Culture Study Podcast - How Romance Novels Center Marginalized Joy

00:00:00.000 When we're talking about the romance genre, where romance is the central component, where it is about a happily ever after, happily for now, it's important to also remember that like, we're talking in a lot of ways about marginalized positions.

00:00:20.260 So way back in the heyday, when romance really began to be a big part of traditional publishing, there was a slogan, we'll call it a slogan, that was often shared about romance.

00:00:36.560 and that is it is for women by women. And women at that particular moment were viewed as like a

00:00:44.220 very specific marginalized perspective. Because women to this day in a lot of spaces experience

00:00:52.280 systemic oppression through work, through social class, whatever. It centers this marginalized

00:01:01.240 joy, it centers their happiness, it centers their experiences. And that's kind of where

00:01:09.500 this for women by women began. But we are in the process of going through a social justice

00:01:18.320 revolution. Now, we've seen feminism change, we've seen the way that our rhetoric around race has

00:01:27.760 changed. And romance continuing to center marginalized perspectives is also changing

00:01:36.340 with that. And so it's not so much as a chicken before the egg, like does art imitate life,

00:01:43.540 life imitate art. It's more of a like romance is having a conversation

00:01:47.480 with what's happening right now in our world.

00:01:50.720 this is the culture study podcast and i'm ann helen peterson and i am nisha sharma a young

00:02:01.920 adult and contemporary romance writer so for this episode we are talking about trends that

00:02:07.720 we're seeing in romance novels within the reading and writing community and one of those trends

00:02:12.440 is just like more right there's just more romance and there's a lot more willingness for people to

00:02:20.100 talk more about it and talk more about reading romance. So even though romance as a genre is

00:02:25.620 not new by any means, it definitely seems to be having a moment, a visibility moment.

00:02:31.800 So Nisha, what do you see as the reason behind this current boom?

00:02:34.840 That is a great question. And I think it's not like one specific thing. There is, of course,

00:02:43.280 awareness through TikTok, um, that has made a few titles very popular and then has kind of like

00:02:51.700 expanded people's horizons when it comes to the romance genre. Um, because people just wanted

00:02:58.980 more. I think the pandemic did, um, quite a bit of work when it comes to people coming back to

00:03:07.440 reading in a specific way. And I think in general, like after the pandemic, even though we're,

00:03:13.500 you know, we're still feeling the effects of it, specifically in communities that have

00:03:19.560 disabilities and, you know, are still like, isolating and quarantining, but people are

00:03:25.300 looking for community again, and books are providing that for them. You know, kind of

00:03:30.900 alongside that, I think that different fascination with different types of reading, like part of it

00:03:37.320 the pandemic, because of the stress, because of all sorts of anxiety and doom scrolling and all

00:03:43.940 sorts of things that made it difficult to read in a way that you might have read before. Like I was

00:03:50.200 included in this bucket of people who felt like I couldn't read for many months. And then I think

00:03:56.860 for a lot of people, romance provided a way back in. It was like, I'm reading again, and it feels

00:04:03.120 good and it feels transportative, which feels good for other reasons. But I do think that it

00:04:07.620 was kind of a hook that was very effective for a lot of people. Absolutely. And I mean,

00:04:13.520 I don't exactly know how that feels just because I've been a romance reader, like a dedicated

00:04:18.960 romance reader since like the summer after seventh grade. So when people were coming to me that like

00:04:25.620 I had never like thought would be interested in a romance, like in my in like my real life.

00:04:33.120 And they were like, do you have more romance titles? I was, I was genuinely surprised,

00:04:38.360 but also really elated at the same time.

00:04:40.980 Totally. It's such an interesting point in conversation right now. And I think,

00:04:45.000 you know, in another episode where we're focusing on romance and talking with someone who studies

00:04:49.220 like the romance community, she was talking about how so much of it has to do with the expansion of

00:04:55.220 self-publishing and how that has broken down and expanded both audiences and authors and all of

00:05:03.060 these interesting ways. But okay, we got to get to the listener questions because we've got so many.

00:05:09.160 So we're doing multiple episodes on romance. Another one that we're really excited about is

00:05:14.480 we're going to have a bookseller of a romance specific bookstore on to talk about like the

00:05:20.480 business of selling romance, which I'm so excited about.

00:05:23.560 Which is amazing. I'm also excited about that.

00:05:26.240 And I love too that there's like many options. Like we have reached out to some people and we're

00:05:32.840 like, oh, if they say no, we have so many other options. It's incredible. And that was not the

00:05:37.840 case even, you know, 10 years ago. But for now, we're going to talk with you about some bigger

00:05:44.000 philosophical, big picture questions. We have some really fun questions about specific tropes

00:05:50.200 that I cannot wait to hear your thoughts on. And also for paid subscribers, we have a whole

00:05:55.080 segment on recommendations, all that sort of thing. So if you already know you need that in

00:05:59.920 your life you can head to culturestudypod.substack.com to sign up but let's start with a big

00:06:05.240 picture question from Nina. Why do so many people with otherwise feminist values still hold such

00:06:11.760 negative assumptions about romance novels? There's this classic idea that they're nothing but sex

00:06:16.860 and therefore that makes them somehow not serious reading but I'm more interested in how these

00:06:21.980 novels are seen as representing readers expectations of their real love lives. Of course there's the

00:06:28.140 internalized misogyny. But it feels like more than that. I've never thought that someone that

00:06:33.480 loves fantasy is interested in actually fighting dragons, or someone that loves detective novels

00:06:39.180 is ready to start hunting down serial killers. But with romance, it's often assumed that adult

