Culture Study Podcast - WTF is Spiritual Care for the Non-Religious？

00:00:00.000 this is the culture study podcast and i'm ann helen peterson and i'm vanessa zoltan i am the

00:00:12.840 co-host of hot and bothered a podcast about rom-coms and let's ask taylor swift a podcast

00:00:19.560 that looks closely at the lyrics of taylor swift and and most relevant to today i'm a

00:00:24.040 non-denominational chaplain and i teach chaplaincy at harvard divinity school we came up with this

00:00:29.760 whole idea about spiritual care for the non-religious because you're teaching this

00:00:36.920 class at Harvard Divinity School right now. So can you tell us a little bit about that class

00:00:41.260 and how it came to be? Yeah, it's really exciting because I started at Divinity School about 15

00:00:48.500 years ago. And as a non-religious person in Divinity School, there just were no pathways

00:00:54.220 for a career even though i was like this is necessary people have people get married people

00:00:59.980 have grief and people die who don't believe in god and don't want to be part of a community so

00:01:06.520 we need atheist chaplains and this moment where you know harvard is hiring someone specifically

00:01:14.240 to teach chaplains how to deliver spiritual care for non-religious people feels like a really big

00:01:21.160 step toward acknowledging that, you know, one third of Americans don't believe in traditional

00:01:27.720 religion. People are going to church less and less. And there's, you know, which you've talked

00:01:32.420 about a lot, there's the rise of loneliness and isolation. And I think especially in this moment,

00:01:37.380 we need community more than ever. And so I'm really excited to be the one who's teaching

00:01:42.580 this class, but I'm more, I'm just excited that's like an institution that goes back to the 17th

00:01:49.200 century and is like very stodgy is like no no this is now a skill that we need chaplains to have

00:01:55.180 of taking care of non-religious people is there anything like i think of the word chaplain and it

00:02:02.640 just has this incredible connotation of christianity yeah right yeah why is that also even

00:02:11.380 just like div schools right which is how people talk about divinity school like they lots of

00:02:16.000 people go to div school who do not want to become like religious leaders right they just want to

00:02:20.660 think about these questions on a larger scale but almost all of these div schools were founded as

00:02:26.940 christian institutions and as places where people went to become religious leaders specifically

00:02:31.920 christian leaders yeah so is it possible to like disarticulate yourself from that that foundation

00:02:40.440 Do you know what I mean? Totally. Yeah. I think not without sounding like an asshole, but I try

00:02:46.280 every day. Right. I just presented at a clinical pastoral education didactic, like, you know, 0.99

00:02:55.020 training tomorrow. That's a huge, huge title. Exactly. Like it was six people. I went into a

00:03:01.520 room of six chaplains in training at a memory care facility to talk about taking care of

00:03:07.760 atheists as they age and you know the woman was like Vanessa's this humanist and I was like no

00:03:13.460 I'm not and she was like Vanessa is uh right like a chaplain I'm like only kind of right like you

00:03:19.400 just want to put all these asterisks on it and um I think all the asterisks are really important

00:03:26.620 I'm trying personally to reclaim the word atheist from like Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher like

00:03:33.880 people who mock the religious yeah i'm like i can i cannot believe in god and still not judge

00:03:41.700 religious folks so yeah yeah the answer is no you know how you know how people have like color

00:03:47.680 theory that like words or synesthesia like colors that come up when you say words yeah like when i

00:03:53.660 hear atheist i see like black and like a devil pentagram you know what i mean which is not the

00:04:01.640 case but it's just there's a branding problem there's a branding problem and i don't want to

00:04:07.040 spend my life like tweaking other people's language but the reason is because america

00:04:14.000 is a super christian country and like yeah right the irony that in england um the church is part

00:04:21.300 of the state and yet no one cares about religion and here church and state are separate and yet

00:04:26.160 every president says god bless america at the end of every flipping speech

00:04:30.540 yeah right like i i don't i'm i am a jewish atheist and a chaplain is the best word for

00:04:37.720 what i do yeah yeah i do think that it's good for us to like acknowledge that very early oh i get

00:04:44.460 into fights with people because they'll be like i'm unitarian and like not christian and i'm like

00:04:50.040 no unitarianism is christian in most yes it is and they're like no it's not and i'm like

00:04:55.540 if you can't see that it's christian right like because christianity is the default monoculture

00:05:01.520 right it's like whiteness it's like you don't see it because to you it's the default but as a

00:05:06.700 jew i'm telling you it's christian right and just like the lineage yeah yeah unitarian is about

00:05:16.160 unifying the three right like it is christian and so i think it's really important to point

00:05:22.240 that out the ways that these structures are invisible do you feel like in the contempt because

00:05:29.180 a lot of people I think do not have any familiarity with what like divinity school is now or like the

00:05:33.560 people who are training to be chaplains like I know a lot of people in my life who like later

00:05:38.880 in life have gone back to train to be chaplains because doing that sort of work not in a religious

00:05:45.480 way right but just like caring for people in crisis is something that is close to their heart

00:05:51.040 um and so what like who goes to div school now like what is the what is the landscape what is

00:06:01.460 the feeling what is the vibe i will say it really depends on the div school i mean like really really

00:06:07.800 really a lot i live just a couple of miles from gordon conwell seminary which is also a div school

00:06:14.580 and it's an evangelical div school that invited me to talk and like wanted to hear from me but

00:06:20.400 they are like very conservative and then harvard divinity school is just like the island of misfit 0.82

00:06:26.440 toys it's like queer folks atheists people who love catholicism but because they're gay can't 0.99

00:06:33.760 be priests and so we're trying to figure out how to live in conversation with their catholicism 0.99

00:06:37.740 and yet know that they can't you know follow traditional paths there are you know there

00:06:43.540 obviously are more traditional students there union theological seminary has like this great

00:06:48.860 history of liberation theology i think a lot of non-christians are really drawn to that but it is

00:06:54.180 a christian seminary um and then places that you wouldn't necessarily think of as christian like

00:06:59.000 yale are christian the university or princeton right princeton where so i grew a presbyterian

00:07:04.840 and like all i was always so i was like oh my gosh my pastors went to princeton seminary i was

00:07:09.940 like that's just kind of like where a lot of presbyterians go i mean obviously it's a good

00:07:14.480 school but but it wasn't like the same thing as someone from my small town going to princeton for

00:07:21.880 undergraduate i would say um okay so another thing this is just a tricky conversation i think for

00:07:29.900 people who are like super super religious sometimes but also for non-religious people

00:07:34.520 yeah and i think the best way that we can make this episode accessible to everyone is a little

00:07:39.180 bit of table setting so what are we talking about when we talk about spiritual care

00:07:44.520 So what we're talking about is taking care of people in non-therapeutic ways.

