Culture Study Podcast - May 29, 2024


Are Millennials the Most Nostalgic Generation?


Episode Stats


Length

53 minutes

Words per minute

185.31

Word count

10,000

Sentence count

231

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Toxicity

9

sentences flagged

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.860 Hey, it's Melody. Today's full episode is free for everyone. And if you ask me, it is Culture Study Catnip.
00:00:08.000 I don't know if you know this, but I got my radio and podcasting start in news and politics.
00:00:12.620 And I cannot imagine a scenario in which I would have been able to successfully pitch an hour-long show about the cultural force that is nostalgia.
00:00:21.380 But because Anne and I are doing this thing totally on our own, we can.
00:00:24.740 And that's all thanks to our subscribers, who pitch in a few bucks a month to keep us going.
00:00:30.000 Making a good podcast is a ton of work, but when it's done well, you can't really see or hear the
00:00:36.720 work that goes into it. I think of it like taxidermy. When it's done well, you're like,
00:00:42.660 yeah, that's what a deer looks like. That's what a good conversation sounds like. But when it's bad,
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00:01:03.860 to Anne's newsletter, you should have a promo code in your email somewhere to get a discount
00:01:08.340 on the podcast. And if you already support the podcast, I don't really know why you're
00:01:13.180 listening to this full intro, but I really, really appreciate you. Okay, this intro has
00:01:18.820 fully made me nostalgic for the olden days of public radio fun drives I used to have
00:01:23.820 to do. So consider this a segue on with the show. I asked you to come up with a commercial from your
00:01:30.580 childhood that has stuck with you. And this is what you brought. Little cinnamon gum freshens
00:01:36.740 breath longer than Big Red. So kiss a little longer. Stay close a little longer. Hold tight 1.00
00:01:43.740 a little longer. Longer with Big Red. This is so evocative to me. Like I know exactly why were
00:01:52.760 gum commercials we should say this is a commercial for big red for good gun which i don't think you
00:01:59.880 could even buy anymore yeah i don't know i haven't been on the lookout for big red i had to stop
00:02:07.660 chewing big red when i was a kid i chewed too much and and couldn't taste anything for a little while
00:02:12.800 as a teenager i i was so enticed by this big red jingle i was like well i gotta i gotta do it so
00:02:21.460 So you burned your mouth, basically, on big red cinnamon gum?
00:02:24.640 Yeah, yeah.
00:02:25.180 It was on a school trip.
00:02:26.740 Like, I was just, I had a big pack of big red and just kept chewing it.
00:02:35.580 This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson.
00:02:39.320 And I'm Gabe Bullard.
00:02:40.340 I'm a freelance journalist, and I write the newsletter Number One with a Bullard
00:02:43.860 and Together Alone about TV criticism.
00:02:46.000 so like commercials I think for people of our age and older are a really profound part of like
00:02:55.620 our nostalgia backdrop and the one that I did you did Melody did you send him the one that I picked
00:03:03.100 yes um okay can we watch that one yeah let me grab it
00:03:16.000 all these like cherubic white kids playing hungry hungry which is just a game where you like 0.66
00:03:28.920 mash on a button and try to get these white marbles that are so light like they would always
00:03:34.380 get lost so easily we had hungry hippos which is part of the reason i'm maybe because of this
00:03:39.720 commercial but that particular iteration of the the jingle what's the base what's the real song
00:03:46.640 do you know what it is i'm trying to remember i don't know but i do remember there was a um
00:03:50.600 a gummy candy i think called amazing it's amazing yes yeah they use the same it's amazing fruit yes
00:03:58.020 i sing it all the time i sing it to my dogs and so i do it to amazing fruit and also to
00:04:05.500 Hungry Hungry Hippos. You know, we couldn't watch television without watching commercials.
00:04:11.660 And, you know, they were trying to put commercials for kids, wedge those commercials into the times
00:04:17.340 when we were most likely to be watching television. And there weren't that many commercials for kids.
00:04:23.020 So you'd get a lot of repetition. So if you're watching Nickelodeon or Saturday morning cartoons,
00:04:27.260 you would see these commercials again and again and again.
00:04:30.600 All the time. Yeah. And they would play. It seemed like commercials lasted for years and years,
00:04:34.680 like that big red jingle i was looking into it i think that started in 1979 and ran through the
00:04:40.980 90s there's all these different versions of it i remember one where a horse was singing it
00:04:44.840 in the ad uh or sang part of it and it is so lodged in my memory at this point versus i can't even
00:04:52.300 think of a new commercial jingle beyond uh the oh oh oh zimpik one from a few years ago like
00:04:59.160 the only ads I see now are like pharmaceutical ads on on streaming services I hear some on the
00:05:07.180 radio yeah in part because like it's such you know a audio format that you are in order to like
00:05:15.760 get the name of the place in your head they use a jingle to like imprint it that way but I think
00:05:21.440 like we have that so seldom now with television ads or even the idea that like you would have
00:05:26.680 a jingle that would endure for 10 years the way that some of these did, right?
00:05:31.840 Yeah, yeah. One thing I was thinking even, I think most of the phone numbers I can still recall now
00:05:37.520 probably came from TV jingles. When I moved, I got a new phone number. I don't know with certainty
00:05:45.000 the phone number that I have now, but I can tell you the phone number of the windshield repair
00:05:50.540 service that advertised on local TV when I was a kid. Like I know that number, but my own cell
00:05:57.380 number, I have to like, pause for a second when I tell people now. Okay, so we're gonna back up a
00:06:03.100 little bit here. And from talking about commercials and like our nostalgia, like, it's one of those
00:06:08.060 things I feel like if you're at a dinner party, and someone brings up a particularly evocative
00:06:13.920 commercial, and you have a lot of other people who were also raised in places where they were
00:06:20.120 playing that commercial and then you can just like spitball and everyone's like oh you remember this
00:06:24.600 one like oh let's watch that one on youtube and it becomes this whole like conversation driver
00:06:30.700 you're talking about commercials like this is so weird that you're talking about
00:06:36.300 the attempts by large conglomerates to sell us like cheap plastic hippo games um but i do think
00:06:43.620 that it allows it creates a sense of connection and this is our way into talking about nostalgia
00:06:49.820 and particularly generational nostalgia,
00:06:54.640 how it shifts between generations,
00:06:57.160 how generations try to claim different memories
00:06:59.860 as something that is specifically theirs,
00:07:02.740 all of those things.
