00:04:39.920Yeah, I think we always want to have fun all the time.
00:04:45.420We want to have fun the whole time we're awake.
00:04:48.200And so if we are doing something difficult, like running, then why not make it a bit fun?
00:04:53.800uh and through that fun we might even be able to make it more fun next time or at least um
00:04:58.620less sake which is the goal yeah yeah well or you know it's the classic um type two fun you know i
00:05:06.300do one of these relays where you run 100 miles it's you with a team of 11 other people it's
00:05:11.880called a ragnar um over the course of essentially like 36 hours and you stay up through the night
00:05:17.900and you like sleep in little snatches on the like gym floor of a high school in like the middle of
00:05:23.600know where washington and it's totally type two fun like it's ridiculous like you're kind of
00:05:29.240suffering in all of these different intersecting ways but you're also doing something really
00:05:34.600collaborative and ridiculous and it becomes fun and so that that type of fun that also kind of
00:05:40.880sucks is is type two fun there is there's a couple of different levels to that fun though because0.77
00:05:46.040there's the collaborative stuff there's the the mini community that you're in for 36 hours
00:05:50.220but then it's fun on a personal level as well you've achieved that um and achieving something
00:05:55.760on your own is good but achieving achieving something with friends with a team is a hundred
00:06:01.060times better yeah and it's not a coincidence that a lot of my kind of accidental prs are on some of
00:06:08.680these segments like even when i'm so tired but if you're just amped you're amped up and you're like
00:06:12.980I have barely slept my stomach feels super weird let's go let's like let's get it done
00:06:20.560it's four in the morning um what has your relationship with running been over the course
00:06:27.320of your life um I ran at school um so I joined the track team when I was uh a teenager let's
00:06:34.540say 14 or so um I wasn't good enough for team sports so yeah it wasn't really um an option
00:06:42.380to play on the football the soccer team or cricket I just didn't really like a a small
00:06:48.620wooden ball being thrown at me at speed um you know I was okay at hockey but um team sports just
00:06:56.960weren't quite for me in in the same way that running was so I was kind of put into the track
00:07:01.940team as a remainder as a leftover and uh but that was I found my place and um yeah didn't
00:07:09.840continue running through college because uh I did other college things of partying the whole time
00:07:16.040but then I picked out when I got back to London as an as a sprightly uh how old was I probably
00:07:22.700about 24 and uh 23 24 um because I'd moved back to London to be a music journalist and uh had
00:07:30.180carried on the partying lifestyle and something needed to change I started running when I was
00:07:36.900like 18 in like the worst shoes right like just like i don't know i had like one pair of like
00:07:44.220gym shoes that i used in actual gym class in high school yes but i was only running like a mile two
00:07:50.380miles three miles and you know i was fine my my 18 year old body was okay with that and i really
00:07:56.680didn't like i i didn't go much over like six until i got into my my late 20s and i think we'll talk
00:08:03.080about this more in the podcast but I do think there's this really interesting thing that happens
00:08:07.860as like our generation's age and they're trying to figure out like okay what do I do do I need
00:08:15.160to exercise like does this become my whole personality once I get into something do I
00:08:20.420have to make it into something that like quasi takes over my life like I feel like this is a
00:08:25.820shots fired moment totally well for both of us um uh and i think like i i've spent a lot of time
00:08:36.200trying to think about where like why do i like running if if i do believe that running does
00:08:42.960suck right if there are parts of it that like why have i stuck with it um why have i come like even
00:08:48.840when i've gotten like really into peloton or like road cycling or or hiking or whatever like i i
00:08:55.480always come back to it and so what is that and i think some of it and we'll get to this some of
00:09:00.320it is just ease it's just the easiest pull your shoes on get out of the door yeah okay so our
00:09:06.720questions today are all over the place we great why are runners so annoying can races save our
00:09:12.840society uh is there gossip on strava yes uh and then we'll answer a couple more in the triple a
00:09:19.500segment which is our advice segment about finding a running buddy and why races are so crowded
00:09:23.820so the hope is that even if you're not a runner this is kind of similar to an episode we did
00:09:29.200somewhat recently about skiing that you will still enjoy us interrogating the culture of running so
00:09:36.880let's hear first from caitlin i used to hate running but i'm slowly learning to appreciate
00:09:42.520it for its relatively low barrier to entry and to resent it more because the shin splints than
00:09:47.020the exercise itself but why are so many runners such evangelists about it arguably most people
00:09:52.700who practice a sport are evangelists about them, with weightlifters and cyclists either tied with
00:09:57.540or slightly less egregious than runners. I'm both, so the shape's coming from inside the house.