00:07:49.000 So if you think about therapy as dealing with something pathological, something out of the norm, you are depressed.

00:07:57.900 That is not the way that, you know, you want to walk through your default state.

00:08:02.300 You are dealing with tremendous anxiety and it is really getting in the way of your life.

00:08:06.960 That is something you go to therapy for.

00:08:09.280 Spiritual care is when you are going through the motions of life and it is you need someone

00:08:17.220 to tend to part of you that I really think that just like other roles don't.

00:08:24.380 So best case scenario, you have really loving parents who die at 95 and you're 65 and you

00:08:34.580 will grieve them, right?

00:08:35.600 Like that is the best case scenario.

00:08:37.380 it is not pathological or bad to be sad and go through grief and your friends might not be the

00:08:46.500 most helpful people they might be uncomfortable with death they might be dealing with their own

00:08:50.920 trauma and so having someone in your life who is there to hold space to use really difficult

00:08:57.480 language for your grief and not be made uncomfortable by your grief and really like

00:09:04.280 allow you to steer whatever it is that you need and really you know someone who has experienced

00:09:12.420 leading spiritual care will have like a toolkit of things that they can offer you in those moments

00:09:18.080 in order to get through them and it's why we go to people for weddings like it's a skill running a

00:09:24.560 wedding right like because of youtube we can all be our own plumbers to some extent and friends can

00:09:30.020 officiate our weddings but like there are times in our lives where for various reasons you do want

00:09:35.660 sort of a spiritual care professional to come in what strikes me about that description is i think

00:09:42.140 because in part as fewer and fewer people are members of churches and or of other religious

00:09:48.440 organizations are what are called broadly nuns yeah right like no no religious affiliation um

00:09:54.800 that people have sought that role in therapy right and that you know it might be the difference

00:10:01.820 between a therapist and like a psychologist right you know when I hear advertisements for like

00:10:07.660 better help and other like apps right a lot of what they're hailing is are you going through a

00:10:14.280 tough time yeah do you want to talk to someone right right and then also sometimes people have

00:10:20.200 that friend yes who is essentially they're like spiritual caregiver right they're the person who

00:10:27.780 really stewards them through difficult times and people have that skill in their friend group

00:10:32.640 without ever being trained for it although you probably be even better with it added if you were

00:10:36.220 trained but like that that to me is interesting because a lot of what you're describing i'm like

00:10:40.700 that's what people i know that's when they're like oh i need to find a therapist yeah not i need to

00:10:47.200 find a spiritual caregiver totally i do think that you find spiritual care providers in certain

00:10:52.260 settings they are hanging out in hospitals they are attending prisons they are going to places

00:10:59.600 where friends have a really hard time showing up um but i'll say because i am i'm an atheist and i

00:11:08.360 found out two years ago now that my husband was cheating on me and i found a therapist and we

00:11:13.780 found a couples therapist. And I went to my friend who's a priest because part of what I needed to

00:11:19.600 figure out is like, what do I feel about vows and promises? What value do I want to hold myself to,

00:11:29.300 if any? That was kind of the only place that I could think of where someone would be trained

00:11:36.000 in offering me different perspectives on that. And I trusted him. I knew he wasn't going to be like,

00:11:41.100 we'll vow to God, right? Like stay in bad marriages. But I just think that, yeah, there

00:11:46.880 are moments where we feel like we need some sort of spiritual care. Have you had a moment where

00:11:53.380 you're like, I feel like I need to talk to someone about something that it's like not therapy. I just

00:12:02.320 need to pour out my heart. I think that, interestingly, writing often is that thing

00:12:10.920 for me. Yeah, totally. Right? Like writing is my spiritual care. Yes. I would call it a sacred

00:12:16.620 practice. It's an imperfect modality. And even when I was growing up in the church, like my

00:12:25.040 my pastors were very important people to me but they were not that place for confiding and

00:12:33.980 I think much more like there were youth leaders in my church and stuff like that who became that

00:12:38.480 for me yeah but I think what we're both pointing to is just a paucity yeah of providers yeah

00:12:45.640 and so we turn to one person in our lives and that could be a therapist or it could be a friend

00:12:52.940 or it could be a partner who then becomes like it's too much for any one person I think most of

00:12:58.820 the time. The other thing about going to a chaplain is that often it's for a much shorter time period

00:13:03.700 so you're a therapist right part of therapy is having a certain kind of relationship and a

00:13:08.640 certain kind of dynamic with your therapist and trust has to be built over time in order for

00:13:13.560 projection to go a certain way right but with when you go in theory to a chaplain it's like I'm going

00:13:20.120 through this hard time and having someone who has no vested interest in your life is actually

00:13:26.320 really helpful going to my minister friend who like he doesn't care long term in the best way

00:13:34.320 whether or not I stay married he has as much context as I want to give him and no more and

00:13:41.360 so having these people sort of come in for brief moments I do think is just it's a helpful extra

00:13:47.980 a perspective sometimes. Yes, absolutely. So we're going to get into our questions from listeners,

00:13:54.220 which are actually really fantastic. So this first one comes from Catherine.

00:13:59.020 My question is, what makes some rituals feel profound and meaningful, while others feel

00:14:03.460 empty or performative? Is it the symbolism, the shared experience, the historical weight,

00:14:09.000 or something else? Okay, so what comes to mind when you think of like a performative

00:14:14.900 communal ritual so i do think that this is all in the eye of the beholder there was a really

00:14:21.820 interesting thing that happened at harvard divinity school a tree got chopped down and

00:14:28.500 there were two really big reactions to this some people felt as though this tree was murdered

00:14:33.060 and that there was like deep corruption around the tree being murdered in order to make space

00:14:38.900 for a building and that capitalism had murdered this tree and the authorities have lied and then

00:14:44.000 half of the people were like, that's a flipping tree. And like, we love trees and let's replant

00:14:48.480 a tree, but who cares? And there was a funeral for the tree. And there were people at this tree

00:14:54.600 funeral weeping. And there were people on the outside of the circle being like, this is the

00:14:59.720 most ridiculous thing I've ever heard and seen in my life. And so I do think sometimes, not all the

