Culture Study Podcast - How Did Dating Get THIS Difficult？

00:00:00.780 Hi, everyone. This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne-Hellen Peterson.

00:00:04.920 And I'm John Gwinn-Hill. I'm the host of the podcast Explain It to Me from Vox.

00:00:09.740 What is your read on the dating scene right now?

00:00:14.500 Ooh, at this current moment?

00:00:16.700 Yeah.

00:00:18.400 Okay, I'm forever an optimist, but I will say I will not lie.

00:00:23.380 As a person who is out here in these single streets, it's not easy.

00:00:30.000 It can be very demoralizing. The highs are high and the lows, oh baby. They are low. They are low.

00:00:39.300 What are some, we're going to talk about our positionality and relationship to dating in just

00:00:43.460 a second, but I want to hear some of the dating related questions that you've talked about

00:00:48.380 on Explain It To Me, because that's part of the reason that Maladie thought that you would be

00:00:52.880 the perfect person for this, not just because you're out there on the single street.

00:00:56.280 okay so there are two major ones I think of one is the question we've got is why is dating so bad

00:01:02.740 for men young men in particular and I admit when I first heard that I was like wait what do you mean

00:01:08.880 but then because I don't know I think it's very easy to look at the other side of straight dating

00:01:14.440 and to think oh you have it so easy because I'm like oh if I was a man with a job I'd be married

00:01:19.100 so fast so easily but yeah it's not true and also like yeah with a job like the men are are

00:01:29.220 struggling and so that is a factor especially when you think of how we're often socialized I think

00:01:36.300 the reality of what society is and what we're socialized to think what society is are two

00:01:42.620 different things and there's a lot of catch-up and a lot of growing pains yeah the other was

00:01:47.740 this question of if cuffing season is real or not are you familiar with cuffing season I know well

00:01:53.080 I listened to your episode and I was like is it cuffing season right now it is we are in the midst

00:01:57.940 of cuffing season so it's this idea that you know the weather gets a little colder you start looking

00:02:04.080 around you want to have a boo like I I think of it you know if we're talking in sports like

00:02:09.860 you know August September that's preseason we're in it right now and I think of you know the finals

00:02:14.460 the championship as valentine's day like that is what you're trying to make it to um and yes

00:02:21.680 cuffing season is real but it turns out that you know and we'll get to this but if you're on the

00:02:27.380 dating apps the best time of year the best day for you to get on the dating apps is the sunday

00:02:33.080 after new year's day it's wild that's so fascinating but it makes absolute sense yeah it's a numbers

00:02:39.220 game if you are single and you want yourself a little boo pour yourself if you drink have a

00:02:43.940 glass of wine if you don't grab a seltzer maybe a LaCroix uh and refresh those pictures and the

00:02:50.380 Sunday after New Year's Day settle down because the love of your life could be one swipe away

00:02:55.120 okay so positionality I was a serial monogamist through my 20s and 30s in terms of like I was in

00:03:05.580 grad school so I moved around a lot and so that would force I would like try to do long distance

00:03:09.820 and then that wouldn't work and then break up and get another boyfriend who was also almost always

00:03:15.440 a graduate student because I would go on the apps and be like, I only am going to sort for 0.55

00:03:24.060 graduate students because they're the only people who understand my weird ass life, right? Like how 0.68

00:03:30.860 I relate to work, how I, like what my brain is always doing, like how I think about time off,

00:03:36.400 how little money I have like all of those things and it was actually one of my relationships there

00:03:41.380 was a huge friction in it because he was in like he was a science graduate student and they got so

00:03:49.040 much more money than me as a humanities graduate student and I was like ah but I then I found my

00:03:57.900 current partner who I've been with for over 10 years uh in the digital media trenches like we

00:04:03.400 were working at BuzzFeed. So it was very much like proximity thing. And I think part of the

00:04:09.940 frustration with contemporary dating is a lot of the different mechanisms that used to allow people

00:04:15.480 to like mingle closely with a lot of people their same age are gone. Yeah. Yeah. Or we just view

00:04:25.080 them a lot differently now. Totally. Totally. So that but I also like as a person who runs a

00:04:31.520 newsletter with lots of people who are writing about their personal lives all the time in the

00:04:34.520 comments, and also saw every single person who wrote in with comments or questions for this

00:04:40.900 episode. I know that there is a ton of frustration, and this is from straight people, from queer 1.00

00:04:48.060 people, especially I'm hearing it from women, but that's because I think women talk about it

00:04:53.320 a lot more. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so what's your positionality to this topic? Okay, so I've done

00:05:00.960 a lot of dating a lot of dating i have i've had quite a few of what the kids would call now

00:05:07.500 situationships is what they would call them um yeah especially you know my 20s i'm in my mid 30s

00:05:13.560 now i've also had my fair share of you know long-term boyfriends and so that's been good too

00:05:19.540 you know uh i let relationships run their course and after they've run their course however long

00:05:25.420 that is it's like okay well it comes to an end sometimes with some tears sometimes in a real

00:05:31.740 amicable way but it is what it is uh and i've are you are you good at breaking up with someone

00:05:38.420 when the breakup should happen like or do you let it run past the point of expiration

00:05:43.800 i think if it's up to me i will let something run past the point of expiration i have the fortune

00:05:51.120 and the misfortune of dating men who are like yeah girl it is what it is we've come and

00:05:57.900 sometimes that like works really well especially if you've dated a person that's super communicative

00:06:02.780 and you guys are like actually friends and it's a thing of like oh we've been talking about the

00:06:07.220 direction of this for a while like let's constantly reassess and then I've also been in this situation

00:06:11.620 where it's blindsided and you're like wait what do you mean by that what I was good you weren't

00:06:16.720 Why didn't you tell me?

00:06:18.080 I asked you what was going on and you did not tell me.

00:06:21.320 Not a fan of that.

00:06:22.860 No.

00:06:24.060 So when I was dating via apps, I was using, this dates me so much, OkCupid.

00:06:31.300 It wasn't even an app.

00:06:32.300 It was an online site.

00:06:33.960 What are you using now?

00:06:36.560 What do most people that you know use now?

00:06:38.880 So I'm taking a break from the apps right now.

00:06:41.860 I'm a firm believer that if your heart is not in it, get off.