00:07:03.920 That's what we're talking about today.
00:07:05.140 So I think I'd like to start to see
00:07:07.280 if you can define nostalgia for us.
00:07:10.720 Well, I'll try, actually.
00:07:12.700 I know, right?
00:07:13.660 It's one of those things.
00:07:14.420 It's like, I know it when I see it,
00:07:15.960 but what is it, right?
00:07:17.160 Yeah, because it's really evolved over the years. There's the idea of it was originally homesickness and, you know, identified in Swiss mercenaries hundreds of years ago. But when I think about nostalgia, I think of this sort of modern feeling, this longing for the past and sort of warm feelings for the past.
00:07:37.560 And through the research that I've read, I think nostalgia is an emotion.
00:07:42.680 It's a core emotion of being human.
00:07:45.300 It's something that studies indicate rises when we're not totally happy with how things are going in the present.
00:07:52.580 We might be feeling a little bit down.
00:07:54.200 And we look to the past in a warm way.
00:07:56.620 And it's a little different than a straight-ahead memory because we have kind of a different effect.
00:08:01.380 We get some of the good brain chemicals whenever we go on a little bit of a nostalgia trip.
00:08:05.400 and it helps give us a bit of grounding a bit of sense of of who we are adds a little bit of
00:08:11.740 meaning to the present i think the the example that a lot of people use is it's very sad when
00:08:17.280 when a loved one passes away but there's that point of thinking well i'm i'm sad that this
00:08:22.960 person is gone but i'm glad to have known them and i'm glad i had that experience and that
00:08:27.620 experience has shaped me in this way and that person has shaped me in this way and it sort of
00:08:32.740 gives you that bit of meaning and that bit of a boost afterward of thinking, nostalgia gives you
00:08:38.960 that bit of a boost of thinking, okay, I've made it this far. Here's how I got here. I can keep
00:08:44.740 going, that sort of thing. So I think if you're unhappy with the present, it can be a really good
00:08:49.220 way of pointing out that you're able to keep going. And that to me falls under the umbrella
00:08:55.260 of mental coping nostalgia, right? Like coping mechanism, positive nostalgia. And then I think
00:09:02.720 that it can also be wielded in really damaging ways. I think the most salient example right now
00:09:08.620 is probably Make America Great Again, which is evoking a past that has been, that is based on
00:09:19.500 memories that aren't full, right? Like based on a sliver of understanding of what the past used to
00:09:25.800 be like, and using that as a weapon, cudgel, like using it to justify various policies and various
00:09:36.640 racism and various styles of thinking in order to bring us back to that imagined place.
00:09:42.300 Yeah. And there's a good bit of writing, book and essay and everything from this theorist,
00:09:48.660 Svetlana Boym. And she had distinguished between reflective nostalgia, which is
00:09:54.400 thinking back on the past a fond memory a tv commercial that you know makes you happy to
00:09:59.760 to go on youtube and watch and restorative nostalgia which is where you try to actually
00:10:04.080 bring the past back or or recreate the past and that's where i see something like maga and
00:10:09.900 and this idea of firmly deciding the past was better therefore we must bring it back
00:10:16.680 and i think where that really starts to create some trouble too is that it halts progress not
00:10:23.720 just progress from where we are now forward, but progress from whatever that imagined point was in
00:10:29.400 the past. Somebody could say that they really long for any year, 1955 or whatever. But the thing
00:10:37.440 about people in 1955 was it was 1956 and then 1957 until we get to today. Whereas I think with
00:10:44.840 a lot of restorative nostalgia, there's this idea of, no, we need to recreate the past and we need
00:10:49.740 to not move forward at all and we need to freeze everything in that time and it's impossible but
00:10:55.760 it's also really dangerous because not everyone is going to agree on what that past was not everyone
00:11:02.720 is going to have all the details you're besides just not being able to physically recreate it or
00:11:08.940 anything your version of the past of an ideal past is going to be different from someone else's
00:11:13.860 and it's not going to be that that complete picture and so you could have a lot of people who
00:11:18.960 want to bring back a certain era and they're going to agree on certain things they're going
00:11:23.240 to disagree on others and there's going to be a whole lot of people who don't want the past
00:11:27.620 brought back at all like that and and disagree as well so it's this really dangerous type of
00:11:34.600 of thinking that you can get into when you get into the restorative nostalgia where i do think
00:11:39.380 there could be some some positives uh the writer mark fisher had theorized i think he used the
00:11:45.080 term hauntology for this uh which is this idea of bring back elements from the past not so much to
00:11:51.560 live in the past but to almost get a do-over like take the road not taken if you're not happy with
00:11:58.160 with where we are right now think back to a point where maybe things were a little bit better and
00:12:03.140 what were the steps that could be taken differently and i think that's a that's an intriguing idea as
00:12:08.060 well that's a lot healthier than restorative nostalgia of saying i have an idea of the past
00:12:13.840 And you and everyone else has to come with me to that idea of the past versus, okay, here's what we liked about a certain era. Here was something positive that we've lost. How could we take steps to bring it back to something that if things do get worse or if we find that certain elements of modern life aren't what we had hoped for or aren't as good as something in the past, how could we bring that back?
00:12:39.480 I mean, I think about when I get together with my college friends, we spend a good amount of time laughing hysterically about stupid shit that we did. Right. Like just weird, like awkward, also, you know, just memories like and part of the retelling of those memories and the retelling of those stories is is cementing them in memory, mythologizing them to some extent. 0.99
00:13:03.840 And the important thing, I think, is that we can't let our gatherings exclusively be that.
00:13:12.600 Otherwise, you make no new memories to mythologize.
00:13:16.180 Right. You know, the reminiscence of the old times can be really helpful in a lot of ways because nostalgia isn't just remembering the past.
00:13:24.840 It's rewriting the past for yourself, rewriting it and sort of turning even what might have been a negative experience into a positive.