00:06:44.480 women think a real-life human man will be a Prince Charming. But I think we all know the world's not

00:06:50.620 that perfect, and I have about as much a chance at meeting that dragon tomorrow as I do one of

00:06:56.600 these book men. If anything, it seems that straight women typically don't set very high

00:07:01.700 expectations of the men they date. Yet I've seen a lot of straight men scared that they can't live

00:07:07.240 up to those expectations when the expectation doesn't even exist. It's all escapism, so why

00:07:14.180 isn't it seen that way? This is such a naughty question. Naughty as in K-N-O-T-T-Y. She starts

00:07:22.340 by talking about people who are otherwise feminists have these negative assumptions which

00:07:27.060 is a question in and of itself but then she talks about how like this is just fantasy if it's fantasy

00:07:32.580 and not real life then like why are people scared of them but i i mean i think those two are very

00:07:38.760 intertwined right if people are scared of fantasy and people have cultural hierarchies to do with

00:07:46.200 all of those genres that she listed right fantasy detective romance any sort of fantastical space

00:07:54.300 and i think even though superhero stuff has been legitimated in some ways through like

00:08:00.140 mainstream culture like the mainstreaming of nerd culture in part because it's masculinized

00:08:05.280 i where where does this question take you okay so i feel like we have to take this in parts

00:08:13.300 Yes. The first question is like, why do so many people with otherwise like feminist values hold these like assumptions about romance novels? And we should define feminism. Like feminism is like, at the broadest of definitions. Again, remember, I'm an average academic. And if you can get a grad degree in this, like this is just an invitation to explore more.

00:08:36.420 Yeah, no. Okay. Yeah. So our broad understanding of feminism is not that women should like whatever

00:08:42.680 they like. That's not feminism. No. Feminism is like a sociopolitical movement. It's an ideology

00:08:51.500 and it's based on the premise of equality. And there are waves of feminism. There are different

00:08:58.520 types of feminists and different types of feminism and not all feminism is created equal. That is

00:09:04.600 very important to know i think my pat answer to kind of address this feminists having negative

00:09:11.360 assumptions is that like it can boil down to education um yes like yes this demographic of

00:09:18.300 feminists who are anti-romance and i'm using quotes for that are probably not like romance

00:09:23.900 readers who read widely within the romance genre they may see like hit pieces that are out about

00:09:29.880 the genre that capitalize off of stereotypes. And they're building assumptions based on what

00:09:35.480 society has made as well, like assumptions that society has as well. But it's not coming from

00:09:40.120 this place of knowledge. But it's important to like dive a little bit deeper because I don't

00:09:44.820 want to be dismissive and say that, oh, they just don't know. Yeah, no, I think oftentimes it's this

00:09:50.160 interesting place where people who have done some of the work in dismantling crappy hierarchies in

00:09:57.860 their lives, like, we're always doing more work. So like, there's stuff that I have internalized

00:10:03.460 from other adult women in my life saying things about romance novels. Yeah. When I was a kid,

00:10:10.460 right? Like, where I saw them was Harlequin Romance at the grocery store. Or my mom being like,

00:10:17.200 don't read that Daniel Steele, that's trash, right? So those things, even if you have a feminist

00:10:23.280 praxis like you can still collide with those internalized hierarchies so yeah and and so

00:10:31.020 Maya Rodale I think is like a really good name to kind of mention right now and like she's an

00:10:36.840 author she's a social commentator and she talks a little bit about this um no actually she talks

00:10:43.020 a lot about this um in her book uh I think it's called Dangerous Books for Girls and she traces

00:10:50.360 the rhetoric around romance in this book. And she basically theorizes or, you know, she talks about

00:10:57.760 how like, when women began to really read as a form of pleasure, and it became more accessible,

00:11:03.860 like books became more accessible to women, books that were being published specifically to kind of

00:11:09.600 attract women would center their happiness. And to be completely honest, like, men were scared.

00:11:17.900 they were like they were concerned that women were reading they were getting ideas right and

00:11:24.940 these ideas were challenging like power and authority over women um and these books like

00:11:32.280 they talked about the right to be happy the right to say no the right to have opinions

00:11:36.580 and readers can kind of like ask themselves like why is the right to control what happens to me

00:11:42.200 like something that's fictional when like when in actuality i feel like it should happen to me

00:11:47.500 In an effort to like suppress these beliefs, men who controlled the narrative, like they controlled like the newspapers, they controlled the review sites, they controlled everything, right? Like I'm saying sites like websites existed back then, but like they controlled like the circulation.

00:12:04.060 And they positioned these books as silly, anti-religious, harmful, against like family values. And because of that, because that language that originated in like a patriarchal structure, that is something that we inherited. And, and I don't know if you remember the canon wars. Do you remember the canon wars?

00:12:29.320 Yes. So like, in the 80s, this conversation came up again. And like, specifically, this was about academia, right? So it was, do we teach diverse stories in schools? Or do we continue to teach straight white men in schools? And this particular lecture is so it like imprinted on me. It was the Toni Morrison lecture.

00:12:53.060 And Toni Morrison, she wrote this keynote. And in the keynote, she says, canon building is empire building. Canon defense is empire defense. And she's basically talking about how like people who control the narrative have, you know, the right to basically talk about like, who gets to have these lived experiences.

00:13:17.520 That's kind of what had happened originally when like, you know, this conversation around romance began and how it is still existing today.

00:13:25.400 But now it's not just like white women, which is originally what it was about specifically, because those are the ones who had access to a lot of these romance novels.

00:13:33.640 But it is about marginalized groups through an intersectional lens.