00:10:03.200But personally, I've encountered a level of smugness among runners that I haven't seen in
00:10:06.800other sports. I've heard runners say it's the best, easiest, and cheapest form of exercise,
00:10:12.620which seems to discount the fact that it can be quite hard on your body, that good,
00:10:16.060long-lasting running shoes and other equipment, like most anything else, is not cheap,
00:10:20.060and that, honestly, most people were never taught how to run properly
00:10:24.140or how to enjoy running in school gym classes.
00:10:27.620What is it about running or the community around it
00:10:29.720that invites or encourages the smug evangelism?
00:10:33.840The first thing I want to say, and this is like a total run evangelist thing,
00:10:37.900is that if you're getting shin splints, decrease your mileage and it'll be better.
00:10:43.780That's just my very quick shin splint.
00:10:46.100uh like you know i don't have a ton of pt knowledge but i do know that yeah the other
00:10:51.820thing though have you met this kind of person who is like the evangelist have i met them i'm
00:10:56.840surrounded by them i'm surrounded by them they are um i moved to la 10 years ago and uh i've met
00:11:06.400runners all over the city some of them are so serious and some of them are not serious there's
00:11:13.600there's a whole range of how people are with this some of them just go to run club some of them
00:11:19.860just run alone and occasionally allow me to run with them but they all love running and they're
00:11:25.640all evangelists in their own way and so the person caitlin's talking about i do know that person
00:11:31.180um but i think that they love it so deeply because it that kind of love usually comes from change
00:11:37.920running changed them somehow they adore it and they want to share that they want to share that
00:11:44.360they want to share what they've found from running um with you caitlin and so understand that it does
00:11:51.180come from a place of love no matter how overbearing they might be no matter how smug they might come
00:11:57.460across i do believe that they want to share it there's uh there is that other side where they
00:12:02.360might be boasting about their achievements but there's nothing you can do about those people
00:12:06.120yeah I find I don't find that many people who boast maybe it's just because I'm in my running
00:12:12.840crowd is mostly like uh-huh people in their 40s uh yeah yeah that are just like thrilled about
00:12:19.860their bodies still functioning the way that they want them to function like that's really at the
00:12:23.800heart of it um and I think that like for me at least my current evangelism about it is not about
00:12:32.660i think everyone should run because i don't think everyone should run like if it doesn't if it
00:12:36.920really doesn't feel good on your body then don't freaking do it um but if it's something that
00:12:43.120you're scared of because you don't understand yourself as like a quote runner that's the thing
00:12:48.860that i think a lot of people are like i didn't think of myself as a runner like i was the person
00:12:53.220and i always say this like i was the person hiding behind the bathroom during the mile
00:12:58.600run in school like i hated it yeah and i also am not a team sports person like not formal not
00:13:09.900casual like people who start a beach volleyball game i'm like this is the worst idea i've ever
00:13:14.800heard of like it's just i hate it and for me it's like a way to do something that0.95
00:13:20.160makes me feel really alive in my body and also marvel at my body yeah you know women0.98
00:13:26.340And statistically, their ability to run longer and run slightly faster, like it, it lasts just a little bit longer. So I'm like, here I am, like, well into middle age. And I like, I can't believe that I can do this. And that I think that's the enthusiasm. And, you know, the arguments about it being like easy and accessible, like, that, that tension is really at the heart, I think, of all hobbies, right?
00:13:52.060because there are entry points that are still very accessible you can still run in basketball
00:13:58.320shorts and a t-shirt that a cotton t-shirt that you've had for 15 years i recommend it yeah
00:14:02.980these things are all there um but then at the same time it's modeled by most people who are
00:14:10.540doing it in your social sphere as oftentimes something that you need the right gear to do
00:14:16.760and you know that goes to peer pressure a little bit um going back to the evangelist
00:14:23.800um the smug evangelist um i think they they just want to share what they love they want to share
00:14:30.200their experience that's what i want to believe anyway well and i also think sometimes this
00:14:34.180depends on the person this is not me necessarily some people really want you to start running
00:14:38.640because they want to run with you yes yes absolutely like they want to spend time with you
00:14:44.240and running with someone is a fantastic way i mean walking does the same thing but is a fantastic way
00:14:50.820to have long conversations to get kind of like into that second level past small talk yeah and
00:14:59.180so part of it i think if you can kind of reframe it as like this person wants to spend time with
00:15:04.220you i am very picky about who i run with not because like i am not because like i oh your
00:15:11.020pace is this i have to like i can only run with you i mean mostly it's the opposite that i want
00:15:15.460to always have the option of going exactly the pace that i want to go which is very slow or gosh
00:15:21.040melody's gonna yell at me which is not like i'm not trying to say that i want to go at a faster
00:15:25.580pace i'm saying that i often feel that internalized pressure of like what if i want to go at a slower
00:15:31.820pace and so there are a handful of people that i know are right around my pace and have no problem
00:15:36.800with slowing down when and if we need to.
