00:00:23.760I think Justin Trudeau dating Katy Perry
00:00:25.660is kind of like an insult to Canadians personally.
00:00:28.760is our former prime minister he should not be shaming us from newfoundland you know like this
00:00:33.480is what i thought yeah no wonder you're extra i know yeah there there were there were like rumors
00:00:40.600he was down here and was dating i don't know maybe that was all i have no idea this is what
00:00:44.840was circulating chat like exactly like wildfire around the rock yeah but it's like i don't know
00:00:53.560justin like what are you doing man come on i would just say justin don't do it don't do it
00:00:58.600it don't do it call the nuns justin check in with the nuns they have stories
00:01:09.880hello i'm rachel gilmore your least favorite person's least favorite journalist welcome to
00:01:15.000bubble pop the weekly show where we break down the biggest headlines and juiciest news tidbits
00:01:20.040so you don't have to doom scroll today is our season finale before i take a little break for
00:01:25.880the summer i'll be back after labor day though so don't think you're getting away that easy
00:01:30.200but before i let you go relax and soak up the sun we got to talk about the state of canadian
00:01:35.800politics we've got a prime minister who's ruling like a conservative we've got conservatives who
00:01:42.120are acting like maga republicans we've learned even more about canada's complicity in israel's
00:01:48.280genocide in gaza and justin trudeau might be dating katie perry it's a lot so i think i need
00:01:56.040a good friend to help me through it that means you guessed it fan favorite paris marks is back
00:02:01.560on the show paris is the host of the podcast tech won't save us he is a tech critic an author a
00:02:07.480podcaster and one of my very good pals he was also my first podcast guest on this season so i think
00:02:14.680it's fitting that he helped me bookend season one paris welcome to bubble pop again thanks so much
00:02:22.120i've never been on this show before i'm excited to see how bubbles pop i'm excited to see you for
00:02:27.560the first time in my life ever um you look different than i expected i i thought you'd be
00:02:32.840blonde um no obviously brown here with the more and more gray uh as it happens it's called being
00:02:40.440a silver fox okay that's what you're working towards there yeah i'll take it i'll take it
00:02:45.080yeah i'm scared for when i go gray because i'm ginger and i feel like it's gonna be hard to
00:02:48.920color match you know and like get rid of those so just pluck them until i i'm not even color
00:02:53.880matching i'm just i'm just letting it letting it do its thing you know hell yeah hell yeah ride
00:02:58.920ride the silver wave i'd imagine like when people with ginger hair like go gray it'd be like a
00:03:06.040lighter gray or no i don't i don't know i have no idea i feel like it's kind of all over the place
00:03:11.960like my i my granddad still had ginger in his white when he was like very elderly so you never
00:03:19.000know you never know but he was kind of more of like a vibrant orange than i've ever been so i'm
00:03:24.440i'm a little more auburn anyways i'm sure this is really thrilling for i need to remain your friend
00:03:28.840just so i see what happens exactly yeah now that we've met for the first time we can start this
00:03:33.640long and beautiful friendship so okay so paris you were oh my immediate line in my script here
00:03:41.720is destroying the premise of our joke you were my co-host on the election miniseries campaign cops
00:03:48.840since then mark carney you just have amnesia that's all i know i just immediately forget
00:03:54.200everyone that i've ever met um since then mark carney has introduced and implemented his first
00:04:01.720bits of legislation he's been a very busy boy he's made concessions to trump including
00:04:07.240on the digital services tax we haven't gotten a ton in return um what do you think of prime
00:04:14.840minister mark carney so far big fan no you know he's he's progressive conservative carney like
00:04:26.440Like, let's be real, you know, sure, we kept a liberal government, but we got one that
00:04:31.520is basically as conservative as you can hope to get with a liberal party.
00:04:37.120You know, as you were saying, he went to the election, he went to the public saying it
00:04:41.900would be elbows up against Donald Trump, you know, that we would be pushing back against
00:04:46.540the United States and, you know, not being allowing, not allowing Donald Trump, not allowing
00:04:51.580this country to like push us around and whatnot.
00:04:53.900And we've really seen, we saw right after the election ended, really, that kind of rhetoric slowly start to get toned down.
00:05:02.660You know, the kind of comments that Mark Carney would be open to Canada participating in the Golden Dome, a completely ridiculous, you know, attempt to remake Israel's Iron Dome system in North America.
00:07:49.560that we will see some good things come of this.
00:07:52.580Obviously, there's the questions of what it means
00:07:54.180for um indigenous people first nations and and things like that and i know that's an ongoing
00:07:59.380conversation and we'll see where that goes um i think it was really ill-advised the way that they
00:08:03.780handle those consultations but yeah that's kind of like generally how i'm thinking about it yeah
00:08:09.220yeah that's a good you kind of covered all the bases there but um on that last one i yeah i do
00:08:15.460think that we might see some interesting stuff come out of the major projects legislation like
00:08:19.620I worked on a piece with the National Observer, based on their really incredible investigating,
00:08:25.780where they looked at the potential projects we might see. And while there was a lot of fossil
00:08:30.340fuel stuff, there was also some really interesting ones that seemed more positive that had to do with
00:08:38.020wind energy and national energy, connectivity and connecting different grids. So that stuff
00:08:46.740is interesting i do think it's problematic that they have given themselves powers to just override
00:08:53.220so many like consultation processes and uh legislation on things like you know um species
00:09:00.020at risk where they can just if a species is gonna go extinct because you go ahead with a project
00:09:06.660that can be overridden as a concern and stuff like that so i i think that there's you know it's it's a
00:09:11.940one of those bold things that I think they could have done a better job of if they hadn't rushed
00:09:17.100it through so fast. And I think that's kind of indicative of a lot of stuff that Carney has
00:09:21.240done where there might be some good ideas in some of it, but, um, it almost feels rushed,
00:09:26.400like the way that he's drafting things in the way that unless, and maybe I'm being too generous,
00:09:31.140maybe it's intentional and he genuinely doesn't care about those things, but there's been moments
00:09:35.080where I've heard things from, um, you know, individuals who are speaking to, uh, justice
00:09:40.880department officials for example and they'll point out something in the legislation being like no
00:09:45.140this is where this does a bad thing and people will be like oh oh i didn't notice that and it's
00:09:50.000like you guys are supposed to be the ones who know that like you're the ones working on this
00:09:53.400legislation so you know it's uh i'm i feel like i'm seeing some markers that they're they're
00:09:58.920moving a bit too fast um and that's not great but yeah well and i think that partially comes out of
00:10:06.020like Carney really does seem to feel or seem to see himself as like the CEO in chief, right?
