Culture Study Podcast - The Sephora Teen Freakout

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00:01:14.540 Okay. It is a phenomenon that's getting a lot of attention, that started getting a lot of

00:01:18.960 attention at the end of 2023 around holiday season, when folks were noticing elementary

00:01:25.500 aged girls going to Sephora, using up all the just try me's, and those are the little

00:01:31.200 tester products, and then kind of running free without their parents and having a lot

00:01:37.500 of knowledge about the products in the stores.

00:01:40.440 So they knew the brand names, they knew the price points, they knew what was for what.

00:01:44.940 Like, there are certain brands that are very popular with tween girls like Rare Beauty, which is from Selena Gomez, and Drunk Elephant, which isn't explicitly for kids, but a lot of kids are chasing after these products.

00:01:58.280 And so this was something that kind of was born out of social media and mainstream media caught on and now call these elementary-aged, mostly girls, Sephora teens or Sephora tweens.

00:02:11.120 this is the culture study podcast and i'm ann helen peterson and i'm elise hugh journalist

00:02:19.540 and podcaster we got so many questions about this i was kind of surprised and i think it's because

00:02:25.980 people simultaneously want to defend the right to like be in these public spaces and be trying

00:02:35.800 on makeup and then also are alarmed and the biggest thing and we're going to get to this

00:02:40.100 the biggest thing people are alarmed by is like where did tweens get this money and that's an

00:02:46.080 interesting question right um and again we're gonna get there but I think first I'd love to

00:02:51.480 ask you just like from your perspective both doing the reporting that you've done

00:02:56.040 on the beauty industry the global beauty industry and like how a lot of these phenomena have been

00:03:04.080 taking place or like the interest like younger girls interest in skincare has been happening

00:03:09.220 for a while now. So what do you see? Like you used to live in Seoul. Now you live in LA. Like

00:03:14.940 what do you see in terms of differences? Are there differences in your daughter's own experience

00:03:20.040 between those two places? Yeah. What I'm struck by is the sameness of the products that the kids

00:03:26.860 want. Like, and I remember interviewing some beauty industry founders too, who have found this

00:03:34.000 as well. That when we, growing up as millennials and going to the malls and being exposed to the

00:03:39.360 media that we were, which tended to be like 17 Magazine and YM and Cosmogirl, the products that

00:03:44.520 were advertised to us and that we were exposed to generally were the same as well, but they were

00:03:50.980 specific to our age group, right? So the things that we were using tended to be kid stuff, right?

00:03:57.440 We weren't trying to buy $78 Laneige or Amore Pacific products.

00:04:03.440 We were going to Bath and Body Works and getting Sunripe and Raspberry or Country Apple body

00:04:08.840 sprays and things.

00:04:09.780 So there tended to be kind of like an age stratification that was still happening when

00:04:14.260 we were kids that now those lines are all blurred.

00:04:16.640 There's no borders for that because of the algorithms and what they're feeding children

00:04:20.900 and teens.

00:04:22.120 Also, there's a kind of a speed to the trend culture.

00:04:24.840 I think that you've probably observed this as well.

00:04:26.800 Like it took a while for us to kind of see what the cool girls were wearing or the cool girls were doing in other places.

00:04:35.360 And then that kind of trickled down.

00:04:37.560 But we are seeing like kind of the death of subcultures.

00:04:41.700 I think that's been observed.

00:04:43.020 And there's kind of this mass sameness to what kids in New York and what kids in Austin and what kids in Omaha are all seeking out.

00:04:51.860 and it tends to be the same kinds of lip balm and the same kinds of cover-up and highlighter

00:05:00.140 and powders and things like that. I love that you just use the term cover-up because it's something

00:05:05.020 that we absolutely used to use when we were teens, but now the teens would never say cover-up.

00:05:10.320 Yeah, it's like BB cream. Yeah, it's concealer, it's highlighter, and it's BB cream. I'm sorry.