00:06:45.080 because if not it's going to become a game it's going to become demoralizing if you feel like

00:06:50.140 doing it do it if you don't don't when I'm in the mood hinge is where it's at I feel like hinge is

00:06:56.100 where the husbands are um and hinge does it still work how it works when it first came out where

00:07:01.680 it's like people who have some sort of like second level connection to you no it's fully unhinged

00:07:08.400 now hinge is unhinged um and this happens a lot like those first few swipes like the first couple

00:07:15.100 days you're back in it's like oh we're here and then slowly your options change they hide everyone

00:07:22.560 you would actually want to talk to behind roses i do think a thing with dating apps is they tend

00:07:28.120 they do want to keep you on to an extent yeah um that's a big conspiracy brain but if you talk to

00:07:34.820 the people at the apps they're like no we do want you to find someone we do but it's like it's like

00:07:39.980 you know planned obsolescence like apple wants you to keep buying the freaking iphone so of course

00:07:45.160 they're gonna make it so the iphone doesn't last forever and dating apps don't want you to not use

00:07:50.420 the app anymore and i i often wonder like is it the apps that are bad or are we as people just

00:07:56.580 kind of bad now i mean both both it's like and i think it's like the um i don't know if you've

00:08:04.980 read there was a time i read this book called how to not die alone um i remember it going around

00:08:13.020 yeah and i do think it makes this interesting point about the amazonification of dating

00:08:17.660 like you can get to the point where you know if you're buying a vacuum if i'm about to buy a

00:08:23.120 vacuum. I'm going to read the reviews. I'm going to get the best vacuum available. I'm going to go

00:08:27.300 to Wirecutter. I'm going to go to Strategist. I'm going to ask my friends, if it's not good,

00:08:31.740 I'm going to return it. And I think we do that a little bit with people now. We're trying to

00:08:36.540 optimize and you can't optimize everything. You kind of just have to go for it at some point.

00:08:41.140 Okay. Melody is like whispering in my ear that this is a great tee up for our next question.

00:08:45.620 So before we go any further on that, this comes from Amy.

00:08:48.320 In thinking about dating and why it sucks so much now, I find myself thinking about optimization and gamification and shorter attention spans.

00:08:57.140 First, with internet dating like Match and then speed dating and now apps, it feels like we're looking for shortcuts or guarantees to connecting with someone as opposed to having some conversations and dates and actually getting to know someone.

00:09:10.840 How is it all connected and how much is this contributing to why dating sucks?

00:09:15.160 people are so risk averse and I get it having your heart broken oh I hate it oh I hate oh it 0.98

00:09:24.220 sucks so bad it's physically painful but unfortunately it's the only way putting

00:09:29.960 yourself out there and trying and just doing stuff is the only way to do it but people really

00:09:35.000 don't want to do it anymore people don't want to take risks they want to kind of solve a science

00:09:38.720 or a math problem and find the best person and it's an art not a science unfortunately

00:09:44.900 no and i think that like some of the frustration it's not exactly the same of course but it's i

00:09:50.840 see the same conversation happening in frustration with making friends in your 20s and 30s right

00:09:56.740 because it's the same thing of like where do i find them i wish that they would just appear

00:10:02.340 and i think that in our teens and in our 20s we are in situations that make it a lot easier to

00:10:10.820 connect with people just by proximity by not having as many like inputs in our life and that

00:10:18.000 makes it easier to make strong friendships but it also like makes it easier to have long conversations

00:10:24.400 with someone that might turn into like there's more time for flirting like who has time for

00:10:28.760 flirting now right like in an optimized life flirting is not something that like there's not

00:10:35.680 a lot of space for similar to just like hanging out with friends yeah I feel like people treat

00:10:41.460 the stakes like they're very high I hear that even from younger people like people in their 20s

00:10:46.360 where it's just like but I don't want to waste my time and I don't want to and it's like if you

00:10:51.740 and this is something I have to remind myself too if you enjoyed yourself for a period of time if

00:10:56.560 you learned something about what you do like what you don't like if you learn something about

00:11:00.320 yourself if you have an experience it's not a waste of time like right sorry that's plot you

00:11:06.080 need plot you're not gonna get to the you you need the plot i this is so important i think

00:11:13.100 sometimes we get into this feeling that we all need to be on the so-called relationship escalator

00:11:19.740 like every relationship like okay like i already think it's great within a month and then within

00:11:25.520 three months i'm like hmm this is serious and then like within a year it's talk for engagement

00:11:31.320 and then marriage and then kids and all the way up right and not every relationship has to serve

00:11:36.980 that function in your life and i actually think i see this reality much more clearly with people

00:11:43.560 who are dating in midlife yeah they're not because they're like we can see what happens

00:11:49.340 like whatever like maybe you're just a person i'm spending time with for a while yeah i think i think

00:11:54.920 of dating in my 20s like even dating in college um and some of this is like learned purity culture

00:12:01.580 of you know growing up but it's like this idea of like okay I'm dating for marriage like yeah is it

00:12:09.440 like every date it's like is this a husband is this a husband are you a husband is this a husband

00:12:14.880 and now that I'm in my mid-30s I'm a little bit like marriage babies all that sounds great but

00:12:19.980 more than anything I want to date for love like I don't know I just find someone you want to ride

00:12:24.680 off in the sunset with on a horse on the beach and like decide what comes next after you finish

00:12:31.080 riding off into the sunset I wonder how much of this pressure also this feeling too of like

00:12:37.080 every date or every relationship has to be like the first step on the relationship escalator

00:12:41.860 also stems from many, not all, many women feeling like there is a limited time period that they can

00:12:50.500 have children. It's like, this is the time where I got to get started. And if I'm not started by

00:12:55.800 then. And that, like for me, in order to take pressure off of that, like how do you take some

00:13:01.960 of that, like release the valve a little bit? There are a lot of things and some of them cost

00:13:06.880 money, like freezing your eggs or something like that. But like, that's part of the reason that it

00:13:11.360 feels like such an intense disconnect oh yeah one thing that i'll do sometimes i'll google

00:13:16.320 celebrities that had kids later in life and i'll just be like yeah oh holly bear was 41 like so

00:13:22.700 and so was 37 uh janet jackson very rich woman she was in her 50s though and you know not everyone

00:13:28.640 wants to do that but it's just realizing like okay there are all types of ways to come to this

00:13:33.720 or thinking like if motherhood if if parenthood is something that you truly desire like what are

00:13:38.820 the different ways that can happen. Like, of course, adoption, fostering, there's that. But

00:13:43.440 like, is there a way you can mentor? Are there some children you can take? Like what I think

00:13:48.300 sometimes when we think of parenthood, what we actually desire is we have the desire to nurture

00:13:53.140 someone. Yeah. And that can look a lot of different ways. I think we have to stop limiting

00:13:59.580 ourselves and let our imagination and maybe that's cope. Maybe that's me coping, but I'm okay with

00:14:05.540 cope do you remember this is kind of like intertwined with purity culture but there was

00:14:10.660 this messaging that was definitely coming to me in my like late teens of the way that a boy will

00:14:16.640 come to you is when you love yourself first oh my gosh and that's even beyond purity culture

00:14:21.520 like the amount of times i'm sure so many people listening are like i want to be with someone i 0.96

00:14:27.560 want to find love and people the response is love yourself and it's like girl i will kick you in the

00:14:34.220 throat get away from like but at the same time I also like I there's I'm just thinking about like

00:14:40.060 with the desire to like I gotta find someone so I can have a kid like a friend of mine

00:14:46.320 so wanted to have a kid had had horrible dating experiences that like the clock was ticking down

