in death. It's making the bedclothes

00:33:36.240 up in the shape of a corpse, for example.

00:33:39.500 And

00:33:39.980 she dies suddenly with

00:33:41.820 stabbing pains in her back.

00:33:44.480 Now, because of

00:33:46.100 the demonic boy and everything else, people

00:33:48.120 are putting two and two together and are saying,

00:33:50.080 right, this is probably witchcraft.

00:33:51.320 But like some cases,

00:33:53.680 they don't know who.

00:33:56.300 And so, six

00:33:57.160 days after

00:33:59.040 old Anne died, Mary Dunbar,

00:34:01.860 who is a cousin,

00:34:03.240 you know or a niece actually of old mrs hartridge had died she she comes you know to keep the the

00:34:09.420 family company because james hartridge who's anne hartridge's son he's away in dublin and she's

00:34:14.700 keeping the family company she picks up this um a poppet basically you know it's um it's the old

00:34:21.840 woman's missing bonnet wrapped in an apron she's told not to touch it she unwraps it becomes

00:34:27.160 demonically possessed you know just basically you know i'll not go through the watch the exorcist

00:34:33.680 because that is a good early modern portrayal it's not like a 20th century portrayal of a

00:34:39.840 demonic possession it's good early modern one and all those symptoms and she doesn't blame herself

00:34:46.980 she doesn't say this is sin and the devil is a basically tempting me or punishing me she says

00:34:55.360 it's witches and she she does exactly like you would see in paisley in 1697 you know um pitt and

00:35:01.920 wean you know it's very very similar to these cases it's a witchcraft case by demonic possession

00:35:08.360 so she sees these people attacking her in spectral form and with that because she says she's a

00:35:15.540 stranger to the place she is able to you know um describe their clothes describe their you know 0.99

00:35:21.400 the way they look and track them down and the women that she basically accuses are all poor 0.99

00:35:29.320 they're all presbyterian they've got dubious reputations and some of them are disabled and

00:35:35.220 they're tracked down and they're basically and tried under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act

00:35:39.760 they try to bring in old Mrs Haltridge's death if that would have been upheld by the other judge

00:35:46.600 they've been all executed but that is put to one side the trial was ahead they're off they all

00:35:52.120 plead not guilty they're all found not guilty and they have to spend a year in jail and four times

00:35:59.860 in the pillory mary dunbar doesn't get better so she what she actually does is accuse the husband

00:36:07.540 of one of the convicted witches and the father of one of the convicted witches so you've got a

00:36:13.060 witch family here and as far as i can tell mary dumbard dies three weeks after the trial so it

00:36:20.660 becomes a capital case and by inference just like you do in a lot of scottish cases he would have

00:36:26.420 been executed for you know and bewitching mary dumbard to death so that's the only witches sorry

00:36:34.260 i wasn't that's a good description so does the graphic novel that's coming out does that tell

00:36:41.520 that story then yes uh very much so i mean i was working with um dr victoria mccallum and she's in

00:36:49.280 cinematic arts and a graphic artist and david campbell and we were very much sticking to the

00:36:57.200 story because what we wanted we wanted somebody to pick this up right and go right we know

00:37:02.100 that's what happened you know so we have changed some events you know and condensed things because

00:37:08.840 because it's a graphic novel and it has to be you know but we list everything that's changed at the

00:37:13.720 end and stuff you know and we haven't changed much everything all the people and all the events that

00:37:18.500 are portrayed you know are based on the events that happened and if anybody wants to read it

00:37:23.000 we've got a website w711.org and we've got all i've digitized all the documents and they're all

00:37:31.480 up there and you can freely download them you know oh that's fantastic yeah i've been giving

00:37:37.360 i've been giving talks in the high school that i work at recently to the second years who are doing

00:37:41.760 um a unit in history on the witch trials in scotland and i think anything like that is so

00:37:47.280 grabby and it just makes so much more sense to to people generally but particularly to young

00:37:52.900 people if they can see that there's a visual that goes with it that's fantastic and we're given it

00:37:58.140 see the graphic novel i mean and you can buy a fancy copy but what we're doing is um after it's

00:38:03.820 launch you hit a button and you ask us for a copy if you want to use it in education or

00:38:10.040 oh fabulous i'll be a you know i'll be a pdf copy but you can the pupils can use it there and they

00:38:19.500 can could probably you know look at the original documents as well with it you know we'll put a

00:38:25.500 link on when we put the podcast episode out we'll put links on we'll tweet them as well

