Culture Study Podcast - How HGTV Shapes and Refines Our Taste

00:00:01.000 Ben and Aaron Napier, heirs apparent to Chip and Joanna Gaines.

00:00:06.540 I feel like they probably would maybe be mildly insulted to be put as heirs apparent,

00:00:10.920 but they are the faces of HGTV in a way that Chip and Joanna used to be.

00:00:18.240 Can you describe Ben and Aaron?

00:00:21.060 What differentiates them a little bit?

00:00:23.600 Aaron looks like a girl I had a crush on in college.

00:00:26.480 um she really looks like straight out of like 2001 and i don't mean this as like uh like i think

00:00:34.100 this is not negative um and she looks like she goes to my church in 2001 that's yeah yeah she's

00:00:41.760 got a short blonde haircut i think that's it's that's what does it it's not a karen haircut it's

00:00:47.340 just a short shorter um it's just like the bob it's it's like a little bit of a dramatic bob

00:00:53.700 and what does ben look like ben's just like he's he's he's a ruffian you know he's he's like a big

00:01:01.660 dude low voice like i feel like he played linebacker or something i'm sure that he

00:01:06.840 played football someone's gonna correct me on this i'm sure but but a beard and a guy who's

00:01:12.040 who's good with his hands and this is a stark contrast to chip who as melody says and she's

00:01:19.880 completely correct chip has incredible creepy youth pastor energy like it just like bounces

00:01:27.440 off of him yeah um yeah and and that's the culture in which he was raised so it doesn't

00:01:32.800 surprise me but there's more there's like a quiet competence to ben yeah yeah and like joanna is very

00:01:40.760 regimented uh-huh like this is a lady who makes lists right yeah and aaron obviously also very

00:01:50.240 organized but like the southern accent does something for her too there's like a warmth 0.53

00:01:56.020 a white lady warmth right even the difference between the two of them where joanna like she

00:02:03.080 shows you a computerized rendering of what she's going to do and aaron draws a house that she

00:02:11.680 paints with watercolors or something you know like there's just like a different like a softness

00:02:19.180 to to their whole thing like the magnolia the fixer-upper kind of thing has become so corporate

00:02:25.920 that it's like now a thing that i don't want you know i i want the like ben and aaron feel a little

00:02:33.200 more authentic to me and their scope is smaller for sure so like yeah chip and joanna gains is

00:02:39.280 like you could tell from the beginning it's like this is an empire in the making and part of it is

00:02:45.580 again this evangelical energy of like we will make them all converts we will bring them to jesus and

00:02:52.060 also Target. This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson. And I'm Jonathan

00:03:03.380 Menjivar. I host a podcast called Classy. It's so good. It's one of my faves. Thank you. So

00:03:09.560 usually with this show, Melody and I come up with like a topic that we feel like we want to talk

00:03:15.600 about, and then we figure out the guest. This time we were like, we know we want to have Jonathan

00:03:20.440 as a guest why don't we ask Jonathan what he wants to talk about and so you wrote us like a

00:03:27.740 really good paragraph about why you wanted to talk about this so you don't have to talk about

00:03:31.000 verbatim but like what is your interest in home reno shows broadly I mean I think I've been

00:03:37.380 interested in them my whole life so I'm sort of a student of them you know like my mom and I would

00:03:43.800 watch all day long marathons of this old house when i was growing up um and this old house yes

00:03:51.440 very soothing and very like um you know just like i gotta watch somebody fix something you know it's

00:03:58.220 like not too dissimilar the like recently instagram fed me a video of a guy renovating a tonka truck

00:04:05.200 where he took the whole whole thing apart and then like uh like stripped the paint and got

00:04:12.860 new decals and it was all just it was beautiful it's just like i really value and enjoy watching

00:04:19.940 somebody not go out and buy something new and to fix something you know in my house growing up even

00:04:25.300 though we were renters my whole life there really was an understanding of like you've got to know

00:04:31.380 how to fix things really to like keep the landlord happy so that he he doesn't raise the rent yeah

00:04:38.380 Um, it's a good strategy. Yeah. So that there's, there was just a lot in that show that I think

00:04:44.740 was, was really important to me. And then my wife and I bought a house like a little over a decade

00:04:52.800 ago in 2012. And then I just like really, really fell for it. And, and the show I first fell for

00:05:00.020 was rehab addict. Um, it's just the idea that you could buy a piece of crap and make it look good, 0.99

00:05:07.440 you know um that you you could polish a turd you know yes and that it wasn't that hard 0.94

00:05:14.660 i'm not adding rooms i'm just like stripping things away to like she says to like bring a

00:05:22.200 house back to its former glory so i have become obsessed with renovation tiktok but specifically

00:05:29.200 there's this one account of this couple who bought a former hoarder house in oregon it was the you

00:05:37.420 know the classic like buy the the worst house on the block right kind of situation and incredible

00:05:42.680 hoarder situation but a beautiful house underneath and they decided okay we're gonna buy that it's

00:05:49.560 in foreclosure we have to get it into shape in order like they had i don't know exactly how these

00:05:55.220 timelines work if i watch more foreclosure shows i would understand this but like in order for their

00:06:00.160 loan to go they had to appraise it higher right like the appraiser had to come in six months a

00:06:06.100 year later and look at it and be like oh yes it's actually worth what this loan is that we're

00:06:11.720 okay yeah yeah and she has detailed everything and she has this incredibly soft asthma voice

00:06:16.620 that's not annoying but so much of it is just them cleaning cleaning decades of grease off of

00:06:23.740 the cabinets in the kitchen yeah removing the grout all of the tools that they use to do this

00:06:29.260 all of this sort of thing and i think that even though obviously tiktok is monetized in different

00:06:35.000 ways it's a return to this sort of like very meditative style of renovation that typified

00:06:42.920 shows like this old house right and that only worked on public television right like hgtv is

00:06:51.160 this roided up they're like let's take home renovation we understand that people love this 0.98

00:06:57.240 shit but how do we make a lot of money on it yeah yeah and it has to be fast and bombastic in all 0.98

00:07:06.300 these different ways and led by personalities that are not necessarily the personalities of 0.99

00:07:11.260 this old house right yeah yeah yeah so that's my personal interest also owning a house that is from

00:07:18.920 was built in 1904 as like a sea shack that somehow is still standing so same thing you're like wow

00:07:29.020 this is incredible what is this plumbing hobbyist man yeah yeah um so yeah let's let's jump into the

00:07:37.760 questions because i think that's going to allow us to talk about so many different things that

00:07:41.180 we want to talk about okay the first question is about money and i want to hear from crystal here

00:07:47.500 Why do home renovation shows almost never reveal where the budget comes from? Is it a HELOC? Savings? Credit cards? How do people afford these major changes? I've owned a home for six years and every project I've priced out is beyond my reach, even for a two-income household. I wish there was more budget transparency, showing where the money comes from and a breakdown of where it goes.