00:05:15.720 or like tinted sunscreen yes tinted moisturizer the point that you make about how there's not

00:05:23.580 this differentiation is such a good one because even though i you know i was like buying oxy pads

00:05:30.920 so bad for my particular skin um or like the saint ives apricot scrub that people i it's like

00:05:38.080 so familiar to all of us and also really bad for our skin for most people's skin uh there's like

00:05:44.520 if i went to the mall there was still like clinique was somewhat accessible right and it

00:05:49.400 was kind of marketed as like the cheaper maybe an entry point if you had some sort of means into

00:05:55.800 more sophisticated makeup but like i don't know um like l'oreal was like no that is for adults

00:06:03.900 like that is isabella rossellini's line yeah for adults and it was a very clear delineation that i

00:06:11.040 think has absolutely been eliminated yeah and and that trickle-down characteristic has is just gone

00:06:17.400 too right things going from major cities into smaller communities through extended relatives

00:06:22.860 or your neighbor who you looked up to because she was cooler because she was in seventh grade and

00:06:27.420 you were in fifth grade yeah our influences used to be far more local and now our influences are

00:06:33.180 all exactly the same and sephora is something that is uh accessible in a lot of different

00:06:39.380 like urban areas, certainly, but also midsize cities. Like we have one in Bellingham in the

00:06:44.460 mall. And if I were a teen in Bellingham, that is where I would go in the mall. Like there was

00:06:51.040 like, you could go to Target and you could go to Sephora. So I think that that kind of explains,

00:06:56.100 you know, and we'll get to this too, that it's also a very in-person experience to go to an

00:07:01.420 actual Sephora store. Absolutely. The just try me's are just so compelling. I know, right? Like

00:07:06.900 I used to try all of the perfumes, you know, like at the department store.

00:07:11.560 This is far superior to coming home smelling like CK1.

00:07:16.140 So we're going to start with our questions.

00:07:18.660 The first one is about the origins, and this one is from Amanda.

00:07:22.120 When did skincare routines become the domain for pre-tweens and why?

00:07:26.400 My nine-year-old goddaughter had a friend sleepover who brought more products with her

00:07:30.700 than I use on my middle-aged skin, including something called Brazilian Bum Bum Cream.

00:07:36.860 Don't nine-year-olds already have the butt skin that we want?

00:07:39.900 Is this the new diet culture?

00:07:41.600 And are these girls going to have wild hang-ups about their skin as they grow up?

00:07:46.340 Okay.

00:07:47.320 First, I would just want to say that, like, I had so many hang-ups about my skin growing up.

00:07:52.740 Being concerned about your skin is not a new thing.

00:07:55.540 I don't think it's a new thing.

00:07:56.940 I think they have the added burden of maybe worrying about wrinkles

00:08:01.400 because they are learning about anti-aging products and things earlier. There's the

00:08:08.280 mainstreaming of Botox or the idea of preventative Botox now in your 20s. So this is a trend that I

00:08:16.720 saw in the reporting for my book Flawless again and again, which was that once there was a

00:08:21.060 technological solution or some sort of innovation to correct a problem, then you had a solution

00:08:29.360 chasing the problem, right? The solution came first and then you realized, oh, well, maybe I

00:08:35.720 should be doing something to prevent wrinkles in my 20s. But for the Botox being available

00:08:41.200 to you in your 20s and being so accessible and cheap, you wouldn't have sought that out in the

00:08:46.140 first place. Yeah. I mean, and that's a tale as old as time. It's like, how do you create new

00:08:51.400 engines of consumerism as you identify new problems and then create the products that you

00:08:57.600 Exactly. And that gets a little bit at Amanda's question, which is, you know, when did this all

00:09:02.700 start happening? I think that I noticed it at the end of 2022. We really saw the mainstreaming of

00:09:10.380 it in 2023 with all the Get Ready With Me videos. That's when my own daughters who are in third and

00:09:15.380 fifth grade were starting to do their own like pretend Get Ready With Me videos at home. I was

00:09:20.580 like, what are you doing? Because they would pretend to be like, don't forget to subscribe

00:09:24.720 at the end of the video. That part is so bleak. It's happening. And that's when I learned about

00:09:33.400 this genre of videos, you know, and makeup videos are always kind of alluring and fun to watch. I

00:09:40.540 think for adults, it just, it exploded among six to 12 year olds. And now there's numbers now that

00:09:47.420 we're in 2024, there's numbers to back it up. Business and fashion found that American households

00:09:53.900 with six to 12-year-olds, so that's first to fifth graders, spent 27% more on skincare

00:10:00.820 in 2023 versus a year earlier. And that's rather alarming. That's a pretty significant jump.