00:15:05.500 time, but I do think that there isn't necessarily a secret formula. We'll talk about some formulas

00:15:11.740 to ritual. But I do think sometimes it comes down to taste. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean,

00:15:19.040 I think about the act of communion within the Christian church, and how it's like incredibly 0.88

00:15:24.700 macabre to be like, you are literally consuming the body of Christ and the blood of Christ. 0.85

00:15:31.460 And yet, for me, you know, I don't believe in substantiation anymore, which is the transfer of

00:15:39.860 the the belief that it is actually the literal body and blood of christ but i do

00:15:46.180 love the squishy little bread like because it like it is a ritual of my childhood that that

00:15:53.920 brings it a comfort and like the various calls and responses from the church and i think though

00:15:59.160 that that is also a matter of taste some people are traumatized by their church upbringing and

00:16:03.860 are like if you make me take communion i will run out of this church screaming right right right

00:16:08.720 right but even just like it's in bad taste to drink the blood of your god i don't know um

00:16:15.780 but there is or even that it's bad it's in bad taste for us to be laughing about 0.90

00:16:20.700 you can get away with it more than i can i atheist jew i'm not laughing guys

00:16:28.240 but that that does make sense to me because even something like the pledge of allegiance i think to

00:16:35.100 a lot of people apart from like the jingoistic nationalistic component like they feel like it's

00:16:41.580 tacky yeah or like fascistic to put your hand over your heart right and also talk about no

00:16:47.260 separation of church and state one of my best friends did write a book called the power of

00:16:51.760 ritual casper cheryl yes yes and he fan yes me too and he talks about with ritual that it's

00:16:58.600 intention attention and repetition yes and so i do want to say that like those are the three things

00:17:04.440 that we would say are like part of a well-structured ritual but that doesn't necessarily

00:17:09.420 mean that it like feels good it can still feel empty okay a great example of this i think is

00:17:16.280 there are a lot of peloton instructors yeah and yoga yoga instructors um athletic instructors

00:17:21.960 just generally who have rituals built into their practice yes and so sometimes like one of my

00:17:30.580 favorites christine it's i am i can i will i do and she oftentimes during rides like it's like

00:17:38.400 sometimes it's prolonged and you know what's coming and like she has you do visualizations

00:17:43.620 of it like all of this sort of thing i love her that to me does it just doesn't work yes right

00:17:49.620 it just it is not my taste in ritual but then there were other things like there is like a

00:17:55.660 visualization that she does that I'm like this works for me right and it doesn't mean that that

00:18:02.520 person and their ritual is bad it just means that it does or does not work for you right and like

00:18:10.320 she's very much hailing a certain type of person with her ritual yeah I have the same thing with

00:18:16.620 Robin who I love and whenever she's like you're doing this for your ancestors I'm like no I'm not

00:18:22.320 lady my grandparents could not care less if i hit my tabaticals i love you no one of my students

00:18:33.620 for her final project designed a funeral for diet coke and it ended up and she did it on purpose to 0.98

00:18:41.340 be silly right yeah but she was like she did the math on how much plastic like how much just like

00:18:47.380 truly environmental catastrophe has happened because of diet coke in terms of straw use and 0.86

00:18:52.820 plastic use and water use and that it is designed to have no nourishment yes um and she had everybody

00:19:01.460 who liked diet coke like say something about diet coke and it was this really beautiful metaphor

00:19:08.200 about how if we are going to be committed to trying to have a better planet we're gonna have

00:19:13.820 to sacrifice things that do matter to us and it is gonna have to hurt and it had an intention

00:19:20.460 it had a tension and the repetition that it had was like it followed a funeral format and it was

00:19:27.360 very silly and also i i like didn't do a poll afterwards but the class i was very moved and

00:19:34.200 the class felt very moved and i feel like if you tell people today i went to a diet coke funeral

00:19:38.800 that would be not to a lot of people's taste right but it can be it can become incredibly 0.97

00:19:45.500 meaningful yeah i personally love like on you if you tell me about some corny shit that's gonna

00:19:52.760 happen i'm like but then like you go and you say nice things about each other and then i'm like oh

00:19:58.700 that was really meaningful like i really appreciated it right so i think sometimes there's that

00:20:04.660 separation between like you say out loud what a diet coke funeral is yeah is different from

00:20:11.000 the experience itself I personally experienced this with like praise music in the Christian

00:20:18.120 church like if you look at the lyrics or like the style and now that I have distance from it I'm like

00:20:23.540 oh my gosh like I said gosh purposely there to not be blasphemous I guess um and but when I was

00:20:32.220 in it right like nothing was more moving yeah like the moment at the end of singing um our god is an

00:20:38.160 awesome god when you all like we all would get super quiet and then yell jesus and it would echo

00:20:43.020 across the lake like the height of meaning right but now that's not meaningful to me i guess our

00:20:49.560 question here is like what makes it work i don't know like i do think some technical stuff right

00:20:54.820 like a good ritual needs to have a beginning and an ending and all the mini parts within it need

00:21:00.240 to have beginnings and endings like it has to be sort of clear and I do think that any good ritual

00:21:07.160 has a moment for people to connect with each other whether it's turning to the person next

00:21:11.340 to you and saying like go in peace right but all of that is like necessary but not sufficient

00:21:16.460 if you're gonna be disgusted by it and therefore be taken out of it totally like it doesn't matter

00:21:22.300 how well designed of a ritual it is how well intended of a ritual it is I also think if the

00:21:27.300 ritual has a goal outside of the ritual that right like if it's we're gonna do this ritual

00:21:33.900 because we're trying to convert you we're gonna do this ritual because we want to sell something to

00:21:37.840 you right right right the ritual needs to be about itself yeah that's interesting how do you with

00:21:46.400 like your pilgrimages yeah the stuff that you do with common ground pilgrimages like how do you

00:21:51.620 incorporate ritual into that so we um if you sign up to go on a literary pilgrimage for like

00:21:59.560 six days with strangers you've self-selected into a certain kind of thing right so there's that i

00:22:07.460 would say we for the most part under ritualize so we have like a welcome game that we play and

00:22:15.320 then we have certain practices that we do every night where you share your favorite quote from

00:22:20.520 the day either that someone said a moment a quote from the text and it's based on the medieval

00:22:27.300 christian reading practice of florilegia but also we all know what quote journals are