00:13:32.660 You know, it ended up making me stronger. I wasn't happy then, but I got through it. Here's how I did it. I'm, you know, I'm stronger. I'm more resilient because of that.
00:13:41.320 But I think that recognizing when you're doing it and recognizing that that's happening is really the key to breaking out of it, because I think it is so easy to just fall into and it's easier now than ever before, I think, to fall into this sort of nostalgic reverie and completely lose sight of the need to to do something new, the need to create those new memories.
00:14:04.340 you know i like just as much as the next person going on to youtube and looking at at old ads or
00:14:09.740 or watching an old show or something like that but you could spend all your time doing it and
00:14:14.900 just end up rejecting all modernity basically rejecting anything that that exists anymore
00:14:20.380 and live completely in that world and and at that point it it just becomes isolating you know what
00:14:26.080 what is and should be a really nice social force of you know bringing people together to to talk
00:14:31.760 about a shared experience becomes just kind of sitting alone in your room watching, you
00:14:37.160 know, big red commercials on YouTube or something, which isn't going to isn't going to help make
00:14:41.940 new memories, isn't going to be something that, you know, in 20 years, you'll sit down
00:14:45.980 with somebody and say, like, oh, remember when when I texted you after I watched a bunch
00:14:49.920 of gum commercials?
00:14:53.000 So you write really wonderfully about nostalgia in your newsletter.
00:14:56.220 And I'm curious if there is a topic that you received a lot of reader feedback on that you're like, wow, I didn't realize people were so nostalgic about this.
00:15:08.180 oh gosh um i think the one thing that really has touched a nerve has been this idea of
00:15:18.440 particularly what do you do if you recognize that things weren't great in the past but you like
00:15:26.460 something from the past or if you even make you know this this assessment and decide okay maybe
00:15:34.100 things were actually better in this regard and where i've written about it before has been with
00:15:39.080 movies in particular that you know we're going now from a really digital heavy virtual world
00:15:45.020 and for millennials and older we're looking from a modern world into a more physical tactile world
00:15:54.660 like from from a place where almost everything's created digitally to a place where things were
00:15:59.700 done in this older way and so there's this huge gap in material quality that you see in movies
00:16:05.560 and you know you talk to people about movies that really hold up special effects that look great and
00:16:11.160 jurassic park and the matrix come up and these are movies that jaws exactly like these old movies
00:16:18.040 where there's a material quality that holds up you know these movies that are decades old
00:16:23.600 hold up now still after all these years more than a superhero movie made last year does when you're
00:16:29.920 when you're looking at it and so i think there is this conflict sometimes of thinking well i'm not
00:16:36.060 a restorative nostalgist i'm not a person who wants to you know like i reject anything about
00:16:41.340 maga that sort of thing like i don't want to to bring back the past but at the same time hey
00:16:46.520 things were made better back then like movies looked better you did the episode on clothing
00:16:51.400 quality and you know looking back and going to a thrift store sometimes it's really hard not to
00:16:57.320 just be nostalgic for an era when clothes were made better made to last differently and i think
00:17:02.460 that that's something that when i've written about that people have really responded to
00:17:05.900 because i think it's a conflict that other generations haven't necessarily had to deal with
00:17:11.920 in quite the same way and it's something that i think feels really pressing because not only are
00:17:16.920 things made differently but when it comes to arts and culture if they just hold a different place in
00:17:22.320 in society now in a streaming era culture just feels different it doesn't quite hit in the same
00:17:28.300 way it doesn't quite look the same way we experience it so differently that being nostalgic
00:17:33.340 isn't necessarily just being nostalgic for a particular movie or a particular show or a
00:17:38.660 particular song it's for the place that that held in in the culture that we lived in at the time
00:17:44.080 And the way that everything existed around it that is really hard to hard to reckon with sometimes.
00:17:51.080 I totally agree with you about like what a massive shift that we've gone through in terms of aesthetic quality and other forms of quality as well.
00:17:59.800 But the one thing aesthetically that I might think was also very difficult to grapple with was the transition to color for our grandparents and great grandparents generation.
00:18:12.300 watching some movies and then many movies and then all movies transitioned into color
00:18:17.760 television transitioned into color people who still had black and white tv sets because like
00:18:22.880 that was the way that they wanted to watch things or that was the way that they understood like
00:18:27.420 how a tv show should look and i think that that probably like i wish i would love to read a study
00:18:33.600 of how people articulated their feelings about that transition to color at that time because
00:18:39.380 it was celebrated right and like you can read the trade press about like the marvels of technicolor 0.96
00:18:44.220 but i also think that there were people who were like this looks like shit yeah the same way that 0.96
00:18:49.980 i look at digital stuff and i'm like this looks like shit give me you know give me a very 0.97
00:18:54.480 traditional traditionally filmed on film oh totally yeah and and i think with with sound 0.73
00:19:01.460 coming to movies too the whole idea of yeah like there's always i think going to be a level of
00:19:07.380 discomfort with with change. And I think where I am really interested in in that conundrum is
00:19:13.580 how do you even know if you're being as objective as as you might want to be when you're making an
00:19:19.600 assessment like this? Like, if I look at at a movie right now, like with a lot of digital effects
00:19:24.680 and everything, I might think like, gosh, this looks terrible. I missed the way that you know,
00:19:28.520 that a movie had been made before. But then at the same time, it's like, okay, but how much of
00:19:33.480 this is just I was used to one thing? Yeah, like I was used to black and white. Now I'm not used to
00:19:37.360 color like and and so i think that's probably is behind what is really setting off a lot of
00:19:43.400 the discussion around it when i write about it is that question of people sort of saying i don't
00:19:49.280 know for the life of me i really can't find that this is as solid as well made as the things that
00:19:55.340 i remember the movies that i watched you know 20 30 years ago i i think where the other element
00:20:00.520 is is to not necessarily make that a judgment of overall taste and quality like movies may
00:20:09.540 look bad music I don't think sounds worse now but it does hold a different place in culture
00:20:14.700 in in the streaming era and everything it's not that it's worse made like people didn't get worse
00:20:20.920 at writing movies necessarily or worse at making music it's just that so so I think it's important
00:20:28.020 to not take that sort of you know the construction idea or the presentation idea or the the sort of
