00:03:23.780And you are a person who has encouraged me to Cold Plunge several times in the past.
00:03:29.620You are a person who has looked at Cold Plunge devices that go in your backyard online seriously,
00:03:38.080even though we live on the ocean cold ocean yes i that's all correct um i am a little more i would
00:03:49.500call myself a little more than cold plunge curious is probably how i would frame it right um yeah i've
00:03:54.620looked at the literature i've done the browsing i'm ashamed to say that i've like hovered my mouse
00:04:01.520over the more info button on like a $6,500 ceramic filtered cold plunge tub that we can't
00:04:11.240afford and should never have in our backyard, especially because like we have access, as
00:04:17.800you said, to abundant cold water in the form of an ocean.
00:04:24.160So yes, so I've been sort of had a little bit, I think.
00:04:28.200Like part of why I am happy to come and talk about this is because like I can both look at it from the standpoint of like the internet, which is the thing that I write about a lot and the sort of like the personalities and like the influencer style of that.
00:04:42.260But also like as a mark, like I am straight up, I've been targeted by the Instagram ads, by the podcast, the wellness sort of industrial complex, and I feel its presence and I feel like working on me.
00:04:58.200How would you rate my cold plunge that we did this past week?
00:05:03.460Well, you didn't get in because you had to hold the phone to get the audio all the way.
00:05:11.160That's a tactical mistake, though, because what you want is you want to get up to sort of like the neck, not just because it's like the hardcore thing to do, but also like it's just it's more it's helpful.
00:05:21.020Like you don't want the wind to cut across and like expose some of that flesh.
00:05:24.880Like it's it's a little it's almost like warmer in the water.
00:05:27.540Plus, after a little bit, it, like, numbs those senses so that, like, you know, you're not – you're actually sort of, like, you're feeling more and less at the same time.
00:17:52.520Like on a day when I managed to walk my ass into the ocean and sit in it for a few seconds, like that's, that's a, that's a win.
00:18:02.620That's something like you, you kind of can't take away.0.80
00:18:04.560Like I did, I did, we often say in our household, like after doing some exercise we didn't want to do or something, like we did the hard thing.
00:18:12.040And like, that's, that's a hard thing that you can just chalk off the list.
00:18:15.880And there's, there's something great about that.
00:18:19.180I mean, obviously, it feeds into the style of like, you must be productive every day,
00:18:22.940you must do so like, but I also genuinely think that like, it's not a bad thing to feel pride
00:18:29.300in in a hobby, right? It's like almost the exact opposite of like, the way that I feel after like
00:18:35.320scrolling TikTok, right? Which is like a thing that like, my body tells me I want to do. And
00:18:40.100then I feel like garbage after doing it. This is like a thing my body tells me I do not want to do
00:19:12.060and make it something that boutique studios
00:19:14.020charge upwards of $40 for. Okay. So first, I don't know who Wim Hof is. Do you? Yes. Wim Hof
00:19:20.840is a Dutch man who has kind of become like a motivational speaker-y type fellow. And he is
00:19:29.200known for doing kind of extreme things at cold temperatures. Like he climbs mountains barefoot
00:19:38.060or without a shirt on uh he plunges in like the arctic he holds the world record for a barefoot
00:19:45.020half marathon on ice and snow um and he is sort of like the person who is most associated with
00:19:52.980cold plunging but like from from way way back um well before it became a fad but he created this
00:19:57.800i mean that's the thing is that like the polar bear plunge has been like as far as i can remember
00:20:03.060everywhere yes like in my hometown like in you know big cities people doing on Coney Island
00:20:11.360it's also like a total like it's just a big practice lots of places where there are oceans
00:20:17.080and lakes like this is not this is something that has a long long long long history and we know that
00:20:23.000I think most people know that yes well the the Coney Island Polar Bear Club is is quite old
00:20:28.140from uh either late 1800s or oh 1903 i think was the first one it was led by this guy who was sort
00:20:36.640of like uh like the the 1903 version of like huberman or like you know an influencer like that
00:20:45.340who sort of had had some um maybe even like a joe rogan type um and he was also the inventor
00:20:51.080of a penis pump for male enhancement and it was you know this this all fits together right yes0.55
00:20:57.820this fits together because you know you mentioned Huberman I think many listeners0.91
00:21:03.500know who Huberman is but that's really key to the popularization don't you think
00:21:08.160yeah I mean it's so who is Huberman tell us Andrew Huberman is a um I believe he's a
00:21:14.940neuroscientist at Stanford and was a ran a lab at Stanford for a while still I think does
00:21:22.000And he does a lot of, of like neuroscience experiments with like the effects of, you know, daylight and circadian rhythms and, you know, stuff that sort of ties into like optimization culture.
