Witches of Scotland - EPISODE 68 - MODERN WITCHCRAFT ACCUSATIONS AND TRIALS WITH LEO IGWE ： WARNING DISCUSSES VIOLENCE

00:00:00.960 I am Clare Mitchell, Doctor of Laws and King's Council.

00:00:04.080 And I am Zoe Vendetotsi, Doctor of Laws, Teacher and Writer.

00:00:07.760 On the 8th of March 2020, International Women's Day,

00:00:11.120 we launched the Feminist Witches of Scotland campaign.

00:00:13.920 The Witchcraft Act, enforced between 1563 and 1736,

00:00:19.360 saw thousands of people, mostly women,

00:00:22.080 accused and executed as witches in Scotland

00:00:25.040 in the country's biggest and most brutal miscarriage of justice.

00:00:28.880 Our campaign had three aims. To get a formal state apology for those accused of witchcraft,

00:00:34.560 to obtain a pardon for all those convicted, and to get a national memorial to remember

00:00:39.360 those involved in the Witchcraft Act. On International Women's Day 2022, the first

00:00:45.040 of our aims was realised when First Minister Nicola Sturgeon issued a formal state apology

00:00:49.600 to those accused as witches. The first formal state apology ever. We are currently working

00:00:54.320 with politicians to ensure there's legislation passed to pardon those accused as witches to

00:00:59.120 change their status from convicted witches to those who ought never to have been prosecuted

00:01:04.160 we continue our work to obtain a national monument so those who suffered will never be forgotten

00:01:09.040 join us as we speak to the experts on the witchcraft trials both here in scotland and further

00:01:13.680 abroad as we explore the history of women in scotland and continue the cultural conversation

00:01:18.720 of what it means to be a woman hello and welcome to the witches of scotland podcast

00:01:24.880 claire you're just really not going to believe it it's only episode 68 of six

00:01:30.620 are we just going to keep doing this a like making the podcast until we die and b making this joke

00:01:37.380 about the podcast until we die well i think like if we don't make the joke now people will be like

00:01:42.360 where's the joke maybe it's maybe it's gone past the joke and i know for one that probably my

00:01:47.400 brother think it has now no it's i'm sure it went past the joke for your brother 100 million years

00:01:52.860 ago about episode 12 cheesy peeps we've got a lot to talk about in the news section yeah don't we

00:02:01.520 the first thing is clear we went to visit something very exciting didn't we we absolutely did we went

00:02:08.780 to see from roll debbie we went to see the book demonology the famous book yeah at the national

00:02:18.960 library and dear listener it didn't look like a disney book of spells no it was really surprising

00:02:27.300 we should actually put up some images of the size of it it's it's like the size of like um a novel

00:02:32.060 like a really really slim novel it's really just like a kind of a collection of essays i would say

00:02:37.920 yeah and the staff were so incredibly helpful at the national library of scotland we are so lucky

00:02:44.500 to have such a wonderful resource in this country and i know sometimes i'm inclined to wang on a bit

00:02:49.560 about libraries but they are just the most amazing and fabulous resource that we all need to be using

00:02:54.600 and we all need to be praising and we all just need to be saying what an amazing job they do

00:02:58.600 because we were regular listeners will be perhaps unsurprised to hear this not tremendously

00:03:04.480 organized and they were so helpful we were just like the day before look we're coming down could

00:03:10.520 we could you please help us out with this and they were just tremendously brilliant they were

00:03:14.040 really really great they were taken through the library and then we went to and this isn't because

00:03:19.180 obviously we're amazingly famous celebrities this is I think just the way that people get treated

00:03:24.420 that have got serious requests about one of their books in their collection and we got taken into a

00:03:29.100 special room that had like metal shutters to protect the books that were in there that were

00:03:33.300 brought into there and we we were given two copies of demonology to look at so we're sitting

00:03:39.900 looking at the two books and they're balanced on these little bean bags each so the spine of them

00:03:45.200 is all protected and i'm like looking at my copy and it's quite difficult i'm trying to work out

00:03:50.640 in scottish and zoe's sitting beside me going oh look it says this it says this and reading them

00:03:55.080 out and i'm going yeah and i'm thinking how is it how is it so easy for her to just translate that

00:03:59.820 like expert in scots in her head zoe what were you doing i was reading the english version

00:04:05.440 obviously you're making a rookie error there baby so one version is in scots naturally and the other

00:04:14.740 was translated into english which was really interesting to see the differences there so great

00:04:21.640 actually see in real life rather than reading or seeing images of it online to actually see the

00:04:26.960 book it's obviously so incredibly old but you know looked looked very well for its age I would say

00:04:32.880 it did and one of them in fact had only been appears fished out from somebody's personal

00:04:38.700 collection because there was something written in one of the front pages that indicated that

00:04:44.860 the last century it was in someone's like private collection or they'd bought it somewhere so it's

00:04:49.120 clearly just been sitting on a bookshelf for 200 300 years amazing people that look after books

00:04:54.920 look after books yeah that's true yeah yeah so it's really cool to look at that we'll talk about

00:05:00.720 that more anon we will not today talking about you know knowledge literature the arts are there

00:05:08.740 any art things that have crossed your view recently claire there are i like that segue zoe

00:05:14.060 there are so smooth there we are delighted to let you know that heel and harrow friends of the show

00:05:20.480 will know that heel and harrow came to us and spoke to us about the work that they were doing

00:05:24.620 with Vary who's also a friend of the show and they have just started their own podcast which

00:05:32.300 is brilliant. It's for people I suppose maybe that weren't able to make the show because what

00:05:37.860 the Heel and Harrow concept was taking stories of women who'd been killed as witches and also

00:05:43.860 the folklore of women as witches and putting it into different words and different music

00:05:51.400 and now they're going to produce this podcast

00:05:53.740 with the words that Mary Kidd has written

00:05:57.940 and their music put together.

00:06:00.500 It's going to be read by women throughout Scotland.

00:06:02.520 So I think it's a really, really beautiful thing

00:06:04.900 and certainly get downloading.

00:06:07.000 It's fantastic.

00:06:08.000 They mentioned it when they were on our podcast,

00:06:10.000 which feels like about a million years ago

00:06:11.640 that they were going to be doing their own podcast.

00:06:13.940 So it's nice to see that come to fruition

00:06:15.860 and we know that our listeners are going to love that as well.

00:06:18.740 So give them some love and do all that.

00:06:21.400 What is it that they say?

00:06:23.200 Subscribe, blah, blah, blah.

00:06:25.560 Subscribe, text, phone, email.

00:06:28.040 Text, phone, email.

00:06:29.560 God knows.

00:06:30.260 All those things.

00:06:31.260 From what I've listened to so far,

00:06:32.640 I am very, very jealous of their soundtrack.

00:06:36.140 Not that our music isn't good,

00:06:37.480 because Zoe's son did our music.

00:06:39.920 However, they have beautiful tunes with professional musicians.