00:20:33.980 cultural place idea and use that as a well people just don't know how to you know be creative
00:20:39.480 anymore or something like that and i think that's the other yeah no the other element that gets so
00:20:44.300 tricky is kind of thinking you know like oh well i could say that movies don't look as good now but
00:20:49.120 i'm not trying to say that i want to live in you know the year 1995 or anything like that because
00:20:53.920 there was also a lot of really bad stuff then too and I think that's the other issue that we grapple
00:20:58.900 with so much is for a large part or at least in our own minds our view of the past is kind of a
00:21:03.980 highlight reel like we're seeing the best of it when I was a kid at least I loved late night
00:21:08.140 television and you can watch some great clips of late night television but at the same time there
00:21:14.060 were multiple late night shows every single day like the clips that we remember the really like
00:21:18.900 amazing interviews and excellent moments and everything are such a tiny fraction of what we
00:21:23.660 see of the hours and hours and hours of just kind of somebody juggling or a comedian who's just
00:21:30.480 terrible like there was a lot that wasn't great and what we retain is the best of it and I think
00:21:35.900 it's always important to kind of keep that in context of like well the things that last are
00:21:39.300 the things that last because they're really good or they're really meaningful to us and as much as
00:21:44.360 i might like uh a certain era of filmmaking there's a lot that i could look back on that was
00:21:49.760 made in those times and think like oh this is terrible i would never want to watch this i
00:21:52.880 wouldn't want to live in the 1930s like the peak 1930s peak of like the classic hollywood period 0.97
00:21:59.620 like so many amazing films coming out of it like 1939 arguably the apex also so much shit like 0.98
00:22:06.420 unbelievable amounts of shit like derivative b-movie unwatchable dreck most of which is also 0.92
00:22:13.700 not even available to watch now because it never made the like arduous transition into being 0.99
00:22:19.020 available on DVD. So that's a great point. Melody's yelling at me. I can feel it. She's not actually
00:22:25.520 yelling at me, but she's like vibing me. She's like, you've been talking about nostalgia as a
00:22:31.000 concept for half an hour and you have not gotten to a single listener question. So we're going to
00:22:35.960 start and just continue this conversation. So this first one is from Megan. Does each generation
00:22:41.580 experience a wave of generational nostalgia, perhaps when they stop being the dominant
00:22:45.560 generation and much of pop culture? Or is there something unique to this moment in time or unique
00:22:50.540 to the millennial generation? All right. So I know from reading you and also from reading others that
00:22:56.160 this is not a contemporary phenomenon. Where have you seen and read about and where have historians
00:23:04.420 situated moments of deep nostalgia for other eras yeah so the the writer I mentioned Svetlana
00:23:12.360 she's done some writing about in in countries before a revolution sometimes there might be
00:23:18.480 an uptick in nostalgia all of that what I'm really interested in is some of the earliest
00:23:24.540 writing I was able to find that went really deep on popular culture and nostalgia came out in the
00:23:30.880 1970s there's this uh paper by fred davis in 1977 where he's looking at the culture of the 70s
00:23:39.340 and essentially saying what's going on because the past is everywhere right now yeah and he kind of
00:23:44.200 pins it on the end of the 60s all this upheaval watergate everything that was going on and and
00:23:50.580 then looking at the 1970s it is an extremely nostalgic time there were he writes a bit about
00:23:58.240 the Revival movie houses
00:24:00.240 that were playing, you know, Bogart movies
00:24:02.160 and W.C. Fields and Laurel and Hardy.
00:24:04.560 But Happy Days was on TV
00:24:06.180 in the 70s. There was Grease. There was
00:24:08.120 American Graffiti. All these movies
00:24:10.360 even that go back into the 30s.
00:24:12.760 Chinatown and Paper Moon 0.89
00:24:14.100 and Bound for Glory and Dillinger
00:24:16.400 and Day of the Locust, Great
00:24:18.240 Gatsby. The Sting,
00:24:20.660 one of the most popular
00:24:22.260 movies made. A movie that
00:24:24.360 helped bring Ragtime back.
00:24:26.260 Scott Joplin had a number three hit. 0.76
00:24:28.020 I know, the repopularized Ragtime.
00:24:30.400 And even looking at music in the 70s beyond the Ragtime revival, which is wild, you know,
00:24:38.200 one of the few EGOTs is Marvin Hamlisch, who did the score for The Sting, and he did a
00:24:44.360 lot of work.
00:24:44.800 He wasn't solely working in old forms, but he had the hit with The Entertainer, a song
00:24:49.180 that had been on, you know, Wax Cylinder before, maybe on Wax Cylinder, I think Sheep
00:24:53.320 music, surely, you know, becomes is number three on the charts. But also, you know, mainstream
00:24:59.660 rock music at the time, really picked up this nostalgic wave of incorporating a lot of kind
00:25:05.360 of old timey country into rock music at the time, where rock kind of split off in the 60s. And
00:25:10.580 soul went in one direction and funk went in one direction. But a whole lot of artists went into
00:25:15.740 more country influenced music. I mean, the biggest band, maybe the biggest American band ever is
00:25:21.800 the eagles who you know lifted a lot of those sort of like country sounds uh punk rock you know the
00:25:28.060 clash uh with their pompadours and they toured with beau diddley and london calling's full of
00:25:32.980 references to the 50s and the ramones have their uh kind of bubblegum pop era and everything so
00:25:37.920 i think the 70s were a time when people thinking about nostalgia and culture were thinking okay
00:25:46.660 something's going on here and something is driving this huge wave of nostalgia for the 50s for the
00:25:53.040 30s for the early 1900s i suppose in the case of uh of ragtime music and what i think is interesting
00:26:01.640 about that though compared to now is that it was sort of an inexact copy that that anybody was
00:26:09.480 going off of that there wasn't you know you couldn't go to the record store and buy a scott
00:26:16.000 Joplin record. You couldn't, you know, the idea of the 50s, the idea of the 30s was what people
00:26:23.040 had just sort of gleaned from seeing culture from that era versus now, you know, I have a
00:26:30.000 little pencil box on my desk here that I brought back from my childhood room and it's got the
00:26:34.540 multiplication tables on it and a pencil sharpener and everything. This was my brother's when he was
00:26:39.000 a kid. I used it when I was a kid. I just liked it and brought it with me one time after I was
00:26:43.020 visiting my folks and I wanted to put a new blade on the pencil sharpener I was like oh it'd be cool
00:26:47.620 if this you know worked again and I go online I could buy these they're like 20 bucks on eBay
00:26:52.780 and within like a minute I could have one shipped to me any other era if you wanted something like
00:26:58.620 that that you had had as a child you would have to scour junk stores for you would have to call
00:27:03.400 around and say oh does anybody have this versus now we have such a precise replica we have such
00:27:08.820 a high fidelity version of the past available to us, that we can buy the old items instantly
00:27:13.760 online. We can look at very, very precise pictures, media reports, everything like
00:27:19.740 that version of the past is there. We can pull up any album, any movie, any show that's streaming.