00:21:36.340And he's the one who told you to tell me that like, when we travel internationally, that the first thing we should do is like go stare at the sun.
00:21:45.460yeah he's big into the i mean not it's not even internationally every day you're supposed to like
00:21:49.620wake up and the first thing you do is you're supposed to stare direct like like don't focus
00:21:54.040your eye your retinas on the on the sun but stare like as close sort of to it for um like at least
00:22:00.440five minutes in direct sunlight to like wake your body up um he's got a lot of stuff like that it's
00:22:05.740interesting so he has and he has a very popular podcast so in 2020 uh he started going on podcasts
00:22:12.200i think he went on rogan's he went on some of these other like tim ferris these sort of self-help
00:22:17.080people and or i mean rogan obviously branches and other things but popular podcasts and was such a
00:22:24.580popular guest he started his own and the andrew huberman podcast is essentially anywhere between
00:22:30.460like 90 minutes and three hours of him in a dark room just reading off stuff about studies like
00:22:38.840it's it's just it's like a science lectures and neuroscience lecture like two-thirds of the time
00:22:43.460other times he interviews a guest but it is ridiculously popular it's like the fifth most
00:22:48.960popular podcast in the land which is all just to say that this guy is like for better or worse
00:22:56.060he's just very influential um and he is a he is a plunge advocate and you know i think this is like
00:23:02.900a larger conversation in some ways but i think that like hit the popularity of his thinking
00:23:07.540and like biohacking more generally just this idea that you can optimize your body in all these
00:23:13.820different ways through attention to science and through attention to scientific studies and like
00:23:18.380be your best self why do you think it's so popular now i spoke to this summer i was reporting around
00:23:25.180for this and i spoke to the founder of of plunge which is like the highest end tub right they're
00:23:29.760like the six thousand dollar ones um and he's obviously really into this stuff but i was asking
00:23:35.260him like why do you think this is a thing now right like obviously the benefits aside or whatever
00:23:40.300why is this a thing and he said that like covid was a real like jump starter for this in a lot
00:23:48.180of complex ways right ways that some people you know some of your listeners might agree with and
00:23:52.740others that that you know maybe like they won't um but what what he said is basically like covid
00:23:59.140did two things, right? It revealed a importance on being healthy. A lot of people picked up
00:24:05.660habits during COVID that were unhealthy, whether it was, you know, coping through drinking or,
00:24:09.900or what have you, or it was just kind of like a shock to, you know, normal systems of like people
00:24:15.740spend a long time without going out to bars or things like that. And that there was an idea of
00:24:21.140focus on health and also change. And then there's sort of a reactionary element to all that, which
00:24:26.800is like a reaction against public health right and this idea of like you know again it gets all
00:24:32.800messy but there's people who are sort of like trying to take their health into their own hands
00:24:36.660right because they don't trust what other people are saying about it so there's two branches of
00:24:40.600of this tree two different camps but one of the big things that he was kind of pushing and that
00:24:46.600a lot of people in this are pushing is that that there is broadly culturally different understandings
00:24:53.000and influences on health and so like there are lots of plunge clubs there's like lots of like
00:24:58.540sort of like little plungy like festivals that people can go to where it's like this is a way
00:25:02.780to hang out this is a thing to do and like you know we don't necessarily subscribe to that right
00:25:10.340but like when we went plunging on the audio there like we went with our friends like it is like a
00:25:15.520social thing you can do and there's like an excitement about it and makes you feel really
00:25:20.660good and chatty so i do think that there is this like this is tied up in a lot of complex things
00:25:26.380especially like the internet part of it right and like the social influencers and all that but i