00:13:37.980 Like we're seeing like black and brown stories.

00:13:39.940 We're seeing queer stories.

00:13:41.320 We're seeing disabled stories.

00:13:42.720 And who gets to experience joy?

00:13:45.320 who gets to experience radical joy the only thing I would add to that excellent answer

00:13:50.320 is that I think oftentimes people who dismiss any piece of culture as like and this gets to the

00:13:59.340 second part of her question where she's saying like why can't people understand that like this

00:14:03.380 is not a literal that people don't literally think that a duke is coming are maybe not thinking about

00:14:09.980 all of the different ways that they negotiate pleasure and knowledge and their experience

00:14:16.060 of watching a movie experiencing the world like the reading process is always a negotiation it's

00:14:22.000 always complex and there's you know I first encountered really fascinating discussion of

00:14:27.240 this when it came to gossip magazines and like studying women who read fan magazines and and

00:14:32.880 gossip texts and like there's an assumption that all of them are like oh yes of course that is

00:14:38.960 happening to Elizabeth Taylor instead of reading, oh, this is so funny how they're coming up with

00:14:45.040 this story to try to convince me that this is happening with Elizabeth Taylor. And as I think

00:14:51.540 we're probably going to talk about in every single episode of this podcast, Janice Radway's very

00:14:56.460 famous canonical work, canonical, but important work on reading the romance and studying romance

00:15:05.160 writers really found how many women read these romances oppositionally right like yeah it's true

00:15:13.720 they were like no those people don't end up happily ever after or took different pleasures

00:15:19.660 than what one might assume in them so i think that that is is also part of what's going on here

00:15:24.440 no i i definitely agree i mean to complicate this a little bit more while the canon wars were

00:15:30.940 happening while like second wave feminism was in its heyday um we were also looking at like a shift

00:15:40.000 in romance publishing it is a fact like there's statistics out there everything um lee and low

00:15:46.860 books does like a diversity baseline survey of like publishing as a whole and um it's a fact

00:15:53.260 that like overwhelming majority of the people who work in publishing are cisgendered white

00:16:00.340 yes men a lot of men in it in the yes yes so so when like romance was like really beginning to

00:16:08.940 pick up in commercial traditional published spaces um like in the 70s in the 80s like when

00:16:16.700 the canon wars really began we were also seeing that like men expected romance novelists to adhere

00:16:25.180 to like family values in a lot of their stories right right it was like censorship of the code

00:16:30.640 like of movies that like you have to like tack on a happy ending or that like they're having sex

00:16:35.780 within marriage right yeah yeah yeah yeah and like also like women could not pursue pleasure

00:16:41.320 outside of a union of some kind unless it was taken from them in some way and then they could

00:16:49.000 like experience this desire I have to say like the acrobats that romance writers did back then

00:16:55.080 in order to like really center the story of like a protagonist who identifies as a woman,

00:17:01.360 like their perspective was incredible because like, okay, like if these are publishing's rules,

00:17:06.580 here's how we're going to push the boundaries. But like on its surface, like if you're not

00:17:11.260 looking at it and like thinking about these stories analytically and like how this is playing

00:17:15.440 in a larger conversation with like society's like shifts and publishing, then like you're

00:17:20.520 going to see it for its face value. And you're going to believe that it kind of feeds into this

00:17:25.660 anti-feminist rhetoric. Right, right. Like it's a negotiation of that existing system. That's

00:17:30.600 really an accomplishment in hindsight. Yeah. Okay, next question, which is along these lines,

00:17:37.340 too, so we can continue this. It's about the interplay of fiction and reality. Let's hear

00:17:41.680 from Katie. I'm somewhat new into romance, both modern and hitting the originals of the Jane

00:17:47.100 Austin Regency era. One thing I notice when I read modern romances is that the benefit of benefit

00:17:52.920 versus harm to my life is a bit of a concern. I read them so quickly and want to find out what

00:17:58.180 happened so much that I stay up way past my bedtime. I also start to wonder if my own

00:18:03.040 relationship is good enough. Am I alone? How do we think about romance novels and how the intense

00:18:08.800 escapism interacts and impacts our real lives? Oh, there's so much to talk about here because

00:18:15.120 I think that like women feel bad about anything that takes them away from productivity culture

00:18:19.800 or like parenting culture, you know, like, and I don't know anything about Katie's life.

00:18:24.120 And I don't know if that's exactly what we're getting at here.

00:18:26.740 But I think this is a very common feeling.

00:18:30.020 Have you heard this expressed?

00:18:31.560 Yeah, I agree.

00:18:33.020 And I think that like, I know this, this sounds like also another, you know, very general

00:18:39.780 answer.

00:18:40.140 But like, I think what patriarchy is telling you to do is to blame the content and not

00:18:44.400 to like reflect. So instead of thinking like, you know, romance novels are bad for me. So I need to

00:18:50.980 cut out romance novels. Instead thinking like, what about it is a reflection of my life? Like,

00:18:57.360 why am I so engaged with this content? And like, maybe that is like calling into question some of

00:19:03.940 the things that I'm currently doing, or some of the things that are in my relationship that I

00:19:08.820 really just want to talk about, like that I really want to examine. Like, it's not like,

00:19:13.700 oh you need to get rid of your boyfriend because you read about a duke it's like okay what about

00:19:19.480 this relationship with this duke that resonated with me like is it communication is it trust is

00:19:25.740 it the feeling of physical and emotional intimacy like those elements are what really makes a

00:19:31.860 relationship and a romance and that is what i would urge katie to look at yeah and i think too

