Breaking the Boy Code - The Bro Code Versus the Boy Code

00:00:00.000 yeah okay so the recording is now going which is great and but we we'll take we'll get started

00:00:07.360 slowly does anybody remember what do i even want to start with

00:00:16.800 wait did you do the i did let's start with some introductions so start with just one two three

00:00:23.200 introduce yourself just say like the introduction we did you know sure yeah

00:00:29.920 so say your name your grade and what your goal is in this podcast

00:00:35.040 sure we could do that why not who wants to go first

00:00:53.200 Hi there. Welcome to the podcast.

00:00:59.380 My name is Jonathan. I'm the director of programs with Next Gen Men.

00:01:03.020 And I'm the creator of the Breaking the Boy Code podcast.

00:01:06.080 If you're not new to this project, welcome back.

00:01:09.460 We did it. Season four, we're back online. We're back on track.

00:01:13.560 I'm so grateful to have you here as part of this community.

00:01:17.380 I'm so grateful that there are other people valuing

00:01:19.840 that the lives of boys, their voices, their opinions, perspectives, and experiences.

00:01:25.480 If you're new to this podcast, welcome. It started in about 2018 as a personal project

00:01:31.420 centered on the emotional lives of boys. Actually, I don't know if I've shared this before.

00:01:36.580 Essentially, several years ago, I bicycled 15,000 kilometers over the span of about five and a half

00:01:42.560 months from the Atlantic to the Arctic to the Pacific Ocean. And I thought I would listen

00:01:46.860 mostly to music. But it kind of turned out there's only so much music that you can take. So

00:01:51.400 I started listening to podcasts, and one of my passions was toxic masculinity, positive

00:01:56.400 masculinity, and what does that look like in our culture. And I found some really cool podcasts,

00:02:00.900 including some that are today part of the Next Gen Men podcast network. But the gap that I felt

00:02:05.620 was, where are boys' voices themselves? Who's amplifying those in order for them to be part

00:02:13.320 of the conversation on positive masculinity. So that brought me to this project, and it's taken

00:02:19.780 a few different shapes over the years. And the latest is this project that my past colleague

00:02:27.100 Adrian and I took on in about 2020-2021. The goal was to produce a season informed by

00:02:35.320 intersectionality, giving boys an opportunity to share their experiences with the, giving boys

00:02:43.120 an opportunity to share their experiences at the intersection of masculinity and race.

00:02:49.520 Like I mentioned, that was back in 2021. So we kind of went through the waves of the pandemic

00:02:54.980 and we were able to finish the recording process with our group of youth, but some of it was in

00:03:01.520 a studio, some of it was online, some was in the library with masks on. And, you know, we kind of

00:03:06.840 ended up with this pile of footage and, and, and not, and if I'm being honest, not a real strong

00:03:12.200 plan for what to do with it. And around that time, I kind of had to transition to, I guess,

00:03:19.540 a focus on just sort of keeping the organization afloat. Maybe that's a bit of a dramatic way to

00:03:24.080 put it, but the fact is that the podcast became a thing that just felt too daunting to pull back

00:03:29.780 off the shelf. But I never forgot it because of this, I guess I'll say cognitive dissonance of

00:03:41.520 that like my passion, right, is boys themselves and the purpose of this whole project. The podcast

00:03:47.960 over the years has been about amplifying boys' voices and saying to other people,

00:03:52.140 you need to spend the time to listen. It matters. But then somehow I couldn't find the time to do

00:03:59.460 the same myself? I mean, I guess I learned firsthand it is not easy to find that time,

00:04:06.540 to find the energy, the emotional wherewithal.

00:04:10.860 Like, I couldn't do it for a couple of years straight

00:04:13.700 in terms of this podcast project.

00:04:15.880 So this is a genuine shout-out to parents, teachers, coaches,

00:04:19.240 like those who are operating at the edge of their reserve capacity

00:04:22.880 to just keep up.

00:04:24.280 I get it.

00:04:26.860 Even more now than I used to.

00:04:28.560 You are seen.

00:04:31.180 I'm lucky to work at an organization that centers itself

00:04:34.040 on valuing boys' involvement in the conversation.

00:04:36.540 And so as the years went by, the projects that we took on, there was always, every now and then, the conversation of can we find the time, can we find the capacity to bring this podcast back online?

00:04:50.000 Because it matters. Because, Jonathan, you've got to make this happen.

00:04:53.600 We made a commitment to those boys and to the significance of exploring race and masculinity.

00:04:59.660 So I'm here, sitting in a closet in my apartment in downtown Toronto, and I'm inviting you to join me as I wade back through the audio footage, what we've got, and explore the insights that were shared with, that came from these conversations with a group of boys years ago.

00:05:22.520 None of it is perfect.

00:05:24.700 I'll be honest, like, I'll be honest up front.

00:05:27.100 it is worthwhile. Because working with boys is never about perfection, right? I've seen that

00:05:35.120 firsthand. It is always just about taking one step along the way. So this is our step.

00:05:44.300 And to Sadiq, Betsa, Akshayin, Yoel, and Kamari, if any of you are listening to this however many

00:05:49.520 years later, I'm genuinely sorry it took me so long. I appreciate you. I honor you. And I hope

00:05:56.860 the best for wherever you are right now. The first recording I picked up, well, as far as I can tell,

00:06:07.280 we're sitting together at a library table and I think we're wearing masks. Like we've, we've

00:06:12.200 actually known each other for several weeks at this point, but we got, we went through several

00:06:17.620 COVID related delays and relocations and that kind of thing. So we're kind of like reintroducing

00:06:22.260 ourselves and reintroducing the podcast. I'm with three of the boys, Sadiq, Betsa, and Akshayan.