00:06:44.780 Maybe we should get Luca to make a new tune,

00:06:46.560 because to be fair, he was like about 15 or 16 at the time.

00:06:50.520 do you think i've got so used to our tune our 20 now he's developed more skills okay i'll ask him 0.93

00:06:58.160 he's probably too busy to give his stupid bit of music it's too cool now anyway sorry moving on 0.88

00:07:05.260 moving on moving on we've got something quite exciting coming up don't we claire yes we are 0.98

00:07:10.920 going to be appearing speaking to people about books in relation to all things witches and

00:07:16.140 witchcraft at I write yeah so you'll remember probably last year we spoke to lovely Jenny

00:07:23.480 Fagan about her book Hex and we recorded that as a live podcast we're going to be doing the same

00:07:28.620 because um the delight that is Bob McDevitt who programs I write loved the event so much it was

00:07:33.600 such a great event he's asked us to come back and do it again so this year instead of having

00:07:38.100 one writer we've actually got two writers we've got the wonderful Jill Dawson talking about her

00:07:43.280 book Bewitching and the other writer is Anya Bergman who you'll remember probably from being

00:07:48.360 on the podcast already talking about her book The Witches of Vardo so I think it'll be really

00:07:52.720 interesting to see the two books kind of compare and contrast because one the Jill Blossom book is

00:07:58.240 set in England and the other book obviously is set in Vardo and there's there's a really

00:08:02.500 interesting sort of comparison between the two so that'll be great so that is going to be on

00:08:07.780 saturday i believe the 27th of may so saturday the 27th of may i think it's on at 9 45 at night

00:08:15.420 but i write website it's quite late isn't it if you go into the i write website and have a wee

00:08:21.480 look on there you'll find it and i think also they've been tweeting and stuff about it and

00:08:24.760 we'll put stuff out on our social media too when this episode goes out but it'd be really nice to

00:08:29.260 have people there we had a fantastic turnout last year and it's just really nice because we get to

00:08:32.860 meet people in the flesh that sometimes we only know of on the internet yeah yeah yeah looking

00:08:39.100 forward to it it's either quite late 9 45 or quite early for the witching hour yeah it's somewhere

00:08:45.900 in between like us yeah and speaking of things which are cultural we also have the most exciting

00:08:55.720 news, which is that

00:08:57.640 a play by

00:08:59.680 Laurie Flanagan-Heggy

00:09:01.380 I hope I'm pronouncing that surname correctly

00:09:03.720 Laurie, get in contact with us if we're not

00:09:05.920 directed by

00:09:07.220 Maggie Greville, again

00:09:09.340 I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly

00:09:10.800 it's called Prick and it is being

00:09:13.840 shown at the Edinburgh Festival

00:09:15.780 this year and Zoe

00:09:17.380 you'll never believe this

00:09:19.500 they have said

00:09:21.220 that this piece of work

00:09:23.440 has been inspired by

00:09:25.580 the witches of scotland campaign i mean it's very nice it's really cool when people do that because

00:09:30.800 there's been quite a few things to be fair like heel and harrow and um some other campaigns and

00:09:36.680 some artworks and some different things that have happened or people have said that they've been

00:09:41.360 really influenced and things have been kicked off by the campaign and by by what they've heard on

00:09:45.900 the podcast from various experts really really nice to hear that it's so exciting there's this

00:09:50.300 ripple effect. Prick is on from the 5th to the 25th of August at what's called The Space on the

00:09:57.920 Mile. It's venue 39 at the Radisson Hotel and it's on at 11.15 for one hour 15 minutes so get

00:10:08.100 tickets for that books we're really excited about it and we really look forward to going to see that.

00:10:14.140 leads us on to our final um bit of news which is as well as like all the nice cultural stuff just

00:10:20.900 to sort of go along I guess enjoy there's also the educational aspect to what it is that we're

00:10:25.920 doing which obviously we're both very keen on and there's a new resource that we've got to point you

00:10:30.500 to isn't there for teachers particularly Claire yes it's absolutely brilliant um I can say it's

00:10:36.240 absolutely brilliant because I have already seen it it's a comic it's by common good comics and if

00:10:42.820 You Google Common Good Comics, it'll come up.

00:10:45.500 And it's in association with Glasgow Caldonian University and Magic Torch Comics,

00:10:50.940 who secured funding from the National Lottery Heritage Fund for a two-year project

00:10:56.440 sharing stories of social enterprise and community action.

00:11:01.380 So Common Good Comics got in contact with Zoe and I and said,

00:11:04.820 we really like your story.

00:11:06.320 Could we use them as one of the stories for the comics?

00:11:10.500 so it's not only our story but it's other stories that are there as well because they explore history

00:11:16.880 and community archives and then they present the material in two comic collections they say that

00:11:22.980 those can be shared in schools online at comic cons and other national events i don't can we

00:11:29.380 cosplay ourselves at a comic con well i mean yeah because i think the picture there they're using we

00:11:35.400 look quite different in it to what we look like now so we would be playing ourselves in the past

00:11:39.620 that sounds like fun and i love the fact that they're called common good and that's obviously

00:11:46.360 sort of the drive with what they do it's really i think that's really nice and really cool yeah

00:11:50.800 it is and the actual comic that they've done for us is really good each little part highlights on

00:11:56.920 different particular issues which could in and of themselves spark conversations that could last

00:12:02.460 a really really long time and what we'll do as well is we're going to do a podcast with that in

00:12:07.640 advance so we're going to be talking to the writer and the director about the process and you know

00:12:13.840 what everything's about with it and then maybe Claire you and I could do like like a live record

00:12:18.140 sort of a thing where we could go along and watch it and get some audio while we're at that as well

00:12:22.080 that'd be quite interesting for those that can't get over. That's a totally good idea I thought you

00:12:26.200 were going to suggest that we could be background actors which I am totally up for. I've just read

00:12:31.740 a really hilarious piece in complete tangent this but not really about Ruby Wax talking about in her

00:12:37.520 early career um that she played it was in measure for measure and her and another really famous

00:12:43.660 actress i can't remember her name of both played pox ridden poor nuns and they were non-speaking

00:12:49.800 parts but richard coles you know the reverend that used to be in the band and so on he said

00:12:55.020 that he remembered her from when she did that because even though there were non-speaking

00:12:58.020 roles they totally stole the show from everybody else because they so overacted their non-speaking

00:13:03.380 roles and it made me think of french and saunders but it also made me think of you and me 1.00

00:13:07.180 so maybe maybe we could be we could be sort of pus filled dying of the plague um nun whores in 0.97

00:13:15.020 the background i mean that's a lot to get to get over to you know i'm confident i'm confident in 0.96

00:13:22.360 that over i mean that's you know it's quite a lot to project simply through your eyes do you know

00:13:27.200 well they were allowed to move their bodies they just weren't allowed to speak okay yeah i think