00:19:39.980 like part of what makes romance enthralling is that feeling of delayed pleasure right of wanting

00:19:46.440 something and and not yet getting it and if you're already in a relationship it's hard to recover

00:19:52.400 that feeling I call it like that teenage feeling that's how I think about it and um that extends

00:19:59.380 into all parts of our lives that are not like associated with being a teenager but maybe you

00:20:06.100 want to get it there you know what I mean like you if you if you can't get it in your real life

00:20:10.840 that that doesn't mean that that relationship is broken it means that you're seeking out another

00:20:15.440 source that is really a lovely place to be so long as you're like I think as long as you're

00:20:21.600 like understanding what it is and what it does for you yeah I 100% agree um Melody do you have

00:20:28.580 anything to add here do you have this problem I just like Nisha was sort of saying I don't think

00:20:34.980 it's a bad thing if something is making you question your relationship I think we should

00:20:39.460 always be questioning our relationships and whether or not we're happy in them so yeah if

00:20:44.540 you're reading something and you're like this is making me feel wistful or there's a longing here

00:20:50.120 that's not being satisfied maybe just poke at that a little bit just poke it and I also see

00:20:56.100 nothing wrong with staying up late to read books so I am not the person to comment on that

00:21:00.640 who needs work culture like i'll just be tired take a nap i mean like this is also like as a

00:21:08.700 sidebar like a conversation about healthy boundaries right true true right like anything

00:21:15.580 that you get really into in the beginning you have to figure out how to make it part of your

00:21:21.160 life in a sustainable way yep okay next question i am so curious to hear the answer to this from

00:21:27.540 an insider. This question comes from Danae, and Melody's going to read it. Can we talk about the

00:21:33.060 cartoon cover controversy of romance novels, how they now look like young adult, which is constantly

00:21:39.060 fooling me into almost reading a YA book when I actually want a romance novel? Okay, so your books

00:21:45.900 have both cartoon covers and traditional photo covers. What can you tell us about the decision

00:21:51.640 process behind each of them. So I mean, I feel like you may get a lot of like context with this

00:21:58.740 when you talk to your bookseller point of contact, because a lot of cover decisions really are

00:22:05.860 rely on like the sales channels. Yes. So for example, like for a long time, we talked about

00:22:13.460 how like, you cannot have a naked chest on a book cover if you want to sell in Walmart,

00:22:17.840 like it can't show like a male nipple because walmart is like family friendly so they won't

00:22:24.440 allow like male nipples right and isn't it like famously weren't fabio's nipples like censored

00:22:31.000 for the covers they would have in like grocery stores i feel like i've heard that maybe it's

00:22:35.140 legend i mean i wouldn't i wouldn't question it like so we're looking at again like a system

00:22:41.620 that is where most of the decision making power is by straight white men. They are making

00:22:48.500 assumptions about what sells what is considered family friendly. And we are also kind of seeing

00:22:58.000 how a lot of the times they believe that if they can make a romance novel cover less spicy,

00:23:06.680 it'll attract a more conservative readership um and conservative which is really problematic

00:23:15.340 to me can often mean younger demographic um and so it's like we are we are considering like younger

00:23:23.900 and younger audiences who have more disposable income because of course their parents want them

00:23:28.740 to read and like these covers can potentially attract a younger audience now i want to kind

00:23:34.940 of like preface this by saying like this is a very dangerous road to go down because we're

00:23:39.260 experiencing like massive book banning that's happening right now and massive censorship that's

00:23:44.600 happening right now so this is not like a like a censorship call this is like capitalism taking

00:23:51.520 advantage of a particular system in order to sell more books like that is where i think we need to

00:23:57.100 like focus our attention not like this is not a call to like limit access to books to kids because

00:24:03.120 i don't believe in that um i have three graduate degrees and i started reading romance novels in

00:24:07.900 the seventh grade so like if i did not have access to those books like i would not be

00:24:11.600 where i am today like well and the way that i think about it is like kids are gonna find these

00:24:17.380 texts like they're gonna read and access depictions of sexual activity in some capacity

00:24:23.760 in some way unless they are completely cloistered from the rest of the world and so i would rather

00:24:29.080 have that perspective coming in the form of these novels than where most of it that is publicly

00:24:36.540 available right like i i much rather would have thought that so my first like understanding of

00:24:42.400 what sex look like was like the sex scene in top gun okay like it would have been better i think

00:24:49.280 or like it's top gun and then like you know incest and flowers for algernon like you don't

00:24:55.200 You know, like there can be like a lot of freaky sex in the Lois Duncan books, right?

00:25:01.760 Or like, oh, yeah, I remember those.

00:25:03.920 I remember Lois Duncan books that that's like a throwback.

00:25:09.060 Like, I my first like, I feel like, you know, regardless of what can be considered like a really thoughtful way to introduce younger audiences to sex like there.

00:25:21.020 this is like again complicated because not all romances are created equal not all romances

00:25:26.260 like do the same thing and not all romances may be appropriate right like you're talking about like

00:25:31.900 frontal lobe is underdeveloped right so like that is also a piece of it but again like

00:25:37.120 i i want to like focus on the capitalism piece of it and how like they do not care they do not care

00:25:43.980 They're expecting parents to be involved in like, the screening process. And like, they want to attract as many individuals as possible. So that's part of it. But I will kind of add like this, this additional element to it, because I personally have cartoon covers.