00:10:14.180I think he sees himself less as a prime minister and more as the chief executive of Canada at the
00:10:20.000moment. And that implies a different way of governing and engaging with consultation and
00:10:25.180those sorts of questions, right? A different way of approaching power in a sense. And I do think
00:10:31.160that there is a legitimate argument to be made that, you know, we haven't been able to get things
00:10:36.400done to a certain degree because processes tend to take so long within the federal government.
00:10:41.420I do think that that is a legitimate criticism, right? But the question is, what is the right way
00:10:48.100to try to address those long timelines, to try to address the way that that caused costs to balloon
00:10:54.300in a way that still protects rights, is still concerned about environmental impacts and things
00:11:00.440like that. And I think that's kind of what we're working through at the moment, where it seems
00:11:04.900quite clear that his attempts to override these rules, as you're saying, are creating a lot of
00:11:10.940serious and legitimate concerns from Indigenous people, from environmental groups, concerns that
00:11:16.080I share. And the question is, is there or what would be the better way to do this? And I think
00:11:23.980that just because Carney has moved so fast, and because he does still have so much of the public
00:11:30.180behind him and really so much of the media willing to um you know kind of what would you say um
00:11:37.800really kind of give the benefit of the doubt to his project um that you really don't see those
00:11:44.220kinds of other conversations or like what would be another way to do this uh kind of kind of
00:11:51.100questions really being asked and i do think that's a discussion that we need to be having
00:11:54.840but unfortunately you know the the conversation is not it's not really there yeah yeah i i think
00:12:01.480that um you know on that topic too one thing that i found that i struggled with and i think that you
00:12:08.180came up against this a bit too was um there was a lot of love for mark carney um and i don't think
00:12:15.280like that's not necessarily a bad thing it's fine for people to like their prime minister
00:12:19.440um but when remember how much people loved Justin Trudeau when he was first selected
00:12:25.380um but yeah like when when Carney started making these policy moves that were
00:12:33.360more conservative and people like you and I started raising the alarm and many others too
00:12:39.780um we got absolutely like bodied online like there's just some real hardcore Carney supporters
00:12:48.900And I think one thing that I heard a lot was that, oh, you know, he's just started. Give him some time. He's just getting his sea legs. And I'm kind of like, well, behind the scenes, he's actually been trying to get in this position for some time. So this isn't really that new.
00:13:03.220And I don't really think the prime minister is a job where like you can really give people a ton of slack for like learning the ropes because the mistakes that they make in that process can have nation changing implications.
00:13:15.460So, you know, but but it was it was almost hard to report on him initially.
00:13:20.740But I'm starting to notice that change and Canadians are becoming more receptive to an understanding that it's not a condemnation of them or how they may have voted.
00:13:33.220to turn around and sort of criticize or have these tough conversations about what Mark Carney is
00:13:38.100actually doing well in office. But I wanted to ask you, like, why do you think Canadians were so
00:13:42.520defensive of Mark Carney? Yeah, I think there's a really obvious reason, right? I think Canada is
00:13:49.280being threatened right now by the United States. I think that is the main reason that Mark Carney
00:13:54.760was elected. I think a lot of the early criticisms were not about the way that he was relating to
00:14:01.240the United States, or it was still quite early in that relationship. So, you know, I do think that
00:14:07.300to a certain degree, it's understandable that some people would say, listen, he's just started here,
00:14:14.100let's give him a bit more time to see how this goes. And they were not as concerned with some
00:14:19.100of the other legislative efforts that he was engaged in, and some of the other ways that he
00:14:24.440was acting. And they were kind of saying, you know, we need to support our Prime Minister right
00:14:28.960now because he is dealing with donald trump and what have you right so i think that that is kind
00:14:33.460of the position that some of these folks had um i do think that there's also another kind of
00:14:39.780group of people who are just diehard carny heads and i think i i feel like part of that is like
00:14:47.720the importation of a certain political culture from the united states right where you have these
00:14:53.100people who are like diehard Democrats, Democrats can do no wrong, you know, watching MSNBC all the
00:14:59.620time, you know, that that type of an individual who is going to defend the Democrats until
00:15:06.260the end. And I think you had a certain degree of that kind of, you know, because we have a lot of
00:15:11.140people in Canada, a lot of people of a certain age group who spend a lot of time watching that
00:15:17.100media as well, very engaged in kind of the Trump timeline and the American politics reality show.
00:15:22.580And so I think that they were kind of importing that way of engaging with politics into Canada.
00:15:28.600And so then relating that to Mark Carney.
00:15:31.360That's how I understand part of that as well, especially those more, you know, those more really aggressive people who really wanted to oppose any criticism of Carney.
00:15:40.640And I think part of the reason that has changed is because we just have, you know, a longer period of time now to see how this has been going.
00:15:47.300And I don't think a lot of the growing concern about what Carney is doing is related to, say, the border bill or the carbon tax or the middle class tax cut or even the revocation of the digital services tax.
00:16:00.520It is more about seeing how this relationship with Donald Trump and these negotiations with the United States are going and saying, this really isn't working out how we planned.
