Culture Study Podcast - April 17, 2024


The Country Heart of Cowboy Carter


Episode Stats


Length

35 minutes

Words per minute

183.59

Word count

6,605

Sentence count

329

Harmful content

Misogyny

11

sentences flagged

Toxicity

2

sentences flagged

Hate speech

10

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Hey, everyone. It's Anne. Just a heads up to the last part of our conversation. This is a 17-minute
00:00:06.860 discussion about Beyonce's cover of Jolene and where we think Cowboy Carter will rank in her
00:00:10.920 discography and why Elamin thinks that Jolene is the only skip on the album. This is exclusive to
00:00:17.580 paid subscribers. So if you already know that you want to hear that, head to culturestudypod.substack.com
00:00:23.160 and subscribe. I also just want to say that if you can swing it, a yearly subscription is so
00:00:28.280 helpful for us as we try to figure out our budget and continue to plan out the show.
00:00:32.080 It's normally $50 for a year, but if you already subscribe to the Culture Study newsletter,
00:00:36.220 you can add the podcast for just $30 a year. Just throwing that out there. Okay, on with the show.
00:00:43.340 Beyonce shows up at the CMAs and she's performing with the chicks. To any reasonable and rational 0.98
00:00:50.180 person, you would think the stage is currently, you know, occupied by a lot of royalty. Perhaps
00:00:56.140 i should be rising to my feet perhaps i should be celebrating the presence of beyonce and the 0.52
00:01:00.840 presence of the chicks and the presence of this combination in front of me and what do the cma do
00:01:05.620 but not much honestly yeah we're at the cmas and like yeah the country music awards and they're
00:01:12.020 kind of like uh who is this lady why is she here i think there's a i should be fair to the cmas and
00:01:17.720 say like a couple of people were quite excited by beyonce's presence but you wouldn't say that
00:01:23.040 is a warm room for Beyonce and at this point she's already you know Beyonce with a capital B
00:01:29.180 um and so it feels pointed it feels um like they're trying to say there are people who do
00:01:36.280 this genre and belong in this genre and we're not really sure that you are one of them part of the
00:01:41.540 reaction had to do with the chick's presence right who are persona I'm doing the Latin plural here
00:01:51.140 non grata within the cma for many different reasons but most of all the just the like
00:01:58.340 just excised from country history for daring to say that they were ashamed of george bush
00:02:04.860 coming from texas right yeah yes and so part of it it's beyonce on stage but also having
00:02:12.000 the gumption to invite the chicks on stage that's right with her and when i was re-watching the 0.83
00:02:20.520 clip this morning i noticed how few cutaways there actually were it's the camera stays very
00:02:27.440 close yes they're like we don't we don't want to make this complicated by showing it like it takes
00:02:33.880 halfway through the performance before the first cutaway that i noticed to miranda lambert who's
00:02:39.560 like like this is the inverse of taylor swift doing her like awkward one person standing at
00:02:48.260 At every single performance. 0.79
00:02:49.500 At every single performance.
00:02:50.720 This is important for this discussion because there is sort of like an award show watching grammar you have to be familiar with in order to know how that performance was landing.
00:03:00.660 And when you see Beyonce and the amount of attention that the crowd is getting during that, like when any performer is up at the Grammys, even if you don't know who they are at all, there are cutaways to people just jamming and vibing.
00:03:12.020 There are dozens of cameras in the room prepared to capture the most excited person, and you just don't get that in that room.
00:03:20.880 You really think of the CMAs as like the most gatekeepy of country music shows, and then here were the people that are trying to keep out the gate on the stage, and the room is not having it.
00:03:38.080 I'm Anne Helen Peterson, and this is the Culture Study Podcast.
00:03:41.720 I'm Elamin Abdelmahmoud.
00:03:43.060 I am a fan of country music first and foremost, and I'm so excited to be here, pal.
00:03:47.280 What else do you do?
00:03:49.060 Well, professionally, I'm a country music listener.
00:03:52.340 But for a living, I host a podcast called Commotion for CBC, for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
00:04:02.180 So part of the reason I really wanted to have you on the show is because, like me, you are a fan of country music.
00:04:09.180 like me you're a fan of Beyonce and I think there are a lot of people who can situate this album
00:04:16.200 in a much more rigorous musicologist way but I want to have an interesting conversation about
00:04:23.520 this album as a country album and screwing around with genre and and the idea that seems to be all
00:04:31.060 over the place that this isn't a country album before we get into all of that that's like our