00:25:30.940think there is also broadly speaking new ways of socialization and new norms around you know like
00:25:38.360the traditional method of like going out to the bar and stuff like that yeah i think that there's
00:25:43.780like on one end there's people who are doing it because it feels kind of cool to in your body when
00:25:49.140you do it and also it's fun to do with other people and it's a mechanism for social gathering
00:25:53.800and we don't have a ton of those right so there's that end and then on the other end there's like
00:25:59.140people with the six thousand dollar tubs or paying for entrance into places where they can do these
00:26:04.520plunges right who authentically think of themselves as like better than other people because they do
00:26:11.100these plunges right because they this is part of how they have become a superior person or like an
00:26:16.920optimized person so that's just my my poles that i'm setting up here yeah part of the question
00:26:21.860that led into all this is and like we talked about like like wim hof for a second he his big thing is
00:26:28.480breathing exercises like these really deep breathing things that like get you into whatever
00:26:32.960and and they're controversial too because like people have passed out or like you know like had
00:26:37.600seizures doing them because they're so serious but they're supposed to like be kind of like
00:26:42.180transcendent right it's almost like having like a you know like a spiritual experience you know
00:26:47.000people talk about having on them again not for me to say but alongside the cold plunging is also
00:26:53.360this like this idea of like these deep breathing things like um and there are facilities like
00:26:57.900the guy who cuts my hair uh is like really into like he's a sober person living this sort of like
00:27:05.100active optimization lifestyle uh he's like an uh aesthetic or that's not the word he's
00:27:11.740aesthetic like the word like a monk like he like is very into like a simple straightforward life
00:27:20.360like that and he always tells me about this place and i don't know what it's called right now but
00:27:23.880it's like a essentially like a spa in san diego where he goes like every couple of months and
00:27:31.560it's all breathing all hot and cold so saunas and plunges and yoga and then massage and like
00:27:39.780the way that he describes it is like you know it sounds like oh man like we all get in this room
00:27:44.740we do these breathings and these chants and then we plunge or whatever it's like there's a way in
00:27:49.200which you can read that and go like that's weird um or that's you know whatever but it's also like
00:27:54.200it's not totally different from like cold plunging is part of this of the normal spa experience right
00:28:08.660So there's a luxury element to it, for sure.
00:28:10.820I would also say that that situation does not sound dissimilar from some religious gatherings.
00:28:16.140And that, I mean, that's part of this, too, when we're talking about like an opportunity
00:28:19.960for a social gathering that feels, that makes you feel something.
00:28:23.500That is oftentimes why people go to church.
00:28:26.040this question is another kind of bro-y question but also it's about plunge etiquette so I think
00:28:32.820this will be an interesting one for us this comes from Megan I'm curious as to why or how
00:28:38.220bro culture has quote-unquote taken over cold plunging for context I've been dipping
00:28:45.800all winter long in my nearby lake here in Vermont and when I first started more than four years ago
00:28:55.200it was just if I saw anyone it was small groups of women usually middle-aged or older it was a
00:29:01.960pretty quiet affair I'd say just within the last year pretty regularly I've been seeing large groups
00:29:09.880of bros by bros I mean sort of like cut white dudes in their 20s I was down there not too long
00:29:18.800ago at this popular spot and over 15 guys just charged into the water yelling like some sort of
00:29:27.860raid while my friend and I were peacefully sitting in the water. For me, the practice is
00:29:36.480confidence building. It's about mindfulness. It's a way to be in nature and quiet my mind.
00:29:43.440it seems to have some other purpose for this group. I think there's plenty of room for all
00:29:50.580of us. I don't want to be exclusionary. I'm just curious as to what's causing this cultural shift.