00:16:11.860um you know if we were supposed to be elbows up and then all of a sudden a lot of that language
00:16:18.100disappeared and now it seems like donald trump is just steamrolling over us and where is this
00:16:23.660mark carney that was sold to us during the campaign that doesn't seem to be here anymore
00:16:28.040and so i feel like you know for us we're disillusioned for for other reasons looking at
00:16:33.260you know the the government's um you know position toward israel and gaza we're looking at the border
00:16:39.260bill the the violation of people's rights that we can potentially see incoming there um you know
00:16:45.280other reasons like that for them for some of these people it's very much focused on that
00:16:49.820relationship with the u.s and that is really not working out how mark carney suggested it would
00:16:54.100yeah i mean one thing that's kind of struck me is like just the like the degree to which he's
00:17:00.860capitulating like i even had a liberal source tell me that like like they jokingly gave him
00:17:06.640the nickname capitulation carney and that's someone who is a like liberal and um you know
00:17:12.840so like there's those conversations behind the scenes and i mean like the the example of the
00:17:17.180digital service taxes the tax is a really good one because the uk has one as well the uk is
00:17:23.140currently in trade negotiations with trump as well and they haven't reneged on that now you could
00:17:30.520make the argument that trump you know he gets things in his head and and he did fixate on our
00:17:35.600digital services tax especially um and he wasn't really talking about it with respect to the uk
00:17:41.100um so maybe he just hasn't realized that they have one and or hasn't gotten like lobbied hard
00:17:47.360on that um particular front but i do think that it is a worrying sign that our elbows up prime
00:17:55.340minister is caving in areas where other um world leaders who he seems to be modeling his governance
00:18:03.160style in large part after are still holding firm so i don't know i that to me was sort of um
00:18:09.720revealing um i also think it makes less sense to to a degree as well because like okay we have
00:18:18.200these other countries that are holding on to their digital services taxes right um but canada is also
00:18:24.560in a different position with regards to the united states as those countries as well right so if you
00:18:32.020look at the UK or the European Union or Japan or whoever, I would argue that they are even more
00:18:40.340incentivized to want to get a deal with the United States. Because if they don't, virtually
00:18:48.060everything that comes out of their economy is going to be hit with a 30, 35%, 50% tariff or
00:18:54.240whatever, right? And it's crushing. And so you see that with the deal that the European Union
00:18:59.680agreed to a Trump or that the European president did, Ursula von der Leyen, recently. And obviously
00:19:07.780that was criticized as being basically a capitulation to Trump. And I think that's
00:19:12.280accurate. I really don't think the Europeans came out very well in that deal. But you can also see0.87
00:19:18.160the argument that you've seen from some political leaders in Europe where they basically say,
00:19:23.660this is a bad deal we don't like it but also a 15 tariff is better than a 30 or 35 tariff and so
00:19:30.960even if we're selling this out you know even even even if this is the deal that we're that we're
00:19:36.020that we're being sold then we're just going to have to take it for now because it seems like
00:19:41.200for the most part this is what most countries are getting right and so i think they one were
00:19:47.140more legitimized to want to try to get leverage with trump and to try to you know get on good
00:19:52.220terms and things like that because the potential implications were far worse. I think in Canada's
00:19:57.460case, we are less concerned about that broader tariff rate because we have KUSMA, the kind of
00:20:08.380follow-up to NAFTA. And a very significant amount of our trade, regardless of the tariff rate that
00:20:14.500Donald Trump sets, is tariff-free because it operates under that agreement. And so our trade
00:20:21.160works very differently. Our trade and the Mexicans trade works very differently than a lot of other
00:20:26.280countries would with the United States. And so our negotiators are much more focused on the steel
00:20:33.400and aluminum tariffs, the auto tariffs, the sectoral tariffs that were less of certainly a
00:20:39.860concern, but less so for those other players, right? And so when you think about the discussions
00:20:46.340that we're having now, we're obviously recording this before August 1st, the most recent deadline,
00:20:51.160that that was set in these talks so we'll you know if something comes of it we we won't necessarily
00:20:55.800know about that by the time this is published yeah it's currently uh wednesday in the early
00:21:00.600afternoon wednesday july 30th so if anything happens after this you know exactly we didn't
00:21:05.960know about it but it's like it's like if there's not a deal i think that's less harmful to canada
00:21:15.000than it would be if say the european union had no deal or the uk had no deal because so much of our
00:21:20.440trade is already tariff-free. And our real concern is less that broader tariff rate, though of course
00:21:26.680we would like it to be zero, and more those sectoral tariffs that hit key industries within
00:21:33.000Canada that we want to see reduced, but that we can see from the agreements with the UK, with
00:21:38.960Europe, with Indonesia, with Japan, are largely staying in place in those other countries as well.
00:21:44.880And so I think our ability to actually get rid of those sectoral tariffs is very limited.
00:21:49.380And so then the question becomes, is it really in our interest to sign some bad deal where we have to give a lot of stuff away, or just to say, we're going to ride it out, we're going to see what happens in the midterms, or what have you.
00:22:03.420um and all because the other piece the final piece is that if we do agree to a bad deal now
00:22:09.880that's not legally enforced and you know could be overturned in the courts and all this kind of
00:22:14.440stuff it could set a precedent so the kuzma usmca renegotiation that happens next year that could
00:22:21.120put us in a really bad position going into that so that you know is in mind as well you know i know
00:22:26.700trade wasn't really necessarily on our agenda but like no no this is a key piece of what we're
00:22:31.260thinking about right yeah yeah and i also think that you know one thing that i do try to catch
00:22:36.180myself on um and and i don't want to cut carny too much slack with respect to the whole like
00:22:42.680elbows down thing but i don't know how i would do this and like i don't know how you deal with
00:22:50.560someone who's clearly not negotiating in good faith and who is so unpredictable and angry
00:22:58.180right and so it's it's a really difficult tight rope to walk and so it's as much as it's easy for
00:23:04.900me to criticize him as capitulating I do try to catch myself a little bit and have the self
00:23:09.900awareness to be like but this is a wild situation and I don't know what the answer is so it's much
00:23:17.740easier to chirp from the sidelines than to actually do it so I do just want to acknowledge that um but
00:23:23.200one thing that I have been really disappointed on, and I think you have as well, well, I know you
00:23:30.160have as well, has been the genocide in Gaza. And that's an area where I think there is a more
00:23:35.740clear-cut course of action and things that Carney could be doing. And once again, I do think that
00:23:41.540this also has ties to the U.S. because I think that there's a lot of fear of enraging Trump
00:23:46.980because of the the U.S. Israel dynamic. But Carney promised to be a leader on the international
00:23:57.180stage. That was something Canadians thought they were voting for. It was something he said
00:24:00.640repeatedly. If the U.S. won't lead, we will. And we are we are not leading on this issue. We are
00:24:10.220pure followers. We only seem to act in tandem with other countries. We never strike out on
00:24:16.140our own like france just did to recognize the state of palestine um that's another thing that
00:24:21.120there might be news on after this because i am uh there was actually a report on cbc's the national
00:24:27.540last night where they were talking about how um sources were saying that the government is actively
00:24:32.380discussing recognizing the statehood of palestine so um again sorry the timing of this is difficult
00:24:38.620for our podcast yeah there are liberal mps uh pressuring uh like we saw in the uk effectively
00:24:44.400yeah yeah and you know um but on the flip side a massive report just came out this week
00:24:52.000detailing hundreds of canadian arms shipments to israel um and this is while gazans are starving
00:24:58.640because of israel's blockade which is a man-made famine and what our government announced in
00:25:05.460response to that this week was that we're providing an additional 30 million in funding
00:25:09.540for humanitarian aid in Gaza to, quote, pre-position aid in the region in order to ensure that it is
00:25:15.220distributed efficiently and at scale. And in that statement, we said, quote, this aid must be allowed
00:25:21.280to reach those in desperate need. But we didn't describe why it can't and why that is being
00:25:29.320prevented. I guess, I mean, I touched on some potential reasons, but I want to hear your
00:25:35.440thoughts on why do you think it's so hard for our government to have the moral backbone on the world
00:25:42.340stage that Carney implied he would have when he was campaigning? I think that's a big question.