00:22:31.520 and then i will say i bring a level of cynicism that i think is actually helpful to the rituals

00:22:39.480 on the pilgrimages our pilgrimages are very earnest and we have an hour of silent walking

00:22:44.060 every day and that is because i need an hour of quiet every day and like i'm talking the whole

00:22:50.080 time during a pilgrimage. And it is so I am nice to people. And we've like turned it into this

00:22:55.020 beautiful thing where I think we all need more silence and to listen to the birds. But it's

00:22:59.120 actually just like Vanessa needs quiet time. And then we have, you know, we do something inspired

00:23:06.240 by a Seder, but it is just like an intentional dinner with four designed questions based on the

00:23:12.260 text. And so we're constantly scaffolding it for people being like, this is inspired by the Jewish

00:23:18.280 shader but we're gonna use taylor swift lyrics as like the basis yeah yeah yeah and so i do think

00:23:25.220 humor and holding it lightly is key if you're gonna use like big r heavy rituals yeah no that

00:23:34.400 makes sense to me i keep thinking about this um on these cycling trips that i go on at the very end

00:23:39.680 you just kind of go around and say like what made the experience meaningful and i think oftentimes

00:23:45.920 on like trips you don't have the opportunity to actually do that sort of reflection because

00:23:50.660 oftentimes it's just you and your partner you and your friend or whatever like you know it's like

00:23:55.120 this hotel was cool instead of like I really pushed myself in these ways and like I met people

00:24:01.340 that I wouldn't have otherwise and it was like that was really meaningful to me just having that

00:24:06.660 opportunity to to vocalize it is but it's very loose like no one's like everyone go around the

00:24:13.020 circle and you must say what you are feeling in this moment oh see that is one of the only things

00:24:18.600 we're strict about so we assign people to bless another person on the first day and we're like

00:24:26.540 so ann you're gonna bless melody and you guys don't know each other we intentionally assign

00:24:31.140 people who don't know each other and that way over the course of the trip you have to sort of

00:24:34.700 observe melody and we we model what a blessing is which is just like melody i love how prepared

00:24:42.320 you are for everything. I think that that is awesome. And what I wish for you is that other

00:24:47.060 people take care of you in the way that you take care of other people, right? We model something

00:24:51.240 simple, but we do go around in a circle and make everybody say something nice about one other

00:24:57.260 person. Okay, I like that. I like that. No, no, no, no. But that's nice about someone else, right?

00:25:02.220 Instead of like saying, you don't have to necessarily, at least in the beginning,

00:25:07.220 draw from that tremendous well of personal experience and reflection.

00:25:10.940 but it's a me we have not done a series of blessings where people don't cry and it is like

00:25:16.400 the most skeptical people at the beginning are always the ones who are like what has happened to

00:25:21.380 me and i'm just like the ritual worked this is bringing back something from my college years so

00:25:27.000 i was in a sorority and sororities and fraternities have a lot of rituals in part because it bounds

00:25:31.320 you to each other and also secrecy and like the secret ones are all like oh this is how you tap

00:25:37.700 your index finger when you shake hands um but we had a ritual which probably was borrowed from

00:25:45.880 in some way from christian foot washing but instead it was you would go up you'd pick someone

00:25:52.460 else from the circle and you'd wash each other's hands in the center of the circle and no one could

00:25:57.700 hear what you were saying yeah but two people would go up there and it was really used as a 0.97

00:26:02.080 way to like forgive people fascinating like to kind of like deal with some shit wow yeah because

00:26:11.220 it always happened at the end of the year and did you get to pick who's yes you got if you like you 0.98

00:26:17.700 chose like i would stand up let's say i had some shit with melody yeah i mean come on stand up i 0.80

00:26:22.800 would go over to melody grab her hand and bring her in and then i would say like whatever i needed 0.99

00:26:27.800 to say to her did someone's hands get washed like eight times like the the shit stirring person 0.60

00:26:34.500 like their hands are bleeding by the end but that would be super funny i bet that person didn't even 0.72

00:26:40.840 show up to the ritual but um and then you know but we used the same music that we used for all

00:26:47.860 of our rituals which is enya on repeat on a cd player um but i do like there was no like everyone

00:26:56.300 has to get their hands washed everyone has to go up it was just a space right and so sometimes

00:27:00.400 what ritual does or provides is a space right yeah a dip school people would say a container

00:27:07.000 i had a meeting with someone in a totally like different context and he said vanessa thank you

00:27:13.160 so much for creating a container for that i was like oh you went to dip school and he was like

00:27:17.700 yes i did 20 years ago and i was like container container not space that is that is how you know

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00:28:36.420 Okay, our next question gets at something that I've heard as a lot of millennials have left

00:28:41.440 religion. This comes from Katie Rose. My friends and I often lament the lack of community building

00:28:46.820 for non-religious folks. My sister became very Christian in college and then returned to unsure

00:28:52.220 about religion a decade later, but she learned how to build and create community in the church

00:28:57.100 and it truly serves her. Our neighbors just immigrated here and already have a huge support

00:29:02.200 system through their church, while we struggle to find anyone to help when we need it. Is there

00:29:07.480 a secular version of church we're just unaware of? How do we build community? All right, I think

00:29:13.240 about this constantly especially as i'm finishing my book on people building community and friendship

00:29:18.880 and i've seen this actually most acutely with the guys that i've interviewed and my theory

00:29:26.640 is that guys in particular do not have models of intimacy that aren't around like guys hang out

00:29:36.300 side by side instead of face to face right except for if they were raised in a religious tradition

00:29:42.300 where once a week they got together and like read their religious text and talked about their lives

00:29:47.060 yeah and so guys who grew up in that or are part of it still have a lot of practice or modeling or

00:29:56.120 just like had internalized that like oh it's okay for guys to get together and talk about their

00:30:01.820 feelings like sometimes we use a religious text as the way we interpret our feelings yeah but

00:30:08.220 otherwise like we can sit face to face and talk about these things and like pray for one another

00:30:13.200 like praying for one another is a tremendous act of intimacy right allowing yourself to have someone

00:30:20.920 else like speak to a larger power about what they wish for you as we were just just referencing with

00:30:26.860 the blessings right so I absolutely agree with learning a lot of those skills like even my least

00:30:35.220 favorite part of church when you at the very beginning when you greet the people and you just

00:30:41.800 are like good morning like you just have to walk around and be like good morning good morning

00:30:45.920 also a very good skill yeah um and for some of those people the only time someone is touching