00:08:12.280 so first of all i want to define something that i didn't know what it was until very recently which

00:08:18.000 is heloc is home equity line of credit so that's when people say um like i'm gonna take out some

00:08:26.100 money from my home that i aren't like money that's already the equity that i've already paid into my

00:08:30.320 home and then you use that money to then renovate your home that's a lock um so what do you think

00:08:38.100 why like why does the money have to be invisible for these shows i mean i think it's part of the

00:08:43.720 appeal of these shows yeah to begin with we're no longer in an era so much of uh like you had

00:08:51.180 this interview with a great academic named rebecca lee potts who called an old form of show the

00:08:57.560 theater of suffering you know and like with home renovation shows that like extreme makeover is is

00:09:03.580 the one that's the most typifies that of like where people have to flog themselves publicly

00:09:09.200 with all their suffering in order to prove that they're worthy of a nice place to live

00:09:13.500 but we're now in an era where like i think even without that there there is this fantasy that

00:09:20.920 someone is gonna swoop in and give you something for nothing you know that you are like they're

00:09:27.900 gonna pull a magic trick on your house they're gonna just like strip away things and like the

00:09:33.140 shiplap or the original floors are going to be there oh the myth of the original floors like

00:09:39.780 are you kidding so so like we had a a bathroom that was hobbyist plumbed sometime in like the

00:09:48.200 1960s like there were pipes going no one knows like they took out the toilet and the plumber

00:09:54.280 looked at it and said like i don't even know how they did that like i've never seen that before

00:09:59.360 you know this is an old plumber and you know what they found underneath the the flooring

00:10:05.040 like lots of vinyl that's what you normally find that's what you find yeah until you get to the

00:10:11.500 plywood like yeah yeah um so i think there's some of that going on but also just like we don't talk

00:10:19.820 about how we afford buying houses in the first place you know and so i think it's just like

00:10:24.560 really a continuation of that um yeah like you'll they these shows they always say like

00:10:31.700 you know your budget was x amount of dollars but they never they're never talking about like

00:10:37.040 did your mom give that to you um no and it like pops up almost like funny money on the screen

00:10:44.580 do you know what i mean like it never feels like oh this is coming out of their bank account

00:10:49.900 it's just like cha-ching ten thousand dollars like there is a show that i got into for a while that

00:10:57.340 i think was on the magnolia network maybe it's still on but it's about um camps what they what

00:11:03.240 people in new england sometimes call cabins um on a lot of them were like on in coastal maine

00:11:09.960 and really the budgets were like twenty five hundred dollars right or three thousand dollars

00:11:16.040 to try to make this three-season cabin livable or insurable in some capacity.

00:11:23.320 And that, to me, was always realistic because I'm like,

00:11:26.080 oh, I can see how someone gets $3,000.

00:11:30.080 But the giant renovations that people are taking out,

00:11:34.280 like I think most of the time it is a HELOC.

00:11:37.300 It is someone taking out some equity from their home

00:11:40.340 and reinvesting it into their home,

00:11:43.160 especially when interest rates were very low.

00:11:45.260 that's what i was going to say is like that's also uh that money doesn't come from anywhere

00:11:50.480 you know like yeah you got to pay it back right yeah with high interest rates it starts to get

00:11:56.420 dangerous at some point you have well because you can treat a heloc like a credit card you can just

00:12:01.540 be like oh there's more here and if the interest rate was as low as it was let's say five years

00:12:07.320 ago yeah different situation than say yeah now the bank actually hands you a credit card and they're

00:12:12.920 like here's your here's your home renovation credit card uh-huh yeah yeah people get offers

00:12:18.800 in the mail saying like college or home renovations or whatever just like or maybe you know i can't

00:12:25.920 remember if the offers i've seen say like medical expenses but yeah yeah it is it's like a it's not

00:12:32.840 just a home renovation fund it's like i'm just i need money fund the other thing is that i there's

00:12:39.480 been a lot of reporting about how some of these construction jobs are actually that they highlight

00:12:45.100 on hgtv and shows like that like that they're pretty botched right like that they're yeah they're

00:12:50.280 very fast and like they cost money but it's money poorly spent right yeah yeah so that's the other

00:12:57.460 thing that they can't talk about no no i think uh like extreme makeover was notorious for that

00:13:03.260 you know where they would do it so fast um also like renovations are so expensive oh my god you

00:13:10.060 know like even i like i have a bathroom that was trash when we moved in here and we like hired the

00:13:16.980 cheap contractor because it was just like this is a small job we don't really need to do anything

00:13:21.820 and like the guy who tiled my shower had never tiled a shower no no it took him like almost a

00:13:31.500 month to do it there are like these big gaps and like the only saving grace I have in the whole

00:13:37.560 thing is just that like I wear glasses and so like I have to take my glasses off when I shower so I

00:13:43.040 don't see it otherwise it would kill me that's the thing like that I mean the the one thing that I

00:13:53.080 think some shows do better than others is show just how much craftsmanship is actually involved

00:13:58.960 in a in a good renovation yeah and i think hometown this is another one of the reasons why

00:14:05.280 i like hometown there's like that guy with the mullet who's really good at floors and tiling