00:06:36.800 Okay, Sadiq. Hello, my name is Sadiq. I'm 12 years old, and my goal in this podcast is to

00:06:46.320 let people hear my stories um my parents my parents are like from north africa they're

00:06:55.440 from sudan like my background is sudan sudanese i'm born in toronto i think like my mom said her

00:07:02.880 like like great great great great great great uh like uh grandparents are like a little bit ethiopian

00:07:10.400 so i'm like like one percent ethiopian or something yeah that's what my mom told me

00:07:14.480 Hi, my name is Betsa. I'm 13 years old and my goal for this podcast is to use it to take me

00:07:22.400 other places. I like use it as a tool or something. I'm a Congolese and a Canadian.

00:07:31.840 Like I was born in Canada, but my background is Congolese. Like both of my parents are from Congo

00:07:36.980 and I'm a black male, brown eyes, dark hair.

00:07:44.960 Able-bodied.

00:07:47.100 I'm 6'7 and a half.

00:07:49.720 Oh, really?

00:07:52.500 Hi, my name is Akshan.

00:07:55.420 I'm a grade 8.

00:07:56.520 The goal for this podcast, to me, is to use this as a tool,

00:08:03.460 like Bessayel said,

00:08:04.340 and hopefully it leads me to a better place in the future.

00:08:10.540 My parents were born from Sri Lanka, a small little country underneath India.

00:08:18.960 I'm brown, like light brown.

00:08:22.120 My eyes are brown.

00:08:23.740 I have straight hair.

00:08:24.700 I have hobbies like basketball.

00:08:27.720 and my dream is to like be seen in the NBA as a Sri Lankan

00:08:36.840 because not many Sri Lankan people are really famous.

00:08:42.060 Oh, my dream is to be the GOAT.

00:08:45.700 Okay, let's jump into, let's not get distracted with dreams,

00:08:48.800 although that's a good thing to be distracted by.

00:08:51.000 So this is Jonathan.

00:08:54.280 Man, what to say.

00:08:55.260 it's bright and early on a wednesday morning and we have done a check-in a warm-up we had a

00:09:03.100 paper airplane throwing contest which was style points were to sadiq distance points were to mr

00:09:10.520 webb slash kamari showmanship was definitely betza but who actually won was betza because i

00:09:16.880 I want to prefer this, you know?

00:09:18.080 No, no, no, no.

00:09:18.600 Is that a plan?

00:09:20.420 Because without, without...

00:09:21.740 You were the last player.

00:09:22.580 No, no.

00:09:23.020 Without Mr. Red, I would have been the champion.

00:09:26.400 But he knows physics.

00:09:28.040 He knows everything.

00:09:29.260 No, because he's like...

00:09:30.280 That's true.

00:09:31.180 In the youth category, you came first.

00:09:33.400 He's like old.

00:09:34.260 He knows how to make airplanes.

00:09:35.640 I'm a new boy.

00:09:36.480 So we did that this morning, and now we're getting started with the podcast.

00:09:39.460 And it's pretty exciting to be back together and to be finally sort of making this project

00:09:43.420 take shape once again.

00:09:44.880 in the midst of a pandemic and so what we're going to start with don't worry that's still

00:09:50.340 recording it just turns I think the screen just turned off. Now my colleague Adrian was on the

00:10:02.120 other side of the library with two other boys and he started his conversation by discussing

00:10:07.080 the background music for their personal introductions which I'm hopefully going to

00:10:11.820 find again in the audio footage a couple episodes later.

00:10:41.820 so what we'll do we'll do normal intros now and then at the end i'll give you some time just to

00:10:46.380 back out and pick up a different one as well okay all right so diving in so what we'll do

00:10:52.460 we'll start off with the introductions so over here i have a few prompts i'll show you my phone

00:11:00.060 i have a few prompts that you can do and i want you to just reflect and pick a prompt that you'd

00:11:03.740 like to do and you're just going to fill in like your name and your your energy your style

00:11:08.540 personally or like your piece of your piece of your personality okay if you really knew me you

00:11:14.260 would know that i'm the goat at what 0.91

00:11:17.700 what basketball do i need to spell it out for you though yes you do b a s k e t b a l l

00:11:36.660 down do you understand no i don't well what's that word mean grab the goat

00:11:44.660 cool right this is adrian from next gen men and we are thank you for joining our episode

00:11:51.940 of breaking the boy code here we have two amazing boys with us and we're going to be

00:11:57.460 diving into a few questions i'll allow them to space to introduce themselves

00:12:01.380 So starting off with Yoel. Hi my name is Yoel. In my free time I like sleeping. You can find me in

00:12:08.820 my bed sleeping. I join this podcast because I'm hoping to make a difference in people's minds.