00:10:10.120 It also comes, so it's not just the internet. It's also the brands capitalizing on the internet.

00:10:15.440 Yeah. So you have brands that say like, well, be sure not to use certain products like retinols

00:10:21.680 on your skin. They're not for young people. But they've also made their packaging and their

00:10:27.140 marketing very alluring for young people for their other products. That I see with brands

00:10:33.380 like Drunk Elephant and Glow Recipe and those watermelon dew drops, the kinds of products

00:10:39.060 that are kind of edible or fruity that you want to eat. Those tend to be very, you know,

00:10:44.620 the butters, bum bum cream. Those are just cute. You know, those are cute names. It's

00:10:49.640 packaging and it's easy for those to go viral yeah and if people haven't seen drunk elephant

00:10:55.920 packaging we can put some in the show notes like it very much it's appealing to a certain like

00:11:02.720 playful aesthetic yeah right it's like playing with different play-dohs but it's stuff that you

00:11:08.820 put on your face um so there is an element of play that's going on here that's not dissimilar

00:11:14.200 from playing with makeup either but I think that it makes it not only is it more expensive but it

00:11:20.920 also is creating these uh I don't know like neuroses almost about like I'm preparing myself

00:11:28.420 to have wrinkle-free skin and to me this also highlights just like how much beauty norms can

00:11:33.100 change over the course of a generation or two like we were tanning that's we were going to tanning

00:11:37.940 I still remember my little palm tree stickers that I would put on my hip just to prove that I

00:11:45.200 oh my god the playboy bunny that you put on your head is so I can't it's so messed up when you

00:11:52.100 think about it oh yeah so that was messed up and maybe this is messed up in a different way

00:11:58.040 sometimes I don't know how to talk about this without being alarmist because I want to both

00:12:03.260 situated historically and say like this is something that we have been grappling with

00:12:07.760 like these beauty ideals that are ever shifting and so elusive and impossible to obtain and thus

00:12:12.960 fuel consumerism like I want to normalize it but also be alarmed about it does that make sense I

00:12:19.700 think it's absolutely important to be talking about these things and to be talking about it

00:12:25.260 with our kids because just and Virginia Soul Smith talks about this really eloquently because

00:12:31.060 She talks about how just as we know that white parents raise less racist kids, when we talk to white kids about racism, that parents of thin kids or conventionally cute kids need to also make sure that they understand they have a kind of privilege in a lookist, in a fatphobic society.

00:12:52.720 And that we are part of kind of a larger constellation of culture where the trends or the ideal body that's acceptable changes over time.

00:13:04.360 Sometimes it's tan, sometimes it's pale, you know?

00:13:07.540 And so reminding our kids and kind of getting curious with them, I think, is really important.

00:13:12.100 Yeah, that like the ideals are not fixed.

00:13:14.400 They are arbitrary.

00:13:15.560 We decide on them.

00:13:16.500 So how can we trouble those ideals as well?

00:13:18.840 Right.

00:13:19.800 So our next question, this is also about where all this is coming from.

00:13:24.180 And this comes from Eliza.

00:13:26.320 How much of the youths at Sephora wave comes down to the fact that these kids have nowhere

00:13:31.680 else to go to just be together?

00:13:34.000 Classic teen hangouts, the mall, a diner, et cetera, are vanishing.

00:13:39.720 Is there just no other space to host this in-person connection and indulge in the performance

00:13:45.120 of adulthood that feels crucial to their development?

00:13:48.120 I think this is really, this is, there's something here, right? Like there, it is an incredibly fun space. Like think about the makeup artists who are there. In my experience at Sephora, you have all different types of people, all different types of genders, like who have great makeup and will help you with it. Like that's fun. And there is so much more to play with than the traditional makeup counter at the fancy department store that we had when we were kids. So what do you think of this theory?