00:14:10.860 and you just know like oh that's the dude who's been around forever you're like i want that dude

00:14:15.040 do you think that good dude could i find that dude how does how do i get him you're like no

00:14:19.000 the only way do you get to that dude in your neighborhood is by a really good general

00:14:25.480 contractor who probably costs a lot of money because he has that dude exactly exactly can

00:14:31.660 also be a lady let's be clear yes next question is about a specific show but i think it's gonna

00:14:36.800 open up a lot of avenues for conversation this is from clinton my best friend and i watch a lot

00:14:42.820 of renovation shows and our current hate watch is down home fab it's filmed in south dakota and i

00:14:47.900 think part of my addiction is because it reminds me of the people i grew up with in high school

00:14:52.120 if i had never left the midwest all of the decisions they make seem so dated and out of

00:14:59.220 touch with current decorating trends it feels like it's filmed in 2012 is south dakota in a

00:15:04.700 time warp are we the only ones who don't understand how this is a current renovation show

00:15:09.180 there's so much happening in this question yeah yeah first of all i i have i had not watched it

00:15:17.320 But then I watched some clips and Sioux Falls.

00:15:21.480 Actually, my aunt lives in Sioux Falls.

00:15:24.400 And it reminds me a lot, too, of where I grew up in terms of like what is considered a really incredible renovation.

00:15:33.040 And I think that there's something like we feel this in the question.

00:15:36.440 We feel some of the like taste culture coming through in this question.

00:15:41.000 For sure.

00:15:42.060 So what do you think is going on here?

00:15:43.840 I mean I think like we are judging our taste all the time and and judging like each other's taste

00:15:53.720 and you know our homes it's like other than our clothes that's like the most obvious way in which

00:16:00.960 that stuff is is shown publicly and I think part of like the idea of of judging and and class

00:16:10.780 shifting and like making it is about leaving your hometown yep and it's aesthetics specifically

00:16:19.320 yes yes yeah i know i'm guilty of this you know i'm from like a really nice suburb of la like

00:16:26.540 there is no reason i needed to look down on that place and i totally did for the longest time you

00:16:34.080 know like i felt like in order to achieve the things i wanted to achieve and be the person i

00:16:39.920 wanted to be i had to leave all of that behind and i think it's enjoyable and really easy to like

00:16:48.380 look at these kinds of things and judge it you know yeah and also that's like that's what reality

00:16:54.500 tv is for like we're going there to be able to like have guilt-free gossiping and judging and

00:17:02.720 the way that we define our taste is oftentimes not by figuring out what we actually like it's

00:17:08.900 By differentiating ourselves from other people's taste, which is not our taste, right?

00:17:14.140 And especially if that taste in our minds is classed in a different way.

00:17:18.020 Right, right.

00:17:18.940 Like, what is bourgeois taste?

00:17:20.380 It is not what is happening on this show.

00:17:22.800 Yeah.

00:17:23.100 Right?

00:17:24.360 Exactly.

00:17:24.840 What is happening on the show?

00:17:26.360 Like, it's not that these people on the show are poor.

00:17:29.680 Like, there's money on this show, for sure.

00:17:33.020 It's not, like, big money, but it's, like, this is middle class money.

00:17:37.260 this is middle class south dakota money and like the house that the hosts live in that it's it's

00:17:43.600 so interesting the host what became a celebrity through um she was on teen mom two i believe

00:17:51.080 and then has now become like her aura is like the girl who wore more makeup than anyone else

00:18:00.240 in your high school class she's a fancy lady yeah yeah um and she wants to be a fancy lady

00:18:07.360 in a smaller town and that is a familiar trope like i know who that person is yeah what are the

00:18:13.420 renovations look like um they look like so it's very there's a lot of like the um neo farmhouse

00:18:20.160 style do you know what i mean like that um that particular style like their house is in the middle

00:18:27.000 of a field and it's neo farmhouse but it's black like she loves black and you can tell that like

00:18:33.940 the landscaping is new like there it feels very a very 2024 version of new money to me yeah yeah

00:18:41.400 melody was just remarking that there's like a ton of gravel going on in the landscaping and

00:18:46.180 like this is so this is classic lewiston idaho like you have a big piece of land you have a big

00:18:52.120 shop like everyone has a big shop um and then you have like some small bushes that you planted

00:18:57.840 you have a lot of sod you have a lot of grass and then you have lots of gravel because that is a

00:19:03.180 cheap and cost-efficient way to avoid weeds right and avoid that labor yeah yeah um i mean melody

00:19:11.480 and there were talking before the show about this idea that like it takes time for trends

00:19:16.600 to trickle down because it seems like everyone is has access to the same trends why would it still

00:19:23.100 take time but i think you still you have people in bigger cities with more money who are defining

00:19:29.980 themselves in their wealth by access to designers who are doing something different yeah and so you

00:19:35.480 have those people who are pushing ahead into different realms of design but then it takes

00:19:40.860 time for that to become popularized enough so that it's something that if you feel like i don't know

00:19:46.760 what i like but i like what i've seen on hgtv right like right like it becomes the aesthetic

00:19:51.420 of hgtv yeah yeah yeah so like moody kitchens feels like it's everywhere right now and different

00:19:58.980 because it's different than shiplap style mid 2010s yeah but like the designers in seattle

00:20:07.020 like expensive expensive new homes in seattle like moody kitchens was 2020 for them right

00:20:13.540 right yeah yeah i feel like i you know i live in new jersey half an hour from manhattan and i feel

00:20:21.100 like even the time it takes things to get from new york city to this kind of fancy suburb i live in

00:20:28.040 like it's it's a couple years absolutely and like that's that's normal that's just how like that's

00:20:34.700 fascinating to me that we live in this instant like we have instant access but still it takes

00:20:40.140 time and so much of that too is availability how much time it takes to actually plan and do a

00:20:45.780 renovation all of those things and where like where we're getting our our tastes from and like

00:20:52.420 what we if we care about being up on stuff this is a great segue to this idea about like monoculture

00:21:00.060 trends, all that sort of thing. This comes from Katie. What impact has the death of a monoculture

00:21:05.360 had on home decor and renovation in the content created and available? We still see ubiquitous

00:21:11.460 trends like the much maligned gray wooden floors and interior barn doors a la HGTV and the Magnolia

00:21:17.580 chokehold, as well as the rise of maximalist interior design. TikTok is rife with these

00:21:23.080 renovation and DIY creators. So are our homes a reflection of the content we consume and what

00:21:29.040 channels we choose to consume it on? And how do these domestic expressions of subculture and

00:21:34.080 mainstream culture intersect with the expressions and interpretations of class signals? Wow,

00:21:40.120 this is an essay prompt for the final in analysis of home design, 400 level class at an

00:21:49.460 undergraduate institution. I hope we pass. What's your initial thought when you think about this?