00:04:37.920 We have some established scaffolding.
00:04:40.780 Should we go to the questions that listeners have and allow them to unpack some of these corners for us?
00:04:46.260 I am so ready.
00:04:47.420 Let's do this.
00:04:48.140 Let's talk.
00:04:49.300 Talking about Beyonce at length is one of my favorite hobbies.
00:04:51.680 So let's do it.
00:04:52.580 You could do it forever.
00:04:53.880 Yeah, 100% you could.
00:04:55.120 Okay.
00:04:55.900 Our first question is from Kelsey.
00:04:59.600 This album feels academic to me, like it's a thesis on country music, much like Renaissance felt like a thesis on house music.
00:05:06.960 it's clear Beyonce did the research in the reading
00:05:09.640 though since I'm not as familiar with country music as a genre
00:05:12.680 I'm curious about the references and influences that can be heard on the album
00:05:16.740 especially as it seems like she is drawing from a few different eras of country music
00:05:20.960 so I totally agree I like I was listening to it today and I was like
00:05:26.780 does Beyonce create her own syllabus
00:05:30.640 does she collaborate with like musicologists to come up with the syllabus
00:05:35.360 us like how does she know everything to read and to know you know like because she's drawing on so
00:05:40.980 many different references and and thoughts like and she doesn't tell us like i want i want her to
00:05:46.720 have like a process blog but that's not that's not beyonce's style that's not how she operates uh i
00:05:53.100 love the idea of this record feeling like an academic record like a work that is like to be
00:05:59.340 mind to be engaged with in that way? Because Beyonce is largely a conceptual artist. She's
00:06:06.320 been a conceptual artist for maybe the last 12 years or so, since 2013, so when Self-Titled
00:06:12.640 came out. Halfway through her career, she sort of switches modes and becomes this largely
00:06:17.440 conceptual artist. The albums are not albums. They're sort of explorations of ideas. You get
00:06:23.900 Self-Titled, which is like different explorations of the nuances of womanhood in that particular
00:06:28.940 moment in her career um lemonade explores all these nuances of marriage you know but
00:06:33.660 then the two albums that people don't really talk about is like the gift which is the uh
00:06:37.860 the accompanying album of the lion king um i really i honestly really recently revisited it
00:06:43.680 it's like a really beautiful meditation on parenthood um i'm not gonna say i listened
00:06:48.200 to the lion king album because it's because i'm not out here trying to you know embarrass myself
00:06:53.020 like that um but it but it has like these really gorgeous uh gorgeous moments she did that album
00:06:58.540 with jay-z um everything is love but under the name the carters you know um again yeah we try
00:07:04.620 to forget about some of those moments um but she's now you know in this renaissance project and
00:07:10.700 to me the renaissance project is like it's like a project of repatriation it's a project of there
00:07:17.400 are musical ideas that have been divorced from their history and that is not going to sit well
00:07:22.680 with Beyonce. So Beyonce is out here. You can sort of imagine her being like, nope, this belongs in
00:07:28.460 my museum. Thank you. This belongs in my museum. Thank you. And she's just taking all these ideas
00:07:32.980 back. She does it for house and techno music, which has become like largely disembodied from
00:07:39.000 its black history. And then with a single album, she manages to sort of recreate that history or 0.93
00:07:45.940 sort of replace that history sort of upfront. And then she says, I'm making this country album.
00:07:51.400 and everybody's like, oh, here we go.
00:07:53.220 This is a big moment for country music.
00:07:55.900 I think it's a significant moment for country music
00:07:57.940 because this conversation has been ongoing
00:08:00.020 in the genre of country music before Beyonce arrived.
00:08:03.660 And that's important to note.
00:08:05.280 And then the album comes out.
00:08:07.140 And I think the album comes out
00:08:08.240 and we don't get a straightforward country music album.
00:08:12.060 There are plenty of songs where you're like,
00:08:13.560 well, I've heard plenty of country music.
00:08:15.580 This surely does not sound anything like this.
00:08:18.200 There's no talk about cold beer in my hand.
00:08:21.400 not one beer in my hand reference a bunch of horses though i gotta say more horses than you
00:08:27.160 think there would be there's so many horses um and and and i think like the larger argument that
00:08:31.480 she's making here is like you can i think you can read this album i think you can read cowboy
00:08:35.320 carter as like unsettling the sediment of american popular music it's sort of like uncover that the
00:08:41.680 very root of it all is black music that created what we think of as country music and she does
00:08:48.580 all of this musically she never does it lyrically she's really not interested in like spelling it