00:26:01.700 cartoon covers have given me the ability to access a wider skin tone yeah and wider representation

00:26:13.600 ability yeah for my books there are not enough stock photos and images that exist out there

00:26:21.180 and there's not enough budget in a lot of marketing departments to do an original photo

00:26:26.140 shoot for all of these books to have people on the cover so like not only is and by the way like

00:26:32.880 one I will also add that like my publisher has made it very clear and has shared it like widely

00:26:37.760 in town halls um I'm with like Harper Collins I've been with Penguin Random House I've been

00:26:43.320 with Skyscape like all of these publishers they kind of speak to the same thing that

00:26:46.360 cartoon covers sell more and like for me I have access to South Asian artists who can

00:26:54.580 authentically depict individuals who look like South Asian characters that are in my book. And

00:27:02.740 they understand when I say things like Jumka, they understand things when I say like Lenga,

00:27:07.260 like they know they picture it right away. And I feel like I'm working within my community to be

00:27:12.560 able to get an authentic depiction on the cover of my book. I also feel like the thing about

00:27:18.280 cartoon covers is they make the world more imaginable does that make sense like more it's

00:27:25.160 more um amenable to other people's imagination because when you're imagining what's happening

00:27:31.100 in the book in the plot you're not imagining a cartoon like that's not how it's playing out

00:27:37.100 right like you're imagining a real person but that person gets to take on the characteristics

00:27:41.000 that you ascribe to them in your mind instead of i i always like reading a book before the movie

00:27:46.080 comes out because I don't want to be thinking about like, oh, Bella in Twilight looks like

00:27:50.660 Kristen Stewart. Like I want to think of that image myself. I want to have ownership over and

00:27:55.820 control based on what the author says, right? But it's just more fun that way. I also want to say

00:28:01.280 that most, in my experience, most authors have some input on cover. They do. But not a lot.

00:28:10.780 yeah like we are not the final say when i have conversations with other marginalized authors

00:28:17.300 they generally have really supportive publishers who are like let me let me work with you because

00:28:22.940 you are the expert here and um i think that's where cartoon covers can really be helpful and

00:28:30.500 like almost an experience that is like a safe experience to have in a publishing industry that

00:28:37.140 is like fraught with different like microaggressions I love that framing of it and it's so much I think

00:28:44.880 more useful to think about than just sometimes I think there there's this tendency to think like

00:28:50.100 oh they're so hyper feminized or that they look like they're for younger people but having these

00:28:55.480 perspectives I think is going to be really useful okay so oh one thing from Melody I feel like this

00:29:02.340 is like a melody secret question that she put in here that she wants to ask are there any secret

00:29:08.400 tips for discerning the spice level when looking at a cover I don't think so like I think if you

00:29:14.840 look at the meta tags and if you look at the like I personally always like to hear directly from the

00:29:20.060 author like how they describe their story because the author themselves will often tell you like

00:29:25.740 spice level so if I read a book or if I read about a book like I will immediately go to their social

00:29:31.920 media and I'll be like what are they saying about their own book because that will really

00:29:36.000 generally tell me what I'm looking for. Melody do you have any hints? Do you have a way that

00:29:40.900 you interpret it? No that's why I was genuinely asking. Because what if there was like oh if

00:29:47.400 there's like ears on the dog then it's like oh. I mean like again this is like just because it's

00:29:55.040 supportive of like my experiences as a marginalized author does not mean like all cartoon covers are

00:29:59.880 created equal. And like, they're great. Like, there are some cartoon covers that are very

00:30:04.140 misleading. And again, you know, it's, it's also like capitalizing off of like the ability to kind

00:30:09.420 of like cast a wider net to people by almost misrepresenting in a way. But yeah, but this is

00:30:15.640 a very nuanced question. And it's oftentimes like very specific to publishing house to authors. So

00:30:22.420 so there are good things and bad things about cartoon covers and the bad thing is this inability

00:30:30.000 to distinguish between the two but the good thing is like yes there are more stock images that exist

00:30:35.820 now but like south asians are not monolithic right so like okay fine there's more south asians

00:30:42.540 out there but like are there more punjabi south asians like right what is going on right right

00:30:47.260 or like really filtered through like the shitty um stock image whiteness lens which is oftentimes

00:30:53.820 like oh yeah exotic right like in various ways like if no is it like sometimes i just want people

00:31:00.460 to browse what is available on getty on various stock image sites to understand just how pervasive

00:31:07.480 these tropes remain okay wait can i just type in on one more thing uh yes please i think what you

00:31:13.860 said about casting a wider net to readers is absolutely spot on because that is what happened

00:31:18.880 to me and I think there's still a lot of stigma around reading the more traditional like photo

00:31:24.840 covers where somebody is like wearing a dress and clutching somebody else and my first romance

00:31:30.120 novel ever was The Proposal by Jasmine Guillory because it had a cartoon cover with a baseball

00:31:34.740 on the front and then when I got to the sexies I was like oh my gosh like you can do this

00:31:40.300 like oh so and then melody was like you guys it's like rom-coms but in books like did you know

00:31:48.620 that romance novels can be funny yeah but then like do you see how we're deconstructing patriarchy

00:31:56.300 here like this exactly but so now like i needed i needed that like safe entry with the cartoon

00:32:02.220 cover where nobody could know the contents of what i was reading whereas like now i'll read

00:32:07.280 whatever and like sarah mcclain is one of my favorite authors and she has those more traditional

00:32:11.480 like um mass market paperback covers and if i post them on instagram people are like oh my god

00:32:17.540 like what are you reading and you're like good shit yeah good shit because now i am like educated

00:32:25.020 enough by the cartoon covers to appreciate the stories inside the more traditional covers yeah

00:32:30.500 Okay, next question is from someone who is new to the genre and has a lot of questions for you.