00:12:15.940 Hello my name is Kamari. You can find me on the ball court school and kids and if you really knew

00:12:20.500 me you would know I want to become an animator. All right awesome thank you both. So the intention

00:12:28.260 of our conversation today is to dive into exploring what it means to be a boy and also

00:12:33.180 be able to explore our racial identities as well. So Yoel and Kumari, how would you say,

00:12:39.160 how do you identify when it comes to like your racial identity? I'm Jamaican. So I'm

00:12:45.980 Jamaican and I have a little bit of native in me. So yeah. And then I have a bit of

00:12:51.900 Jewish. I got a little bit of Jewish.

00:12:53.860 Hold on.

00:12:55.600 I identify as

00:12:57.380 an Eritrean Canadian

00:12:59.220 and I'm a black male. 0.98

00:13:01.500 Okay, perfect.

00:13:03.300 So with this, I have a few questions

00:13:05.580 that we're going to dive into.

00:13:07.240 My first question for you

00:13:08.840 is what we're going to do

00:13:11.180 is I'm going to be asking you a few prompts

00:13:13.040 and then you're going to take three to five minutes to write down

00:13:15.660 some of your

00:13:16.600 thoughts, your ideas. You can just do words,

00:13:19.840 do pictures.

00:13:21.140 What do you like best about being a boy?

00:13:24.460 For part of the first session, we talked about their experience with what it means to be a boy,

00:13:29.120 what they like about it, what they find challenging.

00:13:32.280 And it led to some really interesting insights about the world through their eyes.

00:13:37.220 Part of what I love about this conversation, listening back to it,

00:13:40.180 is how their personalities so quickly start to shine through their voices.

00:13:44.500 Betsa is fun-loving and quick and heading with confidence towards his vision of the NBA.

00:13:49.420 Akshayin is smart and reflective.

00:13:51.540 Sadiq is the youngest.

00:13:52.880 He's quieter than the others,

00:13:53.960 but still deeply thoughtful about his experiences with masculinity.

00:13:57.960 Yoel loves to joke.

00:14:01.020 Kamari is always ready with a story.

00:14:07.040 You know, and I can picture them.

00:14:10.040 I can picture ourselves in the big open space of the library

00:14:14.800 and the sounds of recess outside the windows

00:14:18.340 and the occasional bell ringing, interrupting our conversations.

00:14:22.620 You just have to walk into that space with me.

00:14:26.580 And my group, by the way, spent most of our time,

00:14:29.260 you know, during this particular recording,

00:14:32.140 talking about boyhood and stereotypes.

00:14:33.700 So remember, I was with, what did I say?

00:14:36.320 Betsa, Sadiq, and Akshayan.

00:14:37.760 So we spent most of our time talking about boyhood and stereotypes,

00:14:40.540 which is the focus of this episode,

00:14:42.360 whereas Adrian's group for this particular recording session,

00:14:46.040 Yoel and Kamari,

00:14:46.580 they spent most of their time talking about race and masculinity, which will be the next

00:14:50.480 episode. So if you're wondering what are the voices of those two end up, you'll hear them more

00:14:54.720 in the next piece. So you guys know that the podcast is published within like the field of

00:15:10.800 like education, mental health stuff. And there's also like people around the world talking about

00:15:15.780 boys and masculinity there's books that get written and like psychologists researchers

00:15:21.380 educators like there's a lot of people talking about boys and one of like the origins I might

00:15:26.900 have told you this a month ago but one of like the origins of the podcast was there's actually

00:15:30.860 not that many people who are actually listening to or hearing the voices of boys themselves and

00:15:36.700 so that's sort of what we're going to start with is yeah let's just like talk about boyhood let's

00:15:41.120 talk about our experiences and let's actually hear it from, you know, 11, 12, 13-year-olds

00:15:46.120 rather than what some researcher thinks they've discovered or what some writer or parent or

00:15:51.780 educator thinks they know. Because you guys are the experts about your own lives and experiences.

00:15:56.760 So the first question is, what do you like best about being a boy?

00:16:00.360 One of the best parts of being a boy is that you could go to the NBA and things like that

00:16:08.600 And you could basically just, I don't even.

00:16:17.400 I feel like just going to the NBA is the best part of being a boy to me

00:16:21.300 because that's my dream and that's my goal

00:16:23.900 and that's where I want to be in the future.

00:16:26.060 So that's, to me, the best part of being a boy.

00:16:29.680 Cool.

00:16:30.420 So for you, one of the best parts is that this whole dream is accessible to you.

00:16:34.320 Yeah, that's pretty interesting.

00:16:35.620 To me, what makes the NBA, which is boys, different from the WNBA?

00:16:41.440 Well, the WNBA, like, it's kind of, like, almost, like, sexist or something

00:16:49.220 because, like, they don't get paid as much as an average NBA player.

00:16:53.600 Like, an average WNBA player gets paid, like, $200,000.

00:16:57.880 And an average NBA player, like, if you're good, you get paid $3 million.

00:17:03.560 Yeah, $200 million.