00:38:29.520 we're also doing a virtual reality app you know oh wow and that well we're trying to we're trying

00:38:37.660 to get people to experience what it's like to be accused of witchcraft but also and this is you

00:38:44.300 know the the thing and you come across it as well the people who were accusing people of witchcraft

00:38:48.900 really believed it yeah sometimes they didn't sometimes they'll just try to get rid of people

00:38:53.560 but they believed and we're trying to you know show what it was like to live in a mental world

00:38:59.040 this is a reality and what it was like to be so that's what it's based on you know and

00:39:03.680 we've also got a nine part kind of animation probably about 25 minutes long coming out as

00:39:10.960 well that'll be incorporated into the vr but also we'll be releasing that an exhibition but there's

00:39:17.760 an exhibition on island which is going to be in carrick fergus museum because the witches were

00:39:22.440 actually um which is the women and men were actually tried in carrick fergus the sizes

00:39:28.500 and found guilty there and that's where they would have been pilloried and wbu says that one of them

00:39:36.640 lost an eye he was taking it from a local historian you know verbatim but he was saying

00:39:41.900 that one of them lost an eye that was a local folklore and which has really been pelted which

00:39:46.900 is really it becomes worse when you think about two of them only had one eye so that you know

00:39:53.760 they could have become completely blind you know i wonder whether that came you know but the 0.84

00:39:58.660 the women who were accused you know um were believable witches yeah because were they were

00:40:05.920 they kind of like what we would now think of as being marginalized were they kind of outsiders

00:40:09.860 yeah you're poor and one of them is said to be an ill fame i don't know whether that sex work you

00:40:16.440 know whether you could say that but others were saying you know given to vaunts and of their own

00:40:22.980 power you know and I think what they were saying there is maybe that they were you know they've

00:40:26.540 been cursed people you know which you've seen so many other times powerless and one of them you

00:40:32.520 know fell in a fire and so her hand was in a crook and she was burnt on one side others were marked

00:40:40.260 with smallpox, you know, and, you know, having sunken eyes, and one, you know, to use the parlance

00:40:46.380 at the time, had a club foot, you know, and we know that disability, you know, was interpreted

00:40:52.240 in religious terms, you know, so this was almost a kind of, you're reading the body as a text,

00:40:58.020 it's a kind of reflection of inner sin, you know, so the fact that it would work, you know,

00:41:04.460 when you're thinking of a believable witch

00:41:06.240 and a kind of bad woman as well.

00:41:09.200 So they resist, and I'm really proud of them for this,

00:41:13.080 they resist, they've got no capital at all,

00:41:15.920 social, educational, everything,

00:41:17.620 but they resist every part of the process.

00:41:20.780 They refuse to go and get tested before Mary Dunbar.

00:41:25.260 Their husbands, one of them, Andrew Ferguson,

00:41:27.940 tries to intervene in the process.

00:41:31.140 The fact that they're not pliant doesn't help their case either.

00:41:34.460 And William Seller, the man, the husband of Elizabeth Seller,

00:41:39.040 he tries to abscond as well, you know,

00:41:41.320 and he actually uses a drinking horn and hits somebody over the head

00:41:44.380 to try to arrest them as well.

00:41:46.460 I mean, who wouldn't in those circumstances be for the off

00:41:50.300 as soon as you were accused?

00:41:53.400 But there's actually, we've not heard that many stories

00:41:56.440 where people fought back.

00:41:57.540 Often the way that the narrative is spun in Scotland

00:41:59.820 is that people kind of mutely accepted it

00:42:01.960 because the machine was so big.

00:42:03.580 and, you know, that was the whole community was against you.

00:42:06.500 It's not often, I mean, obviously, because the records are very poor,

00:42:09.920 maybe there were lots of cases where people fought back or whatever,

00:42:12.800 but it tends to be the narrative.

00:42:14.340 It's almost as if they kind of mutely walked away with them, you know.

00:42:17.860 Yeah.

00:42:18.760 I mean, you get that a lot in English cases and you get it in Europe as well,

00:42:22.360 where, you know, the family unit, you know, the family unit can work against you.

00:42:25.920 You know, we know in Lancaster it was, you know,

00:42:28.040 a nine-year-old who got, you know, family members executed.

00:42:31.180 But, you know, sometimes the family unit, especially the husband, you know, fought against it for them, you know, I mean, they didn't often go easier.

00:42:40.400 But to be honest, we are dealing with, and this is where it is where, we are dealing with perhaps Scottish people, Scottish beliefs and an English system because the legal system by about 1600 is replacing Breton Law and things, right?