00:30:52.320 them that week yeah right yeah or showing up to things even though you know that that annoying

00:30:57.760 person is going to be there yeah but that annoying person is part of what makes the community like

00:31:01.800 there's so many things that I think you learn from being part of these organizations so what

00:31:07.780 is your thinking on things that serve a similar role yeah I just want to say like I think what 0.93

00:31:17.080 you were just talking about can't be overstated Mormonism is pretty horrible to women and queer

00:31:22.400 folks and black people right and the state of Utah has like the highest literacy rate and the lowest 0.73

00:31:29.420 homeless rate right like it's just both and the the hope for me is to like take the good and leave

00:31:39.100 the bad to the best of our ability um and so there are some places and casper in his book power of

00:31:46.460 ritual talks about this in his book places like crossfit right like there are places where you

00:31:52.260 can leave where you currently live join another crossfit box and like people will take care of

00:31:58.060 you yep there's a pay-to-play angle there it's like a little complicated and it's not my thing

00:32:03.820 but it really means a lot to a lot of people and I think serves really similar needs and there are

00:32:09.980 all sorts of spaces like that I do think that there are if you live in a big city there is

00:32:15.720 someone trying to do this there are a lot of alternative communities that people are trying

00:32:21.640 to create to do exactly this ethical societies we have local groups that meet to treat like

00:32:28.920 taylor swift is sacred together and we always try to encourage people you know you're you're

00:32:33.960 bonding over your love of a secular thing and then we try to steal the good bits of the spiritual

00:32:40.160 technologies to help people bond over the secular thing yeah um but like i really do think the way

00:32:48.800 to do it now is to do it based on something that you love because then you will stick with it. So

00:32:57.720 if it's Taylor Swift, join a Taylor Swift fan club and meet in person so that if someone in your

00:33:05.140 group breaks their leg, you can bring them soup and same to you. But like if it's volunteering

00:33:10.580 at a library, no matter where you move, there will be a library and then you'll have a skill

00:33:14.980 to offer but you're more likely to stick to whatever if it is something you genuinely love

00:33:21.660 yeah and so you know we talk about something as sacred if it has these three components which are

00:33:27.860 faith rigor and community and faith means the more time you spend with it the more gifts it will give

00:33:34.060 you so the more often I cook for a local shelter the more often I cook for the shelter the more

00:33:40.440 gifts it will give me. I cook more often with my kids because of it. I get better at certain

00:33:45.660 recipes. I recognize certain people. It gives me more and more. It gives the community more and

00:33:51.400 more. Rigor, there are, I have a commitment that I do this once a month. There are months that I

00:33:56.040 absolutely feel way too stressed to do it and absolutely don't want to do it, but you do it

00:34:00.780 anyway, right? Like, and that is rigor. And then community, I get my kids in on it with me. And

00:34:06.180 like if I had to do it alone I wouldn't do it alone you need a buddy um and if I didn't have

00:34:12.400 people relying on me on the other end right like I wouldn't do it and cooking is one of my sacred

00:34:18.380 practices I love to cook it calms me down I listen to music and so finding something you love and

00:34:24.540 then bringing those three things of faith rigor and community I think is how you start and then

00:34:30.440 this place would notice if I went missing right like yeah if I didn't show up on the first Monday

00:34:36.480 of the month yep and if I moved to another city I would find another shelter and know how to be

00:34:41.360 helpful pretty quickly and so I do think there are other ways it's different it's different church

00:34:47.140 offers something unique it just church also has a lot of bad stuff yeah so yeah and there you know

00:34:55.420 there are churches like I've a lot of my readers talk about getting plugged in to churches that

00:35:02.840 have a lot of infrastructure that does things that aren't just related to the belief system

00:35:09.940 yeah right so like people who are atheists who belong to a church because of the social justice

00:35:16.340 work yeah it does absolutely right I know that there are churches in my area that do this and

00:35:21.080 that people like and the pastors are they're like that's fine like it's not like you're hiding a

00:35:26.820 dirty secret no absolutely and the reality that I think about a lot is that historically there

00:35:32.900 have been a lot of atheists who went to church because it's what you did and it was the way you

00:35:37.980 plugged into community and I have active concerns about churches shutting down I'm like where like

00:35:46.240 where are the blanket drives going to happen where are people going to congregate in an emergency

00:35:51.180 like where is the cheap preschool going to happen like all like the churches are spaces that are

00:35:57.560 sustainable in part because of their tax exemption which you know i know that that's not unproblematic

00:36:03.300 but at the same time they have been able to remain community spaces for things like soup shelters and

00:36:09.680 like providing a lot of community infrastructure in a not like i'm going to convert you way i don't

00:36:15.440 know if people understand this like how many girl scouts meetings happen in church basements like

00:36:19.900 that sort of thing our harry potter and the sacred text groups met in church basements right

00:36:23.620 and again i'm an atheist who's like super pro healthy relationships with religion and like

00:36:29.940 some of my best friends are ministers and rabbis right these are really important spaces this is

00:36:37.040 just like we're just talking about things to do if you don't happen to be religious and a lot of

00:36:42.700 people have been severely traumatized by religion and so going back into those spaces it's just not

00:36:47.680 an option totally totally one thing that i think about like on my island there is a local grange

00:36:54.020 which granges are like um a social club that was historically associated with people who were

00:37:00.820 farmers or in ag in some way and but it has the building right like it the building is still here

00:37:06.460 and so the grange itself still is alive but it's a social club and it's a great way to meet people

00:37:12.500 intergenerationally yeah um to do a lot of like the volunteer work on the island it also houses

00:37:18.200 a church it also hosts honky tonks like there is a lot of things like a lot of different vectors

00:37:23.460 coming in yeah and that like if you wanted if you move to this island and you immediately wanted to

00:37:29.580 get plugged in with people like that's what i would tell like you wanted to be a person who's

00:37:33.460 like oh my gosh i need emergency child care yeah someone just to come over and just sit in my house

00:37:38.900 for two hours going to that the meetings every month like and talking to people at those meetings

00:37:44.420 and doing that that's how you're going to make that structure I do think it's slightly different

00:37:50.560 than a church because a church is so desperate for members oftentimes yeah now they like they

00:37:55.480 reach out so aggressively that like you get into the fold immediately whereas like I think with

00:38:02.460 some other organizations like even volunteering at a at a soup kitchen like it's going to take time

00:38:07.920 Yes. And something that we talk about a lot about on the show and I talk about in the newsletter is like, I think we have become very optimized in the way that we think about how these things should work. Totally. And when you don't feel that feeling the first time that you show up at something, you're like, well, if it's not for me, it's not going to work. Right. Instead of, oh, I've been going for a year and it's not working, then yeah, it's probably not going to work. Right. Totally. I mean, I was just going to repeat what you said. You have to be in this stuff for the long game. Right.