00:21:56.340 i mean uh one first i just want to shout out amanda mall for her great reporting on great

00:22:01.980 floors um but yeah i mean of course this is tied to class you know i think there is a certain sort

00:22:08.740 of uh rich and fancy person who would say like they're not influenced by home renovation shows

00:22:15.040 at all you know yeah that's like a yeah that yeah that's not classy no no not for sure um

00:22:22.720 yeah but there's like an interesting flip of cultural markers on this stuff right where like

00:22:30.260 historically like rich people were sort of ostentatious and over the top like sort of 0.96

00:22:36.740 whatever ornate curtains and downton abbey ass shit you you're into you know and now like the 0.94

00:22:44.160 richest aesthetic is it's not quite minimalism but it's like it's donald judd furniture you know 0.98

00:22:50.040 or like kim kardashian's knockoff donald john furniture just like craftsmanship but like

00:22:57.700 saying nothing kind of you know and and to be ostentatious at all is is to be like tacky you

00:23:06.280 know yeah the aesthetic that i i think certain people want to go for the aesthetic i want to go

00:23:11.400 for is like now like downstairs downton abbey you know like i when i watched that show that

00:23:18.480 was the thing I always wanted it was like you know like sort of shaker cabinet like

00:23:23.060 like I did nothing to make this happen this is just this is just how it is you know it's just

00:23:30.260 like natural it's just like it's just like a space for me to play and cook in you know yeah

00:23:35.480 I think about too how public our private spaces become vis-a-vis various forms of social media

00:23:42.240 like i don't know i'm thinking about like my grandparents house which once my

00:23:46.900 grandmother decorated it in you know it was a classic post-war suburban house first owner

00:23:54.840 i'm sure bought with assistance from the gi bill and mortgage assistance in some way

00:23:59.400 like it did not change the bedspreads did not change right the like the settee which actually

00:24:06.660 looks there's um and a city on the like cover for your podcast for classy that's bright pink

00:24:14.040 this was not bright pink it was maroon but it did not change like i thought it was like

00:24:19.460 grandparent style i was like when i'm old i'm gonna have a grandparent city that's velvet

00:24:24.760 right that like no one sits in because it's so uncomfortable but it's but it's fancy um but the

00:24:31.300 only way that people saw pictures of their home would be like if they took a snapshot and sent it

00:24:38.100 to someone that was the only way that the private space was made public or if some people came for

00:24:44.180 some reason to the house right and now my clutter is in the backdrop of everything like before i

00:24:50.840 got on this podcast with you which we can see each other's faces because that's how we record

00:24:54.840 i had to like clean my partner's underwear from the back of this area i was like charlie why is

00:25:00.560 your underwear always in the shot like um and one of the things i love about tiktok is seeing

00:25:07.840 normal people's houses yeah in the backdrop of them you know doing story time or doing a dance

00:25:13.320 or whatever yeah but it makes you particularly self-conscious about what your home looks like

00:25:19.160 when put on film in some way yeah for sure for sure yeah i mean like the way you're talking about

00:25:24.920 the like olden days like there used to be the room that was the room that you allowed people to see

00:25:31.520 you know like the i wasn't like you lived in your living room or whatever or which one was it

00:25:37.220 no it was like your um like your sitting room yeah yeah yeah and that's like that's the only

00:25:43.340 room you had to keep clean imagine right right yeah and it was like not you wouldn't no one

00:25:51.780 would see the kitchen are you kidding me and now we're like the kitchen is the central focal point

00:25:56.900 of our lives yeah yeah yeah so both like social media and then also like the pandemic and zoom

00:26:03.140 you know like i it just like the ways in which i was suddenly like oh there is a very strange

00:26:10.580 class thing happening now where i can see into everybody's house oh talk more about that because

00:26:15.660 i think actually there was like some interesting hr things that i saw happening in the immediate

00:26:20.620 aftermath where it was like, people should blur their backgrounds so that you don't see these

00:26:25.960 class signifiers. But what do you remember from them? I mean, I just I work with a lot of people

00:26:30.240 in in their 20s, you know, a lot of people who live in New York City, sharing apartments with

00:26:35.000 roommates. And so like, you know, just knowing like, oh, they're sitting in their living room,

00:26:40.980 and their roommate is at the other end of the room right now, you know, because there's that

00:26:45.620 moment where like they turn and look at the camera you know and you just know that's what's

00:26:50.880 happening um and I know I certainly like as someone who's older and has managed to buy a house

00:26:57.340 like I felt super guilty showing up in meetings um you know especially during the pandemic when

00:27:04.060 you're like everyone just wants a little bit of space yeah yeah yeah and I I like I will confess

00:27:10.520 like I did not like move from room to room.

00:27:14.340 I live in a three bedroom house.

00:27:16.200 It's like, I did not want to show like,

00:27:18.700 oh, I have like three different options

00:27:20.620 of where I can work, you know?

00:27:23.100 I don't have to be in my bedroom.

00:27:25.620 The privilege of options, right?

00:27:27.560 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:27:28.280 No, I sometimes feel self-conscious when, 0.60

00:27:30.660 because I take most Zooms,

00:27:32.300 we don't have like a dedicated office.