00:13:32.540 that's definitely a challenge i'm sure workshop it'll be fine so this brings us on to our part

00:13:38.700 of the show that we do every time which is much more serious which is where we remember people

00:13:42.760 that were accused and the people we've chosen today is because we were at the weekend delighted

00:13:49.240 to be invited down to wigton to give a talk about the campaign and so on and i've never been to

00:13:55.220 it's scotland's what do they call it scotland's bookshop town scotland's literary town village

00:14:02.180 scotland's town of a million bookshops something like that they do a big festival um in the autumn

00:14:08.300 i believe and then they do a smaller one at this time of the year and we're invited to come along

00:14:11.820 hopefully we'll get invited back to the big one we haven't disgraced ourselves we went along gave

00:14:15.780 a talk and it was really nice lovely place to go and i'd strongly recommend it was such a cool thing

00:14:20.340 that you walk around this really small place i think there's a thousand inhabitants and there's

00:14:25.140 tons of bookshops so if that's your thing and we know that our readers are our listeners are big

00:14:30.860 readers and big book buyers. I think that would be a really good destination for most of our

00:14:34.820 listeners if they haven't been already. So today we're going to be talking about the Wigton

00:14:38.880 Martyrs. Yeah, we got there and we thought, I just thought that it would be interesting to share

00:14:44.220 with you what we found out when we were there. The Wigton Martyrs did have a connection with

00:14:50.920 Scotland's faith during the 17th and 18th centuries, I suppose, because they were caught

00:14:56.400 up in that religious furore that women who were accused of witchcraft were. So there

00:15:01.300 is actually a connection to it. So during that period of time, there was a clash, as

00:15:08.120 we know, between the covenanters who believed that no one but God and Christ could be at

00:15:14.780 the head of the religion, and differently the supporters of James who wanted to see

00:15:19.660 the Roman Catholic Church restored. That's James II, not James I. So there was a particularly

00:15:27.460 bloody time, which were called the Killing Years, and it was between 1680 and 1685.

00:15:36.100 And in one of the most shocking episodes, two covenanters, two people that believed

00:15:40.560 that no one but God and Christ could be at the head of their church, set themselves against

00:15:46.340 the prevailing views. And what they refused to do was they refused to give up their view

00:15:53.920 that no one but God and Christ could be at the head of their religion. And in a really brutal

00:16:01.240 event, what happened was Margaret Lachlan, a woman aged 63, which would be a very fair age

00:16:09.220 for that time, given how long people lived. Margaret Lachlan was tied to a stake and the 0.99

00:16:17.280 water was allowed to come in and she was allowed to drown. The younger woman, Margaret Wilson, 0.98

00:16:23.400 a woman probably only in her late teens or early twenties, was shown this, was actually shown this

00:16:29.480 to happen and said that if she did not recant, if she did not change her mind and take this oath,

00:16:36.200 then she too would suffer the same faith and in an utterly beyond my comprehension

00:16:42.880 way of belief she held true to her religious beliefs and as a result of that she suffered

00:16:49.580 the same fate. I'm very glad to see that Wigton remembers these women and remembers what happened

00:16:58.240 to them and there's a stone and there's also a memorial there as well and I think it's really

00:17:04.060 really great as we've touched on about memorialization as well that we bring the

00:17:09.400 stories of the women who were killed as witches back to memorialization and I'm so glad that

00:17:15.440 because there was a stone because there's a memorial that caused us to listen to engage

00:17:21.820 and to find out about these women and we we remember what happened in the name of religion

00:17:28.060 to these two women, Margaret Lachlan and Margaret Wilson,

00:17:32.360 women who were forced to die in circumstances

00:17:36.100 where they certainly shouldn't have.

00:17:38.340 Yeah, and it's interesting there to mention again,

00:17:40.760 obviously, about the importance of memorialisation.

00:17:43.400 We are going to be holding an online,

00:17:45.340 probably an online event at a date to be confirmed

00:17:47.940 with different community groups

00:17:49.980 who have an interest in a genuinely national memorial.

00:17:53.340 So if you are involved in a community group in Scotland,

00:17:56.180 and there are lots that we know of already please get in touch with us so you can be involved in the

00:18:01.400 conversation because it's very important that wherever the national memorial ends up that it's

00:18:05.900 something that we've all got buy into in all these different groups it's not for one particular group

00:18:10.080 to gatekeep and we have always seen ourselves as kind of like a sort of a helpful umbrella where

00:18:15.740 we bring different people together and say well do you know these people are doing that or they've

00:18:19.640 heard things on the podcast or they've been inspired to do something because of the campaign

00:18:23.440 so please get in touch with us on one of our social medias it's probably best if you get in

00:18:28.320 touch with me that's Zoe on Twitter if you message me on there but just wherever you do get in touch

00:18:34.800 and we'll put a date together because we've got some really interesting ideas that we'd like to

00:18:38.980 see if there's appetite for so without any further ado I'm going to lead you on to today's guest who

00:18:44.740 is somebody who's been on before and who we love to speak to it's Leo Igwe who is joining us today

00:18:51.360 to talk to us about his efforts across various countries in Africa.

00:18:56.240 He's just about to embark on an American speaking tour

00:18:58.880 and we'll put up information about that as well.

00:19:01.440 If you don't already follow either Leo Igwe

00:19:03.660 or the advocacy for alleged witches on Twitter or on Facebook,

00:19:08.980 definitely worth looking at because it underlines the importance

00:19:11.700 of why the campaign still ridiculously and appallingly

00:19:15.200 and upsettingly has relevance today.

00:19:18.100 Now, in keeping with the modern times,

00:19:19.700 I am going to give you a little trigger warning because some of the stuff that you hear about isn't away in the history, which is still upsetting.

00:19:25.780 It's things that are happening now. So just have a wee thought about that before you listen on.

00:19:30.660 Absolutely. If you do not want to listen on because of that, we totally understand.

00:19:37.320 What you can do is you can see us interacting with Leo on the socials or you can go to his website, Advocacy for Alleged Witches.

00:19:45.480 It is really great if you can follow him online, on Twitter, because the more he is able to engage with people, the better for him, really.

00:19:56.120 So please do try and do that. Without further ado, Leo Igwe.

00:20:04.820 Hi there. We are absolutely delighted to have joining us again on the Witches of Scotland podcast.