00:15:39.760Okay, so I think we kind of answered that.
00:15:42.240And also, you know, Caitlin, you don't have to like it.
00:17:49.200Our next question is about a very specific type of person who seems to be very into running.
00:17:55.760This comes from Sarah, and Melody's going to read it.
00:17:58.460I'm curious about the Venn diagram of running, especially marathon, half marathon, and ultras,
00:18:03.720and people who have been to grad school, especially PhD school.
00:18:08.300On the one hand, I remember feeling a little bit isolated and singular as the only person
00:18:12.980in my immediate peer group in grad school who did this, and who absolutely needed to
00:18:17.340run a lot to counterbalance the intellectual work, and needing it so much that any extra
00:18:22.940money I had went to raise fees and new shoes.
00:18:25.760On the other hand, now that I'm through that, I feel like everyone I meet in academia has done a marathon, almost like it's an unspoken rite of passage, along with qualifying exams, dissertating, etc.
00:18:37.100The cultural study academic in me would point to what seems to be an obvious answer here, that there is like a shared human need to be fully embodied in a way that you are while running to counter the almost disembodied experience of writing, searching in archive, lab work, crunching data, etc.
00:18:54.480But I wonder if you all think there is something else going on here. Do these two activities just appeal to the same kind of person? Maybe someone who gravitates toward unhealthy qua healthy extremes? Is there maybe a need for physical proximity and community not unlike the blockbuster movie cinematic experience that we are missing in grad school that a race environment sparks?
00:19:16.820And how, if at all, do we connect this to the apparent rise in running culture, particularly in a moment where we've lost monocultural experiences and are increasingly disembodied and screen mediated as we interact with each other and seek community?
00:19:32.040Man, I can tell this is a person who has a PhD.
00:19:37.180You know, I, as a person with a PhD, I didn't run intensely when I was in grad school.
00:19:43.040I was actually very into hot yoga during that period in my life, and it was accessible to me because I had, like, the student pass at the hot yoga studio.
00:19:51.320This was in Austin in the very early 2010s, so, like, very much in that moment in cultural obsessions.
00:20:00.040but i went every single day and i think like especially when you are writing a dissertation
00:20:06.680or you are maybe past that into like other intense parts of your work like it is so intense that you
00:20:15.800need something structured that you go away to that forces you to turn off your active brain in some
00:20:22.080way yeah and i would say like the story in my family always was like that my dad would be in
00:20:28.020his medical residency and then he would run home from the hospital like literally like get put on
00:20:33.220his running shoes and run home as a way to to wind down so i think that's part of it but i think
00:20:39.080there's something else there i'd be interested to hear your thoughts i always frame running as
00:20:44.320not just for your body but for your mind as well and so it really it really is part of this for me
00:20:50.040as a writer i need to run to kind of clear my head make a cabin in the woods in my head because i
00:20:57.580can't afford to just go and rent a cabin in the woods every day because i'm a writer so i don't
00:21:02.540really have much disposable income whatever i'm writing about that day or that week i can
00:21:07.020kind of unmuddle the the myriad thoughts that i have in my head so that's really that's really
00:21:14.220helpful because they're both solo activities and so sitting here looking at my laptop or looking
00:21:21.060at my pad and writing things down is one part of my writing process one part of my research process
00:21:26.740but the running is kind of the bit that unlocks it all i can come back from a run and i'll have
00:21:32.960perfect clarity on what i want to write what i want to say um as part of the the process of of
00:21:40.860writing of creating whatever you want to call it i think they are so intermeshed yeah i totally
00:21:47.360agree and i personally don't take my phone with me on most of my runs because i don't even want
00:21:53.480that temptation and i also don't listen to music unless i'm going for a very long distance um
00:21:58.740which allows that sort of like processing the background that clarifying to happen
00:22:04.220the other thing i would note is that a lot of academics are addicted to productivity and so
00:22:10.660running is a task that also is framed in what we frame it to ourselves as productive right
00:22:20.280because you could go on a really long walk right or you could like knit and both of those things
00:22:26.400have that same sort of like mind clearing and clarifying function sure but it's like oh i'm
00:22:32.760also getting into shape while doing this thing that clears my mind like it's like you're multi
00:22:38.060running is a multitasking and a thing that like you can convince your brain that this is still
00:22:43.600doing what you're supposed to be doing it's not leisure it's time efficient exercise yeah you can