00:27:34.620 So I take most Zooms from my bed and I'm like,

00:27:38.760 what does it say that I'm taking a zoom from my bed when you are comfortable in whatever your

00:27:44.700 position is because I'm a freelancer because like I'm the one who asked someone to do an

00:27:50.460 interview with me or whatever like if you feel confident in that position then I don't feel

00:27:54.200 uncomfortable but whenever I don't know I'm talking to like a CEO right or like trying to

00:28:01.280 pitch something I'm like there's just no way and I should learn how to blur my background

00:28:08.220 If I cared more, I should learn how to do that.

00:28:11.900 Yeah, yeah.

00:28:13.120 It does feel like a good fix.

00:28:14.580 Okay, our next question is from Akie, and Melody's going to read it.

00:28:17.720 What's going on with quote-unquote refined aesthetics as a class signifier,

00:28:22.640 particularly since ostentatious, eccentric excess has been associated with wealth and status in the past,

00:28:28.880 and plenty of people still engage in conspicuous consumption now?

00:28:32.460 I'm thinking of the contrast between salt burn and all that burlap from Magnolia with the Gaineses,

00:28:37.840 or crazy rich Asians versus the coastal grandma beach houses that are also lake houses on Lake 0.62

00:28:43.520 Superior. Even the beige moms of TikTok are a significant shift from the colors I expect with

00:28:49.020 early childhood. All right. So this is also related to quiet luxury, which is, you know, a big 0.97

00:28:55.760 TikTok aesthetic trend where it's like, oh, luxury is like having a baseball cap that costs $5,000

00:29:06.740 with no logo on it right cashmere polo yes and even that idea that like wearing a logo is somehow

00:29:16.180 not refined right because it's it's saying that it's saying i'm rich too loudly yeah yeah or i

00:29:24.120 like money too loudly it's saying that and then i think also like there's the ways in which some of

00:29:29.880 that stuff has been adopted by street wear and like by by lower class cultures you know um like

00:29:36.120 ralph lauren used to mean something and then uh like in the 90s it got taken over by

00:29:42.720 black and and poor people you know and so yeah i think there's some of that going on too

00:29:48.860 or even i always think about um the episode that you did about like your gold chain

00:29:53.400 yeah can you talk a little bit about that about how like because gold used to be you know a

00:29:58.960 signifier of refinement yeah yeah um yeah in that episode it's it's sort of about the ways

00:30:06.040 in which race and class intersect and like how for me I came to realize talking to a couple of

00:30:14.780 different people about their own experiences that I was always chasing white culture as as a

00:30:21.280 signifier of class and like the things I felt like I needed to achieve I grew up working class both

00:30:28.560 my parents are immigrants my dad's from El Salvador my mom's originally from Mexico and

00:30:35.000 there is a way in which that I have felt like I couldn't want nice things I like I got made fun of

00:30:43.340 by my family a lot for like being into clothes uh you know my mom calls me a yuppie um

00:30:50.420 she calls me her little yuppie um there's an interview I do in that show where I like I kind

00:30:56.580 of come to learn like oh it's okay for us immigrant and children of immigrants to want

00:31:03.720 nice things like like you can be poor you can be working class and still have nice things you know

00:31:10.620 like the sort of like judgment of people of like why are they spending all that money on a big tv

00:31:17.020 and a new car you know so yeah it's a little corny but in the course of making that episode

00:31:23.580 i ended up pulling out this uh this old gold chain i'm wearing it right now yes um that my dad gave

00:31:31.180 to me um for my middle school graduation um and it's uh it's cheap you know I don't even know like

00:31:40.560 what carrot it is it's it's nothing it's like a rope chain it but like I was just like yeah I'm

00:31:46.180 gonna put this on and it's both like I am allowed to have nice things and also if I'm honest about

00:31:52.400 it like oh but not not nothing too nice like I'm I'm just wearing this this old gold chain from

00:31:58.300 that my dad gave me in middle school like that's part of the story I'm trying to tell too I think

00:32:03.000 right right so like you're not trying you're not trying with the gold chain like you don't

00:32:07.980 have any like airs that like this is really nice yeah no not at all no that's the hard thing though

00:32:14.520 right is that like I think elegance or what what we ascribe with elegance or class it knows without

00:32:23.160 a doubt that it is the best in some way right like there is no anxiety in its presence right

00:32:32.560 right the mansion in saltburn like never once are they like this isn't nice right like or crazy

00:32:40.640 rich agents they're like everything is top of the line whereas everything that donald trump owns

00:32:46.540 yeah it's like I say it's top of the line but I also like I need to say it so much because I

00:32:53.380 actually know it's not yeah and that's sort of like reaching for those aesthetics like

00:32:59.560 my dad lives in a house in the desert he lives like halfway between LA and Las Vegas and California

00:33:08.940 in the high desert totally like working class neighborhood people who were priced out of

00:33:14.440 southern california who moved up and and you know bought houses there and the houses are crazy

00:33:22.040 ostentatious like my dad has pillars inside his house like roman columns and he's like he's a

00:33:30.720 working class guy who who worked at walmart you know like it's it's wild it's really wild does

00:33:39.520 he love his pillars yeah yeah yeah it's great it's a fantastic house it's beautiful you know

00:33:45.160 like he's got a pool like yeah wow yeah no i mean i think that's the thing is that oftentimes

00:33:50.860 you know things like mcmansions or mcmansion how like the different things that are analyzed on

00:33:58.600 that blog like they are completely like they're they're what we think of as aesthetic monstrosities

00:34:05.000 in part because they are taking this pastiche

00:34:09.100 of all of these different elements of nice.

00:34:13.240 So many signifiers of nice,

00:34:15.440 whether that's like gables or columns or brick,

00:34:20.860 river rocks, like maybe all in the same house.

00:34:24.000 Right, right.

00:34:24.760 And I think sometimes like there's an unfair,

00:34:31.020 I don't know if unfair is the right word,

00:34:32.560 But like this idea that somehow like someone wanting something to be nice, like automatically makes it not nice because wanting it, want in any way, desire makes it not nice.

00:34:46.720 It's like the same thing with, with clothing where you can never look like you're trying too hard, you know?