00:27:26.020 It's so easy to get this high fidelity version of the past that I think makes modern nostalgia
00:27:31.720 really different from the wave in the seventies or, you know, even thinking of the fifties
00:27:37.200 nostalgia of something like back to the future and that kind of interrogation of it and everything
00:27:40.700 that it's just so much it's higher fidelity and it's frictionless almost to a degree now and i
00:27:47.480 think that really kind of changes how how it affects us i think it actually cheapens it i'm
00:27:53.340 sure that others would maybe disagree with me but i think like there's something lovely about the
00:27:59.140 moment again at like a dinner party where you're trying to remember the jingle of uh of the big
00:28:04.800 red commercial and everyone has to be like oh it went something like this i think it went like this
00:28:10.580 like and you kind of sing it together whereas now you just look it up on youtube and you're like oh
00:28:15.420 yeah that was it that was precisely it the immediacy of the referent actually shuts down
00:28:23.000 some of that really interesting like attempts to excavate memory um that are very generative
00:28:29.140 and community building as well yeah i and i think you see that in popular culture as well that when
00:28:35.260 you have to do that extra work of trying to remember it and when it's a little bit inexact
00:28:39.740 you kind of end up with making something that's going to be newer uh i'm thinking of of in movies
00:28:47.140 you know movies from the 90s that maybe referenced movies of the 70s and it's like oh this shot calls
00:28:52.720 to mind this other movie this shot calls to mind this other movie they're not as accurately framed
00:28:58.100 Because, you know, if you're directing a film in 1995, it's not going to be easy to go, you know, pull up a movie from 1972 and exactly frame your shot the same way.
00:29:08.140 It's like going from that memory.
00:29:09.860 And I think that's one thing that kind of helps keep nostalgia as a positive force is thinking through, you know, oh, I like the way that this looked.
00:29:20.280 I like the way that this sounded.
00:29:21.380 so if i want to make something or if i want to hear something new i'm going to go for something
00:29:26.160 that reminds me of it and you don't have that ability to do that exact comparison one thing i
00:29:31.180 was thinking of is uh i remember when i was a kid and the white stripes were making a new album
00:29:37.300 and it was all over the news about how they decided just to use analog recording equipment
00:29:42.120 because they wanted to get a certain old sound and that was written about in every review whereas
00:29:47.880 now there's a lot of albums that call to mind the sounds of the past that use newer technology to
00:29:53.620 recreate these sounds. And it's really cool. And it's really interesting. But nobody really remarks
00:29:59.200 on it as you know, the the links that someone went to to recreate a sound of a few decades ago,
00:30:04.360 that it's just sort of there. And it's kind of taken for granted that that we have accessed all
00:30:08.980 that now, versus the idea of, you know, even within our lifetimes, it was really hard to try
00:30:15.180 to recreate that sound in a way that could be believable or could be accepted.
00:30:20.600 So it just kind of changes the effect it has on us because I think we can just take for
00:30:25.400 granted that it used to be much harder to access the past, so we had to look to the
00:30:29.940 future.
00:30:30.340 We had to enjoy the present a little bit more, that we couldn't just sort of live with what
00:30:36.220 we used to have.
00:30:37.760 So the second part of the question we didn't really get to, which is, is there something
00:30:41.760 to do with what happens when a generation is no longer the quote-unquote dominant generation.
00:30:47.340 But I think we'll be able to address this a little bit in the answer to the second question.
00:30:52.280 So this is from Carrie.
00:30:53.660 Are millennials the most nostalgic?
00:30:56.140 Why have I felt so drawn to letterpress note cards with the Pyrex pattern of my childhood,
00:31:01.620 the American Girl dolls and magazines boxed up at my parents' house,
00:31:05.520 and favorite books from childhood that I want to read with my own kid?
00:31:09.220 How are millennials, in particular, dealing with favorites that didn't age well, looking at you, Richard Scarry's Busy Busy World book, that hold such a dear place in our memories?
00:31:20.720 So I think millennials are very nostalgic.
00:31:24.680 I think that we are nostalgic right now because of what the previous listener noted, which is that we are no longer at the vanguard of culture making.
00:31:34.380 right like we are we are we're moving out of that of that position and so some of the way
00:31:41.760 that you deal with that i don't know if it's exactly grief that reality which is just getting
00:31:47.400 older is i think sometimes returning to the things that made you feel young definitely and i think
00:31:55.560 there's some pretty good science that helps explain some of this so if we think of nostalgia
00:32:00.200 is something that kind of rises when we're not totally happy with the present or when
00:32:05.800 the present is a little bit uncertain.
00:32:08.180 Well, there's internal and external factors to that.
00:32:10.720 External could be the state of the world, politics, just not being happy with what you
00:32:16.220 see on the news and worrying that the world's just kind of all falling apart.
00:32:20.840 But the other is that personal feeling of your place in the world.
00:32:24.460 And yeah, when you're not necessarily at the vanguard of culture, but also when you are just getting older and going through some major life changes, you're buying a house for the first time, you're having kids or, you know, even later in life, your kids are going off to college.
00:32:41.420 Like all these changes that are happening cause this bit of kind of reflection and a reminder of you're not young anymore or your place in the world is changing or your personal responsibilities are changing.