00:17:04.240 and like I like I want to I want to be like I want to be good good and it's like the NBA I want to

00:17:12.300 I want to be like more like paid more attention because like there's like the NBA has way a lot

00:17:18.260 more fandom like systems like people like the NBA more than the WNBA because it's like

00:17:23.520 more famous but I don't know why but I just like the NBA because like I seen people like Michael

00:17:29.760 Jordan, Kobe Bryant, LeBron, Stephen Curry and they're like people that I look up to like they're like leaders and things like that and I just I thought that what they were doing was cool and they also had like a voice like like LeBron could talk talked about like he helped people like he did a charity like he had the money to like open charities and help kids out and I wanted to make the NBA like one day I could do what he's doing like I could have enough money to be put in a position to help other

00:17:59.740 people that are in need and things like that that don't have like enough money to do what they want

00:18:05.740 something but that's why i want to be in the nba too nice and all of that is part of your identity

00:18:12.620 as a boy like brett said nba but like like the world should treat people the same i don't know

00:18:22.780 why they did nba as like the top top and then the wnba the bottom like for the adult wnba players

00:18:31.340 they're like they're like middle class people like an average paying job yeah yeah yeah okay

00:18:38.620 so we have in the nba we have like status fans a higher wage but also just like it's like people

00:18:45.180 care more about it yes i also find that like in my friend like especially growing up but even still

00:18:51.900 today like most of my friends who like to do the same stuff that i do like sports are guys like i

00:18:57.020 don't have like when i was like at school in elementary school like i would always be playing

00:19:01.580 soccer playing basketball whatever it was and most girls weren't and so that for me would be something

00:19:07.340 that's i liked about being a boy was like all my friends like to play sports yeah having the

00:19:14.380 athleticism when it comes to sports like it just comes naturally like when it comes when it comes

00:19:20.620 to sports it just comes naturally like instead of having to like actually practice for most boys i

00:19:26.140 feel like it comes naturally at certain sports they're naturally good at a lot of girls are

00:19:30.220 athletic too but like being a boy is like like you said jonathan like a lot of your friends you

00:19:35.420 guys have like something in common and you guys have like something that you all let love doing

00:19:41.180 together and something like that so that's one of the good parts of being a boy yeah because

00:19:46.340 for some boys it's basketball otherwise it's minecraft yeah but i find that it's like that's

00:19:52.840 kind of another special thing is like having people who really share your interests and like

00:19:55.660 to do that stuff yeah okay so city you said you had stuff that came to mind for what do you wish

00:20:03.860 like what do you wish was different or what's challenging or what yeah what don't you like

00:20:08.500 It's, like, if I get, like, hurt very badly, like, I'd start crying, and, like, I told my dad what happened.

00:20:16.580 He, like, helped me, but he'd say, like, stop crying because, like, men don't cry, boys don't cry.

00:20:23.560 And, like, yeah.

00:20:26.660 And he doesn't, like, allow me to, like, grow my hair very, very big.

00:20:30.240 Like, because in grade three, I had, like, very, very big hair.

00:20:33.040 So then, like, I had to cut it.

00:20:35.620 Yeah.

00:20:36.020 so boys don't cry and boys can't have long hair so they can't like express their feelings or

00:20:42.220 something like that nope that's what you're saying that like that's the bad part and you

00:20:46.580 can't like colors like girl colors like pink they say earrings for girls yeah yeah okay let's list

00:20:55.700 so what if what else is not allowed so we have crying pink purple earrings long hair what else

00:21:01.900 is not allowed for guys? Nail polish. Nice. Nail polish? Some people. Makeup. Makeup? Yeah.

00:21:11.320 Doing girl sports. Yeah. Like ballerina. Tight clothes. Yeah. Ballet, tight clothes. Necklaces

00:21:19.140 sometimes. Yeah. Jewelry. I was going to say dancing. So you kind of got that with ballet.

00:21:23.360 Yeah. Dancing. I was going to say that. Acting like a girl. Yeah. Like what? Like girls

00:21:29.060 Stances like yeah, like like some people see like we're walking. Yeah walking like a girl 0.80

00:21:38.180 So standing like a girl walking like a girl 0.97

00:21:42.340 Talking like a girl

00:21:45.220 Writing like a girl you get you kind of like be like a girl stereotype kind of type of thing 0.91

00:21:51.260 What did you say a girl stereotype like let's say let's say a girl acts like that way and they use that

00:21:59.060 stereotype and then put it on men if they do it if i could change something or be the restrictions 0.99

00:22:04.980 of boys wearing like certain types of clothes because if i could wear it anywhere i want i'll

00:22:09.700 be rocking the kd pearls right now i'm just saying what are those you don't know what they are no

00:22:18.180 those are my dream basketball shoes but my parents won't get them because they say that people will

00:22:21.700 be in front of me because they're pink ah okay dive in tell me more about that so it's like

00:22:27.620 it's like these pink shoes that i really like it's like white bubbles kind of thing on it

00:22:32.660 it's like it's just kds but i like the colorway a lot that's dope do you see a lot of people

00:22:39.140 rocking them or have you seen a lot of people rocking them hmm kd only wore them once he was

00:22:42.900 actually going to say but i'm pretty sure he stopped ever since he went to brooklyn that's

00:22:46.660 why that's why if i could change that role i'll like change the restrictions of men what would

00:22:53.140 would you change if you were like oh that's a good question um

00:22:57.580 it was a hard question it is it is you know what to be real with you guys it'd be

00:23:07.980 the stigma about crying for me oh where you have to man up and so yeah you know i this is a bit of

00:23:17.400 a side have you seen have you heard of the show this is us have you heard of it i heard of it

00:23:21.200 actually i never watched it yo all right so i started watching it like a couple of weeks ago

00:23:26.080 and be honest and i have i've told like a few people that's like a part of my crew

00:23:31.160 but i was like i watched i was like yo there's some parts like i kind of cried and teared up at

00:23:35.980 it you know and like see you're laughing you're laughing but that's the thing it was like i can't