00:14:53.160 she was in her late 30s going into her early 40s and was like I'm just gonna have this kid on my

00:14:59.020 own I'm gonna like I've built a really strong network I'm gonna have a kid on my own and as

00:15:03.380 soon as she makes that decision like to start thinking about like looking for sperm donors and

00:15:07.620 that sort of thing that's when she meets the guy that becomes the perfect guy yeah like you know 0.60

00:15:13.400 like it was like she had to like take that pressure off of herself that yeah i'm gonna have a baby no

00:15:19.220 matter what and then the relationship fell into place does that make sense no it totally does and

00:15:23.900 i think it's this fine balance because on one hand if the reason you're seeking romantic love

00:15:31.040 is to be like I need to be fulfilled it's not going to do it like it is going to have to

00:15:36.280 unfortunately come from inside and I know it's like boo hiss but that is true at the same time

00:15:42.940 it's okay to have that desire for a relationship and that desire for a relationship doesn't have

00:15:49.820 to be the be all and end all and I think on the other side because I know I go through this where

00:15:54.320 it's just like but why do I want this shouldn't I I be enough you yuck like why am you and it's

00:15:59.940 like no it's okay to want companionship it's okay to want love is you just like don't want it to

00:16:05.200 define you and that's a hard balance to strike I think we can be very all or nothing when it comes

00:16:10.720 to that totally and I think especially like ambitious women oh yeah really feel that how do

00:16:18.520 I be enough for myself but also like admit this this part that I want companionship that I want 1.00

00:16:23.480 a partner. It's really hard. Today's episode is sponsored by ZocDoc. Sometimes finding the right

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00:20:23.500 Let's talk about a specific method of dating that came up in so many questions.

00:20:30.880 This question comes from Jennifer and Melody's going to read it.

00:20:34.240 I have been following Jenny Young's Burnt Haystack substack and dating strategy, which is ultimately based on the fact that as a cisgender heterosexual woman, the odds are never in your favor.

00:20:45.040 There's simply a depressing lack of dateable, decent men on the dating apps.

00:20:49.660 My question is, do men think about strategies to quote unquote beat the dating apps in a similar way?

00:20:55.700 Or because the odds are always in their favor, do they have the luxury of not having to?

00:21:00.620 Okay, so Burnt Haystack, do you know about this?

00:21:02.860 No, tell me all about it.

00:21:04.740 All right.

00:21:05.120 So this is, I went down a big, a big rabbit hole.

00:21:07.980 So this woman, Jenny Young, she has a PhD.

00:21:12.220 She's a professor.

00:21:13.240 She is in, I believe her fifties.

00:21:15.520 And after lots of frustrating experiences with the apps, she did what a lot of, this

00:21:21.140 is like such, this is so something I would have done.

00:21:23.760 It's like, I'm going to take my like tools of analysis and I'm going to apply them to

00:21:28.720 what i'm seeing happen on the dating apps in terms of like how communication works all that sort of

00:21:35.240 thing and what she came up with is this idea that you have to burn the haystack down in order to 0.57

00:21:41.380 find the needle in the haystack and what she means by that is she has like aggressive strategies

00:21:46.800 in terms of not engaging in conversations with essentially like trifling men um and that means

00:21:55.140 like if someone tries to like never spend time arguing on an app oh yeah no it's like if you

00:22:02.480 swipe past someone and like in there just totally not like who like she blocks all the time to try

00:22:09.220 to gamify the app basically because the more if you actually block someone then they won't appear

00:22:14.680 again for you to swipe through and waste your time um someone who like can't set up a date within two

00:22:20.860 weeks block and like again not just like ghost but actually block them and so you're essentially

00:22:27.320 whittling down again the haystack in order to like arrive at a set of dateable decent men

00:22:35.280 and so I'm curious like I know you did this episode with the dating coach for men like does

00:22:41.100 how are the strategies different like what do you see like when even when I describe this strategy

00:22:47.660 do to you which is incredibly popular there's a book coming out there's a facebook community with

00:22:52.140 like hundreds of thousands of members what do you what do you see yeah okay men do have strategies

00:22:58.920 they may not be the exact same strategies women are employing but they do have strategies also

00:23:04.340 because from men okay i'm gonna say something that my therapist has to say to me all the time

00:23:11.180 yeah men are people too um they don't always act like it but they are they are they they really

00:23:20.560 are and especially talking to my guy friends a lot of what they like yes we are uh sifting through

00:23:30.440 i think my therapist also once described it as not dating in general but online dating apps you

00:23:36.920 need to treat it like you are going to tj maxx you are sifting through you're gonna find gyms

00:23:42.440 in there but there's some stuff where it's like i don't want that i do not want that either i do

00:23:47.520 not want that those pants are cute i'll give those a try like you're sifting through everyone

00:23:52.920 in a way that we have never had to sift through like we are running into people where in any other

00:23:57.820 circumstance we would not run into so it does make sense right to kind of like go for it and men

00:24:03.160 experience the same but looking at my guy friends abs versus like my girlfriends or like my own when

00:24:11.080 I'm on them we do get quite a few more likes than they do so like I feel like for us the odds are

00:24:24.380 good but the goods are odd and for men their odds are not as great but when they do have a connection

00:24:32.980 they're usually getting better quality.

00:24:35.400 Okay, so, but I do think we should address

00:24:37.360 why finding a good man can feel like

00:24:40.980 finding a needle in a haystack.

00:24:43.120 Like, why is that feeling there in the first place?

00:24:45.220 Yeah, I think what it is,

00:24:46.320 is our socialization has not caught up with society.

00:24:50.280 You know, I think of when my mother came up

00:24:53.820 or when my grandmother came up.

00:24:55.200 Like, when my mom was born, 0.97

00:24:56.880 it was not legal for a woman to have her own bank account.

00:25:00.460 Now it is, and not only do we have our own bank accounts,

00:25:02.980 But we're, you know, earning good money. We're now more educated than men. And I think we're in this place now where for so long we have been socialized and men have been socialized to be like, OK, what a woman needs is a man, what she needs is a provider.

00:25:19.820 And now we're in this place where it's like, actually, it's not a need, it's a desire. And needing someone and desiring someone, those are going to be two very different skills. Like one is going to be like, I have a job and I show up and I'm here. And the other is I'm kind and I'm loving and I contribute in this emotional way.

00:25:43.340 And I think both men and women are catching up to this idea of desire versus need.

00:25:50.900 Yeah, it makes me think of like, there was a point in our not too recent past when a woman without a husband had no social value, right?

00:26:00.020 Like they were shunned from society.

00:26:02.300 And like you said, we have not changed the way that we think about like standards and that sort of thing that much since then.