00:32:54.860 And you start looking back at the past and your memories are strongest.
00:32:58.860 They call it the reminiscence bump of that era sort of coming out of childhood into teendom, 20s, young adulthood.
00:33:05.060 Like we have such strong memories that are formed then.
00:33:08.560 And so when you get a little bit older, you're naturally going to become nostalgic because your place in the world is changing and you're going to look back to the era where you have the strongest memories.
00:33:20.020 And that also happens to be an era when maybe you were feeling pretty good because you were young.
00:33:25.320 You were, you know, you can just life was totally different.
00:33:28.900 You had different possibilities ahead of you.
00:33:31.060 It's not that everybody had, you know, a perfect childhood or youth or anything like that. But I think that we just start looking back to where our memories are strongest at these times when we go through these major changes. And millennials are definitely in it right now.
00:33:44.260 I would also say that older millennials and younger Gen X are also at the age where their kids are are that age of like memory making bump. And also those kids, those teens are excavating a lot of the material culture from that period, which I think like brings it back. Right. So you can be nostalgic about or anti nostalgic about a certain article of clothing, that sort of thing.
00:34:12.000 And then the other thing I would say about millennials, and I this is just I think about this constantly, is that we and younger Gen X have memories, like, our lives are very divided between this time when things when like the way that the world worked was significantly different than the way that the world works now.
00:34:36.600 And I mean that in terms of communication. I mean it in terms of how we like documented things and how people went to work, did their work. Digitalization has changed so much. And I like the fact that I did not have a cell phone in college is wild. I developed so many different habits.
00:34:57.040 I understood the way that you make friends like the way that you spend your time when you're
00:35:01.660 waiting in line at the grocery store like all of those things were firmly imprinted while
00:35:06.060 like until I was a young adult and then I went through this massive change and so there is a
00:35:12.900 huge section of my life in that like primary memory making moment where I did not my reality
00:35:18.760 was profoundly different than it is now and we are by no means the first generation to have this
00:35:24.140 happen all of modernity like just fucking people up like in the late 1800s and early 1900s uh
00:35:31.320 and then like what wars do to people like all those sorts of things like this is not new but
00:35:37.800 i do think that that is amplifying a sense of nostalgia that would also just happen if we were
00:35:43.580 like any generation and just reaching this age i i think that's that's a great point and i think
00:35:48.860 it's a bit reductive sometimes to think like oh my phone is the source of all my problems because
00:35:54.060 my phone is the thing that bothers me all the time when when people need to reach me and i'm
00:35:57.780 trying to relax it's the thing that just brings you know trolls and bad news and everything to me
00:36:02.960 and oh there was a time when this thing didn't exist like it's so easy to just think of a time
00:36:07.820 before that and i think living with the memory of that makes it seem almost reachable again to a
00:36:15.440 large degree which is a really interesting and kind of brings me back to that idea of
00:36:20.620 of hauntology even of like what would we do what i think about this a lot with myself because you
00:36:26.640 know i don't have the power to enact you know global change of how we use technology or anything
00:36:31.440 like that and unless everybody subscribes to the newsletters you know um and i could sway them that
00:36:36.900 way no um but i think of it of you know if i got my first smartphone today what would i do differently
00:36:46.340 and how would i use it differently i don't know it's kind of it's a fun little thought experiment
00:36:52.960 but it's one of those things of like would i do anything differently and what would i be missing
00:36:57.020 out on because pretty much everything i do centers around around this digitization but
00:37:01.740 yeah i think it is such a i don't know how we fully wrap our heads around around the way that
00:37:08.020 that life has changed and the way that basically every single task is now done differently than it
00:37:14.180 used to be. Yeah. Nostalgia is how we wrap our heads around it, right? Like that's the simple
00:37:20.020 answer is we're like, oh, I can't really like grapple with this reality. So I'm going to think
00:37:24.840 instead about like how different things used to be and how I appreciate parts of that. Well,
00:37:30.040 and then there's also the parts that we, you know, we forget to appreciate. So this next question
00:37:34.020 grapples with that a little bit. This comes from Tom. Is there some bizarro form of nostalgia
00:37:40.200 where people need to oversell the challenges of years past.
00:37:44.240 The way my parents talk about the 73 gas crisis,
00:37:47.160 you'd swear it lasted the whole decade.
00:37:49.460 I feel like I'm even beginning to see this a little bit
00:37:51.720 with how people talk about the early COVID lockdowns.
00:37:54.840 Do we just feel a need to remember the trials of our past
00:37:58.160 in the same overstated fashion we do our fond memories?
00:38:01.660 Am I going to be lying to kids about how downloading off LimeWire
00:38:04.620 was a capital offense?
00:38:06.680 I love this question.