00:14:17.240 I think there is something to this, too, and it really overlaps. This is where the Sephora tweens trend really overlaps with the debates about whether kids are getting outside enough and the free-range parenting conversations that are happening because our kids now are playing so much in front of Snapchat and, like, putting on Snapchat filters to dress up digitally or artificially.

00:14:44.320 And at Sephora, at least you're getting to do things with your hands, touch them and put them on your skin and have a tactile experience, which especially for kids who are so, in some cases, have their lives so controlled and programmed and have parents hovering over them more than maybe we did when we were growing up, that maybe this does represent a kind of freedom.

00:15:07.800 So I can see that. Also, I remember interviewing a South Korean researcher who specializes in kids using makeup because what they're observing in South Korea was exactly the same as what we're seeing in the United States, but just a few years ahead, which was younger and younger ages starting to wear makeup to school.

00:15:26.600 You know, it was getting more and more normal for second graders to all wear bright lips to school. And this was, what, four or five years ago when I was conducting interviews for my book. And I remember the South Korean researcher saying that kids, even as young as kindergarten and first grade, are beginning to go to cram schools just after the school day.

00:15:47.680 So you can substitute cram schools for like extracurricular activities for our kids in the U.S.

00:15:53.120 And the hours that you had programmed would extend late into the night or at least to bedtime, right?

00:15:59.860 And so playtime, just old-fashioned, playing with friends, riding bikes, playing soccer unsupervised, that's really dwindled in some cities, some communities.

00:16:10.560 And so a lot of kids in Korea were ending up playing on devices where you can dress

00:16:15.400 up and you can change your face and you can experiment and decorate your image, role

00:16:19.880 play, put on stickers, whatever, become animated.

00:16:23.320 And so what that researcher found was exactly the premise of this question that youth were

00:16:30.360 using makeup.

00:16:31.300 In this case, it was digital makeup as a form of play.

00:16:34.440 and you know obviously it subsequently benefits the beauty industry because it does then embed

00:16:40.300 and normalize grooming and then you go in to the store and actually get the products but this is

00:16:46.560 exactly where we have to ask kind of what the end point is and I asked the kid makeup researcher

00:16:54.620 is there an end point where is it at what age do you think that you know kids are gonna not want

00:17:00.720 to experiment in this way anymore. And he was like, yeah, well, you would have to abolish the

00:17:04.460 internet for them to not want to be trying out filters and things like that. But whether it

00:17:11.040 translates to the actual store, I think, is kind of an open question right now. And whether we

00:17:17.000 should stop it is another open question. And I think the whole focus of this podcast episode,

00:17:21.220 right? Because it is developmentally appropriate to be experimenting and trying things. It just

00:17:27.480 seems so insidious if we're spending so much money to try and experiment. And there seems to

00:17:34.460 be only a narrow way or a narrow way that kids want to look, a narrow set of features or a narrow

00:17:41.540 set of products to achieve a certain prescribed look. Yes. This is such a good point because I

00:17:47.860 think in my like ideal empathetic mind, I'm like, look at these kids trying on identities. It's

00:17:54.140 amazing when in practice, there is a pretty limited array of looks that are acceptable or

00:18:02.580 desirable. And I also think that probably there is some policing about like, like if you were a

00:18:10.760 straight boy, right, and you wanted to play around with this, like is Sephora a space where you can

00:18:15.920 do that? That's a good question. I hope so. Because most of the conversation around this

00:18:21.800 right now is about performing traditional femininity. Right. And then you get into

00:18:27.080 gender performance as well in the way that we police gender. You know, I think that some of

00:18:32.520 the reason we got so many questions is because people, as I alluded to earlier, don't know how

00:18:37.860 to feel about it. And these next two questions, which we're going to play back to back because

00:18:43.000 they're pretty meta. They're about like, they're like, why are we talking about this? Which I

00:18:48.860 think you know this is part of the reason that we're doing this podcast let's go ahead and hear

00:18:52.880 them now the first one is from hannah and melody is going to read it i remember so clearly going

00:18:58.300 to sephora as a middle schooler like when i was age 11 to 13 and experiencing it as an emporium

00:19:05.160 where there was just so much fun to be had i want to be sure to have grace for others experiencing

00:19:10.160 that are the sephora tweens these days different why are the reactions so strong right now

00:19:16.640 And then the second one is from Siobhan.