00:26:10.720 like it's not enough just to be someone who can marry me and make me like a an upright woman or

00:26:17.040 whatever a respectable woman there have to be other understandings as well exactly so we're

00:26:22.200 approaching this question as straight people i think like if you are a person who's queer or

00:26:27.100 who's looking for a has anything that limits your pool or diminishes your pool makes your pool

00:26:33.260 smaller in some way i think about how much harder it gets like and we're going to talk about this

00:26:38.540 later with people dating in smaller towns but like when the pool gets smaller that like you

00:26:44.680 can't burn your if you burn your haystack down it's not like you're gonna find the needle you're

00:26:48.380 just gonna have a burnt haystack yeah yeah and I think I think the key may be for us to get off

00:26:56.240 the apps you guys not permanently but like I think I think we have to touch grass because

00:27:03.780 just the way we sort of like swipe through analyze versus in person it's like oh that person has a

00:27:10.620 kind eyes they smell good sure i'll give them my number versus like on an app and you're just

00:27:16.040 reading through it doesn't hit the same i think we have to hit the yeah and there are so many

00:27:21.000 things that like because of the way that someone texts like if someone uses a incorrect piece of

00:27:28.380 grammar I'm like nope never could be with them which is bullshit yeah right like like people I

00:27:34.580 could be with all sorts of people who use incorrect grammar but like I'm using that sorting mechanism

00:27:39.340 which is of course also like a class-based mechanism like oh there's so many things

00:27:45.580 happening that are preventing you from even like thinking about someone in a certain way

00:27:49.960 yeah it's it's so fascinating like um I'm running into more whenever I'm in a setting and I think

00:27:56.580 like oh these seem like nice guys to date most of the time they're like I don't use apps I approach

00:28:01.860 women in real life I I'm just like oh I think it could also be sort of like a self-selecting thing

00:28:09.340 I don't know I'm a I'm a big proponent I think we have to connect IRL I think that's the key yeah

00:28:14.940 I feel like we're not answering this question but this is leading us down an interesting

00:28:20.480 avenue of exploration it does feel you know we talked about the fear of getting out there and

00:28:27.140 like discomfort of being in these situations but the apps I think in a really important way

00:28:34.160 do feel safer and I'm talking about like physical safety yeah right then like fending off annoying

00:28:42.540 guys in a bar yeah yeah yeah yeah yes yes yes and and I feel like that it changes as you age

00:28:50.320 Like, I don't think I would have the same experience of fending off men now.

00:28:55.300 But, like, when you're in your 20s, there is this feeling of, like, sometimes there is, like, a menace to the way that people approach it.

00:29:03.180 And there's also, there is menace on the apps, of course, but you can block that person.

00:29:08.980 Yeah.

00:29:09.560 Yeah, exactly.

00:29:10.720 Like, and I mean, that's part of it.

00:29:13.440 That's the risk. 1.00

00:29:14.180 And I think women are put at a disadvantage when it comes to, like, that physical risk.

00:29:18.780 I think men I don't know men I think also could do more to take precautions because anyone who's

00:29:25.820 any woman straight woman who's been on Apple have a guy be like oh come over right now and it's like

00:29:29.980 I could be setting you up to rob you why are you like I could walk out of here with your television

00:29:35.960 do not I'm a stranger um but yeah I like and I get it like the internet is now it's it's there

00:29:44.660 our levels yeah yeah okay this next question also invokes the burnt haystack method but it

00:29:51.060 raises a different question let's hear from julie i stumbled onto the burnt haystack dating method

00:29:57.260 and even though i've given up dating i found the rhetorical analysis fascinating there's a lot of

00:30:03.260 pushback and complaining about women being too picky or too demanding in relationships several

00:30:09.280 conservative friends have brought it up spontaneously but specifically said that

00:30:13.380 women are demanding men over six feet. I've never heard a woman say that. I hear about demanding 0.94

00:30:19.200 respect, empathy, honesty, etc. Can you talk about the way women having standards is twisted and 1.00

00:30:26.240 trivialized? And why right-wing men lie about their beliefs? Do they simply know women want

00:30:32.260 nothing to do with their ideology? Or do they get a kick out of taming and trapping, quote, uppity, 1.00

00:30:37.960 unquote women okay I love how like the second part of this question kind of comes out of left

00:30:43.900 field it's like what like I think this person has had experiences oh yeah with right-wing men

00:30:51.140 lying about their beliefs and then you get like two weeks into relationship and they're like oh

00:30:55.720 yeah by the way I voted for Trump or whatever right okay Julie don't beat me up um but I have

00:31:04.560 encountered women who say they only want to date men over six feet or like I I do know not a 0.61

00:31:12.360 significant amount of women who are like gotta be six feet gotta make six figures gotta be xyz

00:31:17.820 right right I think with all genders the negativity floats to the top it's sort of that thing of like 0.99

00:31:25.760 how you remember a negative experience more than a positive one um and so like it is weird 1.00

00:31:32.400 on a lot of sides now I think an issue we run into a lot with dating is that like people go

00:31:39.560 after the people who are not compatible with them like you get a lot of pick me's who are after men

00:31:46.660 who are not into pick me's and you get a lot of men who want to quote unquote tame women and it's

00:31:52.580 just like that's not who's attainable the pick me's and like the men who want pick me's need to

00:31:58.220 actually align with one another and for some reason they go after the group that is not for

00:32:03.740 them I think that's a lot of what we're seeing yeah yeah I think that's a lot of what we're seeing

00:32:08.540 uh I had Adi Cornish on the podcast a couple weeks ago to talk about this current season

00:32:14.540 of Love is Blind and one thing that she very astutely noted about this season in particular

00:32:19.660 but about all of the seasons is that there is this way that you can like watch women

00:32:26.620 whose identity off the show you know like these particulars about like how they've run their 0.97

00:32:31.840 lives like their ambitions all these sorts of things and then you watch them performing

00:32:36.520 like they're inferring a way that these men want them to be and they're performing that

00:32:44.200 especially in the pods when like it's pick me right it's like i am the person who you should

00:32:52.500 pick and then they once they get out of the pods and they're no longer like it's no longer possible

00:32:58.340 to continue performing that way because obviously like you're you're an embodied person now and you

00:33:05.600 like go home with the person you like try to live with the person like it falls apart

00:33:09.380 and that it smashes together right like the relationship falls apart in that moment because

00:33:15.080 the performance falls apart yeah the advice my mother has always given me is like and this

00:33:22.400 you know doesn't apply to everyone she's always like always date for someone at least a year

00:33:26.960 before you start like being like okay we're gonna get married because yeah you need to see them in

00:33:31.420 all seasons but also after years when it starts to get real we're like the facade and the performance

00:33:37.080 of the oh baby like oh you're so great oh I'm gonna do that's when it starts to fall apart and

00:33:44.060 I think there is a performance aspect to every dating situation but I think even more now like

00:33:50.940 i don't know i see all these things and i i try to clean my algorithm of them but it's like oh

00:33:57.900 step into your femininity because that's what's going to attract a man or like oh the masculinity

00:34:02.820 the da da da and i think um i think a lot of people play into that and because they're playing

00:34:10.120 into that they're trying to force the women and men they are actually attracted to into being that

00:34:15.480 Like, you know, if you're like, I want a woman who's going to like submit in this particular way and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. 0.92

00:34:24.760 It's like, OK, we'll find that. 1.00

00:34:27.020 And it's like, no, I want a baddie actually, though.