00:08:53.760 out for you it's like all the music sort of overlaying on top of each other having conversations
00:08:59.280 with each other the idea of you know a song that samples the beach boys um the idea of a song that
00:09:07.000 samples you know these boots are made for walking um same song right too it's the same song yeah
00:09:12.480 that's right like that's doing something interesting it's doing something very very
00:09:16.060 interesting you know um even even the very opening of the record you know um she sort of
00:09:21.460 tells us in american requiem there's a lot of talking going on in a style that is like she's
00:09:27.380 she's sampling with her voice for what it's worth by buffalo springfield which is a protest song
00:09:32.240 like this that's a protest song about genre and the history of genre and how genre got us to this
00:09:38.180 place and then segueing into blackbird exactly yeah exactly into a cover of blackbird that is
00:09:45.420 like it's interesting that it's a cover that is bringing forth a new generation of young black
00:09:50.740 women to also sing with her she's recalling the history of blackbird which paul mccartney has
00:09:56.360 talked about a billion times as this song that is about the little rock nine that is like about
00:10:02.600 um a history of civil rights in the south again like that song has been divorced from those
00:10:08.420 conversations i think most people think of blackbird and go a pretty song about a bird you
00:10:12.040 Yeah, they think about it, like, as the same as, like, Here Comes the Sun or something.
00:10:17.120 That's exactly right.
00:10:17.860 Yeah.
00:10:18.360 Which is, like, it's not part of the nature collection of the Beatles, actually.
00:10:22.380 It's a part of the, it's part of a deeper, a deeper and more meaningful, more nuanced history of the Beatles.
00:10:29.960 And for her to sort of say, this is a song that I will sort of feature these black women on, that in itself is a significant statement. 0.63
00:10:37.780 Beyonce knows how to talk a lot without talking. 1.00
00:10:40.820 Yeah. 1.00
00:10:40.900 She can create psychodrama. She can create conversations in your head. And that's her artistry is like making you think about two ideas by juxtaposing them next to each other while trying to make a record that is like semi-competitive. 1.00
00:10:55.140 That's trying to get on the charts and in fact end up, you know, going to number one. So that's that's part of what makes her, you know, the greatest living artist in popular music right now.
00:11:04.420 You know, I think that she does something that is really hard to pull off, which is to make a text that is, you can unpack it in so many different ways, right?
00:11:14.500 Like it rewards re-listening and like going very academic into all of the different footnotes and references and everything that she's sampling.
00:11:23.780 But it also works even if you don't do that, right?
00:11:27.840 Yeah.
00:11:28.140 And that's always a challenge.
00:11:29.180 Like I remember reading James Joyce in college and professors being like, oh my gosh, it's so incredible, right?
00:11:38.620 And like it does become incredible once you understand like this is referencing this to do with this piece of Irish history and all that sort of thing.
00:11:47.240 And I love coming to understand and appreciate the work in that way.
00:11:51.600 But I don't think that, and this is, I don't know, a controversial joystick. I don't think it works when you don't know those things. Right. And just like I think that sometimes like William Faulkner, like these things fall apart if you don't have the tools to read them. But I think with Beyonce, she's doing both things at once. And that's what makes her a popular genius. Like she's operating in both of these registers.
00:12:18.100 She's coming to you as a historian and an archivist who can say, here are all the tools you need to understand how we got to this musical moment.
00:12:26.760 You can do the thing that people do when they engage with poppies.
00:12:29.860 They can go like, this is fun and I want to dance. 0.88
00:12:32.560 Or you can go, this is history.
00:12:35.140 This is a library and I'm going to spend my time trying to figure out and decode all the connections and the ways that these ideas are engaging with each other.
00:12:42.840 And the fact that it works in both dimensions is not easy at all.
00:12:48.500 I say this as one of many people who have tried to write the vegetables into a popular story.
00:12:57.740 All artists, all writers, all creators try to do this.
00:13:01.060 Try to be like, I need you to understand this thing about this larger idea.
00:13:05.400 But also, it should be fun to read and engaging.
00:13:09.260 And so many times people are like, I'm just here to dance, buddy.
00:13:14.380 And Beyonce's like, if you're here to dance, that's cool.
00:13:16.500 Get on the dance floor.
00:13:17.480 But if you want to do some history, maybe spend five minutes looking into why I made this choice and not 100 other choices.