00:25:51.300It is. Why does the world let bad things happen, Paris? Why do leaders allow atrocities? Please
00:25:59.540tell me. I wish I had the answer that would allow us to overcome it, right?
00:26:05.440I think more broadly, why is the Canadian government and so many Western governments really unwilling to say the types of things about Israel that they have been very willing to say about Russia and other countries in the world that are abusing human rights?
00:26:24.320is, you know, because of politics and because of that broader relationship with the United States.
00:26:31.120But I also think part of it is just basic racism, that the lives of Palestinians do not matter
00:26:36.980nearly as much as the lives of Israelis or, you know, other folks, right? And also because of
00:26:43.920the longstanding acceptance of the apartheid system in Israel, you know, and the fact that
00:26:50.960they have been completely okay with this for decades. You know, even today, we see the0.54
00:26:56.160continuation of these statements that, oh, we need a two-state solution, or like you were saying
00:27:02.320earlier, we need aid to resume. And it's like, they know the reality of why a two-state solution
00:27:08.240is not happening, why not enough aid is getting in. But again, they won't criticize the government
00:27:14.140of israel for not doing so um i think it becomes increasingly appalling and like i really think
00:27:21.100that there's more and more canadians who are just outraged at the government about this you know i
00:27:26.180speak to people who are not watching all this stuff all the time in the way that we are and
00:27:31.380who are not as engaged or informed about the history of israel's oppression of palestinians
00:27:38.660and the seizure of their land and the nakba and all this kind of stuff and they're just seeing
00:27:43.100starving kids on the TV screen every day and are outraged that the government is not doing more
00:27:50.220about this and don't understand, you know, why that is the case, right? And, you know, we hear
00:27:59.520like Anita Anand and we hear these politicians talk about it and we always hear that Hamas needs
00:28:05.380to release the hostages, right? They need to include that in every answer. I never hear them
00:28:10.260say that Israel needs to release the Palestinian hostages, of which there are many, many more
00:31:13.580And additionally, it would prompt outrage from our media.
00:31:16.840And I do think that our media, they did press.
00:31:19.520That's why they got that answer from Jolie was because they did press on the question of that U.S. loophole.
00:31:25.180But I just think that there are decisions that are made by the media that then allow governments to get away with these milquetoast answers on a question of something as horrifying as a genocide,
00:31:43.420in which we have Canadian doctors who are providing evidence of messages they've sent to other
00:31:50.120doctors in Gaza who have told them that baby formula is confiscated when they enter Gaza.
00:31:58.780Baby formula. What reason? For what reason do you confiscate baby formula? What is the purpose of
00:32:06.420that during a famine there is only one reason you would do that and it is to genocide to eradicate
00:32:14.760a people to eradicate the next generation of people and I'm losing my train of thought here
00:32:22.540frankly because it's just it's so frustrating the appalling hypocrisy of it all and I do think that
00:32:28.840if there were ever a reason to accept the wrath of donald trump um refusing to participate in
00:32:39.640one of the worst atrocities i would argue the worst atrocity that we've witnessed in our lifetime
00:32:47.760is absolutely a good enough reason to piss off donald trump and but we're profiting from this
00:32:53.980I mean, like, we've got arms companies that are sending stuff to Israel.
00:33:05.620And it's not even, like, I would say this is not as unique as we try to make it look, right?
00:33:12.980You know, I remember, I grew up in the 90s.
00:33:16.960I remember the talk of the genocide in Rwanda, right?
00:33:21.240um and how after that occurred the discourse i remember at the time was that this never should
00:33:30.200have happened that the international community should have got in there and and stopped it and
00:33:35.780and done more to try to save lives instead of allowing this genocide to continue and you know
00:33:43.280what a moral disgrace it was that the west kind of stood back and allowed this to happen right
00:33:50.480Right. And now, of course, we see another one in front of our eyes.
00:33:55.240And again, they're standing back because, oh, it's politically inconvenient and blah, blah, blah.