00:34:29.540 Like, can I force the baddie to be that?

00:34:31.640 And it's like, you can't force the baddie to be that.

00:34:34.040 You're either going to have to take the baddie as she is or not be with a baddie. 0.52

00:34:37.520 right and i think there is this this women often are told that like you can socialize a man to

00:34:45.980 become the man that you want oh yeah yeah we're definitely told that but i think as we get older

00:34:52.420 i'm like if a man tells you something believe him it is read it whatever it says on the package and

00:34:58.860 what it is people can change yeah people can change but don't bet on that whatever it's exactly what

00:35:05.540 it says on the tin that man is how he is you you can change haircuts you can change you buy that

00:35:11.540 man a nice sweater now that you can definitely do but when it comes to personality girl that's

00:35:17.320 that man that is that man do you think what about this part about standards versus pickiness

00:35:23.780 how do you parse that i think standards is more of a character thing like someone who's kind

00:35:31.980 someone who's smart someone who's funny like to me that's standards I think pickiness can be like

00:35:39.220 oh I don't like their shoes like I don't know do you ever watch those pop the balloon videos

00:35:44.180 no no no tell me oh my gosh ah I'm so glad I get to introduce you to this so pop the balloon it's

00:35:51.400 basically this YouTube series where a single person walks in and lined up are people that

00:35:59.760 they could potentially date they do it for queer people straight people all types of ages and the

00:36:05.100 people that they could potentially date have balloons and if something happens where they're

00:36:10.040 like i don't want to date that person they pop the balloon and then the host goes up to them and

00:36:14.660 says why did you pop your balloon um and then once the host says why did you pop your balloon the

00:36:20.840 person who is like who had the balloon popped on them can also respond and so you know sometimes

00:36:28.740 the balloon will be popped because it's like oh like there's it's actually quite funny like it

00:36:34.580 went viral this one was like I want a man of God one guy was like no pop sorry that's not me

00:36:39.320 but other times like the balloon will pop and people were like why's your balloon pop and it's

00:36:43.640 like I didn't like his shirt and then it becomes like they end up just playing the dozens on each

00:36:48.300 other and it's crazy and I feel like the oh I didn't like his shirt that is pickiness the oh

00:36:56.320 a man of God is a standard. Like that's the difference. Totally. And that's an ideological

00:37:02.880 standard, too. Like that's something you're not going to change. Yeah. Like someone will be like,

00:37:07.380 oh, well, I can make him come to Jesus. Like, no, you can't. That man does not want to go to church.

00:37:12.700 But he does not want to go to church. And you're always going to be harassing him to go to church.

00:37:17.520 Yeah. OK. That's a really good explanation. This next question comes from a specific element of

00:37:22.920 dating that has maybe been accelerated by the apps. This comes from Meg. My question is about

00:37:28.360 how fast things seem to move in terms of informational intimacy. For one thing,

00:37:34.380 because there's often a lot of texting or messaging before the first meetup, I feel like I have to work

00:37:39.480 hard to save some conversational questions that are appropriate for a first or second date so

00:37:44.740 that we're not just getting together and jumping in with something like, so tell me about your

00:37:49.980 mother wound. Similarly, I also feel like there's a lot of pressure to share a lot of details very

00:37:56.080 early on about my kids, my ex, my friends, before we have a chance to build trust and familiarity.

00:38:03.340 Is this me being overly cautious, just a product of the digital dating age?

00:38:08.680 So I think that this is like such an interesting contrast to people who say the apps like are,

00:38:17.260 they're not deep enough like they're too based on the physical or they're too based on first

00:38:22.100 impressions or like sorting according to these various things but i definitely i know what this

00:38:26.580 person is talking oh yeah oh yeah like it's just this plunge into like okay tell me everything

00:38:31.940 about you like where did you grow up what was it like when you were in high school

00:38:35.220 that you haven't even met in person yet yeah i think it i don't think you're being overly cautious

00:38:42.120 I think it's okay to be like, can we meet up first?

00:38:45.460 Can we have a beverage?

00:38:46.740 And I think different people will have different standards.

00:38:49.020 Like, I know I like a good, in the parlance of Love Island, I love a good chat.

00:38:54.860 So, like, you know, I want a little text back and forth.

00:38:57.760 I don't want it to be too deep.

00:38:58.780 I want you to be funny.

00:38:59.900 I want to see a meme.

00:39:01.280 That's the vibe.

00:39:02.460 Other people are going to be like, so what's the deal with kids?

00:39:05.740 What's this?

00:39:06.340 What's this?

00:39:07.140 And other people are going to be like, hey, I liked your profile.

00:39:10.580 Want to grab a drink?

00:39:11.360 Like and I think that's another way you find people that you're aligned with.

00:39:16.680 But I do think it can be a lot, a lot, a lot very early.

00:39:20.920 And I don't know.

00:39:23.200 Yeah, it can just be like too much too quickly.

00:39:27.360 And I think that's, again, sort of that optimization where you're like, OK, but do you align and what's the math problem?

00:39:32.400 And I don't know, like my favorite question to ask on a first date is and you have to do it like sort of casually.

00:39:37.800 But I was like, oh, yeah, what brought you to the apps?

00:39:39.600 what are you looking for versus like a so what are you looking for like and you have to I think

00:39:44.420 that's a factor too yeah no that's such a good point I do think like keep it at whatever your

00:39:50.220 level you're comfortable with it's a lot easier for people to just keep texting right because

00:39:56.200 it's like a dopamine hit of like oh this person I'm curious about is texting me I can respond in

00:40:01.380 whatever careful way that I want and I don't have to meet them in person yet so it's easy to stay

00:40:06.920 there and to keep having those conversations when, like, take that jump and meet them in person.

00:40:12.920 Yeah. Just, like, grab that coffee, grab that drink, get an app.

00:40:17.980 We should also, at this point, I think, emphasize that, like, this is not a binary between

00:40:23.200 texting and meeting up in person at a bar. Like, the phone exists. The phone is a magical tool,

00:40:29.740 not just for texting. Like, the phone voices can be really important. Or Zoom, right?

00:40:34.660 Yeah, I think we forget that part. Like, you can pick up the phone, you can FaceTime, you can, I mean, I like to move on to like, let's meet in a public place. But like, it's totally reasonable to be like, I want to talk on the phone first. I want to see the vibe. I want to do a FaceTime call. I think that's perfectly reasonable.