00:13:24.340 The other thing that I would recommend for anyone listening is to check out, there's an episode of Sam Sanders' podcast, Intuit, about the whiteness of country music.
00:13:35.760 And he has on Tressie McMillan Cotton, who is one of my favorite scholars and also a country music fan.
00:13:42.400 Yes.
00:13:43.520 And they talk about the history, the black history of country music, how country music was disarticulated, like hillbilly music was disarticulated from quote unquote race music.
00:13:55.480 And how like what we think of as contemporary country evolved from that decision.
00:14:01.900 And there's this great moment where Tressie points out that, like, the standards of country music today, like, how incredibly white, straight, and masculine it is.
00:14:13.880 Like, no other industry would people be like, that's chill, right?
00:14:18.780 And, in fact, it's getting worse.
00:14:20.640 Like, that's what's actually, like, incredible about country music is that, like, even with all the people pointing at all these problems, in any other industry, you'd have the industry go, like, oh, maybe we should evaluate ourselves.
00:14:29.480 We should have a reckoning, right?
00:14:31.060 We should have a reckoning.
00:14:33.760 There's a doctor.
00:14:34.780 There's a doctor. 1.00
00:14:35.640 She's not a doctor. 0.55
00:14:36.660 She is an academic. 0.57
00:14:37.660 Dr. Data Watson.
00:14:38.740 Love Dr. Data.
00:14:39.640 And what she does is sort of look at, you know, years and years and years of the data of country radio and country charts and who the country music industry is elevating.
00:14:49.760 And y'all, the diversity in country is getting worse.
00:14:53.580 Like that's – it's incredible to know that there's never been more diverse, you know, number of people making country music.
00:14:59.460 Yeah.
00:14:59.560 And there's been, you know, fewer and fewer opportunities for those people to get recognized.
00:15:04.720 And then into that whole mess comes Beyonce cratering in.
00:15:09.500 And she forces, I think, a conversation that's like on at least a slightly higher decibel level. 0.99
00:15:15.540 Yeah. There's a great review in Pitchfork by Julianne Escobar, Escobado.
00:15:22.560 Julianne Escobedo, yes.
00:15:23.280 where she points out like what Beyonce has done with this record is force an ongoing conversation
00:15:31.200 about what is country so even if you think this isn't country she has forced like she has wedged
00:15:38.220 this conversation into the national conversation and like that is power right like that is power
00:15:44.880 let's have a genre conversation for months like wow and it's with the very opening words of this
00:15:49.980 record right like nothing really ends for things to stay the same they have to change again like
00:15:54.280 she is again signaling of the idea of genre as something that has remained i mean like to me
00:16:01.500 this album is a protest album against the concept of genre and how the the idea of genre has become
00:16:08.500 you know like a microcosm of or corollary of racism in general the way that you know genre
00:16:15.240 operates is actually the same way that institutional racism operates the same mechanisms that keep
00:16:22.500 certain people confined to certain genres as opposed to other genres like and people maybe
00:16:27.600 don't think enough about genre right now because you know you kind of go like well i listen to this
00:16:31.620 genre and this genre this genre but like literally music is divided into this way right like your
00:16:36.640 radio stations on your dial are separated by genre like every sort of you know every way that you
00:16:41.800 engage with music is a little bit separated by genre. This is all a product of that racism that
00:16:47.640 you're talking about. The thing that you mentioned earlier, the division between race records and
00:16:52.440 hillbilly records, that's because of a man named Ralph Peer who, you know, went to the American
00:16:58.540 South and he was like, oh, I shall dub these people making hillbilly music. They're white
00:17:03.340 people because it'll be easier to sell to white audiences and then we'll sell race records to 0.98
00:17:07.660 black audiences and literally that is the birth of the modern genre um it is a product of capitalism
00:17:13.560 and racism coming together and i don't know a lot of people who are rooting for capitalism and racism
00:17:19.220 let alone a let alone a love child of those two forces but that's how we organize music and so
00:17:27.140 when beyonce makes this record and she has someone like linda martell um who again if you see the
00:17:34.260 named Linda Martell show on this album, you go, I don't know who that is. If you spend five seconds
00:17:38.600 looking it up, you'll realize that Linda Martell was the first black woman to play at the Grand
00:17:43.040 Opry. And then she was largely written out of history. We're in a bit of a moment of recognizing
00:17:47.940 Linda Martell and her contributions right now, which is great. But for a long, long time, we