00:23:42.740 explain it to you guys but like i cried it actually kind of felt good you know it was like being able

00:23:46.860 to see it was like a death scene that was happening there it was just it was sad i don't want no

00:23:52.140 spoilers there's death scenes it was there's not a lot okay so but you know when you're getting

00:23:57.340 attached to like the favorite character yeah and they just die and they're like so mad about it

00:24:02.720 yeah is that what kind of happened it was kind of that but it built like this emotional relationship

00:24:07.220 with the person being able to see them and then they were just gone and then seeing the reactions

00:24:11.200 of people it just it hit but not being able like i can't it was such an interesting experience to

00:24:16.160 be able to have that but then being like i can't really tell all people i'm out here crying watching

00:24:21.480 this show you know what i mean so that would be the stigma there because i think if people had

00:24:25.680 the opportunity to be able to share these things like yo i had this reaction too i had that reaction

00:24:29.720 too it'd be different like it'd be different you just gotta be like a superman you know you gotta

00:24:36.860 be superman or like iron man and all that stuff yeah okay so what else goes along with you've

00:24:42.200 gotta be a superman that's hard well actually first of all what's good about being a superman

00:24:47.340 what do you like about like the strength strength sadiq having like the bravery yeah you like having

00:24:54.560 bravery having confidence yeah for me it would be like helping people yeah like if i was as

00:25:01.960 capable as superman like helping people would be something that i really liked

00:25:05.360 yeah so you have strength bravery confidence helping people

00:25:09.680 um trust nice yeah having honesty trustworthy yeah okay and then what would be hard if you

00:25:22.720 think of superman you think of like the pressure of being a superhero what would

00:25:25.980 you not like it's because like when you save somebody there's probably another person like

00:25:31.840 getting injured and you can't save them because like you can't save everybody right you can only

00:25:37.500 save like a few people yeah totally and sometimes you get stereotyped and say like hey why didn't

00:25:44.360 he save that guy why didn't he save this guy they don't realize the pain yeah because you can't just

00:25:50.800 go you're not flash right like you're not going it's not easy it's not quick movement you need

00:25:57.200 to live up like one of the bad things is that you need to live up to the expectations and

00:26:01.700 sometimes when you don't reach that people are gonna look at you like a different way and they're

00:26:06.120 gonna think of you differently and like not respect you as much even though it was like

00:26:11.680 out of your reach and like out of your power you couldn't do you couldn't help like Sadiq said and

00:26:16.660 actually and like you can't be everywhere at once but if you could you would have but like it's real

00:26:22.160 life though yeah so the pressure to try to be there for everybody and basically failing or

00:26:28.260 being looked at badly because you didn't

00:26:30.660 help this person behind you

00:26:32.280 when you were trying to help the person in front.

00:26:34.320 What else would be hard about being a Superman?

00:26:37.520 Small little mistakes

00:26:38.660 you make that

00:26:39.740 people take it big.

00:26:43.980 And they'll hold it

00:26:44.780 against you.

00:26:45.720 Let's say in the Spider-Man No Way Home

00:26:48.840 I'm spoiling just

00:26:50.620 the front bit.

00:26:51.820 I'm so spoiled.

00:26:53.460 I'm just saying the front bit.

00:26:54.980 It's just like how like

00:26:56.960 spider-man he tried to help the world no he tried to help the evil guys yeah and after that they

00:27:02.540 became more evil and the other spider-mans came from the other universe okay no no no not that

00:27:07.980 far i'm talking about the beginning okay i got carried away i got carried away the beginning

00:27:12.480 where like how like spider-man was um seen as a bad person because of how he like hurt mysterio

00:27:20.140 when he was like from like people's perspective he was like a really good man but they never knew

00:27:25.900 like the the things behind him that was from far um far away from home yeah in the beginning

00:27:32.220 the beginning of yeah yeah the mysterio reveals like they're like hunting spider-man like crazy

00:27:37.720 so you're saying the spider-man is is totally getting judged like yeah for something he did

00:27:43.840 yeah something good he did like he deceived the people like um he made it seem like because

00:27:49.340 mysterio he he was lying the whole time but in people's eyes it was like he was a true hero

00:27:55.000 He was like a fraud, basically.

00:27:57.500 Right.

00:27:58.900 Okay, so getting too deeply held accountable for either mistakes

00:28:05.380 or things that you did that people don't know the backstory to.

00:28:08.820 Yeah.

00:28:10.640 That'd be some heavy responsibility if you're Superman or Spiderman.

00:28:14.820 We did spoil the movie.

00:28:16.480 Not really.

00:28:17.900 I mean, people kind of know that's, like, the setup that he's getting blamed for Mysterio.

00:28:22.500 because there's no way home yeah and then betta yeah at the when he was talking about something

00:28:28.820 else what i'm talking about it's okay it's okay i got carried away okay anything else that comes

00:28:34.320 to mind if you think of like the pressure of being superman yeah responsibilities too

00:28:38.100 that's something that's good or something that's bad say let's say you have a mistake in

00:28:43.020 responsibility yeah like let's say like i don't know just one day like you just wake up and you're

00:28:49.100 too lazy and like, you can't just work,

00:28:51.440 you're sick and all that stuff and you stay home.

00:28:53.600 And then later, the next day you see like

00:28:56.080 all these issues rising and then yeah.