00:34:51.980 Or like a cool girl, right?

00:34:53.280 Like the cool girl is not trying to be cruel.

00:34:55.060 Like she's just, she just is.

00:34:56.780 Yeah.

00:34:57.400 Has to erase.

00:34:58.240 And you're never going to get it.

00:34:59.860 I mean, that's the other thing, too, is that like so much of this, right, is that like it's easy for me to for not me, but like the people with the money with that aesthetic of not having to try at all of just like I have it and you're never going to achieve it.

00:35:15.680 You're going to try. You're going to like you're going to have your house with pillars, you know, you're going to like have your gold toilet or whatever.

00:35:23.680 But like you're always going to fail.

00:35:26.220 right it has to be exclusionary in some way right it can't like climbing the class ladder

00:35:32.100 cannot be as simple as getting more money right you also have to have the taste element

00:35:37.720 in there and that and taste that appearance of effortless taste comes from being born into money

00:35:45.280 usually usually yeah or like a hell of a lot of studying about it yeah just like you have to be

00:35:50.920 like like mr ripley you know what i mean like to be like a psychopath about yeah yeah just like

00:35:59.180 totally dedicated that's the only thing you spend your life doing yeah yeah okay so melody wants us

00:36:04.720 to think a little bit about the hinge of like when wealth had to become subdued and in some ways i

00:36:11.160 actually think that this is like this is not a new phenomenon in any way right like class signifiers

00:36:17.460 and like class not announcing itself like real classiness not announcing itself i think is a

00:36:23.540 very you know even if you go back to like the way that people talked about hollywood stars and like

00:36:28.920 the mansions that the hollywood stars were were building and like a lot of that had to do with

00:36:33.700 the fact that a lot of the early hollywood stars were from working class backgrounds and suddenly

00:36:38.360 had money were racialized in different ways like were sexualized and wanton and all of these

00:36:45.220 different things like they didn't know how to have money yeah um even the phrase new money the

00:36:51.260 the existence of like dividing people with money into two different classes or even like you know

00:36:56.640 the show the gilded age have you watched that i haven't watched it but i know of it but like yeah

00:37:00.960 so basically like it's all about new money in manhattan and how like new money naturalized

00:37:07.120 itself yeah essentially through philanthropy yeah um just just fascinating but i think one of the

00:37:14.080 ways is like so you have the expansion of the middle class which makes some of the like broadens

00:37:19.860 what's accessible in terms of like what you can own and how that communicates something about you

00:37:24.260 post-war and then you also have the massive real estate expansion and the idea that like

00:37:32.960 the houses that we should be building and the credit that was available

00:37:37.400 made something like big mansions and that like the sheer like expanse of property available

00:37:47.200 right right as we like push out into the exurbs we can build bigger and bigger and have like the

00:37:53.200 house from dallas in the 80s you know right yeah and but then there's also i think something to do

00:37:59.740 like like everything in the united states like there's something to do with whiteness and like

00:38:04.300 differentiating types of money like this is what like wealthy white old money does and this is what

00:38:12.540 like second generation immigrant money does kind of thing yeah i'm i'm trying to figure out like

00:38:18.600 when i would i would love to find out the real answer to this like when the like recent shifts

00:38:23.380 happens though because i do feel like there is like you know a sort of lifestyles of the rich

00:38:29.340 famous 80s way of being that was like acceptable and not like totally ostentatious and crazy

00:38:37.160 because i think of something like the main character the leonardo dicaprio character

00:38:41.240 and wolf of wall street tons of money but i think that that was still like all of those

00:38:47.700 real estate and like wall street junk traders like was that classy money i still think that 0.99

00:38:57.100 there was like all of these wasps who were like look at those fuckers like they don't know how 0.99

00:39:01.980 to keep their money yeah yeah yeah that's like the american psycho guy you know yes yeah and there 0.99

00:39:08.960 was like i maybe for us because we don't have real money we internalize those depictions as like

00:39:15.640 that's what money looks like right that's what like donald trump is obviously amongst this too

00:39:19.680 sure sure whereas the real money was like trying to think of what like real old money was doing in

00:39:25.920 like the 80s and 90s yeah we don't even know we like it was so inaccessible

00:39:30.480 we're like i'm sure someone won't write in but like it wasn't it wasn't you know being on a

00:39:39.420 like lifestyles of the rich and famous yeah yeah and some of this i think too gets into the like

00:39:45.200 the rachel sherman the sociologist that you and i have both talked to about just like what is

00:39:51.060 good and bad richness you know yeah and like good is is like not showing it off yes yeah you can

00:39:59.940 have moral wealth if you don't show it off except for when you donate to philanthropy right right

00:40:05.120 i also just think there's like a like we live in a capitalist society which is like okay the system

00:40:13.060 we have and i have certainly benefited from it at times but like it's inherently unfair you know

00:40:20.460 And like, we don't want to acknowledge that. And so I think so much of this, like, quiet luxury, trying to hide all this stuff is just like about like, I just I don't want to have the conversation.

00:40:32.500 yeah like i feel bad about class inequity and i also don't want to do anything yeah exactly

00:40:38.200 um exactly well that yeah i think that's a huge part of it it's a contradiction of capitalism

00:40:43.600 which is that everything around us tells us that we should be trying to

00:40:47.640 make more money and spend that money because that's how capitalism persists right but also

00:40:55.380 there are very there's certain rules about how you should spend that money quote-unquote well

00:41:00.840 yeah it like disciplines us into always being insecure yeah you should spend all of it so

00:41:08.980 and make it look like you are not spending it at all yes exactly yeah okay all right last question

00:41:15.300 just a little bit even more philosophical um and it'll be a nice way for us to wrap up okay this

00:41:20.960 comes from kate what's it like living in a house that looks nothing like your old house or living

00:41:25.820 in towns like Laurel, Mississippi that are so inundated with HDTV renovations. It must be really

00:41:31.900 bizarre to have everything change around you so quickly in a style that is reflective of you and

00:41:36.660 your town, but not truly yours or your communities. I have not had firsthand experience with this,