00:17:53.040 didn't recognize what she gave to us. So for her to say, hey, genre is kind of a funny little
00:17:58.000 concept. It's a little silly, actually. Feels extra powerful, but also the kind of detail that 0.83
00:18:03.720 you can very easily miss because you're on your way to listening to spaghetti or on your way to
00:18:07.800 listen to Yaya. And you're like, let's go. I want to party. Beyonce, can I just get to my body
00:18:12.300 moving? Right. But she says it like it's right there. And it's not even like, oh, it's in the
00:18:17.380 liner notes or whatever. Like you need to listen to Linda Martel saying genre is a funny little
00:18:22.300 concept like, oh, maybe you should think again about what you're thinking about, whether this
00:18:28.360 is or isn't country. OK, so we have a question that explicitly calls this out that I think
00:18:32.540 will give you and I a little bit of a chance to talk about contemporary country and where this
00:18:37.900 fits. So this comes from Allison. I love Beyonce's new album, but why do a number of the songs not
00:18:47.580 feel country to me? I've been racking my brain as to what defines country and mostly come down to
00:18:53.900 I know it when I hear it. I realize she winks at this at the beginning of Spaghetti, but I would
00:18:59.400 love a musical analysis of what we generally equate with country music and what Beyonce does
00:19:05.000 in Cowboy Carter that breaks some of those expectations and how all that interplays with
00:19:10.340 race because I'm sure it does. I love that question. Yeah, such a good question. I was
00:19:16.760 listening to the reaction episode of Switched on Pop to this album and both of them, their reaction
00:19:24.900 was like this isn't country it's something more interesting and and i get that reaction and i
00:19:30.800 think we see a lot of that but i actually think this album sounds really country to me because
00:19:35.820 country is much more expansive than i think most people understand especially if they're not super
00:19:42.660 familiar with country like if you've only heard some dixie chicks some toby keith maybe some
00:19:50.080 tim mcgraw some garth brooks like 90s country and then maybe some like what i think of as like 0.61
00:19:56.400 contemporary hee-haw country which is like um what's his name who's on the voice who's my
00:20:01.860 blake shelton uh like that style and i'm not even talking about like alt country which is
00:20:08.000 super expansive in so many different directions like contemporary country top 40 country
00:20:14.800 often sounds like R&B, right?
00:20:18.540 Like there are so many different,
00:20:22.020 like there's trap music in country music right now.
00:20:24.440 There's rap in country music.
00:20:26.520 Yeah, there sure is.
00:20:27.740 But I would say two things.
00:20:28.660 One, the idea of what's country and what's not country
00:20:31.440 has been a central pillar of country music conversation
00:20:35.720 since time immemorial.
00:20:37.360 That is like a pure function of how we talk about country music.
00:20:41.760 Shania Twain wasn't considered country when she first came out
00:20:44.640 Because they were like, hey, these drums, they sound a lot like the guy from Def Leppard because guess what?
00:20:50.160 Produced by the same dude.
00:20:51.740 And so people were like, no, no, no.
00:20:53.160 I don't know what this is, but it sure can't qualify as country.
00:20:55.840 We're not going to allow this.
00:20:57.200 There is something about country music that is kind of regularly like a forest fire.
00:21:02.560 You know, we kind of like burn a little part and go like, no, this will not be allowed to be country music.
00:21:07.240 And then what grows there is something that is borrowing elements of country music in order to push the genre forward.
00:21:13.280 There's sort of a continual sort of renewal within country.
00:21:17.000 And then the other thing about it is that I think part of the thesis of this record is saying you have been lied to your whole life if you think that country music is this certain set of characteristics.
00:21:29.040 If you think that country music has these limitations, because the only times that country music has been allowed to expand is when it is financially, you know, profitable for giant record companies that control radio, that control, you know, which artists get promoted and which artists do not get promoted.
00:21:49.240 So when you listen to Morgan Wallen and you're listening to the snap drums on a Morgan Wallen record, you're like, these are explicitly hip hop snap drums.
00:21:58.460 They are directly borrowed from hip-hop.
00:22:01.760 For the last 10 years or so, 11 years or so, the cadences of how so many artists in country music sing have just been like little R&B runs on top of guitar licks.
00:22:12.200 Country music has been allowed to be expansive.
00:22:14.620 It's a matter of who's not allowed to be included in that expansion.