00:28:58.340 Oh.

00:28:59.180 Okay. Yeah. Responsibility.

00:29:00.960 The bad things is like the blame.

00:29:03.500 Cause if you weren't, if you didn't help them,

00:29:05.420 they'll blame it on you and it'll make you feel like bad.

00:29:09.660 It will hurt you.

00:29:10.980 Cause like, it wasn't your attention to like not help them.

00:29:14.340 Yeah.

00:29:15.360 But like, they'll just blame it on you.

00:29:17.000 Andy, Andy, Andy, Andy, it's harsh, it's harsh.

00:29:24.040 The one that I thought of was, um, you can't lose.

00:29:30.580 Yeah.

00:29:30.800 I think this goes for a lot of superheroes.

00:29:32.200 Like, you can't, as soon as you lose a fight, then everyone's going to take, like, everybody's

00:29:35.300 going to take advantage of you.

00:29:36.300 Like, that pressure to not, both not back down and not lose.

00:29:40.920 And I've definitely seen that among, like, not superheroes, but, like, boys who are,

00:29:45.720 like, they can't. 0.99

00:29:46.660 Like, if someone says, like, fuck you, they can't, like, ignore that. 1.00

00:29:50.860 Like, they have to, like, respond and, like, escalate and that kind of thing. 1.00

00:29:53.340 Because as soon as you back down, then you're weak.

00:29:54.840 Or if they fight, they're going to say, oh, you let them do that to you?

00:29:58.860 You have to do something.

00:29:59.680 And then they peer pressure you into fighting and you have to do it.

00:30:02.880 Yeah.

00:30:03.240 Basically, like what you said, they can't back down.

00:30:05.560 And they end up getting hurt because they knew they couldn't do it.

00:30:08.560 But the other person expected them to do it.

00:30:11.080 So they just did it because they wanted to just, like, I don't know.

00:30:16.660 be cool or think like they're not weak like probably like like insecurity or something like

00:30:24.420 that because they think of what other people um would think of them like they care about other

00:30:28.900 people would think of them if they if they don't want to fight but the other people would want them

00:30:33.140 to fight and after if they back down and they did the right choice people will start calling him 0.80

00:30:38.080 names like he's a wuss he's a girl or something or things like that so

00:30:43.520 yeah and like if you do fight even if you lose if you've like put in a good like sort of fearless

00:30:52.300 effort you're not going to get called names as badly as if you don't if you choose not to fight

00:30:57.820 or am i wrong is that right or is that yeah that's right

00:31:01.240 if you're a parent of a younger boy thinking of how to nurture positive masculinity as he grows up

00:31:10.900 we see you. We know gender norms are powerful from day one and one of the most important things

00:31:17.420 parents can do is start the conversation. That's why my colleagues and I at Next Gen Men wrote a

00:31:23.000 kid's book about masculinity. It's called A Kid's Book About Masculinity. I'm going to read you part

00:31:30.580 of the summary. It goes like this. What comes to mind when you think of masculinity? Certain ways

00:31:36.160 to act talk just simply be we believe masculinity is a story which can and should be told in more

00:31:44.240 than one way because when we do the world is a much fuller more beautiful place so if you have

00:31:51.540 a child or a nephew or you're going to a baby shower or let's be honest if you're just an adult

00:31:56.780 who wants a thoughtful little something in your life check it out it's called a kid's book about

00:32:01.440 Masculinity wherever you get books

00:32:03.400 or at shop.nextgenmen.ca

00:32:06.240 Does anybody have anything else that they jotted down

00:32:11.640 that they want to make sure they mention?

00:32:13.560 Or have you kind of covered everything that came to your minds?

00:32:16.980 I basically just said, like, I just put, like,

00:32:19.680 when I think about, like, the boyhood,

00:32:21.520 what comes in mind is, like, the bro code and things like that.

00:32:25.980 And after that, like, it's like a rule that you can't break

00:32:28.780 between your your bro slash like brother like a person you considered like very close to you

00:32:35.100 and it's like i hear a lot of people saying like bros before yeah and then like there's like

00:32:44.200 basically like what i said rules you can't break or it's like your trust you put onto a person and

00:32:50.280 like you can't you can't beat your best friend's ex or something like that and like and etc and

00:32:56.520 things like that well that's what comes yeah interesting okay let's talk a little bit about

00:33:01.720 that so where does the bro code land on things you like best and things that you that are hard

00:33:07.340 is it kind of a bit of both or is it one or the other it's a bit of both both i see it as a bit

00:33:13.060 of both too what were you gonna say sadiq i was gonna say like sometimes the bro code is like

00:33:18.460 like your best friend you can't like you can't replace your best friend with somebody else that

00:33:24.300 you like you want to know or like right how do i like like you just can't be like you can't have

00:33:32.600 like two best friends kind of stuff yeah yeah yeah so you pay attention to the other best friend

00:33:38.240 and not your like best best friend when you're actually like trying to make um friendship with

00:33:43.700 like another person but there's not there's not like there's more bro codes though like you can

00:33:49.160 have like a group of friends and you guys make like these rules together or is this like two

00:33:55.780 best um two things but it's just basically like when you create a bro code it's like a code it's

00:34:03.920 like it's like you have to stick to the rules or else you broke it and if you don't like they're

00:34:10.760 gonna your best friends are gonna look at you differently it's basically an algorithm yeah