00:34:00.260Or, you know, even even if you think about our own history in Canada, and I don't think it's entirely accurate, but this is the story that we like to tell,
00:34:09.840is how brave Brian Mulrooney was to stand up to the UK and the US and to turn against apartheid
00:34:21.880South Africa and say, under a conservative government, progressive conservative government,
00:34:26.420that Canada was not going to be dealing with this apartheid state, right?0.95
00:34:32.920You know, we kind of hold that up. You know, Brian Mulrooney died not too long ago. And that was
00:34:39.060that was a big part of the narrative that the media that you know that the political class
00:34:44.340wanted to sell about this figure like look at the difference that he made uh on the world stage and
00:34:50.680that canada can make um and in this moment you know we are supporting that apartheid state we0.87
00:34:58.260are supporting the genocide that is going on and our leaders are too cowardly to stand up against
00:35:05.280that because they might feel some wrath from the united states and i think even now where we look1.00
00:35:12.060at this discussion about recognizing a palestinian state like it's so stupid that that is even the0.99
00:35:16.580discussion that we're happening that we're having right now right um and really and you can see it0.97
00:35:22.700in the way that that the uk is talking about this like the uk prime minister keir starmer he wasn't
00:35:28.060going to recognize a palestinian state and then he came out and said you know what we're going to do
00:35:34.500it but only if you israel um keep slaughtering palestinians if you stop slaughtering palestinians0.56
00:35:42.420and give them food and stuff then we won't actually recognize yeah the right of palestinians0.81
00:35:47.700to self-determination it's like the world are we living in state of a palestinian state as a threat0.99
00:35:55.140instead of yeah right like it's absurd and frankly you're right when you say like it's so0.96
00:36:02.100stupid that this is what we're like we're spending our time talking about this and obviously i'm not0.89
00:36:06.500trying to diminish the importance of the palestinian right to self-determination because it is0.98
00:36:10.740incredibly important israel has food or israel is holding food at the border right now that is an
00:36:21.140urgent thing that the international community needs to demand that they release and you can
00:36:28.980do that through sanctions you can do that there's all kinds of political levers that you can pull
00:36:33.940to put that pressure on the israeli government and we are having meetings in at the united nations
00:36:41.060where people are just opining on palestinian statehood and making funding announcements to
00:36:47.380pre-position aid without actually dealing with the heart of the problem which is that israel
00:36:52.500is depriving the access like it is such it's appalling to see that there is an urgent and
00:37:00.580relatively easy fix here we just have to get israel to stop to stop not allowing aid to flow
00:37:10.020and that would save lives but and this tide is finally turning as people are entering phase five
00:37:17.140of famine. So we are finally having some shift in the conversation. And really, the shift is about
00:37:25.040Palestinian statehood. It's still not about sanctioning Israel. It's still not about,
00:37:28.900you know, acting on arrest warrants for Netanyahu. It's about Palestinian statehood rather than
00:37:35.440Israel's actions at a time when many Palestinians are past the point of no return with respect to
00:37:42.100the starvation. They're dealing with epigenetic damage, gene damage, the kind that is still
00:37:47.720visible in some descendants of the Irish potato famine to this day. They are dealing with brain
00:37:53.720damage, with damage they can't come back from even if they got food today. And that is not to say
00:37:59.780that they should not get that food immediately still. We should still be pushing that with as
00:38:04.500much ferocity as ever. But I can't help but feel like a lot of the people who are changing their
00:38:09.160to now are preparing their post-genocide rhetoric where they pretend they weren't complicit and that
00:38:17.280is what is just morally disfiguring in all of this um and like let's be clear here i think
00:38:28.000if you actually got the canadian government to be honest i think what they would say is listen
00:38:35.420Even if we, you know, turned against Israel or whatever, held them to account for their crimes, I think they would argue that it won't make a difference anyway, because they still have the United States supporting them, right?
00:38:53.640I think I think if they were being truly honest, this is the argument that they would make. And my argument in response to that would be, I believe that if Canada, if the European Union, if Japan and South Korea and Australia and New Zealand and all of the global south that is behind the Palestinian cause actually came together and said, you know what?0.87
00:39:19.140we're sanctioning israel as a state not just you know bangover and smotrich and whatever0.63
00:39:25.800um and we are holding them to account we are saying you need to let the aid in you need to
00:39:33.460you know we are going to make a palestinian state happen whether you like it or not um
00:39:40.640that the united states could only hold out against that pressure for so long the united1.00
00:39:45.760states is a powerful force it's not the powerful force it once was and i don't think it can stand
00:39:51.260against the rest of the world um and so i it's for that reason that i really don't buy the arguments
00:40:00.800that the government is making that they can't do it like there's there's the the moral depravity
00:40:06.280in what they're doing right but i also think that the political calculation is just completely
00:40:13.040wrong. And I think that also relates to what we just see with the broader way that they treat
00:40:21.000this relationship to the US. I think the US can kind of pick off all of these countries in trade
00:40:26.480talks, because once again, all of these countries are not coming together to act in their collective
00:40:31.660interest, or the collective interest of the world, you know, to address these issues. And that allow
00:40:36.760that gives the US more power than it would otherwise have, that they can use with tariffs
00:40:42.020and trade wars but that they can also use to support the continued israeli apartheid system
00:40:49.620and the genocide against palestinians um and so you know i think until our governments really like
00:40:56.500you know grow a backbone um then unfortunately this is the state we're stuck in yeah and i honestly
00:41:04.500like i don't know how we can forgive ourselves ever for that like that's just something that i'm
00:41:17.860personally grappling with like knowing that our leadership is so comfortable just utterly ignoring
00:41:25.780its people who are begging it to act in something in a situation that is so
00:41:34.840objectively wrong it's just it's hard to it's hard to wrap your mind around and still see the
00:41:44.300world the same way and maybe i just never should have seen it the way i did before this in the
00:41:48.580first place but um yeah it's it's it's a hard thing to wrap your mind around and yeah you look
00:41:54.860you're gonna say something yeah yeah i i would agree with you yeah but at the same time i would
00:41:59.900say we always move past these things we always normalize them in you know in history if you look
00:42:06.300at rwanda right we move past that um if you look at apartheid south africa we've moved past that
00:42:11.500and we made up a story that we were okay with um you know uh we're a country that was that was
00:42:18.540was founded on a genocide of Indigenous people in our own country, right? Like, let's be real
00:42:26.120about that. And not only did for years, did we just sweep that under the rug and pretend that
00:42:33.240it never happened. But now that we're, you know, trying to sort of make amends for it, you know,
00:42:39.300even then it's like, what are we really doing? You know, if you look at what Kearney is doing
00:42:44.580with relation to these national projects and stuff,
00:42:47.600it's clear that his goal with Indigenous consultation
00:42:51.180is buying off Indigenous groups, right?