00:22:18.260 And I think, like, Beyonce is trying to say, if this genre will continue to sort of borrow from other genres in order to expand itself as a commercial enterprise, I think we need to get back to the artistic enterprise, which is to say it's also allowed to be expansive.
00:22:33.780 And that's just from a purely sort of functional point of view.
00:22:37.220 I think, like, I think Beyonce's trying to make an argument of saying, you've been lied to a little bit if you think, like, hey, country music to me is like Trisha Yearwood because it is.
00:22:45.960 And I love Trisha Yearwood and I write for her every day.
00:22:48.340 But country music is also allowed to be a sort of a wider definition of all these artists who are kind of challenging the sonic palette by saying, you know what, I'm going to borrow from all these ideas that exist in country music but also push it forward.
00:23:01.440 The most memorable example that I can think of of this is Kacey Musgrave's album Golden Hour.
00:23:07.420 Because Golden Hour is an album that is like, it's purely sort of genre bending, genre blending exercises.
00:23:15.160 I mean, she has songs on there that are like, what if country but like disco drums?
00:23:20.360 What would that sound like?
00:23:21.840 You know, what if country music but like actually we made it like really sad and folky in some parts,
00:23:27.120 But then also like immediately paired it with like what you recognize is like really sort of big pop music mechanics.
00:23:32.580 To me, like Beyonce is trying to say, I've been watching and you guys have not been really limiting who gets to call themselves country except for certain people.
00:23:42.080 And so I'm now sort of admitting myself into this canon as well.
00:23:45.600 Well, and here's the thing.
00:23:46.980 Country music is obsessed with itself.
00:23:49.520 And I mean that like it is so incredibly self-referential.
00:23:52.680 Right now, if you listen to Contemporary Country, you will hear songs that are about, like a song that is about George Strait, a song that is explicitly about Tim McGraw and Faith Hill's love for one another, right?
00:24:07.700 Correct.
00:24:08.360 A song that is about finding someone in a bar who is listening to a 90s country song.
00:24:15.260 And it reworks that country song as the song, right?
00:24:18.800 I think you're referring to Heads Carolina, Tales California.
00:24:21.260 Amazing song.
00:24:22.680 Incredible song. And it's also been like, which has been recently reworked to say like, oh, actually, like, she had me at Heads Carolina, which is to say, you know, like this guy's like, just shows up at a bar. And then she started singing the song, you know, for her karaoke song, and he fell in love with her. But he uses the chorus of the original song to say this, right?
00:24:43.420 Some referential is, you know, is country music's bread and butter.
00:24:46.620 So not only is Beyonce doing this with Cowboy Carter, right?
00:24:51.740 There are so many different ways that she is referencing country music, but she's also expanding the palette to be like, oh, I can do that too.
00:25:01.780 But also maybe you missed a couple people.
00:25:04.260 Like, isn't it interesting how your focus is?
00:25:07.560 It's interesting how you still didn't get included.
00:25:08.900 Exactly right.
00:25:09.840 Exactly.
00:25:10.180 And also songs like sounds that should have been like somewhat obvious to include, but then have not, you know, have not made it to the mainstream yet.
00:25:18.080 Like I think of the beginning of Tyrant, for example, and you hear that fiddle and then the fiddle gets a trap drum immediately.
00:25:24.940 And I'm like, OK, so we've just invented fiddle trap. Let's go.
00:25:27.560 I'm ready for many artists to explore the sound.
00:25:32.080 Riverdance, which is one of my favorite songs on this record, is just like taking old Irish, a riff of old Irish folk music.
00:25:39.340 Like, I mean, like, what if a house beat on this?
00:25:41.820 Then what?
00:25:42.480 You know?
00:25:43.320 And again, that's how a genre moves forward.
00:25:46.560 It sort of borrows from the moment to say, to recast itself as something new.
00:25:51.180 And in that way, that's about as country as you can get.
00:25:54.620 Trying to take something from the past and saying, this is how it speaks to right now.
00:25:59.900 I think country music is very discursive in that way.
00:26:02.640 And I think, like, a lot of other genres don't have that quality.
00:26:05.240 and i think i i really love beyonce's contribution to that dimension she also we should just for
00:26:12.220 people who are like i think most people know a lot of the the very obvious references but like
00:26:17.200 there's a moment where she does a bit of patsy klein's i fall to pieces which i just love
00:26:23.600 she does this duet with um miley cyrus who also very interesting country artist right like
00:26:31.280 and also has, like, a place in the country music lineage.
00:26:36.520 She's Dolly Parton's goddaughter.
00:26:39.360 She has a very famous cover of Jolene.
00:26:41.760 And then we haven't talked about yet.