00:32:38.020 Let's hear from Kate.

00:32:39.420 I have always been a voracious reader, but until recently I was a real snob about the romance genre.

00:32:45.200 I read my first romance last year and now I'm all in, but I have so many questions.

00:32:50.620 What's with all the sickbed tropes?

00:32:52.700 Why is it inevitable that in a male-female romance, the male main character will go down on the female main character?

00:32:59.080 Relatedly, are romance novels effectively porn for women?

00:33:02.220 Like, actually hot porn with narrative and emotions?

00:33:05.440 And how have there not been more TV adaptations of romance series?

00:33:09.060 Surely there's a huge inbuilt audience.

00:33:11.320 Is it because it's difficult to film the sex?

00:33:13.940 So many questions.

00:33:15.340 I just love this image in my head of Kate, like, with a pen and paper beside her as she's reading.

00:33:20.820 She's like, no, why are there so many sick bed tropes?

00:33:24.360 Like, just all of these questions.

00:33:27.040 And maybe that's just the former PhD in me and what I would do.

00:33:31.440 No, I and I totally I can visualize that too. And I think that like, because she's just looking for

00:33:37.760 answers as a new reader, I'm happy to answer all these questions. Like this is like, good for you

00:33:43.020 for reading. I hope you continue to read romances. If we can zoom out and talk about tropes a little

00:33:49.080 bit, like what? So let's start with just the sick bed. What is what's going on there?

00:33:54.180 so a trope is like um it's hard to describe it's a marketing tool that's what a trope is

00:34:01.640 a trope is a marketing tool and it is a common moment that exists across different books within

00:34:08.860 the genre and it is a way to kind of identify not only like plot but theme within a book and so a

00:34:17.620 sick bed trope is when you have one of the protagonists who is ill and the other protagonist

00:34:23.700 is taking care of them. And oftentimes, it's like reluctance at first to let them see,

00:34:29.700 you know, protect us one in this vulnerable position. But it is actually if it's done well,

00:34:36.340 it is really powerful. So like, with specifically sick bed trope, you know, if we're thinking about

00:34:41.840 it carefully, we're looking at a situation where you have someone who is physically at the weakest

00:34:46.740 that they are, right? They're ill, they're defenseless, they're technically helpless.

00:34:51.420 and to be helpless and then also to experience like trust and care from someone is a really

00:34:58.780 powerful intimate and social dynamic and I think it's important because romance isn't just about

00:35:04.960 physical experiences which I think like people kind of boil it down to just that it's also about

00:35:11.020 emotional intimacy and what when it's done really well a sick bad scene is a perfect example of like

00:35:17.620 really pure emotional intimacy and it's not about like oh my man doesn't do this anything for me so

00:35:24.880 i'm fantasizing about a man who does like that you know which i feel like some people may assume

00:35:29.940 that that's what it is like if you're thinking in very like patriarchal terms but like this is

00:35:35.300 about understanding trust as a key component to relationships and how what and when you do for

00:35:42.420 others like it is it is like an important transition in a relationship and in the story

00:35:49.460 okay what how do we talk about oral sex for women and how it occurs that is also something i'm happy

00:35:56.780 to like address and i think like you know um because this question i feel like was asked in

00:36:01.720 good faith like yes it's important to talk about these things and like to kind of de-stigmatize

00:36:07.620 conversations around sex. And there are a ton of romances out there, by the way, that are called

00:36:13.520 closed door romances and don't have explicit sex on the page. So if reading about oral is something

00:36:19.060 that like is not for you, like there's no harm in in like saying this is not for me, I'd rather

00:36:25.860 prefer closed door sex, like that's fine. If your like relationship with intimacy in the media you

00:36:31.660 consume is about like more about like personal fantasy than to read like the fantasy on the page

00:36:38.740 that is totally fine um but like thinking about oral sex it is a giving act right so having sex

00:36:47.780 with a person who who has a vagina and it is de-centering the phallus in sexual intimacy and

00:36:55.620 this is also about trust and putting an individual's pleasure first. And it's a sign

00:37:03.300 that the character who is giving oral sex wants the person with a vagina to have happiness and

00:37:11.320 a sexual experience that is about them, that is purely about their pleasure. And this is like

00:37:16.980 another example of how romance centers the marginalized in a way that is generally, you

00:37:24.720 know we we do not see in like a lot of other forms of fiction that often includes like the

00:37:33.380 patriarchy as like a central figure yeah and i think a lot of readers are socialized to either be

00:37:39.460 um ashamed of being on the receiving end of that sort of pleasure yeah or that someone who gives

00:37:49.400 that sort of pleasure if they're a male like that it's emasculating in some way and at least in the

00:37:55.380 the depictions that I've read it is depicted as like the most masculine thing that you can do

00:38:01.320 yeah absolutely like is to like to really to have the confidence and skill to do that

00:38:08.360 and I think that that is part of the the trope right is like offering a different experience

00:38:15.360 or a different understanding than what people may have heard or understood in their their own lives

00:38:22.700 yeah absolutely uh what about this question about porn this i this is always fascinating to me like

00:38:30.280 how people think about it and they're like oh this is just the female version of porn oh my gosh

00:38:36.180 i yes i have no problems with this i so this is like baked into like these assumptions about

00:38:42.380 romance right so it it's reductive it's reductive to think of an entire genre that centers like

00:38:47.640 marginalized experiences to porn um it also it also relies on the assumption that porn is bad

00:38:54.200 and it requires people to defend romance against porn um and it needs to be defended against right

00:39:01.400 which i think is also like really problematic like the idea of also like things like a porn

00:39:06.560 addiction doesn't exist like it's actually does not exist it's not in like the dsm-5 it's it does

00:39:12.140 not a thing. I think it's important to remember that this belief system is coming from like a

00:39:18.920 really Eurocentric religious ideology that sex is bad, sex is private, like individuals who

00:39:24.480 identify as women enjoying sex, when women should really be reduced to a vessel for reproduction.