00:42:53.440Trying to see how much it costs to get them on side.
00:42:57.080We have never really properly reckoned
00:42:59.580with the genocide that Canada was built on.
00:43:02.960And now, at a moment where we try to present ourselves
00:43:06.380as this defender of human rights and international law,
00:43:09.880as a country that is reconciling with the Indigenous groups
00:43:14.080um that we committed that our ancestors committed a genocide against we are actively supporting
00:43:21.680a genocide that is occurring um in israel by you know a supposed uh ally of ours right um so
00:43:30.740like yes it's shocking but it's also it's also not shocking because it's what we're built on
00:43:36.800Yeah, because of how common it is and because of how we always dismiss and, you know, find a way to tell a different story about these things.0.52
00:43:47.020It's like Israel is Canada at a very early stage.
00:43:50.280Obviously, there are very big differences.0.54
00:43:52.580There are very distinct aspects of the genocide and the settler colonial project in Canada versus in Israel, but they're still settler colonies, right?
00:44:01.000um it's it's we're we're a country that was very successful in carrying out its genocide
00:44:07.140and then wrote a story to make that seem okay um israel is at a place where it is kind of probably0.58
00:44:16.820at the peak of its genocidal fervor and it's hoping it can get through that and get to the
00:44:24.100other side and maintain control over the territory that it wants um and i think it's on us to make
00:44:31.660sure that that doesn't happen that it's not allowed to get away with that um and i think
00:44:37.540it very much remains to be seen as to whether that will be the case yeah yeah i think that's
00:44:43.380actually an integral point is that we can't allow that story to be rewritten and totally and also
00:44:50.760we should take that and turn it inwards and, you know, look at the ways in which we're rewriting
00:44:55.980our own stories and push back on that within ourselves. Because I think you're, I mean,
00:45:02.060you're totally right. And I do also think that, frankly, some of the hangups and hesitations that
00:45:07.680Canada has with respect to calling out Israel is rooted in that sense of identity and the questions
00:45:13.460it raises within our own country of the things that we've done and the precedents that we have
00:45:19.520set and normalized and decided are okay um in the way that we've decided to tell that story to
00:45:25.220ourselves now i know that you and i could talk about this like at length and i mean we have
00:45:31.860because it is like genuinely it's i feel like it's the most important thing right now personally but
00:45:37.760um but i did want to uh devote a little bit of time before we wrap up today to talking about
00:45:44.240the shift i mean we talked about mark carney's government we talked about the world stage and
00:45:50.960now i want to look at the opposition in our country and you know we have an opposition what
00:45:57.200i know right um well he's he's coming back soon that's for sure
00:46:01.980you know and that is like the one thing we kept hearing from folks defending carney
00:46:08.520is that well at least he's not pierre polyev um and they're not wrong in the sense that while
00:46:14.120Carney is center-right, the Conservatives are going, like, far-right. I think the most recent
00:46:19.680example of that is their full-throated, like, several Conservative MPs, and Pierre Polyeb also
00:46:24.660amplifying these posts, defense of the MAGA preacher Sean Foyt, who's a Christian nationalist
00:46:31.400who has previously had a proud boy among those who were doing security for him when he was claiming
00:46:38.660to cast demons out of downtown portland um it just kind of like it makes every city needs his demons
00:46:47.540to be cast out though right you know oh absolutely i mean but but i want to go to the city where all
00:46:53.220those demons land because i think that sounds fun okay but you know i i do think that it's this
00:47:00.420interesting thing we're seeing right now where the liberals are acting like conservatives so
00:47:05.140So the conservatives are having to act even further right, or maybe that is just their want.
00:47:09.800But do you think that the Overton window, the, you know, that's sort of the scope of acceptable discourse, the kind of discourse that we accept in our politics has shifted to the right?
00:47:27.720And like, why do you or do you not think that's the case?
00:47:34.420And I think that we've seen that happening for some years. Right. Even even in the latter couple of years of the Trudeau government, you know, the narrative in the media was that the Trudeau liberals were too far left and they were focused too much on social policy than economic policy and economic growth.
00:47:53.580And we needed a grown-up like Mark Carney, you know, because, like, they were explicitly campaigning for Mark Carney to be prime minister and liberal leader, let's be clear about that, for quite some time, right?
00:48:04.700And so I think that has been happening for a while.
00:48:07.280And then since, you know, the kind of the legitimation of Mark Carney and him kind of becoming prime minister, the new Democrats are, like, not even in the conversation right now.
00:48:17.880um you know so that degree of like opposition that might present like a slightly you know
00:48:24.460minimally more more left-wing version of things um is gone effectively you know sure there's some
00:48:32.180new democrats there but i never hear from them um i don't hear them in the media conversation the
00:48:37.580most i hear from a new democrat is like on those panels of political hacks that the media do and
00:48:44.160they'd need to put an NDPer on there for representation. And even then, they're not
00:48:49.940saying anything very different, usually. And then you have Mark Carney and the Liberals,
00:48:55.680who, having braced a more right-wing politics generally, a more conservative politics, sometimes
00:49:00.760you hear the things that these ministers are saying in the Carney government that were also
00:49:05.540ministers in the Trudeau government. And you're like, are these the same people? What is going on
00:49:11.180It's scary. It's like, I don't understand how you can be like, I mean, I do, I guess. Again,
00:49:16.100I'm showing my naivety in this, in this podcast, but I genuinely like, I thought that some of
00:49:22.060these people at least had some semblance of like a clear set of morals, but seeing how quickly
00:49:27.400they can kind of shift their politics in accordance with their leader is shocking.
00:49:32.900It really is like, yeah, sorry. I interrupted you though.