00:26:43.100 I love that you just didn't mention she's the daughter of country royalty.
00:26:46.460 Yeah, she's also the daughter of country 90s royalty.
00:26:51.380 Yes. 0.55
00:26:51.880 And then there's the fact that she also has, like, the explicit, I don't know,
00:26:56.900 Like, the blessing of both Dolly Parton and Willie Nelson, who play prominently in the various interstitials.
00:27:05.760 And I love how she does, like, this play on, like, the crackly country music AM radio, which is Willie Nelson.
00:27:13.000 Yeah, with Willie Nelson as your host.
00:27:15.220 But even that, like, the way that it moves through that is, like, so interesting because you hear these snippets.
00:27:20.340 And you, again, those snippets can move past you pretty quickly.
00:27:23.920 You're like, I don't know what this interstitial is doing here.
00:27:25.960 But if you slow down to pay enough attention, like you got like blues legend Sunhouse followed by like, you know, Sister Rosetta Tharp, you know, followed by, you know, I think it was like Roy Hamilton that you hear in there.
00:27:37.040 You hear Chuck Berry.
00:27:38.000 Like, again, she's saying the history of American popular music that is being introduced to you by people like Willie Nelson rests on black people and the innovations of black people.
00:27:50.400 And I think, like, Willie Nelson as a choice is interesting to me because Willie Nelson is very old.
00:27:56.360 And I don't mean this, you know, in a dramatic way.
00:27:59.540 I literally mean he would have been alive.
00:28:02.720 Exactly right.
00:28:03.440 He would have been alive while these people were working. 0.51
00:28:05.180 He would have been alive during the segregation of black artists and white artists from one another.
00:28:11.020 I think having him as a link is a very explicit choice of, like, the people that you hold up now,
00:28:17.320 The people who are on your Mount Rushmore of country music now, they remember this history.
00:28:22.980 You should take their word for it if you're not going to take my word for it.
00:28:26.760 So it's like the ultimate, you know what, you're trying to gatekeep me.
00:28:30.980 I'm going to bring you the guy who actually built this entire house because his endorsement means everything in this moment.
00:28:37.760 So we talked a little bit about how – what's the lead single?
00:28:44.840 Texas Hold'em?
00:28:45.360 Yeah, how it went to the top of the charts, right?
00:28:48.260 And it's the first time for a black artist who isn't Tracy Chapman being covered by Luke Combs.
00:28:54.900 I think a black woman specifically.
00:28:57.200 Oh, yeah.
00:28:58.000 Darius Rucker has had some hits.
00:29:00.120 He's had a few hits here and there.
00:29:01.900 I'm just going to say that I think the mainstream country music uses Darius Rucker as like,
00:29:07.660 we can't be racist.
00:29:09.480 We got Hootie, right?
00:29:10.720 And there's a long history of country music being like, well, there can be one.
00:29:15.660 You get one per generation.
00:29:18.000 And, you know, for a while, Darius was that guy.
00:29:20.140 You know, I think they hide a little bit behind Cain Brown, for example.
00:29:23.960 You know, and for a little while, Jimmy Allen.
00:29:25.560 Before that, the long history of like everything that Charlie Pryde gave us.
00:29:29.880 And like Charlie Pryde, extraordinary career.
00:29:31.920 Country's black first superstar is a very well-earned moniker. 0.91
00:29:34.840 But for some time, country was like, well, there's one.
00:29:38.560 So why would we have to act on, you know, introducing another one?
00:29:41.820 There is sort of a complacency within the structures of country music there.
00:29:45.920 But, sorry, you were going to talk about Texas Hold'em.
00:29:48.000 I was going to ask you if you have heard Texas Hold'em on the radio because I listen to Canadian radio here on the border.
00:29:55.360 Nice.
00:29:56.600 Love this for me.
00:29:57.760 JR Country, 93.7, coming out of Vancouver.
00:30:03.060 I love it.
00:30:04.440 it is the my favorite country station i've ever listened to and i have listened to many
00:30:08.780 and because it it lacks most if not all of the ideological positioning that comes out of most
00:30:17.200 u.s country like i know that there's stuff still like i'm not trying to sure what is a signifier
00:30:26.560 of yes right but like they i don't know like there's just less of the like around here we do
00:30:32.920 this or what like they you know they will air um psa's about like restitution payments for
00:30:41.180 indigenous schools and they will advertise gay pride events which is something that you would
00:30:47.040 very rarely if ever see on it in a united states um i love i love learning this about you that you
00:30:53.360 listen to canadian country radio that's that's a that's a delight to me well you it's on the dial
00:30:58.580 Which is the best place to listen to country music is in your car, right?
00:31:02.560 Of course, 100%.
00:31:03.240 That's correct.
00:31:04.140 What you might not know, though, is that Canada has what we call CanCon regulations, which