00:29:57.900First, I want to start with the fact that like, obviously, you heard us doing some
00:30:02.040whooping and charging in the audio for ours. But what is the etiquette around screaming?
00:30:09.240because another person wrote in about being at a spa that had a cold plunging thing but you weren't
00:30:14.300allowed to make noises when you got in because they were trying to like keep the peaceful
00:30:18.520environment at the at the spa so that may be a little different but like what are the rules
00:30:25.300i've gotten into the uh cold plunge tiktok algorithm unsurprisingly you sort of show
00:30:33.140your bona fides by how like calm and cool you can keep it you know like there are these guys
00:30:37.480who are um they're all like extremely chiseled you know like not like bodybuilders but just like
00:30:44.440lean sinewy dudes zero body fat yeah yeah um and they don't seem like like douchebags honestly
00:30:51.100like who knows right but like the like the way that they are doing it is more like they're just
00:30:55.180talking about like you know their practice and like i do this for two minutes every day before
00:30:59.420i go and like wake my kids up whatever anyway isn't there a guy that you showed me that like
00:31:03.380just films his plunge every day and he's like really popular yeah his name is jordan something
00:31:07.900and he's on uh he's on like day uh i mean as we record this he's on like day like 379 of doing an
00:31:18.880ice bath every day and he like every day he comes in in the winter he lives in canada he'll like
00:31:24.160find a different way to break uh the ice because he uses like a feet like a stock tub from like a
00:31:29.620farms you know supply place and it's just you know naturally frozen over so he'll like break
00:31:35.120the tub and then he'll say this is day whatever of me doing an ice bath every day and he gets in
00:31:40.300it and you just you know he's always wearing is like a stocking cap and he just you know like
00:31:44.840makes quiet noises he suppresses it uh and then he does like a motivational quote um he's very
00:31:51.100popular i think he's got over like two million followers on tiktok why why do people like
00:31:55.540watching that like why do you like watching it well i don't i don't know if i like it necessarily
00:32:00.280i mean it's interesting to see um like i mean i like the ritual i'll say like that's the that's
00:32:06.420sort of why i was like hovering you know my cursor or my mouse button or whatever over the um
00:32:11.720you know like what are the specs of this you know a back door tub because it's like the idea of like
00:32:17.700doing something every day like i really i like that i like the idea of aspirational routine so
00:32:23.300i think that there's something about that um in there i don't i usually never watch the parts of
00:32:28.720the video where he does like the motivational thing where he's like you know like whatever um
00:32:34.200anyway there's like the bona fides right like in terms of etiquette where it's like if you're
00:32:40.740one of those people who does it all the time you know it's like act like you've been there before
00:32:45.620right like you get in and you just and that's it and you keep it keep it chill um and i also think
00:32:51.660it gets it does get easier like if you do it with frequency your body's less shocked by it
00:32:56.520i think that it's just like anything right it just depends on the environment you're in
00:33:02.460like if you're in a spa environment right like yeah i mean it's probably best not to just like
00:33:09.160scream bloody murder right or like have you and five of your friends like cannonball into like
00:33:14.020the cold plunge tub in the you know the place where everyone's like listening to enya like
00:33:18.500like that's not that's just like not a chill thing to do but if you're like in the ocean with
00:33:25.260your friends and you know you guys are just like trying to have a fun experience together like
00:33:29.420yeah i don't think that's a that's a terrible thing in the situation of like we have like a
00:33:35.420small cove i personally a conflict avoidant person would go a little bit further away um
00:33:42.480But I also think like, it's, some of it is involuntary, right? Like your body's going to do what you're going to do if you're not used to that stuff. And if you're Anne Helen Peterson, you're going to scream at the top of your lungs and say Christ on the cross.
00:33:56.860I will say that when I get in, if I'm by myself, I'm muttering, but I'm not screaming, right? Because who are you screaming for? Some of this is performative. And I think that what she's seeing is in some ways these guys performing for one another or the same way that they would before, as she points out, running into battle. And that probably that energy will dissipate, right?