00:20:10.780 Leo Igwe who you will remember spoke to us way back in the beginning I think in the first year

00:20:15.900 of the campaign and we feel that this is this is something that we often reference when we give

00:20:20.620 talks is that this is not an incident that has has been relegated to the past that unfortunately

00:20:26.800 and horrifyingly there are current ongoing very serious stories that are happening in various

00:20:32.820 places in the world and Leo is one of the people that's working very hard to make that stop in real

00:20:38.780 time in the present day. So without any further ado, Leo Igwe, welcome back to Witches of

00:20:44.040 Scotland. Thank you so much for having me once again. We're so happy to have you back

00:20:48.860 on again. I think what we'd like to hear, first of all, if it's okay with you, is an

00:20:52.300 update on what work you've been doing and how things are going. Oh, well, I must just

00:20:57.380 say that right now we are overwhelmed in terms of the cases we are receiving. Because one

00:21:04.000 thing about publicity is that it's not just only that the message is going out that we are trying

00:21:09.420 to provide assistance and people are also reaching out to us with reports and I will just tell you

00:21:15.700 that another report came in just today I just sent out a blog a press release today which is a case

00:21:22.460 in Kano a remote village is also linked to a local medicine people rural community no good

00:21:30.700 health infrastructure. People go to some of these locals, they call them traditional healers,

00:21:37.400 and of course, not knowing what to do, they have to impute witchcraft as a way to make sense of

00:21:43.660 the service they claim to be rendering, and of course, collect money from people who already

00:21:48.600 need help. So the information got into there, and we are making efforts to see how we can respond

00:21:56.700 to such a situation but in this case of course the woman is alive that's the lucky thing so we're

00:22:02.800 trying to extend help in terms of supporting highway relocation and maybe try to help her

00:22:07.880 find business away from the community where she has been accused but since the last time you know

00:22:13.480 we had an interview i mean we've had a lot of very terrible cases um i just want to mention a few

00:22:21.320 We have a case of a woman in southeastern Nigeria.

00:22:24.820 She was accused and they beat her up in the night

00:22:30.700 because the family could not take her in.

00:22:34.260 The father's family could not take her in.

00:22:36.720 They beat her up in the bush, beat her to death

00:22:39.220 and got her buried in the bush.

00:22:41.340 And up till now, there have not been any efforts to exude

00:22:45.160 and get the family to at least get some kind of closure to the matter.

00:22:53.280 We approached the police, and the police have not been cooperated.

00:22:57.340 We have a case in Malawi.

00:22:59.200 A woman was accused of also being responsible for the death of a family member. 0.70

00:23:04.760 And what is annoying in this case is that this person was living in South Africa

00:23:09.260 and died there.

00:23:11.360 but when people die even if they die in the uk even if they die in the us the family will have

00:23:17.480 to go to a traditional priest or traditional healer okay to find out what's responsible for

00:23:22.540 the death and of course they said oh yeah somebody's in the family responsible for that

00:23:27.420 so in this case now when the cops they brought their cops home and they wanted to bury this

00:23:32.860 person the woman was standing beside the grave as a family member and somebody pushed her into

00:23:38.800 the grave yes and luckily she lost two of her teeth and then they were able to rescue her and

00:23:45.660 today she's she's alive but another very sad story was in october and there was a case where in the

00:23:52.540 rural communities somebody was riding on a motorbike in the night without any headlines

00:23:57.500 so at some kind of a corner the person crashed and died and the family said oh this is not

00:24:04.720 ordinary thing uh just in october october lasted so they went to a local healer or priest they go

00:24:12.040 by so many names uh spiritualist powerful witch doctor whatever they call them and this person

00:24:17.840 said it was some old people in the village and who are trying to initiate people into witchcraft

00:24:24.140 and kill a lot of people so what they did in this case it involved a child of about eight years

00:24:28.720 this child was of course beaten, tortured

00:24:31.940 and he started confessing

00:24:33.980 the people who were responsible

00:24:35.280 and mentioned this woman and three others

00:24:37.740 so they went and adopted this woman

00:24:40.180 who just came home to farm

00:24:41.820 and nothing more, that was the only thing 1.00

00:24:43.440 she came home to do some farming 1.00

00:24:44.580 so they tortured her, she denied

00:24:47.060 she kept denying because what happens is that

00:24:48.940 as you keep denying, they keep torturing you

00:24:51.220 to the point you admit

00:24:52.820 so this woman denied 1.00

00:24:55.160 and keep denying, they tortured her

00:24:57.380 and I must tell you, you know, I just have to tell you

00:24:59.840 I'm sorry, I have to tell you how she died

00:25:01.920 because it was not really something good to hear

00:25:04.080 but it is also good to let the world

00:25:06.040 understand what is going on

00:25:07.720 because that's exactly what I'm doing

00:25:09.200 so I was told, the children told me

00:25:11.600 one of them was there when the mother was killed

00:25:13.720 you know, first of all they caught the palm

00:25:16.060 because she was trying to hold and all that

00:25:17.860 they caught the palm, they caught the tummy 0.99

00:25:20.040 and all that 1.00

00:25:21.180 and before she now bled to death

00:25:23.240 and they went and buried the woman in the bush

00:25:26.420 And luckily, we were able to work with the local human rights group.

00:25:30.920 We have a partner organization there who worked with the police.

00:25:34.600 And they were able to make some arrests.

00:25:36.860 And they now went and showed where the woman was buried.

00:25:39.900 So the woman's corpse was being exhumed.

00:25:42.500 And the case is ongoing in court now.

00:25:44.800 And again, it is not just only women that are attacked and killed.

00:25:49.060 Also men are killed.

00:25:50.200 And there was a case we got in December.

00:25:53.000 A grandfather gave a piece of meat to the grandchild.

00:25:55.520 Because here, families live together.

00:25:57.540 So sometimes you see the grandfather, they try to give some food to the grandchildren.

00:26:02.640 So give some pieces of meat to the grandchild.

00:26:05.280 And due to, because of some suspicion and tension between the father and this uncle,

00:26:10.160 the man suspected that what was given to the child was to initiate him into the witchcraft world

00:26:16.280 and started questioning the child.

00:26:18.700 And the child claimed that he had been initiated by this uncle.

00:26:22.720 and what the man did was

00:26:24.620 confronted this man,

00:26:27.000 beat him up, he collapsed, he died, 0.77

00:26:29.320 he took the body into his hut 0.87

00:26:30.860 and set the hut ablaze

00:26:32.480 and all of that.

00:26:34.860 After that, now took the remains

00:26:36.580 and buried in a shallow grave.

00:26:38.440 You see, this thing I'm telling you is not something that happened

00:26:40.740 two years ago, three years ago.

00:26:42.280 I said this happened in the past few months.

00:26:44.660 And of course, because of the publicity

00:26:46.480 we have, they bring this news to us.

00:26:49.040 Now, lastly,

00:26:49.940 I know that I don't want to traumatize you a lot.

00:26:52.520 I know I must have done that. I'm sorry. But let me just give you the one last one.