00:31:08.820 means that radio stations have to, and I mean all radio stations, have to play a minimum
00:31:14.040 of 35% Canadian music.
00:31:16.160 So you might-
00:31:16.980 Oh, yes.
00:31:17.000 I get a lot of Canadian country.
00:31:18.680 I was going to say, you're being exposed to a lot of Canadian country music, but it's
00:31:21.540 not at all, you'd be like, I don't know what to refer into.
00:31:25.360 No, it's so good.
00:31:26.780 And it's not just Shania.
00:31:27.700 like it's like here's this new canadian artist it's so great oh yeah country is is is big here
00:31:33.820 um in the sense that we have a lot of people who create country and he's like it has its own little
00:31:38.820 ecosystem it's the best and what i was going to say is that when the album the single first came
00:31:44.000 out they played it and they said and i was like oh geez they they said text in your reactions
00:31:51.020 and i remember i was driving into town and i was like oh gosh we're gonna see what happens here
00:31:58.200 and apparently they they said 50 50 for and against and they read some i'm sure that there
00:32:04.160 was some racist stuff that came in that they opted not to say not to show but they just said
00:32:09.840 like some people are like i'm digging it i like it it sounds like some other country and then some
00:32:13.440 people are like i just don't know what i don't like about it and i'm like hmm do you want to
00:32:19.940 Maybe investigate that feeling a little bit more.
00:32:22.680 Because truly, Texas Hold'em is a soft pitch down the middle.
00:32:26.420 I mean, this is a song that is like, if you're not going to play this, then I don't know what you're going to play.
00:32:33.140 Because there's no reason for you not to play this.
00:32:36.220 It fits within everything that you do.
00:32:38.380 But even then, the choices that she's making in that song, which has two Canadian writers on it, which is incredible.
00:32:44.540 She also has Rhiannon Giddens on the banjo on that.
00:32:46.920 Rihanna Giddens, you know, one of the most respected artists in Americana at the moment.
00:32:51.200 And it's her, that's her on the banjo.
00:32:53.120 And like, it's such a delight if you know who Rihanna Giddens is to see that this is
00:32:58.720 the voice and the sound that Beyonce is choosing to play with.
00:33:01.660 It's great.
00:33:02.340 Yeah.
00:33:02.740 So have you heard it on the radio?
00:33:04.260 I have not heard it on the radio.
00:33:05.620 That's because I mostly listen to my own music.
00:33:07.460 I'm not going to lie to you.
00:33:08.160 I'm so sorry to country radio listeners.
00:33:11.280 When I'm out of the city, I tend to listen to the radio.
00:33:14.260 But when I'm in the city, I'm kind of I got a lot of playlist, pal, you know?
00:33:18.720 Yeah.
00:33:19.280 I mean, you're a much more sophisticated listener.
00:33:21.880 I go between the country music station and then the top 40, also from Vancouver radio station.
00:33:27.920 And also strong choices.
00:33:30.080 Strong choices being made.
00:33:31.600 I love this.
00:33:32.380 OK, so now we're going to have a whole conversation on Jolene, which will be exclusive to our paid subscribers.
00:33:37.620 So if you desperately need to hear our hot takes on whether or not Beyonce's cover of Jolene is a skip, head over to culturestudypod.substack.com.
00:33:46.460 So, Elamin, this was such a pleasurable, fantastic conversation, and I hope listeners also felt that way.
00:33:53.000 Oh my god, thank you for having me to talk about Beyonce at length, one of my favorite hobbies in the world.
00:33:58.140 And country.
00:33:59.280 And country. These are the two things I love.
00:34:01.380 You know, Beyonce, country music, combined together, and then we just get to talk as long as we want about it. That's amazing.
00:34:08.300 Where can people find more of you on the internet in their podcast feed if they want to?
00:34:14.000 If you must come find me.
00:34:16.860 No, please do.
00:34:18.220 I would like to be perceived.
00:34:19.660 I really like attention. 0.99
00:34:20.980 On Instagram, I'm at Elamin, E-L-A-M-I-N.
00:34:24.720 My show is called Commotion.
00:34:26.900 You can find Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud.
00:34:29.200 You can find it wherever you get your podcasts.
00:34:32.140 And on Twitter, I'm very sorry to still be tweeting.
00:34:35.040 I don't mean to be this way. 0.58
00:34:36.440 But unfortunately, while I'm deprogramming myself to do that, I'm on Twitter at Elamin88, E-L-A-M-I-N-8-8.
00:34:46.180 That's it.
00:34:46.620 That's me, buddy.
00:34:47.480 Amazing.
00:34:48.160 Thank you so much.
00:34:50.880 Thanks for listening to the Culture Study Podcast.
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00:35:45.640 The Culture Study Podcast is produced by me, Anne Helen Peterson, and Melody Rowell.
00:35:50.000 Our music is by Poddington Bear.
00:35:51.600 You can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson, Melody at Melodias47, and the show at Culture Study Pod.