00:41:43.900 but I have spent a significant amount of time in Waco when I was writing about Chip and Joanna

00:41:48.080 Gaines and talked to a lot of people about the feeling. And, you know, I think that there's a

00:41:53.280 sense that like waco is a small town waco is not a small town like waco is a pretty big town yeah

00:41:58.060 um just because it's not dallas doesn't mean that it's not a big town so you're not like driving

00:42:02.900 through waco and being like there there's a house there's a house there's a house like you have to

00:42:08.760 go on a tour to see all the houses yeah the downtown feels magnolia fied now in part because

00:42:19.120 they have bought so much of it to turn into like their hotel that they made and like the silos are

00:42:24.300 like they're you know the home space for it and like the other reason why it feels like that is

00:42:29.500 because the downtown was largely raised by a hurricane in the 1950s and they built over most

00:42:37.480 of the raised buildings with parking lots and so like the things that you can see in town many like

00:42:43.500 the landmarks some of them historical some of them new many of them are magnolia spaces and i think

00:42:52.180 there is a lot of appreciation for the tourism waco as many people told me was like it was

00:43:00.020 where you went to the bathroom between austin and dallas

00:43:03.220 and now it is absolutely a destination but then also so much of that gentrification so much of

00:43:13.980 that remodeling culture is like actually you know the the line is this river and you can see where

00:43:21.660 they were like oh we're not gonna go there and a lot of that area is places where very few white

00:43:28.100 people live wow yeah so yeah so that's real yeah but i feel like that like i mean it's it's got to

00:43:35.860 be something that's really interesting to hear how it's happening in this company town but it's

00:43:40.940 happening for for all of us like all around i mean there there's like magnolias in target for

00:43:48.180 god's sakes like i i have magnolia towels in my kitchen i have like a great like um like wicker

00:43:56.140 basket because she loves a wicker basket right right right yeah maybe maybe the basket we keep

00:44:00.980 our toilet paper in is a magnolia basket too but like i don't know i feel like we we all see this

00:44:07.680 happening like in our neighborhoods a lot too you know like the number of yellow doors that started

00:44:14.220 popping up in my suburban town like five years ago you know yeah um or like or black houses 0.78

00:44:22.640 which like every time i pass a black house i'm like i'm into it but i know it's gonna look 1.00

00:44:28.480 terrible like tomorrow you know i'm not into all of them sometimes it's like there's like a certain

00:44:36.260 style house it's just like no this one's not meant to be black what are you doing so when i was um

00:44:42.920 in sixth grade i decided i wanted to have my walls painted black and my mom like

00:44:49.020 talk me down to just one wall painted black but like the amount of labor to cover over that one

00:44:57.620 black wall i bet like and we didn't change it until we sold the house but like um i'm just

00:45:06.260 like pitying whatever house painters or people have to paint over these like it's gonna be so

00:45:12.540 bad it's gonna be so bad and also like the black house is here it's so dour here many many 0.98

00:45:19.020 months of the year so you're like here i am in my gray sky and my black house yeah yeah but yeah no 0.95

00:45:28.860 you're totally right and i think you see it too buying a house decorating a house is really hard

00:45:35.040 like you have to know how big things should be like how space works how colors work like

00:45:42.700 picking a freaking paint color it's really hard yeah and so it makes sense that people often

00:45:49.900 go to something that they have seen in their their neighborhood or you know what i mean yeah like

00:45:56.220 yeah that replication makes sense to me yeah that there's that book filter world that the reporter

00:46:01.240 kyle chaco wrote that just like we are all because of algorithms sort of influenced by the same

00:46:08.780 things you know and the way that you can go to a coffee shop in brooklyn and also go to one in

00:46:15.300 somewhere in the midwest and they're going to look exactly the same you know right um and the air

00:46:19.680 space and all that sort of thing yeah um and i think it has us like wanting things that even

00:46:26.380 like open shelving melody was just bitching about open shelving like open shelving and like

00:46:33.580 rugged open shelving you know where it looks like you just like you just cut down the tree and and

00:46:40.860 ran it through the planer once and this stuff i wanted i know i wanted 10 years ago and i'm just

00:46:47.280 like i thank god i never had the money to actually do it because because why like

00:46:53.160 spend a lot of money like they would sell those at west elm for like 500 yeah and i'm sure that

00:47:00.220 one of the like woodworkers here on the island would be like i can give you that from my backyard

00:47:05.260 for like 50 bucks like if you can hang it yeah that if that yeah it's like a scrap piece of

00:47:10.900 lumber and that's how it starts it's like someone's kooky style looks cool right and then how do you

00:47:17.080 replicate it you have to you know it's like ripped jeans kind of yeah um yeah yeah but this question

00:47:23.640 too of like what it feels like i mean if there were people on this island who started going

00:47:32.320 through and being like hey we want to revive this thing hey this old building that used to be a

00:47:38.440 marina like what if we put cool art stuff in here um yeah there's going to be some edison bulbs but

00:47:45.040 Also, there's going to be some life in the town.

00:47:47.760 I think that, like, who benefits primarily from this stuff is always important to consider.

00:47:52.920 But also, there are so many small towns in America that don't have a resource center anymore.

00:47:58.940 And so I think there is often an appreciation.

00:48:02.880 You know, tourism is the new resource center for a lot of places.

00:48:07.280 And so if it's around a couple like this who are like, I want people to come to my town and love it the way that I do.