00:26:56.580 It's interesting because in September, we tried holding a seminar in one of the states,

00:27:02.220 in they call it Benway State in northern Nigeria. And the police sent their officers to come and

00:27:09.340 stop us. They said that we're having a meeting of witches and we will not hold it. In fact,

00:27:15.640 they told us that witches will never meet in their state. So we tried to explain to them,

00:27:21.060 we are trying to address a problem and this is a problem that police officers should be addressing

00:27:26.240 but because they have not been addressing it we are trying to fill in that gap but they insisted

00:27:30.720 and they even did not hold in september but i said that we are not going to retreats because

00:27:36.560 this is what has happened over the years because people have retreated people have moved back and

00:27:42.000 when the police came or people tried to intimidate them or threaten them they would beat them up or 0.99

00:27:46.080 they will attack and kill them. People have been dying. So we tried to reschedule the event in 0.99

00:27:52.060 December. So when we went there in December, no one allowed us. I had to persist. And eventually

00:27:58.180 we had to hold that meeting. And I must tell you, at that meeting, somebody came and told us how he

00:28:02.940 was accused and almost killed by the son. And he survived. What happened? About two, three weeks

00:28:09.040 later, we got the news that some witch hunters went to a village because somebody died in the

00:28:14.840 village and adopted this elderly man and set him ablaze yes and he was burning in the middle of the

00:28:21.880 night so the man was weeping pleading and all that the children one of them a very brave courageous

00:28:28.780 daughter he has was pleading trying to get the police and they were able to get some police

00:28:33.760 officers of course after collecting some money from her so they were able to rescue the man and

00:28:39.120 take the man to the hospital so the news now came to us so when the news came to us in fact

00:28:44.820 we had to report to the same police officer that wanted to arrest us. We had to now get back to

00:28:52.320 them. And they now had to get back to us to assist them now in addressing the same problem. So those

00:28:58.640 who wanted to work against us, stop us now, started cooperating with us. So this was just like a

00:29:04.100 victory. For me, that's one of the best things that has happened this year. So immediately they

00:29:08.620 moved in now. We gave them all the necessary information. And initially they wanted to

00:29:12.940 collect some bribe from the

00:29:15.040 victim. Imagine somebody burnt,

00:29:17.600 not seen injuries in the hospital,

00:29:19.160 the police still wanted to collect some bribe

00:29:20.920 before going to make arrests. So

00:29:22.800 I got so angry,

00:29:25.000 I had to petition the police

00:29:26.920 authority. I said, look, this is what is going on.

00:29:29.640 Of course, they later denied

00:29:30.920 that it was an officer

00:29:32.460 who wanted to do something on his own.

00:29:35.140 But what happened is that they eventually

00:29:36.840 went, mobilized, and got five

00:29:38.900 of the suspects arrested, including

00:29:40.940 one of them who wanted to come

00:29:42.920 and attack and kill the man in the hospital.

00:29:45.520 Because when the man was taken to the 1.00

00:29:46.960 hospital, one of them came from the village 1.00

00:29:49.080 and wanted to come and attack and kill 0.87

00:29:50.920 the man in the hospital. In fact, he was the first person 0.94

00:29:53.140 they arrested.

00:29:54.600 So when they arrested them, now

00:29:56.580 the community started putting pressure

00:29:58.300 on the family so that they could

00:30:00.900 release them and that they should

00:30:02.580 resolve it. They should bring the case back

00:30:04.820 home and let's resolve it in a

00:30:06.880 family way. I told them that's not how

00:30:08.820 to resolve this in a family way. You want

00:30:10.920 to resolve something in a family where you set somebody ablaze and the person had wounds all over

00:30:15.580 the body, the stomach, everywhere. Is that how to resolve things? So I told them it was too late

00:30:20.020 to have a family resolution. The law would take place. And of course, we couldn't have done that.

00:30:25.300 The daughter stood her ground that they were not going to go into any kind of settlement,

00:30:31.240 that they were really going to go to the court. So we were so happy and all that. So eventually,

00:30:36.140 i put pressure on the police and all that we put pressure on the police and the case was you know

00:30:41.400 charged to court and the suspects we are on rebound as we speak right now can i ask you i'm

00:30:47.160 slightly confused by this so it's it's traditional healers or spiritualists or priests or that you

00:30:53.080 say there are various names that are then accusing other people of witchcraft yeah what happens is

00:30:59.600 that when you suspect witchcraft in other words something happens to you somebody dies you think

00:31:06.020 that oh this must not be natural because there's always within the local narratives there's always

00:31:12.640 this idea that no this death is not ordinary there must be something behind it is out of the normal

00:31:17.960 when you make that suspicion you go to these so-called traditional healers who are traditional

00:31:24.500 spiritualists you know who would now do some kind of divination of course based on the information

00:31:29.880 you are giving them because these guys not they don't know anything i must let you know they just

00:31:34.700 have a way of getting you to give them some information and from the information you have

00:31:39.460 given them they will not tell you ah there's somebody in the family who is really behind this

00:31:44.880 problem and you people have to take some measures against it yeah using the information you have

00:31:49.620 given you know in a way that it will be as if they have rendered a service and they have really told

00:31:54.380 you the solution to the problem so these people will not get back yeah i don't understand how

00:31:59.660 that's any different to being a witch i don't see that i don't really see the difference because

00:32:04.740 they're both using magic again i'm making quotation marks around using and magic when

00:32:10.120 i'm speaking to you but they're both doing a very similar thing i don't understand do they

00:32:14.240 are they saying that the traditional healer is working with god and that the witch is working

00:32:20.220 with the devil or is it does it not have that same construct no here actually the word which

00:32:26.840 is not mentioned during this period i want to let you know right which is something we are is it

00:32:32.680 like a descriptive level we are using to describe what's going on what happens is that oh somebody

00:32:37.860 has died no no no no no this is not an ordinary one nobody will mention the word which right let's

00:32:44.040 go and find out who is responsible and off they go to the so-called experts who looks into the

00:32:49.580 supernatural world excuse me who claim to have the part interact with spirit and now when they go

00:32:54.520 they will now try to look at some stones, look at a few things and mention something that could

00:32:59.940 give you a kind of an idea as to, okay, is that man or is that woman who is responsible? Now with

00:33:07.360 some kind of vagueness and guesses and code reading and all sorts of techniques, they try to

00:33:12.400 get the people who have come to have some kind of, come to some kind of conclusion as who must be

00:33:17.360 responsible. But one thing I used to tell my friends in Europe is that throughout this period,

00:33:22.220 nobody will mention the word witch because they know what they're doing they know the language

00:33:26.820 they're speaking but we are using witch to frame all this kind of conversation going on in terms

00:33:33.120 of trying to make sense of how supernatural can be used the belief in supernatural can be used

00:33:38.880 to make sense of misfortune and is this way of people's beliefs does this predate when colonizers

00:33:45.660 came to mainland came to africa is this something that has been around for centuries and centuries

00:33:50.940 and centuries or is it something that's more recent it's something that has been there you

00:33:56.700 know what even while growing up before i even got to understand the word witch because

00:34:01.840 witch came with english language and when we are growing up we learn with the local language

00:34:06.880 so you even come to you know it's only when you get to school start learning english i don't

00:34:11.020 understanding english words and ten that you even come to tech you now know about witch and