00:19:19.660 Why do Sephora teens particularly peeve me and my fellow elder millennials?

00:19:26.020 I see so many comments on Reels and TikToks begging the Sephora teens to take care of their skin barrier.

00:19:33.660 And I will say I have always loved skincare and face products.

00:19:39.340 Growing up, I used the Clean & Clear face wash.

00:19:43.020 I used their astringent.

00:19:45.020 I used to use the St. Ives peach scrub. I used basically every Neutrogena product.

00:19:52.100 I used to shop the aisles of CVS with very little restraint. And those products,

00:19:59.320 especially that scrub, wasn't doing my skin barrier any favors. So why does it bother us

00:20:06.920 so much now? Are we subconsciously annoyed that they have way more options and choices than we did?

00:20:13.760 yeah I love that last point that's like maybe we're mad because they're not just

00:20:20.320 because we missed it oxy oxy 10 on their faces and inflaming yeah like burning off our nose

00:20:26.880 yeah nose barriers nose skin yeah maybe they're learning the gospel of moisturizing way before

00:20:34.820 I did I thought you just needed to dry your skin off as much yeah they're learning about

00:20:39.040 moisturizing they're learning about sunscreen like i never have to remind my girlier daughters

00:20:44.220 to um put on sunscreen really yeah because because it's part of their skin care wow just like

00:20:51.760 well you wish i would have known that you know i was in the tanning tube i was in the pneumatic tube

00:20:57.340 but you had you had a little bunny on your to prove i had achieved something

00:21:03.620 achieved spending 13 dollars to get melanoma i later had to get a mole removed

00:21:11.320 same i've had so many moles removed okay but also i remember growing up my mom saying

00:21:19.020 oh you guys are so much better now using the going to the tanning booth but also using sunscreen

00:21:25.220 when i was growing up we put baby oil on ourselves and like laid on tinfoil so so if anything yeah

00:21:32.580 we should be happy about progress right we should just be like oh things are changing we are taking

00:21:36.980 better care of our skin or skin barrier and then but then how do we hold that yeah and the grace

00:21:44.140 for people playing which we've talked about alongside this understanding that like to be a

00:21:49.600 person in the world is to be constantly regimening all parts of your body right yeah we have to

00:21:55.860 remember and emphasize again and again with all the children in our lives in order to be good

00:22:00.940 ancestors, that all bodies are valuable bodies. All bodies are worthy bodies. And I think that

00:22:06.980 can get lost when they're learning. They often learn from society that fat or ugly is somehow

00:22:15.140 unacceptable. And that's exactly where we have to ask, why are you scared of that? Why is that

00:22:21.440 something that you don't want to be or that bullies use, terms that bullies use, and how

00:22:26.980 incredibly marginalizing that is. I try to emphasize with my kids, your body is an instrument,

00:22:34.340 not an ornament. This is something that I learned from an interview or I gathered from an interview

00:22:40.360 with a couple of sisters who are really activists in this space and model how important it is to

00:22:47.680 focus on what bodies are capable of doing and feeling. And we can do all of that. But I do

00:22:52.100 think it's a little bit tricky and misguided to expect that a nine-year-old is going to change

00:22:58.440 their behavior in the face of more knowledge of cultural and social forces. I think it's more

00:23:04.960 useful for all of us who are grown up and thinking about it and talking about it to imagine the kind

00:23:11.440 of world that we want our kids to grow up in. And I assume that we are all in agreement that we want

00:23:17.540 kids to grow up in a world in which their bodies are safe and worthy and have dignity. And if we

00:23:23.360 want that for our own kids, whether they are thin or fat or have smooth skin or unsmooth skin,

00:23:29.280 then we should want that for everybody and what it would take and what kind of conversations that

00:23:33.920 we need to have in our own families and with one another in order to get to that place. And so

00:23:39.220 I do not put the burden on my third grader to be like, maybe I should divest from beauty culture,

00:23:45.540 but i do put it on me you know that's the thing is i think like we can plant the seeds