00:48:14.740 yeah i don't know yeah hard yeah the who benefits question though is is important i think because

00:48:20.800 like who benefits are are like people who own property in that area you know uh which leaves

00:48:27.860 out like a whole swath of people and if you remodel and it makes housing prices go up right

00:48:35.940 when something becomes more desirable who is no longer able to live there yeah i mean like bringing

00:48:42.320 it back to some of the home renovation shows i mean that was always like there's so much that's

00:48:47.140 that's going unsaid in a bunch of these shows and it was a thing i was thinking all the time

00:48:51.440 watching rehab addict like because it was always where she was renovating houses were in neighborhoods

00:48:59.140 that had seen better days you know and in outside of detroit or in the twin cities and you know she

00:49:05.760 was always claiming like i'm not just flipping houses you know but that's what she was doing

00:49:10.420 and like i'm not just flipping houses right like i am flipping houses it's flipping i'm like what

00:49:16.600 does it mean for those neighborhoods you know like certainly like those people deserve to live

00:49:21.620 in nice neighborhoods and like sometimes they were it was being done for for the people who

00:49:25.640 lived there but i always question and there's no room for an entertainment show to explore the

00:49:33.080 question of like does this mean we're going to start pricing out the people who actually live

00:49:38.320 in this neighborhood you know right what would happen if an hgtv show like actually grappled

00:49:43.700 with that question like is that possible can it be reconciled with the brand i don't know yeah

00:49:49.520 yeah or like let's let's have a show where they go in and they tear down houses and build

00:49:55.220 mixed income housing that'd be amazing so i i forgot i had to do my full disclosure at the

00:50:01.860 beginning of the show but better late i did a podcast for hgtv about small towns right and it

00:50:09.600 was about people who moved to small towns and it was produced by an independent podcast company

00:50:15.760 then that was contracted through hgtv and i was actually very impressed with how much they wanted

00:50:23.640 the show to grapple with some of like the realities like the hard realities yeah yeah of

00:50:33.600 what it means to move to a small town right what it means for the people who already live there

00:50:38.760 and what it means for the people who are moving there yeah yeah yeah so maybe it works in a

00:50:45.280 podcast granted they did not pick up the show for a second season yeah yeah i mean i i wonder the

00:50:52.460 same thing watching hometown which is like looks beautiful like that slow pace of life seems

00:50:59.240 appealing but like who feels welcome in this town you know i understand that like that town is

00:51:08.860 sort of a newish town that was built around like timber industry in the late 19th century and so

00:51:14.440 Like, it's not like former slaveholding properties that people are building on or renovating houses on.

00:51:23.800 But it's not that far from places where that was happening.

00:51:26.520 Well, and I feel like that's part of the reason that they got the show, right? 0.64

00:51:30.800 It's like, these people are great, very likable white people, but we can't grapple with that larger history. 0.57

00:51:38.440 So let's get it down that was built after the Civil War.

00:51:42.080 Right, right.

00:51:44.440 yeah yeah even though everywhere around it has this history yeah yeah like it's imbricated within

00:51:51.580 that yeah so so you get to live in a myth where that history doesn't exist yes yeah well and that

00:51:58.880 gets to you know this question again is i think those towns do feel a little bit like disneyland

00:52:04.140 but just a little like those corners where you really are deep in that hgtvized space

00:52:12.100 it doesn't feel like a real space

00:52:14.400 but it does feel

00:52:16.240 like I think for

00:52:17.480 I think people like to visit

00:52:19.040 yeah

00:52:19.720 also if

00:52:25.860 Ben and Aaron want to come do my house

00:52:28.200 like anytime

00:52:29.180 I like really

00:52:31.680 part of the joy of watching

00:52:34.160 this is the dream that

00:52:35.680 somehow they're going to

00:52:37.980 knock on my door and do

00:52:39.720 me next and there's going to be no question

00:52:41.800 And I'm not going to have to borrow any money on my house.

00:52:44.680 Yeah.

00:52:45.260 Nope.

00:52:45.880 And do you think Ben would like teach you how to woodwork a little bit?

00:52:48.760 I'd love it.

00:52:49.180 Just go to his workshop?

00:52:51.040 Yeah.

00:52:51.420 Yeah.

00:52:51.940 Yeah.

00:52:52.400 That's a dream.

00:52:53.340 Yeah.

00:52:53.760 Well, that is a perfect, perfect place to stop.

00:52:57.140 If people want to find more of you on the internet, work and they find you.

00:53:00.440 The best place these days is on Instagram.

00:53:03.020 I have like a really clunky handle.

00:53:06.160 It's broken bulb.

00:53:08.460 I love it.

00:53:09.280 I'm always, I always remember you.

00:53:10.860 Yeah.

00:53:11.080 it should be my name

00:53:13.040 but also the podcast

00:53:15.320 is called Classy

00:53:16.560 with Jonathan Menjivar 0.99

00:53:18.380 it's M-E-N-J-I-V-A-R 0.99

00:53:21.620 alright thank you so much

00:53:23.560 thank you

00:53:24.560 alright so today's AAA question is one that

00:53:27.360 so many of you relate to

00:53:29.040 how to save creative energy for fun

00:53:31.520 things when your job drains you

00:53:33.260 this part of the show is just for paid

00:53:35.540 subscribers so if you want to hear it

00:53:37.240 head over to culturestudypod.substack.com

00:53:39.820 and sign up

00:53:40.820 Thanks for listening to the Culture Study Podcast.

00:53:45.420 Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts because we have so many great episodes

00:53:50.420 in the works.

00:53:51.020 Like seriously, I'm so excited for our coming slate of episodes, and I promise you don't

00:53:55.140 want to miss any of them.

00:53:56.420 If you want to suggest a topic, ask a question about the culture that surrounds you, or submit

00:54:01.040 a question for our subscriber-only advice time segment, go to our Google form at tinyurl.com

00:54:07.440 slash culture study pod, or check the show notes for a link. If you want to support the show and

00:54:13.220 get bonus content, you can head to culture study pod dot sub stack.com. It's five bucks a month,

00:54:18.780 just like a coffee, $50 a year, and you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive advice time segment

00:54:25.260 that people seem to actually really like weekly discussion threads for each episode and a link

00:54:30.380 to a special Google form so that your questions go to the front of the line. The culture study

00:54:35.020 podcast is produced by me, Anne Helen Peterson, and Melody Rowell. Our music is by Poddington

00:54:40.300 Bear. You can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson, Melody at Melodias47, and the show at

00:54:46.700 Culture Study Pod.

Culture Study Podcast - July 31, 2024

How HGTV Shapes and Refines Our Taste

Episode Stats

Transcript