00:34:15.700 witchcraft and all that otherwise this is something and i want to let you know this

00:34:20.100 is happening in very rural illiterate communities like the case that came today the women the

00:34:25.300 victims they have no telephone just to let you know they don't have access to the telephone they

00:34:29.540 don't have they can't afford telephone okay so this is something going on in what you can call

00:34:34.500 in terms of english english illiterate community people can't read and write english so as we are

00:34:39.940 saying witchcraft here now is because i come from that culture and i know that the concept witchcraft

00:34:45.620 communicates what is going on otherwise nobody mentions it now in a typical situation somebody

00:34:52.100 dies they will say they have killed him yes they have killed him that's all this kind of very

00:34:59.860 thought person you know in personalized way of speaking already imputes that there are some

00:35:05.780 people behind it now they will have to go somewhere to find out those people now everything about this

00:35:11.780 discussion and interaction, which craft and which is used to frame it. So that is a much

00:35:19.040 one could explain. And that's why it keeps going on, whether people actually believe

00:35:23.180 in traditional religion, or they believe in Christianity, or they believe in Islam, because

00:35:27.640 people keep getting confronted with situations they think that defies common sense and common

00:35:33.900 everyday explanation and reasoning.

00:35:37.100 And we see that absolutely everywhere worldwide, Leo, that when people come up against things they can't explain, they look for some other explanation.

00:35:49.800 And when they come up against things where they don't want to accept the truth or they don't want to accept the explanation and they want to blame someone, they look for a vulnerable person to blame.

00:36:02.720 exactly exactly that's that's exactly what is going on and what happens is that they may not

00:36:09.520 even mention the word witch or witchcraft in the course of this they are all looking for explanation

00:36:14.640 they're looking for solution they're looking for somebody to blame they're looking for something

00:36:18.440 something to make sense of a situation and there is this so-called expert or traditionalist or

00:36:24.540 priest i always don't like promoting these people so because sometimes i call them charlatans

00:36:28.840 because of the problem that are causing in the community.

00:36:31.280 But they claim to have this skill to provide you with explanation

00:36:36.040 and give you the idea as to who is responsible

00:36:39.240 and which is actually the root of the problem.

00:36:42.520 Yeah, yeah.

00:36:43.400 Leo, are things once again getting worse?

00:36:46.960 The reason why I ask you is you mentioned Malawi

00:36:49.460 and I know that the Malawi Legal Review gave a paper,

00:36:55.340 so the professional body which reviews the law

00:36:57.780 gave a paper to the government to consider to bring back in the witchcraft legislation there 0.90

00:37:03.440 because they said their rationale was people believe in it and it's much better to have the

00:37:09.880 law involved than not involved and you can kind of see that but you can also see it's bad to put

00:37:17.360 it back on the books again because then it makes it official again so so I'm wondering you know

00:37:23.000 First of all, what's your view on that?

00:37:24.600 And secondly, are things getting worse again?

00:37:27.800 Well, I've always keep addressing this issue of getting worse.

00:37:31.100 And I let people understand that it's something that I don't actually,

00:37:35.880 I don't know how to put it.

00:37:37.040 Because right now, we have some cases from Zimbabwe as we speak.

00:37:40.780 We are still handling that. 0.96

00:37:41.740 In this case, it was some children, they killed their father.

00:37:44.900 Because one of them died as a result of what they call witchcraft.

00:37:49.420 They thought it was the father that was responsible.

00:37:51.500 so they killed their father. We have a case

00:37:53.740 in Zambia

00:37:55.160 it was also brought to us

00:37:56.980 just in the past 3-4 weeks

00:37:59.640 we have these cases from Zambia

00:38:01.340 and Zimbabwe. In Zimbabwe

00:38:03.440 we sent one of us to go and do some more investigation

00:38:05.800 meet with the widow 0.94

00:38:07.800 and see what we can do to just

00:38:09.700 try to provide some sense of solidarity

00:38:11.880 and support. In Zimbabwe

00:38:13.920 what we, sorry, in Zambia

00:38:15.740 what we have is a case of

00:38:17.000 a moving coffin. I know this

00:38:19.700 might not be part of the English witchcraft

00:38:22.040 narratives, but here

00:38:23.380 during funeral, when they suspect

00:38:25.900 that somebody was killed, they may not go to

00:38:27.820 the witch hunters or diviners.

00:38:30.360 They bring this special 0.98

00:38:31.740 they call them Paul

00:38:33.780 people who carry the coffin

00:38:35.440 on their heads.

00:38:37.500 Now when they carry the coffin, they make some

00:38:39.680 incantation and they will now tell the dead

00:38:41.680 person amongst the crowd

00:38:43.520 that the dead person should identify the

00:38:45.700 person who killed him or her

00:38:47.620 as the case may be.

00:38:48.560 okay now they will be moving they said oh no it's not the cops that will be controlling the

00:38:53.380 movement and they will eventually go and hit hit somebody with the with the coffin and the person

00:39:00.340 hit by that coffin is they will now mob that person beat the person up and what the information

00:39:06.780 with us reaching us is that in january two people were killed you know as a result of that three

00:39:12.660 people injured and since last year they said that over nine people have been killed and many more

00:39:17.680 injured as a result of that and you know what happens this practice is in some parts of nigeria

00:39:23.300 they do they conduct this kind of practice in nigeria and look at it zambia is just far far

00:39:28.980 down there in southern africa and you ask yourself how many what happened how did this get here

00:39:35.680 it's about six seven hours flight just like me coming to europe and all that it's like me going

00:39:40.560 to zambia but it's going on there and we have it here and they do it in ghana okay i know that

00:39:46.720 the route in Ghana where I did my field work.

00:39:48.880 So you see them all these practices.

00:39:50.880 What happens is that today

00:39:52.320 we have this kind of information

00:39:54.500 technology that

00:39:56.480 allows us to keep track

00:39:58.520 of these events or

00:40:00.640 these incidents more than in the past.

00:40:03.280 So should I say

00:40:04.500 it's getting worse? Maybe.

00:40:06.580 But I think that there is something we have today

00:40:08.420 we didn't have in the past, which is ability

00:40:10.660 to get this, tracking this

00:40:12.640 event going on in Malawi, Zambia

00:40:14.660 and other parts of the

00:40:16.540 country at the same time. So that is the only way I can put it. But I think it's a pervasive

00:40:20.960 issue. And maybe I think that just like what we're doing now, we are putting together a kind

00:40:27.580 of a robust mechanism to address it, what has been quite pervasive, hoping that it will go down.

00:40:33.560 Otherwise, it's something going on in many places that we can track as we speak.

00:40:38.580 So what can you do to tackle it? Is it a case of education and making the police and the law

00:40:43.460 courts follow things through with people that have attacked people that have been accused

00:40:47.460 yeah we are working on what what i call right now a theory of change based on what is going on

00:40:55.040 first of all we call it information information approach information and action because in one

00:41:02.460 sense there is lack of information there's misinformation there's disinformation when

00:41:07.700 somebody dies you say that he's an old woman in the village or in the community fairly frail

00:41:13.000 that is responsible, that's misinformation, you know, that's ignorance of the situation.