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00:44:03.720 next two questions we're going to read together they're about location i'm so interested in this

00:44:10.000 the first one comes from nina the apps have definitely made dating culture worse but how

00:44:14.860 does the metro area you live in influence your dating success whatever success really means

00:44:20.760 i've been out of the dating game for a long time seven years but did meet my last partner on an app

00:44:27.200 so it's not foreign to me i just moved from the place i'd been living for 10 plus years

00:44:31.960 back near my hometown and it feels like it's actually slim pickings. I could have thrown a

00:44:37.960 rock out my window and hit five of my type walking by where I was living before, but now it seems hard 1.00

00:44:43.680 to find anybody in that realm, which is quite literally just are they taller than me and not

00:44:50.680 obsessed beyond all belief with the gym. Like even in the outside world, let alone an app. Both places

00:44:55.980 are on the west coast relatively similar politics and my new slash old home but current home has

00:45:03.360 many times the population of the former one can you kill your dating odds based just on where you

00:45:08.740 are or are there really some options for anyone with reasonable expectations in any highly populated

00:45:14.220 area so i should just say from that question i'm inferring that she's in like at least a mid-sized

00:45:19.620 city okay second question comes from naomi i'm 41 and have been single and dating most of my life

00:45:25.320 it feels like now at this age there is a real imbalance with the genders like there are far

00:45:30.700 more hetero women out there than men women always seem to be expected to quote unquote settle are

00:45:36.540 there really more women than men in most cities how no uh okay okay so let's talk about location

00:45:48.600 i love this question because we also got a bunch that we couldn't include that were like

00:45:53.740 oh my gosh i live in wyoming what the fuck am i gonna do every every single picture is of a guy

00:46:01.000 on his four-wheeler and here's what i'll say is someone from a place like wyoming it's like 0.97

00:46:07.320 some of those guys on their four-wheeler what they're doing is they're they don't want to

00:46:11.160 distinguish themselves from other guys like they're not trying to perform a different sort

00:46:14.460 of identity they've grown up there like this is the dominant form of masculinity but at the same

00:46:19.620 time they're interesting there there is like an interesting dude there you know yeah so you have

00:46:25.080 to get past your own the ways that you've been socialized to think of like what does an interesting

00:46:29.740 dude look like that's a good point that's a really good point like judging books by their covers so

00:46:34.880 on and so forth because you know you see that guy holding a fish and it's like okay but maybe if you

00:46:40.840 go out to eat you go out and you're like have a nice time you're like oh he's a lot more than

00:46:46.200 that fish he's holding. Totally. Totally. And like, I will just, I like going fishing.

00:46:54.720 What do you think about like on more of the midsize city level, have you dated like different

00:47:03.300 places? Like, do you have any experience with that? So I have spent my entire adult life in DC.

00:47:08.960 I moved here when I was 19 and no, I was 18. Wow. Not me. Wow. Yeah. I moved here for college

00:47:15.700 and I will say I grew up in Albuquerque New Mexico not a large black population 0.70

00:47:19.680 you know I've always been like I want to partner with someone preferably a black man

00:47:23.720 and honestly I was like 15 a 15 year old sophomore in high school and I had the sense then where I

00:47:30.880 was like oh to have the social life and dating life I want I need to leave Albuquerque and that's

00:47:36.300 when I was like well I'm going to an HBCU and a big city and it's like yeah I sometimes sometimes

00:47:42.920 you gotta make that move for like were you like were you like oh my gosh my options yeah I was a

00:47:49.880 little bit like I'm not this is not my audience like I this is not this is not the audience for

00:47:57.940 me but I know where my audience does exist let me go find my audience and I will tell you I did

00:48:04.560 indeed find my audience I did I totally did that too I mean I went to a high school where

00:48:12.040 like i didn't get asked to prom people called me a ball buster because i like raised my hand in

00:48:17.860 class yeah the nothing that should be unfamiliar to anyone who's listened to this podcast but then

00:48:22.880 i went to like a college where like all the girls were smart and i was like oh i get it like the this

00:48:30.060 is where i needed to be someplace where like my type of person wasn't automatically excluded

00:48:35.500 for whatever reason exactly so it was like okay all right we're in business so it may be a thing

00:48:41.880 of finding your audience that could be swiping in a different city like how willing are you to do

00:48:48.920 like long distance and figure out later maybe it's like okay what are the activities i am interested

00:48:54.540 in like i love trivia i love photography i love blah blah blah i need to find wherever that is

00:49:01.140 in either this city or the next and just like put myself there because i do believe and this is

00:49:06.740 something i also say all the time the love of your life could be one or two homeboys away

00:49:11.000 like it may not be that guy but it may be his friend or his friend's friend and there's talk

00:49:17.020 to a boomer and that is probably how their love story went like don't don't be ashamed of it um

00:49:23.440 yeah so i interviewed this woman for um for my book about friendship and she lives in a co-housing

00:49:30.700 house in san francisco and part of the reason that she loves living there is because she was

00:49:37.340 single when she moved in and she was like this is the number one way that i am going to make

00:49:42.540 find a boyfriend oh yeah because i i have nine roommates who have friends who have friends

00:49:48.320 and like this is a great way for me to actually find the person and that's how she found her

00:49:52.860 boyfriend and she also i should say that was not the only reason she loves living with other people

00:49:56.960 but like connecting yourself to some sort of connecting like a wheel that then connects you

00:50:02.060 to other people is a really effective way yeah and sometimes just a change of scenery like i'm

00:50:06.640 not saying oh move especially just to find love but i do have a friend who was like you know i'm

00:50:12.100 gonna move back home a little bit get on top of my student loan debt etc ended up meeting her

00:50:16.760 husband and i'm like oh dang you're not coming back to dc now girl she's like no i'm so sorry

00:50:20.780 but i was like all right or like i have another friend who was like i'm gonna swipe on guys in

00:50:27.760 new york's was swiping on guys in new york had a match and then he ended up being like the friend

00:50:33.440 of a friend and was in D.C. one weekend and they both were like in the same group.

00:50:37.180 And it was like, oh, we were just talking on the apps.

00:50:42.040 That's crazy.

00:50:43.580 Do you have any difficulty in D.C.?

00:50:45.900 There's just a lot of people who are moving in and out because of the way that the city

00:50:49.360 works.

00:50:49.680 Do you have any difficulty with like, I don't know if this person is going to be here in

00:50:53.640 a year?

00:50:54.180 Oh, that's definitely it.

00:50:55.020 I think for people who are more traditional, more like serious, more like relationship

00:51:00.040 escalator it can be a thing of okay what are you doing what's actually happening here um i think

00:51:06.420 one thing that's helpful is when it comes to dc kind of like it it is very transient but get that

00:51:13.020 guy fresh off the plane you know i'm like he just touched down at dca like that's when to grab him

00:51:18.800 because they have not been infected by the city yet like they are not like like get them get them

00:51:25.340 fresh get them get them hot off the plane if you live and they're not going anywhere for at least

00:51:30.560 like i don't know at least a year if not two exactly what about this okay i first before i 0.99

00:51:36.220 get to the question of if there are more women than men i am sympathetic to people whose jobs

00:51:40.820 take them to a specific locale and they have very little control over whether they can move there

00:51:44.920 like i worked in a town of 30 000 in rural washington i had queer colleagues who were like 0.55

00:51:52.380 there is nothing yeah were you reporting there no i was a professor there and so like they they

00:52:00.500 would talk to people who are prospective professors coming and they'd say like real talk

00:52:05.560 it's hard to not be partnered yeah especially as a queer person if you're coming here because

00:52:12.020 you will need to almost certainly look outside of like our city boundaries in order to find a

00:52:18.380 partner so like when the pool really does get limited it can be hard but that also you know

00:52:24.880 there will maybe there's another person who came to that school or to that job like there might be

00:52:30.880 someone yeah or i think of friends who are reporters especially tv and they're they're

00:52:37.980 moving to the middle of nowhere that first job out of college and it's hard but also i think that's

00:52:43.660 when things like professional organizations come into play.