00:38:37.660 you're playing a long game um in community building especially okay so next question

00:38:44.560 is from julie it seems like between the wellness industry and online cult leaders there's never

00:38:51.620 been easier distribution of ideas for bad actors willing to exploit the core need people have when

00:38:57.600 they're seeking alternative spiritual care what are the telltale signs of a false friend in

00:39:02.960 spiritual care or what vulnerable impulse should people be aware of trying not to feed

00:39:08.240 love this question beautiful question uh just beautifully phrased to a false friend great uh

00:39:15.200 what what does this make you think of immediately i came up with like a rubric because i was like

00:39:20.340 this is such an important question okay first of all if there's no way to to engage with it at all

00:39:28.420 in a free way I would be very skeptical right there is a free way to listen to your podcast

00:39:33.960 and if you want to financially support you and melody more and you know subscribe to different

00:39:39.460 levels of the newsletter you can but you are offering care and love and information for free

00:39:45.900 and every church should and like if if you have to pay to play I would say be skeptical

00:39:51.840 if they aren't telling you the limit of what they have to offer be skeptical if they are oh yeah so

00:39:59.300 if there's secret information right or if they're like i'm gonna solve all your problems like oh

00:40:06.160 right if they're not like i am gonna give you some info i'm just using you as an example if i'm gonna

00:40:12.780 give you some cultural context but if you want to learn more here's the bibliography of other texts

00:40:18.780 right if they are telling you that they are going to solve everything for you but like leave bad

00:40:24.340 vibe and they should be giving you something that matters to you not just asking to sacrifice but

00:40:33.360 the big thing i'll say and and i'm going to just quote religion you know it by its fruits and the

00:40:39.140 way that i define fruits is if it makes you better at loving right and like face cream is not going

00:40:47.180 to make you better at loving um I mean like maybe you can justify it like it actually makes me feel

00:40:52.440 more confident therefore right raw milk yeah not gonna make you better at loving it's not

00:40:57.760 and so that's how I right like that's the check I do is like is this gonna make me a more loving

00:41:03.260 person more likely to be nice to my very annoying neighbor right like that that's the check to me

00:41:08.920 yeah I the thing I think about is if you can sense that it's manipulating you in some way

00:41:16.140 and this is difficult but if there is parts of it like pretty surface level parts of it

00:41:22.960 that are touching manipulation centers yeah that are making you cry every single time you watch

00:41:28.960 like an instagram reel from this person yeah right that are using the recovery of vulnerable

00:41:34.760 people right or vulnerable like dogs or i'm trying to they're using things that like are very

00:41:42.900 easy to make you feel big emotions and thus associate those big emotions with something

00:41:50.840 that is not necessarily like it doesn't have the rigor that you described right like there's

00:41:56.420 nothing hard but on the flip side it shouldn't all be hard right you know like like i think about

00:42:03.220 the gospel of hard 75 do you know about hard 70 no i so the hard 75 challenge is like all these

00:42:10.500 things like you have to read 75 pages and walk or exercise 75 minutes and like do 70 like it's

00:42:18.880 all about sacrifice and restriction right so like if it's like a diet yeah it's not a religious

00:42:26.180 practice i think yeah or right like i always if it's only a diet if it's only a diet i can't

00:42:33.220 remember like which jerky youtuber says this but like if it's just if it's promising big things

00:42:39.260 It's like if you make your bed every day, young men, you are starting your day with a sense of duty and responsibility and then it's going to change your whole life.

00:42:49.860 It's like, well, that's a really big promise that I really don't think making my bed is going to do.

00:42:54.740 So like big promises.

00:42:57.480 The way we're talking about it, I'm like, this is also how you avoid toxic men.

00:43:02.580 Or super toxic components of religion.

00:43:05.680 Like we're not just talking about gurus.

00:43:07.480 We're talking about, like, high-control Christianity or other high-control religions. 0.86

00:43:12.360 Chabad in Judaism. 1.00

00:43:14.140 Yeah.

00:43:14.440 Right, right.

00:43:15.400 No, and I'm thinking about something like, you know, we're recording this during Ramadan,

00:43:19.800 and I think that, like, fasting throughout the day, like, that's not part of what I'm

00:43:23.700 thinking about in terms of restriction.

00:43:25.240 Of course.

00:43:25.920 Like, fasting can be part of a religious practice, but there is, like, there is ritual associated

00:43:31.240 with this fasting.

00:43:32.300 There is, like, intense import associated with it.

00:43:35.880 Right.

00:43:36.000 Or even, like, you know, with Lent or whatever it is.

00:43:39.720 But doing it just to do it and just for self-denial, like, that to me, there's a difference.

00:43:45.400 Also, every religion that has ritual fasting has these very important exceptions of, like, unless you're on medication where you can't fast, unless, right?

00:43:55.500 And I feel like that is another way to tell.

00:43:58.220 It's, like, are they considerate of nuance?

00:44:02.160 Then, okay.

00:44:03.520 and if they're like no no matter what fasting yeah like that again bad vibe yeah okay do you

00:44:11.060 think that melody did we describe this did i describe it like i was gonna bring up the angler

00:44:15.020 fish i was like if someone was watching if someone there was like a spiritual guru who like did the

00:44:21.280 equivalent of showing you the angler fish tiktok video be wary that's what i'm trying to say

00:44:27.440 or like okay well it brought to mind for me this woman who was blowing up on my algorithm who is 0.99

00:44:34.160 like the answer to everything is cleaning your house and you are making it too difficult and

00:44:40.760 you're just being lazy and it doesn't have to take you all day and fortunately i follow casey 0.99

00:44:46.120 who is like this is all bullshit that goes back like 200 years with roots in white supremacy 0.98

00:44:52.680 city um yeah but people are like but i love her it's tough love and she tells it like it is and 0.98

00:44:59.460 now my house is clean anyone says tough love be wary yes

00:45:04.320 if anyone that's a great shortcut if anyone following that person says like part of why i