00:22:52.200walk and get the same benefits as a run for the same distance three four five six miles but
00:23:00.440it'll take twice as long if you walk so if you run your productivity increases because you can
00:23:06.080get back to your desk quicker but you've done you've done your mandated uh your mandated laps
00:23:11.120of the courtyard that little bit of extra work um yeah that productivity hack of going for a run
00:23:16.840it helps yeah no and i think that that like that's all absolutely true but i like the other part is
00:23:23.320that it's the the part i like least about some of running culture which is like this is my hobby
00:23:31.520that also is like a productivity hack you know like that that component but you know um the
00:23:38.820question asker points to like how much of this is also trying to kind of rest some sort of
00:23:46.500collectivism like some sort of group experience and i i think that that's really true i did not
00:23:52.580do that but like that's part of why i really liked doing hot yoga when i was in my phd is that like
00:23:59.260here i was not only with a whole group of people which most academic writing and stuff like even
00:24:05.720teaching you're with students but it's incredibly solitary in terms of like you're not doing it in
00:24:11.220community and the academic world is very cutthroat and individualistic so here's this whole group of
00:24:16.700people that you're with and also they are not academics yeah like you got to talk about other0.84
00:24:21.280shit that is not the academic world and that for me is one of the things i also love about running
00:24:27.040is that like the community is made up of people who do all sorts of different work i've worked0.92
00:24:33.340from home for most of my adult life when I was a music journalist I made sure I was going to
00:24:38.660shows going to concerts or just to socialize way more than the average person because otherwise I
00:24:46.040was in my apartment for 24 hours so yeah I could handle the eight hours for sleep let's say I got
00:24:51.440eight hours sleep I could handle the eight hours of work in my office but then the next eight hours
00:24:57.160I needed to be among people and so I went to concerts and since I stopped being music journalist
00:25:03.500when I moved to LA 10 years ago I started going to run clubs that became my connection to the
00:25:09.520outside world it was like taking a dog for a walk or taking dogs to the dog park that was me going
00:25:15.020to run club that was my dog park going to a run club for instance you can switch from talking
00:25:19.980about whatever you're studying with your peers at the university to discussing ways of raising
00:25:26.440your vo2 max and why carbon plated shoes are maybe not necessary or why everyone's wearing black you
00:25:33.160know um at night time but you can you can have different conversations so yeah i think that's
00:25:38.500that's a big part of it for me certainly can i supply an anecdote slash follow-up question oh
00:25:43.740please uh so one of my first jobs out of college raz i worked at the supreme court and i worked for
00:25:50.160justice and one of my duties was to organize the applications for clerkships that came in
00:25:55.520and so many of these applications on their resumes they included all of their races and times
00:26:03.340so like i ran the chicago marathon in like three and a half hours or whatever like on their
00:26:08.280professional resume that is so weird that's so why okay i also thought it was weird because it's
00:26:14.820like you're about to go into an incredibly intense year you're not going to be running
00:26:18.760and also who cares about this but melody i would contest that they actually probably would still
00:26:24.680be running they would just be sleeping less but also that is that is weird um especially putting
00:26:31.660the times it's just so weird maybe they put that on as a warning that i'm taking this i want this
00:26:37.780job but i will also be running so beware i'm not gonna have a load of spare time i'm gonna spend
00:26:44.060my time running or i'm gonna take all my no way because otherwise they would be like i have seen
00:26:51.120the thing on resumes where they ask like for hobbies because they want proof that you are like0.52
00:26:55.880a human being yeah and most people just bullshit because they don't have any hobbies when they're
00:26:59.960applying for a job they're like kayaking when they kayak like once on a lake three years ago
00:27:04.800so but i think this is just like a an excellence thing right like a lot of i'm good at everything
00:27:12.900yeah and so that's why you should hire me you know whether it's um hiring for a consulting firm
00:27:19.120or for a supreme court clerkship it's like i am the embodiment of excellence in some way that is
00:27:25.260like but don't do that if you're applying for a job don't do that don't put your races on there
00:27:29.800um okay next question is about the marathon i have so many things to say about this
00:27:34.940it comes from jen what's up with so many running people being absolutely belligerent about running
00:27:40.140marathons i was in a run club in 2019 training pretty hard and enjoying racing half marathons