00:39:30.960 It's all connected thinking, like all of this is connected in conversation. Porn is about

00:39:38.020 about sex and pleasure. And therefore, we should say no to it, because it's not about like being

00:39:44.820 a reproductive vessel. Like, so that is kind of like part of the conversation that is these

00:39:49.540 assumptions that are kind of being made silently. On a whole other level, it is really dismissive

00:39:55.700 of how romance can also be a space for marginalized communities to really share

00:39:59.760 these nuanced depictions of joy and happiness, right? So it's like, to say like romance is

00:40:06.360 just about a physical intimacy, it completely dismisses marginalized experiences of joy.

00:40:14.400 That is an offense to me personally as a South Asian woman who is trying so hard to like get

00:40:19.880 experiences out there of like South Asians having joy and happiness in the world. And so much of

00:40:25.440 the romance that I personally consume, there's these conversations about representation, about

00:40:29.180 colonialism, about grief, generational trauma. A lot of these romances also celebrate black and

00:40:35.480 brown bodies wrestling with shame wrestling with identity wrestling with the diaspora it's about

00:40:40.900 how black and brown bodies in the past have been commodified and used as trauma porn um and it's

00:40:48.260 breaking the trauma cycle like these are this is what romance can do and all of this is like

00:40:53.500 shoved away if you just reduce it to porn and it also questions like the way that queer communities

00:41:02.100 look at intimacy in a lot of ways like it is completely dismissive of like ace individuals

00:41:08.360 um and then if we look at the broader scope of what romance can do as a community like we see

00:41:15.180 that romance has you know romance has given me a community um it has given me so many people that

00:41:20.480 can i connect connect with it is like a language it's a method of communication that i can like

00:41:27.100 share something that is so deeply personal for me. And I can share that deeply personal

00:41:34.660 passion with someone else. So like, it's a method of building community too. So

00:41:39.580 no, it is not just born for women. And also so many romance novels or that are grouped under

00:41:46.200 the larger umbrella of romance, romance fantasy, all these things are also representations of

00:41:52.300 community right like one of the one a very popular trope is found family in some capacity and that

00:41:59.420 yeah that's the one last the one thing that you didn't mention that I think is so huge for a lot

00:42:03.940 of people is the in the experience of reading right maybe you read because you love reading

00:42:10.100 you know like and you love that absorption that we were talking about earlier and that is a feeling

00:42:15.280 maybe one of the only times when you feel like you have some distance from your obligations

00:42:19.960 from your identity from the experience of the real world so all of those things are wrapped

00:42:25.700 up in it as well melody what do you think did we did we cover all of the components of that

00:42:30.880 oh we didn't cut we didn't talk about why they're not adapted to series i mean we can we can just

00:42:35.280 say patriarchy just give shonda rhymes whatever she wants and yeah i mean i will say like talking

00:42:45.700 about how Shonda has really done like a lot of work with Bridgerton and I really respect it but

00:42:50.080 like I think it's also really important that like we are still coding white narratives with black

00:42:55.440 and brown bodies we are not like celebrating black and brown stories in that space so I think

00:43:00.460 it's really important to think of how like tv adaptations of romance series like are built on

00:43:05.400 assumptions by executives who potentially do not see the value of a lot of these stories and how

00:43:11.740 like centering joy and happiness and celebrating like sex is really important and i don't think

00:43:17.980 it's just about the sex because like if anyone has seen game of thrones like i don't think that's an

00:43:22.100 issue yeah no i don't think it's just about the sex in any capacity and i'm i'm fascinated that

00:43:30.260 the like the adaptation of uh agatar was recently dropped and there's like such a massive appetite

00:43:38.320 for that but i think it's also just would be very difficult to adapt but most romances don't need

00:43:45.680 wings yeah i mean i like i i honestly don't have much to say about it like i think it's really

00:43:52.800 fascinating with like someone has the ability to tell a story that resonates with so many people

00:43:57.260 like i i think like as a as a subject to study i think it's really incredible i know personally

00:44:04.020 like as a person who's been connecting with like film people back and forth like some of the

00:44:09.540 feedback I get are things like but how is this going to connect to a wider audience how is this

00:44:15.060 going to like oh I already have my brown story like that is still something that I literally

00:44:22.120 like an executive looked me in the eyes like directly in the in my two eyes looked at me and

00:44:27.880 said, we actually already have a story that is by someone who's that Asian. So that happens to

00:44:34.380 this day that I think that happened at the end of 2022, early 2023. And so, you know, that like,

00:44:40.520 I think it's really just about dismantling some of these systems that exist to suppress some of

00:44:46.900 these narratives. Yeah, we have one more trope question. Actually, we have a lot more, but we

00:44:51.520 have one more specific trope question, and this one comes from Percy. I'm a transmasculine library

00:44:58.560 worker and trying not to be as chronically online as I once was, but BookTok continues to find me

00:45:05.160 at work, and I am curious about the whirlwind marketability of heterosexual forbidden romance.