00:49:37.120That's okay. That's why Nathan Erskine Smith only got like a month of being a
00:49:41.020cabinet minister, right? They knew he wasn't going to stay on message. Exactly. But then if you look
00:49:49.720at the conservatives, right, I would argue that I think you're seeing something very interesting
00:49:53.640with the conservatives. There has always been this embrace of the extreme right, you know,
00:49:59.520for a long time, we've had the social conservatives there. And, you know, Pierre
00:50:02.960Polyev has legitimated that more extreme part of the conservative party base that we associate it
00:50:09.940more with like libertarianism and stuff in in the past you know more of that kind of western
00:50:14.500canada conservatism than like you know what we consider like the progressive conservatism of the
00:50:19.200east coast or whatever um so so that has long been there you know for me like you're talking about
00:50:24.360the kind of stuff that that these people are tweeting when you have someone like pierre
00:50:27.800polyev tweeting that um that the nazis were actually socialists because they called it
00:50:33.780national socialism which he has done you know quite recently like yeah but like as leader of
00:50:41.320the conservative party he was tweeting that like so to me that's not entirely new right yeah he has
00:50:47.140always been playing to these people he's been dog whistling the great reset for years i first
00:50:50.720reported on that i think in 2020 so that's like five years ago exactly so so this is not new
00:50:57.900i and i think what we're seeing with the conservatives right now is one they're going
00:51:02.600along with a lot of what the Liberal Party is doing, because the Liberal Party has gone so much
00:51:06.620to the right. And I actually think they're still trying to find their positioning, you know,
00:51:13.140how they reposition themselves against the carny liberal government. And maybe that has been
00:51:18.100delayed in part because their leader is not in Parliament. And I still think that it's an open
00:51:23.780question whether a Pierre Polyev leadership makes sense in a carny era, because of what he
00:51:30.020represents right like i could still see the the party turfing him uh in the future but i think
00:51:35.340they're going to give him that chance to come back into parliament and see how it goes first
00:51:39.000um but you know to your broader point like absolutely things have moved more to the right
00:51:43.480and i just i you know part of that like you were saying earlier comes to the media conversation
00:51:48.780and the media doesn't seem very interested in asking um you know difficult questions about
00:51:56.040the Carney agenda and the actions of Mark Carney. Sure, they will platform, you know,
00:52:00.620Indigenous leaders who have a problem with, you know, what is going on with the national projects
00:52:06.480legislation and, you know, what it means for Indigenous consultation and consent and those
00:52:11.640sorts of issues. But largely, it's like, this is what Mark Carney is doing, not is what Mark Carney
00:52:19.040is doing really good. And when they question it, it's usually from the right, right, as it so often
00:52:25.560is not like what is this actually going to mean for people this this agenda where he's cutting
00:52:30.960taxes he's spending a ton more money he's talking about cuts uh you know that we know how that how
00:52:38.680that tends to turn out in the past let's put it that way yeah absolutely um you know i'm glad that
00:52:46.720you mentioned the media because it's i i think i always try to catch myself but i've said this
00:52:51.780before on this podcast but like because it's a personal interest of mine obviously um but i i do
00:52:57.920think that a dominant issue and all of the stuff we've talked about here is the media i mean like
00:53:04.360their commitment to both sides ism really facilitates a lot of the um shifts that we've
00:53:11.340seen i mean when you are utterly committed to this both sides ism um when the political discourse
00:53:18.200shifts to the right, then you are simultaneously going to facilitate that shift and kind of not
00:53:26.540really question it because of the fact that you are concerned about avoiding that perception of
00:53:31.240bias. So if you don't move in tandem with the political discourse, then you will be the outlier
00:53:37.080and therefore perceived as, you know, favoring one side. And I think that that's just like a huge
00:53:43.120problem that then facilitates these shifts in, you know, rhetoric that can get really transphobic,
00:53:50.560that can get really racist, especially with respect to issues like Palestine. I don't know,
00:53:56.360you and I, like, we've talked about these things ad nauseum, but I'm curious whether you agree with
00:54:02.340that, that that's like the, a dominant overarching theme here. And like, how do we fix this? Like,
00:54:12.600is there hope for the media like you and i both still watch it and because i want it to be better0.98
00:54:18.580so like what do you think do you think that it can fix its problem it's both sides ism disease
00:54:25.180we'll see um you know i i would just add a few things to what you're saying right i think that
00:54:30.980when you see this kind of both sides ism or the attempt to show uh an unbiased uh you know
00:54:36.340perspective on the issues or whatever um that is that is shaped by by political uh you know
00:54:43.500political forces right you know you you have the conservative party frequently attacking the media
00:54:47.880as being too left-wing as being against their interests i i haven't heard the ndp attack the
00:54:54.860media as being too right-wing um you know which i would argue it is um and that actually the
00:55:00.560attacks from the conservatives that they're too left-wing caused the media to move more in a
00:55:05.120right-wing direction because they don't want to be accused of that bias. Exactly. And so we see
00:55:10.240that time and again. I would say to add to what you're saying, though, another issue that I have
00:55:15.160with the media and that I feel like I see more and more is just that when you think about political
00:55:19.600media, you think about people who are in the bubble of Ottawa, who have particular relationships,
00:55:27.140are speaking to particular issues, who are speaking to particular people about the issues
00:55:33.000of the day, and thus are hearing what the different political parties are thinking about
00:55:38.820those issues, but not necessarily thinking beyond that or thinking about a broader discussion of
00:55:44.920what these issues might mean for people, what these decisions might mean for people. And I
00:55:50.000think that really impoverishes the discourse, because you have media figures who have relationships
00:55:55.880with powerful people, with politicians, who chum around with them, who buddy around with them.
00:56:00.420And I think that impoverishes, you know, not just journalism, but, you know, the discourse and what Canadians hear about the issues that are important to us, right, that are going to affect our lives.
00:56:13.520And it's a very small thing, but I think that you can very clearly see that in the recent discussions about the longest ballot initiative, right?
00:56:21.900You know, all of these people kind of putting their names forward to go on the ballot.
00:56:25.260I'm not even saying it's an initiative I think is great or worthwhile or that I think is useful, right?
00:56:34.340But at the same time, there is a consensus among politicians and political media people that this is abhorrent, that this is terrible.
00:56:47.160If you watch the clips, one of the first things they tend to do when they talk about this is pull out the ballot from the Carlton riding and say, look at how many names are on this. Look at how big it is. How can anyone possibly vote this way?
00:56:59.640And in so doing, they're not just repeating, you know, the narratives of the political class, you know, that benefit from not having a longest ballot initiative or something like that, but are really not having that broader conversation of what do people outside of Parliament Hill think about this?