00:52:46.240 It's like, okay, no one here,

00:52:48.320 but I knew this guy from NABJ

00:52:50.360 back when we were juniors in college

00:52:52.220 because we did a short course together.

00:52:54.740 What's he up to?

00:52:56.040 Like, oh, he's also in the middle of nowhere somewhere.

00:52:58.940 Like maybe we can coordinate that little time we have off

00:53:02.480 because we're both working the holidays

00:53:04.120 and we can figure it out.

00:53:07.320 Yeah, and have a lot in common

00:53:08.700 in terms of the struggles of that experience.

00:53:11.060 Like there's a huge relatability component there.

00:53:13.660 OK, what about the idea that there are more women age 41 on the apps than there are men? 0.96

00:53:20.200 I do think there are more women on the apps.

00:53:22.260 Oh, I think. OK, so I think when it comes to the numbers game, a lot of things are at play because I saw this question.

00:53:29.400 I was like, are there more women than men on Earth?

00:53:32.880 And the answer is no, there are technically more men than women on Earth.

00:53:36.680 It's about I mean, it's about 50 50. 0.99

00:53:38.860 and like with cities professional cities maybe a little more women than men but it's like oh

00:53:44.600 55 percent women like that's the most it will be but I will say I went to Howard and it is a place

00:53:54.140 where you know historically black college and automatically there are more women than men on 0.89

00:53:59.840 college campuses when like the race factor comes in there are so many more black women

00:54:04.140 than men on campuses I think like the idea if you included the grad schools it was more even

00:54:12.820 if you were just talking undergrad it was not those boys were having the time of their lives

00:54:19.540 they were running through those dorm rooms it was sicko behavior and it even it's like it's like

00:54:26.180 being a woman in rural Alaska yes again the odds are good but the goods they can be odd

00:54:32.000 um and so i i think that's a factor too i think sometimes when we're talking about

00:54:36.980 the ratio we're probably thinking like oh socioeconomic status like education like and

00:54:43.580 it's i think it's perfectly fine to want to have someone who matches with you on those things

00:54:47.060 but i think that's where the number aspect comes into play like i know apparently there's lots of

00:54:53.940 men in denver they call it minver and i was actually talking to some friends about this i

00:54:58.640 was like what's the black equivalent of denver where what is the city you go to and it's just

00:55:03.220 black men everywhere and they're like girl i don't think that exists i think you're in it you're in 0.81

00:55:07.280 dc and it's like yeah yeah okay right yeah yeah no i think that that's true too it's so much is 0.60

00:55:14.960 based on perception it's like are there as many men that i feel are someone that i would match

00:55:20.660 with yeah but i also like there's something about what happens with divorced men which is often the

00:55:27.620 women who are filling the 40 and 50 year old dating pool and I also they often date younger

00:55:36.620 yeah and I will say I think women should be open to dating younger more my partner is younger than

00:55:41.740 me by not an insignificant amount of time I think it and people say especially like if you're a

00:55:47.060 woman who's like high achieving they say like it's sort of a thing where oh he's younger he's like

00:55:51.740 well of course you'd be doing better than me like you've had more time whatever versus like if you're

00:55:56.240 the same age and you might be doing better it can cause a little bit of and you know it's a

00:56:01.900 maturity thing but i don't know maybe um and granted girl i don't know what your range is but

00:56:07.320 i don't know see what a um 32 year old is up to you they will surprise you they will surprise you 0.97

00:56:14.900 yeah yeah no and the other thing okay so this is hetero women out there than men because i think

00:56:19.800 like if you if you broaden the aperture here like and think about queer men and queer women like

00:56:25.940 i think things change as well um okay so the last question before getting to advice this is so good

00:56:33.540 i'm obsessed with this question it comes from ek my wife was running my sisette sister's hinge

00:56:40.000 account for nine months my wife would manage the matching and witty back and forth and then

00:56:44.880 schedule the first date luckily my wife is hilarious in writing and my sister is hilarious

00:56:49.360 in person so nobody noticed they had a standing sunday evening meeting to talk about the pipeline

00:56:54.560 and walk through the date lineup for the week, names, what the banter is about, etc.

00:56:59.260 When we would tell people about this mutually beneficial arrangement,

00:57:02.160 my wife was having the time of her life,

00:57:04.660 many people thought it was creepy and or disingenuous.

00:57:08.420 I thought this was wild, when they were literally encountering men

00:57:11.700 who were clearly using AI to manage their conversations.

00:57:15.040 Why is it okay for the men to be playing the numbers game and outsourcing the labor, 0.99

00:57:20.060 but when the women do it, it's disingenuous? 0.99

00:57:23.040 And why are we so reticent to look at modern dating for what it really is? 0.66

00:57:27.460 An inside sales pipeline, where you're qualifying leads and booking meetings that ultimately have a low conversion rate of turning into a sale, a.k.a. a person you could actually tolerate for more than a first date.

00:57:38.960 I wonder, is the problem the system itself, or is the problem that the conversion rate seems to be getting lower and lower?

00:57:46.240 And thus, you need to be adding more leads to the top of the funnel, which requires so much labor in actuality.

00:57:53.900 This is such a good question.

00:57:56.080 EK, love it.

00:57:57.360 I love this perspective.

00:57:59.260 I love this.

00:58:00.520 Like, I don't think it's creepy.

00:58:02.560 Do you think it's creepy?

00:58:03.180 No, I think people are like, oh, like, that's hater.

00:58:05.940 That is so hatery.

00:58:07.900 Like, bye, bye.

00:58:09.380 It's working.

00:58:10.500 Mind your business.

00:58:11.800 Like, sorry, you don't like innovation.