00:45:13.340 The trope makes me roll my eyes, but it's evidently booming, so what makes the idea of a

00:45:19.360 physical therapist and a ballerina being unable to couple so titillating i mean okay so first

00:45:27.320 can you define what this is what what forbidden romance is forbidden romance is often either

00:45:34.800 physical social class-based power dynamics it is about power it is about like you are not to be

00:45:46.780 with this one person because the society or, you know, sometimes biology, like whatever it may be,

00:45:57.060 does not permit it. And forbidden romance is really interesting. And this is something that

00:46:02.420 I'm very fascinated about personally and in my own research. Forbidden romance allows individuals

00:46:08.560 to explore or to engage with content that talks about intimacy and kink in a safe way.

00:46:15.780 so that to me is why I think forbidden romance is really a like important subgenre because it's

00:46:26.140 an exploration of desire as well we as a society are really built under like this eurocentric

00:46:32.220 religious ideology and desires often considered forbidden which is really hilarious to me because

00:46:36.720 my mentor is a early modernist and like in early modern society like even in early modern literature

00:46:44.520 women are hypersexual like they are hypersexual they're really excited about sex all the time

00:46:49.500 and like this is a new thing right um and so the other piece of it is like you know in addition to

00:46:55.380 this exploration of desire is that oftentimes like marginalized communities are really familiar

00:46:58.920 with sexual violence like this is an unfortunate truth that exists for a lot of us and forbidden

00:47:03.680 romance allows us to like kind of skirt the edges of experience with power dynamics and play in a

00:47:10.000 safe space that doesn't feel like a personal attack right and i want to be clear that this

00:47:14.960 is something that is not like not necessarily done super well in a lot of ways because like

00:47:20.640 yeah sometimes you will get like a physical therapist and a ballerina which honestly i'm

00:47:25.080 not exactly sure what a forbidden element is there but i don't know either like 50 shades

00:47:29.140 of gray is a really good example like there are a lot of problematic elements to this forbidden

00:47:33.360 romance that kind of exists but first of all like it doesn't necessarily have to be forbidden

00:47:39.120 that's one um it's assuming that kink is like forbidden which is which is like the biggest

00:47:45.220 problem with the story but the ones that do it really well give readers this opportunity to like

00:47:51.800 have these fantastical moments of situations that allow them to experience or feel desire

00:48:00.680 in a safe space can you give an example of one that you think does this well

00:48:05.140 for real by alexis hall is not a bad one um it's well i i say it's not a bad one it's like it's a

00:48:11.280 good one it's it's actually a great one um it is an mm romance um and it includes a sex club and

00:48:18.340 it includes like kink but it is a 20 year age gap so there's like power dynamics that exist in the

00:48:23.920 space as well so i think that's like a really good example um so for real by alexis hall yeah

00:48:30.060 okay that's no that that makes total sense to me and i think like that idea of having it be a place

00:48:37.200 where you can allow your brain to go there and kind of explore how you react to different things

00:48:42.680 right but like be able to do it in a in a private scenario is also really powerful

00:48:47.740 okay it's time for our deep dive on romance tropes plus tons of recommendations and addressing

00:48:58.240 the age-old question of whether a happy ending is necessary. This part of the conversation is

00:49:04.220 just for paid subscribers, so if this sounds like it is your jam, head over to culturestudypod.substack.com

00:49:11.120 and sign up. This has been such a delight. Like, I can't tell you. This has been such a highlight

00:49:22.540 of my day, of my week. I'm so glad. I love talking about this stuff. Yeah. I just want to also give

00:49:28.060 you space to talk about your books that are coming out there's one that i am so looking forward to

00:49:32.020 that's about letters can you talk about them yeah no i'm i'm really happy to share um so i have two

00:49:39.280 traditionally published books that are coming out this year the first one is called the letters we

00:49:42.760 keep and it is about it's a new adult romance so it takes place in college yes and it's about two

00:49:47.600 teenagers from very different like life backgrounds who find love letters from a person who went

00:49:54.780 missing 50 years ago, in a locked section of their school library, and they are trying to

00:49:59.860 figure out who they are. It's a very short read. And it is like what I call a palate cleanser

00:50:06.180 romance. So it is like, it delivers exactly what the premise of the plot is, right? It talks about

00:50:13.180 class and immigration. And it also complicates this idea of two South Asians from different

00:50:20.060 perspectives falling in love in college. And then my traditionally published romance that comes out

00:50:26.760 this year is the third book in my Shakespeare adaptation series. So it's an adaptation of

00:50:32.880 Twelfth Night, that is Marriage and Musty, two people who are friends, or friends once,

00:50:38.440 because the book starts about a year after like the second book in the series. And who get drunk

00:50:44.800 on a beach and accidentally get married and the shenanigans that follow. Awesome. Cannot wait.

00:50:52.460 If people want to pre-order or like find direct links or just like follow you, where can they

00:50:57.180 find you on the internet? So I am most active on Instagram and on TikTok at Nisha Writes,

00:51:03.920 W-R-I-T-E-S. And you can always find information about me and my books on my website,

00:51:10.120 um www.nisha-sharma.com amazing thank you again this has just been wonderful thanks for having

00:51:17.840 me i'm so glad to be here yay and listeners we're working on more episodes about the romance boom

00:51:23.560 we're going to talk to the owners of a romance bookstore and an author of queer romance novels

00:51:28.800 so please send in your questions for both of those thanks for listening to the culture study podcast

00:51:34.660 be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts we have so many great episodes in the

00:51:39.240 works and i promise you do not want to miss any of them if you want to suggest a topic ask a

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00:52:30.220 the culture study podcast is produced by me ann helen peterson and melody rowell our music is by

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00:52:41.660 and the show at Culture Study Pod.

Culture Study Podcast - June 05, 2024

How Romance Novels Center Marginalized Joy

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