00:45:12.060 like them is tough love be wary um yeah that that would be my general thing and it also goes back

00:45:17.700 to your point about like, does this make me a more loving person? Like cleaning your house does not

00:45:22.780 make you a more loving person. In fact, I think it makes you a less loving person. Okay. Last

00:45:28.460 question. This one is about best practices for spiritual care that don't reinforce harmful

00:45:33.940 ideologies. Let's hear from Anjali. I have spent a lot of time thinking on my own about how to

00:45:39.460 orient my life around my ethics and values without falling back on dogma. But I struggle when it

00:45:44.760 comes to doing this in community. When I have tried in the past, I've experienced some common

00:45:49.440 themes. I often encounter people who have left some kind of Christianity, and while they have

00:45:54.340 separated from their church, their frameworks still come from that tradition. Or, there is a

00:45:59.560 lot of romanticization of other religious traditions. As someone who is Indian American

00:46:03.920 raised Hindu, I'm very sensitive to this because the global north loves to romanticize and fetishize

00:46:09.360 whatever version of Hinduism they have been very intentionally sold, usually a sanitized version,

00:46:14.760 that marginalizes harmful casteism, sectarian violence, and Islamophobia.

00:46:19.960 So I guess my question is, what are some safeguards people can put in place

00:46:23.800 while exploring their spirituality that doesn't cause harm to marginalized people,

00:46:28.960 either through white capitalist consumption,

00:46:31.320 like the Yoga Wellness Ayahuasca Retreat Industrial Complex,

00:46:34.780 or by spreading sanitized histories?

00:46:37.660 Such a good question.

00:46:39.940 Where do you want to start here?

00:46:40.960 I feel like you're the only person I would want to answer this.

00:46:44.760 I, that's so flattering, and I, we'll see how I do.

00:46:50.120 I, I'm gonna start by, like, talking about what bothers me as a Jew, so, and going out

00:46:56.280 from there.

00:46:56.680 So, um, tech Sabbath does not bother me.

00:47:00.580 When people are like, I, right, Shabbat is the second holiest holiday in Judaism, you

00:47:06.140 have Yom Kippur, and then there are 52 days a year that are the second holiest day. 0.73

00:47:10.480 It is a commandment. 0.98

00:47:12.100 Keep the Sabbath.

00:47:12.880 um and so and so it's really really sacred and when people are like i take a tech sabbath i turn

00:47:20.300 off my phone and computer every friday night to saturday night i don't feel like they are

00:47:26.660 belittling it doesn't bother me it doesn't feel like they are claiming authenticity or fetishizing 0.76

00:47:33.800 tech sabbath but when i get invited by a non-jew to a satyr no which i have i'm like no 0.87

00:47:43.040 What you can do is say, I love seders and so inspired by that, I'm going to host a dinner 0.87

00:47:47.900 party with questions.

00:47:49.680 I think there's something about like claiming authenticity. 1.00

00:47:52.860 Tech Sabbath isn't pretending to be Shabbat, but a seder led by a non-Jew is still pretending 0.99

00:47:58.100 to be seder. 0.99

00:48:00.120 And the metaphor I came up with is like, it would be like quoting a book.

00:48:04.560 So if you take a quote from my book and put it in your article, maybe that even makes

00:48:10.440 me feel good.

00:48:11.100 it definitely doesn't make me feel bad if you take a whole paragraph i'm like okay maybe you

00:48:17.120 could have figured out a way to put this in your own words but it's starting to feel icky if you

00:48:21.040 like pull a chapter of my book and claim it as your own or photocopy it and hand it out without

00:48:27.740 right like that feels really bad but then if you encourage all of your friends to buy my book right

00:48:33.600 like there just are gradations and like ways to do these things where you're like you can do ayahuasca

00:48:40.420 because you're like I believe in drugs creating a you know a different plane in my head I don't

00:48:47.740 know I don't I don't do drugs because I'm on antidepressants but if you're like and now I

00:48:52.900 feel more connected to a native experience right like it is about the how not the what to me

00:48:59.980 yeah no that makes sense I also like how how does yoga fit into this I the first thing I said is

00:49:09.020 like I think that there are ethical ways to do yoga yeah right like I don't think that yoga in

00:49:16.640 and of itself causes harm to marginalized people depending on how you do it so I understand a 0.85

00:49:23.620 frustration of like now there's a bunch of white ladies at the Y doing yoga with no sense of the 0.95

00:49:31.600 history that it comes from and also as long as like there isn't someone pretending to be an

00:49:40.080 expert in sanskrit right like there's a how to me of like this has been really proven to be

00:49:47.120 helpful for joints and like and we're gonna take this great thing and use it i don't know what do

00:49:54.760 you think yeah no it's like to me it's like a difference between like someone doing yoga at

00:50:00.760 the y and someone going to a yoga retreat led by other white people and then like coming home and

00:50:07.840 getting a sanskrit letter like tattooed on their arm right right like but what about okay this is

00:50:15.660 another interesting one like i i know people who have gone and done like six month intensives with

00:50:22.360 yoga teachers in india and some of them are white and some of them are not but they're not indian

00:50:27.060 like so what is the i what how do we work at that i mean and i don't think like this is i'm not

00:50:32.420 trying to ask us like okay every case right here's your here's your like yes no event like your

00:50:37.980 diagram of how whether or not this is offensive but i think that that's like an example that is

00:50:43.540 illustrative to me like does that is that immersion is that taking a religion very seriously

00:50:48.680 and the religious components of it to me this is like similar to non-violent communication

00:50:55.180 whereas non-performatively you actually have to actively be situating the thing

00:51:01.460 authentically in yourself and be like i'm a white person from massachusetts and i went to india and

00:51:08.780 learned a lot and this person taught me that and then not be like passing it off as your own there's 0.98

00:51:15.520 bad non-violent communication where you're like i feel like you're an asshole right like that's

00:51:21.300 not it has to be like that hurt my feelings you know i'm sad right now and so i'm wondering too 0.96

00:51:28.860 how much of this is also performance of being associated with this thing right right so like

00:51:34.080 part of what is gross about being an ayahuasca hippie that talks about this it's like the way

00:51:40.480 you talk about it on social media yes right like you are performing your investment in this thing

00:51:45.820 instead of like maybe just trying to figure out what that investment is yourself in your brain

00:51:50.620 Yeah, I feel like I've come up against moments of this. I was in Scotland and like took a Scottish dance class where like these Scottish people were super excited to teach a group of Americans about Scottish dance. And I was like, I had so much fun. Would I want to do this for exercise? Right. And I was like, gaming out where it would become appropriative and totally inappropriate, you know, like, I was like, there is a place at which this gets gross.