00:58:14.120 like sorry sorry we're disruptors like i don't know what to tell you move fast and break things

00:58:20.720 i it reminds me of this conversation that i was having with some people about um

00:58:26.760 about men who use ai and why there is a tendency to outsource more labor to ai especially by men

00:58:35.600 in higher positions this person was talking about her experience in the workplace and she said

00:58:40.320 that men often use, she sees, she observes men using AI to perform tasks that they see as below

00:58:48.400 them. But you can see how a man would be like, I don't want to spend the time to like come up

00:58:58.840 with this response. And so they use, you know, and it's basically AI, it's just coming up with

00:59:05.080 lines yeah yeah I once had a prompt on a dating app where I was like I want you to spit game at

00:59:12.560 me hit me with your best like pickup line no like it was crickets it was and the ones that did it

00:59:19.580 was not good I was like oh people don't know how to spit game anymore and this was a little bit

00:59:23.860 before I have not been on the app since like chat GPT and Claude have become even bigger it did not

00:59:30.760 even cross my mind that someone could be using like I think for writing your profile I can kind

00:59:36.820 of see a little bit like okay make it sparkle make it do the thing etc but like to talk to me

00:59:41.860 that never crossed my mind wow man I feel like AI would make the most like I don't know like

00:59:50.760 Amazon-ish profile like just everything all the time that would not be interesting or like

00:59:57.260 discernible like it would just be like linkedin talk do you know what i mean yeah i think that's

01:00:02.680 a little bit why i'm like oh more in person like i want to go back i mean we're too old for this

01:00:07.560 now but remember like going to the mall and walking around with your friends at the mall

01:00:10.800 and guys would like come up to you and be like oh like can i get your number like at the mall

01:00:14.440 like that's what i want to go back to i want to go back to like people trying to pick you up at

01:00:19.880 the mall not like literally pick you up because that can be a little creepy right but like in a

01:00:23.940 in a social situation like in a public space first of all right because it's safer in this

01:00:30.120 public space not necessarily with alcohol like ruining things right the mall your friends are

01:00:37.200 around to kind of just observe so it's both more high pressure and less you get like there's that

01:00:43.100 frision of like being able to like look across the room yeah like a little eye contact i will say all

01:00:49.260 of this is like very much someone who has not been traumatized by these that's also true that

01:00:53.720 is also true like no and i definitely have had traumatizing experiences that i am like covering

01:00:58.540 up in my brain like my brain is like oh yeah it was amazing to like think that that guy was cute

01:01:03.520 you know when there was so many times when you're like i think that guy is cute and it won't even

01:01:07.260 like please please please willing it to existence just like no doesn't even know i exist like is

01:01:13.120 only looking at the other person um okay so but this part about like the why it's disingenuous

01:01:21.280 or like the reticence to look at modern dating.

01:01:24.520 I'm reminded of this conversation I had

01:01:26.260 with the economist Corinne Lowe

01:01:29.180 about how like the value proposition of marriage

01:01:32.700 has changed so much even in the last 50 years.

01:01:36.760 Like what it used to mean for a woman to get married 0.64

01:01:40.740 in terms of financial security.

01:01:43.640 But our conversations about like why you need to get married

01:01:48.000 have not changed.

01:01:49.100 Yeah, yeah.

01:01:49.960 right so like the value proposition has changed and so i think like in some ways dating is exactly

01:01:56.660 what ek lays out like this is what did they call it um a inside sales pipeline where you're

01:02:03.940 qualifying leads and booking meetings like yes yeah like being partnered is an economic advantage

01:02:10.440 and i think like in many cultures it is still viewed primarily as that but we have papered

01:02:17.020 over all of that with this like you have to find your true match like it's all about love all of

01:02:22.500 these things and it should be both right yeah but you can treat it as one in the in the funnel

01:02:27.400 process yeah it's like you're combining I think especially like the letters seem to be from people

01:02:32.140 like in their mid-30s and up like once you get to that point it's like no I do have an established

01:02:38.020 life there are things I have of course there are things I'm working for but um I forget what I was

01:02:44.100 i think maybe was it that maybe it was the show the later daters did you watch that

01:02:48.780 no no i love it what is it about so it was um michelle obama produced it um and it's this show

01:02:55.380 on netflix that's about people like 55 and up dating and just like the it's very cute it's

01:03:03.760 also just like not the golden bachelor it's not no it's not the golden bachelor it's just like

01:03:07.720 them being set up on dates what's working what's not working let me try this like some people have

01:03:12.600 never been married some people like have like it's just it's it's very cute and it's also just

01:03:18.100 a thing of like oh wow like life just keeps happening yeah yeah and one point that um logan

01:03:26.160 uri who was the expert on the show made was that when you're younger and dating it's you're kind

01:03:33.120 of like a startup we're like oh we're doing this yeah but when you're older you're merging a

01:03:38.300 corporation and you know and you're if you're in your 30s and 40s you're not like oh this major

01:03:42.500 merger we're gonna have to like the get uh the federal trade commission's gonna have to weigh in

01:03:48.400 it's gonna have to but it still is like you're two mid-sized businesses who are pretty established

01:03:52.180 and you're saying all right let's do this like that's not easy it's not and it's okay to take

01:03:56.780 that into account it's okay to want it it's okay to be like this is the thing i want i may actually

01:04:03.840 have to work towards it to a degree and I think there's a lot of shame around that for some reason

01:04:08.460 and and having like difficult conversations about things like I have kids and here's how I want the

01:04:14.840 kids to be part of our life and here's how I would like you to be part of that life or like

01:04:18.880 how are we going to think about assets because like I don't know like even a second relationship

01:04:26.240 like how are we going to divide our income are we going to like how are we going to account for

01:04:30.440 household expenses like all of those things when you refuse to have those conversations it also

01:04:36.000 I think extends to a refusal to have difficult conversations about a lot of other stuff

01:04:40.820 you know what I mean um I just like I think if make it work for you and if making it work for

01:04:50.100 you means having your siblings wife handle you handle your account that's great I think like I

01:04:59.620 think that's fine make her give a toast at the wedding like i know that's what that is like

01:05:04.920 especially if you are able to like keep up and be witty in real life like that is okay like it is

01:05:11.800 art art don't tell them i don't know like it's reveal it like i don't know reveal it a year in

01:05:18.300 yeah just be like okay so she was handling it for me she passed me the alley-oop and i dunked the

01:05:24.800 yeah and like i knew immediately that this was fantastic like you can you can soften it a little

01:05:31.240 bit especially if a if especially if the guy you're talking to is like and i put it in chat

01:05:35.860 gpt like bye i used a real person bye we have one more question and it's for the asking anything

01:05:43.960 it's a classic we're talking about where to actually meet people so this part of the show

01:05:49.400 is just for paid subscribers so if you want to hear it head to patreon.com slash culture study

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01:05:54.440 John Cullen,

01:05:55.000 where can people find you

01:05:56.120 on the internet

01:05:56.520 if they want to hear more from you?

01:05:58.200 Yes.

01:05:58.780 So you can find me

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01:06:21.160 I'm John Cullen Hill.

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01:06:38.360 So funny.

01:06:39.480 Thank you so much for joining me.

01:06:41.180 This was such a pleasure.

01:06:42.860 Thanks for having me.

01:06:46.840 Thanks for listening to the Culture Study Podcast.

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01:07:45.460 Amen.

Culture Study Podcast - January 07, 2026

How Did Dating Get THIS Difficult？

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