00:57:20.180What do academics think about this? And I would argue that in taking and adopting the perspective of these politicians on what the longest ballot initiative is, again, not even being particularly a supporter of it, that they have legitimized a restriction in democratic rights.
00:57:39.440Sure, it's a very small thing, right? How many signatures or whatnot that you need to run on a ballot. But I would say that they have contributed to the legitimization of a very small curtailment of democratic rights in the country by using arguments that I think are not always the most valid, but are certainly annoying for certain political leaders and political parties.
00:58:02.660Yeah, I have to say, like, I, I have vented about the longest ballot initiative, and I have a lot of issues with it. But I was really concerned when I saw Pierre Polyev talking about wanting to legislate around this, because I do think that once you get into the realm of legislating, who can put their name on a ballot?
00:58:24.520um i was like that is a big thing to dig into and try to put limitations on um that are stricter
00:58:32.420than what we currently have so i um yeah that that kind of made me uh my laugh turned into a
00:58:39.220um yeah so it's a really good point it's like not thinking through the implications of the
00:58:45.720narratives that they that they um amplify right and the positions that that they take um you know
00:58:52.980and we could talk about a ton of issues a ton of examples of that um you know obviously it was kind
00:59:00.200of shocking or soon after october 7th and seeing the way that the media was presenting israel right
00:59:06.580and not believing um you know the very credible reports from gaza about what the israeli army
00:59:14.940was doing right and it became much later that they started to kind of wake up to um what was
00:59:22.020actually happening and being like oh maybe the israelis are lying to us but even then maybe you
00:59:26.540still see israel gets the benefit of the doubt in in a lot of this reporting right the recent kind
00:59:32.400of talk about how israel is going to start allowing more humanitarian aid and all this kind of stuff
00:59:38.360right the media politicians they all grabbed onto that even though we have seen this story many times
00:59:43.800before we know how it plays out we know it's going to be a trickle and it's going to be useless
00:59:47.700because their goal is starvation and genocide um you know and you're the media is very frustrating
00:59:54.380obfuscate that when you exactly their narrative so yeah yeah um speaking of uh really important
01:00:03.420conversations from the media justin trudeau and katie perry
01:00:07.780i couldn't finish this conversation without us touching on the biggest political news story
01:00:16.640that has rocked north america do you think they're a good match what do you think uh
01:00:23.100they probably are a good match which is terrible
01:00:25.380and i kind of think that's like insulting to both of them
01:00:29.540i also think like i think justin trudeau dating katie perry is kind of like an insult to canadians
01:00:36.840personally like this is our former prime minister he should not be shaming us from newfoundland
01:00:42.000you know like this is what i thought yeah no wonder you're extra i know yeah there there were0.98
01:00:49.460there were like rumors he was down here and was dating i don't know maybe that was all bullshit0.99
01:00:53.320i have no idea this is what was circulating shit chat like exactly like wildfire around the rock0.99
01:00:59.100yeah but it's like i don't know justin like what are you doing man come on like uh it's it's0.86
01:01:08.140disappointing and i think it's actually interesting because it's also a media story in a way right
01:01:12.580um this is the kind of stuff that canadian media does not report on because there's kind of like
01:01:18.500an accepted uh kind of i don't know truce is not the right word but it's kind of accepted
01:01:24.880between media and in the political class that the personal lives of the politicians are you know
01:01:31.280out of bounds unless it becomes political right um and the only reason i think that this story
01:01:37.280was really picked up on and reported in canada is because you had tmz and stuff reporting on it in
01:01:42.320the states and so then you know the publications up here were like okay i guess we need to publish
01:01:47.260a story on this but i think otherwise like it just would have been something that circulates online
01:01:52.740and that we all kind of know but that doesn't really get uh i guess legitimized in this way
01:01:58.400right only paris could find a way to turn the justin trudeau katie perry story into a broader
01:02:05.180criticism of the state of our media ecosystem in canada and not even a criticism no but i actually
01:02:13.660think it's okay that they don't report on the person i don't know but i i do think that there
01:02:17.180is a line that like sometimes that um facilitates a lack of reporting on things that do matter like0.94
01:02:23.180to give you an example like anaida polyev has been she's been doing like this weird trad wife blog
01:02:29.340and i'm not seeing like i've reported on it a little bit but i'm not really seeing people touch
01:02:33.580on that and i think that that's really significant because she's turning out to be a pretty
01:02:38.300prominent female figure in the conservative movement in this country and like by not touching
01:02:43.980on that we're kind of ignoring something that i think is a brewing issue that that will potentially
01:02:50.700worsen so um yeah so maybe there is something to have a legitimate critique of uh the justin
01:02:57.980trudeau katy perry pair oh my god i also want to say justin don't do it don't do it
01:03:04.540call the nuns justin check in with the nuns they have stories
01:03:10.320anyway oh right this is the right okay sorry yeah did you know but yeah right we were texting
01:03:17.080about the nun thing a little bit i i don't know i did not know until until people were
01:03:22.780in my replies yesterday being like she's a nun killer i was like what are you guys all
01:03:26.460talking about i mean to be fair i do think there's apparently more to that story than what has
01:03:32.300circulated um you know but yeah she did uh there was a legal battle between her trying to purchase
01:03:40.120like land or a convent or something and a nun apparently did die and before dying said please
01:03:46.680katy perry stop or something like that there's an incredible washington post headline on it but
01:03:51.860anyway um on this note maybe if we want to do the positive spin we could just say the
01:03:57.220former prime minister might be dating an astronaut you know
01:03:59.960oh my god sorry i'm sorry dating julie paillette that'd be let's start a new rumor okay well
01:04:12.340on this note of a little bit of levity after we talked about some pretty heavy stuff
01:04:17.900um we are this is the season finale of bubble pop so people are gonna have to wait a few weeks at
01:04:26.580least until they get a little more uh of me at least and i don't know you can probably find
01:04:31.740paris everywhere paris is always working but um i'm still gonna have episodes you know yeah
01:04:38.120does this mean the bubble has popped and you need to like blow a new one yeah i gotta get some more
01:04:43.500I don't even know what it is, that bubble juice.