00:34:15.820 okay so let's do pros and cons what are some of the good things about having a bro code

00:34:20.560 um it brings you guys closer nice like the con is like no we're doing pros first

00:34:27.740 yeah you're ready for these critiques so the pros is like it's kind of like bet says but like

00:34:34.920 you have to like stick together you can't break your friendship okay so closer together stronger

00:34:40.400 friendships exchange do you have a pro uh they just basically said it yeah you guys you like

00:34:47.940 get something off your chest or like something you don't want like you basically like the pros

00:34:53.860 is like you put your chest into them and you like feel comfortable with that person and you

00:34:58.360 call them like your brother and things like that nice okay what about some cons city a con is like

00:35:05.160 sometimes when your friend like talks too much like your best friend talks too much

00:35:09.220 it gets kind of annoying and then like you tell him maybe like talk a little bit less like in the

00:35:14.360 nicest way then they don't want to be your best friend anymore like you can break your friendship

00:35:19.080 really easily yeah that's like the like that's one of the concepts if you break a code you could

00:35:25.380 run your whole like friendship over one silly thing when you guys could just talk have a sit

00:35:30.760 down talk and get over it but some people you have the ego so they don't want to do it

00:35:36.700 totally that's the only thing that's ego yeah ego just messes up everything yeah so the code

00:35:46.380 the broker can bring you close together but it adds rigidity like you can't break and part of

00:35:51.880 that rigidity might come from ego that's pretty interesting yeah i was going to say like for me

00:35:58.560 a pro is that trust like knowing people have got your back because that's part of the code

00:36:03.660 and then the con is it kind of sounds dumb to say but like they don't always have your back

00:36:09.500 and the example well do you guys have an example of that or should i give an example like um like

00:36:16.020 if you're in a and if you're like in a fight or something and then they know that you're gonna

00:36:22.560 lose and and they know that that other person's strong in you they're not gonna jump in and make

00:36:29.040 themselves get embarrassed too they're gonna just leave you there and they're not gonna have your

00:36:34.160 back they're just gonna make you humiliated in front of like billions of people and they're

00:36:38.420 trying to like they're gonna try to save themselves and other than like you guys doing it together as

00:36:45.000 a sticking like together as brothers and like taking the fall together and then getting back

00:36:51.040 up together but they just want to um protect themselves and just look at you okay and just

00:36:57.020 let you get humiliated or something yeah okay Sadiq what were you mine was the exact same thing

00:37:03.040 as Betza the exact same thing but like yeah it was it's like you're getting into a fight and

00:37:09.160 they don't want to join you because they know that they're going to get beat up as well so like

00:37:13.640 they kind of just leave you and you have to like fight the person by yourself when you have like

00:37:20.020 friends that yeah you when you have friends yeah that just don't want to do anything yeah i was

00:37:27.320 thinking that like there's situation like the bro code is really well kind of set for certain

00:37:34.640 situations and then there's other situations where it's like there's no code for this and so

00:37:40.740 for example in the previous podcast season there's this guy lewis who's 11 talking about being in a

00:37:47.240 really bad fight and his his friends were winning to the like winning to the extent that he was like

00:37:54.040 this has gone too far like it's too violent because they were basically like attacking this

00:37:58.660 one other kid and so he started freaking out because he's like we're gonna like kill this

00:38:02.680 kid or something and he was like getting freaked out and he started sort of crying and being like

00:38:08.680 guys like he's had enough he's had enough and he really thought because they had this bro like

00:38:14.040 they had a really strong sense of bro code as a group of friends that they would have his back

00:38:18.040 and they would listen to him but i guess maybe because there's no bro code for what to do when

00:38:25.440 your friend starts crying and saying let's let's lay off they ended up laughing at him 0.99

00:38:30.660 and calling him a pussy and so he felt really like betrayed and and sort of like they turned 0.99

00:38:36.220 their back on him wow and so that's kind of that's what came to mind for me when i said like 0.95

00:38:43.680 the bro code is great because it means people have your back but it's not great because they

00:38:48.900 don't always yeah it's like the phrase the don't cry phrase yeah yeah take be a man yeah people

00:38:57.220 just keep it in your mind okay don't cry whatever happens don't cry like what sadiq said earlier

00:39:02.740 when you said like your dad tells you not to cry because like men don't cry or something and then

00:39:08.200 after that now like what was his name again louis louis yeah yeah so it seems like louis is crying

00:39:14.060 because he didn't want to hurt the kid he didn't want to kill him he was doing the right thing and

00:39:18.380 he started crying he started crying as a way to express himself yeah his friends laughed at him

00:39:23.400 rather than stopping and like being his friend but like that sucks though i'm sorry louis

00:39:30.700 yeah sorry something that just occurred to me is maybe part of i was gonna say part of the problem

00:39:40.040 i don't really want to phrase it like that but maybe something significant is say we have the

00:39:43.980 bro code which is like you don't turn your back on your friends you what else is in the bro code

00:39:47.980 um bros before yeah yeah yeah so you can't be you can't eat your um bros x okay uh you can't

00:39:59.300 stop being that guys like you can't stop being your best friend's like best friend over like a

00:40:04.980 girl you need to you need to um have each other's back like don't let don't betray yourself yeah

00:40:11.540 nice so those are all part of the bro code what would you say is in like society's rules

00:40:16.600 about boys like what the first one sadiq said i guess was boys don't cry