00:52:18.240 I don't think paying this Scottish dance troupe to teach us about their culture and then enjoying it is where the line is.

00:52:28.780 Right?

00:52:29.820 Yeah.

00:52:30.740 And I also think there's always power dynamics, right?

00:52:33.520 Yes.

00:52:34.920 Are you drawing on a culture that has been historically marginalized, fetishized, colonized, and exploited by white people? 0.60

00:52:42.240 Right.

00:52:42.380 And are you a white person?

00:52:44.380 Right.

00:52:45.440 Figures into that question.

00:52:46.740 Totally.

00:52:47.000 So, like, how does this fit into the present and the dynamics that are at work at present and the way, like, the who and why are profiting from a particular practice now?

00:53:00.720 And then also historically.

00:53:03.380 Yeah.

00:53:03.820 Like, I think of something like becoming a person who's really into meditation, but because it makes you a more productive person.

00:53:09.680 Right.

00:53:10.860 Right.

00:53:11.620 You know?

00:53:12.160 And, like, talking a lot about that.

00:53:13.780 um this is very complicated but I'm glad that like Anjali is asking us these questions because

00:53:19.960 there isn't we just have to keep talking about it like I think more instead of just sometimes

00:53:27.600 being like oh that gives me the ick but that doesn't give me the ick as much right and I I

00:53:33.500 can only answer in metaphors right of like watching Grey's Anatomy doesn't make me a doctor

00:53:39.360 and so going to one ayahuasca retreat doesn't make you a different like a different identity

00:53:47.980 and so right but going to medical school does make me a doctor right so yeah yeah yeah like

00:53:55.320 there's something in there and I think we get really frustrated because sometimes it feels like

00:54:00.680 people have watched an episode of Grey's Anatomy and now they're trying to diagnose you

00:54:04.780 and you're like ew no you're not the right person for this um yeah yeah that makes sense too so yeah

00:54:13.280 and also i think there's also an element of like what the religious practice itself or the spiritual

00:54:20.620 practice itself believes about other people belonging in that spiritual practice in the

00:54:27.860 comment section of the newsletter recently someone was talking about how they themselves are not a

00:54:33.240 jewish person they don't they don't want to convert yeah their husband is and they talk to

00:54:39.760 a bunch of local rabbis about like is it okay that i go to synagogue i want to be part of this

00:54:45.520 community even though i'm not personally interested in converting yeah and the rabbis were like yes

00:54:50.780 yeah we want you here yeah but they were thoughtful enough right to have that conversation

00:54:57.620 and interestingly in judaism and we can talk this is a whole other problem but like they

00:55:04.420 wouldn't quote unquote count in some spaces so like in order in order to pray for the dead during

00:55:12.060 shiva you need 10 bar bat mitzvah people you need like 10 adult jews which is called minion

00:55:19.260 um and like she wouldn't count and if she then pretended to count and like obviously more

00:55:27.040 progressive right like this is all complicated but if she pretended to count those rabbis would

00:55:33.020 have a different feeling yes but if she's like no i'm here because i want to learn and love this

00:55:38.080 that feels that feels wonderful right or like if you were attending a christian church some

00:55:44.820 feel very strongly about who can take communion yes i have had christians literally look at me

00:55:51.220 when i'm in church and be like you don't go up there and i'm like no i don't like i super don't

00:55:56.880 want to but like people get mad at the thought that i might and i'm like but some do right some

00:56:02.720 are like participate in the breaking of bread with us um or like this whole dinner is our

00:56:08.780 communion right like by breaking bread with us you you're doing communion but it's a a case-by-case

00:56:15.580 basis which is does not answer Anjali's question but maybe we have given some mixed metaphors

00:56:22.080 on how to detect some of the situations that will lead to much more exploitation than others

00:56:27.860 I think that your answer about power is right is like making sure that the the group that

00:56:34.680 historically has been more marginalized is getting to set the terms like that's gonna do

00:56:40.600 a lot of the work yeah and not like you doing it and being like i had a conversation with the

00:56:48.440 leader so now i get to set the terms right like she said i was like i could come and i could like

00:56:54.260 use these words so now i'm in charge i did have a friend in grad school text me she's catholic and

00:57:01.580 she was like everybody is missing school today for yom kippur can i miss school today for yom

00:57:06.140 kippur i need your permission and i was like on behalf of all jews yes go ahead so i don't know

00:57:13.980 every once in a while

00:57:16.120 and if you ever need a jew to bless you on something just text me

00:57:22.360 just text the atheist jew who's also a spiritual leader yeah 0.50

00:57:25.900 spiritual how do we say that it's spiritual you're not a spiritual leader like you said 0.88

00:57:33.820 Like when you were getting introduced, you're like, I'm not a humanist.

00:57:36.820 I mean, I'm not really an atheist chaplain. 1.00

00:57:40.380 That's bad. 1.00

00:57:41.040 Atheist chaplain. 1.00

00:57:42.220 I don't know, man.

00:57:43.640 I don't know.

00:57:44.160 We're we're we're we're brandy.

00:57:45.700 Remember, I'm trying to think I'm trying to reprogram my brain.

00:57:49.180 I'm going to my favorite color is blue.

00:57:50.740 I'm going to think blue now when I hear the word atheist.

00:57:55.140 Thank you.

00:57:55.840 This has been fantastic.

00:57:57.820 Thank you so much for coming on the show.

00:57:59.900 Where can listeners find you if they want to find more from you on the Internet?

00:58:02.680 They can subscribe to our podcast, Let's Ask Taylor Swift, which Anne is in our very first episode, and Hot and Bothered, where we talk about rom-coms.

00:58:12.960 So that's why.

00:58:13.280 See you soon.

00:58:14.280 Thank you again.

00:58:15.360 Thank you.

00:58:20.620 Thanks for listening to the Culture Study Podcast.

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00:58:34.080 We've got so much wisdom, sort of.

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00:59:00.340 We have so many great episodes in the works, and I promise that you don't want to miss

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00:59:23.680 Anne Helen Peterson, and Melody Raul.

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00:59:45.300 You

Culture Study Podcast - April 02, 2025

WTF is Spiritual Care for the Non-Religious？

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