00:41:18.300 Also, ignoring what is actually the real explanation of the course, you know, like Claire just

00:41:25.060 mentioned, you know, somebody tells you this is as much of carelessness by the drivers

00:41:29.720 or mechanical faults on the car.

00:41:31.880 You say, no, no, no, no, no, somebody must be behind this mechanical fault.

00:41:35.700 Why must this car break down?

00:41:37.000 This car has been going along and has not had accidents over the years.

00:41:40.560 Somebody must be behind.

00:41:41.560 So sometimes there is this reluctance to accept what is actually the commonsensical explanation.

00:41:47.460 So we have to do the information kind of campaign, trying to get people to know about the causes of death.

00:41:53.960 And again, information as to where to go.

00:41:56.280 Yes, when somebody dies, where do you go?

00:41:58.980 You go to a local person, traditional medicine person, an illiterate that didn't go to any school.

00:42:04.700 What do you expect?

00:42:05.800 You say spirits are responsible.

00:42:07.540 Demons are responsible.

00:42:08.900 Devils are responsible. 1.00

00:42:09.840 Witches are responsible. 0.99

00:42:10.980 because these are things that you can really deliver to people 1.00

00:42:14.380 and get them to part with their money

00:42:16.040 in the name of rendering them services.

00:42:18.480 Again, also, we also have to inform the police.

00:42:21.460 I told you the incident, we have the police.

00:42:23.400 But many police officers are also believers 0.92

00:42:25.420 and they are reluctant also to act.

00:42:28.640 So we have to educate them.

00:42:29.660 Even the human rights campaigners,

00:42:31.300 some of them are telling me, change your name.

00:42:33.640 Your name is not advocacy for alleged witches.

00:42:36.800 A lot of people will not identify with you.

00:42:39.600 I said, I will have to educate them to identify with me because that is where the thing starts.

00:42:44.500 I told them, we are not changing this name until it has done its work, which is educate people.

00:42:50.060 Let people understand that when you hear witches, you shouldn't be afraid.

00:42:54.080 You shouldn't start looking for something to hit or attack the person.

00:42:57.500 You should actually, you know, treat the person just like every other human being and all that.

00:43:02.960 So we are trying to do the education part.

00:43:05.920 Again, we have the action part, because if you watch too often when people are attacked, people will be surrounded. 0.91

00:43:13.040 Like in Ghana, in 2021, a woman, Akwa Dante, was publicly clawed to death and killed by the grandchild and a traditional female priestess.

00:43:26.140 okay in kenya it openly we had a case in kenya whereby a grandchild went and used machete

00:43:32.900 to cut the grandmother openly in the field to death you know and people were watching

00:43:38.320 nobody rushed to hold this crazy man and really get him into an asylum into you know let him be

00:43:44.560 properly examined or put in jail you know it happens so there is that inaction we want

00:43:50.700 where people have to know

00:43:53.080 that when people are being attacked 0.95

00:43:54.860 in the name of witchcraft, they should see it as their

00:43:56.960 responsibility. The police should go in.

00:43:59.460 Police usually come in after

00:44:00.900 the act and start reacting and start

00:44:02.980 making an address. Why can't you come in

00:44:04.840 before? Because this has been going on.

00:44:07.200 So we also want to make sure that

00:44:08.680 first of all, on one hand, information

00:44:10.800 is out there. We have been telling

00:44:12.860 the World Health Organization, you were

00:44:15.000 informing us about the causes

00:44:16.780 of COVID and how to manage it. 1.00

00:44:18.960 Africans need their special 1.00

00:44:20.600 information program when it comes 1.00

00:44:22.700 to diseases and death, you know,

00:44:24.640 and all that, and that they should not link

00:44:26.580 it to witchcraft

00:44:28.180 beliefs or witches or

00:44:30.420 witchcraft accusations. But of course

00:44:32.660 they're not listening to me. They

00:44:34.420 still have this belief that it is Africa

00:44:36.480 and all that, and I don't know how they arrived

00:44:38.560 at that, and that's also part and parcel

00:44:40.640 of what we're trying to address. So

00:44:42.640 we are hoping that with a lot

00:44:44.700 of information, addressing

00:44:46.780 the misinformation, addressing the

00:44:48.540 disinformation out there also informing the police what their duties are and what they're supposed to

00:44:54.040 do and also getting them also to act act on time because look this thing is a time is of essence

00:45:00.560 when it comes to acquisitions of witchcraft sometimes we get the reports as late as nine

00:45:05.140 o'clock in the night 12 midnight we are calling we are calling the police just to make sure that

00:45:09.980 we you know they move in as early as possible before somebody is dead so we want to get them

00:45:15.540 in terms of action, you know, we also want to say in terms of reformation,

00:45:19.140 we believe that with these two approaches, you know,

00:45:21.860 we will be able to close in and begin the process of really beating back

00:45:26.360 and, you know, dispelling, you know, this vicious phenomenon

00:45:30.180 that is really destroying and backening the region.

00:45:33.820 What can we do in Scotland to support you?

00:45:36.600 I want to tell you, honestly, I'm so excited with what is going on in Scotland.

00:45:41.060 Much more than you guys, you know.

00:45:43.280 You know why?

00:45:44.160 Because, yes, yes, you may not know.

00:45:46.400 You may not know.

00:45:47.080 And I'm saying it and I am in it.

00:45:48.640 Okay?

00:45:49.260 Look, you don't know for how long I've been looking for people who connect with what I'm doing.

00:45:54.180 People who understand what I'm doing.

00:45:55.720 People who can feel it.

00:45:57.200 Too often when I interact with Europeans and Westerners, they say, ah, for Africans, witchcraft is not superstition.

00:46:04.260 You know, that is something else for us.

00:46:06.380 And the thing breaks my heart.

00:46:08.000 Because I want to tell them about the people who are being killed every day, thrown into the grave.

00:46:12.600 they are butchered like animals

00:46:14.920 that's not

00:46:16.160 it's not science to them, it's horror

00:46:18.520 it's horrific, you get it

00:46:20.880 so that is why they campaign

00:46:22.760 for pardon, for

00:46:24.100 erecting a monument, or exoneration

00:46:26.820 of witches

00:46:27.420 in Europe and

00:46:30.320 of course in the United States

00:46:32.020 it was like, oh at last

00:46:34.200 this is something that connects

00:46:36.300 with the reality I'm facing here

00:46:38.180 not something that, you know, if you read

00:46:40.460 the anthropological text, it's like

00:46:42.320 and entertainment. Oh, for us

00:46:44.400 in the West, witchcraft is

00:46:46.140 superstition. Ah, for Africans, 1.00

00:46:48.220 it's this. The person who starts writing and writing, 1.00

00:46:50.320 the next thing, they give him a professor in one

00:46:52.220 African Studies Department and all that.