00:42:52.700 So it's actually the Assize Courts. So it's more like the legal system they're working under, Justice to the Peace Assize Courts, is more accusatorial and it's more like England rather than Scotland.

00:43:05.300 And in fact, even by this period, unlike Scotland, you know, well, maybe Scotland by 1711, but Scotland before then, the clergy would have been up to their necks in it, you know, up to their necks in the prosecution process, whereas you actually see the Presbyterian clergy in Ulster trying to work it out before it goes to court, arbitrating, trying to get them to make up, you know.

00:43:31.280 And then later on, what they're doing is, and they do this in Scotland as well, is later on is try to get the people who are accusing each other, you know, accusing people of witchcraft done for slander, basically, to dissuade others, you know.

00:43:46.380 So I think by this point, the justice system, well, the justice system is different, but it's also probably a wee bit sceptical, just like anywhere else, you know.

00:43:55.200 You get the impression, don't you, around about that time, certainly from stories that we hear, you get the impression that the church is kind of going, hmm, might just not be so fire and brimstone, maybe just back away from that a wee bit and pretend it didn't happen.

00:44:09.500 We heard stories, for example, of a minister asking for all his paperwork to be kept with him when he was firing brimstone 50 years earlier and finding witches everywhere.

00:44:22.200 And then as the world changed, he was wanting to keep all his documents and the historian said to us that he kind of suspected that he was just trying to keep his vociferous beliefs about witchcraft at the time just a bit quieter because he realised that that had fallen out of favour and people had moved on from witchcraft.

00:44:45.200 well absolutely in the 80s and 19th century that's my latest book um representing magic and

00:44:51.640 and island and what that looks is that how do people culturally interpret and represent

00:44:57.860 historic witch trials like you and that and in the years that passed and you will see that in

00:45:04.960 18th century just like everywhere else and in 19th century backing away from it saying oh this was

00:45:11.140 the bigotry of earlier

00:45:13.080 ages, we want nothing to do

00:45:15.080 with that, we're much more enlightened

00:45:16.840 now and that's got nothing to do

00:45:18.380 and then in Ireland obviously

00:45:20.660 just by the late

00:45:22.940 19th century it becomes politicised

00:45:24.880 once more

00:45:27.220 and this

00:45:29.100 is what I argue as well

00:45:30.600 you'll see the

00:45:31.680 And what was the politicisation?

00:45:34.160 What happened in the 19th century?

00:45:36.360 Well, you'll get

00:45:38.000 in the kind of 18th and 19th century

00:45:40.060 you'll get both unionists and nationalists, Catholics and Protestants,

00:45:44.480 both saying, you know, oh, we didn't have much witchcraft.

00:45:48.060 You know, we're backing away from witchcraft,

00:45:49.700 but Ireland was even better because we didn't have many trials.

00:45:52.940 We had, you know, so we're great.

00:45:55.180 And they're both sides are doing that and they're kind of backing away.

00:45:59.800 But by the crisis of the late 19th century and early 20th century,

00:46:04.260 the nationalists are saying, oh, you know, this is a cultural pollutant.

00:46:08.840 we didn't have witchcraft, we didn't believe in witches

00:46:11.660 it's a cultural pollutant that was brought 1.00

00:46:13.800 by settlers 1.00

00:46:15.500 it's an imperial import

00:46:17.440 and you get the unionists

00:46:19.580 who don't want to mention

00:46:21.280 Ayla McGee or anything because

00:46:23.220 to do so they're admitting they did

00:46:25.380 actually in some part come from Britain

00:46:27.780 and so

00:46:28.720 if you're aligning yourself more with

00:46:31.220 the British state then

00:46:33.340 you don't want to do that either

00:46:34.700 and it's also really 0.99

00:46:37.380 gendered, they forget

00:46:39.300 William Sellar, because it doesn't

00:46:41.620 fit the narrative of

00:46:43.040 these women were kind of pious 0.87

00:46:45.660 nice 0.99

00:46:46.900 gentle women, you know, who we 1.00

00:46:49.460 should feel sorry for, because they were 1.00

00:46:51.420 like that, we shouldn't feel sorry for them

00:46:53.480 because they were, but you know

00:46:55.260 he doesn't fit that narrative

00:46:57.200 so he's thrown out in it, both the history books

00:46:59.500 and, you know, in newspapers

00:47:01.520 and in plays, you know

00:47:03.400 Well we're glad that you're setting

00:47:05.380 history right and bringing them back into the picture because every single person that suffered