00:38:08.000 and it reminds me of how my dad so my dad grew up in minnesota and when he would talk about like
00:38:13.260 whenever we would complain about i don't know like walking to the bus stop he's like
00:38:17.220 i had to walk outside in the minnesota snow barefoot uphill both ways and he had he had
00:38:24.420 dachshunds and they would like bite his armpit hair so he would always say with dachshunds
00:38:29.060 hanging from my armpit hair right and this is his way of overstating just how arduous it was
00:38:35.200 growing up in a working class household in minnesota in the 1960s uh and i don't know i
00:38:44.140 think like we remember the past in melodrama right in shades of highest high and lowest low
00:38:50.160 and so it makes sense that the hard stuff felt very hard like the thing that i just always talk
00:38:57.000 about i'm so nostalgic about in terms of college is like when we didn't know where someone was
00:39:02.920 like at night if like you didn't know like where your friend was you just walked around until you
00:39:09.840 found them like you walked around campus you walked through the basements of various houses
00:39:15.400 until you found them right and that is true but it wasn't like in my mind it's become this like
00:39:22.540 can you believe it but i don't know if it was as arduous as we make it out to be i think this goes
00:39:28.440 into sort of that idea of nostalgia being a way of rewriting the story of the past to be a narrative
00:39:37.300 that puts you where you are today and i think that yeah we do want to maybe think of of things as as
00:39:44.900 tougher than they were because it makes us all the stronger for having having been through it of you
00:39:50.120 know like i made it through this time that means i'm tough and i'm great uh you're talking about
00:39:55.600 what your dad's memories are or descriptions i always remember the thing my grandpa would say is
00:40:00.560 he would describe how hard something was and say and then the depression came which was always the
00:40:05.160 idea of uh you know oh it was it's always harder and and yeah like there's always hard times to go
00:40:12.740 through of course but i i think that yeah that we do want to put ourselves in a position of being
00:40:19.140 able to persevere through something that's really tough i think it is good to recognize whenever
00:40:24.300 that turns into a you don't know how good you have it sort of sort of attitude because the flip side
00:40:29.480 of that is that it's really easy to not see how hard something is for for somebody who's who's
00:40:35.000 younger than you or going through a different experience but but yeah i i think that just it's
00:40:39.180 part of nostalgia to look at the good experiences and make them better than they were in the bad
00:40:43.920 experiences make them harder than they were which ends up telling yourself that you've made it
00:40:49.260 through that you're even stronger that that you can sort of do anything so it kind of you know
00:40:53.560 really pumps you up sometimes uh which which could be really beneficial and and that's like
00:40:58.300 one of these joys of nostalgia when it's you know applied in a way that isn't going to be you know
00:41:04.040 all-encompassing trying to remake the world or something is this idea of it's something to think
00:41:08.180 about and something to to sometimes be proud of and as long as yeah you don't tell people that it
00:41:13.240 was some experience maybe that it that it wasn't necessarily i mean we also made it through the
00:41:19.200 threat of federal prosecution for using
00:41:21.240 LimeWire and Napster in our dorm rooms
00:41:23.180 so
00:41:23.520 there was like a commercial
00:41:27.040 of the kids who got sued wasn't there I thought
00:41:28.980 like an Apple commercial yeah
00:41:31.120 I remember
00:41:32.880 I definitely did have some
00:41:35.140 fears that like federal
00:41:37.040 agents would come in and like take the family
00:41:38.980 computer and it's like this is all the evidence
00:41:40.920 we have against Gabe Bullard
00:41:42.200 the giant
00:41:44.980 like gateway desktop
00:41:46.700 just like hauling out
00:41:48.960 a huge beige tower yeah full of full of really low quality mp3s of albums
00:41:56.900 okay so last question is from mary and it's also about the way that we
00:42:02.220 talk about nostalgia just generally what's with the emergence of the phrase core memory
00:42:07.680 what are its origins why am i seeing it everywhere now and what might we have called the same concept
00:42:13.840 three to five years ago, if it even had a name. Have we as a society ever been focused on creating
00:42:20.140 specific types of memories before? I feel like this is a social media thing. And then I also
00:42:27.500 think that it's a intensive parenting thing. By intensive parenting, I mean like the set of
00:42:32.960 practices that are most familiar to bourgeois parents that involve like parenting, meaning a
00:42:40.460 lot of parenting like a lot of activities and supervisions and things like that create core
00:42:47.100 memories right so a core memory could be like you have you feel like oh well we haven't done
00:42:52.900 anything like incredibly special with our kids that they are going to remember forever and that
00:42:57.580 will also somehow imprint that like i am a good parent i think there's something to do with that
00:43:02.740 too like i think this is i think there's a lot of parenting stuff going on i don't know what is
00:43:07.340 your thoughts on this this phenomenon i i think you're right and i also think this is maybe like
00:43:13.460 the the concept of the multiverse almost something that our understanding of it really comes from
00:43:18.740 like sci-fi and movies it's sort of like the um the what do they call them in the spider-verse
00:43:23.780 movie the the canon events but inside out had core memories that was like the right part of a
00:43:29.940 the plot and i feel like maybe that's something too that is kind of shaping some of our understanding
00:43:35.060 of that is is looking at what pop culture is telling us that is happening in our minds or
00:43:39.880 or is important to us and kind of shaping that you know we have that drive we want to understand
00:43:46.180 things as narratives we want to understand that something happens because of something else and
00:43:52.740 i think because of that we want to make a narrative of our own life and these are you know
00:43:57.460 these are the canon events these are the core memories and it's interesting though because
00:44:02.740 every time you remember something your memory is going to be a little bit different and over time
00:44:06.460 it's going to shape and it's going to to sort of fit the narrative the way that you want it to and
00:44:13.640 yeah i wonder also i think this applies really to the to the parenting angle too of how much are
00:44:21.080 you letting something like that or pushing for something like that to to almost define someone's
00:44:27.180 self-image of like my childhood was like this because i have these core memories of this this
00:44:32.280 and this or my child's memories will be good because I am in plan like it's yeah definitely
00:44:37.080 this idea of really trying heavily to shape the narrative through events and then shape the
00:44:42.280 narrative through the description of those events over and over and over right I mean it's so smart
00:44:48.160 picking up the the sci-fi part of this and the fantasy part of this because I think that that
00:44:52.220 actually contributes to this understanding that like we all have this whereas my core memories
00:44:56.140 are not what I think like my mom would if my mom like when she was parenting us was like okay what
00:45:03.540 are the things they're really gonna remember right not the things that like she wasn't gonna be like
00:45:09.640 oh she's really gonna remember the hungry hungry hippos commercial right or like she's really gonna
00:45:17.560 remember the precise look of the shirt she got at the roll away in second grade right like that's a
00:45:25.840 roller rink in in my hometown in idaho like or the cats that were in the barn at my great aunt
00:45:32.000 and uncles like it's not the things that you think it's going to be so you can't really control it i
00:45:37.500 think like you can create core feelings of like you know i can't remember a specific time when i
00:45:44.640 was a kid where like of my mom hugging me and being like i love you so much right but i i remember
00:45:50.860 feeling very loved and very safe, right? So that is a core feeling, but I don't have like
00:45:56.020 a specific memory of it. Exactly. Yeah. I don't think you can deliberately make a core memory.
00:46:01.480 I think that's impossible. The more you try to make a core memory, the less it becomes a core
00:46:04.940 memory. Yeah. I remember being a kid and thinking sometimes, I want to remember this.
00:46:12.120 But I remember thinking that. I don't remember anything that I thought that about.