00:34:25.360yeah and i will say like as far as like groups of dudes doing things in a destructive way like
00:34:32.700a bunch of them cold plunging in you know a cove is like probably like the best thing you could
00:34:37.940ask a group of 20 something dudes to be doing um uh you know i'd much rather than be doing that
00:34:43.980than like 99 of other things that guys get together to do so um you know i don't know
00:34:50.780Go easy on the bros just there and then, you know, go hard on the bros everywhere else.
00:34:56.940So this next question is about cold plunging in wellness and like wellness trends overall.
00:35:04.580I'm fascinated by the uptick to interest in cold plunging.
00:35:07.980It's something that every algorithm seems insistent on me doing for wellness.
00:35:11.640And while I logically understand the supposed benefits, I just can't get into it.
00:35:16.080I've tried a cold shower routine before and it's miserable.
00:35:19.980What's the larger why behind the continued emergence of these wellness hacks?
00:35:24.780Does it always come back to trying to exert control over our lives when the universe is largely chaotic?
00:35:30.640Is it a replacement for spiritual practices that used to take place in religious communities?
00:35:34.920Is it tech bros seeing troubling economic trends and trying to optimize every part of their lives through individual behavior?
00:35:41.920Is it puritanical instincts wrapped in a new package to discourage us from ever doing anything that is comfortable and enjoyable?
00:35:49.100But maybe most importantly, why do we in modern society still believe that suffering is a requirement for self-improvement and self-actualization?
00:36:06.480That's like all of the guiding questions that can guide an essay.
00:36:10.360Yeah, my response to those questions is just going to be yes.
00:36:14.900Because like, wow, there's so much there.
00:36:17.200Some of these we've already addressed, right? We've talked about the religious component, the gathering component and how that's feeding something. We've talked about the COVID component as well and how that relates to like a general, both an individualization of health practices, like trying to figure out what works for me, but then also like trying to, I think I've seen a lot of this, like trying to make changes in oneself post COVID because of the frailty of the human condition and all those sorts of things.
00:36:44.740i'm interested we can start with at least the whole like everything is chaos but we can control
00:36:53.060this what do you think about that i think that's i think that's like dead on right i i think i
00:37:00.360think that's a huge part of it i also think it's like again like let's not undercount the endorphin
00:37:08.820boost and like the need that a lot of people have for that right like it's just that's i mean that's
00:37:15.100why people turn to all sorts of awful terrible things um just when life's hard when life feels
00:37:20.860chaotic right so that's that's that's a total thing um i wanted to like address though the
00:37:27.520there's a nugget in that question that's just like i just can't get into it like what's wrong
00:37:31.500with me it's like don't worry about that but i think that like this is sort of the tough part
00:37:36.920about i've been thinking a lot about this with just the internet in general is it forces you to
00:37:43.380see how so many people live right and like i think in a way that we were never supposed to
00:37:50.260you're like you're just like not supposed to be bombarded with like that much difference and i
00:37:55.140don't mean like you know diversity of thought or whatever like i just mean like there's just like
00:37:59.460there's a lot of people who live their lives in ways where you're like uh pass um and you just
00:38:03.740like have to be subjected to it and also like the way that the internet delivers that to you is like
00:38:08.760my different way of doing something my you know whatever is also virtuous in some way that's like
00:38:15.820how it's often presented there are plenty of people who live active healthy lives and never
00:38:21.460touch an endurance sport ever right and then there's other people for whom endurance sports
00:38:25.920give them sort of like their reason to you know to be and wake up in the morning and like there's
00:38:30.460nothing better than riding the high of, of an ultra marathon or whatever it is. Right. It's
00:38:35.360like, there's just a lot of ways to be in the world. And I think that like, like the plunge
00:38:39.580phenomenon is, um, I've seen it compared in places to the same kind of exercise or like wellness
00:38:47.660fads is like, you know, jazzercising or like, you know, using those like rubber bands that like,
00:38:53.180you know, went around your waist or whatever. Like, I think that there's a bit of that,
00:38:57.460that is just this, this time, this generation's like fad or way of being or way of feeling0.98