00:27:46.080and was very upfront about not wanting to train for longer distances but I eventually quit said
00:27:51.180run club in part because my running partners would not stop pressuring me to run a marathon
00:27:55.080and it was starting to feel kind of disrespectful why are shorter distances not seen as acceptable
00:28:00.220why is just enjoying running with a group and never competing seen as less than okay where
00:28:05.680does your mind go initially for this I've never run a marathon so I'm with you Jen I'm 100% on
00:28:13.480your team um i like running 10k i've built my body up to the point where i can run a half marathon
00:28:20.940any day of the week but uh i don't want to spend four or five hours running i don't
00:28:28.120i don't it's uh i get i get annoyed when a movie is over two hours long you know like yeah yeah i'm
00:28:36.600so pleased that Nora won the Oscar but it was a little bit too long um you know so and maybe this
00:28:44.780leans into the productivity thing that you're talking about I want to get lots and lots of
00:28:48.300things done but I want to enjoy them all in a moderate amount when I was growing up running a
00:28:54.500marathon was a bucket list event it was kind of an extreme thing to do yes and so yeah I I know
00:29:01.780these people that jen is talking about and uh i find them equally belligerent i don't think a
00:29:06.480marathon i don't think a marathon is a normal thing to do um it's not and that i know people
00:29:12.760who are doing the six seven eight marathon majors in one year and yeah uh i think that is deeply
00:29:19.060unhealthy for your body uh i think your body needs three to six months rest after a supremely
00:29:26.900difficult experience like that. But people are taking, you know, people run a marathon every
00:29:33.180weekend. And I worry about them. So as a person who also used to feel this way, and people would
00:29:40.900be like, what are you training for? And I'm like, life, like, that would be my answer. It's just
00:29:45.920like, you know, sometimes I would, I ran a half marathon. And then after that, like, I would go
00:29:50.860up to 15 or 16. And it'd be like, I'm just like, playing around with what my body can do. And also
00:29:56.380recognize that anything over 15 when you run that much it kind of wipes you for the rest of the day
00:30:01.160like you're not you can't do a lot like you can hang out sort of but your body needs to recover
00:30:07.720and then I kind of got convinced that I could do it and and did one and then you get addicted and
00:30:13.540I think that there is a lot of like millennial hobby energy that is ricocheting around the field
00:30:20.980right now which is why you have people trying to do all the majors in a year or like i'm gonna do
00:30:26.900every marathon on seven continents in like a month that's one of them right now yeah that
00:30:32.640takes like a lot of transportation and planning a lot of money a lot of money yeah a lot of money
00:30:38.760and you know the amount of time that it takes to train for a marathon is also like that is very
00:30:44.020like you have to have that extra time in order to do it there are things that make it accessible
00:30:48.960only for a certain type of person absolutely so i think that's part of it is like okay well i got
00:30:55.020this but there's still more that i could do right like i got into this school but i should also try
00:31:02.160to get into this school like it's still that almost like perfectionism energy yeah and and
00:31:07.940i agree with you that there is not always a ton of conversation about just how essential rest is
00:31:14.260especially if you want to keep doing this yes like if you want to make running sustainable if you want
00:31:18.600to be running at age 55 can you do this to your body now and you know it reminds me a lot of my
00:31:25.280friends who did like were really really big college athletes and now are really struggling
00:31:31.680with their bodies absolutely yeah i've written about running in relation to capitalism so within
00:31:39.000that framework i guess of living in a capitalist society what are we brought up to think and
00:31:46.540trained to do we're trained to think about wanting more growth whether that is our pension funds
00:31:54.580whether that is our salary whether that is the distance we're running getting our times down
00:32:00.520we're trying to improve quote-unquote improve but i don't think that's healthy sustainable i don't
00:32:07.440think it's sustainable at all if we want to be running for 30 40 years what is the point of
00:32:14.820building up from 5k to an ultramarathon in three years what are you going to do for the other 47
00:32:21.880years you know right right so take your time with it take your time be patient yeah and i think it's
00:32:30.400hard like we are so uh unconditioned to the necessity of rest in the rest of our thinking
00:32:37.140that for me learning how important rest is has actually carried out into the rest of my life
00:32:44.540Like, I've learned lessons from running and how my body responds to rest in running that have been very useful in, like, my working life.
00:32:55.000And that might also go back to Caitlin's question because you do learn lessons from your running and, you know, you're evangelizing right now.