00:46:15.580 and uh like so funny like i just remember being a kid and at times thinking like i want to remember
00:46:22.240 this i want to remember this moment or something and and i have no idea what it is i mean yeah if
00:46:27.000 i could if i could choose my memories maybe i wouldn't have the big red jingle memorized and
00:46:32.000 i would remember you know a lot of a lot of other things either either educational or just you know
00:46:37.440 spending time with certain people that sort of thing but but yeah like we can't we can't control
00:46:41.600 it the core memory is just going to be something that that slips in there and and yeah we'll be
00:46:47.580 there forever no matter what i also think that the way that we document things is changing maybe
00:46:54.380 how we conceive of this so there are many core memories and this is not a unique phenomenon
00:46:59.620 to me that i have like extrapolated from a handful of family photos right i'm like oh yes this was
00:47:09.380 what it was like when we went to priest lake when i was six and i fell in the mud or this is what it
00:47:15.220 was like when i caught a fish by myself and it's all very much rooted in like a single snapshot
00:47:20.720 and me being like this is what it felt like trying to like recover the the kind of like
00:47:25.940 the palpable experience of that whereas i think if you actually have video of it which many kids
00:47:32.940 are going to have an abundance of video of their childhoods.
00:47:37.760 Is it a memory or is it just video?
00:47:40.600 Is it documentation or is it a memory?
00:47:43.120 Yeah, this is something that I have been really curious about as well when the documentation
00:47:49.900 doesn't match up to what our memory is too.
00:47:52.780 If we're rewriting these memories and if we are getting the nostalgic benefit from
00:47:58.660 that reframing what's going to happen whenever we go back and look at it and and it's not the way
00:48:05.180 we remember it like it's this sort of disconnect that that goes against all the ways that we're
00:48:09.820 kind of wired to to remember things and yeah it seems like that that our ability to recontextualize
00:48:17.300 is going to be lost almost by having this this exact replica of what was there i i think on the
00:48:25.040 on the core memory thing too one thing i kind of worry about sometimes with it is you could almost
00:48:31.240 put and i don't think this is a generational thing i think this is maybe just a natural
00:48:34.820 tendency everybody has if you put so much importance on one event on that event rather
00:48:42.960 than like you were saying on the feeling then you could become really really defensive of
00:48:49.300 everything surrounding that and super protective and hostile sometimes and i think we see that a
00:48:55.680 lot with the media people are nostalgic for sometimes of just being so defensive of it of
00:49:02.280 like no i watched this movie a hundred times when i was a kid and it is perfect and you can't say
00:49:07.500 anything about it and if you do you're wrong that sort of thing or you re-watch it and you don't
00:49:12.380 have those same feelings or maybe parts of it don't hold up and it's kind of a crisis of like
00:49:16.720 wait a second what does that say about me but i think you're right in saying you know the feeling
00:49:20.620 is the important part the feeling is the yeah is is it rather than the exact event rather than the
00:49:26.700 exact you know media property rather than the exact toy that was purchased and made by you know
00:49:32.240 a giant corporation like the feeling around it that's the thing to capture and and kind of
00:49:36.760 remember and and hold dear rather than this product is the thing that that is the key to my past and
00:49:42.960 no one can say anything bad about it you know i have recently re-watched some star trek the
00:49:49.180 next generation which was a staple of my childhood i would come home and it was on it was in
00:49:55.660 syndication so it was on at 4 p.m on abc every single day and it was my way of unwinding like
00:50:01.860 i would have some bagel bites and i would watch star trek the next generation from 4 to 5 p.m
00:50:05.960 and you know especially the first seasons are like you can tell like the first season is made
00:50:13.020 like in 1989 1990 and then it's like just not very good quality and then there's all sorts of
00:50:19.620 episodes that are kind of weird and like doing some weird things with gender politics so many
00:50:24.300 of them are so good but you know none of that changes the fact that this show felt like home
00:50:32.680 to me. I put on that intro sequence and the rush of like release. It's like an exhale to me and
00:50:41.320 nothing like there's part of me that doesn't even need to revisit more. Like I like having that
00:50:47.000 feeling, but it stays so precious in my mind for that reason. That doesn't mean that I can't also
00:50:52.560 realize all of these ways in which it is a flawed text. That doesn't change the feeling that would
00:50:58.300 wash over me when I sat down at 4 p.m. Yeah I think that's a great point because yeah it's like
00:51:03.800 that that idea of you can get the benefits of the past without having to relive the entire past you
00:51:12.380 can just you know your memory is such a powerful thing or our memories are such a powerful thing
00:51:17.880 that that yeah we can just think back to those times and you know that's that's what nostalgia
00:51:23.460 is, is it's still the thought. And there are things that can induce it in us. There was one
00:51:28.680 study I read about where people were shown pictures of the school supplies that were very
00:51:32.820 popular when they were kids to induce nostalgia. So I think there are all sorts of things that
00:51:37.780 can induce nostalgia, but our own brains are the ones that, you know, that's what started it. And
00:51:43.000 we hold those memories and we can kind of think back and just kind of have that moment and still
00:51:47.360 recognize, you know, that not everything was great about it. Nostalgia is a really personal
00:51:52.980 thing that the danger happens when you try to make it something that has to apply to everyone
00:51:58.760 maybe a lot of people in the 70s thought hot rods were cool when they're watching you know
00:52:02.760 american graffiti they're not all gonna agree on like the eisenhower administration's policies or
00:52:08.260 something like that and so it's like keep your reverie reverence for the car or something like
00:52:12.920 that or you know enjoy it it's yours it's your memory it's your it's part of your life you don't
00:52:19.320 have to, you know, force it on someone else or force the world to to rebuild itself for it because
00:52:24.320 you just have it in your head. I think that's a great place for us to end. So, Gabe, if people
00:52:29.660 want to find you on the Internet, where can they find you? Yeah, they can go to Gabe Bullard dot com
00:52:34.820 and links to the newsletter, the freelance writing I do. Everything is there.
00:52:40.420 Awesome. Thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure. Thank you. It's been great.
00:52:44.080 thanks for listening to the culture study podcast be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
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