00:40:20.220 what else is in there uh boys don't act like girls boys don't cry boys don't act like girls

00:40:27.780 we said we said like all those stuff before like yeah but like boys can't do stuff that

00:40:35.140 girls do like ballerina yeah play with those all that they can't like have a feminine personality 0.95

00:40:43.320 so which one which one is out of these two sets of rules which one do you think is 0.99

00:40:50.460 deemed like most important like getting to express yourself getting to do what you want

00:40:56.480 to do kind of okay what I mean by that is so if the bro code says don't turn your back on your

00:41:04.000 friend don't stop being your best friend's friend what do you do if your best friend starts wearing

00:41:10.400 makeup and doing ballet and other feminine things do you stay true to don't turn your back on your

00:41:18.780 friend or what do you think exchange i won't yeah that's his that's his personality that's

00:41:25.680 his characteristics can't do anything yeah i don't i don't want to like intrude him on what he likes

00:41:32.460 and what he likes to do so yeah best friend best friend yeah okay i wouldn't either because like

00:41:39.240 you basically like signed the contract like you guys vowed to not like turn your back on each

00:41:45.040 other so and he said at the end of the day he was still your best friend with her without the makeup

00:41:49.920 so i feel like you said stay true to him and like just support what he has going on or things like

00:41:56.160 that because he's probably just like trying new things or he's like confused he doesn't know

00:42:00.040 what he is so he's trying to find his identity so you should just like support him so i'd let

00:42:08.540 him do his own thing like like i'll let him be himself i'd not like say i don't want to be your

00:42:14.420 friend anymore because you do that i'd still be his friend and stuff because he he's like had my

00:42:19.920 back since like you know like a long time ago he's been defending me yeah so he can do what he wants

00:42:27.100 and i'm not gonna intrude i don't get why people like don't like to be best friends with the like

00:42:33.540 let's say at first your best friend is like right like you know he's classic classic boy

00:42:38.760 and stuff and then later growing up he changes it's because like they're homophobic yeah

00:42:45.480 and they're good they're gonna think like like you can just like because what's the point your

00:42:50.200 friend is your friend you're just a best friend is when you're supporting someone not like when

00:42:54.440 you're like going how would i say it it's because it's like is they probably do it because it's like

00:43:02.360 they feel weird or something because like that wasn't how he was before and like probably when

00:43:07.640 when he wasn't doing those things,

00:43:11.060 they were already probably strongly prejudiced

00:43:14.620 towards gay people or something like that.

00:43:17.980 So I don't know why he would do that, 0.53

00:43:20.520 because he still made a vow,

00:43:21.700 so at the end of the day, he should stick to his thing.

00:43:24.180 But I feel like that's kind of rude or disrespectful

00:43:28.640 to just cut them off,

00:43:30.500 because they're trying new things or something like that.

00:43:33.140 They're just trying to find their identity growing up.

00:43:37.540 Okay, cool. That's really, really, like, that's interesting.

00:43:41.460 And you guys, maybe you know this, but it's worth sort of saying,

00:43:44.200 being committed enough to another person to say,

00:43:47.740 I'm going to, like, resist these, like, cultural expectations that, like,

00:43:51.780 I'm going to be there for you and, like, stand with you while you figure this stuff out about yourself

00:43:56.180 and, you know, be non-conforming in different ways.

00:43:58.640 Like, sticking with somebody is a really unique and powerful thing to do.

00:44:03.140 and the the like cultural messages that we get about boys don't cry boys can't be girls like

00:44:09.160 all that kind of stuff is really loud that's really powerful and especially as you grow

00:44:12.900 to be like 14 15 16 years old like those things are are pretty constant and powerful and so to

00:44:18.660 like yeah to like remember those things about yourself that you were committed to when you

00:44:23.140 were in grade seven you're in grade seven right yeah and grade seven eight grade eight um that's

00:44:31.740 a really interesting thing. And I also think it's interesting to make the distinction between the

00:44:35.740 bro code and the boy code. Like those are two separate things possibly.

00:44:41.800 Thank you for joining me on this years later revisiting of audio footage from the midst of

00:44:46.420 the pandemic. I said this at the start, but I'll say it again. The only reason that the voices of

00:44:52.300 these fun and thoughtful boys are finally making their way online is through the unwavering support

00:44:58.060 of Next Gen Men,

00:45:00.620 a non-profit organization

00:45:01.940 dedicated to engaging boys and men

00:45:03.760 in the movement for gender justice.

00:45:06.700 Next Gen Men dedicated staff time

00:45:08.500 to going through the transcripts,

00:45:10.520 budget for the tech backend,

00:45:12.480 and pushed me to find the time

00:45:13.960 to edit and publish these episodes.

00:45:16.840 We need support like yours

00:45:18.560 to do the work that we do.

00:45:20.040 Please, if you're listening to this,

00:45:21.540 go to nextgenmen.ca

00:45:23.000 slash support.

00:45:24.980 If you want to get in touch,

00:45:26.320 you can reach me at boypodcast

00:45:27.720 at nextgenman.ca or at boypodcast on social media. If you have a boy in your life, ask him what he

00:45:34.280 likes or what he would change about being a boy. It's like Yoel said, the question itself is inspiring.

00:45:57.720 Amen.

Breaking the Boy Code - September 25, 2024

The Bro Code Versus the Boy Code

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Transcript