00:46:54.140 It's a shame, I must tell you. So that 1.00

00:46:56.280 is why what you are doing is, Scott, I said

00:46:58.340 keep doing it, keep doing it,

00:47:00.500 keep doing it. If there's anything

00:47:02.400 I can do from here, I can push,

00:47:04.680 I can, you know, put it there. What you

00:47:06.380 are doing, just keep doing it. Because it

00:47:08.260 draws attention to the real fact we are

00:47:10.380 facing here. It is not funny.

00:47:12.940 People's lives, people are dying.

00:47:14.800 People are being killed.

00:47:15.740 People are macheted to death.

00:47:17.460 Some women go to prison on their own

00:47:19.900 to run away from being attacked and killed.

00:47:22.180 In the north of Ghana,

00:47:23.360 people abandon their homes 0.99

00:47:24.720 and go to make sheep shepherds.

00:47:27.240 And you know what they call the place? 0.99

00:47:28.440 Witch camps.

00:47:29.280 These places are not witch camps.

00:47:31.020 But you know, they give it an English name

00:47:32.820 that misrepresents the situation

00:47:34.800 and makes those of you in the West

00:47:37.040 to look at this and say,

00:47:38.140 what is wrong with these Africans? 0.55

00:47:39.720 Okay, and all that. 1.00

00:47:40.880 So nobody has challenged it.

00:47:42.320 And if you want to challenge it, they make you understand, this has been going on. 0.84

00:47:46.320 We have been having this witch camp all the way. 0.85

00:47:47.680 What do you think you know? 1.00

00:47:48.980 I know a lot.

00:47:50.400 Yes, I know a lot about what is going on in Rifa.

00:47:53.220 In those things they call witch camps, people die there.

00:47:56.200 A woman I met there on a visit, by the time I came back, they said that she was beaten by an insect and she died.

00:48:03.060 That was all.

00:48:04.160 Because the place is not habitable, but they have to be there.

00:48:07.540 Otherwise, they're dead.

00:48:09.240 So what am I trying to say?

00:48:10.700 what you are doing there is encouraging me is encouraging us and for instance the church of

00:48:15.980 scotland they issued an apology regretted their role i am using it already in talking to the

00:48:22.160 churches here i said look at what the church of scotland has done can you please begin to emulate

00:48:27.820 that don't forget these are those who brought the christianity to us because sometimes they

00:48:32.080 try to tell you oh it's my faith is my bible tells me this i said the same bible we are using

00:48:38.500 the church of scotland is using it but they have apologized why can't you stop first of all stop

00:48:44.000 before even apologizing you need to stop so i'm using it now to talk to the churches to engage

00:48:49.680 the pastors to engage the you know christians and also what the government did you know by

00:48:54.640 rendering apology i'm also using that to engage the politicians don't just look at where this

00:48:58.880 thing is going on look at what the government of scotland is doing country related and begin

00:49:03.640 to do something so what am i trying to say right there what you can do occasionally of course we

00:49:09.240 can have this interview get updated on what is going on but what you are doing to erect a memorial

00:49:14.980 which i hope will will materialize someday and i'll have opportunity to visit and at least put

00:49:21.260 my hand there or put my head there and all that and let them understand that it is not just what

00:49:27.760 people in scotland women many women suffered centuries ago you know that is being remembered

00:49:33.700 but the ongoing suffering in the world and that we should not rest we should not give up until

00:49:40.260 you know that kind of memory that kind of pardon that kind of a sense of justice has come to other

00:49:47.260 women and other victims of witch persecution everywhere including africa leo there is no

00:49:53.680 better point to

00:49:55.720 make than the one that you've just

00:49:57.820 made and there's no better way to see it

00:49:59.760 we want to thank you so very

00:50:01.720 much for all the work that you do

00:50:03.600 and all the people that you try and help

00:50:05.540 that are accused in this terrible way

00:50:07.940 and we will stay in

00:50:09.700 contact and if anything that we can do

00:50:11.980 to help please do

00:50:13.700 let us know and we'll do everything in our power

00:50:15.740 to do that but until next time

00:50:17.540 thanks very much Liam

00:50:18.920 Thanks so much

00:50:23.680 for joining us this week on the witches of scotland podcast as ever we are delighted when

00:50:28.900 people get in touch with us on different social media platforms um or they send like a carrier

00:50:34.440 pigeon or there's like you know bat lights or whatever your your way is a carrier pigeon would

00:50:39.440 totally get faster than me on instagram i'm so so sorry honestly and in fact we do need to say

00:50:44.900 sort of a general we're kind of sorry how slow we've been recently claire's working on massive

00:50:50.660 cases i've got a massive social life and we're trying we're stupid not really but also sort of

00:50:57.720 a wee bit but we're just we're just trying to get through all the different things please bear in

00:51:01.880 mind that it's literally just claire and me there we've no intern we've no committee we've no

00:51:07.600 volunteers it's just me and claire claire has a really serious important job you have a really

00:51:13.240 serious important job it's not like your job i mean my job is sort of locally serious and um

00:51:18.080 sort of important to me but it's not like your job is but we're we've just gone through an incredibly

00:51:22.760 busy period just now so if we've said to you hey would you like to come on the show and then you've 0.95

00:51:26.760 never heard anything again please would you get in touch with us because we're idiots and although

00:51:30.420 we use our filofaxes we're not very good at using our filofaxes so if if we've been in touch and 0.53

00:51:36.040 then it's been radio silence would you please get in touch and remind us that we said because if we

00:51:40.640 meant it in fairness i do still have a list which we are trying to work through but yeah bear with

00:51:46.620 and also our having a podcast every two weeks.

00:51:50.520 We're trying.

00:51:51.640 We're trying.

00:51:52.280 We are.

00:51:52.780 As my dad always used to say to me,

00:51:54.220 yes, Zoe, very trying.

00:51:56.580 Anyway.

00:51:57.500 On that note.

00:51:58.040 Lovely to have you all here again.

00:52:00.860 And we'll see you hopefully in two weeks.

00:52:03.020 Who knows?

00:52:03.920 We might be good to our word.

00:52:05.980 We're trying.

00:52:07.560 Cheerio.

00:52:08.380 Bye.

00:52:13.800 If you'd like to learn more about the Witches of Scotland,

00:52:16.620 Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

00:52:19.780 Sign up for our mailing list at www.witchesofscotland.com

00:52:25.080 to keep updated with the campaign.

00:52:27.720 On that site, you'll be able to find how to link with us

00:52:30.340 on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.

Witches of Scotland - June 03, 2023

EPISODE 68 - MODERN WITCHCRAFT ACCUSATIONS AND TRIALS WITH LEO IGWE ： WARNING DISCUSSES VIOLENCE

Episode Stats

Transcript