00:23:50.460 like i was watching smurfs with my friend's kids the other day and i they're two boys and i was

00:23:57.820 like leo why do you think there's only one female smurf you know and he's like this is the sort of

00:24:06.100 thing that like my mom would like slip to me and i'd be like shut up mom whatever but like you have

00:24:10.920 to sometimes have that just get curious that in yeah and then and you know and like I think that

00:24:17.540 teens today are really having pretty profound conversations that we certainly did not have

00:24:23.740 about beauty norms right about gender norms about all these things and sometimes maybe those

00:24:30.740 conversations aren't happening when they're in third grade but maybe they will start to happen

00:24:35.460 when they're in seventh grade eighth grade ninth grade right yeah yeah you are just planting seeds

00:24:39.400 and you're creating kind of a framework. And in my family, inclusivity is one of our values. And

00:24:44.940 so there's a way that it aligns with our values to ask these questions like, wait, why do you

00:24:51.080 consider it bad to be fat? And then what is that inclusive? You know, how does that, how does that

00:24:56.120 align with our values? But okay. So the question, there was a question, I think, about whether

00:25:00.520 today's tweens, sorry, every time we start talking about our tanning pneumatic tubes, we digress.

00:25:06.300 are today's tweens these days different they have a lot more options yeah um they are spending

00:25:15.160 markedly more i've had that stat that i pulled out for y'all earlier um they're also being

00:25:21.020 directly marketed to as their own unique demographic which is new because it before

00:25:28.200 it was like kids you know like the lip smackers or just women you know and adults right and now

00:25:34.120 there's kind of a carve out specifically for tweens. Yeah. Because if I think about the

00:25:39.880 commercial, the only commercials that we got served as teens were for Oxytan and ClearCell

00:25:44.900 and Oxytan had Rebecca Gayheart. Do you remember her? It was like on the back of a motorcycle. I

00:25:51.800 mean, so aspirational in so many ways, but she was a teen. She was not a tween, right? Like this was

00:25:57.840 marketing to teens. And I think that you're right that like this idea that skincare starts for

00:26:03.220 third graders is like completely new. Yes. And that's despite the price tags of $78

00:26:10.420 for the whipped Lala retro cream. Yes. Okay. This is a great segue. So we are going to segue now

00:26:19.660 into our bonus section, the AAA, it's called Ask An Anything segment, where we're going to talk

00:26:24.440 about the money. Can you stick around and talk about that? I will be here. Awesome. Okay. This

00:26:29.280 part of the show is just for paid subscribers. So if you want to hear our discussion on giving

00:26:33.820 teenagers allowance, reminiscing on how we spent our allowance as teens, and offering up a basic

00:26:39.940 skincare routine for someone who's starting at zero, head to culturestudypod.substack.com and

00:26:45.960 sign up. Elise, thank you so much for being here. This is like an immaculate episode. Where can

00:26:52.380 people find you if they want to hear more from you? Thank you for having me. I have had so much

00:26:56.900 fun. If you want to hear about a lot of the trends we talked about, I wrote about them in my book

00:27:01.720 called Flawless. And you can find me and how to reach me all at EliseHugh, E-L-I-S-E-H-U.com.

00:27:08.980 Amazing. Thanks so much.

00:27:16.160 Thanks for listening to the Culture Study Podcast. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your

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00:27:36.940 the ideology like how did you get out all that sort of thing we're also still taking all of your

00:27:42.340 questions about romance novels for an episode with owners of an all romance bookstore and another for

00:27:48.060 an author who writes queer romance and melody really wants to figure out how to do episodes

00:27:52.760 on AI in the economy that are actually interesting and not in the weeds. So if you have questions or

00:27:57.780 guest host suggestions for those, head to the Google forum. Oh, and I want to do an episode

00:28:02.240 on Sydney Sweeney. So also those questions, please submit. If you want to suggest a topic,

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00:28:41.620 study podcast is produced by me ann helen peterson and melody rowell our music is by pottington bear

00:28:47.240 You can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson, Melody at Melodias47, and the show at Culture Study Pod.

Culture Study Podcast - June 12, 2024

The Sephora Teen Freakout

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