00:47:09.960 a witchcraft accusation deserves to be remembered and we're totally glad that you are bringing that

00:47:16.600 back see when you talk about people rewriting i suppose what you're talking about is people

00:47:21.280 rewriting history for their own purposes and just forget forgetting the bits that they they didn't

00:47:27.880 want, apart from this

00:47:30.020 particular witchcraft trial

00:47:31.780 were there any other

00:47:33.920 big instances of witchcraft

00:47:35.920 accusations or is that

00:47:37.660 really it that we know of

00:47:39.680 what I'm wondering is there's a whole

00:47:41.900 number of other stories out there we haven't heard yet

00:47:44.040 Right well I mean

00:47:45.740 the big ones in

00:47:47.200 1661 you know and

00:47:49.640 again I think on my

00:47:51.580 web page for the

00:47:53.680 university I've transcribed

00:47:55.220 the court documents of

00:47:57.280 DMD wants them, you know, and they're also

00:47:59.300 published, but you can get an early draft

00:48:01.300 of it, and that's another

00:48:03.460 demonic possession

00:48:05.520 witchcraft case, you know,

00:48:07.140 and it's happening in a certain hour,

00:48:09.540 and again, it's Mary

00:48:11.280 Longdon who accuses, you know, 0.98

00:48:13.220 an older woman, Florence Newton,

00:48:15.300 of bewitching her,

00:48:17.500 you know, using demonic possession, and then

00:48:19.180 she goes into jail, and the jailer

00:48:21.280 dies, and her method

00:48:23.380 of bewitching is touching,

00:48:24.880 and he you know he dies and kissing people as well and Mary McAuliffe has argued that you know 0.63

00:48:33.920 one of the reasons why that it was taken so forward because it was the unregulated female

00:48:38.100 touch you know this is women kissing women maybe you know that's why it was taken so serious but 1.00

00:48:45.020 she uses cursing as well and she uses other forms she uses image magic as well

00:48:50.540 and we don't know really what magic sorry what's image magic andrew oh sorry sorry you'll get it

00:48:58.180 well i mean i suppose a voodoo doll is image magic you know usually sympathetic magic you do

00:49:03.960 something to the the object or whatever that's linked to the person and you know in salem you

00:49:10.380 know it would be the ragdolls the puppets and in england you would get wax figures that were

00:49:15.440 melted or stuck with things you know it's more rags in this case as well you know so there's a

00:49:22.160 whole you know a whole load of you know things that's going on there and we assume that she was

00:49:29.080 found guilty and we assume that she was it was executed but we don't really know because it's

00:49:33.720 about like the scottish cases you know um where you've got the records that tell you about the

00:49:39.160 trial that you know it looks as if you know that they're getting found guilty but there's no other

00:49:45.380 proof apart from that you've written i've counted you've got possessed by the devil you've got

00:49:50.880 representing magic in modern ireland you've got wigs and witches you've got witchcraft and magic

00:49:56.880 in ireland another one and then you've got historical studies by yourself and all these

00:50:03.960 are available on Amazon

00:50:05.540 if somebody is listening

00:50:07.440 because I know a lot of our listeners

00:50:08.720 like reading your stuff

00:50:10.540 and I'm sure they'll want to come

00:50:11.840 and see your web page

00:50:12.960 if somebody is coming to the issue

00:50:16.140 of Witches in Ireland

00:50:17.300 for the first time

00:50:18.220 what book should they start with?

00:50:20.620 I think they should start

00:50:22.000 with a cheap one right?

00:50:25.300 Well I'm sure they'll

00:50:26.100 because we get complaints

00:50:29.140 from listeners all the time

00:50:30.320 that we cost them a fortune in books

00:50:31.980 Right, well, so, you know, you can get, I think, Possessed by the Devil, right?

00:50:36.420 As I said, the kind of second edition's coming out, which I'm just going to,

00:50:40.240 basically, I wrote that in 2013, and I said a wee bit, you know,

00:50:44.220 but I expanded on it, you know, and wrote about what happened afterwards,

00:50:49.100 you know, so I'm going to put that into the second edition.

00:50:51.760 But I think the first edition, Possessed by the Devil, gives a good overview.

00:50:55.440 It's written as a narrative, but it is scholarly in that sense as well,

00:51:00.360 you know so I think you get a good all-rounder and as far as I can see it was about six quid

00:51:05.400 on a kindle. Very very good value Andrew, very good value indeed. It's been a totally fascinating

00:51:10.900 speaking to you Andrew and it's really interesting to think about how close geographically Ireland

00:51:16.140 was to Scotland and I know it's obviously not like now but we we tend to think of ourselves

00:51:20.960 as being a pretty similar sort of a people so it's interesting to see the contrast between the two

00:51:26.440 areas or really three I suppose if we think about England as well with it with the English people

00:51:30.860 that came across and what was happening there so it's really fascinating to think of it in those

00:51:34.640 terms and I'm really interested to see what your graphic novels like as well and see the way that

00:51:39.360 you've presented it there because I think at the end of the day what we all want is for people to

00:51:43.560 understand history and to have like an accurate understanding of history not the history that

00:51:49.480 people have said where oh no we had nothing to do with that that was nothing to do with us and

00:51:53.280 you know sort of allied the things that actually happened so i think it'll be really fascinating

00:51:57.500 so thank you so much for coming on no problem it's really nice talking to you and i think that

00:52:03.280 your um your whole campaign and the website and everything is great and oh thanks

00:52:09.220 oh good good and it's good we're all working together that's what i really love about this

00:52:15.200 campaign is that every time we speak to another fantastic expert it's nice we're sharing that

00:52:19.860 knowledge and as a as a teacher i'm a big fan of we share you know and it's it's nice because it

00:52:25.300 means there's people that have stumbled upon the issue that didn't really have an interest before

00:52:29.460 that have now jumped off in loads of different directions and i know when your episode goes out

00:52:33.740 we'll have people getting in touch us saying oh my family were from ireland originally so

00:52:38.600 how can i find out about whether my family was involved in that there which i think is brilliant

00:52:42.700 anything that sparks curiosity is is a good thing in my book thanks very very much for your time we

00:52:48.460 really appreciate it and folks for those that you can't see Andrew not only has written a lot of

00:52:52.820 books but has a very very impressive bookshelf behind him and it's very messy at all because

00:52:58.260 that's good that's good see when you see people that have got these bookshelves that are color

00:53:04.580 coordinated you just think what's going on there or worse when you see those things where they've

00:53:09.440 got the books turned around the other way so it's uniformly sort of like the buff colored pages

00:53:14.000 Oh no

00:53:14.740 That gives me absolute fear

00:53:17.940 How the hell can you find anything

00:53:19.320 Exactly

00:53:20.200 You don't use them obviously

00:53:22.700 No they're just purely for

00:53:24.460 Now Andrew can we just finally get from you

00:53:27.700 If we do come across to Ireland

00:53:29.440 Will you meet us for a coffee

00:53:31.260 If we're going to go about

00:53:32.820 Absolutely

00:53:33.440 Fantastic

00:53:34.560 That works

00:53:37.980 Well thanks a lot Andrew

00:53:40.120 We really enjoyed it

00:53:41.100 See you later

00:53:42.400 Bye

00:53:43.240 well thanks so much for listening to another episode and only the 67th episode of six

00:53:56.620 from witches of scotland as ever please please do get in touch with us on our different social

00:54:01.760 media platforms we're most active on twitter although we also use instagram and we've got

00:54:07.480 our facebook page where we share information which is really a cool place to um to share

00:54:12.600 stuff from different people that are working in scotland and and further field and remember that

00:54:17.620 we've got merch and the money from the merch does not go to us it goes towards david who is still

00:54:24.000 manfully battling on trying to shape the drivel that claire and i put together into an acceptable

00:54:30.140 audio format thank you so much david and also i think we also have the facility where you can buy

00:54:35.600 david a coffee so that's there too but please do get in touch with us we're always fascinated to

00:54:41.080 hear what you're doing in your own communities or if you've got any personal links to any of the

00:54:44.300 stories yeah so we look forward to seeing you in two weeks time two weeks time i mean what's a week

00:54:52.000 or two either side of that between friends yeah well we'll see we'll see we'll try our best we

00:54:57.940 always do try our best we do tryers we're tryers as my dad used to say very trying but we are

00:55:05.220 tryers so okay thanks for joining us bye

00:55:09.820 if you'd like to learn more about the witches of scotland please subscribe wherever you get

00:55:17.960 your podcasts sign up for our mailing list at www.witchesofscotland.com to keep updated with

00:55:26.060 the campaign on that site you'll be able to find how to link with us on twitter facebook and instagram

00:55:35.220 Thank you.

Witches of Scotland - April 02, 2023

EPISODE 67 DR ANDREW SNEDDON WITCHES OF IRELAND

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